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Java
07-23-2007, 07:45 AM
<p>This is a repost from the thread about making Shadowknights and to a certain degree Crusaders in genreal more raid viable.  After posting it, I felt this could use its own topic because of its nature.  I think that Shadowknights are currently the Jack-of-all-trades in ralation to tanking, we are masters of none.  We are the middle ground.  Most of the focus on this thread I am hoping is aimed more towards Raiding and to a certain degree Grouping.  Soloing and PvP is its own beast and not the target for this post.</p><p>Mitigation ---------------- 1) Warriors 2) Crusaders 3) Brawlers</p><p>Avoidence ---------------- 1) Brawlers 2) Warriors 3) Crusaders</p><p>Hitpoints ---------------- 1) Brawlers 2) Warriors 3) Crusaders</p><p>DPS ---------------- This area can fluxuate so much that its hard to put people in specific places.  An SK that is geared for it can be #1, but that is #1 for Tanks, which still puts us behind any DPS class.</p><p>Cusaders need something to stand out from the other tanks.  We have, based on the above list, nothing to offer a raid or even a group over a Warrior or brawler.  Sure we can do the job if needed, but there are others that are better.  If we put our Avoidance above a Warriors but below a brawlers, then we would be an accepted tank.  I think the AA given to Paladins was a step in the right direction by making their shields 24% more effective.</p><p>1) Crusaders should be the masters of the shield.  I personally love the Bruisers defensive stance since it adds a flat chance to also deflect attacks.  Why not add a flat block chance to our defensive stance?  Maybe a Consentration buff that gives us protection or block effectiveness?</p><p>2) Second option would be to increase our ability to parry.  How about a parry buff?  One that increases our parry chance to somewhere close to 15% to 20%.  Brawlers have their deflect chance to over 30% and thats not counting their defensive stance which can be as high as a flat 16% chance to deflect attacks.  Oh, and the Bruiser defensive stance also gives +defense and +deflection</p><p>Opinions?</p><p>Edit: Changed fighters to warriors</p>

Norrsken
07-23-2007, 08:06 AM
Just a bit of nitpicking, but its warriors, not fighters. A fighter is any of the tanks. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Like the idea about adding a flat block to our defensive stance though.

Java
07-23-2007, 08:41 AM
haha ... thanks for that, I'll change it.

CHIMPNOODLE.
07-23-2007, 10:00 AM
<p>As it stands now, the same thing mentioned for gearing/specc'ing for DPS applies to the other categories as well....Crusaders can have more HP and Mitigation than the others, depending on how they are gearing/specc'ing as well. Avoidance is abit harder to top out though I find.</p><p>With the longer duration of our temp buff, and against multi-mob encounters, crusader Miti is often tops. Jack of all trades is a nice way to describe our versatility, but it doesn't really cover the fact that if we specialize, we do the jobs exceptionally well. </p><p>SKs can do some very nice dammage for a tank if specc'ed that way....and are solid as heck tanking. As MT, they are situationally the best...and as OT, they are unparalled imo.</p><p>That being said...if the Devs offer us a defensive bonus of any kind (particularly if it's Block hehe)....I'll take it! <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

joeygopher
07-23-2007, 11:09 AM
i'd still like us maybe to be the best at taking the big magic hits...

ailen
07-23-2007, 12:23 PM
<p>Our Avoidance buff, Devious Evasion M1 adds 14ish parry... so .. in a sense we already have part of what you're asking for.</p><p>cast it on someone and get the benefits.</p>

