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Squigglle
07-31-2007, 02:46 PM
<li>Alternate: Siphon Armament: can be cast on a raid fighter. </li><li>Enhance: Cleave Flesh: Increased wisdom reduction amount from 10% to 12% per rank. </li><li>Enhance: Despoiling Mists: Improved reuse speed bonus from 3 to 6 seconds per rank. </li><li>Alternate: Siphon Armament: Increased mitigation gained by 33% more than before. Can now be cast on a raid ally. </li><li>Pools of Blood: Increased bleed pool amount by 60% more than before. </li><li><span style="color: #cc0000"><b><u>Reaver: Reduced health returned from 2.5% to 2%.</u></b></span></li>

Wildmage
07-31-2007, 03:39 PM
<cite>Squigglle wrote:</cite><blockquote><li>Alternate: Siphon Armament: can be cast on a raid fighter. </li><li>Enhance: Cleave Flesh: Increased wisdom reduction amount from 10% to 12% per rank. </li><li>Enhance: Despoiling Mists: Improved reuse speed bonus from 3 to 6 seconds per rank. </li><li>Alternate: Siphon Armament: Increased mitigation gained by 33% more than before. Can now be cast on a raid ally. </li><li>Pools of Blood: Increased bleed pool amount by 60% more than before. </li><li><span style="color: #cc0000"><b><u>Reaver: Reduced health returned from 2.5% to 2%.</u></b></span></li></blockquote>welcome to last month, we've known about this forever.

AndrewSquared
07-31-2007, 04:23 PM
<cite>Wildmage wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Squigglle wrote:</cite><blockquote><li>Alternate: Siphon Armament: can be cast on a raid fighter. </li><li>Enhance: Cleave Flesh: Increased wisdom reduction amount from 10% to 12% per rank. </li><li>Enhance: Despoiling Mists: Improved reuse speed bonus from 3 to 6 seconds per rank. </li><li>Alternate: Siphon Armament: Increased mitigation gained by 33% more than before. Can now be cast on a raid ally. </li><li>Pools of Blood: Increased bleed pool amount by 60% more than before. </li><li><span style="color: #cc0000"><b><u>Reaver: Reduced health returned from 2.5% to 2%.</u></b></span></li></blockquote>welcome to last month, we've known about this forever. </blockquote><p> I didn't and I'm lazy, so I don't read patch notes before they come out (why cause undo grief?).</p><p>As a side note, isn't this the percent that reaver was at upon original release? Or am I making stuff up again?</p>

Grace
07-31-2007, 04:29 PM
Since I am no where near diminishing returns, I think the STR nerf is worse than the Reaver nerf. Plus I find it ironic that a buff spell named 'Unhallowed Strength' no longer gives strength...

Garnaf
07-31-2007, 07:40 PM
Paladin - Vigor of Trust: Increases Wisdom, removed Strength (moved to Blessing spells), and increases Healing of all spells. Shadowknight - Contract from Below: Increases Stamina, removed Strength, and increases Damage of all spells. [Removed for Content]?!?  Ok so Paladins get Str removed from the group buff and put on the self buff.  SKs just lose a good 54 Str.  Wow that's fair... And to answer the question about Reaver, no when Reaver FIRST came out it was a flat heal (no %) then it was changed to 2.5% and SKs were happy, now it's 2% and I leave it off most of the time =/

Oldlore
07-31-2007, 08:58 PM
I can see no reason why the STR was taken out and not given back to us as a self-buff, especially as the other 3 classes who had their buffs changed lost nothing.  I can only hope it was an oversight.  I also hope they give my zerker something as well <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Noktaris
07-31-2007, 09:26 PM
<p>So whats the deal with the +spell damage...do we not get any benefit from it at all?  I been testing it more often then not I'm getting higher spell hits with the buff turned off then having it on.</p><p>Rather annoyed they removed the Str from our group buff.</p>

Garnaf
07-31-2007, 10:23 PM
the +Spell Damage is normalized like Bolt of Energy. so the BEST spell for it is our Wrath line (90 / 3 = +30 Damage to Wrath spells) The worst is Misery (90 / 6 / 8 / 5 = +0.3 Damage per target per tick) Tap Veins and Pestilence get 0, as do our procs Normalization works like this N = Total Damage mod T = Cast time / 3 (Minimum 1) N / T = Total +Damage If the spell is a DoT you divide by 5 as well.  If it's an AOE you divide by 8.  If it's both an AE and a DoT you divide by both 5 and 8.  Spells that work from triggers (Pestilence and tap Veins) get 0, all procs get 0, Instant spells get VERY little (like +3 or +4)

Galn
07-31-2007, 10:25 PM
<cite>Noktaris wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>So whats the deal with the +spell damage...do we not get any benefit from it at all?  I been testing it more often then not I'm getting higher spell hits with the buff turned off then having it on.</p><p>Rather annoyed they removed the Str from our group buff.</p></blockquote> Best way to test it is to use your level 1-5 spells and see what damage they do. I am in an area which is not even close to soloable, so I cant test it, but there was a good post recently abnout how the bonus would apply to different types of spells, straight nukes benefit the most.

Hamervelder
07-31-2007, 10:26 PM
If that's true, then the change is more worthless than I had realized.  We lost melee damage and power by having our strength cut, and get a paultry return on <i>some</i> of our spells.  Not worth it at all.  I sincerely hope that the developers take note, and give the strength back.

Garnaf
07-31-2007, 10:43 PM
I think that particular part of the buff is ment to be more help to the group than to us.  I just want the Str on my self buff like the freaking Paladins get.

Skar
08-01-2007, 01:01 AM
<p>Screw it. I'm swapping to all INT/STR gear and going full blown dps now. Gonna sit in the caster group and kick [Removed for Content]. I'm going to be a [Removed for Content] monk for the caster group.</p>

Garnaf
08-01-2007, 01:04 AM
I really wish SOE would make up their minds about SKs.  Are we a tank?  Are we a DPS?  Are we a Caster?  Are we a Utility?  What ARE we?

Bowser
08-01-2007, 01:56 AM
The nerf to Reaver is complete BS. They should remove the health cost in order to compensate for the loss in health return.

Kaishod
08-01-2007, 02:10 AM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>I really wish SOE would make up their minds about SKs.  Are we a tank?  Are we a DPS?  Are we a Caster?  Are we a Utility?  What ARE we? </blockquote><p> looks like we're being forced into the caster role, lower then before now our melee is nailed a bit... thats alot of str to be given up... glad thats one of the Master's I haven't invested in... </p><p>wonder if SOE has plans to ruin EQ2 the way they ruined SWG by making everything more equal... silly stuff like this, among other things, just makes ya wonder</p>

rabid.pooh
08-01-2007, 03:05 AM
<p>Well the stamina wasn't increased, the Strength was just taken away.  At least I'm pretty sure it was 54 STA before the nerf.</p><p> To see how much the spell damage ability adds, just examine your spells with it off, then turn it on and you'll see the increase.  it adds to the base and max damage of the spell after it's cast.</p><p> Is it just me? or did they incrase the damage of grim coil?  I thought it was 94 a tick or so.  Right now it says 207 a tick for me?  or was 94 what it was healing me for?</p>

geophonic
08-01-2007, 05:50 AM
we could bring this to a final conclusion now: We hate Paladins even more <img src="/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> no really, I have no idea why they did it this way to give Paladins their Strength buff on another spell and take SKs obviously on a ride. sad days these days

SinVraal
08-01-2007, 08:08 AM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>Paladin - Vigor of Trust: Increases Wisdom, removed Strength (moved to Blessing spells), and increases Healing of all spells. Shadowknight - Contract from Below: Increases Stamina, removed Strength, and increases Damage of all spells. [I cannot control my vocabulary]?!?  Ok so Paladins get Str removed from the group buff and put on the self buff.  SKs just lose a good 54 Str.  Wow that's fair... And to answer the question about Reaver, no when Reaver FIRST came out it was a flat heal (no %) then it was changed to 2.5% and SKs were happy, now it's 2% and I leave it off most of the time =/ </blockquote><p> Heh Actually I left it off most of today, seemed to do A LOT better. that .5 hit is like a 45% nerf to the aa. I think having the extra corpse health is looking more exciting now, I can watch myself get beat on for about 2 minutes while they grind the rest of it away!</p><p> Maybe I can kick some serious booty with that 12% bonus on cleave flesh now! </p>

Garnaf
08-01-2007, 08:20 AM
Yea Really.  Plus at least while you're knocked out you still have all your buffs (minus reaver, which fades so you don't eat yourself).  That Pools of Suck AA is looking better and better...

