Just a Farmer, or a m4d h4x Botter?

[roces9]

Hey, I've never posted on Gameplay Discussion before, so if this is off topic I freely invite any Mods to move this to the appropriate place. That being said- The other day I was in an Unrest group with a Guildy and 4 other pickup people. Two of the pick-ups obviously didn't speak any English aside from "/1 70 wiz lfg unrest plz!" but that doesn't bother me as long as they can play well. However in this case, the Wizard didn't play well. He was afk and /follow for much of the time without even telling us a word, he would attack mezed mobs and kept looting parts (Pigs meat, screws) even after we designated who would be the cook, who needed the chess pieces etc. It started to get bad when he stopped being just a bad, foreign, player and started to play as what I would describe as a "Farmer". He would roll on anything, even if he couldn't equip it and he started to ninja-loot pages after we had stated that we would roll for pages after we had finished the instance. It might just be me, to this seemed like mildly "Farmerish" behaviors. He was clearly just trying to get stuff (even trash) to sell on the vendor- possibly so he could sell the plat on a third party site- at the expense of other peoples gameplay. But what really suprised me was when my guildy (no names here) started being abbusive to that person in our guild-chat. "God, we're grouped with a nother f'ing botter! SOB botter keeps looting pages! I wish SOE would ban these POS botters" etc. etc. I was so shocked at my friends miss use of terms. I've always called people that use illegal 3rd party software to unfairly alter gameplay a "Botter". But it seems that more and more (on these forums too) people keep refering to players that a) Don't speak much English b) Play poorly c) or just Farm items to sell on the broker as "Botters". Don't get me wrong, it does tick me off a little to see level 45 monks clearing Varsoon over and over again just to get some Masters to sell, and I get really mad when I see people monopolizing mobs/areas to farm LandL or collection pieces. But NONE of that is using 3rd party software to alter gameplay and get an unfair advantage over me aka "Botting". It especially gets me riled up when I see people flaming 2 boxers as "botters". If some one pays for two accounts and can actually play two classes at the same time, they shouldn't be flammed for doing something very legal and somewhat challenging. So please, let's stop calling these people that don't speak English or have a different playstyle than you "Botters". They're 2Boxers, and maybe the infamous "Chinese Gold Farmer", but they pay the same monthly fee and play the same classes we do and definately do not deserved to be called a "Bot".

[simpwrx02]

<p>They totally ruin game play if they are in your group, the fact that you would allow them in your group speaks very lowly for you sir.  When ever any one in my guild does a PuG and one of us thinks it may be a farmer we start asking questions and if we fell they are a plat farmer for 3rd party site we do 1 of 2 things: first we boot them from the group , or 2 we tell every one in the group that we will be setting it to leader only loot and rolling on it as xxxx is a farmer.  Both of these methods seem to work out well, if the person just dosent speak english, but plays on an english only server I am sorry , but they made a bad choice on thier server of choice.</p>

[Darsat]

<cite>simpwrx02 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>They totally ruin game play if they are in your group, the fact that you would allow them in your group speaks very lowly for you sir.  When ever any one in my guild does a PuG and one of us thinks it may be a farmer we start asking questions and if we fell they are a plat farmer for 3rd party site we do 1 of 2 things: first we boot them from the group , or 2 we tell every one in the group that we will be setting it to leader only loot and rolling on it as xxxx is a farmer.  Both of these methods seem to work out well, if the person just dosent speak english, but plays on an english only server I am sorry , but they made a bad choice on thier server of choice.</p></blockquote> You sir are one of the problems with this community.  Without enough real information you judge and assume this has to be a bot.  How do you know?   Because they dont speak english and they picked a bad server?  Here let me give you a torch so you can burn the next witch you come across.

[roces9]

Okay, right. That's all good and fine. I'm totally for that kind of behavior simpwrx02. If you don't like Farmers, that's your right. Where I get angry is when people immediately lable others that don't speak English or who just farm Varsoons all day "Botters". Just because some one speaks Mandarin and spends hours killing the same mobs does not mean that they use illegal software to alter their gameplay. And I think that people need to stop unfairly labeling others just because they are different. /agree with Darsat that it is uninformed people that start these "witch hunts" PS: btw, we kicked the Farmer as soon as he looted a Shiney that killed the whole group. No questions asked. EDIT: Curse you for beating me to the reply!

[Darsat]

Right there with you OP

[simpwrx02]

<p>Sorry if I am able to spot a plat farmer from looking at thier gear, but mostly on my server we knwo most of them by name.  If it is a wizzy has no guild or a guild you have never heard of with an anon tag... they might be a farmer.  if his gear is specced for max wards and clearly has taken the sta AA line ... they might be a farmer.  if his profile says  "i am young american girls"... they migh tbe a farmer.   If he spends all his time outside of groups farming the isle of aversion in Barren Sky with lfg tag up.... they might be a farmer,  if he spends all of his time going from one named mob to the other in Bonemier or TT they might be a farmer.  If they have a randomly generated name that has way to many non vowels in a row.. they might be a farmer.  If they have 30+ masters on the broker at any given time ....  they might be a farmer.  </p><p>It really is pretty easy to determine who a farmer is 99 times out of 100.  Personally I have no problem grouping with people who cant speak god english.  If you speak french why woudl you play ion an english only server, if you speak german why woudl you play on an english only server, if you speak japanese or chinesese why woudl you play on  an english server,  each of those languages has thier own servers.  Take the blindfold off from over your eyes not everythign is super PC, it is called reality ( yes I know wierd word for a MMORPG). Hmm let me play a game that has indept stories and discriptions in a language that I dont understand yeah thats it  /rolleyes.</p><p> And Darsat a bot is even easy to spot you see one player aka tank running around with a few sorcerers and a helaer all on auto follow mainly in the areas with large amounts of non herioc mobs.  and if you look at your combat logs when you are near them you will see all the mages and healer gettign constantly interupted as they run as they are on spell macro repeats.  And I woudl gladly burn them I woudl gladly kill them over and over again in the game if I was able to.  </p><p>Even your hesistation in kicking the farmer cost you, then again maybe he was just a misunderstood person from China trying to get a collection finished to get one more quest completed in his journal.  You just deprived him of his last collection item how do you feel now.</p><p><a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/farmers-almanac/7169-field-guide-plat-farmers-updated-eof.html" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.eq2flames.com/farmers-al...pdated-eof.html</a> here is a good guide if you want to read it.</p>

[Freliant]

<p>EQ2 is a great game, and we would all love to see it go worldwide for everyone else to play... however, that is not the case. By level 70, you expect some type of common descency even in the case of the person with the least amount of english knowledge. The person described by the OP is  clearly a player from another country, or a child. Overall, I have grouped with people like that a few times. Most of the time, they are really good players making an honest attempt at the game. There was one case, and one case only, in which I saw the person didn't care about the well-being of the group, and was more interested in self gain. In that case, I just promptly booted the person, with an fully typed up explanation as to why. If he went ahead and passed that by a translator, he would probably agree, or curse me out... either way, it wasn't my problem after that.</p><p>9/10 the person from the other nation that is playing the game, doesn't mean you any harm, and is just having a tough time fitting in with the game. If you do get that 1/10 chance though, I suggest you just boot the person form the group and move on. </p>

[Owilliams]

<p>It seems rather apparent that a portion of the EQ2 community has started using the term "botter" as more of an insult than an accurate description of players using third party software to control multiple toons at the same time.</p><p>Another example of terms like this would be "ho".  </p><p>I think most people understand that when someone refers to females as "hoes" they probably don't seriously think they are prostitutes, they are merely using an abhorant slur to degrade them and show disregard.</p><p>Unfortunate... I'll stick to only calling REAL botters by the name "botter", but none of us can fix the ignorant types that insist on misusing it as catch-all slur.   What the OP describes is more likely someone involved in the plat farming industry; a pharmer.  Although a botter is usually also a pharmer, one can be a pharmer without being a botter.</p><p>For about two weeks now I have been noticing a large number (more than usual) of low-to-mid level pharmers playing toons solo -- very unusual.  Maybe SOE has been performing a crackdown on them in conjunction with the new spam filter and the pharmers are soloing to stay low profile until the heat blows over. </p><p>Dunno, just a guess.</p><p>Happy Gaming,</p><p>--Orv</p>

[simpwrx02]

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>EQ2 is a great game, and we would all love to see it go worldwide for everyone else to play... however, that is not the case. By level 70, you expect some type of common descency even in the case of the person with the least amount of english knowledge. The person described by the OP is  clearly a player from another country, or a child. Overall, I have grouped with people like that a few times. Most of the time, they are really good players making an honest attempt at the game. There was one case, and one case only, in which I saw the person didn't care about the well-being of the group, and was more interested in self gain. In that case, I just promptly booted the person, with an fully typed up explanation as to why. If he went ahead and passed that by a translator, he would probably agree, or curse me out... either way, it wasn't my problem after that.</p><p>9/10 the person from the other nation that is playing the game, doesn't mean you any harm, and is just having a tough time fitting in with the game. If you do get that 1/10 chance though, I suggest you just boot the person form the group and move on. </p></blockquote>The game is world wide with servers in multible countries using different languages,  there are German, French and Japanese servers at the very least.