Controlor
07-23-2007, 02:01 PM
<cite>Java wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>This is a repost from the thread about making Shadowknights and to a certain degree Crusaders in genreal more raid viable.  After posting it, I felt this could use its own topic because of its nature.  I think that Shadowknights are currently the Jack-of-all-trades in ralation to tanking, we are masters of none.  We are the middle ground.  Most of the focus on this thread I am hoping is aimed more towards Raiding and to a certain degree Grouping.  Soloing and PvP is its own beast and not the target for this post.</p> <p>Mitigation --------------- 1) Shadowkniht (Because of siphon mit and despoil SPECIALLY with multi mobs, Otherwise its guardians at top) 2) Guardian 3) Berzerker 4) Paladin 5) Brwalers </p><p>*Avoidence (Uncontested...) ---------------- 1) Guardian 2) Paladin 3) Berzerker 4) Shadowknight 5) Brawlers</p><p>Avoidence (Contested...) ---------------- 1) Brawlers 2) Guardian 3) Paladin 4) Berzerker 5) Shadowknight </p> <p>**Hitpoints ---------------- 1) Guardian 2) Paladin 3) Shadowknight 4) Berzerker 5) Bruisers </p><p> Agro ---------------- 1) Paladin 2) Guardian 3) Shadowknight 4) Berzerker 5) Bruiser 6) Monk </p><p>DPS ---------------- This area can fluxuate so much that its hard to put people in specific places.  An SK that is geared for it can be #1, but that is #1 for Tanks, which still puts us behind any DPS class.</p><p>*Avoidance: I broke up avoidance into uncontested and contested. Yes brawlers have highest contested avoidance. To a raid however this contested avoidance hurts them big time. Guardians have highest uncontested avoid and paladins a close 2nd (with the paladin aa line that boosts shield effectiveness). For tanking purposes and avoidance VS epics uncontested > contested. VS heroics cotested > uncontested really. </p><p>**Hitpoints: This one actually can vary as well. If your looking at pure stat to stat comparison than Brawler Warrior Crusader. However if you consider Gear / Buffs / AA than the list is more like how i have it. However if you want to factor in Pool of Blood for SK's than their HP would be at the very top (SPECIALLY after the GU 37 when they increase the amount of your pool of blood). Both paladins and Guardians have +hp buffs which put them a bit higher above the other plate wearers. </p></blockquote>Since it was so general i broke it apart to be a bit more specific on classes (Except brawlers i dont know brawlers)

Vone
07-25-2007, 10:04 PM
  I can't help but wonder what would happen to our aggro control if the MoBs hit us Less...  since one of our aggro gainers is our Caress line with the Damage Sheild and Added aggro. I don't hink avoiding hits would be in our best interest. Perhaps a few more triggers on Blessing, or more lifetap procs on other skills would be the way to go.

Controlor
07-25-2007, 10:57 PM
<cite>Voness wrote:</cite><blockquote>  I can't help but wonder what would happen to our aggro control if the MoBs hit us Less...  since one of our aggro gainers is our Caress line with the Damage Sheild and Added aggro. I don't hink avoiding hits would be in our best interest. Perhaps a few more triggers on Blessing, or more lifetap procs on other skills would be the way to go.</blockquote> Taking hits and avoiding hits dont effect your agro. So much as casting buffs, having added effects, or doing dmg. Casting buffs like DM = agro. Having added effects (non dmging) like stun = agro. Doing dmg = agro 1 dmg = 1 hate. A dmg shild would act like a ward heals and wards generate agro. If you just stand there tho and dodge/parry or take a hit neither one will effect your agro..... However if a parry turns into a reposite it will do dmg to a mob and thus increase your agro.

Wildmage
07-25-2007, 11:12 PM
<cite>Controlor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Voness wrote:</cite><blockquote>  I can't help but wonder what would happen to our aggro control if the MoBs hit us Less...  since one of our aggro gainers is our Caress line with the Damage Sheild and Added aggro. I don't hink avoiding hits would be in our best interest. Perhaps a few more triggers on Blessing, or more lifetap procs on other skills would be the way to go.</blockquote> Taking hits and avoiding hits dont effect your agro. So much as casting buffs, having added effects, or doing dmg. Casting buffs like DM = agro. Having added effects (non dmging) like stun = agro. Doing dmg = agro 1 dmg = 1 hate. A dmg shild would act like a ward heals and wards generate agro. If you just stand there tho and dodge/parry or take a hit neither one will effect your agro..... However if a parry turns into a reposite it will do dmg to a mob and thus increase your agro.</blockquote>read his post again, he's talking about the Dark caress line that we have that when we do get hit does damage to the hitter and taunts them, with something like that I want my Mititgation to be high more than my avoidance if im tanking.