CHIMPNOODLE.
08-01-2007, 10:43 AM
<p>Overall, this update gave me a nice boost. </p><p>EoF lines I'm Hate and Decay for Syphon armament. Nice increase there <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ......unfortunate that they "fixed" it so it really has to be cast on a fighter now, though I had assumed that was coming eventually to match the description. Heck, we used to be able to cast it on our god pets for soloing even lol...I had thought that was going to be fxed back when the god pet fix went in.</p><p>The replacemnt of our group STR buff component by the raid wide spell dammage boost is very nice as well imo. I'll have a better idea after checking a few raid parses though.</p><p>Wish I had enough points for Pools of Blood on top of everything though...super nice increase there.</p>

Garnaf
08-01-2007, 10:56 AM
FYI: The new Sta / Spell Damage buff isn't raid wide, just a group buff.  (It becomes raid in GU 38 I think)

CHIMPNOODLE.
08-01-2007, 11:00 AM
<p> <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Bah, was hoping to test it out already. Hope they don't change that in the meantime.</p>

Antryg Mistrose
08-01-2007, 11:31 AM
CHIMPNOODLE. wrote: <blockquote><p>Overall, this update gave me a nice boost. </p><p>EoF lines I'm Hate and Decay for Syphon armament. Nice increase there <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ......unfortunate that they "fixed" it so it really has to be cast on a fighter now, though I had assumed that was coming eventually to match the description. Heck, we used to be able to cast it on our god pets for soloing even lol...I had thought that was going to be fxed back when the god pet fix went in.</p><p>The replacemnt of our group STR buff component by the raid wide spell dammage boost is very nice as well imo. I'll have a better idea after checking a few raid parses though.</p><p>Wish I had enough points for Pools of Blood on top of everything though...super nice increase there.</p></blockquote>No need to test the SPELL damage boost - just turn it on and off and inspect your own spells, and you will realise how completely underwhelming it is.  DoT classes, let alone AoE DoT classes (Illusionist, Warlock, SK ...) see stuff all. Pools of Blood with an almost 2k extra HP, even though invisible is actually rather nice - until you realise just how much SKs relied on other classes to MT.  Its stuff all use if the mobs not hitting you, but somebody else. Yeah, yeah I'm [Removed for Content], learn to play class ... take that as read.  Try tanking with this [Removed for Content] update and see how much fun it is.  Then go and try soloing with Reaver nerfed by 20%

CHIMPNOODLE.
08-01-2007, 11:53 AM
<p>I'll test it out in the raid setting and compare my parses, as well as everyone elses. That will let me know just how good an ability it is. </p><p>The group STR compnent wasn't doing much for me, or the raid, so I'm looking forward to see how this pans out.</p><p>I didn't pick reaver before, and don't plan to now. So that's a non-issue for me personally. I feel bad for the Reavers out there though. It won't make or break PVE SKs though anyway.</p><p>I likely won't take Pools of Blood, but it's definetly nice. The monk ability that more or less mimics it has saved a wipe or two here or there on occasion, but I won't be picking it. Kudos to those that do though.</p><p>Overall, I gain a 33% boost mitigation on an ability I already had, and can use it raidwide...and get a group STR buff that was helping minimally replaced with a raid wide spell dammage boost. The numbers are not large...but overall my force is going to be better off with this than with our group STR buff imo. We'll see after checking the numbers though.</p><p>For a soloer, and some group makeups this change is not too great. For me, it's quite nice.</p>

Levatino
08-01-2007, 12:46 PM
it's hurting solo'ers indeed it's much harder now for since I'm reaver and str based to bring down mobs. Don't like this at all

Stuge
08-01-2007, 01:08 PM
So that's it?  Gratz raid SKs, sorry all solo and some group SKs? This stinks. :/

CHIMPNOODLE.
08-01-2007, 01:47 PM
<p>Ya, looks like that. </p><p>At least if they left the STR component in, or added it to another buff, then the soloers and some groupers wouldn't get the double shaft. Since Reaver is one of the most popular abilities for soloers and groupers, that's a double hit at face value. I wonder how much difference the dammage output/kill time/survivability changed with the removal of the STR (and associated loss of some power) vs the addition of the spell dammage (however small the amounts on a spell by spell basis).</p><p>On a diff note, the most frequent complaints/ comments on almost all the fighter class forums come from tanks wanting to raid (of all classes) and not being able to...pretty well known and long standing issue. Not sure if this is enough help or not, but it's a step in the right direction for that.</p><p>SKs are also well known for, and believed to be, beasts in groups and soloing. I am kinda dissapointed that one positive aspect was weakened, to strenghten the other though. There were a fair amount of posts by SKs on diff forums seeming to understand the nerfage of Reaver, believing we were overpowered with it, but the double whammy is perhaps a bit much. No real comment on that from me though, I never took that ability...but don't like to see any aspect of our class weakened, even if it strenghtens another).</p>

Stuge
08-01-2007, 02:03 PM
CHIMPNOODLE. wrote: <blockquote>On a diff note, the most frequent complaints/ comments on almost all the fighter class forums come from tanks wanting to raid (of all classes) and not being able to...pretty well known and long standing issue. Not sure if this is enough help or not, but it's a step in the right direction for that.</blockquote> <span style="font-family: courier new,courier"> Yeah.  Rewarding those who yell the loudest.  :/ Unfortunately those of us who were content with things weren't yelling.  I guess we should've been posting thread after thread after thread about how we were fairly happy. I'm happy that they are at least trying to tweak our raid viability, but I don't want it to be at the expense of our effectiveness in other aspects of the game.  These changes, Reaver in particular, are going to really put a dent in my ability to take on certain challenges that I was already <i>barely<b> </b></i>squeaking past as it was.</span>

nihilux
08-01-2007, 02:12 PM
I foresee a vacation from EQ2. SoE proves to be nothing more than idiotic when it comes to there idea of quote *good Choices*.

Levatino
08-01-2007, 02:13 PM
maybe we should now use the same medicine the raiders used, spam the forums and whine like hell.

CHIMPNOODLE.
08-01-2007, 02:46 PM
<p>Ya, I agree with not weakening a strong point to slightly fix another. </p><p>It was not only the loudest voices being catered to though, it was also the sheer volume of complaints and the nature of the problem. There's a disproportiate amount of players with tank toons, and a disproportionately small amount of slots for them to participate in that aspect of the game. Almost every fighter forum on every board I've ever checked had this issue as a hot topic. </p><p>"Yeah.  Rewarding those who yell the loudest.  :/ Unfortunately those of us who were content with things weren't yelling.  I guess we should've been posting thread after thread after thread about how we were fairly happy." </p><p>The majority were not SKs though I'd wager. The raiders themselves might be in the minority, but players of all classes and playstyles were pretty vocal in their opinions of the subject. Going back over the Sk forums for some time now...our class seems generally to be pretty happy. Hopping over to the Pally and Brawler forums, even the Zerkers ones periodically though...wow...it's like world war III in there some days lol. In our threads, there always seems to be quite a few experienced voices that always had something good to say about our class. </p><p>I found that we were already strong, and didn't need any tweaking to land a raid slot. This raid buff is superfluous. I posted as much more times than I can count. The issue was less with the class than with the raid mechanics and ecounter setups. It's unfortunate that an attempt to fix an almost universal archtype problem (success to be determined) translated into some nerfs for our class. We just got hit in another balancing act, and we appear to have gotten hit a bit worse than others though this round (even though I personally like the particular changes as they boosted me)...especially since they hit the most popular EoF line. </p><p>I would think it's possibly because we didn't complain *as much* as some, or that we were indeed pretty well off now in comparison to some. I personally find it hard not to refute doom and gloom posts saying what we can't do, when I don't have issues doing em. It's a double edged sword though apparently. If you complain too much about problems you have...you create stigmas and lessen your classes perceived value. This often ends up affecting multiple aspects of play and opportunities, not just raiding. If you don't complain *enough*, or gloat too much over your classes abilities (soloing, grouping etc..)....others target the class for whines/comparisons etc...and you get hit harder come field leveling time. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p>

