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Xiziz
08-31-2007, 11:21 AM
Love the class . But we still need work. Second to last in DPS only one worse then us is Paladin. Were Dead last in Hate gain. Our life taps work quite nice but its a dead point compared to Paly who heals himself and others.  please dont flame this its just a general observation. I raid frequently and have parsed and run the numbers on all these points. Just make us a functioning Viable option in end game content.

yibiumien
08-31-2007, 12:15 PM
Not many uses for an SK in a Raid, however we are no where near the bottum of the dps stick.  You should be parsing behind all the regular dps, but above all the bards, guards, enchanters, healers, pallies and others.  If you are comparibly equipped of course.

Hugsnkissums
08-31-2007, 12:26 PM
<p>I feel your pain when it comes to parsing low in raids. Unfortuneately though, I'd say were working as advertised. SK's are a very flexible class, we solo well, we duo and trio very well, and even fit into a normal group set up well. Raiding however is a whole other story. There isn't anything we bring to the table that other classes don't already do better. I think we give up specialization for flexibility and though it sucks for us in raids, ther isn't any other fighter who can match us in a solo game...at least PvE. </p><p>If you want to raid and parse well, then I'd suggest roll another toon like a caster or a scout. That's all their classes are made for so if they don't do well, something's wrong. Us SK's though aren't made like that and if it wasn't for their ability to duo or trio well, I may have deleted him a long time ago. All in all, I have to say I like my SK the way he is and I can accept that unless I have a friend in a raid who can get me in, I'll pretty much get passed over for another "more useful" class.   </p>

Talonmare
08-31-2007, 12:27 PM
<p>Someone elsewhere had an idea I agree with.  We have a decent amount of debuffs, lets make them raid useful for our niche.  We can already hit Mitigation, Wisdom, Strength, lets build on that idea with our current spells and just crank the volume up to 11.  I wouldn't turn down increases to hate either, but I know I will never main tank a raid (and can generally hold group aggro fine) so its not number one on my list.  </p>

Coica
08-31-2007, 02:19 PM
 Don't know where you get the "dead last in hate gain" from. but I would have to say that is incorrect.

Xiziz
08-31-2007, 03:01 PM
Zerk and Guard hold aggro better then Paly , Paly amends puts SK in last place . The Cloth tanks hold and rip better due to the high DPS.

CHIMPNOODLE.
08-31-2007, 03:11 PM
<p>Biased or not, I already feel we bring more than enough to any raid. With the coming raid-wide buff, and removal of normalization....yet another boost is coming. With the possible addition of the 2 hit absorption if under target is under 50% health Intercept....yet another boost for Plate tank off-tanks is in the works. It's a slippery slope. Too many more "fixes" and no one will want anything other than an SK, except for speciality fights (hmm.... <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />  ). 'Balancing' can then becomre a painful experience. We're already seeing that in mild form with the removal of the STR component from one of our buffs. </p><p>Our Hate is strong, we have a few buffs that really pump up raid DPS depending on your raid force make-up (Sacrilige, Deathmarch, Despoil and to a hugely lesser degree...Agony), we have the best snap aggro of all tanks already IMO (Deathmarch, Pestillent Touch), we have the single best save your butt ability as well IMO (Divine Aura), we have incredible survivability and strong aggro on multi-mobs (Despoil, Tap, Blessing, all lifetaps, Deathmarch, DA, etc.. etc.. etc..discounting the availablity of god abilities on top), we have fairly decent DPS as well...not to mention second tank extras like hate and healing from Blessing to another, possible double hit intercepts for struggling MTs coming, 50 Meter snap aggro with group short duration all  effect immunities and group cast boost (dps, healers, yourself all benefit in a big way), FD for another or ourselves in a pinch, group tap procs etc. </p><p>The class is strong. I'll take a few extra goodies anytime, but we are not lacking seriously in any department already. Possibly a few more avoidance type goodies would be nice? Still not a be-all end-all deal though with the way contested and uncontested avoid mechanics work now. I guess what would make me happiest would be another DA style dammage absorption ability. It would need to be a very short duration/long recast one I would think though (to avoid a huge non-SK tank community out-cry...and subsequent nerf bat beating lol).</p><p>PS.....Hate to say it, but Warrior aggro doesn't hold a candle to Paladin Aggro control with a strong Amends target btw</p><p>PPS.....Shhh, don't tell anyone I complimented Pallies.</p>

melaine_dvarvensplitter
08-31-2007, 03:54 PM
<cite>CHIMPNOODLE. wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Biased or not, I already feel we bring more than enough to any raid. With the coming raid-wide buff, and removal of normalization....yet another boost is coming. With the possible addition of the 2 hit absorption if under target is under 50% health Intercept....yet another boost for Plate tank off-tanks is in the works. It's a slippery slope. Too many more "fixes" and no one will want anything other than an SK, except for speciality fights (hmm.... <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />  ). We're already seeing that in mild form with the removal of the STR component from one of our buffs. </p><p>Our Hate is strong, we have a few buffs that really pump up raid DPS depending on your raid force make-up (Sacrilige, Deathmarch, Despoil and to a hugely lesser degree...Agony), we have the best snap aggro of all tanks already IMO (Deathmarch, Pestillent Touch), we have the single best save your butt ability as well IMO (Divine Aura), we have incredible survivability and strong aggro on multi-mobs (Despoil, Tap, Blessing, all lifetaps, Deathmarch, DA, etc.. etc.. etc..discounting the availablity of god abilities on top), we have fairly decent DPS as well...not to mention second tank extras like hate and healing from Blessing to another, possible double hit intercepts for struggling MTs coming, 50 Meter snap aggro with group short duration all  effect immunities and group cast boost (dps, healers, yourself all benefit in a big way), FD for another or ourselves in a pinch, group tap procs etc. </p><p>The class is strong. I'll take a few extra goodies anytime, but we are not lacking seriously in any department already. Possibly a few more avoidance type goodies would be nice? Still not a be-all end-all deal though with the way contested and uncontested avoid mechanics work now. I guess what would make me happiest would be another DA style dammage absorption ability. It would need to be a very short duration/long recast one I would think though (to avoid a huge non-SK tank community out-cry...and subsequent nerf bat beating lol).</p><p>PS.....Hate to say it, but Warrior aggro doesn't hold a candle to Paladin Aggro control with a strong Amends target btw</p><p>PPS.....Shhh, don't tell anyone I complimented Pallies.</p></blockquote>HAHAHA !!! .... Chimp and all my respect left when ya gave them tree hugging pallies props <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Chimp said it well.

CHIMPNOODLE.
08-31-2007, 04:27 PM
<cite>melaine_dvarvensplitter wrote:</cite> <blockquote>HAHAHA !!! .... Chimp and all my respect left when ya gave them tree hugging pallies props <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15">Chimp said it well. </blockquote><p>Ya, just had to quote it didn't you? Now I can't go back and change it. I hadn't had my coffee yet. lol</p><p>...and SK AOE aggro > Guard AOE aggro....and fairly comparable to a Zerks (dependent to a degree on mob resistances, and fight duration). Guard single target aggro is generally stronger than an SKs, though Brawlers take the cake there (if avoidance tanking ever gets a "fix"...who knows what will happen). Brawlers AOE aggro < all Platies at the moment.</p>

rabid.pooh
08-31-2007, 05:10 PM
<p>Pallys get the the buy when it comes to hate, it's a lazy mans hate gain :p.  But they're only as good as who they have their amends on pretty much.</p><p> When you compare hate you have to compare specs, are you complaining about hate gain when you've gone down the reaver/debuff trees?  What are you doing to take that hate?  how are you spec'd?  I tell you one thing a guard thats not spec'd for hate sucks, since they're only task is tanking that's what they spec for.  I tell you another thing, I'm spec'd for hate, and I have yet to see a guard that can out hate me.</p><p>brawlers have great single target hate, and are total junk vs groups.  Guards also have great single target hate, but have to spec a certain way to be okay at group ago.  SKs, well spec AGI/STA/INT (group mob hate spec) or STR/INT(better single target hate, with some loss to group) with the hate tree in EoF, and lets talk about hate.  Zerkers rock at group agro too, and if spec'd for hate can hold as well as an SK vs groups.</p><p>DPS like hate, requires a focus to do DPS, for instance if your going the final ability in the strength line 10% reduction in cast times/reuse/speed increase.  You need to follow this up, 10% is nice, but how about another 10% from the cloak of unrest, and 5% from the ring of the 4 winds.</p><p>Another mistake in DPS that is made by SKs is there weapons are too fast, On average there is about 1.5 second pause between our autoattacks (CA will create a 1 sec pause, where Wrath will produce a 2.5 sec pause), if your using a weapon that autoattacks 1 once ever 1 - 1.5 seconds your missing out on a lot of damage, more so if you can have your weapon auto attack every 2+ secs you cant stack your abilites to fill in the time between your auto attack.  Other classes typically have a 1 sec pause between autoattacks so they can use those faster weapons.</p><p>There is one thing that really sticks out is that the Malicous armor set bonus is totally ludicrous and underpowered relative to the other classes, e.g. on a completed set an SK gets an extra 35 hate when hit, where as a zerker gets a 9% chance to double attack.... give me a break.</p><p>One disadvantage an SK does have, is the gear we wear has to have reflect what we're doing.  For instance if you look at normal tank gear it contains the 3 stats tanks need most STR, STA, AGI, and then it has something on it that augments your attack or attack damage.  An SK also needs +'s to his spell damage and to int to increase his DPS which is not typicall found on this type of gear, so a zerker who's going to DPS today instead of tank doesn't have to change out his gear as much as an SK does, or a brawler.</p><p>Our DPS also seems to be more dependant on the groups we are placed in, eg, we do better in the troub group but tend not to be put there.</p><p> Anyways that's my 2bits</p>

Dead Knight
08-31-2007, 06:39 PM
If the OP is parsing second to last on raids, and can't hold aggro, then it's not a problem with the class. You just suck. Though I do agree the class needs a revamp, the situation is nowhere near as drastic as you make it seem.

CHIMPNOODLE.
08-31-2007, 06:44 PM
That a new Siggy Dead? Nice effects in it <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" /> 

Xiziz
08-31-2007, 06:44 PM
lol ok man i suck . I agree now go get drunk and dont forget to brush your teeth im tired of seeing your country men with ugly teeth<img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

Xiziz
08-31-2007, 06:57 PM
Ya Bota i dropped The STR line for STA . I my slef dont have a huge problem with aggro holding after dropping the STR line but its Real noticeable with out transefers and hate Buffs. I am down the reaver line and working towards decay next . Dont have full 100 AA yet so i imagine it will be different story. As far as parsing in raids i need to Clarify i am not last. But Stacking up attack ratings against a guard with Buckler its ridiculous maybe they need to nerf that. We do need Revamp in my opinion as the rude Brit stated , we should not be last in every base pool of HP Mit Avoid of all plate wearers . All dps is near equal for the plates now fix the other stuff thats not leveling out<img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

Dead Knight
08-31-2007, 07:11 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Pallys get the the buy when it comes to hate, it's a lazy mans hate gain :p.  But they're only as good as who they have their amends on pretty much.</p><p> When you compare hate you have to compare specs, are you complaining about hate gain when you've gone down the reaver/debuff trees?  What are you doing to take that hate?  how are you spec'd?  I tell you one thing a guard thats not spec'd for hate sucks, since they're only task is tanking that's what they spec for.  I tell you another thing, I'm spec'd for hate, and I have yet to see a guard that can out hate me.</p><p>brawlers have great single target hate, and are total junk vs groups.  Guards also have great single target hate, but have to spec a certain way to be okay at group ago.  SKs, well spec AGI/STA/INT (group mob hate spec) or STR/INT(better single target hate, with some loss to group) with the hate tree in EoF, and lets talk about hate.  Zerkers rock at group agro too, and if spec'd for hate can hold as well as an SK vs groups.</p><p>DPS like hate, requires a focus to do DPS, for instance if your going the final ability in the strength line 10% reduction in cast times/reuse/speed increase.  You need to follow this up, 10% is nice, but how about another 10% from the cloak of unrest, and 5% from the ring of the 4 winds.</p><p>Another mistake in DPS that is made by SKs is there weapons are too fast, On average there is about 1.5 second pause between our autoattacks (CA will create a 1 sec pause, where Wrath will produce a 2.5 sec pause), if your using a weapon that autoattacks 1 once ever 1 - 1.5 seconds your missing out on a lot of damage, more so if you can have your weapon auto attack every 2+ secs you cant stack your abilites to fill in the time between your auto attack.  Other classes typically have a 1 sec pause between autoattacks so they can use those faster weapons.</p><p>There is one thing that really sticks out is that the Malicous armor set bonus is totally ludicrous and underpowered relative to the other classes, e.g. on a completed set an SK gets an extra 35 hate when hit, where as a zerker gets a 9% chance to double attack.... give me a break.</p><p>One disadvantage an SK does have, is the gear we wear has to have reflect what we're doing.  For instance if you look at normal tank gear it contains the 3 stats tanks need most STR, STA, AGI, and then it has something on it that augments your attack or attack damage.  An SK also needs +'s to his spell damage and to int to increase his DPS which is not typicall found on this type of gear, so a zerker who's going to DPS today instead of tank doesn't have to change out his gear as much as an SK does, or a brawler.</p><p>Our DPS also seems to be more dependant on the groups we are placed in, eg, we do better in the troub group but tend not to be put there.</p><p> Anyways that's my 2bits</p></blockquote>Reinforcements vs Death March, Reinforcements wins.

Dead Knight
08-31-2007, 07:12 PM
<cite>CHIMPNOODLE. wrote:</cite><blockquote>That a new Siggy Dead? Nice effects in it <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" width="15" height="15" /> </blockquote>Aye new sig <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Dead Knight
08-31-2007, 07:18 PM
<cite>Xiziz wrote:</cite><blockquote>Love the class . But we still need work. Second to last in DPS only one worse then us is Paladin. Were Dead last in Hate gain. Our life taps work quite nice but its a dead point compared to Paly who heals himself and others.  please dont flame this its just a general observation. I raid frequently and have parsed and run the numbers on all these points. Just make us a functioning Viable option in end game content.</blockquote>Btw, every tank has a problem finding a raid spot, not just SK's. Fact is, no guild needs more than 2, because no content needs more than 2. And if a tank isn't tanking, their spot is better used by someone else. The problem comes when choosing your two fighters, there's no reason to pick Crusaders of Warriors. Brawlers don't even factor in this, shame for them tbh.

rabid.pooh
08-31-2007, 08:56 PM
<cite>Dead Knight wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xiziz wrote:</cite><blockquote>Love the class . But we still need work. Second to last in DPS only one worse then us is Paladin. Were Dead last in Hate gain. Our life taps work quite nice but its a dead point compared to Paly who heals himself and others.  please dont flame this its just a general observation. I raid frequently and have parsed and run the numbers on all these points. Just make us a functioning Viable option in end game content.</blockquote>Btw, every tank has a problem finding a raid spot, not just SK's. Fact is, no guild needs more than 2, because no content needs more than 2. And if a tank isn't tanking, their spot is better used by someone else. The problem comes when choosing your two fighters, there's no reason to pick Crusaders of Warriors. Brawlers don't even factor in this, shame for them tbh.</blockquote><p>And that is the perfect description of what's really happening, SOE designed raids so not 1 class will be absolutely necessary for raiding, and in doing that they have dumbed down the content that allows for the min/maxing of guilds.  SOE needs to put a little more thought in their raid design IMHO.</p><p>Most raid guilds just need 1 type of fighter class too, two guards, or two pallys, etc, doesn't make much sense.  If find the average raid guild doesn't min/max and tries not to sit there players.  </p>

rabid.pooh
08-31-2007, 08:59 PM
<cite>Dead Knight wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite>Reinforcements vs Death March, Reinforcements wins.</blockquote><p>Sorry but I disagree with you there, in Tanking Treyloth i've been able to pickup him up back on the memwhipe instantly with deathmarch, in order for the guard to do that he has to burn a rescue.</p><p> I've also pulled agro from mobs half way accross the zone when off tanking a split and using death march after the other tank died. </p><p> I haven't seen a guard do that yet.</p>

Hamervelder
08-31-2007, 09:41 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Someone elsewhere had an idea I agree with.  We have a decent amount of debuffs, lets make them raid useful for our niche.  We can already hit Mitigation, Wisdom, Strength, lets build on that idea with our current spells and just crank the volume up to 11.  I wouldn't turn down increases to hate either, but I know I will never main tank a raid (and can generally hold group aggro fine) so its not number one on my list.  </p></blockquote>That would have been me complaining about the constant SK nerfage, hehehe.

Hamervelder
08-31-2007, 09:50 PM
<cite>Xiziz wrote:</cite><blockquote>Zerk and Guard hold aggro better then Paly , Paly amends puts SK in last place . The Cloth tanks hold and rip better due to the high DPS. </blockquote>Paladins have absolutely no agro control without Amends, and it isn't even that great of a spell, to be honest.  When I'm on my swashbuckler, I refuse to group with paladins.  Ever.  They simply cannot hold agro, especially in an aoe fight.  SK's absolutely shine when facing multiple enemies. 

daga
08-31-2007, 10:04 PM
The easies way to fix agro problem is up the aa group agro buff from 3 to 5%. OK OK before people [Removed for Content] it would be almost inline with the pally agro cause its stealing agro from a group. the groups usually got to be within range and not have there own reductions (as in troub) this wouldnt make it over powered but more balanced. Also, dps isnt an issue if they made us what they orginaly wanted. Give us more utility as in debuffs and things would go alot smother in raids. Again this would be Higher mit buff from Despoil and mabe a nother debuff add to effect such as a dps decrease added to agony or somn like that. IT would only take a few changes to make us as decent as a pally.

hellskitten
08-31-2007, 10:04 PM
<cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>  SK's absolutely shine when facing multiple enemies.  </blockquote>Maybe thats the root of some peoples issue (I disagree.. SK are fine IMO.. just unnerf reaver and fix str buff situation,) its not the SK thats the problem... maybe if few raid zones was designed with multiple hardcore enemies instead one ubertron.

Bowser
09-01-2007, 04:03 AM
<cite>hellskitten wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>  SK's absolutely shine when facing multiple enemies.  </blockquote>Maybe thats the root of some peoples issue (I disagree.. SK are fine IMO.. just unnerf reaver and fix str buff situation,) its not the SK thats the problem... maybe if few raid zones was designed with multiple hardcore enemies instead one ubertron.</blockquote><p>I agree that we need Reaver unnerfed and our STR buff back. If those get fixed I would consider SKs fixed. </p><p>As far as raiding goes, I haven't raided before so its not something I can really comment on one way or another. But I wouldn't say no to raid improvement stuff.</p>

Hamervelder
09-01-2007, 05:50 AM
There are really two things that hold shadowknights back from being <i>really</i> solid tanks, whether in groups or raids.  Low health pool and interrupts.  We have the lowest health pool of all the tank classes.  The stamina line helps, but even with the extra 500 or so hp from that line, and then several adornments, Uros is only sitting at about 7.8k health self-buffed (In a mix of legendary and fabled gear).  In comparison my swashbuckler can have about 7.6k if he goes down the stamina line.  Now look at similiarly-geared guardians.  They're pushing 10k.  I think it's rather clear, in that perspective, that SK's are lacking on health.  One could also say that SK mitigation is low, but we can take it right from enemies when we need it.  If you are lucky enough to get swarmed by 8 creatures, you can get a whopping ~1600 mitigation from them.  That's nothing to be sneezed at.  The other shortcoming, as I mentioned, is interrupts.  AoE lifetaps, dots, and mitigation syphons do no good when you're interrupted over and over.  I don't really have a solution to offer, but I can say that I <i>hate</i> the auto-recast feature.  I preferred the old instanted "Interrupted!" message over the auto-recast function.  If you let that play out, you can spend 8 or 9 seconds trying to cast Tap Veins while the game tries to recover from an interrupt.  I suppose one solution off the top of my head is to make Focus actually prevent interrupts, as I don't see that it does currently. Another would be to add a temporary buff, through AA or perhaps added to Death March which prevents interrupts for a short time.  It doesn't have to last long, just 10 or 15 seconds.  Just long enough to get you through one of those butt-clenchers where you know that you (and then the whole group) are going to wipe if you don't get Tap Veins off right then.I could live with Reaver being nerfed, the loss of our strength buff, and even what I consider a low power pool, if these two shortcomings were addressed in a positive manner.

Beldin_
09-01-2007, 09:41 AM
<cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Low health pool and interrupts.  We have the lowest health pool of all the tank classes.  The stamina line helps, but even with the extra 500 or so hp from that line, and then several adornments, Uros is only sitting at about 7.8k health self-buffed (In a mix of legendary and fabled gear).  In comparison my swashbuckler can have about 7.6k if he goes down the stamina line.  Now look at similiarly-geared guardians.  They're pushing 10k.  </blockquote><p>A "similiar" geared guard also has never 10k .. he has maybe 1k more. And Zerkers have also no lifebuff at all so my 70 zerker has less life then my SK since his gear is a little worse. </p><p>For aggro zerkers need buckler line, so for tanking your avoidance is worse then SK. AoE aggro mostly is based on spells that are on 3 minute timers .. that may be fine on raids .. but for normal groups i prefer the AoE potential of the SK that is up on every fight. </p><p>And monks also pull single targets from my zerker and warlocks AoE targets. After playing now a zerker to 70 i really don't see where they are so much better then SKs. Also all the styles are sooo boring .. imagine you would have 6 versions of pariahs brand on your hotkey .. lol</p>

Dead Knight
09-01-2007, 01:15 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dead Knight wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite>Reinforcements vs Death March, Reinforcements wins.</blockquote><p>Sorry but I disagree with you there, in Tanking Treyloth i've been able to pickup him up back on the memwhipe instantly with deathmarch, in order for the guard to do that he has to burn a rescue.</p><p> I've also pulled agro from mobs half way accross the zone when off tanking a split and using death march after the other tank died. </p><p> I haven't seen a guard do that yet.</p></blockquote>Death March only goes off once, and is instant snap aggro, so if you're at the bottom of the hate list, you won't go to the top using just DM, you'd have to use Rescue too etc. Reinforcements increases your hate position by 1 everytime you hit the mob, so you can literally go from 0 to top on the hate list with one ability.

Dead Knight
09-01-2007, 01:16 PM
Zerkers have more HP because the Warrior STA:HP ratio is much higher. Guardians in Legendary/Fabled gear do not hit 10k HP, I don't know where you got that figure from. The top geared guardians in this game are at about 10.5-10.7k self buffed and that's with contested and high end EoF loot. No half legendary Guardian will be pushing those numbers.

Dead Knight
09-01-2007, 01:19 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Low health pool and interrupts.  We have the lowest health pool of all the tank classes.  The stamina line helps, but even with the extra 500 or so hp from that line, and then several adornments, Uros is only sitting at about 7.8k health self-buffed (In a mix of legendary and fabled gear).  In comparison my swashbuckler can have about 7.6k if he goes down the stamina line.  Now look at similiarly-geared guardians.  They're pushing 10k.  </blockquote><p>A "similiar" geared guard also has never 10k .. he has maybe 1k more. And Zerkers have also no lifebuff at all so my 70 zerker has less life then my SK since his gear is a little worse. </p><p>For aggro zerkers need buckler line, so for tanking your avoidance is worse then SK. AoE aggro mostly is based on spells that are on 3 minute timers .. that may be fine on raids .. but for normal groups i prefer the AoE potential of the SK that is up on every fight. </p><p>And monks also pull single targets from my zerker and warlocks AoE targets. After playing now a zerker to 70 i really don't see where they are so much better then SKs. Also all the styles are sooo boring .. imagine you would have 6 versions of pariahs brand on your hotkey .. lol</p></blockquote>Zerkers do not NEED the Buckler line for aggro, it's just a plus. I have seen Zerkers and Guardians alike tank perfectly fine against 35k raid DPS with a Tower shield and not lose aggro once. If Monks and Warlocks are pulling aggro off your Zerker and not your SK I'd imagine you either play your SK better or more, and if you play your SK more they'll obviously have better gear and more masters. Zerkers beat SK's at aggro without Death March. Why? We use DoTs, they use big hitting CAs. DoTs never have been and never will be good for aggro.

Dead Knight
09-01-2007, 01:30 PM
<cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xiziz wrote:</cite><blockquote>Zerk and Guard hold aggro better then Paly , Paly amends puts SK in last place . The Cloth tanks hold and rip better due to the high DPS. </blockquote>Paladins have absolutely no agro control without Amends, and it isn't even that great of a spell, to be honest.  When I'm on my swashbuckler, I refuse to group with paladins.  Ever.  They simply cannot hold agro, especially in an aoe fight.  SK's absolutely shine when facing multiple enemies.  </blockquote>You must have grouped with some crappy Paladins, then. Paladins have 1 more AE than we do, and can parse just as well as we can on AE fights. Not to mention their aggro without Amends isn't all that bad either, it just means they have to work much harder. Go ahead and say something like that to Virutis or Madbiker, because they can do a hell of alot more without Amends than most SK's can with Siphon Hate.

CHIMPNOODLE.
09-01-2007, 03:19 PM
<p>Personally, I  find Deathmarch has the edge on Reinforcements. The immunities, insta hate and range just make it a better ability overall.  Reinforcements is nice though.</p><p>As far as health pool...ya, the top geared guardians are usually sitting around 10.6K HP, the top SKs around 10.1K. The SKs usually with more mitigation, and less contested avoidance though. Neither is lacking on Health with those numbers. </p><p>Interupts don't cause any issues, and dots are only part of our aggro control anyway. No isues there.</p>

Hamervelder
09-01-2007, 06:51 PM
<cite>CHIMPNOODLE. wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Personally, I  find Deathmarch has the edge on Reinforcements. The immunities, insta hate and range just make it a better ability overall.  Reinforcements is nice though.</p><p>As far as health pool...ya, the top geared guardians are usually sitting around 10.6K HP, the top SKs around 10.1K. The SKs usually with more mitigation, and less contested avoidance though. Neither is lacking on Health with those numbers. </p><p>Interupts don't cause any issues, and dots are only part of our aggro control anyway. No isues there.</p></blockquote>I've never seen an SK self-buffed with more than 9k hp, max.

melaine_dvarvensplitter
09-01-2007, 07:09 PM
Here ya go Atelos, one from AB. <a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/characters/character_profile.vm?characterId=215428104" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://eq2players.station.sony.com/...terId=215428104</a> He self buffs about 10.4 or so.

Dead Knight
09-01-2007, 07:37 PM
<cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>CHIMPNOODLE. wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Personally, I  find Deathmarch has the edge on Reinforcements. The immunities, insta hate and range just make it a better ability overall.  Reinforcements is nice though.</p><p>As far as health pool...ya, the top geared guardians are usually sitting around 10.6K HP, the top SKs around 10.1K. The SKs usually with more mitigation, and less contested avoidance though. Neither is lacking on Health with those numbers. </p><p>Interupts don't cause any issues, and dots are only part of our aggro control anyway. No isues there.</p></blockquote>I've never seen an SK self-buffed with more than 9k hp, max.</blockquote>Hmm, sounds like you're stuck in DoF or something. I get 9.3k self buffed just by respeccing to STA and putting my HP gear on.

CHIMPNOODLE.
09-02-2007, 01:16 AM
I'm self buffed just under 9500 for now. Useing a clicky or Constitution potion puts around 9900 if I want to push it solo for a short bit. With some gear pieces I'm waiting on, 10K is very doable.

Hamervelder
09-02-2007, 03:57 AM
<cite>Dead Knight wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>CHIMPNOODLE. wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Personally, I  find Deathmarch has the edge on Reinforcements. The immunities, insta hate and range just make it a better ability overall.  Reinforcements is nice though.</p><p>As far as health pool...ya, the top geared guardians are usually sitting around 10.6K HP, the top SKs around 10.1K. The SKs usually with more mitigation, and less contested avoidance though. Neither is lacking on Health with those numbers. </p><p>Interupts don't cause any issues, and dots are only part of our aggro control anyway. No isues there.</p></blockquote>I've never seen an SK self-buffed with more than 9k hp, max.</blockquote>Hmm, sounds like you're stuck in DoF or something. I get 9.3k self buffed just by respeccing to STA and putting my HP gear on.</blockquote>And what's your gear like?  Before you answer, remember that I do not have top-geared sk's in mind.  If you're decked out in all fabled gear, Master I's, and great adornmnents, then great for you.  But you aren't indicative of <i>most</i> shadowknights out there.  If it were even remotely easy or common for SK's to get into raiding guilds and get that gear, then you would not see a thousand posts on the subject of why SK's can't get into [email protected] everyone who PM'd me about Evilswank:  Yes, I know him.  I simply forgot, hehe.  But he is by no means indicative of an average shadowknight.  Here on AB, I seem to see alot of SK's with the same gear I have: Chestplate of fiery might, the legendary legs from Valdoons, Scourge Knight Spaulders, Blackcoat handguards, and then whatever helmet and boots they can piece together.  When I say alot, I mean <i>alot</i> of shadowknights run around with that gear.   They've managed to get in on a couple of raids, and got the stuff that no one else could use, or no one else wanted.I would like you guys that are level 70 and raiders and in full fabled to remember that you represent an <i>extremely</i> small portion of the shadowknight population.  Go find some lower-level SK's and look at them.  See how they do.  Get out of your little raiding bubble and see what the rest of the game is like, and see what your fellow SK's are struggling with.*waits for the flames from all the raiders*

Salox
09-02-2007, 04:35 AM
Atelos, I'm a raider, and I agree with you. Getting that much HP is extremely difficult without at least 95% EoF gear, which as you said, a very minute population of Shadowknights are lucky enough to have. Hopefully RoK turns out better for us.

CHIMPNOODLE.
09-02-2007, 04:49 AM
<p>Umm, no flames lol....we are trying to help you <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>There are 51 shadowknights in my guild last time I counted lol. Only about 4 of them raid with us regularly. As guild and raid leader, I spend the majority of my time trying to help eveyone gear up, and improve their toons (all classes, but I work with the SKs the most naturally)....raiders and non-raiders alike. I actually have posts in this forum somewhere for non-raiding SKs to gear out as well. It was pre-EoF though, and pre-MIT change (therefore more MIT-centric), so would need some updating. It's very doable to hit some very nice numbers in the 'key' tanking stats without ever setting foot in a raidzone actually.</p><p>I'll look over your gear and see if there are some easy to get pieces that will push you up a bit. There is no reason you can't beef up your toon to the point of dominating all the content you are interested in. As an SK you are way more than capable.</p>

CHIMPNOODLE.
09-02-2007, 04:57 AM
<p>I went to check your gear to see if there was some things that could be easily improved. Atelos on AB from The Inquisition is a Swashbuckler.</p><p>If you PM me the name/server of your SK I"ll have a look.</p><p>*EDIT*....ahh NVM, I see. You're Uros Alt (main?). I'll have a look.</p><p>Ok, not sure of your AAs....but if you're not in STA, that gives a nice boost, as does the % health pool options from the "green cross" choices as you level etc..</p><p>The Jagged Band of the Cursed would be a nice addition from Unrest intead of the Dark Chitlin.</p><p>Change both Hex dolls to Ruin Dolls</p><p>Both earrings and neck need replacements. Would have to check a few STA/Raw HP heavy ones, but there are instanced ones that would be suitable replacements with a nice boost. MoA neck is usually doable as well...quite a good amount of successful pickups raids for that 1 (especially since the Guardian's AOE was toned down a bit). I know I often let people I don't know into my MoA raids when I run it if I know they need it. On AB you could try The League raid alliance maybe as well.</p><p>Cloak of Garanel or CLoak of Flames instead of Cloak of Unrest.</p><p>Claymore Belt (possibly ear as well would help)</p><p>Something like the Novum Tectum off Sage in CMM instead of the Splitscar Bow.</p><p>Brell God for STA pet possibly</p><p>....not sure which adorns you are using but the Shoulders +100HP (usually around 1 plat), both Rings +70HP (usually in the 85 gold range each), +14 STA ones where can (legs etc......usually around 1 plat to 1 plat 15 gold), +6 all across chest. All of those are quite cheap with the exception of the +6 Chest (still usually not more than 6 Plat max on my server anyway). 1 or 2 lucky master drops to sell could cover all of them.</p><p>Nice little temporary boosts for the odd toughie....Claymore shoulder clicky, Constitution potions, Brell blessing, Halasian Icebrew etc. etc.</p><p>Anyway, just some Ideas. Hope something there is helpful.</p>

Hamervelder
09-02-2007, 07:19 AM
<cite>CHIMPNOODLE. wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I went to check your gear to see if there was some things that could be easily improved. Atelos on AB from The Inquisition is a Swashbuckler.</p><p>If you PM me the name/server of your SK I"ll have a look.</p><p>*EDIT*....ahh NVM, I see. You're Uros Alt (main?). I'll have a look.</p><p>Ok, not sure of your AAs....but if you're not in STA, that gives a nice boost, as does the % health pool options from the "green cross" choices as you level etc..</p><span style="color: #ff9900;">Yeah, I'm in the stamina line.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" />  IIRC, I also took as many health boosts as I could from those choices you mentioned.  I think the stamina line added about 450-500 to Uros's overall health.</span><p>The Jagged Band of the Cursed would be a nice addition from Unrest intead of the Dark Chitlin.</p><span style="color: #ff9900;">I'll have a look for that.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /></span><p>Change both Hex dolls to Ruin Dolls</p><p>Both earrings and neck need replacements. Would have to check a few STA/Raw HP heavy ones, but there are instanced ones that would be suitable replacements with a nice boost. MoA neck is usually doable as well...quite a good amount of successful pickups raids for that 1 (especially since the Guardian's AOE was toned down a bit). I know I often let people I don't know into my MoA raids when I run it if I know they need it. On AB you could try The League raid alliance maybe as well.</p><p>Cloak of Garanel or CLoak of Flames instead of Cloak of Unrest.</p><p>Claymore Belt (possibly ear as well would help)</p><p>Something like the Novum Tectum off Sage in CMM instead of the Splitscar Bow.</p><p>Brell God for STA pet possibly</p><p>....not sure which adorns you are using but the Shoulders +100HP (usually around 1 plat), both Rings +70HP (usually in the 85 gold range each), +14 STA ones where can (legs etc......usually around 1 plat to 1 plat 15 gold), +6 all across chest. All of those are quite cheap with the exception of the +6 Chest (still usually not more than 6 Plat max on my server anyway). 1 or 2 lucky master drops to sell could cover all of them.</p><span style="color: #ff9900;">Got the 100hp adornment for the shoulders, sta on legs, and feet.  I think I went 1 health and 1 power for the rings.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /></span><p>Nice little temporary boosts for the odd toughie....Claymore shoulder clicky, Constitution potions, Brell blessing, Halasian Icebrew etc. etc.</p><p>Anyway, just some Ideas. Hope something there is helpful.</p></blockquote>I don't know if I've been living in a box, or maybe just developed particular ideas over time, but you know... I seem to go for jewelry and armor that give raw mitigation and/or stat bonuses.  I think the same frame of mind is what keeps Atelos's dps from being where I want it to be.  Little or no proc gear, straight stat bonuses all around. 

melaine_dvarvensplitter
09-02-2007, 02:49 PM
<cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>CHIMPNOODLE. wrote:</cite><blockquote> </blockquote>I don't know if I've been living in a box, or maybe just developed particular ideas over time, but you know... I seem to go for jewelry and armor that give raw mitigation and/or stat bonuses.  I think the same frame of mind is what keeps Atelos's dps from being where I want it to be.  Little or no proc gear, straight stat bonuses all around.  </blockquote>I know since they have put a cap on mitigation I now use a balance of stats/gear choices based on my play style. As you know Atelos, I raid, group, solo/duo when I am on. Also, procs are you friend and same with +spell damage adornments like the +25 one for hands the +45 disease one for symbols. Procs are your friend regardless of class, now I don't know the specifics for RoK but word on the street is the +damage adornments will be popular. Also when ya see me around and need a hand with Uros give me a tell and I will help where I can.

Hamervelder
09-02-2007, 05:16 PM
<cite>melaine_dvarvensplitter wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>CHIMPNOODLE. wrote:</cite><blockquote> </blockquote>I don't know if I've been living in a box, or maybe just developed particular ideas over time, but you know... I seem to go for jewelry and armor that give raw mitigation and/or stat bonuses.  I think the same frame of mind is what keeps Atelos's dps from being where I want it to be.  Little or no proc gear, straight stat bonuses all around.  </blockquote>I know since they have put a cap on mitigation I now use a balance of stats/gear choices based on my play style. As you know Atelos, I raid, group, solo/duo when I am on. Also, procs are you friend and same with +spell damage adornments like the +25 one for hands the +45 disease one for symbols. Procs are your friend regardless of class, now I don't know the specifics for RoK but word on the street is the +damage adornments will be popular. Also when ya see me around and need a hand with Uros give me a tell and I will help where I can. </blockquote>Will do.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  In the mean time, I'll be on Atelos twinking his dps.  OMG, what a difference a couple of proc pieces makes.....  His auto-attack dps shot up from an average of about 650dps, to about 800, just by switching out my rings.  O.o

Dead Knight
09-02-2007, 08:36 PM
Spell procs are much more important than melee procs.

Beldin_
09-03-2007, 02:43 PM
<cite>Dead Knight wrote:</cite><blockquote>Zerkers do not NEED the Buckler line for aggro, it's just a plus. I have seen Zerkers and Guardians alike tank perfectly fine against 35k raid DPS with a Tower shield and not lose aggro once. If Monks and Warlocks are pulling aggro off your Zerker and not your SK I'd imagine you either play your SK better or more, and if you play your SK more they'll obviously have better gear and more masters. Zerkers beat SK's at aggro without Death March. Why? We use DoTs, they use big hitting CAs. DoTs never have been and never will be good for aggro.</blockquote><p>There a not much  "big hitting CAs" .. most is just autoattack, and that can be buffed much better then spells, and +60% autattack is a big factor here i think.</p><p>This image stolen from another thread shows that very good :</p><p><img src="http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/6536/2kzwtr1.png" alt="" width="644" height="611" border="0" /></p><p>Blade Chime and Crypts at least is the dirge, don't know how much the DPS/Haste of the dirge made, however CAs are just a very minor point.</p><p>Stolen from this thread : <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=15&topic_id=380236#4308160" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...=380236#4308160</a></p>

Dead Knight
09-05-2007, 03:56 PM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dead Knight wrote:</cite><blockquote>Zerkers do not NEED the Buckler line for aggro, it's just a plus. I have seen Zerkers and Guardians alike tank perfectly fine against 35k raid DPS with a Tower shield and not lose aggro once. If Monks and Warlocks are pulling aggro off your Zerker and not your SK I'd imagine you either play your SK better or more, and if you play your SK more they'll obviously have better gear and more masters. Zerkers beat SK's at aggro without Death March. Why? We use DoTs, they use big hitting CAs. DoTs never have been and never will be good for aggro.</blockquote><p>There a not much  "big hitting CAs" .. most is just autoattack, and that can be buffed much better then spells, and +60% autattack is a big factor here i think.</p><p>This image stolen from another thread shows that very good :</p><p><img src="http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/6536/2kzwtr1.png" border="0" alt="" width="644" height="611" /></p><p>Blade Chime and Crypts at least is the dirge, don't know how much the DPS/Haste of the dirge made, however CAs are just a very minor point.</p><p>Stolen from this thread : <a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=15&topic_id=380236#4308160" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...=380236#4308160</a></p></blockquote>Nevertheless, they use DD, we use DoTs.

Wildmage
09-05-2007, 10:26 PM
how many dots do we have? I count like 3 1 single target and one pbAoe, and the single target taunt.   The rest of our spells are straight damage or effect.

Beldin_
09-05-2007, 11:11 PM
<cite>Wildmage wrote:</cite><blockquote>how many dots do we have? I count like 3 1 single target and one pbAoe, and the single target taunt.   The rest of our spells are straight damage or effect.</blockquote>Both of our 30 second AoEs are dots, Pestilence also is a dot.

Hamervelder
09-05-2007, 11:35 PM
<cite>Wildmage wrote:</cite><blockquote>how many dots do we have? I count like 3 1 single target and one pbAoe, and the single target taunt.   The rest of our spells are straight damage or effect.</blockquote>Putrid Coil, Death Circle, Unending Misery, Pestilence, Nefarious Sacrament, and Insidious Promise.   Unending Misery, Death Circle, and Pestilence are aoe's. 

smut
09-11-2007, 07:35 PM
<cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wildmage wrote:</cite><blockquote>how many dots do we have? I count like 3 1 single target and one pbAoe, and the single target taunt.   The rest of our spells are straight damage or effect.</blockquote>Putrid Coil, Death Circle, Unending Misery, Pestilence, Nefarious Sacrament, and Insidious Promise.   Unending Misery, Death Circle, and Pestilence are aoe's.  </blockquote>You are forgetting Doom Judgement and Tap Veins as AOE's. And pestilence isnt an AOE in my opinion. It only hits one target on cast and unless you kill them fast enough it doesnt spread so I dont consider that an AOE and neither does SoE.

Beldin_
09-11-2007, 09:57 PM
<cite>smut wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wildmage wrote:</cite><blockquote>how many dots do we have? I count like 3 1 single target and one pbAoe, and the single target taunt.   The rest of our spells are straight damage or effect.</blockquote>Putrid Coil, Death Circle, Unending Misery, Pestilence, Nefarious Sacrament, and Insidious Promise.   Unending Misery, Death Circle, and Pestilence are aoe's.  </blockquote>You are forgetting Doom Judgement and Tap Veins as AOE's. And pestilence isnt an AOE in my opinion. It only hits one target on cast and unless you kill them fast enough it doesnt spread so I dont consider that an AOE and neither does SoE.</blockquote>The questions was about DOTs .. and not AoEs <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Hamervelder
09-11-2007, 10:51 PM
<cite>smut wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wildmage wrote:</cite><blockquote>how many dots do we have? I count like 3 1 single target and one pbAoe, and the single target taunt.   The rest of our spells are straight damage or effect.</blockquote>Putrid Coil, Death Circle, Unending Misery, Pestilence, Nefarious Sacrament, and Insidious Promise.   Unending Misery, Death Circle, and Pestilence are aoe's.  </blockquote>You are forgetting Doom Judgement and Tap Veins as AOE's. And pestilence isnt an AOE in my opinion. It only hits one target on cast and unless you kill them fast enough it doesnt spread so I dont consider that an AOE and neither does SoE.</blockquote>The poster asked about dot's, not aoe.  <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  I was just differentiating between single-target and aoe dots.  As for Pestilence, it has the <i>potential</i> to be an aoe spell.  Hence, the blue icon background.