Paladins: useless? Hardly. The verdict is in:

[Galavant]

I felt that I needed to contribute my views on this debate. I have played a Paladin for almost a year now. I will admit, in t5 and t6 I was very frustrated with the class, especially because I had people telling me that I was a third rate tank behind Guardians and Berserkers (and sometimes even Shadowknights). For a short time I almost believed it, but I decided to go ahead and get to 70 and find out for myself. It took me awhile to realize that a majority of players, even those from raiding guilds, just don’t understand Paladins, and that’s why we have the stigma of being a useless class. Eventually I raided more, got good gear, more masters, and got a better grasp on what a Paladin is designed for and what spec is ideal for their role on raids. It is all actually quite simple to me now, so I will tell you how I see it. Paladins are defensively oriented. We are the second best pure tank (all other attributes aside) in EQ2. We have nearly as much HP as Guardians, and can pull even more aggro than them. Although we can MT, we are obviously designed for AOE off tanking. Our heals and ward allow us to give our healers breathing room in this role. There you have it: Guardians and Paladins, the two tanking classes of EQ2. The same line of thinking that deems Paladins as useless on raids should also exclude Guardians. Like Paladins, they bring nothing to the table but their tanking ability. Arguments: Q: Why not just use a Guardian off tank? A: Because we sacrifice DPS and defensive buffs for limited supportive abilities and healing. They do not, however, define us; tanking does. Q: A Berserker can off tank as well as a Paladin, and they contribute buffs / DPS. There is no need for a Paladin. A: The DPS of a raid will be higher with the buffs of a Berserker combined with their DPS than if there were a DPS class in place of the Berserker. Paladins are designed to be the AOE off tank, but what is in question is not what Warriors and Crusaders can do, the Paladin debate is along the lines of what we are apt to do. I hope this post makes sense and brings with it some insight.

[Krokous]

are you joking on this one?   "Our heals and ward allow us to hold our own in this role, whereas the MT Guardian is designed to require the full attention of healers." you trying to say that your (completely *** heals with LONG cast time, much power cost AND interrupted with amost every hit) heals help you when offtanking epic adds that hit you like with vulcan cannon?

[Galavant]

Not at all - being able to heal has saved my butt as well as the entire raid countless times. All tanks rely on healers without a doubt, but Paladins give a little more breathing room in the role they are designed for. A well timed 1k self heal can be the difference between going down and staying up long enough for a big heal to land.

[Anavron Ta]

Vulcan cannons? If we get those as a drop somewhere I want one.

[Shooterkelso]

<p>Well said, I agree.  The self heals also help a lot with the aggro too.  Ward on the pull, followed with a taunt, backed up by Amends, you own that mob for the duration.</p>

[RaistNA]

Verus wrote: <blockquote> Arguments: Q: Why not just have two Guardians then? A: Because, like many flamers don’t understand, we sacrifice DPS and raw tanking ability for limited supportive abilities; spot healing and self preservation (is there another class that can heal themselves for 7k in 2.5 seconds?). They do not define us like the buffs of Berserkers and Shadowknights; tanking does. <i><b>A: Because in an offtanking situations that really matters (avatars, cmayong, the likes) a good well specced paladin wills moke a guardians dps, and have twice as much agro.  Their heals are essentially useless in these situations as with so many incoming hits, when they are in need of the heals they would never get em off due to their high chance of being interrupted.</b></i> Q: A Berserker can off tank as well as a Paladin, and they contribute buffs. There is no need for a Paladin. A: The DPS of a raid will be higher with the buffs of a Berserker pushing hot DPS themselves than if there were a DPS class in place of the Berserker. The same is true of Shadowknights (Death March anyone?). Paladins are supposed to be the off tank, but it is not in question what Warriors and Crusaders can do, the Paladin debate is along the lines of what we are designed to do. <i><b>A: A proper specced paladin again can push up numbers greater then that of the average zerker on AE encounters.  There are a few examples of WW zerkers that can out dps a good paladin on an AE fight, but not very many.</b></i> I hope this post makes sense and brings with it some insight. <i><b>I hoped i helped you understand where u showed little knowledge of paladins.</b></i> </blockquote>

[Zergosch]

hi, i play paly since beta and they can be very usefull. as long as everything runs right at the raid, none will notice me (normaly). but if the mt and ot drops, i come to play. no i can´t heal full dmg from epic, but i can backup buffs and heals from others which make me stand longer so the other tanks can come up again. sometimes i cover dmg spikes from raidmobs with lay on hands, so the healer can keep the mt running. i like the paladin as supporter/rezzer/emergency tank (even tho, i dont want to mt anyhow ^^). btw. some DD´s do love Amends ^^ (furies too). which tank does the better job? hm... i dont bother, depends on gear, playstlye, knowlege and encounter. i keep my paly anhow + SoE didn´t nerf plays (recently). so long s.t., Zergosch