Beldin_
08-01-2007, 02:55 PM
The funny thing for me here always is, that all the people who are complaining how usesless SKs on raids are, seem to be raiding all the time, at least if i see what stuff they all here carry around. So tanks for nothing <img src="/smilies/136dd33cba83140c7ce38db096d05aed.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Stuge
08-01-2007, 02:58 PM
<span style="font-family: courier new,courier">Chimp, that makes sense.  But realize that the board isn't necessarily a representative sampling of the player-base as a whole.  We have here...what, maybe a dozen or less experienced, active SKs who campaign for the class and represent on the board here?  The content masses won't be on the boards in the first place and contrary to popular belief, the plural form of "anecdote" isn't "fact".  "It works for me" or "it doesn't work for me" doesn't make something broken or not broken. I don't know.  I'm probably just frustrated because what was "challenging yet fun" just became "difficult to the point of being a chore" with seemingly little thought or logic behind it.</span>

Sportak
08-01-2007, 03:29 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>The funny thing for me here always is, that all the people who are complaining how usesless SKs on raids are, seem to be raiding all the time, at least if i see what stuff they all here carry around. So tanks for nothing <img src="/smilies/136dd33cba83140c7ce38db096d05aed.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote><p> Funny, the majority of people I see saying how useless crusaders are aren't playing crusaders. The SKs who do post here, although maybe critical of our overall raid ability compared to other tanks, at least tend to post constructively.</p><p>What I do see a lot of is you complaining about raiders. Cut us some slack, we got you all your gear <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

kickmyd0g
08-01-2007, 03:40 PM
<p>it's simple we have been shafted in the soloing grouping aspect which were the areas that we were good at, only to be given a slight raid improvement.</p><p>I think that it would be nice for someone from SOE to explain exactly what they were thinking of when they decided to take this action.</p>

CHIMPNOODLE.
08-01-2007, 04:01 PM
<p>Ya, I know Stu. This is a bad change for a lot of SKs no doubt. </p><p>As much as I am relieved that my current spec set wasn't hurt....naturally I'm not happy about the reaver and STR hits. I don't think it breaks us by any means, but I oppose taking anything away from us...ever lol. I like the raid wide buff, but I don't looove it (coulda been stronger, or something else like Unending hunger etc...but I'm ok with it). </p><p>I find we are strong, and capable of doing some great things...I don't find we are overpowered though. </p><p>Also, I don't take these boards as being representative of the overall player base's opinions for sure, but I do find a lot of opinions mirror things I see in-game, or mirror opinions etc that I see across forum after forum....whether it's SOE forums, Ogaming (in the past), Allakhs, EQ2flames, Trinity, Gamegods, Alliance boards and even in Guild forums and chat levels. </p><p>As far as SKs go, there were 51 of them of various levels in my guild last time I checked. We talk a lot. Of all of them, only a couple actually raid...but we all love the class. Though I don't solo much at all....it's with a sense of pride that I tell people that we are good soloers etc.. I'm far from the type to campaign for something at the expense of anyones play styles.</p><p>I'm pretty free with my opinions (good or bad)....but these changes are not to be laid at the feet of *all* and *only* raid oriented people, and the calls for change came from within as well as without the SK class community. People don't like being perceived as weaker, and even many non-raiders consistantly brought up points, stigmas, and topics that pushed this ahead.</p><p>Anyway, it's not a dissagreement....this is bad for Soloers, and many groupers....period. It's so so ---> to fairly good for raiders, at best. </p><p>PS.....I want the raid buff.....<b>and</b> the STR buff back.</p><p>PPS...<b>and</b> Reaver back to 2.5%.....I might decide I want to respec one day (don't tell anyone lol)</p>

Kaishod
08-01-2007, 04:31 PM
<p>someone get a hold of SVU, cause it lookes like we just got %^&*@#, and I sure don't remember a lobster dinner and movie!   lol</p><p>On a side note, has anyone seen any difference in holding aggro?  Read in a few places its a bit harder it seems for all, but now that STR is taken from us, how is it effecting our taunts and threat?  Haven't had a chance to get in a group to check... just wondering what anyone has found out.</p>

Zehl_Ice-Fire
08-01-2007, 04:52 PM
<p>I mostly play an Inquisitor now but my SK will always be my fave (I used to raid on it, but I won't be able to ever again most likely). </p><p>I know it isn't THAT much str, and I have the master, I feel..... very ... cheated/gimped/jipped maybe? How can I be a fighter without buffing myself.... I can only buff my own int in off stance. Just because we have more spells than CAs, we need to lose fuel on the CAs, but Pallys don't? Not to mention, I am accostumed after all these years of buffing 2 boxed alts for STR so they aren't burdened. </p><p>Devs can you give us a reason for losing STR?</p>

Iwice
08-01-2007, 06:24 PM
<cite>Zehl_Ice-Fire wrote:</cite><blockquote> <p>devs can you give us a reason for losing STR?</p></blockquote>And Reaver. would help swallow this huge disapointment of from being Ok to close to useless (and in the smae time see our fluffy pink good crusader friends become Uber tanks) PLEASE!?

Controlor
08-01-2007, 06:28 PM
<cite>Exifi wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zehl_Ice-Fire wrote:</cite><blockquote> <p>devs can you give us a reason for losing STR?</p></blockquote>And Reaver. would help swallow this huge disapointment of from being Ok to close to useless (and in the smae time see our fluffy pink good crusader friends become Uber tanks) PLEASE!? </blockquote> Hey i am a paladin and i hate pink. I may be goodie tooshoes but i aint pink and fluffy.

Iwice
08-01-2007, 08:27 PM
It was more a Parody on that Pallys are the champions of all good and rightfull and so, and for the moment i could not think of anymore harmless defenceles good symbolizing then pink, i dont have any personal dilemas with pink

Norrsken
08-01-2007, 08:29 PM
<cite>Exifi wrote:</cite><blockquote>It was more a Parody on that Pallys are the champions of all good and rightfull and so, and for the moment i could not think of anymore harmless defenceles good symbolizing then pink, i dont have any personal dilemas with pink </blockquote>Pink is evil.

ailen
08-01-2007, 08:35 PM
<p>oh you think that's evil?</p><p>I'm still wondering what brainchild came up with the pink armor for SK PvP set gear?</p><p>why?  WHY?!?!?</p>

Iwice
08-01-2007, 09:21 PM
Becurse... SOE hates SKs truly, madly, Deeply? <span style="font-size: small">just a theory, or maybe some dev finds Pink very Iconicfor SKs.... wich means (s)he hates SKs</span>

Stuge
08-01-2007, 10:05 PM
<span style="font-family: courier new,courier">You're losing focus, people.  Hold on to that anger.</span>

Coica
08-02-2007, 04:01 AM
I noticed a big difference today, soloing and grouping.  not happy.  booooooooo!!