Controlor
07-25-2007, 11:20 PM
<cite>Wildmage wrote:</cite><blockquote>read his post again, he's talking about the Dark caress line that we have that when we do get hit does damage to the hitter and taunts them, with something like that I want my Mititgation to be high more than my avoidance if im tanking. </blockquote> Aah yes. Well here is how you judge how it will effect your agro. If it wears off BEFOR your able to cast it again than you need slightly more avoid. If it wears off AFTER your able to cast again you prob want slightly less.But if it wears off pretty much when your able to recast or close proximity than it is maxing the spell. Yes i know its trigger based. But seriously if you get all the triggers off befor the recast is up than your avoid is fine and has room to imrpove. Avoiding hits wont start lowering THAT portion of agro until you evoid enough hits that it doesnt wear off till after the recast is up. Once that is the case then your lowering the hate that that spell can give you.

Couching
07-25-2007, 11:20 PM
<cite>Controlor wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Mitigation --------------- 1) Shadowkniht (Because of siphon mit and despoil SPECIALLY with multi mobs, Otherwise its guardians at top) 2) Guardian 3) Berzerker 4) Paladin 5) Brwalers </p><p>*Avoidence (Uncontested...) ---------------- 1) Guardian 2) Paladin 3) Berzerker 4) Shadowknight 5) Brawlers</p><p>Avoidence (Contested...) ---------------- 1) Brawlers 2) Guardian 3) Paladin 4) Berzerker 5) Shadowknight </p> <p>**Hitpoints ---------------- 1) Guardian 2) Paladin 3) Shadowknight 4) Berzerker 5) Bruisers </p><p> Agro ---------------- 1) Paladin 2) Guardian 3) Shadowknight 4) Berzerker 5) Bruiser 6) Monk</p></blockquote> Just as you mentioned that brawler has less uncontested avoidance than plate tank. In other word, avoidance tank avoids hit less than mitigation tank in raids. It's really ridiculous. Not to say, brawler has <i>ZERO</i> uncontested in offensive stance. We have to be in defensive stance to get 16% avoidance comparing to plate tank, they have same uncontested avoidance any time no matter what stance they are. For plate tank, you can get 19% from shield, 5% from SoD 1h, 4% from wrist adornments, 5% from hate bp and 1% from shield adornment. That's total 34% uncontested avoidance any time! Basically, crusader is fine. The problem is guardian/zerker are overpowered. I don't even want to mention brawler since brawler has less mitigation, less uncontested avodidance, even less dps (if we are in defensive to get uncontested avoidance and u guys can tank in offensive stance with no lose on uncontested avoidance) and less aggro control comparing to all plate tanks.