[Galavant]

Raistin@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote>Verus wrote: <blockquote> Arguments: Q: Why not just have two Guardians then? A: Because, like many flamers don’t understand, we sacrifice DPS and raw tanking ability for limited supportive abilities; spot healing and self preservation (is there another class that can heal themselves for 7k in 2.5 seconds?). They do not define us like the buffs of Berserkers and Shadowknights; tanking does. <i><b>A: Because in an offtanking situations that really matters (avatars, cmayong, the likes) a good well specced paladin wills moke a guardians dps, and have twice as much agro.  Their heals are essentially useless in these situations as with so many incoming hits, when they are in need of the heals they would never get em off due to their high chance of being interrupted.</b></i> Q: A Berserker can off tank as well as a Paladin, and they contribute buffs. There is no need for a Paladin. A: The DPS of a raid will be higher with the buffs of a Berserker pushing hot DPS themselves than if there were a DPS class in place of the Berserker. The same is true of Shadowknights (Death March anyone?). Paladins are supposed to be the off tank, but it is not in question what Warriors and Crusaders can do, the Paladin debate is along the lines of what we are designed to do. <i><b>A: A proper specced paladin again can push up numbers greater then that of the average zerker on AE encounters.  There are a few examples of WW zerkers that can out dps a good paladin on an AE fight, but not very many.</b></i> I hope this post makes sense and brings with it some insight. <i><b>I hoped i helped you understand where u showed little knowledge of paladins.</b></i> </blockquote> </blockquote>You just repeated my arguments. I clearly said in the OP "we are obviously designed for off tanking encounter adds" meaning an AE fights. Not sure if you have trouble reading, but the questions I posed were not from me, they were what I think people's primary response to my post would be and I was addressing them without waiting for replies. Again, all you did support my arguments.

[RaistNA]

i supported some, corrected ur mistakes where you made them.  Like your comments of the heals being useful while MTing?  Outside of LoH and our ward, most pallys wont touch their other 3 heals while MTing [Removed for Content] like avatar or Cmayong adds...you wouldnt ever have the time to get those spells off.  And you're comment about zerker dps V paladins..was clearly wrong, so i corrected that.

[Tharinor Degaulle]

<p>I'm in agreeance for the most part.  I've been playing my Paladin since November 16, 2004, and have been through good times and bad, and will say with 100% confidence that right now and for the past 6 months to a year or so, I've been happy with my Paladins ability to MT epic encounters, and OT them.  I'm even more pleased since the last LU and the changes it made to our AA lines.</p><p>There's always going to be the occassion where one tank class will do better than the other, but it also depends greatly on the individual and how they have spec'd their particular character, how they play them, and how they are geared.</p><p>Personally, however, I see no reason why my Paladin can't MT the vast majority of epic encounters.  Honestly, I would consider the same to be true of Bezerkers and Guardians, if not SKs as well.  Ultimately, it's about the gear, how the person plays their class, and having the right people in the MT group and the raid.</p><p>IMO we're a very versatile class, and ultimately, if a particular Paladin can't MT most raid mobs, then they either 1), don't have the gear, 2), aren't very good at their class, 3) don't have the right MT group or raid set up, 4) aren't spec'd right, or 5) some combination of the above.</p><p>Personally, all the "we suck and can't MT" whining is not only old, but usually baseless.  Complaining about Divine Aura not taking into account mitigation is one thing, and worth bringing up.  Complaining about your heals and claiming you can't cast them as a MT because all they do is get interrupted just means you're incompetent, because other Raid MT Paladins don't have the same problem.  If you're dependent so much on your own heals and wards, then you better spec yourself correctly to be able to use them, and bring the right group/gear for it.</p>

[Tharinor Degaulle]

Raistin@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote>i supported some, corrected ur mistakes where you made them.  Like your comments of the heals being useful while MTing?  Outside of LoH and our ward, most pallys wont touch their other 3 heals while MTing [I cannot control my vocabulary] like avatar or Cmayong adds...you wouldnt ever have the time to get those spells off.  And you're comment about zerker dps V paladins..was clearly wrong, so i corrected that. </blockquote> Agreed.  I went down the healing line and should I ever need to use my other heals, I can use them with relative ease without being interrupted, but in most cases, I rarely use any of them except Celestial Touch and Devotion.  However, when playing the Off Tank role, that's a different story.  In the OT role I use my heals more often across the board, especially Fervent Aid.