Grimm79
08-02-2007, 04:14 AM
<p>What I would like for christmas is a responce from a Dev or any form of sony affiliated personell every now and then....</p><p>Always feels like shouting at a wall when you try to get a issue out. Like everyone has mentioned.. give us back our str buff! (for godsakes you removed the STR component from a skill that's called unhallowed strenght!!!)</p><p>I'm not even going into reaver, 1 small step at a time seems to be more than can be handled anyway.</p>

DwarvesR
08-02-2007, 05:16 AM
<p>I currently have 71 AA's.  50 are in the EoF tree -- Full hate spec, plus reaver, and I have the Siphon Armament.  The other 21 are spent 1 in the starter, 16 in the INT tree, and 4 in STR now, and I'll be continuing down the STR tree for now.</p><p>I was soloing today.  Didn't notice any difference from last week.  I was still taking down 4-5 blue mobs at a time.  Sure I'd get pretty beat down, but by the time I had all but 2 of them down, my health began climbing due to reaver healing me faster than the remaining mobs were hitting.</p><p>Grouping. . . I tanked OoB at level 69.  Dinged 70 on the 2 guards just before the final named, so took him at 70.  Sure the warlock could get aggro from time to time, but he still had to work at it to do it when he did, and he only did it a few times, and I could almost always peel back too.  As it was, the healer was good and we never lost him anyway.  Long story short though. . . I don't notice any loss of ability to tank for a group either.</p><p>I've not yet raided with this toon.  I have 2 healers and a coercer at 70, and they always seem to be more wanted for some reason. . . . .   But anyway, I can't compare before/after raiding simply due to lack of experience with raiding as an SK.</p><p>Were we nerfed?  Sure, on paper.  But since I really don't notice a functional difference in the game, I can't see why there's so much complaining.</p>

Nakash
08-02-2007, 06:18 AM
<p>First Off : Screw the Idea that the Reaver change only hurt the solo SKs.</p><p>I raid high end, and i have reaver before the change it keps you alive now nerfed by 20% it does more harm then use to you. So forget about that they made a raid SK friendly change. Chimp who mentioned it has already said he does not have reaver and feels sry for the ones who have it. </p><p>As i had already said in my other posts i think they nerfed it for no other reason then the ill concept: "Nerf the most choosen EOF line and [Removed for Content] the not so wanted..". No matter if you make the one that most have choosen useless and if the one you [Removed for Content] are still useless (aka Pools of blood, Spiphon Amor on fighter only etc.)</p><p><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=374695" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=374695</a></p><p>2nd. Fine that so many come out now and scream after the bus passed by. Would be nice if you come here and post before its to late.</p><p>sample seen here. <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=373436" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=373436</a></p><p>Many answers like " +90 dam its nice" without understanding the mechanism is broken.</p><p>They will fix it maybe (soon(tm)) but would you buy a broken car if you want to use it ? </p><p>and a last one:</p><p> [email protected] wrote: </p><blockquote><p>I currently have 71 AA's.  50 are in the EoF tree -- Full hate spec, plus reaver, and I have the Siphon Armament.  The other 21 are spent 1 in the starter, 16 in the INT tree, and 4 in STR now, and I'll be continuing down the STR tree for now.</p><p>I was soloing today.  Didn't notice any difference from last week.  I was still taking down 4-5 blue mobs at a time.....>8...cut...8<...I've not yet raided with this toon.  .>8..cut....8<. . .   But anyway, I can't compare before/after raiding simply due to lack of experience with raiding as an SK......>8...cut...8<...</p><p>Were we nerfed?  Sure, on paper.  But since I really don't notice a functional difference in the game, I can't see why there's so much complaining.</p></blockquote><p>People like you are what makes me ill. Play your SK as a Main Char, Raid with it. Play it at least to the End and then talk... And before just be quiet cause you have no plan whats going on. TY  </p><p>Have a nice day all.</p>

Garnaf
08-02-2007, 06:29 AM
The Reaver nerf is only 20% in the amount healed each time.  The overall functionality is about 40-50% lower depending how twitchy you are with casting. For Example: Say you cast 15 spells in 1 minute.  That's 20 ticks of reaver. Old reaver was a Net Gain of 17.5% HP [15 x 2.5 - 10 = 17.5] New Reaver is a Net Gain of 10% [15 x 2 - 20 = 10] End result is -7.5% HP per minute or a 43% reduction in the amount healed overall.

SinVraal
08-02-2007, 06:44 AM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>The Reaver nerf is only 20% in the amount healed each time.  The overall functionality is about 40-50% lower depending how twitchy you are with casting. For Example: Say you cast 15 spells in 1 minute.  That's 20 ticks of reaver. Old reaver was a Net Gain of 17.5% HP [15 x 2.5 - 10 = 17.5] New Reaver is a Net Gain of 10% [15 x 2 - 20 = 10] End result is -7.5% HP per minute or a 43% reduction in the amount healed overall. </blockquote><p> Words right out of my mouth. </p><p>Anyone go and try it out post nerf? Feel sorta weak? Thats b/c you are. you lost 1/7 of your strength and HALF of your healing power.</p><p>That + to damage is a croc o #[email protected]#, if it added +90 to my spells I'd consider it a good trade, it really adds 30. oh. Joy. </p>

Spangles
08-02-2007, 06:53 AM
<p>Slightly over-dramatised, but I get your point.  SinVraal, you say we lost half of our healing power, but we haven't really, have we?  Depending on the make up of the individual the figure is less than that.  Yes, we have lost a good chunk of our healing power from ONE ability, however the figures showing our healing power do not take into account all the healing we have in total.  How about rerunning those figures but adding in all the life tap procs and heals that occur in firing off those 15 spells in a minute?</p>

Garnaf
08-02-2007, 07:03 AM
Why?  That would defeat the purpose of showing exactly how much Reaver lost.  Though I do agree, Reaver is a far cry from being ALL of our healing power (Tap Veins, Drain Vitae, Grim Coil, Blessing and both procs make up just about the same amount as the new reaver does total).  While Reaver isn't our strongest heal, it is a large chunk of our self healing

kickmyd0g
08-02-2007, 07:33 AM
<p>SOE's attitude sucks, we're the customers here and we have some questions that require answering so drop the obnoxious high and mighty bollocks and give us some customer service.</p>

Nakash
08-02-2007, 08:06 AM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>Why?  That would defeat the purpose of showing exactly how much Reaver lost.  Though I do agree, Reaver is a far cry from being ALL of our healing power (Tap Veins, Drain Vitae, Grim Coil, Blessing and both procs make up just about the same amount as the new reaver does total).  <span style="color: #cc0000">While Reaver isn't our strongest heal</span>, it is a large chunk of our self healing </blockquote><p> Wrong, just depends on how high your HP are. Before the nerf i did 63% of my over all healing through reaver.</p>

Drax
08-02-2007, 01:20 PM
You Know what the Silver lining in all this is?  The amount of [Removed for Content] off players who are gonna be in dev's faces all weekend At Fanfaire [Removed for Content]

Kaishod
08-02-2007, 02:16 PM
<p>has anyone seen if the dmg added has helped the increase in life taps and heals?  I don't have a parse and couldn't stay on long last night to see if there was a difference (menotred guildies) so couldn't hit real mobs... </p>

DMIstar
08-02-2007, 02:32 PM
<p>Whatever plane they put our lifetaps on, keeps them from ever being changed. Heal crits, +heals Do not change the life portions only Damage parts are scaleing.</p><p>actually to add im kinda glad this mess went in before fan fair..... Cause now the questions can be there, rather then this subject being dull like it was when test was just changed,  and being left with no way of getting answers at all... like right now lol.</p>

Khotori
08-02-2007, 05:08 PM
<p>The removal of the Strength component from our line of group buffs up to Unhallowed Strength is definitely a bad idea in my opinion because that component gave us melee damage and power to perform CAs and spells. I don't know if the addition of the Spell Damage component to our same line of group buffs is good or bad because I think most SKs can do good spell damage if they are specc'ed and geared just right.</p><p>I personally wanted to know the reason behind this asinine change they made to our group buffs. From what I heard about the Reaver line in our class tree, those changes didn't make a lot of SKs happy. I haven't taken the Reaver line yet and have yet decided what else to invest in after I completed the Hate line. So no comments from me on that matter.</p><p> As for Draniko's post about our role in solo, group and raid setups as tanks, DPS, utilities or casters, I would say play how you want to play. Don't let others (non-SKs) tell you how to play your SK. If you want to tank, tank. If you want to DPS, then DPS. If you want to be an Utility, then be one. If you want to play a caster, well there's always the opportunity to play one of the Mage or Healer classes. Why should SoE determine the role for your SK when you got creavity and flexibility to adapt to different situations? </p>

Garnaf
08-02-2007, 05:33 PM
The "reason" for removing the Str is the give us more Raid utility.  And my post on class roles is mostly that SOE keeps changing what we're supposed to be, and we get stuck in the middle of it pulled halfassedly in all directions without a real class focus.

