Aggro tool before/after comparison (all listed classes) the SEQUEL!

[tracheaspider]

<p>Consolidated side-by-side comparisons.  Old ones on the left, new on the right.</p><p><img src="http://home.comcast.net/~madiarin/aggroalinscurrent.jpg" border="0"><img src="http://home.comcast.net/~madiarin/aggroalinsnew2.jpg" border="0"></p><p><img src="http://home.comcast.net/~madiarin/aggrobefuddlecurrent.jpg" border="0"><img src="http://home.comcast.net/~madiarin/aggrobefuddlenew2.jpg" border="0"></p><p><img src="http://home.comcast.net/~madiarin/aggroenragingcurrent.jpg" border="0"><img src="http://home.comcast.net/~madiarin/aggroenragingnew2.jpg" border="0"></p><p><img src="http://home.comcast.net/~madiarin/aggrohyranscurrent.jpg" border="0"><img src="http://home.comcast.net/~madiarin/aggrohyransnew2.jpg" border="0"></p><p><img src="http://home.comcast.net/~madiarin/aggromurderouscurrent.jpg" border="0"><img src="http://home.comcast.net/~madiarin/aggromurderousnew2.jpg" border="0"></p><p><img src="http://home.comcast.net/~madiarin/aggroprimalcurrent.jpg" border="0"><img src="http://home.comcast.net/~madiarin/aggroprimalnew2.jpg" border="0"></p><p><img src="http://home.comcast.net/~madiarin/aggroswarthycurrent.jpg" border="0"><img src="http://home.comcast.net/~madiarin/aggroswarthynew2.jpg" border="0"></p>

[Vorlak]

well... maybe they dont want guardians hold agro better then paladins, or monks...

[Kaleyen]

<img src="http://home.comcast.net/~madiarin/aggroenragingnew2.jpg" border="0"> So in Coercers to now be effective in theMT group have to put up Assassin/Swashy numbers to make their hate transfer even worth while? And 29% down to 18%..?

[Addex]

All I see is tons of dead scouts in raids.....

[Geothe]

so Once again Brigands are really screwed. They are the only DPSing scout class without a percentage based deagro ability. Just a really weak [Removed for Content] proc that lost is agro position drop component. Moronic Devs

[Mr. Dawki]

<cite>Addex wrote:</cite><blockquote>All I see is tons of dead scouts in raids.....</blockquote> I see tons of dead everyone, well except tanks because they will be the last ones on the hate list

[Kaleyen]

Mr. Dawkins wrote: <blockquote><cite>Addex wrote:</cite><blockquote>All I see is tons of dead scouts in raids.....</blockquote> I see tons of dead everyone, well except tanks because they will be the last ones on the hate list</blockquote>LOL

[NosajMa]

Mr. Dawkins wrote: <blockquote><cite>Addex wrote:</cite><blockquote>All I see is tons of dead scouts in raids.....</blockquote> I see tons of dead everyone, well except tanks because they will be the last ones on the hate list</blockquote> Roflmao.  I get this image in my head of a guardian standing in the middle of a battlefield littered with the bodies of his guildies, scratching his head and going "Guys?...." right as the shadow of Wuoshi falls over him.

[Anellusion]

My bet is they're nerfing our spells and abilities so they can give us 'upgrades' in RoK.

[Gasheron]

<p>Bah, all this complaining about losing hate reduction... Didn't ya see? Once the update comes out, that's what us Monks are gonna be for!</p><p>Monk AA Update</p><p>"Evade - Renamed Evade Check: Non-fighters in your group have their hate reduced with the encounter. If Dragon Stance is not active, your hate is also reduced with your encounter."</p>

[tracheaspider]

Kuian@Butcherblock wrote: <blockquote> So in Coercers to now be effective in theMT group have to put up Assassin/Swashy numbers to make their hate transfer even worth while? And 29% down to 18%..? </blockquote><p> Mmm, not quite.  Since almost all coercer spells have a control effect or power drain associated with them, they generate more aggro per point of damage.  In fact, I'd put it up somewhere around 1.5 to 2x the aggro other classes get from relative DPS overall.  (That is, a wizzie might peel a mob at 2k DPS and a coercer, in the same situation, peel it at 1k.)  So, a coercer doesn't need to do loads of DPS to generate loads of hate.  If it weren't for the stupidly low values on the transfers, I'd be very happy about this change.  Buffbot type coercers will be in trouble, but those who put in the effort will possibly be an asset, especially on encounters where an assassin or swashie has to joust a ton or can't get back attacks.</p><p>My worry is, since 17% (not even that since I don't have M1) isn't a whole lot, how will aggro decreasers work with the transfer?  I currently get Moderated and/or put Harm Link on myself in MT.  Will that screw up how much of my hate the MT would get from me?  If so, it's going to truly suck trying to feed hate without getting splatted.  (Keep in mind, scouts get several quick-recast, personal detaunts whereas coercers get two on long timers.  Both are PBAE and one teleports the coercer to a random location and the other fears the mobs, even if they're epic.  Even being careful on raids, I've sometimes teleported myself into areas of geometry that I couldn't get out of without being CoHed.)</p>

[Darlina]

<p>What kind of C*ap is this? <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I have already Aggro Problems with my Assassin through the EoF/KoS Achievements and now they kill my last Hope of escape? I don't understand this... how are we supposed to keep up the DPS in Raid Fights if we get screwed like this....  This is going to be pure Aggro-Ping-Pong, that's for sure... and a lot mor Deaths... really encouraging to play Scouts....</p><p>Raid Encounters will die by Exhaustion 'cause they will be running through the Raid like crazy... *roll eyes*</p>

[Zabjade]

<p><span style="color: #00cc00">Gasp! Just means you will have to put Brawlers in Raid groups! <i>(The Howwor lol)  </i><img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <b>About time</b> we had utility besides playing minesweeper when there was no New-Guildy to Haze.  </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">I wonder if the Monk Hate Venting is just group or raid wide?  Now if they will just fix our strength line and uncontested Avoidance problems <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Hmm will have to practice these abilities maybe even respec....Busy busy busy.</span></p>

[Ghalslayt]

Any idea what the percentages are for adept III?

[Risingmyst]

<p>Okay I can totaly understand why this nerf sucks real bad but come on... You all have to see that for the longest time Paladins have been getting screwed in raids.... I see more SK's in raids then Paladins. Heck I cant get my 70 Paladin in a Raid guild cause that is the one class they dont want! They will take Sk's though cause they have better DPS or hate or something better then my Paladin..... sniff...... I wanna RAIIIIIDDDD!!!!!! WHAAAAAAAAA ...................... Okay enough of that. Well point being I really think that it is jacked that aggro is getting nerfed but just maybe some one will want me to Raid for once. </p><p>Oh and just so you smart aleks dont say it... I know how to play my Paladin. I dont get to raid cause I suck... just no one wants a Pali</p>

[Zabjade]

<span style="color: #00cc00">Ha! Monks were wanted even less then Pallies Now Both classes are looking to become useful in raids.</span>

[EvilIguana9]

Changes all look eminently reasonable.  Gratz scouts, easy mode is off.  Welcome to our game. 

[Mr. Dawki]

<cite>EvilIguana966 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Changes all look eminently reasonable.  Gratz scouts, easy mode is off.  Welcome to our game.  </blockquote><p> Noooooooo! scouts will be just dandy, we still have the unused elude and grandmaster deagro poisons. Scouts will breeze through this GU with no problems, the rest of you squishy casters that have had agro problems from the start, start digging your graves now because your gona be dead the second you cast a spell</p><p>no more blaming the scout who is being lazy, because now the agro transfer is just big enough to help the scout but not big enough to help anyone else</p><p>SOE hits Hate Transfers with Nerf Bat</p><p>Allas Hate Transfers has died from pain and suffereing</p><p>/lowers head and mourns the loss of caster dps</p>

[miliskel]

Darlina@Innovation wrote: <blockquote><p>What kind of C*ap is this? <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I have already Aggro Problems with my Assassin through the EoF/KoS Achievements and now they kill my last Hope of escape? I don't understand this... how are we supposed to keep up the DPS in Raid Fights if we get screwed like this....  This is going to be pure Aggro-Ping-Pong, that's for sure... and a lot mor Deaths... really encouraging to play Scouts....</p><p>Raid Encounters will die by Exhaustion 'cause they will be running through the Raid like crazy... *roll eyes*</p></blockquote>errmmm...scouts get nerfed and give less hate to mt = more problems for sorcerors..we are the owrst of after any aggro change.

[lonedrow05]

This changes ruins the raiding mechanic that has been in the game since launch and all raiders have gotten used to and have worked with for years. Changing the mechanic after this long does nothing but make players want to quit...or praise the fact that we will all have set gear soon which will triple all of our repair bill costs due to being more expensive to repair and having to repair all the time because aggro control is horrible... Thanks devs for listening to some of the community and adding another money sink it to the game i.e. REPAIR BILLS...

[ShadowMunkie]

Some of these changes irritate me, like why are dirges the ones to get the most out of Hate Increasing??? Aren't bards supposed to be Jack of All Trades, Not being great at one thing, yet being good at all things? I as a Coercer actually think its nice for people to work for aggro, I welcome the changes, it will be nice for people to work together. These changes will put the strong in an entirely different realm than weak. Working together is what raids are about, no? This just means that in order for your wizard/warlock/priest not to die, the other classes are gonna have to work there rears off. GU 36 gave some great changes to the KoS lines. This update is giving great changes to aggro, to better benefit the changes in the previous update. If your wanting everything easy, then I got news for you...Life ain't easy, you gotta work at it to succeed and I think all MMO's should at least take that from life. 17% increase with 17.1% transfer for a <b>Master I</b> spell seems a little low, even for <i><u><b>Sony</b></u></i>. When are you ever going to Cap both hate transfer and hate increase, thats like saying your wanting Paladins to tank in raids........ ...Yep....Yep...Yep...Yep... I'll leave it at that.

[Vydian]

Any raiding coercer who is complaining about this change doesn't understand hate. It has already been said that for quite some time, hate increase was capped at 50%. This was suspected (some cap anyway with an unknown amount) for awhile. Now, it just so happens that dirge+coercer hate increase numbers add up to about 50%. So before, all we did was add a small amount, hit the cap, and the rest was wasted. Now, we hit the cap, and any aggro generation we do further helps hate with the new transfer. This is a BUFF to coercers, so long as you don't just stand in the MT group and play buff bot. I am frequently near the top of the hate list in the MT group and I am specced for utility support (STA/WIS/AGI to 1 chronosiphoning, Tash, Coercive Healing) and my DPS hovers around 600-800 on average. So you don't have to have stellar DPS to be hated by the mob. I also don't think it's an accident that the Ad3 version of ED is 14%/14% (at least that's what the numbers were the first time around). This adds up to exactly 50% with the dirge, so none of the increase is wasted, but the master will increase the transfer amount by a little.

[vyxar]

<cite>Zabjade wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Gasp! Just means you will have to put Brawlers in Raid groups! <i>(The Howwor lol)  </i><img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <b>About time</b> we had utility besides playing minesweeper when there was no New-Guildy to Haze.  </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">I wonder if the Monk Hate Venting is just group or raid wide?  Now if they will just fix our strength line and uncontested Avoidance problems <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Hmm will have to practice these abilities maybe even respec....Busy busy busy.</span></p></blockquote> Yup I'm glad to see brawlers have gotten a small boost in utility.  And as for you aggro whiners: If you are basing your entire survivability on a ~20% percentage loss on MT you suck at playing. God forbid scouts have to use deaggro abilities now.

[tracheaspider]

<cite>Vydian wrote:</cite><blockquote>Any raiding coercer who is complaining about this change doesn't understand hate. It has already been said that for quite some time, hate increase was capped at 50%. This was suspected (some cap anyway with an unknown amount) for awhile. Now, it just so happens that dirge+coercer hate increase numbers add up to about 50%. So before, all we did was add a small amount, hit the cap, and the rest was wasted. Now, we hit the cap, and any aggro generation we do further helps hate with the new transfer. This is a BUFF to coercers, so long as you don't just stand in the MT group and play buff bot. I am frequently near the top of the hate list in the MT group and I am specced for utility support (STA/WIS/AGI to 1 chronosiphoning, Tash, Coercive Healing) and my DPS hovers around 600-800 on average. So you don't have to have stellar DPS to be hated by the mob. I also don't think it's an accident that the Ad3 version of ED is 14%/14% (at least that's what the numbers were the first time around). This adds up to exactly 50% with the dirge, so none of the increase is wasted, but the master will increase the transfer amount by a little. </blockquote><p> Silence, infidel! DPS is the measure of <i>everything</i>!  It is <i>GOD</i>!  It's... uh.... no, wait... scratch that... this is pretty accurate.  All of you should take heed of us <i>non-DPS-specced</i> MT coercers who can pull aggro doing our jobs.  Coercer hate is stupidly high compared to our DPS.</p><p>Like I said before, though, I'm worried that 14% transfer isn't enough to keep me alive when I run with lots more hate reduction than that and still peel aggro going full out.  With such fantasic aggro, wearing the remaining 86% wide out in the open is potentially going to be lots fatal.  More so with the nerf to the swashie transfer.  And dead coercers don't transfer a whole heck of a lot.</p>

[Vydian]

<cite>tracheaspider wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vydian wrote:</cite><blockquote>Any raiding coercer who is complaining about this change doesn't understand hate. It has already been said that for quite some time, hate increase was capped at 50%. This was suspected (some cap anyway with an unknown amount) for awhile. Now, it just so happens that dirge+coercer hate increase numbers add up to about 50%. So before, all we did was add a small amount, hit the cap, and the rest was wasted. Now, we hit the cap, and any aggro generation we do further helps hate with the new transfer. This is a BUFF to coercers, so long as you don't just stand in the MT group and play buff bot. I am frequently near the top of the hate list in the MT group and I am specced for utility support (STA/WIS/AGI to 1 chronosiphoning, Tash, Coercive Healing) and my DPS hovers around 600-800 on average. So you don't have to have stellar DPS to be hated by the mob. I also don't think it's an accident that the Ad3 version of ED is 14%/14% (at least that's what the numbers were the first time around). This adds up to exactly 50% with the dirge, so none of the increase is wasted, but the master will increase the transfer amount by a little. </blockquote><p> Silence, infidel! DPS is the measure of <i>everything</i>!  It is <i>GOD</i>!  It's... uh.... no, wait... scratch that... this is pretty accurate.  All of you should take heed of us <i>non-DPS-specced</i> MT coercers who can pull aggro doing our jobs.  Coercer hate is stupidly high compared to our DPS.</p><p>Like I said before, though, I'm worried that 14% transfer isn't enough to keep me alive when I run with lots more hate reduction than that and still peel aggro going full out.  With such fantasic aggro, wearing the remaining 86% wide out in the open is potentially going to be lots fatal.  More so with the nerf to the swashie transfer.  And dead coercers don't transfer a whole heck of a lot.</p></blockquote> Yeah, it is a buff to the MT hate for the dirge+coercer combo, though it may not be enough of one. Just have to wait and see at this point <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Here's to hoping the falling sky doesn't hit us in the head too hard.

[Dragonlancer]

Well while SOE is in the Aggro nerfing mood, they should get Amends too. If you reduce all these down, they should take Amends down to 10% to put it also inline with all the rest.

[Controlor]

<cite>Dragonlancer99 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well while SOE is in the Aggro nerfing mood, they should get Amends too. If you reduce all these down, they should take Amends down to 10% to put it also inline with all the rest. </blockquote>They actually have nerfed amends a couple times in the past thank you very much.

[Oakum]

<p>Okay, enough of the details, I want the big picture. </p><p>MT group Nr 1 = MT, Templer, Defiler, warden,dirge, coercer = 50% (cap) hate gain plus coercer hate transfer. </p><p>MT group Nr 2 = MT, temp, defiler, coercer, dirge, hate transfer class ([Removed for Content] or swash)</p><p>MT group Nr 3 = Mt, temp, defiler, warden, dirge, hate transfer. </p><p>So what is the before and after effects of aggro of the MT?</p><p>Now add in new brawlers and other AA reductions and what is the overall effect of the changes on the  raid tanking requirements, raid utility requirements, raid healing requirements and raid DPS requirements?</p>

[Dragonlancer]

<cite>Controlor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dragonlancer99 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well while SOE is in the Aggro nerfing mood, they should get Amends too. If you reduce all these down, they should take Amends down to 10% to put it also inline with all the rest. </blockquote>They actually have nerfed amends a couple times in the past thank you very much. This update in no way effects our tanking or agro ability. In fact it moves paladins higher up on the rung of tanking because of the hate nerfs and amends becoming more powerful due to the 50% hate cap. </blockquote> It needs to be lowered to be inline with all the other aggro spells.

[K'aldar]

you're just one of those guardians in a [Removed for Content] mood because of the change and lashing out... its alright its not that big a deal.  btw even if amends was nerfed to make it more in line it would be 30% siphon.   assassin hate xfer before change at master, 29%.. paladin, 41%... just keeping it an even ratio from how it is now to how it would be then. I've mainly played an assassin and paladin on raids, but dabbled in all of the classes.. and i agree with those that are saying this is a good change, making everyone work a little bit better to manage their classes... not just mash buttons but actually keep an awareness going at all times not to push the limit.  On that note i do believe you mages are screwed... If anything they should have increased troub dehate some to compensate, not lessening it.. your aggro is bad enough as it is.

[NiteWolfe]

i understand they have stated hate increaser's cap at 50%. My question is does anyone know for a fact if hate transfers work the same as hate increase. The way iam reading those delves on the coercer and bard bufs is diferant than a scouts hate transfer. the hate increasers seem to simply make the tanks arratcks or taunts do more hate IE tank hits mob with out gain bufs and gains 100 hate . with  capped bufs he would gain 150 hate.  That does not sound the same as a scouts transfer we actualy feed the a part of the hate we gain to  the tank. If that makes any sense?  I simply like to know if the devs have stated that transfer and gain bufs  work the same and if they stack or not. Since we cant see hate numbers in a visable way really only a dev could tell us if this is true or not.

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

I believe the dev that said there was caps said there was a 50% cap on hate gain, and a separate 50% cap on hate transfer.

[Bewts]

<p>Well my tables didn't work out too well, N/M</p>

[Dragonlancer]

Ok, so you have Player A and Player B PLayer B gives Player A Hate Gain (50% Max) Player B gives Player A Hate Transfer (50% Max) Player A (Paladin) gets hate from Player B (??% max) By not adjusting the Amends spell, you have stacked the deck. Come on SOE Devs, you have nerfed all the aggro spells, might as well get the Amends too.

[Bewts]

<cite>Dragonlancer99 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok, so you have Player A and Player B PLayer B gives Player A Hate Gain (50% Max) Player B gives Player A Hate Transfer (50% Max) Player A (Paladin) gets hate from Player B (??% max) By not adjusting the Amends spell, you have stacked the deck. Come on SOE Devs, you have nerfed all the aggro spells, might as well get the Amends too. </blockquote><p> I'm still sure the Guardian is the best choice to tank most epic content.  You have more tools for that than a Paladin - no?  Not everyone can be the best choice to hold aggro and the best choice to take the hits.  Guards take the hits best, have some of the better aggro skills available when coupled with the right classes.  Its not a nerf, but a niche given to an unwanted raid class (Paladins)</p><p>Have really high DPS and can't hold aggro?  Overheal the Paladin and burn the mob down.</p><p>Have really high DPS, hold aggro well but the mob hits like a mac truck and your paladin keeps dying?  Heal the Guardian and adjust your raid setup to better handle aggro.</p><p>Or better yet, invite a monk or two and have them de-aggro half the raid members by 13k to 17k per minute.</p><p>Think outside the box and stop screaming nerf because your throne is threatened.</p>

[Dragonlancer]

Its not a Guardian vs Paladin fight. Its an aggro nerf than needs to fully done, not just a few classes, but get them all so we do not have go thru this again at some later date.

[Bewts]

<p>Oh?  </p><p>By that reasoning then we should remove all the effects Monks are getting on aggro control (because its going up and replacing the current aggro management).  </p><p>We can also toss the 5% increase to our taunt resistablity as well.  </p><p>And the Mongoose Stance de-aggro that went up?  Lets put that back too.  Better yet lets drop it a little.</p><p>And since we are at it, lets give brawlers a second AE taunt that is not encounter specific.</p><p>They could also use a reactive hate proc that other fighters have.  It makes sense a mob would get enraged the more it misses its target, no?</p><p>Don't let me forget to nerf the hate transfer monks get through EoF AA lines.  Gotta fix that one, right?  Lets make it 1% hate transfer to fighters and 3% transfer to the Monk from non-fighters instead of the 4/9 it is now.</p><p>If you want hate management fixed, then <b>F'ing mean it.</b>  Otherwise you are just another guardian swinging the nerf flag wildly because your domain at the top in all categories (mitigation, aggro management, avoidance) are being challenged.</p><p>I'm pretty sure there are plenty of other redheaded step children fighters whose classes have been neglected that can explain how their class needs a change to aggro management.</p>

[Dragonlancer]

Again, its not a Guardian vs Monk. Its an aggro nerf. I am simply pointing were some of the flaws are. It seems your the one so upset. I want to get it all done at one time and not piece mill it. Nerf it all and be done with it.

[Controlor]

OK here is a compromise between the people who think this is an ok thing and those who hate it...... Altho i am sure there will be no "compromise" as people would think its all or nothing but i digress. <b>Troub</b> drops to 37% stead of 34% (because they said a drop of 3%) <b>Coercer </b>drop to 20% / 20%. This would be a bit more "fair" as otherwise if you total up the M1 its dropping a total of 15% (highest drop of anyone) <b>Dirge</b> can stay at 36% thats fine <b>Assassin</b> drop to 21 or 22% <b>Ranger</b> drop to 30-33% (stead of to 27% which is the second bigest hit at 14% loss) <b>Swashy</b> drop to 20% (swashy is currently lower than assassins and should stay that way after the "nerf&quot<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> If they did that it would be an over all decrease sure but not as "severe". Totaling up: <b>MT Group:</b> Coercer + Dirge + Assassin = 56% hate increase 41-42% hate transfer. Sure doesnt cap transfer but its close enough for you to not have "AGRO ISSUES" <b> Troub in Scout group:</b> Ranger gets well over cap in hate decreaser so they cant complain (even tho as is a troub in scout group would cap ranger also <b> Troub in Mage group:</b> Bit more agro management for mages but only 3%. This wont make it the "OMG I AM GOING TO BE T2 DPS by loosing 1k of my dps because of hate" that people seem to think (even if they havent said that directly thats the distinct impression i am getting). There thats that. Its at least trying to meet some middle ground between what they currently have in test and what they have now. They DO IMO need to drop the hate gain/transfer/loss from what it currently is but it seems a bit harsh dropping it as low as they want. They can easily adjust the hate transfer upwards a bit to be more of a middle ground.

[Couching]

<cite>Dragonlancer99 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok, so you have Player A and Player B PLayer B gives Player A Hate Gain (50% Max) Player B gives Player A Hate Transfer (50% Max) Player A (Paladin) gets hate from Player B (??% max) By not adjusting the Amends spell, you have stacked the deck. Come on SOE Devs, you have nerfed all the aggro spells, might as well get the Amends too. </blockquote>I have different idea. The reason that SoE didn't nerf pal amend is straight. Pal needs something better than other fighters. In fact, the only advantage to invite a pal over guard/zerker is aggro control with amend. If you nerfed amend, what has pal left? I am glad that SoE finally did a right step, there shouldn't be a perfect class in this game. Every class should has its advantage over other classes.

[otlg]

Takuya@Mistmoore wrote: <blockquote>Yup I'm glad to see brawlers have gotten a small boost in utility.  And as for you aggro whiners: If you are basing your entire survivability on a ~20% percentage loss on MT you suck at playing. God forbid scouts have to use deaggro abilities now. </blockquote><p>Ok, first of all to all the whining brawlers on this forum of late:  Just because your raid leaders are too frigging stupid to know how to use you guys on raid already isn't Sony's fault.</p><p>To Takuya directly:  Before I say this let me say; I'm a priest.  I also lead raids (quite effectively).  This change isn't bad for scouts.  This change is bad for YOU, not them.  I'll make is easy for you, since you're obviously not able to see what's going to happen:</p><p>Less hate for the tank means it's easier for you to pull hate.  Since you as a Warlock are already doing everything in your power to not get hate and still getting dead way too often on raid, guess what... you're going to pull hate more often now.  This change is ALOT bigger than anyone thinks.  It means all DPS is going to have to be backed down.  That backing down means fights are going to last longer.  The longer fights are going to stress the priests out more trying to keep the tank alive.  Mages are going to be falling even faster than before.</p><p>Scouts are going to have to get rid of that hate in other ways, and the only ways to do that costs DPS.  Now you're going to have priests out of power and raids wiping as tanks fold up because they can't get healing.  So the next thing that will happen is that you'll get a DPS class dropped out in favor of a class with power regen or hate decreasers.  That's just going to make the problem worse.</p><p>Oh and smart guy, while all the scouts are figuring this out and dieing, they won't be DPSing and your raid will be wiping.  You warlocks are probably going to have it worse than any other class by the very nature of what you do and how you do it.</p><p>The other thing this change does is give the raid leader LESS flexibility in putting together the main tank group.  As a raid leader this change pisses me off. Now I'm going to need the perfect MT group for anything but sh** zones like Labs and Lyceum and whatnot.</p>

[Gareorn]

<cite>otlg wrote:</cite><blockquote>Takuya@Mistmoore wrote: <blockquote>Yup I'm glad to see brawlers have gotten a small boost in utility.  And as for you aggro whiners: If you are basing your entire survivability on a ~20% percentage loss on MT you suck at playing. God forbid scouts have to use deaggro abilities now. </blockquote><p>Ok, first of all to all the whining brawlers on this forum of late:  Just because your raid leaders are too frigging stupid to know how to use you guys on raid already isn't Sony's fault.</p><p>To Takuya directly:  Before I say this let me say; I'm a priest.  I also lead raids (quite effectively).  This change isn't bad for scouts.  This change is bad for YOU, not them.  I'll make is easy for you, since you're obviously not able to see what's going to happen:</p><p>Less hate for the tank means it's easier for you to pull hate.  Since you as a Warlock are already doing everything in your power to not get hate and still getting dead way too often on raid, guess what... you're going to pull hate more often now.  This change is ALOT bigger than anyone thinks.  It means all DPS is going to have to be backed down.  That backing down means fights are going to last longer.  The longer fights are going to stress the priests out more trying to keep the tank alive.  Mages are going to be falling even faster than before.</p><p>Scouts are going to have to get rid of that hate in other ways, and the only ways to do that costs DPS.  Now you're going to have priests out of power and raids wiping as tanks fold up because they can't get healing.  So the next thing that will happen is that you'll get a DPS class dropped out in favor of a class with power regen or hate decreasers.  That's just going to make the problem worse.</p><p>Oh and smart guy, while all the scouts are figuring this out and dieing, they won't be DPSing and your raid will be wiping.  You warlocks are probably going to have it worse than any other class by the very nature of what you do and how you do it.</p><p>The other thing this change does is give the raid leader LESS flexibility in putting together the main tank group.  As a raid leader this change pisses me off. Now I'm going to need the perfect MT group for anything but sh** zones like Labs and Lyceum and whatnot.</p></blockquote>Holy cow!  Someone actually understands the team concept and how these changes are going to affect the entire raid force.  The changes will also widen the gap bewteen the typical raid guilds who are able to maintain with the classes they have and build an optimal raid force when their players can fit it into their hectic schedules, and the hardcore raid guilds who can built the optimum raid force 5 days a week.

[tt66]

<cite>otlg wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Ok, first of all to all the whining brawlers on this forum of late:  Just because your raid leaders are too frigging stupid to know how to use you guys on raid already isn't Sony's fault.</p></blockquote>You seem to have some valid points, and so rather than totally discount them on the basis of this statement, I wonder if you'd care to clarify it somewhat? Specifically how, as a raid leader, you would have used us on raids? EDIT : <b>tracheaspider</b> is correct, this is best left for another thread. I should know better, I spent enough time yelling at people for derailing the various brawler threads! The use of the word "whine" goaded me. <i>mea culpa.</i>

[tracheaspider]

<cite>tt66 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>otlg wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Ok, first of all to all the whining brawlers on this forum of late:  Just because your raid leaders are too frigging stupid to know how to use you guys on raid already isn't Sony's fault.</p></blockquote>You seem to have some valid points, and so rather than totally discount them on the basis of this statement, I wonder if you'd care to clarify it somewhat? Specifically how, as a raid leader, you would have used us on raids? </blockquote> That would be a very nice topic for a different thread.  Thanks.  :p

[otlg]

<cite>tt66 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>otlg wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Ok, first of all to all the whining brawlers on this forum of late:  Just because your raid leaders are too frigging stupid to know how to use you guys on raid already isn't Sony's fault.</p></blockquote>You seem to have some valid points, and so rather than totally discount them on the basis of this statement, I wonder if you'd care to clarify it somewhat? Specifically how, as a raid leader, you would have used us on raids? EDIT : <b>tracheaspider</b> is correct, this is best left for another thread. I should know better, I spent enough time yelling at people for derailing the various brawler threads! The use of the word "whine" goaded me. <i>mea culpa.</i> </blockquote><p>Ok, perhaps the whining was a bit much, but I got really upset when someone viewed this agro nerf as a good thing for brawlers and therefore justified.  As I've said in other threads, brawlers need some loving, but there are encounters in this game where brawlers are EXTREMELY handy.  I'll just give you a very vague hint here, but I love to have 2 of them handy for the 2nd name in FTH for example (and now I'm really not going to say anymore before Sony goes and changes certain encounters AGAIN).</p><p>Bruisers and Monks in the right situation are very effective classes, and I agree they need some loving, but, and this is what irked me, not to the point of ruining the entire end game for eveyrone else, I'm sorry. </p>

[Siclone]

<cite>EvilIguana966 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Changes all look eminently reasonable.  Gratz scouts, easy mode is off.  Welcome to our game.  </blockquote><p>nothing easy about the close poistion demands to do something, while casters stand in the back and push buttons.</p><p> anyway, this will not be a big deal for scouts, everyone else will be effected as much or more when the tank has less hate.  </p>

[Ruut Li]

<cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>EvilIguana966 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Changes all look eminently reasonable.  Gratz scouts, easy mode is off.  Welcome to our game.  </blockquote><p>nothing easy about the close poistion demands to do something, while casters stand in the back and push buttons.</p><p> anyway, this will not be a big deal for scouts, everyone else will be effected as much or more when the tank has less hate.  </p></blockquote> yea its rocket science placing your [Removed for Content] behind a mob and MASH ca:s..just as as a sorc finding the spot to avoid aoe and still reach the mob and if Im really eager to impress I would want to run in close and drop a blue aoe and juggling dps/aggro management and....so on so on.

[Cocytus]

*shrugs* Aggro changes aren't going to hurt my dps a bit. If all you mages want to keep lying to yourselves while watching your dps reduced a bit, be my guest.

[Siclone]

Ruut Li wrote: <blockquote><cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>EvilIguana966 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Changes all look eminently reasonable.  Gratz scouts, easy mode is off.  Welcome to our game.  </blockquote><p>nothing easy about the close poistion demands to do something, while casters stand in the back and push buttons.</p><p> anyway, this will not be a big deal for scouts, everyone else will be effected as much or more when the tank has less hate.  </p></blockquote> yea its rocket science placing your [I cannot control my vocabulary] behind a mob and MASH ca:s..just as as a sorc finding the spot to avoid aoe and still reach the mob and if Im really eager to impress I would want to run in close and drop a blue aoe and juggling dps/aggro management and....so on so on.</blockquote>no, its not rocket science but its not as easy as standing anywhere you want and push a button,,, with multiple mobs in a raid with all them bodies around it takes some skill to get behind and most important it takes time away from attacking.  Takes time to get in position and if the mob turns at all it messes you all up. Not to mention full AE damage you have to eat. what does a caster have to worry about?  adjusting his panties dude face it you wear a dress and dont know what your talking about....if you think scouts are easy mode, ie assassin you never played one, there is no other class that works harder for dps then assassin...

[Ruut Li]

<cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ruut Li wrote: <blockquote><cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>EvilIguana966 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Changes all look eminently reasonable.  Gratz scouts, easy mode is off.  Welcome to our game.  </blockquote><p>nothing easy about the close poistion demands to do something, while casters stand in the back and push buttons.</p><p> anyway, this will not be a big deal for scouts, everyone else will be effected as much or more when the tank has less hate.  </p></blockquote> yea its rocket science placing your [I cannot control my vocabulary] behind a mob and MASH ca:s..just as as a sorc finding the spot to avoid aoe and still reach the mob and if Im really eager to impress I would want to run in close and drop a blue aoe and juggling dps/aggro management and....so on so on.</blockquote>no, its not rocket science but its not as easy as standing anywhere you want and push a button,,, with multiple mobs in a raid with all them bodies around it takes some skill to get behind and most important it takes time away from attacking.  Takes time to get in position and if the mob turns at all it messes you all up. Not to mention full AE damage you have to eat. what does a caster have to worry about?  adjusting his panties dude face it you wear a dress and dont know what your talking about....if you think scouts are easy mode, ie assassin you never played one, there is no other class that works harder for dps then assassin... </blockquote><p> No little wow kid (if you act like one ill call you one), I have never said that preds are easy to play; see another response to you from me in another thread...No class is rocket science, we are playing a game, some classes are more complicated, but its still not rocket science.</p><p>Its your utter ignorance of the sorc class that deserves teasing. You think im busy adjusting my thong? ah well you seem to need a compass finding the [Removed for Content] of the mob. If it was an encounter of brownies I would feel sympathy no matter how ignorant you are.</p><p>This is what you want rigth? wow flames..impressive <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>My dad is stronger than yours.</p>

[slippery]

Coercers pull agro not because stuns and stiffles and power drains and debuffs generate a ton of agro, Coercers pull agro because they have a ton of spike damage. When a mob AE's and 5 procs of Spell Scourge go off and the mob hit your tank right before and right after to trigger Auspex a few times you just did a ton of spike dps. That is why the mob comes after you, because you did high spike dps. You can sit there all fight long on a trash mob and it just won't come after you ever unless your tank really really sucks because your dps is a pile of crap and won't spike ever. Against a named your dps isn't even remotely consistent so sucks for a transfer. Wow, you give spike dps so every once in a while you might transfer something that for a couple seconds helps the tank hold agro, but it isn't even a remotely reliable transfer.

[Ookami-san]

<p>I have no problems at all with this nerf... as long as they remove all experience debt from the affected classes and give them all feign death to make up for the complete nerf or complete lack of foresight.... oh... and a few months of free gaming would be nice... and yes... I'd like fries with that!</p><p>Oh... and please... no BULLSH*T about this is how you intended it to be all along.  Let's face it... if that's the case, you shouldn't just be fired... but taken out and shot.  The fact is... it's been this way from the beginning and if you need to change it... it's because you've screwed up.  Suck it up... and either throw us a bone to make up for it... or get it the #$%#$% out of the GU.</p>

[Vydar]

Yay!  So I have to stop using my Fettering to help keep mobs rooted and start using Ignorant Bliss + Frontload just to stay alive. Do the dev's even play the game?  Or read the forums? Do they think that, "Oh, they're whining a lot, but it will really make the game more fun for them, we know better than they do.  They will enjoy the challenge of dying over and over again, breaking their armor and racking up repair bills while wishing they could finish the zones that they can no longer max dps on."  ? < confused.

[Vydar]

<cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ruut Li wrote: <blockquote><cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>EvilIguana966 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Changes all look eminently reasonable.  Gratz scouts, easy mode is off.  Welcome to our game.  </blockquote><p>nothing easy about the close poistion demands to do something, while casters stand in the back and push buttons.</p><p> anyway, this will not be a big deal for scouts, everyone else will be effected as much or more when the tank has less hate.  </p></blockquote> yea its rocket science placing your [I cannot control my vocabulary] behind a mob and MASH ca:s..just as as a sorc finding the spot to avoid aoe and still reach the mob and if Im really eager to impress I would want to run in close and drop a blue aoe and juggling dps/aggro management and....so on so on.</blockquote>no, its not rocket science but its not as easy as standing anywhere you want and push a button,,, with multiple mobs in a raid with all them bodies around it takes some skill to get behind and most important it takes time away from attacking.  Takes time to get in position and if the mob turns at all it messes you all up. Not to mention full AE damage you have to eat. what does a caster have to worry about?  adjusting his panties dude face it you wear a dress and dont know what your talking about....if you think scouts are easy mode, ie assassin you never played one, there is no other class that works harder for dps then assassin... </blockquote>While I agree with you that assassin is a tough class (all big attacks must be done while in stealth, positional, must do everything in the correct order without taking hate, must know tons about proc's, haste, poisons, research all that info) it does not at all mean that everyone else's classes are easy. You wanna know who really works hardest for their dps? A troub.  A dirge.  Guardians.  These all also work very hard for their dps.  What you might call button mashing they call choosing what order they mash said buttons or learning how to spec their toons.

[Gonzo550]

<p>I do feel guards can control agro way too easily but not because of their hate transfer. As a zerker, it's a constant battle for me, while a guard has to just hit reenforcements or something and poof, he's on top. I can have tanked a mob for 70 percent and our guard can walk up and take it reight from me, not using rescue even. It sucks. Palis are just as bad. In my old guild a pali would end up tanking because he would amends a warlock and get massive hate over the guard. My current guild in fact use to use and still sometimes does use a pali tank. Sure it's fun playing a wiz and killing a pali through amends but realistically, amends is too much. </p><p>Zerkers need more help. 1- We don't get the respect we deserve - same mit buffs as guards but zerkers get permanent strength while guards get permanent defense and hitpoints - and can get strength in offensive stance. come on. Our offensive stance has a pisspoor proc at best. This is not equal.</p><p>2- doubleattack in the guard line but not in the zerker line? this is an old rant but made even more apparent when a guard can get his best agro control (reenforcements) down to a like 1:15 recast. My best damage is destruction with 2:30 recast - maybe 2:15 in some AA builds with at best 12 procs, usually 10. And lets not fail to mention the crappy eof fabled set bonuses. Seven pieces gives only 9 percent DA? [I cannot control my vocabulary]. Five items gives 30 seconds off a CA with a 1 minute recast, that just sucks compaired to guards</p><p>3- reactive taunts. Guard's reactive triggers way more than zerker (50 percent verses 20) for the same hate. Sure we get some VARIABLE damage but it's half as much as the hate proc. In the end, the guard will win. In a raid, if an add gets on our guard, it takes everything including sometimes a rescue to get a popped add off. </p><p>My guildleader has the misconception that zerkers are DPS. Bring us more survivability/hate for the zerker and make us just desireable to tank as a guard or at least a pali.</p><p>And yes, I'm all mastered and in fabled gear with a high degree of skill in playing my class.</p>

[Risingmyst]

<span style="color: #9999cc">Juggernaughtt@Kithicor wrote: </span> <blockquote><span style="color: #9999cc" class="postbody"> As a zerker, it's a constant battle for me, while a guard has to just hit reenforcements or something and poof, he's on top. I can have tanked a mob for 70 percent and our guard can walk up and take it reight from me, not using rescue even. It sucks. Palis are just as bad. In my old guild a pali would end up tanking because he would amends a warlock and get massive hate over the guard. My current guild in fact use to use and still sometimes does use a pali tank. Sure it's fun playing a wiz and killing a pali through amends but realistically, amends is too much.</span></blockquote><span style="color: #9999cc">  </span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman"">Now hang on. As a Paladin I have seen most zerkers out parce my Paladin and have much more hate taunts and such. The only reason to have a Paladin now a days in raids is for the amends and at this moment that isnt taken advantage of in game. With this hate transfer nerf for all classes but Paladins help us Paladins be more useful.    Now before everyone freaks on me keep in mind I very much disagree with the hate nerfs. I think that SOE has some screw loose about this issue, but I KNOW that Paladins are NOT used very much in raids because we cant hold aggro well enough, we have too little DPS, and we have crap buffs (except for Amends) and we cant heal a whole lot. So can you HONESTLY tell me that the Paladin is getting too much love over Guard/Zerker class????? you guys out do us so easily now. The only way I have ever been able to pull agro away from MT is though Smite Evil and Consecrate used in conjunction with each other and when triggered too early. It is only fair that the Paladin get something that can be contributed to Raids so that for a change we can be invited to Raids.     You also need to know that Amends works for only ONE member in the GROUP and if you have more then one high dps/Hater(you know what I mean) Amends isnt gonna help too much for the raid. The whole point of Hate transfer for the scouts and mages is to give the hate to the MT and with that nerf, the Paladin still isnt gonna be able to help much cause we can only affect ONE toon. Please explain to me how we Paladins are getting too much love on Amends?????????     Now on to you Guard freaks that were saying that Amends should be nerfed too. I oughta smack you up side your head. <span style="color: #ff3300">YOU ARENT LOSING YOUR PRECIOUS MT SPOT!!!</span> What is actualy happening is the Paladin will become more useful in taking the MOST hated toons hate away and helping save the raid. <span style="color: #ff3300">PALADINS WILL NEVER HAVE THE HEALTH, MIT, OR AGRO/TAUNTS that you have. GET OVER AMENDS ALREADY!!!!!!!</span> You will always be MT just because you will forever hold more agro and take more hits longer then we will ever be able to.    I am just letting all you Guards/Zerkers know that although Amends will not be nerfed, it will not change too much of the play for you. It will offer the Paladin a place in the raid that was forever denied based on the said issues (see above). Geez its situations like this that really tick me off, just when something lets the Paladin bring something to raids the guards and zerkers throw a fit saying it isnt fair. WHAT ISNT FAIR IS THAT NO RAID NEEDS A PLATE TOON THAT CANT CONTRIBUTE ENOUGH TO THE RAID!!!!! GET IT THROUGH YOUR THICK TANK HEADS... LET US PALADINS HAVE SOMETHING TO OFFER FOR ONCE!!!!!!!!</span><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman"">Now I am done with my little rant, I mean no offence to anyone. Now before I sign off I must admit before someone else points out that I missed the other issues with this nerf to other classes..... I KNOW mages and scouts get the short end of the stick. I dont like it either. I have a Wizard and a Swashy so I feel the pain too. I am just pointing out that you all rail on the one thing that helps the Paladin be worth anything to a raid with out realizing the situations for us.</span> <span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman""> </span>

[Madmoon]

<cite>EvilIguana966 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Changes all look eminently reasonable.  Gratz scouts, easy mode is off.  Welcome to our game.  </blockquote><p> <img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>But... but... I wanna just spam my CAs while I chat!</p>

[Madmoon]

otlg wrote: <blockquote><p>Less hate for the tank means it's easier for you to pull hate.  Since you as a Warlock are already doing everything in your power to not get hate and still getting dead way too often on raid, guess what... you're going to pull hate more often now.  This change is ALOT bigger than anyone thinks.  It means all DPS is going to have to be backed down.  That backing down means fights are going to last longer.  The longer fights are going to stress the priests out more trying to keep the tank alive.  Mages are going to be falling even faster than before.</p><p>Scouts are going to have to get rid of that hate in other ways, and the only ways to do that costs DPS.  Now you're going to have priests out of power and raids wiping as tanks fold up because they can't get healing.  So the next thing that will happen is that you'll get a DPS class dropped out in favor of a class with power regen or hate decreasers.  That's just going to make the problem worse.</p><p>Oh and smart guy, while all the scouts are figuring this out and dieing, they won't be DPSing and your raid will be wiping.</p></blockquote><p>"And I looked, and he opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake. And the sun became as black as sack cloth, and the moon became as blood.  And the seas boiled and the skies fell...  Fire and brimstone coming down from the skies!  Rivers and seas boiling!  Forty years of darkness!  Earthquakes, volcanoes...  The dead rising from the grave... Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together - mass hysteria!"</p><p>That's it, no more raids for me!  Straight crafting, and maybe I'll e-mail people pies now and again. </p>

[SageGaspar]

<cite>Madmoon wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>That's it, no more raids for me!  Straight crafting, and maybe I'll e-mail people pies now and again. </p></blockquote>It's true. This man has no [Removed for Content].

[Gareorn]

Ruut Li wrote: <blockquote>yea its rocket science placing your [I cannot control my vocabulary] behind a mob and MASH ca:s..just as as a sorc finding the spot to avoid aoe and still reach the mob and if Im really eager to impress I would want to run in close and drop a blue aoe and juggling dps/aggro management and....so on so on.</blockquote><p>As someone who plays classes that fight from range and require close-in positioning for melee attacks, I feel comfortable saying this response is rediculous.  It's easy to stay at max range.  Your spells/CAs tell you when you're in range or out of range.  And, jousting-in between AEs is childs play.  AE goes off > run in > cycle through attacks/spells > run back out > continue mashing hot buttons until next AE.  Rinse and repeat.</p><p>Trying to find a mobs hiney and placing yourself inside 5 meters directly behind it with all the other mobs and 15 other players all stacked on top of each other, then doing again to the second mob, then the third mob, etc. while jousting out to avoid the AEs takes just a tad bit more effort.</p><p>Yea, it's not rocket science, but it sure as heck is a lot harder than fighting from range.  If you really want to impress someone, go stick a daggar (the pointy thing) in the mob or hit a mob with your stick while you're waiting for the tank to gain enough aggro for you to throw off a nuke. </p>

[EvilIguana9]

<cite>Cocytus wrote:</cite><blockquote>*shrugs* Aggro changes aren't going to hurt my dps a bit. If all you mages want to keep lying to yourselves while watching your dps reduced a bit, be my guest.</blockquote> Statements like this reinforce the reasoning behind the nerf.  If you can get your de-aggros nerfed, keep doing the same DPS, and still NOT pull aggro, then it's very apparent you were overpowered to begin with.  I happen to believe that you are just exaggerating.  You and most other scouts will either need to cut back on dps or start investing in better means of reducing hate.  Furthermore the assertion that sorcerers will be doing reduced DPS is based on the assumption that sorcs always benefit from scout hate transfers.  Assuming no change in strategy on the part of tanks and support classes, sorcs will only have that problem in groups with Assasins and Swashies.  They see no change in the aggro threshold if they aren't grouping with said classes.  Even still, having to throttle back DPS a bit would be worth it if it means that your competition has to as well.  See, unlike the real world, in the game being better off in an absolute sense is not as important as how you compare to competing classes.  That's because fun is not directly proportional to how powerful your character is.  You could have God mode and a laser goggles and you might be able to kill Wuoshi in a second by staring at him, but you'd be bored as hell in short order.  More powerful is not always more fun; it can be, but the relationship is very complex.  Your power in relation to the other competing classes in a game, however, is usually directly proportional to fun.  This is because a key aspect of the game is maximizing your and your group's power against the game, in other words, competition.  It doesn't feel good to be held back because your class choice happens to be handicapped.  Furthermore there are real implications to playing a gimped class: when given the option players will choose a non-handicapped class to join their group/raid/guild.  Ultimately, the change brings sorcerers and scouts closer together, even if it makes everyone very slightly less powerful.  The bottom line is there is no content in the game that has been doable that will suddenly become impossible.  The occurrence of situations where a given group of players could complete X before the patch but can't after will be very minute.  But it will be easier to justify grouping a sorcerer rather than a scout now that they are closer in ability, anfd that will improve the fun factor for a significant segment of the population. 

[Gareorn]

<cite>EvilIguana966 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cocytus wrote:</cite><blockquote>*shrugs* Aggro changes aren't going to hurt my dps a bit. If all you mages want to keep lying to yourselves while watching your dps reduced a bit, be my guest.</blockquote> Statements like this reinforce the reasoning behind the nerf.  If you can get your de-aggros nerfed, keep doing the same DPS, and still NOT pull aggro, then it's very apparent you were overpowered to begin with.  I happen to believe that you are just exaggerating.  You and most other scouts will either need to cut back on dps or start investing in better means of reducing hate.  </blockquote><p>Sorry, but I didn't read beyond this point because it is obvious that you don't how hate transfer affects the raid force.  The more DPS he does, the more hate gets transfered.  He's correct, reducing his hate transfer does not affect his DPS at all.  If anything, he'll be pressured to increase his DPS thereby increrasing the amount of hate transfered to the tank.  If his hate transfer is nerfed, then the rest of the raid force's DPS is what's going to drop, not his.  Hate transfer is not about keeping hate off of yourself, it's about keeping the tanks hate higher than everyone else's.</p><p>Exaggerating and overpowering doesn't even fit into the equation.  If he cuts back on his DPS, he'll also be cutting back on the hate transfered to the tank.  The issue is isn't about reducing his hate. </p>