[Mantell]

<p>You have to consider the situation. If he doesn't speak English it's not really his fault that he's on an English server. SOE merged three Asian servers onto three US servers last year completely unannounced (on the US side).</p><p>So on Najena now I'd say about a fourth of the population, more late at night,  are East Asian and speak varying amounts of English. Same is probably true of two other servers, I don't remember which ones.</p><p>But just because they don't speak English doesn't mean they're farmers or botters. There are legitimate players pursuing legitimate goals. They respect camps and appreciate NBG and they don't cause trouble. They also don't speak a word of English. So if you send them a tell and they don't reply, don't be offended, they just don't know what to say any more than you would know if they sent you a tell in Chinese.</p><p>I think sometimes they use translating software that varies in quality from mediocre to hilarious. I know I've gotten tells that are all English words put together in peculiar ways. "Take up north trainer dress quality" is one that comes to mind. </p><p>It does make things interesting though when you need to group with them. The communication can fail, which it sounds like it did in the OP's case. Everyone present may have appeared to agree with NBG but maybe this guy didn't understand the question. Likewise if his English was poor the concept "I'll harvest all the collection items and share them later" is a difficult one to get across. Similarly "Don't loot the pig meat because Joe is doing the cooking" probably comes out like "Take up north trainer dress quality" when he plugs it into his translator. It would have been even more frustrating if you had been the only English speaker while the rest of the group spoke Chinese.</p><p>I've had a few frustrating incidents, and as a rule I try to only group with people who have at least basic English and let the others group with those who speak their own language. Sometimes though they're camping your mob or you really need to group with them for another reason. In that case just go with it. Use emotes to communicate if you can, it works in any language.</p><p>Don't blame people for not speaking English because they probably didn't ask to be on an English speaking server. Don't assume they are all botters, farmers or other miscreants just because they don't speak English. All that said, I don't think you have an obligation to group with them, but you should respect their camps and not go out of your way to be rude.</p>

[colddog]

So the OP is saying that people are misusing the word "botter". So what?

[Brigh]

<cite>simpwrx02 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>If it is a wizzy has no guild or a guild you have never heard of with an anon tag... they might be a farmer.  if his gear is specced for max wards and clearly has taken the sta AA line ... they might be a farmer.  if his profile says  "i am young american girls"... they migh tbe a farmer.   If he spends all his time outside of groups farming the isle of aversion in Barren Sky with lfg tag up.... they might be a farmer,  if he spends all of his time going from one named mob to the other in Bonemier or TT they might be a farmer.  If they have a randomly generated name that has way to many non vowels in a row.. they might be a farmer.  If they have 30+ masters on the broker at any given time ....  they might be a farmer.  </p></blockquote> Simpwrx02 is appearing at several auditoriums near you. <img src="http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e7/brygdom/Misc%20funnies/image_3270177.jpg" border="0">

[erin]

<cite>Mantell wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>You have to consider the situation. If he doesn't speak English it's not really his fault that he's on an English server. SOE merged three Asian servers onto three US servers last year completely unannounced (on the US side).</p><p>So on Najena now I'd say about a fourth of the population, more late at night,  are East Asian and speak varying amounts of English. Same is probably true of two other servers, I don't remember which ones.</p><p>But just because they don't speak English doesn't mean they're farmers or botters. There are legitimate players pursuing legitimate goals. They respect camps and appreciate NBG and they don't cause trouble. They also don't speak a word of English. So if you send them a tell and they don't reply, don't be offended, they just don't know what to say any more than you would know if they sent you a tell in Chinese.</p><p>I think sometimes they use translating software that varies in quality from mediocre to hilarious. I know I've gotten tells that are all English words put together in peculiar ways. "Take up north trainer dress quality" is one that comes to mind. </p><p>It does make things interesting though when you need to group with them. The communication can fail, which it sounds like it did in the OP's case. Everyone present may have appeared to agree with NBG but maybe this guy didn't understand the question. Likewise if his English was poor the concept "I'll harvest all the collection items and share them later" is a difficult one to get across. Similarly "Don't loot the pig meat because Joe is doing the cooking" probably comes out like "Take up north trainer dress quality" when he plugs it into his translator. It would have been even more frustrating if you had been the only English speaker while the rest of the group spoke Chinese.</p><p>I've had a few frustrating incidents, and as a rule I try to only group with people who have at least basic English and let the others group with those who speak their own language. Sometimes though they're camping your mob or you really need to group with them for another reason. In that case just go with it. Use emotes to communicate if you can, it works in any language.</p><p>Don't blame people for not speaking English because they probably didn't ask to be on an English speaking server. Don't assume they are all botters, farmers or other miscreants just because they don't speak English. All that said, I don't think you have an obligation to group with them, but you should respect their camps and not go out of your way to be rude.</p></blockquote>Agree 100%.  I don't have anything against non-english speakers, but in order to have a decent group you need to have a basic level of communication.  If the individual speaks 0 english, then don't group with them.  Not because they "might be a chinese gold farmer" but because you won't get the most basic concepts across like "Joe's doing the cooking".  Sounds like the OP gave this guy more than 2 chances, the second time the guy looted when he shouldn't have, it should have been "the big boot!".  Places like unrest require cooperation and teamwork, and if someone can't be part of the team, whether through lack of english skills, because they are greedy, because they are stupid, it really doesn't matter why, does it?  They aren't a part of the team, simple as that.

[KunamitsuUK]

<cite>simpwrx02 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Sorry if I am able to spot a plat farmer from looking at thier gear, but mostly on my server we knwo most of them by name.  If it is a wizzy has no guild or a guild you have never heard of with an anon tag... they might be a farmer.  if his gear is specced for max wards and clearly has taken the sta AA line ... they might be a farmer.  if his profile says  "i am young american girls"... they migh tbe a farmer.   If he spends all his time outside of groups farming the isle of aversion in Barren Sky with lfg tag up.... they might be a farmer,  if he spends all of his time going from one named mob to the other in Bonemier or TT they might be a farmer.  If they have a randomly generated name that has way to many non vowels in a row.. they might be a farmer.  If they have 30+ masters on the broker at any given time ....  they might be a farmer.  </p><p>It really is pretty easy to determine who a farmer is 99 times out of 100.  Personally I have no problem grouping with people who cant speak god english.  If you speak french why woudl you play ion an english only server, if you speak german why woudl you play on an english only server, if you speak japanese or chinesese why woudl you play on  an english server,  each of those languages has thier own servers.  Take the blindfold off from over your eyes not everythign is super PC, it is called reality ( yes I know wierd word for a MMORPG). Hmm let me play a game that has indept stories and discriptions in a language that I dont understand yeah thats it  /rolleyes.</p><p> And Darsat a bot is even easy to spot you see one player aka tank running around with a few sorcerers and a helaer all on auto follow mainly in the areas with large amounts of non herioc mobs.  and if you look at your combat logs when you are near them you will see all the mages and healer gettign constantly interupted as they run as they are on spell macro repeats.  And I woudl gladly burn them I woudl gladly kill them over and over again in the game if I was able to.  </p><p>Even your hesistation in kicking the farmer cost you, then again maybe he was just a misunderstood person from China trying to get a collection finished to get one more quest completed in his journal.  You just deprived him of his last collection item how do you feel now.</p><p><a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/farmers-almanac/7169-field-guide-plat-farmers-updated-eof.html" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.eq2flames.com/farmers-al...pdated-eof.html</a> here is a good guide if you want to read it.</p></blockquote><p>Are you on Splitpaw simpwrx02?</p><p>This week there has been on Splitpaw a group of 4 in Barren sky, a mix of Wizard, Necro and Fury, unguilded, level 70s, artisan1, killing the solo Strifewings on Desolation as soon as they pop, I asked them nicely if they would leave off a few as I needed the mobs for a quest and this is the reply i got:</p><p><img src="http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/9974/farmerva9.jpg" border="0"></p><p>(Name of "farmer" Hidden)</p><p>And then 2 more showed up and pulled every mob i went for in the area! I did a /petition, but TBH it was late, tired and  a bit miffed at what had happened so being confronted with all the petition rubbish i logged. They were there again the following night so i avoided the isle they were on.</p><p>These same 4 guys I have seen in PoF, EF and now Barren Mob hogging and not responding to requests to leave off on a mob, if I see them again I will petition but I feel that they have been a round at least 2 months and I'm sure I am not the first person they have griefed. is petitioning worth wasting my time?</p>

[simpwrx02]

Yes petitioning is always worht the time imho, as it is the only way to get them banned.  If one petition is not enough then petition them every day until they are banned,  Just make sure you include the fact that they are disrutpion the zone and preventing you from completeing quests even after you sent them a tell nicely which is diruptioning your game play.

[Kaedi]

Allegedly petitioning their actions as a zone disruption has the deisred effect however last night when I had to deal with a "kill squad" wiping out the goblins in PoF that I needed for quests ... the petition website was down for maintenance.  9pm edt, great time for maintenance of the petition site, such an improvement over the old ingame /petition method.  /sarcasm off

[Nembutal]

<p><span style="color: #ff0000">roces9 wrote: It especially gets me riled up when I see people flaming 2 boxers as "botters". If some one pays for two accounts and can actually play two classes at the same time, they shouldn't be flammed for doing something very legal and somewhat challenging.</span></p><p>Thank you... I am not a "botter" I am a multi-boxer... there are no macros being used when I go out and farm for loot... and I don't even do it often because my gear is provided by raids and I have limited time.  Yes... I just said I am a multi-boxer with limited time.</p><p>Multi-boxers don't all run bots (macros that play the game for you) and we don't all farm (we don't always need cash) and we don't all live in mommies basement collecting welfare (many of us are married with kids... like myself)</p><p>There are many reasons to box... the main one is "being self sufficient"</p><p>I can go and complete MOST quests by myelf.... </p><p>I can go and earn a good amount of money by killing heroic content... not always Metal box hunting... but even stuff with decent vendor trash.</p><p>I can level multiple toons simultaneously so when I raid I always have 3 max level toons to pick from.</p><p>When me and my bros go hang out... the 3 of us own 6 accts... possibly splitting to a 7th.... we are not anti-social... we are actually very active in our guild... we joke around alot... and we play the game mostly to be with each other (we don't live in the same house)</p><p>So basically I break every single stereotype thrown at me because I am a multi-boxer... all of them... not a single one sticks.... well except maybe that my 3 toons really only equal the power of 2 or 2 1/2 toons because they are not being paid attention to s well as they could be with 3 humans behind them... I agree with that which is why I often single box during difficult content.... I know my limits.</p>