Beldin_
07-26-2007, 06:25 AM
<cite>Controlor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wildmage wrote:</cite><blockquote>read his post again, he's talking about the Dark caress line that we have that when we do get hit does damage to the hitter and taunts them, with something like that I want my Mititgation to be high more than my avoidance if im tanking. </blockquote> Aah yes. Well here is how you judge how it will effect your agro. If it wears off BEFOR your able to cast it again than you need slightly more avoid. If it wears off AFTER your able to cast again you prob want slightly less.But if it wears off pretty much when your able to recast or close proximity than it is maxing the spell. Yes i know its trigger based. But seriously if you get all the triggers off befor the recast is up than your avoid is fine and has room to imrpove. Avoiding hits wont start lowering THAT portion of agro until you evoid enough hits that it doesnt wear off till after the recast is up. Once that is the case then your lowering the hate that that spell can give you.</blockquote> Please exemine your spells and look what they do .. Dark Caress is a concentration buff .. and it does not wear off <img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Java
07-26-2007, 07:03 AM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>Just as you mentioned that brawler has less uncontested avoidance than plate tank. In other word, avoidance tank avoids hit less than mitigation tank in raids. It's really ridiculous. Not to say, brawler has <i>ZERO</i> uncontested in offensive stance. We have to be in defensive stance to get 16% avoidance comparing to plate tank, they have same uncontested avoidance any time no matter what stance they are. For plate tank, you can get 19% from shield, 5% from SoD 1h, 4% from wrist adornments, 5% from hate bp and 1% from shield adornment. That's total 34% uncontested avoidance any time! Basically, crusader is fine. The problem is guardian/zerker are overpowered. I don't even want to mention brawler since brawler has less mitigation, less uncontested avodidance, even less dps (if we are in defensive to get uncontested avoidance and u guys can tank in offensive stance with no lose on uncontested avoidance) and less aggro control comparing to all plate tanks. </blockquote><p>I have to nit pick here .. :) ..  the 4% on wrist is parry, not block.  But yes, you could get a +5 from SoD weapon and +1 from shield Adornment.  The Cuirass of Hatred drops off the Avatar of Hate and not many people are going to see that item.  That all being said, in most situations you'll find most plate tanks with 19%+5%+1% = 25% Block with an extra 4% Parry does not equal 29% uncontested ... its more like ~27.5% uncontested.</p><p>Now Brawlers: Defensive Stance: 16% Deflect Gloves of Fright: +2% Dodge  -  Lyceum of Abhorrence is much easier then Avatar of Hate Same 2 Parry Adornments: +4% Parry</p><p>Altogether: 16% + ~1.75% + ~3.25% = ~21%.  Yes, its still less but its not bad.  And thats mostly because of the release of the SoD quest line.  If you take the Sword of Desteny out of the picture its a little closer and NO AA's.</p><p> I hope I don't have my math off to badly, but these should be the closer values:</p><p>Plate: (19% + 1% adornment) = 20% Block + 3.2% Parry = ~23.2% Uncontested Avoidance Brawler: 16% Deflect + ~1.75% Dodge + ~3.25% Parry = ~21% Uncontested Avoidance</p><p> If you want to include AA's now:</p><p>Paladin: (19% + 24% effectiveness + 1% adornment) = 24.5% Block + 3% Parry = ~27.5% Uncontested Avoidance Brawler: 16% Deflect + ~1.75% Dodge + 9.9% Riposte(Str 4(8)) + ~2.9% Parry = ~30.5% Uncontested Avoidance</p><p> I completely forgot about the Bruiser Conditioning Tree Final Ability Retribution of Stone which makes 20% of all ripostes cause a stone skin trigger. So...</p><p>Bruiser: 16% Deflect + ~1.75% Dodge + 9.9% Riposte(Str 4(8)) + ~2.9% Parry + 2.1% RoS = ~32.6% Uncontested Avoidance</p>

verydanger
07-26-2007, 07:04 AM
<cite>joeygopher wrote:</cite><blockquote>i'd still like us maybe to be the best at taking the big magic hits...</blockquote>I like this idea a lot. You could give us more avoidance (through shield), but I kinda feel that would sadly be subtracting something that separates the 3 classes. Instead, something like extra protection vs spell damage would make us more unique instead. Currently we already have some WIS on our def stance, so I guess something like this was already intended for crusaders. With the current game mechanics though, I have a hard time seeing our 150 something WIS making any difference at all. Instead, how about giving our def stance a replenishing ward against spell damage? Or even a percentage-based chance to outright resist any incoming spell? Over time, this could allow SoE to start designing a few epic encounters where crusaders with this extra spell protection could be a ideal choice even.

Java
07-26-2007, 07:13 AM
<cite>verydanger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>joeygopher wrote:</cite><blockquote>i'd still like us maybe to be the best at taking the big magic hits...</blockquote>I like this idea a lot. You could give us more avoidance (through shield), but I kinda feel that would sadly be subtracting something that separates the 3 classes. Instead, something like extra protection vs spell damage would make us more unique instead. Currently we already have some WIS on our def stance, so I guess something like this was already intended for crusaders. With the current game mechanics though, I have a hard time seeing our 150 something WIS making any difference at all. Instead, how about giving our def stance a replenishing ward against spell damage? Or even a percentage-based chance to outright resist any incoming spell? Over time, this could allow SoE to start designing a few epic encounters where crusaders with this extra spell protection could be a ideal choice even. </blockquote>With this in mind, the Conjuror pet defensive stance has a regenerating ward on it, what about adding a regenerating ward that only absords magic damage?

AziBam
07-26-2007, 09:32 AM
Just wanted to point out that the vast VAST majority of damage from mobs is not magical.  Take a look at parses sometime and most mobs don't do anything other than physical of one type or another.  Even "caster" type mobs often do more physical damage than magic.  In other words, it would be of very little help to us to have something just to protect against magical damage.   I like the shield idea.  I've felt for some time that avoidance is an area that we are lacking in. 