[RaistNA]

Tharinor@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote>Raistin@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote>i supported some, corrected ur mistakes where you made them.  Like your comments of the heals being useful while MTing?  Outside of LoH and our ward, most pallys wont touch their other 3 heals while MTing [I cannot control my vocabulary] like avatar or Cmayong adds...you wouldnt ever have the time to get those spells off.  And you're comment about zerker dps V paladins..was clearly wrong, so i corrected that. </blockquote> Agreed.  I went down the healing line and should I ever need to use my other heals, I can use them with relative ease without being interrupted, but in most cases, I rarely use any of them except Celestial Touch and Devotion.  However, when playing the Off Tank role, that's a different story.  In the OT role I use my heals more often across the board, especially Fervent Aid.</blockquote>Why?  its a waste of power and has very little utility.  The heal..atho decent in size, completely [Removed for Content] your power.  You're goal as an offtank isnt to keep other people in raid alive, its to generate just enough agro to stay under the MT, but above the rest of the raid.  With the way hate works (1 damage = 1 hate, but 1 heal =/= 1 hate) Its more effecient to put that power towards damage, which will ultimately increase you're overall hate gain.  Plus when the mob does switch to you, and you DO need to tank it, at least you're AA's and power will be spent in damage, where once ur tanking chances are you wont be able to get any heals off.  Even devotion.

[Galavant]

Raistin@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote>i supported some, corrected ur mistakes where you made them.  Like your comments of the heals being useful while MTing?  Outside of LoH and our ward, most pallys wont touch their other 3 heals while MTing [I cannot control my vocabulary] like avatar or Cmayong adds...you wouldnt ever have the time to get those spells off.  And you're comment about zerker dps V paladins..was clearly wrong, so i corrected that. </blockquote>I never said I used heals when MTing - are you sure you can read okay? And I never made any comment about zerker DPS vs. Pallys, except that Paladins are designed for AE fights and a decent zerker will out-parse a Paladin zone wide, every zone, every time (unless the Pally isn't tanking).

[Tharinor Degaulle]

Raistin@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote>Tharinor@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote>Raistin@Crushbone wrote: <blockquote>i supported some, corrected ur mistakes where you made them.  Like your comments of the heals being useful while MTing?  Outside of LoH and our ward, most pallys wont touch their other 3 heals while MTing [I cannot control my vocabulary] like avatar or Cmayong adds...you wouldnt ever have the time to get those spells off.  And you're comment about zerker dps V paladins..was clearly wrong, so i corrected that. </blockquote> Agreed.  I went down the healing line and should I ever need to use my other heals, I can use them with relative ease without being interrupted, but in most cases, I rarely use any of them except Celestial Touch and Devotion.  However, when playing the Off Tank role, that's a different story.  In the OT role I use my heals more often across the board, especially Fervent Aid.</blockquote>Why?  its a waste of power and has very little utility.  The heal..atho decent in size, completely [Removed for Content] your power.  You're goal as an offtank isnt to keep other people in raid alive, its to generate just enough agro to stay under the MT, but above the rest of the raid.  With the way hate works (1 damage = 1 hate, but 1 heal =/= 1 hate) Its more effecient to put that power towards damage, which will ultimately increase you're overall hate gain.  Plus when the mob does switch to you, and you DO need to tank it, at least you're AA's and power will be spent in damage, where once ur tanking chances are you wont be able to get any heals off.  Even devotion. </blockquote><p>Because if I'm DPSing them I'm constantly stealling aggro from the MT, whether amended or not.  Going down the healing line allows me to be useful without being a detriment to the raid, while retaining the ability to stay near the top of the list and pick up aggro when needed as the OT.</p><p>If you're DPSing as a Paladin, chances are you're going to steal a lot of hate whenever you want AS WELL AS when you DO NOT want, especially if you're amending someone.</p><p>Again, if you think you can't cast heals or wards while MTing, then your character has the wrong gear and is improperly set up.  I have very little problem casting these.  When they are interrupted, it is rare and usually only once.  It takes 10-20 multiple heroics attacking me at once to send me into loops of recasts from interrupts, and even then the spells usually succeed in casting after 1 or 2 interrupts if that.</p><p>As for power consumption, you're spot healing both as MT and as OT, plus you get reduced power consumption when going down the healing line.  As for the efficiency argument, efficient is not equivalent to better MT/OT.</p><p>Basically, I'm putting 5 points into fervent aid, 3 into prayer of consecration, 5 into devotion (for better spamming which is VERY useful for both support and MT), 5 into reverant sacrament, 5 into touch, 1 into the arch heal, and 5 into group armament (+700 mitigation vs all physical damage for non-fighters in your group, very nice in the MT group).</p><p>It's always going to be a trade off, but IMO, as MT the healing line is a much better option unless you can't hold aggro when choosing this line.  It's a non-issue for me so the healing line is the route I took.</p>