[Nembutal]

simpwrx02 wrote: <blockquote><p>And Darsat a bot is even easy to spot you see one player aka tank running around with a few sorcerers and a helaer all on auto follow mainly in the areas with large amounts of non herioc mobs.  and if you look at your combat logs when you are near them you will see all the mages and healer gettign constantly interupted as they run as they are on spell macro repeats.  And I woudl gladly burn them I woudl gladly kill them over and over again in the game if I was able to.  </p></blockquote><p> Actually.... you are pretty close... botters are also often 1 cleric-type with 6 wizards... no tank needed because everything dies so fast (they farm greens or non-heroics... so little tanking required.)</p><p>But not all of those players are illegal... and not all are bad people.</p><p>Some people running that set-up LOOK like bots... but they are not... they either have a splitter that sends the keyboard signal to multiple PCs.... or they run a wireless keyboard using 5 recievers all tuned to the same frequency... they control the cleric in a normal fashion... and ONE wizard... the other 4 wizards all do the same thing as the first wizard because the signal is split to all 5 wizards.</p><p>Bots are macros... things that play the game for you... this is just an interesting use of hardware.</p><p>Keep in mind in EQ2 group diversity is what makes it strong... your buffs will not stack from 5 wizards... you take a pretty big hit from running a group like this.</p><p>I have been on some multi-boxing forums... and I can tell you these people are not all like me... some of them do it for the thrill of the difficulty and the intelligence behind the design of the hardware.  I see very few people running "macros" or "scripts"... they mostly spend a ton of money on specialized hardware to make it easier to accomplish....</p><p>like say 6 widescreen LCDs and special hardware to mount them in an "array" or the keyboard splitter thing... or the wireless keyboard trick... or specialized game pads so that you can get the needed controls in a smaller space (because 6 keyboards and mice take alot of room and get confusing) and even software or hardware that allows your 1 keyboard and mouse to switch between PCs.</p><p>You might be suprised... but they even make foot pedals for people like us... so that you can do 2-3 things with your feet because you ran out of hands.... no joke.  It's not cheap though... I use all standard controls and stick to just 3 PCs... my hardware could use some upgrading (although not terrible) because I'm on a "married to a non-gamer" budget.</p><p>Ironically when 3 boxing one day in PoA I wiped out... (whoops!) and some chineese plat farmer walks up and rezzes me... asked my tank if I was "the hit boss" I got a good laugh out of it... he had been watching me and thought I was like him... woke me up to the number of other people who think I am like him too (my main toon has a japaneese name... skoshi = tiny... which is funny because he is an ogre).  I am not like him though... I needed some gold to pay for repairs after a bad raid night... I don't sell gold... and I USUALLY often have less than 10 plat across 3 accts.  I farm 100% manually controlled... and that's why I occasionally wipe ;-p  Although I hear the scripts aren't much better and often perform worse.  It's a complex game... thinking that a script can handle all the oddities of combat is unrealistic.. lets see a bot cure trauma... lets see it mez... lets see it know when to do AE and when not to.  Bots are not the answer... but man is it alot of work to do it manual... sometimes I log out because it's just too much for me to handle after a long day at work.</p>

[Mishkel]

<p>Actually I guess after reading the original post its a tad confusing.</p><p>Every MMO I've played that had a group system has had 'bad' or 'disruptive' players.  Call them bad playes, ninja looters or whatever... I'm not sure how any of the that experience evolved into "it must be a plat farmer".</p><p>When I'm in groups its pretty much always need before greed.  If no one needs an item its a "random".  You can invite a person who speaks perfect english to a group that will violate the "group rules".  That has nothing to do with country of origin or their language.</p><p>If you explain the "group rules" to someone and they don't follow them... simple answer is.. boot them from the group.</p><p>I understand the current "anti farmer" crusade.. but players like this (english or not) have been around as long as multi player games.</p>

[jazzy_]

All I have to say to this is: zhang guan li dai. (to confuse one thing with another) =)

[roces9]

Okay, I'm the OP and apparantly I did not express my ideas clearly. I was in a group with two (clearly) non English speakers one of whom (imo) was clearly in the group to just farm treasured crap and pages. I don't mind grouping with non English speakers as long as they play their role well. However, the guy who I thought was Farming was breaking mezes and not assisting in general, ninjaing pages that we had set aside to roll on later and then looted a shiney that killed us. He was promptly booted. My guildmate and one other groupie called the guy a "POS botter" and said how glad they were that "that f'ing botter" finally got kicked. My problem is that in this group (and in the 60-69 channel and on these forums) people often flame people that just farm (legally or otherwise) or who multi-box as "Botters". Botting is using 3rd party software or illegal Macros to affect gameplay in a way that does not require a player at the keyboard. Multi-boxing, is legal, farming is legal, monopolizing spawns and selling your earnings to third parties is *not* legal, but is *not* "Botting". I don't hate Chinese people, I don't condone illegal farming or plat selling and I don't really care if you're boxing as long as you get the job done. What I do hate is when people call farmers and boxers "Botters". It's like when my 13 year old cousin calls my sister "[Removed for Content]" or a "[Removed for Content]". Please use your terms right.

[simpwrx02]

Nembutal wrote: <blockquote><p> Actually.... you are pretty close... botters are also often 1 cleric-type with 6 wizards... no tank needed because everything dies so fast (they farm greens or non-heroics... so little tanking required.)</p><p>But not all of those players are illegal... and not all are bad people.</p><p>Some people running that set-up LOOK like bots... but they are not... they either have a splitter that sends the keyboard signal to multiple PCs.... or they run a wireless keyboard using 5 recievers all tuned to the same frequency... they control the cleric in a normal fashion... and ONE wizard... the other 4 wizards all do the same thing as the first wizard because the signal is split to all 5 wizards.</p><p>Bots are macros... things that play the game for you... this is just an interesting use of hardware.</p><p>Keep in mind in EQ2 group diversity is what makes it strong... your buffs will not stack from 5 wizards... you take a pretty big hit from running a group like this.</p><p>I have been on some multi-boxing forums... and I can tell you these people are not all like me... some of them do it for the thrill of the difficulty and the intelligence behind the design of the hardware.  I see very few people running "macros" or "scripts"... they mostly spend a ton of money on specialized hardware to make it easier to accomplish....</p><p>like say 6 widescreen LCDs and special hardware to mount them in an "array" or the keyboard splitter thing... or the wireless keyboard trick... or specialized game pads so that you can get the needed controls in a smaller space (because 6 keyboards and mice take alot of room and get confusing) and even software or hardware that allows your 1 keyboard and mouse to switch between PCs.</p><p>You might be suprised... but they even make foot pedals for people like us... so that you can do 2-3 things with your feet because you ran out of hands.... no joke.  It's not cheap though... I use all standard controls and stick to just 3 PCs... my hardware could use some upgrading (although not terrible) because I'm on a "married to a non-gamer" budget.</p><p>Ironically when 3 boxing one day in PoA I wiped out... (whoops!) and some chineese plat farmer walks up and rezzes me... asked my tank if I was "the hit boss" I got a good laugh out of it... he had been watching me and thought I was like him... woke me up to the number of other people who think I am like him too (my main toon has a japaneese name... skoshi = tiny... which is funny because he is an ogre).  I am not like him though... I needed some gold to pay for repairs after a bad raid night... I don't sell gold... and I USUALLY often have less than 10 plat across 3 accts.  I farm 100% manually controlled... and that's why I occasionally wipe ;-p  Although I hear the scripts aren't much better and often perform worse.  It's a complex game... thinking that a script can handle all the oddities of combat is unrealistic.. lets see a bot cure trauma... lets see it mez... lets see it know when to do AE and when not to.  Bots are not the answer... but man is it alot of work to do it manual... sometimes I log out because it's just too much for me to handle after a long day at work.</p></blockquote><p> I totally agree which is why I added the part about the people on auto follow constantly being interupted due to macros that is the dead give away for bots,  another way I find bots is I see player x runing around aimlessly targeting and attacking mobs, no big deal it happens all the time, but I notice that even if I am attacking a mob close to him he will target my mob and start attacking it.  If this happens more than once I will see if he will kill himself as the bot will since a programs has no concept of health or power adn it is easy to overwhelm them with mobs.</p>

[Laoch69]

<p>The term "Botter" and "Farmer" get thrown around way, way too much.  And they get used in place of what should be "2-boxing, 3-boxing" etc, which is perfectly legal.</p><p>Farming, is also completely legal.  We all farm, whether we are harvesting or killing things for items, that is "farming".</p><p>Someone using a 3rd party "illegal" program, well then yes, they deserve the title of "bot" <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Vatec]