Hamervelder
08-02-2007, 06:31 PM
<cite>Kaishodan wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>has anyone seen if the dmg added has helped the increase in life taps and heals?  I don't have a parse and couldn't stay on long last night to see if there was a difference (menotred guildies) so couldn't hit real mobs... </p></blockquote> Damage added does not affect taps or heals.  Nor does it affect HT.  AoE's get something like 5 points per tick.  The biggest bonus I saw when looking over my spells is something like 30 points.  So ..... I lost 50 strength and over 100 power ..... to get 30 points on my 60-second recast nuke.  Thanks Sony.  It's rather ridiculous to nerf soloing and grouping SK's to supposedly benefit the small percentage that raid.  I'm a SK.  I mt raids.  And guess what?  I think the changes are completely ridiculous.  The mages I group with certainly don't need the paultry dps boost that I can now give them.  It's a slap in the face, honestly.  Let's add the 20% reduction to Reaver while we're at it.  In the end, that 0.5% per tick reduction probably works out to something like 40%-50% of our healing ability.  Thanks again for the slap in the face, Sony.  I was just commenting to my best friend (who also plays EQ2) a week or so ago, about how SOE has made leaps and bounds in making customers happy.  I now have to eat my words.  Those of you who are going to FanFaire, give them hell.

Garnaf
08-02-2007, 09:54 PM
[email protected] Bayle wrote: <blockquote><cite>Kaishodan wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>has anyone seen if the dmg added has helped the increase in life taps and heals?  I don't have a parse and couldn't stay on long last night to see if there was a difference (menotred guildies) so couldn't hit real mobs... </p></blockquote> <b> Damage added does not affect taps or heals.</b>  Nor does it affect HT.  AoE's get something like 5 points per tick.  <b>The biggest bonus I saw when looking over my spells is something like 30 points.</b>  So ..... I lost 50 strength and over 100 power ..... to get 30 points on my 60-second recast nuke.  Thanks Sony.  It's rather ridiculous to nerf soloing and grouping SK's to supposedly benefit the small percentage that raid.  I'm a SK.  I mt raids.  And guess what?  I think the changes are completely ridiculous.  The mages I group with certainly don't need the paultry dps boost that I can now give them.  It's a slap in the face, honestly.  Let's add the 20% reduction to Reaver while we're at it.  In the end, that 0.5% per tick reduction probably works out to something like 40%-50% of our healing ability.  Thanks again for the slap in the face, Sony.  I was just commenting to my best friend (who also plays EQ2) a week or so ago, about how SOE has made leaps and bounds in making customers happy.  I now have to eat my words.  Those of you who are going to FanFaire, give them hell. </blockquote>Statements in Bold are False.  <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=374703" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=374703</a> However that does not mean I do not agree with you.  This is ridiculous.  -40% to 50% of our healing, -1/7th of my personal STR, and a TOTAL lack of ANY Reply about why these things happened makes me actually consider betraying over to Paladin...  (I've been playing SK off and on since GU2, it takes a LOT to make me even THINK of betrayal.)  If we can't get things back to how they were then can we get some REASONING on this?

Nostarn
08-02-2007, 11:14 PM
Just to provide a little added support, I checked on my raid parse from last week and this week in MMIC, the change to Unhallowed Strength left me with almost identical numbers to my overall zonewide parse.  I know it's a small sample set, but I just thought I'd throw in my support behind how depressing this is.  Please do something to make +89.6 spell dmg usefull instead of the numbers quoted just a few posts above me in the link, and please give back the str in one form or another.  I already have enough trouble justifying to my guildies and others that it's worth it for me to be breathing the same digital air in this world...

SinVraal
08-03-2007, 03:35 AM
<cite>Spangles wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Slightly over-dramatised, but I get your point.  SinVraal, you say we lost half of our healing power, but we haven't really, have we?  Depending on the make up of the individual the figure is less than that.  Yes, we have lost a good chunk of our healing power from ONE ability, however the figures showing our healing power do not take into account all the healing we have in total.  How about rerunning those figures but adding in all the life tap procs and heals that occur in firing off those 15 spells in a minute?</p></blockquote><p> I really didnt mean it to seem like that was the majority of our healing, but basically after 1 minute, your health would / should be 1 bubble higher... now its half a bubble, which amounts to very little, ESPECIALLY considering if you screw up, you lose health. basically to play w. reaver you have to tweaked on caffeine all day long.</p><p> I think everyone can agree that 1 extra bubble of life is a beautiful thing. Its was good enough in solo to keep you hacking through a pack of blue heroics, while solo / grouping and enough to keep you from dying to RAid boss Aoe.</p><p>Now... Meh, its a cheap party trick.  I just hope all the other classes  are equally lame, b/c as it stands our ultimate EoF aa blow.</p>

Garnaf
08-03-2007, 03:49 AM
Actually Sin this makes reaver still great for what (I think) SKs were designed for.  AE Killing.  Reaver still heals for each target struck by an AE spell, so the drop in healing from Reaver is less noticeable.  (Though I'm now in the habit of leaving reaver off and only using it on AE pulls)

DwarvesR
08-03-2007, 04:59 AM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>People like you are what makes me ill. Play your SK as a Main Char, Raid with it. Play it at least to the End and then talk... And before just be quiet cause you have no plan whats going on. TY.</blockquote><p>I love this attitude that if you aren't a hardcore raider you can't talk about your class.  There are other things to do besides raiding.  Notice that becuz I've not raided I made no attempt to comment or even speculate about what the changes mean to raiders -- I only commented on the areas I *do* know, which are completely valid playstyles as well.  Not the least of which becuz the vast majority of all SK's only play in them.</p><p>Could you define "playing as a main char?"  I mean. . I'm 70. . . .that means I've put at least *some* effort into it.  I plan to raid too, just haven't had the opportunity yet.  I want to gear up, after all.  It'll help my solo and group game to have raid gear after all, becuz, ya see. . . I play all aspects of them game.  It adds to my enjoyment, so it's therefore "the right way" to play for me.  Just becuz you play a different way doesn't entitle you to tell anyone to be quiet, and most especially not me.</p><p>Also. . . this is an MMO.  There is no "end" so how am I supposed to get there before I talk?  For that matter, how did YOU get there so that you are the only person qualified to talk?  Should I congratulate you on "beating EQ2" like Moorgard did to someone else who said he'd "done everything" lo these many months back?</p><p>And did you mean "plan" in your last sentence?  Or did you mean "clue?"  And since this toon was created on <a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/characters/character_levels.vm?characterId=334451201" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">November 14th, 2004</a> and has therefore been played not only as an SK but as a fighter and a crusader -- trust me. . . I have a clue and I know the class.  Been playing it since the game launched, after all.</p><p>So. . . shall we be done with the [Removed for Content] contest of who has a valid opinion about SK's now?  Can we actually talk?  Or am I still beneath notice becuz of lack of raiding experience on this specific toon?  My point still stands -- in the solo and group game, I see no functional difference in ability.  Tell me how it's made raiding change, and I'll absorb the info and keep it in mind for when I raid.  Or provide me with examples of how it *has* changed the solo and group game and we can see about reconciling the differences in perception.  Unsupported statements that "it sucks for raids" and that I make you ill don't add anything to the conversation.</p>

Nakash
08-03-2007, 06:35 AM
<p>[email protected] wrote: </p><blockquote>[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>People like you are what makes me ill. Play your SK as a Main Char, Raid with it. Play it at least to the End and then talk... And before just be quiet cause you have no plan whats going on. TY.</blockquote><p>I love this attitude that if you aren't a hardcore raider you can't talk about your class.  There are other things to do besides raiding.  Notice that becuz I've not raided I made no attempt to comment or even speculate about what the changes mean to raiders -- I only commented on the areas I *do* know, which are completely valid playstyles as well.  Not the least of which becuz the vast majority of all SK's only play in them.</p><p>Could you define "playing as a main char?"  I mean. . I'm 70. . . .that means I've put at least *some* effort into it.  I plan to raid too, just haven't had the opportunity yet.  I want to gear up, after all.  It'll help my solo and group game to have raid gear after all, becuz, ya see. . . I play all aspects of them game.  It adds to my enjoyment, so it's therefore "the right way" to play for me.  Just becuz you play a different way doesn't entitle you to tell anyone to be quiet, and most especially not me.</p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">I dont mind if you are solo player, Grp player or raid mostly. Point is you statet that youre SK has you dinged 70 and are at 71 AA points. The fine tuning of a charakter starts after that. Call it meta Gaming or what ever. It doesnt cares me if you are less or more experienced then me, it may change in time. But on this time on this toon, youre less experienced. Its a fact that player who play mostly one charakter can do thinks with their toon Other people that play multiple alts, or have less playtime experience with this toon can simply not do. You said you tested it on blue con mobs wich are under your level wich is not a very good test scenario for healing maybe try something that hits you harder. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Youre closing comment was not only directed to the areas you do. It was a complete resume that says "Nothing has actuall changed everything is fine" Alone this comments is disqualifying you cause you have not noticed what in fact has changed. I told you to be quiet cause this forum is the way to state if something went wrong. And the reaver change went wrong. It was made to fill in the concept to nerf the most selected (or you can also call it mostly usefull) EOF line, and [Removed for Content] up the an other lines that are either less usefull or even questionable. Without taking in to calculation if the nerfed ability will be drinven into uselessness.</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">With saying here everything is ok i dont noticed something you do the SK class no good. Cause it disarms the vaild cocerns the others have noticed and complained about. It give a wrong impression. And thats what i call "makes me ill" if someone who has not noticed the problem states "Hey i dont noticed anything, all must be ok..."</span></p><p>Also. . . this is an MMO.  There is no "end" so how am I supposed to get there before I talk?  For that matter, how did YOU get there so that you are the only person qualified to talk?  Should I congratulate you on "beating EQ2" like Moorgard did to someone else who said he'd "done everything" lo these many months back?</p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">This is an mmorpg there should be no end but theres still the point that some have done already more and have more experience and so a better overall sight of the class. And i dont like the the I am better then you discussion, theres always someone whos better then youreself and if not he will come in time.</span></p><p>And did you mean "plan" in your last sentence?  Or did you mean "clue?"  And since this toon was created on <a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/characters/character_levels.vm?characterId=334451201" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">November 14th, 2004</a> and has therefore been played not only as an SK but as a fighter and a crusader -- trust me. . . I have a clue and I know the class.  Been playing it since the game launched, after all.</p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Date created and get a clue about the class are two different things. An early first one gives good conditions for the second one, but does not nessary mean it.</span></p><p>So. . . shall we be done with the [Removed for Content] contest of who has a valid opinion about SK's now?  Can we actually talk?  Or am I still beneath notice becuz of lack of raiding experience on this specific toon?  My point still stands -- in the solo and group game, I see no functional difference in ability.  Tell me how it's made raiding change, and I'll absorb the info and keep it in mind for when I raid.  Or provide me with examples of how it *has* changed the solo and group game and we can see about reconciling the differences in perception.  Unsupported statements that "it sucks for raids" and that I make you ill don't add anything to the conversation.</p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">As i already stated it makes me sad that you cant see the difference to the state reaver was before. With about 9k HP Reaver does under average conditions about 60% of our self healing. After change its down to about 40%. And its logical that you will only see the difference when you really need the heal.</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">To the change in matter of raiding:</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Reaver was when it came out a fixed amount of healing with a procentual loss to HP over time. You more HP you got, even more worse the skill was becoming. This makes it totally useless for raiders cause throughs raidbuffs or even Fabled equipment youre HP goes up and the 1% per ticks hits you even harder.</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">They changed it to be a procentual heal gain ( 2,5% ). So after you had pushed youre HP high enough. It became an good amount of heal that supports the healer and was in an area that it was usefull to have. You can say so if you want first time the cap was broken that selfhealing of a class was good enough that it could campare with higher evasion or mitigation of the other tank classes to keep the crusader alive. Paladins also gets boosted their heals so the concept seems to fit.</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Now after the reduced the skill from 2,5% to 2,0 % nerfing the Skill by 20% (and as alread someone said the potential by even more cause it goes up you more you are able to do) the drag it right to the point of Zero usefullness. You had to go full fire and click at least 4-5 spells during a tick to get the amount of heal out of it you got before. Problem is most raid encounters today involve mobs that stun, stiffle and interrupt in a way you can not even compare to the most heroic encounters. So you arent able to chain spells fast enough to get these amount of heal out of it. Not to mention lags when you cant do anything and youre skill still eats you. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">So when it goes worst you just have to turn it off. And to turn it off when you need it most should not the way a AA Endskill work.</span></p></blockquote>

Levatino
08-03-2007, 06:40 AM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>The "reason" for removing the Str is the give us more Raid utility.  And my post on class roles is mostly that SOE keeps changing what we're supposed to be, and we get stuck in the middle of it pulled halfassedly in all directions without a real class focus. </blockquote>and the sad thing, it's not even going to help the Sk to get a better place in raid.. seen on in test feedback Supernova17 wrote: "Couldn't have said it better myself. With a 4 Caster Mage group, there is no way in hell we'd be kicking out one of the Mages for an SK +90dmg on spells lol. Talk about cutting off a Mage's legs...Sorceror's NEED the deaggro from Troubs, Summoners gain DOUBLE benefit of Troubador group buffs with their Mage pets and even Illusionist's can pull scary numbers saddled with a Troub. Of course...we'd have to recruit a SK first, not that we really would...Guild aims to raid with only Guardian, Berserker/Paladin and Monk." I hope the devs listen and let the Sk return to his old self, we didn't need the adaption they made.

Lasai
08-03-2007, 07:26 AM
<p>Well, I'm one of those happy SKs, and this is my first post here.</p><p>Im not happy now.  SK was my relax class, I play my Main, a level 70 assassin, but get on my SK to just have fun.  I mainly solo, but have group tanked with no problems.</p><p>Balancing my stats was always a pain, esp before LU24, when we really had no useful SK armors.  The change to STR/Int determining Damage/power together was the best thing ever, and I bought a full set of Ebon Devout, even though I had Ebon Vanguard already on.  My SK really got fun then.. and for the first time I had balance between my two types of damage.   In other words, after LU 24 I felt SK was really fixed and really working.</p><p>It is my "push the envelope" class.  It is the class that I didn't hit "Evac" on, simply because I won so many right at the bitter end,  I never quit on a mob, because there was always "something" I could do.</p><p>It was fun to hear comments from guildies on how "tuff" my little Lycantha was.. and fun to be tuff like that.  She is the Tanker for all the little guildies leveling, since I lock exp and don't care how fast I go, and don't mind mentoring at all.</p><p>Now I feel stripped and cheated, and I fail to see why.  SK worked, we weren't overpowered, we weren't the ones rooting and nuking white con Heroic ^^^.  The class had to be played, and played well.  We could do a lot, survive a lot, handle adds, handle aggro.. but we worked for it.</p><p>Now, in order to regain any semblance of the balance I had means redoing everything.. jewelry, adorns, weapons.. god.  In return I get some lame "affirmative action" buff thats supposed to let me sit in the raiders bus.. or not.  Not worth it, no way.</p><p>Losing my str is a kick in the face, losing power pool is another kick, and messing with Reaver.. insult to injury.  I could deal with reaver.. but, losing str means less damage/less power and that is just wrong for our class.  Last I looked, my knowledge book was split.. CAs and Spell Damage.   I didn't wave a hammer around for dramatic effect... I HIT things with it.</p><p>Why break a class that arguably, for a huge percentage of the games content, simply was not broken?</p>

Norrsken
08-03-2007, 07:40 AM
I got on my sk for the first time in a few weeks today. I honestly didnt notice any difference. I could still rather easily handle 2 heroics at a time and ending with full health. Even though both mobs drained my power. Everyone just sit down and take a deep breath. Yeah, we got nerfed a bit. considering what one sk said about at the time of the launch of EoF, I've actually been expecting it. What he said was someting along the lines of "I dont want anything more, if we do get anything more, we'll be clearly overpowered and will get nerfed, I dont like to get nerfed". And considering how every SK on these boards hailed to reaver, thats nerf isnt very surprising. Sad, yep. I'll still keep the line though. (I wouldnt mind if they also put a small power regen on it, like lich, to pay off the removed heal. Hehe, I'd like that more than the heal) The str was a ridiculus change though, out of nowhere. Put it back in our self buff, please. And so sum it up. Yeah, we had a brush with the nerf bat, but honestly. the sk has been in much worse shapes than it is now. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Hamervelder
08-03-2007, 07:58 AM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>[email protected] Bayle wrote: <blockquote><cite>Kaishodan wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>has anyone seen if the dmg added has helped the increase in life taps and heals?  I don't have a parse and couldn't stay on long last night to see if there was a difference (menotred guildies) so couldn't hit real mobs... </p></blockquote> <b> Damage added does not affect taps or heals.</b>  Nor does it affect HT.  AoE's get something like 5 points per tick.  <b>The biggest bonus I saw when looking over my spells is something like 30 points.</b>  So ..... I lost 50 strength and over 100 power ..... to get 30 points on my 60-second recast nuke.  Thanks Sony.  It's rather ridiculous to nerf soloing and grouping SK's to supposedly benefit the small percentage that raid.  I'm a SK.  I mt raids.  And guess what?  I think the changes are completely ridiculous.  The mages I group with certainly don't need the paultry dps boost that I can now give them.  It's a slap in the face, honestly.  Let's add the 20% reduction to Reaver while we're at it.  In the end, that 0.5% per tick reduction probably works out to something like 40%-50% of our healing ability.  Thanks again for the slap in the face, Sony.  I was just commenting to my best friend (who also plays EQ2) a week or so ago, about how SOE has made leaps and bounds in making customers happy.  I now have to eat my words.  Those of you who are going to FanFaire, give them hell. </blockquote>Statements in Bold are False.  <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=374703" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=374703</a> However that does not mean I do not agree with you.  This is ridiculous.  -40% to 50% of our healing, -1/7th of my personal STR, and a TOTAL lack of ANY Reply about why these things happened makes me actually consider betraying over to Paladin...  (I've been playing SK off and on since GU2, it takes a LOT to make me even THINK of betrayal.)  If we can't get things back to how they were then can we get some REASONING on this? </blockquote>The statements you bolded are not false.  I looked at each of my spells without the new "buff", and then looked at them with the new "buff", and compared the differences.  Your experience may be different than mine, but my post was presented using my own observations about my character.

MaCloud1032
08-03-2007, 12:04 PM
<p>Sence the update my PvE realy has not changed.  Seeing as we all bowed at the alter of the reaver line it was only time before the nerf.</p><p>What i dont like is that to get the full benefit of reaver you have to chain cast.  That drops our dps a bit but we have learned to deal with it.</p><p>I also liked what they did with the pool line.  I had it before and lived by it before.</p><p>Now what i dont like</p><p>How do you expect me to use reaver in PvP?  You have the heal % at 1.5 and a 1% health tick.  So in reality i get .5% of my max health back in a heal as long as the spell didnt get resisted.  Last time I looked a Lv 20 can resist a 70(witch in its self is wrong)  So to get my heal now in PvP i have to chain cast(wont happen/cant happen) or pray i dont see a resist(again wont happen)</p><p>Loosing our stg thats crap.  I figured it would be put back on a self buff like the pallys got.  Guess i should not assume.</p><p>With these changes and how the EQ community felt about them i wouldnt want to be a dev at fan fair.  Probly wont be to many ''fans'' there.</p><p>You have a In testing feedback forum.  I would read it and explain why you are making changes to classes.</p>

Quaim Arcanus
08-03-2007, 03:10 PM
Well I just logged into my 70 SK for the first time since patch, I know everyone has said it already, but these nerfs are pointless. The SK wasn't really overpowered before, especially in a raid setting. Strength equals power, and raises melee damage. We happen to be a tank class, and the way it was, we already had a shortage of power when tanking. So now they reduced our strength by a bunch, lowering our melee ability and power. And why? Paladin gets to keep their strength buff, and gets a boost to healing which is better than our dmg boost anyway. Paladin also did not get amends nerfed, or hero line...why is it those abilities are left untouched, but they felt a need to mess with SK buffs. I wouldnt mind a nice buff like paladins have, 700 hps and 80 str to self...anyone else? I understand we are not a paladin, but what the hell are we suppose to be? They can outtank us, they have much better support abilities, and about the same dps potential if not better on raids. I don't think the answer if more nerfs, I think they should give us what they took away, or something just as good to make up for it...sure the spell damage is ok, but if we wanted to be a nuker/dps we wouldnt be a [Removed for Content] PLATE TANK. I just dont get why they go on nerfing classes like sk, or warlock that are far from overpowered, and the rogue classes who are t1 dps, can solo, hell even tank, and they don't get hardly touched...ooh aggro transfer nerfs, ZOMG try playing a warlock or wizard, who were also both nerfed (propagation and manaburn to say the least) I just think the devs need to be more observant to the actual needs of the classes, and stop screwing with the classes so much. I haven't met hardly a person that isnt unhappy with the patch, sure it added a few nice things, but soo many huge nerfs, its not a good tradeoff...anyway after taking a few months off, this is the kinda thing that makes you wanna go try another game. Its total [Removed for Content] they give out all these cool abilities and skills to draw people back into playing, then nerf them again and again(I have played since beta not counting myself--i mean with the expansions as they come out, every time they start out good until the nerf bats keep swinging away, every class is different you do not have to make this into ultima online or some game where all chars have the same template, or equal abilities...no class was totally overpowered before the patch, in fact many were underpowered, if anything make these classes better. Quaim Arcanus 70 Warlock Indika Ironlungz 70 SK of Guk

CHIMPNOODLE.
08-03-2007, 03:58 PM
<p>Lotta good points there.</p><p>"They can outtank us, they have much better support abilities, and about the same dps potential if not better on raids."</p><p>Don't agree with this part at all, but I understand where the frustration is coming from. There has been countless class balancing adjustments and 'leveling' since launch, some subtle and some major. SKs have gotten some good loving over time, even if some of it came late-ish. These new changes are not class breaking by any means, even if they will negatively affect many of us.</p><p>Can't say I like seeing our class take a hit to a popular line, or lose a bitta power and auto-attack, for a gain of a little bitta self and group spell dammage (GU38 raid-wide potential benefits aside) plus the improvement of a couple of other lines, but the changes are negligible, to good, for <u>some</u> of us in balance...and there remains nothing that we cannot tank now that we could tank before (as a class).</p>

ssythe
08-03-2007, 04:47 PM
As weird as it might sound I still feel we pay the price for how powerful eq1 sk's became and it seems like the dev's purposely try and "keep us in check" so to speak. Anyways the str strip really don't make sense especially with paladins keeping theirs.... a dev really should post as to why..... maybe they giving us something else in next LU perhaps?....(and I don't mean as in give us something where we need to hold our ankles to receive it). I think eq2 is a beautiful game...how ever I do think too much emphasis is put on balance and agro which kinda brings it down a good bit.It should be more about "fun" and classes that can do some really cool stuff that makes people wanna log on for those reasons. I do think if raiders(alone) dictate where classes go this game will become like eq1....not to say that tanks dont need a competitive edge because in most MMO's its the most competitive between the classes for spots.(any1 remember putting up lfg in eq1 and getting a lame tell of.....hp/ac?). Kinda curious.. I've just recently came back a few weeks ago are there class correspondents like there was in eq1? Not that it might make much difference... but would be more systemized then every1 being left scratching there heads as to what,why,when,where, and how?

Coica
08-03-2007, 05:07 PM
repeat.. this sux.  thanks SOE.  time to look at redoing my AA's yet again!! and even that wont "fix" what SOE has done to us.

ssythe
08-03-2007, 05:16 PM
<p>I havent played WoW for more then 10 minutes.... but I wonder how many sk's will jump ship when the dreadknight class opens for that game</p>

Phalong
08-03-2007, 05:39 PM
<p>On a FTH raid last night I noticed that not all of the changes to our abilities have been set yet.</p><p> Unhollowed Strength of course has had the Strength Removed and replaced with spell damage, but it hasnt been made raid wide yet.  If it has been made raidwide and simply doesnt supply a buff icon for other members of the raid, its details are very similar to Siphon Hate.  Its got the same Group(AE) radius for both Unhollowed Strength and Siphon Hate.</p><p> So. if they make this change to a raidwide buff, they will need to change to details or the spell, or change Siphon Hate to be raidwide as well.  This would make SK's almost wanted for tanking IMO.</p><p> Reason being is that they completely nerfed all hate trasnfer in hopes thats scouts would start to use their deagro abilities.  However if SK's can use Siphon Hate to take 3% agro from the ENTIRE raid, it may be worth it to dump Unhollowed Strength.  Simply just a trade off.</p><p>Just some thoughts about this nerf.  Im personally Spec'ed STR/STA & Hate/Reaver, but I havent completed reaver so that nerf hasnt affected me yet.</p>

SinVraal
08-03-2007, 07:23 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>Actually Sin this makes reaver still great for what (I think) SKs were designed for.  AE Killing.  Reaver still heals for each target struck by an AE spell, so the drop in healing from Reaver is less noticeable.  (Though I'm now in the habit of leaving reaver off and only using it on AE pulls) </blockquote><p> Dranikos,</p><p>Its still USABLE for ae killing, whereas for single mob, its basically worthless. If the casting time for reaver was say .5 seconds or less I'd not mind as much, but its a 6? second cast time or something? so not like its really switchable in combat.</p><p>Its still hideously noticable tho, where I could kill 7 even con ^ arrow mobs and end the fight at full health, now 4 of them have a chance of killing me.</p>

melaine_dvarvensplitter
08-03-2007, 10:30 PM
Once again, we get loving in EoF at release and par for course we get the shaft... I survived every other nerf and I will survive this one. *walks off severely ticked off and mumbling under his breath*

Beldin_
08-04-2007, 12:00 AM
<cite>melaine_dvarvensplitter wrote:</cite><blockquote>Once again, we get loving in EoF at release and par for course we get the shaft... I survived every other nerf and I will survive this one. *walks off severely ticked off and mumbling under his breath* </blockquote> We didn't really got love with EoF .. after release i was much weaker then before .. i simply just needed reaver and also some new items to be at where i was before <img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

melaine_dvarvensplitter
08-04-2007, 01:07 PM
Shalla, We got love in EoF .. it wasnt major but it was a start: Fixed our power pool stat requirements. Way way over due. We got reaver, we got additional life taps on many of our spells that didnt have them. Those are a couple of major ones that still stand out in my mind, are they HUGE love.. no but they are some, so to say we didn't get any love is being a bit jaded. But to each there own my friend. I did play abit lastnite with Reaver and heroic mobs and really didn't notice the effects to be to severely negative. However, I was healing 200hp when reaver hit, it is now hitting at about 168 and this is in Off stance and Int at 654ish, no potions or food and drink to help. I am sure once I do a bit more research I will or may not have anything to add or say. I am not happy with the changes but since SoE "thinks" they know what is best for the SK community I will roll with the shafting again.

Coica
08-04-2007, 11:52 PM
 still sux.  I specced out of reaver last night.also put some points into the legionaires smite INT thingy after the spell crit at another SK's suggestion. I do notice I crit heal more often,it added a 30% chance I think. but I do miss reaver when Im farming 15-20 of those bummer gang dudes in LP at once.  It's still survivable, not sure how its gonna affect my grouping or not yet.  my guild groups are used to me doing most of my own healing..like running unrest with just one healer. but now that may change.  giving pool blood a try, but already think I'll go back to reaver soon even with the way it is.  just have to play around with my AA spec some more.  it only took me like 4 months of several AA switches to get it where I like it.. bah!  comon SOE!!! show us a little love again!!

Pratell
08-05-2007, 12:20 AM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><p>How do you expect me to use reaver in PvP?  You have the heal % at 1.5 and a 1% health tick.  So in reality i get .5% of my max health back in a heal as long as the spell didnt get resisted.  Last time I looked a Lv 20 can resist a 70(witch in its self is wrong)  So to get my heal now in PvP i have to chain cast(wont happen/cant happen) or pray i dont see a resist(again wont happen).</p></blockquote> Reaver in PVP is useless now, IMO. You have to land a spell every 3 seconds to make any HP profit. Fighting Illusionist or Troubador, you just lost a ton of HP from standing around mezzed. Almost beginning to think that the single point i spent for the endline isn't worth more than another 5s redux on tap veins or mana sieve.

Norrsken
08-05-2007, 06:16 AM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><p>How do you expect me to use reaver in PvP?  You have the heal % at 1.5 and a 1% health tick.  So in reality i get .5% of my max health back in a heal as long as the spell didnt get resisted.  Last time I looked a Lv 20 can resist a 70(witch in its self is wrong)  So to get my heal now in PvP i have to chain cast(wont happen/cant happen) or pray i dont see a resist(again wont happen).</p></blockquote> Reaver in PVP is useless now, IMO. You have to land a spell every 3 seconds to make any HP profit. Fighting Illusionist or Troubador, you just lost a ton of HP from standing around mezzed. Almost beginning to think that the single point i spent for the endline isn't worth more than another 5s redux on tap veins or mana sieve. </blockquote>which is why I always toggle it off when fighting people that kite me

TheGeneral
08-06-2007, 06:36 PM
<p>You know, my guild used to joke with me saying that the only thing a SK is good for is looks.  We look pretty sweet in some of our gear (Even though they like to make us pink)...  thats it though.</p><p>My wife (inquisitor) is spec'd out as battle cleric and she can out parse me almost every time.  Thats plain sick.  I should watch it though, their method to fix that would be to nerf the Inquisitor and not actually fix us.  We seem to get more and more useless every LU.  My SK is fast becoming a PLing class for my wife's alts.</p><p> Next Live Update: Shadowknights are now an even more caster type gimped class!</p><ul><li>SK's plate armor now has the mit and voidance of cloth!</li><li>SK's spells have been replaced with the Necro line with 25% effectiveness!</li><li>Yeah, right, you do NOT get the heart line.... That would actually be semi usefull.</li><li>Look on the bright side, you still look cool.... in pink, *snicker*</li></ul>

Norrsken
08-06-2007, 06:42 PM
<cite>TheGeneral wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>You know, my guild used to joke with me saying that the only thing a SK is good for is looks.  We look pretty sweet in some of our gear (Even though they like to make us pink)...  thats it though.</p><p>My wife (inquisitor) is spec'd out as battle cleric and she can out parse me almost every time.  Thats plain sick.  I should watch it though, their method to fix that would be to nerf the Inquisitor and not actually fix us.  We seem to get more and more useless every LU.  My SK is fast becoming a PLing class for my wife's alts.</p><p> Next Live Update: Shadowknights are now an even more caster type gimped class!</p><ul><li>SK's plate armor now has the mit and voidance of cloth!</li><li>SK's spells have been replaced with the Necro line with 25% effectiveness!</li><li>Yeah, right, you do NOT get the heart line.... That would actually be semi usefull.</li><li>Look on the bright side, you still look cool.... in pink, *snicker*</li></ul></blockquote>round up 8 mobs and you should outdps an inqy.

CHIMPNOODLE.
08-06-2007, 07:44 PM
<cite>TheGeneral wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>You know, my guild used to joke with me saying that the only thing a SK is good for is looks.  We look pretty sweet in some of our gear (Even though they like to make us pink)...  thats it though.</p><p>My wife (inquisitor) is spec'd out as battle cleric and she can out parse me almost every time.  Thats plain sick.  I should watch it though, their method to fix that would be to nerf the Inquisitor and not actually fix us.  We seem to get more and more useless every LU.  My SK is fast becoming a PLing class for my wife's alts.</p><p> Next Live Update: Shadowknights are now an even more caster type gimped class!</p><ul><li>SK's plate armor now has the mit and voidance of cloth!</li><li>SK's spells have been replaced with the Necro line with 25% effectiveness!</li><li>Yeah, right, you do NOT get the heart line.... That would actually be semi usefull.</li><li>Look on the bright side, you still look cool.... in pink, *snicker*</li></ul></blockquote>The SK is a ton more powerful than the Inq overall for combat and DPS...against multi mobs its extremely apparent. I have both a raiding battle specc'd Inquis and an SK....the SK puts out substancially more DPS. The inquis does pump out a good amount though <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

TheGeneral
08-08-2007, 02:31 PM
True true.. I'm just miffed about the reaver and str nerf.