[Tames]

<p>Hmm how do you avoid getting interupted when being hit by 6 mobs?</p><p>Hammer Ground (if its up) will let you get off a Ward, and Hammer Ground is now on a shared timer with other AA abilities so having it up when you need to heal a problem. Normally I am spamming my Haste AA.</p><p><b>Giving a class designed to tank, slow cast heals, is a basic design flaw.</b></p><p>Heals and especially group heals can help a lot with agro even though they are half as good as DPS, using them in a group when you get adds, can pull mobs onto you if you are fast enough but arent so useful if you are fighting  multiple yellow mobs that will interrupt you often.</p><p>Our heals arent mana efficient compared to Healer classes, so we should at least get fast ones that you can cast while tanking.</p><p>Paladins make very good group tanks although the Tank role, in almost all instanced zones, can be taken by Scouts nowadays. If you have a poorly balanced or undersized group then a Paladin is a fantastic choice because you can fill most of the gaps. The same goes for poorly balanced raids, but if your raid has all the classes nicely present then your utility doesnt count for as much and since EoF requires high DPS from all mellees you will be replaced by a Zerker most likely, Palladins can DPS but Zerkers can do it better unless you have better gear.</p><p>Amends/Sigil can help overcome many drawbacks however as not only can it help a DPS class really let go, it helps you keep agro if thats your role. In my Guild, Bards have taken this role in DPS groups because they can allow a whole group to have high DPS and not get agro whereas a Pally can only help one DPS'er.</p><p>Our Rez becomes more useful in groups also because you can actually find the bodies quickly as opposed to running around looking for them in a raid, and standing on them to Rez, where the location arrow is useless if your settings are turned down (assuming the body isnt up a wall or somewhere else you cant stand). Rez should be the same distance as Bards at least.</p><p>There are Paladins MT'ing some high level raiding Guilds on some servers, and good luck to them, it has been my experience that in a well balanced raid Paladins arent even considered over Zerkers, on my server I havent seen a high level raiding Guild advertise for a Pally, <i>ever</i>.</p><p>BTW I saw it said on another thread by a high level raiding Pally that at high level raiding the job of a Pally is DPS and holding agro, that it, thats all, no healing or rezzing. This seems pretty correct to me, apart from LOH heals are too slow. At the high end of DPS, amends will get you agro off the MT if you are in a support role, which is undesirable, I am not uber equipped and if this becomes a problem I just switch to Defensive. </p><p>PS my Pally doesnt higher end raid because my Swashy is asked for, never my Pal, hence he is KoS and instance equipped.</p>

[khufure]

These threads are starting to get old.  If paladins didn't have issues these threads wouldn't crop up over and over again.

[Boethius_Permafrost]

In my experience, epic and raid mobs don't interrupt as much.  They just hit harder.  But the best ways to avoid interrupts are avoidance, focus, and reduced casting time.  Interrupts are more of an issue for me in single group instances when I'm pulling away, in which case ae stuns would come into play. I understand a few terms differently than some posters in this thread.  When the MT is tanking something, the OT will be simultaneously tanking something else off to the side.  That's why it's "off tanking."  If you are just staying high on threat to take over tanking, then you are the backup (or #2) tank. As for heals being a waste of time and power, you're completely off base.  Pious aid and devotion may not have huge numbers, but are efficient and effective.  Even if they weren't, any heal that doesn't "overheal" is a major contribution.  If you want to look at huge wastes of power, try dying. As far as achievements go, I wouldn't want to do much tanking without the hero line, but I still managed to put quite a few points in healing, group mitigation and group-taunt enhancement.  I know that wrath is better for damage and group agro, and you can heal reasonably well without achievements (but even hero/wrath will put leftover points in the healing tree).  But I often have to fill in as a healer or tank, so I don't worry about my dps.  I have tried arch heal, and found it ineffective due to fervent aid being faster, more efficient, and faster to recast.  The ward remains my main heal, and a secondary-main heal just doesn't work.  I also tried full support line for a while, too, but I just couldn't train myself to use the cure -- that's my fault, I know. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Rocksthemic]

I fully support all paladins who are happy and love thier class. And to those of you going "Oh, you can't heal while MT" learn to read.... he said OFFTANK. As an offtank, I will agree. Paladins are right on par, if not perhaps slightly superiour, to berserkers. Paladins have more hitpoints, with the hero line and adornments we can get avoidance numbers that are only slightly less than berserkers... AND we can keep aggro better. You have that mob that stifles and stuns? Like prince thirneg in the first floor of EH? Zerker will lose aggro offtanking, paladins don't. That is just one of the many cases where we can shine. There are top end paladins that are happy with thier class and what they can bring to the table. I do not proclaim to be tops WW by any means, but I sure as hell know my class. For an offtank, paladins are some of the best around. As a raid leader, I would probably tank a gaurdian, a paladin, and a bruiser to every raid as the 3 fighters (I like raids with less fighters, means  more dps hehe) That tanking force could rock just about anything.