Couching
07-26-2007, 12:17 PM
<cite>Java wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>Just as you mentioned that brawler has less uncontested avoidance than plate tank. In other word, avoidance tank avoids hit less than mitigation tank in raids. It's really ridiculous. Not to say, brawler has <i>ZERO</i> uncontested in offensive stance. We have to be in defensive stance to get 16% avoidance comparing to plate tank, they have same uncontested avoidance any time no matter what stance they are. For plate tank, you can get 19% from shield, 5% from SoD 1h, 4% from wrist adornments, 5% from hate bp and 1% from shield adornment. That's total 34% uncontested avoidance any time! Basically, crusader is fine. The problem is guardian/zerker are overpowered. I don't even want to mention brawler since brawler has less mitigation, less uncontested avodidance, even less dps (if we are in defensive to get uncontested avoidance and u guys can tank in offensive stance with no lose on uncontested avoidance) and less aggro control comparing to all plate tanks. </blockquote><p>I have to nit pick here .. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ..  the 4% on wrist is parry, not block.  But yes, you could get a +5 from SoD weapon and +1 from shield Adornment.  The Cuirass of Hatred drops off the Avatar of Hate and not many people are going to see that item.  That all being said, in most situations you'll find most plate tanks with 19%+5%+1% = 25% Block with an extra 4% Parry does not equal 29% uncontested ... its more like ~27.5% uncontested.</p><p>Now Brawlers: Defensive Stance: 16% Deflect Gloves of Fright: +2% Dodge  -  Lyceum of Abhorrence is much easier then Avatar of Hate Same 2 Parry Adornments: +4% Parry</p><p>Altogether: 16% + ~1.75% + ~3.25% = ~21%.  Yes, its still less but its not bad.  And thats mostly because of the release of the SoD quest line.  If you take the Sword of Desteny out of the picture its a little closer and NO AA's.</p><p> I hope I don't have my math off to badly, but these should be the closer values:</p><p>Plate: (19% + 1% adornment) = 20% Block + 3.2% Parry = ~23.2% Uncontested Avoidance Brawler: 16% Deflect + ~1.75% Dodge + ~3.25% Parry = ~21% Uncontested Avoidance</p><p> If you want to include AA's now:</p><p>Paladin: (19% + 24% effectiveness + 1% adornment) = 24.5% Block + 3% Parry = ~27.5% Uncontested Avoidance Brawler: 16% Deflect + ~1.75% Dodge + 9.9% Riposte(Str 4(<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />) + ~2.9% Parry = ~30.5% Uncontested Avoidance</p><p> I completely forgot about the Bruiser Conditioning Tree Final Ability Retribution of Stone which makes 20% of all ripostes cause a stone skin trigger. So...</p><p>Bruiser: 16% Deflect + ~1.75% Dodge + 9.9% Riposte(Str 4(<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />) + ~2.9% Parry + 2.1% RoS = ~32.6% Uncontested Avoidance</p></blockquote>You can't just calculate Gloves of fright for brawler since it's clickable for everyone. Especially, it's not a constant effect. Besides, any brawler in  raid guild isn't going to get 9.9 riposte from str line since it is barehand only. I bet you don't know that. moreover, I don't know why you missed the 5% block from SoD reward. It's very easy to get since it's legendary weapon. It's even easier to get than glove of fright. For plate tank, the only hard part to get is hate bp. You can still get 25% block + 4% parry with glove of fright effect (1.75%), it's 30% uncontested avoidance. See, you guys have almost 50% more than brawler. It's really too ridiculous. Not to say if you count on AA, any raid brawler won't get str line since it's bare handed only. It's really pointless for any brawler who can get fabled weapons. So pally total uncontested block is 19% + 24% effectiveness + 1% adornment + 5% SoD 1h) = 29.5% Block + 3.25% Parry +1.75 dodge= ~34.5% Not to say high end pal can get hate bp, you will have 39.5% uncontested avoidance in <i>any stance</i>! For monk, all we have is max 21% uncontested avoidance. Though, usually we have to be in offensive to be able to get mobs on us, In other word, we have only 5% uncontested avoidance in the best! That's why brawler is totally screwed by SoE. We have less mitigation since we are avoidance tank, ok fine, Then why do we have less uncontested avoidance than plate tank? That's totally unreasonable.