<cite>simpwrx02 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Sorry if I am able to spot a plat farmer from looking at thier gear, but mostly on my server we knwo most of them by name.  If it is a wizzy has no guild or a guild you have never heard of with an anon tag... they might be a farmer.  if his gear is specced for max wards and clearly has taken the sta AA line ... they might be a farmer.  if his profile says  "i am young american girls"... they migh tbe a farmer.   If he spends all his time outside of groups farming the isle of aversion in Barren Sky with lfg tag up.... they might be a farmer,  if he spends all of his time going from one named mob to the other in Bonemier or TT they might be a farmer.  If they have a randomly generated name that has way to many non vowels in a row.. they might be a farmer.  If they have 30+ masters on the broker at any given time ....  they might be a farmer.  </p><p>It really is pretty easy to determine who a farmer is 99 times out of 100.  Personally I have no problem grouping with people who cant speak god english.  If you speak french why woudl you play ion an english only server, if you speak german why woudl you play on an english only server, if you speak japanese or chinesese why woudl you play on  an english server,  each of those languages has thier own servers.  Take the blindfold off from over your eyes not everythign is super PC, it is called reality ( yes I know wierd word for a MMORPG). Hmm let me play a game that has indept stories and discriptions in a language that I dont understand yeah thats it  /rolleyes.</p><p> And Darsat a bot is even easy to spot you see one player aka tank running around with a few sorcerers and a helaer all on auto follow mainly in the areas with large amounts of non herioc mobs.  and if you look at your combat logs when you are near them you will see all the mages and healer gettign constantly interupted as they run as they are on spell macro repeats.  And I woudl gladly burn them I woudl gladly kill them over and over again in the game if I was able to.  </p><p>Even your hesistation in kicking the farmer cost you, then again maybe he was just a misunderstood person from China trying to get a collection finished to get one more quest completed in his journal.  You just deprived him of his last collection item how do you feel now.</p><p><a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/farmers-almanac/7169-field-guide-plat-farmers-updated-eof.html" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.eq2flames.com/farmers-al...pdated-eof.html</a> here is a good guide if you want to read it.</p></blockquote>Then you would probably think I was a farmer.  After all, I belong to a small guild you've never heard of, I'm a Ranger with AGI/STA/Pathfinding/Escape AAs, have no description whatsoever in my biography, and frequently spend time traveling from named to named killing them for loot because nameds are the only worthwhile things to hunt when I solo. I guess you're a firm believer in one of the mottos from Dawn of War:  "An open mind is a fortress with its gates open and unbarred." And FWIW, the stories in EQ2 are not really all that in-depth and most people I know just click through all the dialog so they can get to the quest update and move on with their lives.  So it really wouldn't matter if they could read English or not.  When EQ2's writing reaches the point that it's half as good as the lore from Asheron's Call and Shadowbane, I'll be impressed.

[Guy De Alsace]

<p>Sometimes a player might be someone's son/daughter and the parents have switched off the chat channels (wise thing to do IMO). One of the players in my last guild used to let his 6 year old run around killing random mobs and harvesting nodes and stuff and would always leave all chat channels and switch off all chat windows when doing so. </p><p>In my experience you need to take some time gathering evidence before you petition. </p>

[Cadori Seraphim]

<cite>Laoch69 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The term "Botter" and "Farmer" get thrown around way, way too much.  And they get used in place of what should be "2-boxing, 3-boxing" etc, which is perfectly legal.</p><p>Farming, is also completely legal.  We all farm, whether we are harvesting or killing things for items, that is "farming".</p><p>Someone using a 3rd party "illegal" program, well then yes, they deserve the title of "bot" <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote><span style="color: #9900ff">^  QTF!!</span>

[simpwrx02]

<cite>Vatec wrote:</cite><blockquote>Then you would probably think I was a farmer.  After all, I belong to a small guild you've never heard of, I'm a Ranger with AGI/STA/Pathfinding/Escape AAs, have no description whatsoever in my biography, and frequently spend time traveling from named to named killing them for loot because nameds are the only worthwhile things to hunt when I solo. I guess you're a firm believer in one of the mottos from Dawn of War:  "An open mind is a fortress with its gates open and unbarred." And FWIW, the stories in EQ2 are not really all that in-depth and most people I know just click through all the dialog so they can get to the quest update and move on with their lives.  So it really wouldn't matter if they could read English or not.  When EQ2's writing reaches the point that it's half as good as the lore from Asheron's Call and Shadowbane, I'll be impressed. </blockquote><p> I would never think a ranger is a farmer it is just not the righ tclass to effectively solo mobs at lvl 70, not saying that it can not be done, but I woudl be impressed to see a ranger solo the names in Bonemier.  Since rangers need room to kite that the T7 named in bonemier. lets just say have a good amount of health and lots of adds near by.  Plat farmers do not pick scout classes from what I have seen as they do not become really good at soloing named untill they have fabled gear and that would require a raid.  Almost all solo name killers are wizards and a few necros saw a conj farmer for a bit, but it looks like he got banned pretty shortly after he really started farming.  </p><p>As far as guild I base that mainly on a dps class runing with an anon tag, I understand healers and mezzers with anon so they do not get random tells/ninja invites.  But any other dps class in a guild that dosent compete for contested raid mobs with an anon tag is an imediate flag for me, also if you are less than 70 anon will make it so you will not show up on any lfg search that has any type of restrictions aka level.  A lot of the plat farmers run with anon tags up so that the few people on the server who love to kill and harass them do not know where they are.</p><p>The epic quest lines all have very detailed and indept story lines that spam many quests, claymore is actually some what amuzing if you read it and it has around 30 quests.</p><p>Sure I have an open mind but i also have a thinking mind and do not follow all of the sheepish PC BS, just because you have sterotypes dose not make you a bad person.  If you say you have no sterotypes on people then you sir are a liar.  I do not like grouping with people who do not speak english for a few reason: 1 comunication this is key to groups.  2 I like to have fun in groups and enjoy talking with every one that is in my group, as you can get any 6 people and clear virtually any instance in the game with no wipes. 3.) well I think every thign follows comunication.   A majority of the legetimate people who do not speak english as a primary language are normally in a guild together, I know there are both a Polish and Italian guild on my server at the very least.</p><p>I am sorry if you set yourself up for failure by turnign off all chat and lettign yoru 6 year old play, granted there is nothing wrong with this, but preception is 90% of reality and if a GM were to send you kid a tell while he was playing and got no response what do you think the result would be?   I am not saying there is anythign wrong with your kid playing and I totally understand turning off the chat windows, just think about the results. A GM sending tells with no responce but your character continues to run around killing things and harvesting nodes  the GM will think it is a 3rd party program.</p>

[Jesdyr]

Just WOW ... Many people have no idea what they are talking about .. a BOT is a PROGRAM that playes the game without any input from the player. It is a scripted program that plays without user input. Most bots will react to external input (normaly based on log file and/or screen scraping) and trigger various scripts based on these events. Macroing is NOT Botting. Macroing is scripting and is acceptable provided you are not unattended playing. There are many forms of macros from the basic in-game macros to the external macro programs used by things like the G15 keyboard or the Nostromo gamepads. These programs let you make command chains triggered from one button press. This is legal. There are also hardware macro devices out there that record keystrokes and send them to the PC (legal and cannot be detected at all).  The difference between a macro and a bot is that Bots do not require input from the user. AFK killing (without the use of Bots or macros) is also against the EULA. This is basicly killing MOBs with autoattack (pets) while AFK. Yes .. I 3-box using 3 PCs .. I use a G15 and 2 Nostromos plus a KVM connected to the 2 alt boxes for switching KB and Mouse. Yes I use small Spell chain macros and Auto-follow to control the 2 alts as well as a pull chain on the main.  I sometime use external macro's while only playing 1 character just because it is easier. 

[simpwrx02]

<cite>JesDer wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just WOW ... Many people have no idea what they are talking about .. a BOT is a PROGRAM that playes the game without any input from the player. It is a scripted program that plays without user input. Most bots will react to external input (normaly based on log file and/or screen scraping) and trigger various scripts based on these events. Macroing is NOT Botting. Macroing is scripting and is acceptable provided you are not unattended playing. There are many forms of macros from the basic in-game macros to the external macro programs used by things like the G15 keyboard or the Nostromo gamepads. These programs let you make command chains triggered from one button press. This is legal. There are also hardware macro devices out there that record keystrokes and send them to the PC (legal and cannot be detected at all).  The difference between a macro and a bot is that Bots do not require input from the user. </blockquote><p>I am guessing this is for me, sorry if I didnt use the word scripting, but do you constantly press your macros every few seconds eben while moving, I think not,  I am pretty simple minded as far as computer programing goes, so I simplied and said macros, how ever a macro that repeats itself over and over again I guess you woudl call a script.</p><p>I know the difference between the 2 it isnt a hard concept....  bot is character that is not controlled by a person but instead a computer program.</p><p>I am pretty sure SoE frowns upon macros that do more than triggereing 2 spells or they would have put a pause function into thier game macros or a command "wait until above step has completed to perfrom next step".  That woudl make my life easier as I normally cast in the exact same spell order every fight. I would be able to macro an entire fight and just hit one button them watch TV, it may not be the best since I would not be able to adjust it based on fight flow, but it woudl still be good enough to get by. </p>

[Viemzee]

<cite>simpwrx02 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>EQ2 is a great game, and we would all love to see it go worldwide for everyone else to play... however, that is not the case. By level 70, you expect some type of common descency even in the case of the person with the least amount of english knowledge. The person described by the OP is  clearly a player from another country, or a child. Overall, I have grouped with people like that a few times. Most of the time, they are really good players making an honest attempt at the game. There was one case, and one case only, in which I saw the person didn't care about the well-being of the group, and was more interested in self gain. In that case, I just promptly booted the person, with an fully typed up explanation as to why. If he went ahead and passed that by a translator, he would probably agree, or curse me out... either way, it wasn't my problem after that.</p><p>9/10 the person from the other nation that is playing the game, doesn't mean you any harm, and is just having a tough time fitting in with the game. If you do get that 1/10 chance though, I suggest you just boot the person form the group and move on. </p></blockquote>The game is world wide with servers in multible countries using different languages,  there are German, French and Japanese servers at the very least. </blockquote><p> [Removed for Content] !!! You are right, that does cover the ENTIRE spectrum of language in the world. Even tough 1 out of 6 people in the world speaks chineese...</p><p> /sarcasm off</p>

[StormCinder]

<p>"You may not decrypt or modify any data transmitted between client and server and you may not use, post, host or distribute <b>macros</b>, "bots" or other programs which would allow unattended game play <b><u>or</u> which otherwise impact game play</b>."</p><p>I'd generously call the external macro argument in favor of boxing a gray-area in the ToS.</p><p>From the RoC:</p><p>"15. You may not use any software or <b>hardware</b> to alter game play in any way, or to gain benefits from unattended game play."</p><p>Hmmm...</p><p>I agree with the OP that there are definite differences between the types of play described in the thread: Boxing, Botting, Farming and Pharming.</p><p>Boxing:  Using separate machines to run separate accounts.  Allowed; However, I disagree with the reply that says the use of 3d party macros and hardware is "ok." </p><p>Botting: Using 3d party software, macros or hardware to permit unattended play. Not allowed.</p><p>Farming:  Harvesting/killing a lot of stuff and selling it to make <b>in-game</b> money.  Allowed: As long as you are not causing disruption to players attempting to complete quests or otherwise interfering with someone elses gameplay.</p><p>Pharming: Harvesting/killing a lot of stuff and selling it to/for 3d party sites for realworld money (notwithstanding Exchange servers).  Not Allowed.</p><p>I would /report or /petition anyone I suspected of violating the above disallowed rules after attempting to resolve the situation in-game.</p><p>SC</p><p>PS  2 things: </p><p>1) Most importantly, another term that gets thrown around willy-nilly is "illegal."  The above conduct is not "illegal."  It's against the rules.  Pretty much the most SOE can/will do in terms of enforcement is ban an account.</p><p>2)  I anticipate a debate regarding "unattended play."  And I believe the definition IS debatable.  Before you flame me for my interpretation (using one piece of hardware to split a signal in order to control multiple toons is "unattended play&quot<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> please keep in mind that I rarely check back into threads that I post to.</p>

[Dionysoz]

So what do they call it when I put a box of cookies on top of my keyboard and tell my kids they can eat all they want as long as they play this fun new game I have for them. It is called "Find the Goblin". They have to run around and pick up every root, rock, log, bush they find on the ground to find the "Hiding Goblin" hiding behind them. /they still have not found him //but I tell them he is there just have to keep looking. ///kids are so cute <img src="/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Ama]

<p>Have to say the best thing for the OP to do in that kind of situation is just be strict.  Warn him/her to stop what they are doing ninja looting and all on items they can't use.  After a 2nd warning just kick em out of the group, wonder off and die.  If they try to train you then ya can petition them for abusive behavior after you warned them to stop ninja looting items.  </p><p>Problem is "Farming" is a broad term which sadly EULA doesn't recognize or says "Is Legal".  Only time it becomes "Illegal" is when you have 3rd party applications running your toons and zone disruption/abusive behavior towards other players.  </p>

[roces9]

<cite>StormCinder wrote:</cite><blockquote>Farming:  Harvesting/killing a lot of stuff and selling it to make <b>in-game</b> money.  Allowed: As long as you are not causing disruption to players attempting to complete quests or otherwise interfering with someone elses gameplay.<p>Pharming: Harvesting/killing a lot of stuff and selling it to/for 3d party sites for realworld money (notwithstanding Exchange servers).  Not Allowed.</p></blockquote> I saw some one else do it earlier, but I like how you discern via alternate spellins the "good" and "bad" kinds of F(ph)arming. My only problem is with the "Ph" kind that dissrupt gameplay and effects the market economy. <blockquote>1) Most importantly, another term that gets thrown around willy-nilly is "illegal."  The above conduct is not "illegal."  It's against the rules.  Pretty much the most SOE can/will do in terms of enforcement is ban an account.</blockquote> Yeah, that term is a little ambiguous. People usually denoting something as "Illegal" when they presume that everyone can consider the terms of the EULA as the "law" and anything actions/things that violates the EULA is "illegal". You're right, it is not a clear term but I think most people that read these forums would get the idea and you're splitting hairs there. PS: I don't care how often you check back =-P

[Vatec]

<cite>simpwrx02 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vatec wrote:</cite><blockquote>Then you would probably think I was a farmer.  After all, I belong to a small guild you've never heard of, I'm a Ranger with AGI/STA/Pathfinding/Escape AAs, have no description whatsoever in my biography, and frequently spend time traveling from named to named killing them for loot because nameds are the only worthwhile things to hunt when I solo. I guess you're a firm believer in one of the mottos from Dawn of War:  "An open mind is a fortress with its gates open and unbarred." And FWIW, the stories in EQ2 are not really all that in-depth and most people I know just click through all the dialog so they can get to the quest update and move on with their lives.  So it really wouldn't matter if they could read English or not.  When EQ2's writing reaches the point that it's half as good as the lore from Asheron's Call and Shadowbane, I'll be impressed. </blockquote><p> I would never think a ranger is a farmer it is just not the righ tclass to effectively solo mobs at lvl 70, not saying that it can not be done, but I woudl be impressed to see a ranger solo the names in Bonemier.  Since rangers need room to kite that the T7 named in bonemier. lets just say have a good amount of health and lots of adds near by.  Plat farmers do not pick scout classes from what I have seen as they do not become really good at soloing named untill they have fabled gear and that would require a raid.  Almost all solo name killers are wizards and a few necros saw a conj farmer for a bit, but it looks like he got banned pretty shortly after he really started farming.  </p><p>As far as guild I base that mainly on a dps class runing with an anon tag, I understand healers and mezzers with anon so they do not get random tells/ninja invites.  But any other dps class in a guild that dosent compete for contested raid mobs with an anon tag is an imediate flag for me, also if you are less than 70 anon will make it so you will not show up on any lfg search that has any type of restrictions aka level.  A lot of the plat farmers run with anon tags up so that the few people on the server who love to kill and harass them do not know where they are.</p><span style="color: #990000">I keep Anon on 100% of the time.  I also have Accept Group invitations turned off unless I have specific plans to join a group of friends.  I simply don't like random attempts at conversation from total strangers.  I also turn chat channels off unless I'm looking for people to add to a group I've already joined.  Furthermore, with one exception, everyone on my Friends list has the Anon tag turned on as well.</span> <p>The epic quest lines all have very detailed and indept story lines that spam many quests, claymore is actually some what amuzing if you read it and it has around 30 quests.</p><span style="color: #990000">If you haven't played Asheron's Call or Shadowbane, you don't know the level of the competition.  EQ/EQ2's lore is derivative and shallow by comparison.  If there was ever a generic fantasy world, Norrath is it.  And while some few quests may rise above the rest, most are so silly (you just intuitively =know= that if you kill 10 carrion gorgers, you'll find another missing page to your book) that I feel I've lost brain cells if I bother reading the text.  Maybe I'm just an elitist, but the quests are one of EQ2's =low= points.</span> <p>Sure I have an open mind but i also have a thinking mind and do not follow all of the sheepish PC BS, just because you have sterotypes dose not make you a bad person.  If you say you have no sterotypes on people then you sir are a liar.  I do not like grouping with people who do not speak english for a few reason: 1 comunication this is key to groups.  2 I like to have fun in groups and enjoy talking with every one that is in my group, as you can get any 6 people and clear virtually any instance in the game with no wipes. 3.) well I think every thign follows comunication.   A majority of the legetimate people who do not speak english as a primary language are normally in a guild together, I know there are both a Polish and Italian guild on my server at the very least.</p><p><span style="color: #990000">Sure, I have stereotypes.  And the first thing I do when I meet someone who might fit those stereotypes is look for evidence that they don't.  I've found this to be a very useful strategy in my life....</span> </p><p>I am sorry if you set yourself up for failure by turnign off all chat and lettign yoru 6 year old play, granted there is nothing wrong with this, but preception is 90% of reality and if a GM were to send you kid a tell while he was playing and got no response what do you think the result would be?   I am not saying there is anythign wrong with your kid playing and I totally understand turning off the chat windows, just think about the results. A GM sending tells with no responce but your character continues to run around killing things and harvesting nodes  the GM will think it is a 3rd party program.</p><p><span style="color: #990000">Actually, I suspect letting a six-year-old play is probably against the EULA.  Besides, I personally can't understand why a parent would think that it's perfectly OK for a child to play a game which consists primarily of murdering sentient creatures in order to take their possessions.  /shrug</span></p></blockquote>

[TerriBlades]

<cite>simpwrx02 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vatec wrote:</cite><blockquote>Then you would probably think I was a farmer.  After all, I belong to a small guild you've never heard of, I'm a Ranger with AGI/STA/Pathfinding/Escape AAs, have no description whatsoever in my biography, and frequently spend time traveling from named to named killing them for loot because nameds are the only worthwhile things to hunt when I solo. I guess you're a firm believer in one of the mottos from Dawn of War:  "An open mind is a fortress with its gates open and unbarred." And FWIW, the stories in EQ2 are not really all that in-depth and most people I know just click through all the dialog so they can get to the quest update and move on with their lives.  So it really wouldn't matter if they could read English or not.  When EQ2's writing reaches the point that it's half as good as the lore from Asheron's Call and Shadowbane, I'll be impressed. </blockquote><p> I would never think a ranger is a farmer it is just not the righ tclass to effectively solo mobs at lvl 70, not saying that it can not be done, but I woudl be impressed to see a ranger solo the names in Bonemier.  Since rangers need room to kite that the T7 named in bonemier. lets just say have a good amount of health and lots of adds near by.  Plat farmers do not pick scout classes from what I have seen as they do not become really good at soloing named untill they have fabled gear and that would require a raid.  Almost all solo name killers are wizards and a few necros saw a conj farmer for a bit, but it looks like he got banned pretty shortly after he really started farming.  </p></blockquote><p>Rangers need a lot less room then you thing. Kiting a mob doesnt mean I need 50m worth of space to down a named. Tops I need 10m and both my roots. If using a stun poison, less then that. Tell you what. Come to Oasis and I'll gladly show you a ranger that can solo the names in Bonemire. </p><p>Anyways...Someone else mentioned that being a farmer isnt bad, and while I agree with that. When you are farming for coin just to turn around and sell it, then it IS wrong.  And its quite easy to spot a plat farmer. Names, Gear, go along way. Usually only further confirmed by the fact that person will have at least25 masters listed at any given time along with other assorted junk. And while it may not be 100% accurate, Id be willing to bet its close to if not over 95%.</p><p>Petitioning does go a long way to hinder their progress though. Must suck having to reroll wizzys all the time.<img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p>

