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DeLa
10-08-2007, 07:51 PM
What if all zones in the game were reworked to be Lv 1-10?  Expansions would add another 2 or 3 levels to the cap.  Make the time it takes to go from 1-70 now = going from 1-10 in the revamped world.Imagine 3,000+ quests, none of which were grey.  Hundreds of zones which you could visit and explore in a level appropriate way.  All players, new and veterans, being able to group with one another without mentoring.  Instead of sitting at the level cap with only a handful of level-appropriate zones to choose from, waiting for the next expasion for new content, you could be exploring places you overlooked or only briefly explored.  When new people joined your guild, regardless of level, they could work on the same content as the veteran members.Not that I would wish this on EQ2, but just wanted to share a brainstorm for content management which helps keeps players together.  I've seen so many folks who are casual players leave the game or a guild because even with mentoring they just never get to all the 'cool' content that the veteran players are doing.  Trying to find a way to bring everyone together, regardless of casual/hardcore and make more content available to the end-game crowd as well, hence making all zones/quests level appropriate to them.  Seems a shame that all the energy that went into zones and quests from Lv 1-60 are to some extent skipped and never experienced by many players.  Why not make all that invested development time pay off persistently for the *entire* playerbase?  Don't ask me how itemization would work, raid progression, etc, hehe. Anyhoo, just a few wrenches to throw in your brain.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

UlteriorModem
10-09-2007, 09:52 AM
You could always roll a new charecter, race, class, alignment... Just a thought.

interstellarmatter
10-09-2007, 11:24 AM
<p>Probably wouldn't work on a level base game.  When you have a game where your skill is based on your level, people want to see progression.  DDO had a level cap of 10 at first (I think that it was 10).  It did ok.  But to have any sort of progression, the people at level 10 were much more powerful than those at level 1.  In the end, the 10 levels still segregated the players.</p><p>What you probably want is a skill based game instead of it being level based.  Eg, Ultima Online.</p>

Jesdyr
10-09-2007, 11:36 AM
<cite>interstellarmatter wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Probably wouldn't work on a level base game.  When you have a game where your skill is based on your level, people want to see progression.  DDO had a level cap of 10 at first (I think that it was 10).  It did ok.  But to have any sort of progression, the people at level 10 were much more powerful than those at level 1.  In the end, the 10 levels still segregated the players.</p><p>What you probably want is a skill based game instead of it being level based.  Eg, Ultima Online.</p></blockquote>The thing that amuses me is I still think the "older versions" (pre trammel thingy) of UO was the best mmog ever and there was almost no content. UO was a great little sandbox. Personally I hate level/XP based systems. I always like the By Use systems, but most people seem to like being able to instantly tell how "much better" or stronger they are than someone else.Anyway .. people like high lnumbers next to their names .. the higher the number the better .. want the level cap to be 9999? I am sure someone would love it just to see all those digits next to their name.

interstellarmatter
10-09-2007, 11:50 AM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote>Anyway .. people like high lnumbers next to their names .. the higher the number the better .. want the level cap to be 9999? I am sure someone would love it just to see all those digits next to their name. </blockquote><p>It's not the numbers.  It's the perception.  People want to feel powerful.  Afterall, if you wanted feel ordinary, you just have to step outside your house.  One of the easiest ways developers can fulfill this needs is with high numbers hence the level base system.  Making people feel powerful with a skill base system is much more difficult.</p><p>Ultima Online did it but it revolved around a PvP system.  PvE was horrible in UO.  I'd go kite dragons just up my skills to fight the gankers.  </p><p>So to make a game built around PvE and have progression, the level base system is the easiest way to go.  </p>

Rijacki
10-09-2007, 12:06 PM
Level based games, like most MMOs, is much easier to balance and add content than skills-based, like SWG before NGE. It's also easier to add content to a level-based game (especially one that's PvE). While being able to group with any one and getting credit/experience for anything anywhere does have its appeal (it was one of the cool things about pre-NGE SWG early on), it too gets boring when you're killing your thousandth womprat because nothing else has been added. In PvP, it does work better, kinda (still a PITA to balance), because PvP involves more player skill than PvE. Disclaimer: PvP is a specialised type of skill that requires a certain mindset, not that it's "better" than PvE skills or that PvE player skill at PvE isn't needed or a PvE player can't be skilled or an unskilled PvEer is as good as one who is. Just the skills are different and in PvP that player skill is more required. (I only play PvE and suck at PvP, cause I don't have -that- skill.)

Jesdyr
10-09-2007, 12:32 PM
<cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote> (I only play PvE and suck at PvP, cause I don't have -that- skill.)</blockquote>Actually .. lots of people suck at PvP .. This is why they twink and gang up on people. When confronted in a fair fight a lot of these great PvPers fall fairly quick. At least this has been my experience with them in just about every MMOG I have played that allowed for PvP. Some of the self appointed "best" PvPers that I remember in UO were actually really bad. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Kizee
10-09-2007, 12:49 PM
Ahhhhh UO! The memories! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />I wish they would make a updated graphics version with a pre trammel ruleset. Now THAT would be a great game!