verydanger
07-26-2007, 08:50 PM
<cite>AziBam wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just wanted to point out that the vast VAST majority of damage from mobs is not magical.  Take a look at parses sometime and most mobs don't do anything other than physical of one type or another.  Even "caster" type mobs often do more physical damage than magic.  In other words, it would be of very little help to us to have something just to protect against magical damage.   I like the shield idea.  I've felt for some time that avoidance is an area that we are lacking in.  </blockquote> Yes, I am aware of this. Thats why a form of "spell protection" would have to be pretty substantial to make a difference. Something like 33% chance to resist spells (including debuffs), or a 2-3k ward (after mitigation) that replenishes every 30 seconds or similar. Wouldnt do much to lessen the  incoming damage overall, but could smooth out the spikes in some situations where a big AE is involved in addition to the melee hits. OR, in a bit longer perspective, future encounters could be made to have more elements of spell damage. Why should raiding only be about melee damage anyways? I think the game could be made more intresting by introducing "caster" mobs, as well as player abilities to counter them.

Java
07-26-2007, 08:53 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>You can't just calculate Gloves of fright for brawler since it's clickable for everyone. Especially, it's not a constant effect. Besides, any brawler in  raid guild isn't going to get 9.9 riposte from str line since it is barehand only. I bet you don't know that. moreover, I don't know why you missed the 5% block from SoD reward. It's very easy to get since it's legendary weapon. It's even easier to get than glove of fright. For plate tank, the only hard part to get is hate bp. You can still get 25% block + 4% parry with glove of fright effect (1.75%), it's 30% uncontested avoidance. See, you guys have almost 50% more than brawler. It's really too ridiculous. Not to say if you count on AA, any raid brawler won't get str line since it's bare handed only. It's really pointless for any brawler who can get fabled weapons. So pally total uncontested block is 19% + 24% effectiveness + 1% adornment + 5% SoD 1h) = 29.5% Block + 3.25% Parry +1.75 dodge= ~34.5% Not to say high end pal can get hate bp, you will have 39.5% uncontested avoidance in <i>any stance</i>! For monk, all we have is max 21% uncontested avoidance. Though, usually we have to be in offensive to be able to get mobs on us, In other word, we have only 5% uncontested avoidance in the best! That's why brawler is totally screwed by SoE. We have less mitigation since we are avoidance tank, ok fine, Then why do we have less uncontested avoidance than plate tank? That's totally unreasonable. </blockquote><p> True, but the gloves are in effect less then 2% and closer to 1.7 after all the other avoidance checks.  Yes, I did know about the Claw Reversal (STR 4 Ability) was with both weapon slots empty, but then again a Plate tank can't dual wield or use a 2hander to get that kind of uncontested avoidance.</p><p>I do agree that Pallies have the best, but your unwilling to say that if your willing to spec AA wise for +shield block your not willing to spec for the riposte chance?  yes, its not common, but this is not about whats coomon, its about what people say that they can't do.  I am simply saying that its possible.</p><p>A Bruiser could, in theory, if the riposte from Str 4 AA is considered Uncontested, get Defensive Stance + Claw Reversal + RoS for aproximately 28% uncontested.</p><p>I have had some people tell me that the parry adornments are not considered Uncontested, so I will not count those here, and no "other" gear save your precious SoD, just AA's.</p><p>A Paladin can get 19% +24% Effectiveness +5 SoD +1% Adornment for ~29.5% where as other plate tanks usally will get all but the Pally effectiveness AA which would take it to 25% for everyone else.  If it does come to be that the Parry adornment is considered Uncontested, then everyone can get those anyways.  Monks I think are the only truely worst off without RoS taking them to only 26%.</p><p>In total it looks like this based on these rough calculations:</p><p>Pally(29.5) -> Bruiser(28%) -> Monk(26%) -> Plate(25%)</p><p>NOTE: That these are based on the fact that the Brawler Claw Reversal is considered Uncontested.  If it is not, then yes, I do agre that Brawlers would be at the bottom with:</p><p>Pally(29.5) -> Plate(25%)-> Brawlers(16%)</p>

Java
07-27-2007, 09:33 AM
I am a person who will admit to being ignorent when I do realize my mistake.  I went and respeced my Bruiser and realize that Claw Reversal only goes up to 5%.  It appears to be 12% because it started at 1.5% and ended up only going up in .5% incements.