[erin]

<cite>JesDer wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just WOW ... Many people have no idea what they are talking about .. a BOT is a PROGRAM that playes the game without any input from the player. It is a scripted program that plays without user input. Most bots will react to external input (normaly based on log file and/or screen scraping) and trigger various scripts based on these events. Macroing is NOT Botting. Macroing is scripting and is acceptable provided you are not unattended playing. There are many forms of macros from the basic in-game macros to the external macro programs used by things like the G15 keyboard or the Nostromo gamepads. These programs let you make command chains triggered from one button press. This is legal. There are also hardware macro devices out there that record keystrokes and send them to the PC (legal and cannot be detected at all).  The difference between a macro and a bot is that Bots do not require input from the user. AFK killing (without the use of Bots or macros) is also against the EULA. This is basicly killing MOBs with autoattack (pets) while AFK. Yes .. I 3-box using 3 PCs .. I use a G15 and 2 Nostromos plus a KVM connected to the 2 alt boxes for switching KB and Mouse. Yes I use small Spell chain macros and Auto-follow to control the 2 alts as well as a pull chain on the main.  I sometime use external macro's while only playing 1 character just because it is easier.  </blockquote>Macroing is acceptable as long as its the in-game macros.  What you are doing with your Nostromos is against the EULA, I have no doubt in my mind.  Unless you are pushing the macro button on your keypad every time that you kick it off, you are botting.  As in, you are not controlling the character yourself.  Now, if you simply have a macro set up and push the button each time, that's a different story. Botting isn't just a completely computer controlled character, its a non-human played character, which is what you are describing that you do.

[erin]

<cite>simpwrx02 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>As far as guild I base that mainly on a dps class runing with an anon tag, I understand healers and mezzers with anon so they do not get random tells/ninja invites.  But any other dps class in a guild that dosent compete for contested raid mobs with an anon tag is an imediate flag for me, also if you are less than 70 anon will make it so you will not show up on any lfg search that has any type of restrictions aka level.  A lot of the plat farmers run with anon tags up so that the few people on the server who love to kill and harass them do not know where they are.</p></blockquote>Nearly half the game, maybe more, are anon these days trying to avoid plat spammers.  For many it seems to work.  Don't assume anon=farmer.  I used to also feel that healers had the most legit reason to be anon, that's just not true anymore. And are you serious?  "any other dps class in a guild that doesn't compete for contested raid mobs with an anon tag is an immediate flag for me"????  are you kidding?  Most of the players in this game don't compete for contested, many are in guilds you've never heard of.  That raises a flag for you, just because they are anon?  Wow.

[liveja]

<cite>erin wrote:</cite><blockquote>Nearly half the game, maybe more, are anon these days trying to avoid plat spammers.  </blockquote><p>At least on Mistmoore, this no longer seems to be true: I see far more people who are not /anon or /roleplay, than who are.</p>

[Jesdyr]

erin wrote: <blockquote>Macroing is acceptable as long as its the in-game macros.  What you are doing with your Nostromos is against the EULA, I have no doubt in my mind.  Unless you are pushing the macro button on your keypad every time that you kick it off, you are botting.  As in, you are not controlling the character yourself.  Now, if you simply have a macro set up and push the button each time, that's a different story. Botting isn't just a completely computer controlled character, its a non-human played character, which is what you are describing that you do. </blockquote> Actually no ... I have one button that hits a hotkey to assist and then casts 1-4 spells in a chain.  I am pushing buttons every single time I just push on avg 30% of the buttons that I would need to manually. These are not spell loops they are simply non-repeating keystroke macros. The character doesnt do a thing without me telling it too.... And you are missing one KEY part that makes something a BOT. It must react to external input without user interaction.  If it does not do this is a script which if unattended is just as bad but still not a bot. I have a friend who 6 boxes and has had GMs watch him play and talk to him about how he is setup. This is perfectly acceptable.

[simpwrx02]

Nesse@Oasis wrote: <blockquote><cite>simpwrx02 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vatec wrote:</cite><blockquote>Then you would probably think I was a farmer.  After all, I belong to a small guild you've never heard of, I'm a Ranger with AGI/STA/Pathfinding/Escape AAs, have no description whatsoever in my biography, and frequently spend time traveling from named to named killing them for loot because nameds are the only worthwhile things to hunt when I solo. I guess you're a firm believer in one of the mottos from Dawn of War:  "An open mind is a fortress with its gates open and unbarred." And FWIW, the stories in EQ2 are not really all that in-depth and most people I know just click through all the dialog so they can get to the quest update and move on with their lives.  So it really wouldn't matter if they could read English or not.  When EQ2's writing reaches the point that it's half as good as the lore from Asheron's Call and Shadowbane, I'll be impressed. </blockquote><p> I would never think a ranger is a farmer it is just not the righ tclass to effectively solo mobs at lvl 70, not saying that it can not be done, but I woudl be impressed to see a ranger solo the names in Bonemier.  Since rangers need room to kite that the T7 named in bonemier. lets just say have a good amount of health and lots of adds near by.  Plat farmers do not pick scout classes from what I have seen as they do not become really good at soloing named untill they have fabled gear and that would require a raid.  Almost all solo name killers are wizards and a few necros saw a conj farmer for a bit, but it looks like he got banned pretty shortly after he really started farming.  </p></blockquote><p>Rangers need a lot less room then you thing. Kiting a mob doesnt mean I need 50m worth of space to down a named. Tops I need 10m and both my roots. If using a stun poison, less then that. Tell you what. Come to Oasis and I'll gladly show you a ranger that can solo the names in Bonemire. </p><p>Anyways...Someone else mentioned that being a farmer isnt bad, and while I agree with that. When you are farming for coin just to turn around and sell it, then it IS wrong.  And its quite easy to spot a plat farmer. Names, Gear, go along way. Usually only further confirmed by the fact that person will have at least25 masters listed at any given time along with other assorted junk. And while it may not be 100% accurate, Id be willing to bet its close to if not over 95%.</p><p>Petitioning does go a long way to hinder their progress though. Must suck having to reroll wizzys all the time.<img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p></blockquote><p>Yes Rangers with mostly fabled gear and the rigid scale longbow should be able to solo names, I mean you should be able to get 10K+ crits from auto attack and average close to 3-4k on non crits is my guess.  I was mostly refering to  a potential for a "pharmer" being a ranger is very rare.   I also solo the named in Bonemier, but I am mostly fabled as well and nearly fully mastered.</p><p>And I totally agree every one farms for thier coin, you make very valid points, I personally do not understand why people can not figure out the basic gear makeup of a "pharmer" and must argue the fact trying to show how PC they are, most of us live in societies where you can speak your mind, granted certain things go to far, such as racial slurs.  I dont even know how many things I have held back on this site or had to retype due to the site rules.  I would love to see some of these posters make the same statements on flames <img src="/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</p>

[roces9]

Call me crazy, but I thought that *all* External macros were against the EULA, not just the ones that are "repeating" and "reactive" or what have you. From my understanding the combination of your keyobard/mouse splitting and your External Macros to make 3-boxing "easier" makes you a Botter. But I could be wrong. Isn't 3-boxing *supposed* to be hard?

[simpwrx02]

<cite>erin wrote:</cite><blockquote>Nearly half the game, maybe more, are anon these days trying to avoid plat spammers.  For many it seems to work.  Don't assume anon=farmer.  I used to also feel that healers had the most legit reason to be anon, that's just not true anymore. And are you serious?  "any other dps class in a guild that doesn't compete for contested raid mobs with an anon tag is an immediate flag for me"????  are you kidding?  Most of the players in this game don't compete for contested, many are in guilds you've never heard of.  That raises a flag for you, just because they are anon?  Wow. </blockquote><p> Sorry to burst your bubble, but both of my level 70s are anon and they both recieve plat spam all the time, even with the new spam filter in place.</p><p>Yes the anon tag on a dps is a flag for me, to investigate further, it is one of the actions that every single plat farmer on the server seems to do.  I have been around a while and know of a good amount of guilds on the blackburrow server, heck ( i hate the word filter) even some of the well known guilds have "pharmer infestation".  Another flag woudl be a randomly generated name, or a wierd name, it makes me want to inspect that person.  </p><p>Persoanly I do farm in the same locations as the "pharmers" sometimes when I need money quickly and I note who is there and how they are playing.  When I see a 70 wizzy with a crazy name no guild, anon, clearly specced the sta line because his mit is over 1700 pulling 8-10 (level 64 v ) mobs casting numbing cold then forge of Ro and just running around in circles to keep the mobs in the fire  yeah I inspect and make a call right then if I think they are a plat "pharmer".  The other thing is the fact that if I even try to go towards a mob on that isle they will pull as quickly as they can to ensure they have a lock on all of the mobs.</p>

[Jesdyr]

<cite>roces9 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Call me crazy, but I thought that *all* External macros were against the EULA, not just the ones that are "repeating" and "reactive" or what have you. From my understanding the combination of your keyobard/mouse splitting and your External Macros to make 3-boxing "easier" makes you a Botter. But I could be wrong. Isn't 3-boxing *supposed* to be hard?</blockquote> You should actually read the EULA and also learn what the term Bot actually means. To say I am a botter shows you have no idea what you are talking about. Exactly as it is in the EULA - <span style="color: #cc0000">"<span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial">You may not decrypt or modify any data transmitted between client and server and you may not use, post, host or distribute macros, “bots” or other programs which would allow unattended game play or which otherwise impact game play.</span>" </span> The key is Unattended play. My characters are all attended.

[roces9]

<cite>JesDer wrote:</cite><blockquote> Exactly as it is in the EULA - <span style="color: #cc0000">"<span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial">You may not decrypt or modify any data transmitted between client and server and you may not use, post, host or distribute macros, “bots” or other programs which would allow unattended game play or which otherwise impact game play.</span>" </span> The key is Unattended play. My characters are all attended. </blockquote> No, I read that. Please don't call some on ignorant because they disagree with you, that's just a poor way to argue. The key *as I understand* it is the part about: "you may not use... macros...or other programs...[that] otherwise impact gameplay". I'm not looking to get you banned or anything. But what I understood from your post is that you're using 3rd party hardware and 3rd party, external macros so that you only have to press 30% of the keys that I press when youre Boxing. That sounds like "otherwise impact[ing] gameplay" to me. But then again, I'm not a Dev or a lawyer or anything fancy like that, just another kid that plays Eq2.

[Jesdyr]

<cite>roces9 wrote:</cite><blockquote> No, I read that. Please don't call some on ignorant because they disagree with you, that's just a poor way to argue. </blockquote> I am not saying you are ignorant about how you view the EULA .. I am commenting on the misuse of the term bot. "Otherwise impact game play" is kind of open. This wording is normally used for exploit software (AimBots,wallhacks,speedhacks) anything that allows you to do something you normally would not be able to do in the game. This seems to be the way SoE is enforcing the rules and so this is the view I take. I am not worried about it. It has been stated the GMs have no issue with it, and unless I am told from them that what I am doing is wrong, then I am going to continue doing what I am doing.  I have never done any unattended play. I have reported many Conj/Necros for it (who were not even macroing). I in no way support botting or any form of unattended play.

[Naughtesn]

<cite>roces9 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Okay, I'm the OP and apparantly I did not express my ideas clearly. I was in a group with two (clearly) non English speakers one of whom (imo) was clearly in the group to just farm treasured crap and pages. I don't mind grouping with non English speakers as long as they play their role well. However, the guy who I thought was Farming was breaking mezes and not assisting in general, ninjaing pages that we had set aside to roll on later and then looted a shiney that killed us. He was promptly booted. My guildmate and one other groupie called the guy a "POS botter" and said how glad they were that "that f'ing botter" finally got kicked. My problem is that in this group (and in the 60-69 channel and on these forums) people often flame people that just farm (legally or otherwise) or who multi-box as "Botters". Botting is using 3rd party software or illegal Macros to affect gameplay in a way that does not require a player at the keyboard. Multi-boxing, is legal, farming is legal, monopolizing spawns and selling your earnings to third parties is *not* legal, but is *not* "Botting". I don't hate Chinese people, I don't condone illegal farming or plat selling and I don't really care if you're boxing as long as you get the job done. What I do hate is when people call farmers and boxers "Botters". It's like when my 13 year old cousin calls my sister "[Removed for Content]" or a "[I cannot control my vocabulary]". Please use your terms right. </blockquote>Um...I don't really care what term is used here - pharmer, botter - when used in context I think everyone knows what we are talking about.

[thebunny]

<cite>JesDer wrote:</cite><blockquote>I am not saying you are ignorant about how you view the EULA .. I am commenting on the misuse of the term bot. </blockquote><p>Although I am no lawyer, I would assume that the term bot is one that SOE can define however they want.  Since several portions of the EULA are somewhat open-ended when it comes to this subject, I don't know that anyone has a strict definition of what is and isn't considered a bot.  Therefore, you are incorrect in commenting on the "misuse" of the term bot, as you may be misusing it as well.</p><p>Now granted I don't think there's anything wrong with what you're doing based off of the EULA, but that's just my personal interpretation.  I think SOE's main target is unattended gameplay and hardware/software that enable you to take advantage of the system in ways you normally wouldn't be able to.  However, all of that is purely interpetation, and I could certainly be wrong.  For that reason, if I were in your shoes, I would personally ask a GM if what you are doing is within the rules.</p>

[thebunny]

<cite>Amana wrote:</cite><blockquote>Have to say the best thing for the OP to do in that kind of situation is just be strict.  Warn him/her to stop what they are doing ninja looting and all on items they can't use.  After a 2nd warning just kick em out of the group, wonder off and die.  If they try to train you then ya can petition them for abusive behavior after you warned them to stop ninja looting items.  </blockquote>Actually this brings up a point I never really thought about until recently.  On the rare occassion that I run across someone in a PUG that rolls on everything without regard to NBG, I'll first warn them to follow the rules of the group, and if they continue I will kick them.  However, how would this work in an instance where you can only have 6 people in the zone?  Not that you can't complete any instance in the game with less than 6 people, but I wonder how people deal with this type of situation. 

[simpwrx02]

<cite>thebunny wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Amana wrote:</cite><blockquote>Have to say the best thing for the OP to do in that kind of situation is just be strict.  Warn him/her to stop what they are doing ninja looting and all on items they can't use.  After a 2nd warning just kick em out of the group, wonder off and die.  If they try to train you then ya can petition them for abusive behavior after you warned them to stop ninja looting items.  </blockquote>Actually this brings up a point I never really thought about until recently.  On the rare occassion that I run across someone in a PUG that rolls on everything without regard to NBG, I'll first warn them to follow the rules of the group, and if they continue I will kick them.  However, how would this work in an instance where you can only have 6 people in the zone?  Not that you can't complete any instance in the game with less than 6 people, but I wonder how people deal with this type of situation. </blockquote> Any instance can be easily completed with only 5 people, odds are this ninja looter was a dps class so basically it will take a little longer, but still with in the groups ability to complete.

[Obviousman]

<p><span style="font-size: x-small; font-family: andale mono,times">I'm surprised how you can simply look at a mage and have immediate flags that he/she would be a botter. I'm a warlock and I specced for the extra mitigation, focus, disruption and the ability to stop damage in exchange for power. I max specced the Magi's Shielding achievement and wear the Shield of the Magi and what would I give to loot X'haviz' Gown of Glory. I care about lasting a few hits from heroic mobs instead from being one of the several thousand warlocks that want the few extra points of damage. I'm glad if I put on the role-playing label that you would consider reporting me for using illegal macros.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small; font-family: andale mono,times">In terms of having potential botters in groups, it doesn't matter who I group with, it's all a term of cooperation and communication. If any group is going to be successful, all the people have to follow the rules of common decency and proper playing. If someone rolls on a piece of loot that the leader established a NBG policy for, he/she is just being inconsiderate and deserves to be warned and/or booted. All that happens is a few items are lost and you have one guy on ignore. Is there any reason to force GM action on someone that might simply have poor language abilities and banish them from a game they pay the same price as you pay to play? The only people that should reasonably be considered reporting are the groups that constantly farm instance zones, hog all of the encounters in the zone and ruin gameplay for everyone.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small; font-family: andale mono,times">Besides, if you kick someone from an instance, can you just invite someone else to take his/her place? I'm sure someone will be interested in fighting an instance zone that's halfway completed.</span></p>

[roces9]

thebunny wrote:<blockquote>Actually this brings up a point I never really thought about until recently. On the rare occassion that I run across someone in a PUG that rolls on everything without regard to NBG, I'll first warn them to follow the rules of the group, and if they continue I will kick them. However, how would this work in an instance where you can only have 6 people in the zone? Not that you can't complete any instance in the game with less than 6 people, but I wonder how people deal with this type of situation. </blockquote> When I kicked the Pharming Wiz for looting a Shiny that killed the whole group, we all respawned at the begining of the instance. He was de-grouped by this time and kept /saying things like "Me be in group again!?" or "Ok, be listen now, plz!" all the while we were rebuffing and simply sent a message out in the channel saying where we were in the zone and instantly got people that wanted to replace him. The new person was in his house in Freeport so it took him about 15 minutes to get to Unrest all the while we were running back to, then clearing all the mobs that had spawned from the Shiney. Before the new guy ever stepped foot into the instance, the Pharmer was gone. Not sure what you could do if some one kicked refused to leave the group. I know in Guild Wars you couldn't kick some one once you started a mission and a lot of people would just join a group, /afk and do homework and get the Mission marked as completed and get the same amount of Exp that they would have from playing. But even if some one did refuse to leave... what could they do in a group instance full of ^^^s? EDIT: Formating pwns me today.

[Tremelle]

Generally any group I have ran with is usually need before greed and if someone did want a particular item, most people would give it up. This is never an issue when running with guildies, but in pugs there seems to be a 50/50 chance you will run in to the Ninja type that rolls on absolutely everything. As a general rule warning will be given and if it continues and I am group leader that person may find themselves out of the group. If it isn't my group, I may just leave and being that Fuse is usally the MT this can be harsh but necessary. I have seen some really rude people in this game and including people jumping on a harvesting node you are harvesting. But to take something that someone else needs is beyond rude, its unethical.

[erin]

<cite>thebunny wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Amana wrote:</cite><blockquote>Have to say the best thing for the OP to do in that kind of situation is just be strict.  Warn him/her to stop what they are doing ninja looting and all on items they can't use.  After a 2nd warning just kick em out of the group, wonder off and die.  If they try to train you then ya can petition them for abusive behavior after you warned them to stop ninja looting items.  </blockquote>Actually this brings up a point I never really thought about until recently.  On the rare occassion that I run across someone in a PUG that rolls on everything without regard to NBG, I'll first warn them to follow the rules of the group, and if they continue I will kick them.  However, how would this work in an instance where you can only have 6 people in the zone?  Not that you can't complete any instance in the game with less than 6 people, but I wonder how people deal with this type of situation. </blockquote>I roll on everything that isn't no-trade, as do most of the people I've PUGd with.  The assumption, always, is that if you need the item, you'll ask for it.  I will always hand it over.  I hate wasting time checking every single item, I tend to assume that by the time you are high 60s and 70, you no longer need adept 1s or tradeskill books or what have you, but that if you do, you'll say so.  If you warned me about it, I'd be fairly ticked at your 'tude, because I don't consider myself greedy, just time efficient.  Otherwise you stand around after each drop saying "anyone need? anyone? "  How often does someone actually claim an item in a NBG that isn't no-trade in your average instance group?  Out of all the drops, maybe twice, and that's a big maybe.

[TerriBlades]

<cite>Obviousman wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="font-size: x-small; font-family: andale mono,times">I'm surprised how you can simply look at a mage and have immediate flags that he/she would be a botter. I'm a warlock and I specced for the extra mitigation, focus, disruption and the ability to stop damage in exchange for power. I max specced the Magi's Shielding achievement and wear the Shield of the Magi and what would I give to loot X'haviz' Gown of Glory. I care about lasting a few hits from heroic mobs instead from being one of the several thousand warlocks that want the few extra points of damage. I'm glad if I put on the role-playing label that you would consider reporting me for using illegal macros.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small; font-family: andale mono,times">In terms of having potential botters in groups, it doesn't matter who I group with, it's all a term of cooperation and communication. If any group is going to be successful, all the people have to follow the rules of common decency and proper playing. If someone rolls on a piece of loot that the leader established a NBG policy for, he/she is just being inconsiderate and deserves to be warned and/or booted. All that happens is a few items are lost and you have one guy on ignore. Is there any reason to force GM action on someone that might simply have poor language abilities and banish them from a game they pay the same price as you pay to play? The only people that should reasonably be considered reporting are the groups that constantly farm instance zones, hog all of the encounters in the zone and ruin gameplay for everyone.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small; font-family: andale mono,times">Besides, if you kick someone from an instance, can you just invite someone else to take his/her place? I'm sure someone will be interested in fighting an instance zone that's halfway completed.</span></p></blockquote><p>First off, its fairly safe to say that your name probably isnt something like Olalkjsaf or Llasaioi or some other name thats totally unpronoucable. Thats your first clue, and its a pretty solid one at that. Most of them are runnin around in mastercrafted stuff, with everything else being treasured drops that they find. This part alone doesnt indicate that they are a plat farmer. As someone else posted they often run alone, anon, and are either guildless or in a guild you've never heard of. There are alot of things that go into the whole package that would help to define a plat farmer. Of course if you really want to see those farmers you should check out OoLS sometime. Quite common to find them in there. Follow them for about 20m. You'll watch them clear a room. Invis. Move to the next room, Clear. Basicly camping all the named in the zone for the masters to sell. Since OoLS isnt used very often by players, its a fairly safe place for them to do their thing. You can bet the last time I was in there I /petitioned the whole lot of them. Best part about that is adding them to your friends list to see they never log back in <img src="/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>As I said earlier, theres nothing wrong with farming plat, or masters for personal use. However, almost all of the time you run into someone that fits the above characteristic its a plat farmer thats only farming coin for the sole purpose of reselling it to players. Which promotes the plat seller spam (because of these farmers they have something to offer). Its also not good for the economy. And frankly, its not their intellectual property to sell. So yes, there are dozens of good reasons for petitioning these types of players. Dont buy into that "if I cant see it happening, then its not hurting anyone crap.." Zone disruption is a good reason to /petition a farmer, but farming plat to sell it to the player base is probably a better reason for it.</p>

[simpwrx02]

<cite>Obviousman wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="font-size: x-small; font-family: andale mono,times">I'm surprised how you can simply look at a mage and have immediate flags that he/she would be a botter. I'm a warlock and I specced for the extra mitigation, focus, disruption and the ability to stop damage in exchange for power. I max specced the Magi's Shielding achievement and wear the Shield of the Magi and what would I give to loot X'haviz' Gown of Glory. I care about lasting a few hits from heroic mobs instead from being one of the several thousand warlocks that want the few extra points of damage. I'm glad if I put on the role-playing label that you would consider reporting me for using illegal macros.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small; font-family: andale mono,times">In terms of having potential botters in groups, it doesn't matter who I group with, it's all a term of cooperation and communication. If any group is going to be successful, all the people have to follow the rules of common decency and proper playing. If someone rolls on a piece of loot that the leader established a NBG policy for, he/she is just being inconsiderate and deserves to be warned and/or booted. All that happens is a few items are lost and you have one guy on ignore. Is there any reason to force GM action on someone that might simply have poor language abilities and banish them from a game they pay the same price as you pay to play? The only people that should reasonably be considered reporting are the groups that constantly farm instance zones, hog all of the encounters in the zone and ruin gameplay for everyone.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small; font-family: andale mono,times">Besides, if you kick someone from an instance, can you just invite someone else to take his/her place? I'm sure someone will be interested in fighting an instance zone that's halfway completed.</span></p></blockquote><p> OMG MAYBE YOU CAN TYPE IT IN RED NEXT TIME AS WELL.  your message is pretty painful to read and I would be appricative if you wrote it in more pleasant methods. aka not 20 font bold and all caps.  thanks</p><p>Yes your gear and obvious AA choices would indicate that you may be a plat farmer, but it would just interest me to investigate further.  Odds are that the only way I would even inspect you is if you were acting like a plat farmer.  then I would do a /who all ( your name)  if anon I would /target ( your name) and inspect you.  Then I would have you as a potental farmer if you meet all of these criteria, but still not 100% I wouold have to see you doing farmerish stuff a few times and I would also ask other people in my guild if they thoght (your name) was a farmer.  This may not be the perfect method but it works 99% of the time. </p><p>Also you cant just petition some one because you think they are a farmer,  you need proof of zone disruption.  Now if you ran around for days at a time killing as many green solo mobs at a time as possible then I would consider you a farmer, I wouldnt be able to petition you as that is not against the EULA.</p><p>Gear is only one aspect play style is another, name and possibel guild are another.  It is not well player x mets critia A only so he must be a farmer,  no player A must meet many aspects to be considered a farmer.  I still can not just petition him with out a reason said farmer need to try something such as training me to try to kill me, or somethign else to disrupt game play.</p>

[Veng]

<p>I am a multi-boxer.  I use 3 accounts on 2 pcs.  I have 2 clients running on 1 pc and 1 on the other..  I control all 3 toons manually.  I pull with my tank, 2nd pc is my healer, and alt-tab between my wiz and tank.  The only thing that is auto on my toons is autofollow, otherwise totally contolled by me.  My purpose is to have multiple lvl 70 toons for raiding.  Although I do farm names for in game money to help with equipment costs and repairs.  </p><p>   I enjoy playing this way for many reasons, most of all its just fun for me.  I wil not disrupt anyone's game play.  If someone needs a mob for a quest...I will gladly back down.  Afterall its just a game.  </p><p>    I have been called a botter many times.  Even though I make sure I let them know I'm using no macros or any help what so ever.  I still get labled as a botter.  People have told me "no matter what your doing its still botting"  So yes, I think some people use the term "botting" as universial slang for multiboxers.  I do however take offense to the term.  I play totally withen the rules and yet people want to petition that i'm botting.  I just tell them to go ahead and petition then, I can prove I'm not doing anything to break the rules.  So most of the time I just ignore those people and play cause I have nothing to hide.</p><p>    So if you multibox and play within the rules your fine.  Its the people who don't, give us a bad name</p>

[Vatec]

<cite>simpwrx02 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>thebunny wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Amana wrote:</cite><blockquote>Have to say the best thing for the OP to do in that kind of situation is just be strict.  Warn him/her to stop what they are doing ninja looting and all on items they can't use.  After a 2nd warning just kick em out of the group, wonder off and die.  If they try to train you then ya can petition them for abusive behavior after you warned them to stop ninja looting items.  </blockquote>Actually this brings up a point I never really thought about until recently.  On the rare occassion that I run across someone in a PUG that rolls on everything without regard to NBG, I'll first warn them to follow the rules of the group, and if they continue I will kick them.  However, how would this work in an instance where you can only have 6 people in the zone?  Not that you can't complete any instance in the game with less than 6 people, but I wonder how people deal with this type of situation. </blockquote> Any instance can be easily completed with only 5 people, odds are this ninja looter was a dps class so basically it will take a little longer, but still with in the groups ability to complete.</blockquote>Right. Tanks never roll for mage gear and priests never roll for scout stuff. Never happens. Ever. Only DPS classes are botters, pharmers, plat farmers, ninja looters, etc. Here's a thought for you:  every group I've ever been in, everyone just clicks Loot All and, if someone then says, "Hey, I could use that breastplate" we give it to them.  Nice, simple, no drama.  No "group rules," no stuck up "my way or the highway" jerks, no long lectures about NBG being Good and "ninja looting" being bad. Some people take this game way too seriously....

[thebunny]

<cite>erin wrote:</cite><blockquote>I roll on everything that isn't no-trade, as do most of the people I've PUGd with.  The assumption, always, is that if you need the item, you'll ask for it.  I will always hand it over.  I hate wasting time checking every single item, I tend to assume that by the time you are high 60s and 70, you no longer need adept 1s or tradeskill books or what have you, but that if you do, you'll say so.  If you warned me about it, I'd be fairly ticked at your 'tude, because I don't consider myself greedy, just time efficient.  Otherwise you stand around after each drop saying "anyone need? anyone? "  How often does someone actually claim an item in a NBG that isn't no-trade in your average instance group?  Out of all the drops, maybe twice, and that's a big maybe. </blockquote><p> My apologies, I should have been more clear.  If an item isn't no trade I pretty much figure everyone will roll on it and anyone who needs it can speak up - absolutely nothing wrong with that.  I was referring to people who don't give up items that are tradeable to those who need them, or people who roll on every no trade item regardless of whether they need it or not.  While I have honestly run across very few of these types of people, the ones I have found themselves quickly out of my group.</p><p>Of course that's the great thing about sticking with guild groups primarily. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>