Spyderbite
10-09-2007, 01:05 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Some of the self appointed "best" PvPers that I remember in UO were actually really bad. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /></blockquote>I resemble that remark! XD

interstellarmatter
10-09-2007, 01:21 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ahhhhh UO! The memories! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />I wish they would make a updated graphics version with a pre trammel ruleset. Now THAT would be a great game!</blockquote><p>Yea, but I think your memory is blurred by the first MMO syndrome.  Here is what I remember UO,</p><p>LagHacksLagServer downtimeLagNPC respawn time being extremely slow..till one day they raised it..just happened that I was in the middle of the dungeon when every creature respawned at the same time.LagLagRecall stones which made catching gankers very fustratingLagWombats..nuff saidAccident loss of reputation because accidently hitting your friend in combat was too easyLag</p><p>Did I mention lag?  There were whole afternoons that I couldn't play because I would lag but the creatures wouldn't..nothing was more fustrating to get over a lag spike to find yourself dead.</p><p>Otherwise it was a pretty good game.</p>

Kizee
10-09-2007, 01:44 PM
<cite>interstellarmatter wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ahhhhh UO! The memories! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />I wish they would make a updated graphics version with a pre trammel ruleset. Now THAT would be a great game!</blockquote><p>Yea, but I think your memory is blurred by the first MMO syndrome.  Here is what I remember UO,</p><p>LagHacksLagServer downtimeLagNPC respawn time being extremely slow..till one day they raised it..just happened that I was in the middle of the dungeon when every creature respawned at the same time.LagLagRecall stones which made catching gankers very fustratingLagWombats..nuff saidAccident loss of reputation because accidently hitting your friend in combat was too easyLag</p><p>Did I mention lag?  There were whole afternoons that I couldn't play because I would lag but the creatures wouldn't..nothing was more fustrating to get over a lag spike to find yourself dead.</p><p>Otherwise it was a pretty good game.</p></blockquote>Yeah the lag was pretty frustrating because I would always come back dead because I was a dreadloard. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> When they put in the stat loss it just made those lag spikes even more costly so thats when I quit game.I don't mind dying to another player but dying when you cant fight back just sucked.

DeLa
10-09-2007, 04:00 PM
So from reading the above replies, I'm wondering.....How do you build a sense of progression and personal distinction <i><b>without</b></i> separating new players from veteran players <i><b>and</b></i> making all zones use-able by all players?

interstellarmatter
10-09-2007, 04:10 PM
<cite>DeLang wrote:</cite><blockquote>So from reading the above replies, I'm wondering.....How do you build a sense of progression and personal distinction <i><b>without</b></i> separating new players from veteran players <i><b>and</b></i> making all zones use-able by all players?</blockquote><p>If you can answer it, you'll probably be able to design the next big MMO.  </p>

Norrsken
10-09-2007, 04:22 PM
<cite>interstellarmatter wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>DeLang wrote:</cite><blockquote>So from reading the above replies, I'm wondering.....How do you build a sense of progression and personal distinction <i><b>without</b></i> separating new players from veteran players <i><b>and</b></i> making all zones use-able by all players?</blockquote><p>If you can answer it, you'll probably be able to design the next big MMO.  </p></blockquote>I've actually been thinking <i>a lot</i> about it, and Im gonna try to make a showcase pvpish combat system to try some ideas out once I get some time. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

StormCinder
10-09-2007, 05:05 PM
<cite>DeLang wrote:</cite><blockquote>So from reading the above replies, I'm wondering.....How do you build a sense of progression and personal distinction <i><b>without</b></i> separating new players from veteran players <i><b>and</b></i> making all zones use-able by all players?</blockquote><p>I think something more along the lines of the skill-based system.  However, in order to maintain balance I would also implement a type of skill degradation.  So it's not simply a matter of driving skills up and they stay.  They need to be maintained or  they start to drop through disuse.   Power players are rewarded by keeping their skills up through longer play times.   Casual players are slightly penalized because their skills will tend to be lower.  However, that just means that content does not need to be focused on high-end toons.  The number of maxed-out players will be a lower percentage than a game that provides a one-way increase of skill/level.  </p><p>A good single-player game that implemented skill-based progression was Wizardry 8, though it too lacked skill degradation.  I'm not sure I know of any game that has implemented such a system.  Of course it would be difficult to implement, manage and balance but that's what devs get paid the big bucks to figure out.</p><p>SC</p>

Norrsken
10-09-2007, 05:09 PM
<cite>StormCinder wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>DeLang wrote:</cite><blockquote>So from reading the above replies, I'm wondering.....How do you build a sense of progression and personal distinction <i><b>without</b></i> separating new players from veteran players <i><b>and</b></i> making all zones use-able by all players?</blockquote><p>I think something more along the lines of the skill-based system.  However, in order to maintain balance I would also implement a type of skill degradation.  So it's not simply a matter of driving skills up and they stay.  They need to be maintained or  they start to drop through disuse.   Power players are rewarded by keeping their skills up through longer play times.   Casual players are slightly penalized because their skills will tend to be lower.  However, that just means that content does not need to be focused on high-end toons.  The number of maxed-out players will be a lower percentage than a game that provides a one-way increase of skill/level.  </p><p>A good single-player game that implemented skill-based progression was Wizardry 8, though it too lacked skill degradation.  I'm not sure I know of any game that has implemented such a system.  Of course it would be difficult to implement, manage and balance but that's what devs get paid the big bucks to figure out.</p><p>SC</p></blockquote>You could have faster degradation the higher the skills are. that way, being a casual player wouldnt hurt too much, since your skills wouldnt go down very fast. however, as a hardcore grindfreak, you'd need to play lots to keep your skills up. Im not overly fond of such a system either, since grinds always were, and always will be boring no matter what form they take.

DeLa
10-10-2007, 01:48 PM
Interesting thoughts.  Thank you both for sharing.  Time to ponder some more.  <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />