Luck of the Dirge Nerf

[Draggoz]

Why did LoTD % need to be reduced again?  How does anyone at SOE thing that a dirge with a 25% bonus to procs is overpowered is beyond me(Don't bring up the effect is has on other players). FYI Sony: There is absolutely nothing you could possibly change in the control line that would make me want to switch to it in its current state, it is a total crap line. <p>Dirge</p><ul><li>Enhance: Sapping Shot: Improved reuse speed from 1.5 to 2 seconds per rank.</li></ul><span style="color: #cc0000">Waste of power.</span> <ul><li>Enhance: Lanet's Excruciating Scream: Improved reuse speed from 1.5 to 2 seconds per rank.</li></ul><span style="color: #cc0000">Lanets was a great spell before you nerfed it from its awesome termination damage to its waste of mana damage now.</span><ul><li>Enhance: Garsin's Funeral March: Improved reuse speed from 2 to 3 seconds per rank.</li></ul><span style="color: #cc0000">Maybe if it didn't break the second I do anything it would be usefull.</span> <ul><li>Enhance: Wail of Woe: Improved percentage from 4% to 8% per rank.</li></ul><span style="color: #cc0000">This is that spell that serves no purpose other than completing Heroic Ops isn't it.</span> <ul><li>Confront Fear: Increased Reuse speed from 60s to 45s. Health and Power regeneration now work in combat.</li></ul><span style="color: #cc0000">This has been live for how long and has apparently not worked as it was designed.  GG SOE.</span> <ul><li>Luck of the Dirge: Reduced bonus from 25% to 20%.</li></ul><span style="color: #cc0000">OMG lets nerf the third greatest dirge ability in game. GG SOE.</span> <ul><li>Magnetic Note: Increased reuse speed from 90 to 60s. Duration increased from 5 to 6 seconds. Can only be used if an enemy is already in combat. Its triggered effect uses Aggression skill adjustments, and it is resisted less often.</li></ul><span style="color: #cc0000">Doubt it will work.  Knowing the great coding ability of some staff it probly does a aggression skill check on the Dirge.  End result=0 Aggression=Resisted.  GG SOE.</span> Wow look at all the quality upgrades every other class in game gets. GG SOE.

[naMessiah]

<cite>Draggoz wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why did LoTD % need to be reduced again?  How does anyone at SOE thing that a dirge with a 25% bonus to procs is overpowered is beyond me(Don't bring up the effect is has on other players). FYI Sony: There is absolutely nothing you could possibly change in the control line that would make me want to switch to it in its current state, it is a total crap line. <p>Dirge</p><ul><li>Enhance: Sapping Shot: Improved reuse speed from 1.5 to 2 seconds per rank.</li></ul><span style="color: #cc0000">Waste of power.</span> <ul><li>Enhance: Lanet's Excruciating Scream: Improved reuse speed from 1.5 to 2 seconds per rank.</li></ul><span style="color: #cc0000">Lanets was a great spell before you nerfed it from its awesome termination damage to its waste of mana damage now.</span><ul><li>Enhance: Garsin's Funeral March: Improved reuse speed from 2 to 3 seconds per rank.</li></ul><span style="color: #cc0000">Maybe if it didn't break the second I do anything it would be usefull.</span> <ul><li>Enhance: Wail of Woe: Improved percentage from 4% to 8% per rank.</li></ul><span style="color: #cc0000">This is that spell that serves no purpose other than completing Heroic Ops isn't it.</span> <ul><li>Confront Fear: Increased Reuse speed from 60s to 45s. Health and Power regeneration now work in combat.</li></ul><span style="color: #cc0000">This has been live for how long and has apparently not worked as it was designed.  GG SOE.</span> <ul><li>Luck of the Dirge: Reduced bonus from 25% to 20%.</li></ul><span style="color: #cc0000">OMG lets nerf the third greatest dirge ability in game. GG SOE.</span> <ul><li>Magnetic Note: Increased reuse speed from 90 to 60s. Duration increased from 5 to 6 seconds. Can only be used if an enemy is already in combat. Its triggered effect uses Aggression skill adjustments, and it is resisted less often.</li></ul><span style="color: #cc0000">Doubt it will work.  Knowing the great coding ability of some staff it probly does a aggression skill check on the Dirge.  End result=0 Aggression=Resisted.  GG SOE.</span> Wow look at all the quality upgrades every other class in game gets. GG SOE. </blockquote> Well said. None of the "upgrades" makes up for the nerf of LotD. What I love most is that Lanets, Sapping Shot and Garsin's reuse timers were all nerfed before EoF went live. Then they gave us a choice to get some of it back with AA's. And now they boost it a bit more and we're soon back to where they were pre-EoF <img src="/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[kreepr]

<span style="color: #ff0000">BBAAAAAHHHHHHH LAME <img src="/smilies/e78feac27fa924c4d0ad6cf5819f3554.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><img src="/smilies/e78feac27fa924c4d0ad6cf5819f3554.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><img src="/smilies/e78feac27fa924c4d0ad6cf5819f3554.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><img src="/smilies/e78feac27fa924c4d0ad6cf5819f3554.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><img src="/smilies/e78feac27fa924c4d0ad6cf5819f3554.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span>

[Dynaen]

<p>Luck of the Dirge nerf seems as pointless and stupid as the Brigand's Tenure nerf by 3%.  (I have level 70s in both classes)  I don't see any reason or justification for it other than trying to make the crappier aa lines look more appealing.</p><p>God knows we can't see good improvements like buyback and travel in EoF without screwing up various abilities for no reason to make updates like this less appealing.  Just once I'd enjoy seeing all good changes and not unjustified and unexplained nerfs other than "because we can."</p>

[Nathdorl]

i think every single change to some class in this LU37 is only one thing: its plain stupid and pointless

[Triste-Lune]

yet again SOE shows it s plain stupidity.

[Mildavyn]

<cite>Draggoz wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why did LoTD % need to be reduced again?  How does anyone at SOE thing that a dirge with a 25% bonus to procs is overpowered is beyond me<b><u>(Don't bring up the effect is has on other players)</u></b>. </blockquote><p> Why not? Does it suddenly not work on the other 5 people in your group? This is like asking someone why you shouldn't drink battery acid and then telling them that the fact that you'll die in less than 3 seconds can't be included.</p><p>I love Game Update time, because the forums fill with whiny people complaining about every little nerf that is intended, and even some that aren't. I swear, half the people replying to these threads dont even read the changes, just moan about nerfs. Hell, there was a few posters in the Troub changes post that were complaining about perceived nerfs that had the word IMPROVED in their descriptions. If I was a Dev, I'd be sitting in my office killing myself with laughter at you all.</p><p>And to anyone who thinks their class is broken now, all I have to say is this: Toughen up princess!</p><p>***DISCLAIMER***</p><p>Yes, it is a nerf, but realistically, are you even going to notice the 1-3% extra proc chance you get from that extra 5%?</p>

[Triste-Lune]

Paikis Server: Venekor Guild: Dauntless Rank: Member PVP server disqualifies you. <blockquote>***DISCLAIMER*** Yes, it is a nerf, but realistically, are you even going to notice the 1-3% extra proc chance you get from that extra 5%?</blockquote> answer is yes it will be noticed and not by only 1 perso but by everyone in the group

[Mumblyfi]

Presently, the Luck line has both the best final ability and without question the best Achievements along the way. If I did not want Degredate for the reduced casting time, I would certainly put thirty points into the Luck tree to get every upgrade to five (it's perhaps worth noting that I'm on a PvP server, so 50% group-wide safe fall reduction and a noxious ward are most certainly worth the ten AAs); that's bananas, and I have no qualms with the developers taking steps to making the Luck line less attractive. A <i>slight</i> downgrade of Luck of the Dirge will not be enough to do that, however. Despite the changes to the Control and the later skills in the Life or Death line, they are still notably inferior to the Luck Achievements. The skills that fall under the aforementioned trees are just too shoddy in their current state to justify spending Achievements on their recast timers. Were, for example, Garsin's Funeral March and Cry of the Departed usable while moving, or were the range of certain spells brought up to Shriek standard, I would consider investing in them; I would even approve of tying those effects to Achievements, in an attempt to make those equally attractive to the Luck line. As an aside, I think it's a great shame that the Dirge's "best" abilities, Luck of the Dirge and Don't Kill the Messenger, are both passive abilities that use no Concentration slots. I would approve of any attempts to make the "active" abilities a Dirge possesses worth using more often, or altering said abilities to make them "active", if only for the sake of having more to do in group combat.

[JerronBlacksilver]

This is a pointless nerf simply because Dirges (Actually, bards in general) DON"T need nerfing. I mean really, when was the last time you saw a Dirge waving around [Removed for Content] trying to impress everyone in 60-69 chat with their parse? Or when was the last time you saw a Dirge parked AFK in Qeynos Harbor just so everyone can walk by and "ooooh and aaahhh" at all their shiny fabled plate? (Yes, there are raid tanks who do this.) As it is, the only thing that guarantees a bard a spot in a raid is Blade Dance (SOE, this is your fault for being so AoE happy...if you want to see more AA lines used for bards, tone down the AoE'S!) It's not like a raid force is over powered because of it's Über Dirges! As I said in another post, it's just a kick in the balls from SOE...Not fatal, but painful and humiliating all the same.

[Novusod]

I think the bards are somewhat over powered for raiding. Their need is over represented at this time in the ideal raid formation. There are only two bard classes and yet guilds will often bring four bards to a raid and sometimes up to three dirges. There will always be a need for dirges in the main tank group. The overuse of dirges in the other group set ups needs to be nerfed.

[JerronBlacksilver]

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think the bards are somewhat over powered for raiding. Their need is over represented at this time in the ideal raid formation. There are only two bard classes and yet guilds will often bring four bards to a raid and sometimes up to three dirges. There will always be a need for dirges in the main tank group. The overuse of dirges in the other group set ups needs to be nerfed. </blockquote>As I said...it's either bring 4 bards with Bladedance...or have the raid die horrible horrible deaths. SOE loves their massive AE's don't they?

[Cocytus]

Wow, what an incredibly stupid change. Why did EQ1 get all the good devs?

[Vydar]

Agreed... dirge's are great because of their buffs.  Why nerf the one thing they have going for them? I dual box my dirge in the melee dps group, and luck of the dirge is one of the best things going for it.  Bleh.

[Mildavyn]

<cite>Triste-Lune wrote:</cite><blockquote>Paikis Server: Venekor Guild: Shadows of Storm Rank: Member PVP server disqualifies you. <blockquote>***DISCLAIMER*** Yes, it is a nerf, but realistically, are you even going to notice the 1-3% extra proc chance you get from that extra 5%?</blockquote> answer is yes it will be noticed and not by only 1 perso but by everyone in the group</blockquote><p>Only people who pull every parse they have apart and dissect it will notice. It's not a huge nerf.</p><p>Second, why does playing on a PvP server mean my opinion doesn't count? Dirges on PvP have LotD as well. And on PvP servers, we raid things too. PvP servers are IDENTICAL to PvE servers, except they have PvP as well.</p><p>Seems to me that it's because my opinion isnt the same as yours is why, not because i know any less about the game. (PvPers generally know MORE than the PvE-ers, because we need to to stay alive) </p>

[Borias]

<cite>Triste-Lune wrote:</cite><blockquote>Paikis Server: Venekor Guild: Dauntless Rank: Member PVP server disqualifies you. <blockquote>***DISCLAIMER*** Yes, it is a nerf, but realistically, are you even going to notice the 1-3% extra proc chance you get from that extra 5%?</blockquote> answer is yes it will be noticed and not by only 1 perso but by everyone in the group</blockquote><p> Uh, what?  F you dude.  How is your LotD any different than mine?  Because you use yours only on raid mobs?  I probably get more use out of this spell than you do, probably more pvp use with it buffing proc rates than you get in a week raiding mobs.  And then my raids as well.  Chances are, the only thing that we will notice differently will be with Percussion.  And that's only because Blessings is getting nerfed as well.  Who really gives a rat's [I cannot control my vocabulary] if your BCG procs 1% less.  </p><p>If your group watches proc numbers so closely that you notice a 1% change, you are watching things waaaay too closely. </p>

[Draggoz]

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think the bards are somewhat over powered for raiding. Their need is over represented at this time in the ideal raid formation. There are only two bard classes and yet guilds will often bring four bards to a raid and sometimes up to three dirges. There will always be a need for dirges in the main tank group. The overuse of dirges in the other group set ups needs to be nerfed. </blockquote>You are a disgrace to the Bard class.  As for being overpowered for raiding, that is doubtful.  It comes down to this bards are the only class in game that is specifically designed to be a raiding class and if we didn't have some nice abilities to bring to the raid nobody would want them.  In response to the many uses of Dirges in the raid, [Removed for Content], are you [Removed for Content] because you heard about how Troubs used to be the MT bard of choice and now all you know is being a mage group bard. For you PvP peeps.  I never stated that this wasn't a nerf for your servers even though you only make up 16% of the dirge population and i'm guessing only 20% of that even have LotD. The point of this thread was why the reduction.  LotD can never claim to be responsible for upping the parses of any class by insane numbers, therefore they didn't need to touch it because no matter what they do to the PvP line 84% of the dirge population would never use it. Off Topic just for the hell of it:  For you PvP players how about us PvE dirges call for a nerf to every piece of City Armor that you get that pawns the living hell out of EoF set gear(assuming you aren't Exile), and all you have to do is spend a little plat/status to get it while we spend months trying to get set gear.

[Oakum]

Vydar@Vox wrote: <blockquote>Agreed... dirge's are great because of their buffs.  Why nerf the one thing they have going for them? I dual box my dirge in the melee dps group, and luck of the dirge is one of the best things going for it.  Bleh. </blockquote><p>Hmm, maybe that is one of the reasons they are doing it. Make people want to bring other people and not buff bot/boxed toons to raids. Maybe put a played brawler in now instead of a 2 boxed dirge and make people change resist gear around for aoe's? Who knows other then what they said about making DPS pay more attention to their aggro production. </p><p>Just an idea I had when I seen your post about dual boxing in raids.  You can flame me for it but you opened yourself up for that one. LoL. </p>

[Borias]

<p>You're partially right.  I am an exile, so I can't wear the pvp armor.  But you are right about it, I'd use 3 eof pieces and the rest pvp/other if I could.  We might be only 16% of the population, but we raid mobs just like you guys.  And no, that wasn't directed to you, just the ignorant guy saying our opinion doesn't matter.  PvE mobs are PvE mobs no matter what server you're on.  I'd disagree about the 20% here though, I think you underestimate the AA junkies on these servers.</p><p>I use degredate/luck and str/wis like a lot of other dirges.  This affects me same as a lot of others.  I wouldn't touch L&D or control if you asked me to.  I am very happy with the 2 eof trees I took.  </p><p>I think if it was just a luck nerf, things might not even be noticable on the big scale.  The problem is we get a little nerf, templars get a little nerf, etc etc.  Almost everyone is getting a little bit.  A lot of littles is a lot more noticable.  That is why we will notice a change when this goes live.</p>

[Draggoz]

Borias@Venekor wrote: <blockquote><p>I'd disagree about the 20% here though, I think you underestimate the AA junkies on these servers.</p></blockquote>I think I may be close to the mark.  I large portion of the PvP population likely doesn't raid.  A dirge level locked @ their respective tier can be extremely over powered and with the recent cap placed on AA on PvP I would find it hard to believe a dirge would throw the points into it when they could be placed in the Bard tree which for the low end PvP is far superior to the EoF lines.  But I do agree with you that 90% of 70 Dirges are spec'd LotD/Degrade for EoF and probly all 218(.0.48% of population) 65-70 Dirges on Vox/Vene/Naggy are spec'd that way as well.

[Borias]

<p>I guess it would depend more on what level the dirges are locked at.  Of course the level 14's won't use LotD, but any dirge that can use CoB will end up having LotD, because why wouldn't you just add that one point after upgrading CoB.</p><p>My point though is, I think it's a dumb change, you think it's a dumb change, all(well they all should) dirges think it's a dumb change.  But just because I'm on a red server, my opinion which agrees with yours, does not carry any less weight.  </p>

[Draggoz]

Borias@Venekor wrote: <blockquote><p>But just because I'm on a red server, my opinion which agrees with yours, does not carry any less weight. </p></blockquote>Agree. And for those of you that insist on turning bards into buff bots.  Make it your main and recruit what your class was.  An actual bard in the raid is 100 times more effective than the buff bots you try to justify using.  Also, you will see how much we actually do when you play the class.

[Dynaen]

<cite>Oakum wrote:</cite><blockquote>Make people want to bring other people and not buff bot/boxed toons to raids. Maybe put a played brawler in now instead of a 2 boxed dirge and make people change resist gear around for aoe's? </blockquote> Is this a joke?  What world are you living in that a 5% reduction to LOTD is going to make them less useful than a brawler in a group even two-boxed?  Brawlers need a lot more upgrading than that, and a 5% nerf in LOTD isn't going to make dirges more useless, which is exactly why this is so frickin stupid and pointless, just like the 3% Brigand Tenure nerf.  Neither is overpowered, it's just serving to enrage half the Brigand and Dirge population by putting in such childish, unwarrant nerfs.

[Oakum]

<cite>Dynaen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Oakum wrote:</cite><blockquote>Make people want to bring other people and not buff bot/boxed toons to raids. Maybe put a played brawler in now instead of a 2 boxed dirge and make people change resist gear around for aoe's? </blockquote> Is this a joke?  What world are you living in that a 5% reduction to LOTD is going to make them less useful than a brawler in a group even two-boxed?  Brawlers need a lot more upgrading than that, and a 5% nerf in LOTD isn't going to make dirges more useless, which is exactly why this is so frickin stupid and pointless, just like the 3% Brigand Tenure nerf.  Neither is overpowered, it's just serving to enrage half the Brigand and Dirge population by putting in such childish, unwarrant nerfs.</blockquote>It just struck me as funny that you were complaining about the nerfs on the one hand but saying that your raid uses boxed dirges meaning the class is not being played to its full possibility anyway unless your other class was the one not getting attention. No one can run two classes to their full potentional unless they use a program of sort IMO. At least not for the length of a raid. I guess you could say it was a joke. Of course unsubtle humor is not my strong point as my wife tells me constantly. LoL.

[Dynaen]

<cite>Oakum wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dynaen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Oakum wrote: Is this a joke?  What world are you living in that a 5% reduction to LOTD is going to make them less useful than a brawler in a group even two-boxed?  Brawlers need a lot more upgrading than that, and a 5% nerf in LOTD isn't going to make dirges more useless, which is exactly why this is so frickin stupid and pointless, just like the 3% Brigand Tenure nerf.  Neither is overpowered, it's just serving to enrage half the Brigand and Dirge population by putting in such childish, unwarrant nerfs.</blockquote>It just struck me as funny that you were complaining about the nerfs on the one hand but saying that your raid uses boxed dirges meaning the class is not being played to its full possibility anyway unless your other class was the one not getting attention. No one can run two classes to their full potentional unless they use a program of sort IMO. At least not for the length of a raid. I guess you could say it was a joke. Of course unsubtle humor is not my strong point as my wife tells me constantly. LoL. </blockquote> Err I never said my raid uses 2-boxed dirges.  ;p  I just said that even two-boxed a dirge is still gonna be more useful in a group that needs it over a brawler with either a haste/dps buff vs PoS, Screeching, Riana's, LOTD, and everything else.  Trust me, I'd love to have brawlers be more needed in raids.  I have a 70 Dirge, Bruiser, and Brigand (all on same account, I don't 2-box).  ;p  And out of those 3, you can probably guess which is the least desired.  I just think the nerf is pointless really, and its not making any class or aa line more desirable, just the same with the Tenure nerf.  It just has zero point that I can see other than to [Removed for Content] those classes off by chipping away at the %s of the buffs with no explanation.

[Vydar]

<cite>Oakum wrote:</cite><blockquote>Vydar@Vox wrote: <blockquote>Agreed... dirge's are great because of their buffs.  Why nerf the one thing they have going for them? I dual box my dirge in the melee dps group, and luck of the dirge is one of the best things going for it.  Bleh. </blockquote><p>Hmm, maybe that is one of the reasons they are doing it. Make people want to bring other people and not buff bot/boxed toons to raids. Maybe put a played brawler in now instead of a 2 boxed dirge and make people change resist gear around for aoe's? Who knows other then what they said about making DPS pay more attention to their aggro production. </p><p>Just an idea I had when I seen your post about dual boxing in raids.  You can flame me for it but you opened yourself up for that one. LoL. </p></blockquote> I'm sorry, but I've seen people who play dual boxed toons better than people who play them as their sole mains <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> And while I'd rather have an at the computer dirge, I'd rather have a boxed one than none at all or some other class that doesn't have the buffs that a dirge supplies.

[firza]

<cite>Draggoz wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think the bards are somewhat over powered for raiding. Their need is over represented at this time in the ideal raid formation. There are only two bard classes and yet guilds will often bring four bards to a raid and sometimes up to three dirges. There will always be a need for dirges in the main tank group. The overuse of dirges in the other group set ups needs to be nerfed. </blockquote>You are a disgrace to the Bard class.  As for being overpowered for raiding, that is doubtful.  It comes down to this bards are the only class in game that is specifically designed to be a raiding class and if we didn't have some nice abilities to bring to the raid nobody would want them.  In response to the many uses of Dirges in the raid, [I cannot control my vocabulary], are you [Removed for Content] because you heard about how Troubs used to be the MT bard of choice and now all you know is being a mage group bard. </blockquote><p> Lol, why is he a disgrace for pointing out something thats holds merit, and is worth discussing. Seems you are to afraid for your spot in the raid force to listen to well presented fatcs?</p><p>Anyways, eventhough this little nerf holds no true purpose since no one will change their eof end lines because of it, its not a really that big a nerf nerf to be really [Removed for Content] off because of it.</p><p>The bigger question is; when will we be brought in line with the other classes as was promised to us soooo long ago. </p>

[Gareorn]

Paikis@Venekor wrote: <blockquote><cite>Draggoz wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why did LoTD % need to be reduced again?  How does anyone at SOE thing that a dirge with a 25% bonus to procs is overpowered is beyond me<b><u>(Don't bring up the effect is has on other players)</u></b>. </blockquote><p> Why not? Does it suddenly not work on the other 5 people in your group? This is like asking someone why you shouldn't drink battery acid and then telling them that the fact that you'll die in less than 3 seconds can't be included.</p><p>I love Game Update time, because the forums fill with whiny people complaining about every little nerf that is intended, and even some that aren't. I swear, half the people replying to these threads dont even read the changes, just moan about nerfs. Hell, there was a few posters in the Troub changes post that were complaining about perceived nerfs that had the word IMPROVED in their descriptions. If I was a Dev, I'd be sitting in my office killing myself with laughter at you all.</p><p>And to anyone who thinks their class is broken now, all I have to say is this: Toughen up princess!</p><p>***DISCLAIMER***</p><p>Yes, it is a nerf, but realistically, are you even going to notice the 1-3% extra proc chance you get from that extra 5%?</p></blockquote>Did your little rant about people expressisng their concerns make you feel better about yourself?  I hope so, otherwise it was a complete waste of time.  And in the future, you might not want to refer to people posting in forums as "whiny people."  It makes you look silly since you can't actually hear whether their whining...  or moaning for that matter.

[Uilamin]

anywyas the people [Removed for Content] about this nerf, well the spell itself isn't overpowered, but the fact that the warlock, dirge, and templar proc bonuses all stack (including I believe affecting each other) that made the spell overpowered. Just look at the the stone skin chance on someone with m1 vigilant benediction, m1 percussion of stone, and with a proc spec'd dirge, templar, and warlock in group.

[Kaleyen]

Whoa whoa whoa...when did Dirges become overpowered that ANY of their abilities warrant a nerf?  They're like Paladins in that regard but actually useful on a Raid. I'm not a Dirge and I think this is messed up change.

[Roriondesexiest]

<p>It's normal SOE...</p><p>Hmm we can't figure out how to make the other AA lines useful so lets nerf the  useful ones to the point where they are as lame as the rest so no one cares which AA line they use.</p><p>Heaven forbid they get a bit creative and figure out new AA lines that make you a better soloer, grouper, raider, etc...  </p>

[Dynaen]

Rorion@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote><p>It's normal SOE...</p><p>Hmm we can't figure out how to make the other AA lines useful so lets nerf the  useful ones to the point where they are as lame as the rest so no one cares which AA line they use.</p><p>Heaven forbid they get a bit creative and figure out new AA lines that make you a better soloer, grouper, raider, etc...  </p></blockquote> I think you just summed it up perfectly.

[firza]

Rorion@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote><p>It's normal SOE...</p><p>Hmm we can't figure out how to make the other AA lines useful so lets nerf the  useful ones to the point where they are as lame as the rest so no one cares which AA line they use.</p><p>Heaven forbid they get a bit creative and figure out new AA lines that make you a better soloer, grouper, raider, etc...  </p></blockquote><p>I am normally not the first to defend choices made by SOE, nor do I think the drop from 25 % to 20 % is needed. Most of the time I also agree that SOE should be more inventive in finding spells/abilities for bards.</p><p>But now they actually tried to be more creative and you burn them down? They increased a lot of aa's. (eventhough some remain useless). They increased/improved almost all end line abilities. They added interactive end lines....I was totally amazed at this.</p><p>And now we get bards burning SOE for trying? why...because some figure loving dev decided 25 % was to much? For whatever reason?</p><p>This is exactly the reason why the multi page threat of bards asking for changes should be totally ignored by the devs. Nothing but wining and complaining, no positive input whatsoever. The only thing you read is ...dps...dpos...i want more dps....zomg, another huge nerf....arghh....i want more not less.</p><p>Stop whining, you guys make me puke.</p><p>Here is my input to the devs:</p><p>If the 5 % reduction of LoTD is meant to make me change to another end line it won't. It might work for soloers, but in any raiding/grouping environment lotd will be the choice of 100 % of the dirges.</p><p> If you want more diversity in end line abilities you will have to compete with the degradate line. This line can be dropped by bard if 2 or more of the same class are on the raid. Stop increasing the improvements of casting times or effects of useless spells. They remain useless. </p><p>The increases to the life and death are interesting, and might make some dirges go down that line. In order for them to actually choose the end line abilitie make it even more effective then now. like a 100% HP/power with a casting speed buff for buff spells.</p><p>KOS:</p><p>Thank you for increasing the HO end line and making some actually work. Every dirge WW will have DKTM. no matter what you do. itys a fact, let it be like this.</p><p>All others now have more choices, some are fun, and some look like fun but still need a bit of an increase. The HO abilitieis nice like it is. Especially for soloers. The Lend Shield end line abilitie needs a small boost. increasing blocking chance on 1 hit is not going to be enough to make me keep it. The DA changes are fun and very nice. thanks for them. </p><p>The Magnetic note I will let others test. My bet is that it needs a 100 % succes and even better improved recasting timers. Please, please, please, reduce the recast on bladedance.</p><p>Anyways, thanks for giving us more and more interactive possibilities and taking us bit by bit away from being a buff bot.</p>

[MadLordOfMilk]

To anyone thinking "zomg my dirge is t3h sux, stop n3rfing him!!!!!!!!!!!1`1`1!~!!": Parse a named without dirges/troubs, and see just how "little" dps you bring. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Also, yes, a 5% nerf is noticeable, but the ability was insane already, don't act like it didn't need it, esp. considering you have <i>massive</i> amounts of Mage dps coming from procs. It's like you guys are arguing that Lifeburn wasn't overpowered and didn't need the nerf it got (20% less damage now, but tbh it's still an insane ability).

[Supp]

Zebedee@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote>This is a pointless nerf simply because Dirges (Actually, bards in general) DON"T need nerfing. I mean really, when was the last time you saw a Dirge waving around [Removed for Content] trying to impress everyone in 60-69 chat with their parse? Or when was the last time you saw a Dirge parked AFK in Qeynos Harbor just so everyone can walk by and "ooooh and aaahhh" at all their shiny fabled plate? (Yes, there are raid tanks who do this.) As it is, the only thing that guarantees a bard a spot in a raid is Blade Dance (SOE, this is your fault for being so AoE happy...if you want to see more AA lines used for bards, tone down the AoE'S!) It's not like a raid force is over powered because of it's Über Dirges! As I said in another post, it's just a kick in the balls from SOE...Not fatal, but painful and humiliating all the same. </blockquote><p>Well said Zebster. Bladedance is a bard requirement where Im from. And Tortoise shell is highly highly recommended for all druids. The tortoise line is complete garbage. Basically a waste of the 22 points needed to get to shell. That's a painful allocation.</p><p>But yeah, if youre a raiding bard, you better have bladedance. It's not optional. Good or bad, waste or fruitfullness, youre taking it, straight up. No twist.</p>

[Dynaen]

<cite>firza wrote:</cite><blockquote>Rorion@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote><p>It's normal SOE...</p><p>Hmm we can't figure out how to make the other AA lines useful so lets nerf the  useful ones to the point where they are as lame as the rest so no one cares which AA line they use.</p><p>Heaven forbid they get a bit creative and figure out new AA lines that make you a better soloer, grouper, raider, etc...  </p></blockquote><p>But now they actually tried to be more creative and you burn them down? They increased a lot of aa's. (eventhough some remain useless). They increased/improved almost all end line abilities. They added interactive end lines....I was totally amazed at this.</p><p>And now we get bards burning SOE for trying? why...because some figure loving dev decided 25 % was to much? For whatever reason?</p></blockquote> I don't think he/everyone is mad that they're getting creative, me I'm all for it.  But they're not really getting creative, they're just making the popular AA lines worse in a lame attempt to make the unpopular AA lines look more attractive.  It happens every single time an AA line becomes popular, "Omg a lot of people are taking that AA line, it must be overpowered!"  /Nerf bat inc!  And it's not going to make people change AA lines, it'll just aggravate people who see the figures dropping for no reason.

[firza]

<p>They did that now, after making less popular aa lines much better. So that is why this time I am not in line with whining.</p><p>As said, I don't think it needed nerfing. Especially because its the wrong way to convince us to change lines. (we do agree about that).</p>

[Vydar]

<cite>Supple wrote:</cite><blockquote>Zebedee@Antonia Bayle wrote: <blockquote>This is a pointless nerf simply because Dirges (Actually, bards in general) DON"T need nerfing. I mean really, when was the last time you saw a Dirge waving around [Removed for Content] trying to impress everyone in 60-69 chat with their parse? Or when was the last time you saw a Dirge parked AFK in Qeynos Harbor just so everyone can walk by and "ooooh and aaahhh" at all their shiny fabled plate? (Yes, there are raid tanks who do this.) As it is, the only thing that guarantees a bard a spot in a raid is Blade Dance (SOE, this is your fault for being so AoE happy...if you want to see more AA lines used for bards, tone down the AoE'S!) It's not like a raid force is over powered because of it's Über Dirges! As I said in another post, it's just a kick in the balls from SOE...Not fatal, but painful and humiliating all the same. </blockquote><p>Well said Zebster. Bladedance is a bard requirement where Im from. And Tortoise shell is highly highly recommended for all druids. The tortoise line is complete garbage. Basically a waste of the 22 points needed to get to shell. That's a painful allocation.</p><p>But yeah, if youre a raiding bard, you better have bladedance. It's not optional. Good or bad, waste or fruitfullness, youre taking it, straight up. No twist.</p></blockquote> Yeap, I play my assassin and my dirge on raids (dual boxing) and if I ever respec away from bladedance, raid leader will have a sh** fit.  Every good raid should have a bard in each group with bladedance.

[stryker268]

<p>  It's sad to say, but I believe (and this is only my opinion) that the nerf to LotD isn't so much aimed at the dirge itself but at the high-end dps scout classes tht rely on it so much.  SOE seems to be doing many things to leash in the amount of damage put out by high dps classes.  For example there is a huge discussion on the upcoming nerfs to hate transfer and how the scouts are going to have a harder time controlling aggro.  Also, take note that the Templar spell that increases proc percentage is also getting the same exact % nerf.</p><p>   As a bard you aren't doing top end dps, nor should you be.  You have way too much utility to justify that.  But, being a ranger, I would consider a dirge to be the one class that I cannot do without on a raid.  Whenever I run my ACT during a raid there is one fact that is so glaring that it can't be ignored.  Of the 10 top contributions to my DPS, 8 of them are procs.  The following 4 types of damage account for albout  60% of my damage and are as follows:</p><p>  1) Auto-Attack - Makes up from 40-47% of my total damage depending on if I get my rythme down between my CAs. While this is not directly effected, it is influenced by my 10% double attack from my AA line.</p><p> 2) Caustic Poison - This is directly effected by any proc % increasers and typically makes up around 10% of my total dps.</p><p> 3) Quick Shot- This is the proc off of the ranger offensive stance and makes up about 6% of my total dps.</p><p> 4) Power of Marr - this is the proc of of the Qeynos Kilij and makes up 4-5% of my total dps.</p><p>  Add to those 4 damage types the procs on my bow, my cloak, my melee weapon and any group member damage procs and you can see how much damage procs actually do for my class.</p><p>  As you can see, a dirge is invaluable to a ranger.  I imagine the numbers would be high for Assassins/Swashes/Brigands also, but I can't show any information to back that up.  Without the dirge my parses would typically be 500-600 dps lower than with them.  Add to that the increased threat reduction from deaggro poisons and gear procs and you can see why I believe a dirge to be invaluable.  </p><p>  SOE has to know this and, as I said, this is why I believe the changes aren't aimed so much at the self benefits a dirge gets, either in pvp or soloing.  It's my opinion that it is directed at the classes I have mentioned.  Maybe also at the caster groups, I don't know.  Don't they usually have a troub instead?  I have no experience with casters so I can't speak for them.</p><p>   In the end, it is my beleif that they are tearing classes down (again) to build them back up in RoK.  It happened pre-EoF.  And with the lvl cap going up and expanded AA trees (only hearsay right now so don't blast me for this comment) the tear down is going to be even worse then last time.  They could have waited to implement things till further down the road though.  RoK is at least 3 months away.</p><p>   I share your pain on this nerf.  I don't think it was needed.  It is definently not wanted by most.  I believe that Sony should build classes up if they are concerned with balance and not tear down others.</p>

[Dasein]

<cite>stryker268 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>  It's sad to say, but I believe (and this is only my opinion) that the nerf to LotD isn't so much aimed at the dirge itself but at the high-end dps scout classes tht rely on it so much.  SOE seems to be doing many things to leash in the amount of damage put out by high dps classes.  For example there is a huge discussion on the upcoming nerfs to hate transfer and how the scouts are going to have a harder time controlling aggro.  Also, take note that the Templar spell that increases proc percentage is also getting the same exact % nerf.</p><p>   As a bard you aren't doing top end dps, nor should you be.  You have way too much utility to justify that.  But, being a ranger, I would consider a dirge to be the one class that I cannot do without on a raid.  Whenever I run my ACT during a raid there is one fact that is so glaring that it can't be ignored.  Of the 10 top contributions to my DPS, 8 of them are procs.  The following 4 types of damage account for albout  60% of my damage and are as follows:</p><p>  1) Auto-Attack - Makes up from 40-47% of my total damage depending on if I get my rythme down between my CAs. While this is not directly effected, it is influenced by my 10% double attack from my AA line.</p><p> 2) Caustic Poison - This is directly effected by any proc % increasers and typically makes up around 10% of my total dps.</p><p> 3) Quick Shot- This is the proc off of the ranger offensive stance and makes up about 6% of my total dps.</p><p> 4) Power of Marr - this is the proc of of the Qeynos Kilij and makes up 4-5% of my total dps.</p><p>  Add to those 4 damage types the procs on my bow, my cloak, my melee weapon and any group member damage procs and you can see how much damage procs actually do for my class.</p><p>  As you can see, a dirge is invaluable to a ranger.  I imagine the numbers would be high for Assassins/Swashes/Brigands also, but I can't show any information to back that up.  Without the dirge my parses would typically be 500-600 dps lower than with them.  Add to that the increased threat reduction from deaggro poisons and gear procs and you can see why I believe a dirge to be invaluable.  </p><p>  SOE has to know this and, as I said, this is why I believe the changes aren't aimed so much at the self benefits a dirge gets, either in pvp or soloing.  It's my opinion that it is directed at the classes I have mentioned.  Maybe also at the caster groups, I don't know.  Don't they usually have a troub instead?  I have no experience with casters so I can't speak for them.</p><p>   In the end, it is my beleif that they are tearing classes down (again) to build them back up in RoK.  It happened pre-EoF.  And with the lvl cap going up and expanded AA trees (only hearsay right now so don't blast me for this comment) the tear down is going to be even worse then last time.  They could have waited to implement things till further down the road though.  RoK is at least 3 months away.</p><p>   I share your pain on this nerf.  I don't think it was needed.  It is definently not wanted by most.  I believe that Sony should build classes up if they are concerned with balance and not tear down others.</p></blockquote>Adjusting a few bonuses to proc rates hardly constitutes tearing down a class. If the bonus on LotD were 20% to start with, would people consider it underpowered? Further, people are forgetting that AAs were never intended to be class-defining, nor were any AA lines supposed to be required for the class to be viable. Personally, I am surprised that AAs like LotD and Bladedance made it in at all, given that they now seem to be required, thus defeating the purpose of AAs.