[nyia]

I have played a pally for 3 years and i have seen alot in this time. I also am a believer in the fact that the player makes the class. I have seen many pallys who do not know how to play the the class, but in short i have seen many others who could not play there class as well. The truth is a pally is a hard class to get to know because we have alot of additional stuff to look at and alot of peeps don't grasp that consept. We can very much Mt as well as feel a support role but if the player is not geared or experienced at doing so they will not cut the mustered. One of our greatest tools is amends and alot of people don't grasp how to use it point in case a pally i ran into who kept his amends on me when i was playing a healing alt this is a no go most pallys know it but its just an example of not knowing the class and that holds true to all classes. In the end when i encounter these pally hate fools i just kick back and proof them wrong by doing what we do best kicking butt and taking names.

[Rast]

<p>I've started MTing some low end KoS raids and I intend on continuing up.  I'm not geared 'great' by any stretch of the imagination, but I hold my own with what I have.</p><p>Could I tank EoF stuff right now?  Hell no, but that is more because of my gear than my ability as a paladin tank.  My only gripe on the class is the fact it is excluded by alot of people as a lesser class.</p><p>One of these days, I'll prove them wrong or die trying <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Kaleyen]

Timmey@Unrest wrote: <blockquote>These threads are starting to get old.  If paladins didn't have issues these threads wouldn't crop up over and over again. </blockquote>Lol exactly. Oh well, I'll just sit back and watch this thread unfold. Carry on~

[Demoley]

Timmey@Unrest wrote: <blockquote>These threads are starting to get old.  If paladins didn't have issues these threads wouldn't crop up over and over again. </blockquote> the only issue paladins have is the fact that most people dont know how to play the class giving us all a bad name.....if people would learn it the problem would be solved

[Kaleyen]

<cite>Demoley wrote:</cite><blockquote>Timmey@Unrest wrote: <blockquote>These threads are starting to get old.  If paladins didn't have issues these threads wouldn't crop up over and over again. </blockquote> the only issue paladins have is the fact that most people dont know how to play the class giving us all a bad name.....if people would learn it the problem would be solved </blockquote>Very true, a lot of <insert slam here> giving Paladins a really bad rep.  I know that when I joined DoM there were Paladin jokes and what not flying out everywhere. So how did I change this?  When our MT wasn't able to raid the SK and I stepped up and tanked every zone that the Guard did.  When we were short on healers I went into Healadin mode and was keeping up on the heal parse with the priests.  And when we had a complete raid force I was able to turn out 850+ zone wide DPS (Keep in mind that DPS Pallys can get higher but I'm spec'd for tanking/healing as that was the majority of my role). And for you skeptics out there I'm not just talking about Labs and LoA, tanked FTH named and MMIS and have healed in zones like EH and was the sole warder in places like DT/Clockwork right when EoF came out. **Edit** But them SKs, they're completely useless, lookin all stupid standin over there in their hats.

[khufure]

<cite>Demoley wrote:</cite><blockquote>Timmey@Unrest wrote: <blockquote>These threads are starting to get old.  If paladins didn't have issues these threads wouldn't crop up over and over again. </blockquote> the only issue paladins have is the fact that most people dont know how to play the class giving us all a bad name.....if people would learn it the problem would be solved </blockquote>I'm an ok paladin, I've said in the past mine's an alt.  (I'm a much better assassin!).  I do some OT stuff when we need an extra tank, and even my alt does well in low-quality KOS fabled.  Amends pwns most other aggro measures, as long as your amends doesn't suck. However, as a MT I think is when people complain.  I wish we had more tools.  Warrior 12 second parry pwns divine aura in the face, assuming you are even specd to DA.  Our ancients suck. Serious question : what is there to learn?  I have 99% masters, low-quality KOS fabled.  For weapon I am using the crushing weapon from HoS with power adornment.  Any top tips I can try?  I spam all my blue/green AEs, pretty much never cast sigil cause it seems to bug my amends.  I selectively cast my non-spell CAs. Example situation:  I am OT an adds epic named.  If X person has aggro, I'll joust in, group taunt, intercede, shield bash, single taunt, then cast a few other CAs. Another example situation : a named just memwiped.  How do you best build aggro quickly?  I'll typically use a combination similar to above.

[Rast]

<p>hmmm, I've not noticed sigil bugging out lately.</p><p>But normally, if the MT falls, I'm not normally to far down the agro list that a couple of quick taunts, hitting sigil and praying that the healer picks things up quickly <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  If needed, you can throw a rescue in there, but I've never NOT been able to get agro pretty quick, my problem is surviving it without the MT buffs...</p>

[OrcSlayer96]

Timmey@Unrest wrote: <blockquote><cite>Demoley wrote:</cite><blockquote>Timmey@Unrest wrote: <blockquote>These threads are starting to get old.  If paladins didn't have issues these threads wouldn't crop up over and over again. </blockquote> the only issue paladins have is the fact that most people dont know how to play the class giving us all a bad name.....if people would learn it the problem would be solved </blockquote>I'm an ok paladin, I've said in the past mine's an alt.  (I'm a much better assassin!).  I do some OT stuff when we need an extra tank, and even my alt does well in low-quality KOS fabled.  Amends pwns most other aggro measures, as long as your amends doesn't suck. However, as a MT I think is when people complain.  I wish we had more tools.  Warrior 12 second parry pwns divine aura in the face, assuming you are even specd to DA.  Our ancients suck. Serious question : what is there to learn?  I have 99% masters, low-quality KOS fabled.  For weapon I am using the crushing weapon from HoS with power adornment.  Any top tips I can try?  I spam all my blue/green AEs, pretty much never cast sigil cause it seems to bug my amends.  I selectively cast my non-spell CAs. Example situation:  I am OT an adds epic named.  If X person has aggro, I'll joust in, group taunt, intercede, shield bash, single taunt, then cast a few other CAs. Another example situation : a named just memwiped.  How do you best build aggro quickly?  I'll typically use a combination similar to above. </blockquote><p>Overall, I am pretty good with how our class is at the moment(GU 36 helped out quite abit).  With my current AA spec of AGI 4-4-8-7-2 STA 4-4-8-6-2, Hero 21 Wrath 21 Support 8, I am enjoying what my paladin can do even more.  Sure, it would be nice to have more parry, but with the +defense in the agility line/and small agi on stats i have couple percent better avoidance than before.  The divine aura is fixed and with 10 min timer i am firing this off alot to save healers on spike damage.   Any paladins that have not tried Joust(3rd rank in AGI), i urge you to test out.  The 15 meter teleport/damage has been very useful on auto turning mobs, ignore roots/snares, and recover from knockbacks/fears.  Joust ability alone has given plenty of smiles on what i can do.  Hammer ground is a useful aoe stun(non epics), that has come in handy especially on yellow or higher mobs when you need to buy yourself a few seconds.  The power of AOE agility line is only realized if you max out melee crits/ use a high damage spread high delay weapon.  The key to staying alive in EOF and lesser mobs is to raise your avoidance up via gear/adornments while still keeping a healthy amount of max health/mitigation. </p><p>The better tanking weapons for me are the 1 handed slash variety so i can apply the 2% reposte adornment(have it on the annelaed defender) and will apply to the gladius/soulfire when i finish swords of destiny.   Our agro ability is mainly dependant on the quality of player we have amends on, especially when the mobs start conning white and higher.  A AFK amends target is the worst thing for you and sometimes the highest dps labeled player is not the best(seen some brigands blow the door off a ranger in the same group).  I used Sigil of Heroism last night every time it was up in Mistmore Castle(no mezzer in group), and never had bugged amends from it.  Maybe some others are seeing things different, but Amends/Sigil appears to be stable to me again.</p>

[Rast]

I think I've heard of some people saying that if you have sigil and someone in your group has a hate transfer on you (not a hate increaser) it will sometimes bug out.  I've not had it happen, but I don't group with alot of people who have hate transfers when I do not have them as my amends target anyways...

[Kaleyen]

Sigil will over write hate transfers until the duration of the spell is up. So if you have an assassin giving you 22%(is that what they give?, meh), that 22% will be suspended when you throw up Sigil

[Rast]

it also skips over your amended target doesn't it?

[Kaleyen]

Yup, all other hate transfers.

[Rast]

<p>So, this begs the question.  (I'm trying to learn to be a better tank <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)</p><p>Is Sigil really a worthwhile tool in a MT group where it would be, you, a dirge, 3 healers and your amends target?  Is there really enough hate in that group (over the 20 seconds it is active) to justify suspending your 41% hate transfer off of your amends target?</p>

[OrcSlayer96]

Kuian@Butcherblock wrote: <blockquote>Sigil will over write hate transfers until the duration of the spell is up. So if you have an assassin giving you 22%(is that what they give?, meh), that 22% will be suspended when you throw up Sigil </blockquote>Don't see that as a problem really, as the devs stated the cap on %hate transfered/gained is 50% and as long as tranfer is ok after the duration of Sigil is done then all is good in my book.  My Master 1 Amends is 41% agro siphon and the master 1 Sigil enhanced AA is 36% agro siphoned to me for all in my group non amends for 20 seconds evry 2 mins.  The best transfers on a assasin/swashie is around 29/26% so for me it is a win win situation.  I know our hate siphons/reverse transfers are subject to the whims of game updates, but as to the time i am writing this, it all seems ok.

[OrcSlayer96]

Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote><p>So, this begs the question.  (I'm trying to learn to be a better tank <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)</p><p>Is Sigil really a worthwhile tool in a MT group where it would be, you, a dirge, 3 healers and your amends target?  Is there really enough hate in that group (over the 20 seconds it is active) to justify suspending your 41% hate transfer off of your amends target?</p></blockquote>Sigil skips the amends target, it does not count it into the equation, thus the amends target is still transfering hate.  They fixed this a few updates back, and after testing with nuke happy wizards/warlocks/rangers, it seems to be the case still.  If you need confirmation from the red names, i think i can dig up a post on the board...<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Rast]

<p>Ok, I'm trying to figure out if it is worth it to use sigil in that case still.  Doesn't seem like there is alot of hate left in that group to siphon off of...</p><p>Dirge with 750 dps, Three healers with about 250 hps each (which seems low, but checks out on some parse calculations I've looked at...).  You'd have a pool of less than 1500 hate to pull from, depending on how much less healing is than damage in hate generation.  If we assume that heals are at 75% (pulled out of [Removed for Content]), you'd only have 1312.5 hate per second generated there, and that is probably a high estimate tbh.  Getting about 486 points of hate per second from sigil.  And that is everyone performing at a very high level really.</p><p>While it is additional hate, is it really enough to make much of a difference?  Especially given the timer on Sigils reuse?</p><p>Am I missing something here? </p>

[Kaleyen]

As the MT I never used it, as the OT I have and it just pwns in PVP :p

[OrcSlayer96]

<p>Using Sigil is up to you and the group/raid setup you have.  There have been weeks where i never needed to use it, while like the other night, it was the main reason i kept AOE agro on the adds that would show up on social agro pulls.  MT wise in tougher group instances it helps when you are alredy amends to a warlock or similar dpser, but want to give some added initial pull protection to the early prewarding shaman or reactive happy cleric.  In a perfect world you should not have to use this much, but i have seen way too many imperfect groups/raids in the past where having 36% boost in hate from group can help.  Most healers will be doing more than just blanket heals, they will be tossing up debuffs, some spell attacks and occasional melee, all of which generate agro and can be siphoned off.  Granted the group dictates if/when you can use it, but it is a nice tool that every paladin should keep handy..<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>OT situations are the best to use this spell, or when the <a href="mailto:sh@t" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">sh@t</a> hits the fan and you are in a melee/spell dps group and need to minimalize the loss of players.   Single/group taunts are the mainstay, but they do have limited range and alot of mobs have at least of them that stays back to cast a spell at you before closing in with the rest, Sigil can help on this too.</p>

[hawsecav19d]

I use sigil on pulls alot as MT it prevents my healers from getting smashed if I get stunned on the way back to raid. We use TeamSpeak so if I get stunned I call it OT gets ready but no one else in raid does anything with sigil up long as no one jumps gun only people with agro are my amends target and my healers who are healing warding me so I normally keep agro till I get cured or stun wears off.

[Rast]

So the best use of Sigil isn't during the fight, but rather on the pull to help establish a earlier lock on the target.  Ok, I'll give that a try then <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[DrJecky]

Also remember, Sigil is only AoE hate from your group, not a straight agro siphon of all hate. I find myself only using Sigil in extreme situations where a lot of adds were drawn or when pulling a large group of mobs. Sigil with consecrate up at the same time will make it nearly impossible for agro to be pulled from you.

[Rast]

<p>Aye, I use sigil a good bit in group tanking, but then you very well may have some additional DPSers in that group so it helps.  This is more of a Raid MTing question (since I have started doing some of that now)</p>

[RaistNA]

Jalathan@Lucan DLere wrote: <blockquote><p>Aye, I use sigil a good bit in group tanking, but then you very well may have some additional DPSers in that group so it helps.  This is more of a Raid MTing question (since I have started doing some of that now)</p></blockquote> When i MT FTH, IS, EH or any of that i use sigil all the time.  The question shouldnt be why use it, should be why not.  Extra hate is extra hate, as long as its not bugging out amends or other hate transfers at the time, theres no reason not to use it.

[Tharinor Degaulle]

<p>Speaking of Sigil, I got my Master I version this past week.  *dances*  All my aggo abilities are now Master I or II.</p><p>Agreed though.  On the pull seems the best place to use it when MTing.  Throw it into a macro to let the people in your group know it's up for 20 secs if there's anything they can do to bump DPS and consequently, aggro gain from it.  This helps give you build a hate buffer right off the bat, helps protect your healers and primary hate transfers, and makes it less likely that someone who DPSes too hard too early on the pull will pull aggro.</p><p>It also helps retain aggro and build hate in encounters with memwhipe at a certain percentages or like Vilucidae in Lyceum where you must stop your auto attack to avoid ripostes later in the fight.</p>

[Tharinor Degaulle]

Timmey@Unrest wrote: <blockquote>These threads are starting to get old.  If paladins didn't have issues these threads wouldn't crop up over and over again. </blockquote> All classes have similar threads.  More often than not it's like the old computer support joke:  "The problem exists between the screen and the chair."

[wildbill]

i have to agree with you on the debate of how paladins are useful. i have a level 70 pally that i have learned to use well.  with my un-grouped mitigation buffed at almost 5000 and my amends, it makes me a powerful main tank.  i usually put amends on the highest dps'er and with the damage i do, i usually hold aggro very well.  most people dont understand the amends spell we have.  it is probably the best spell that a tank can have.  it actually converts the hate generated by whoever it is put on toward the paladin.  what does that mean?  it means simply that the more damage the person that it is put on does, the more hate that the paladin is given.  it holds aggro better than any taunt whatsoever.  as a matter of fact, depending on what classes i have with me in groups, i can put it on the highest dps person and dont even have to taunt at all.      i have also found that using devotion every time it is up....(which wards for like 3k at master 1 level) also increases my hate as well as applying a damage shield on myself or if i am main assisting...then the main tank gets it.  I have also found that the damage intercept spell i have is quite useful.  it actually absorbs 75% of the damage that someone else takes in the group and applies it to me.  I found that if someone does happen to pull the mob off of me, then while i am targeting the mob, i can apply devotion and it will go to the person the mob is on, and then use my damage intercept spell to absorb the damage....i have found 100% of the time, it pulls the mob back to me at that point and i have all the hate that i want.      when i am raiding and main assisting a guard or zerker, i just use the devotion on them every chance i get to ward them for the 3k in damage and also use damage intercept as well as assisting the healers with my emergency heals and direct and group heals.   It is like having two tanks at once, as well as having another healer.  I have found as well as proven to everyone around me, that paladins are the best main assist tank in the game.  we can also hold our own against a guardian or zerker any day.  did i mention that in pure offensive stance that i have found myself at the top of the parse when i go all out?  smite evil=hits for 3k in a group, got two others that hit for 2k and 1k and can use those spells pretty quickly again along with the melee damage as well.     so.........paladins useless class?   pfft....please....... i have played with one of the best paladins in the game in some raids where he i

[Tharinor Degaulle]

<cite>Tamesan wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Hmm how do you avoid getting interupted when being hit by 6 mobs?</p><p>Hammer Ground (if its up) will let you get off a Ward, and Hammer Ground is now on a shared timer with other AA abilities so having it up when you need to heal a problem. Normally I am spamming my Haste AA.</p><p><b>Giving a class designed to tank, slow cast heals, is a basic design flaw.</b></p><p>Heals and especially group heals can help a lot with agro even though they are half as good as DPS, using them in a group when you get adds, can pull mobs onto you if you are fast enough but arent so useful if you are fighting  multiple yellow mobs that will interrupt you often.</p><p>Our heals arent mana efficient compared to Healer classes, so we should at least get fast ones that you can cast while tanking.</p><p>Paladins make very good group tanks although the Tank role, in almost all instanced zones, can be taken by Scouts nowadays. If you have a poorly balanced or undersized group then a Paladin is a fantastic choice because you can fill most of the gaps. The same goes for poorly balanced raids, but if your raid has all the classes nicely present then your utility doesnt count for as much and since EoF requires high DPS from all mellees you will be replaced by a Zerker most likely, Palladins can DPS but Zerkers can do it better unless you have better gear.</p><p>Amends/Sigil can help overcome many drawbacks however as not only can it help a DPS class really let go, it helps you keep agro if thats your role. In my Guild, Bards have taken this role in DPS groups because they can allow a whole group to have high DPS and not get agro whereas a Pally can only help one DPS'er.</p><p>Our Rez becomes more useful in groups also because you can actually find the bodies quickly as opposed to running around looking for them in a raid, and standing on them to Rez, where the location arrow is useless if your settings are turned down (assuming the body isnt up a wall or somewhere else you cant stand). Rez should be the same distance as Bards at least.</p><p>There are Paladins MT'ing some high level raiding Guilds on some servers, and good luck to them, it has been my experience that in a well balanced raid Paladins arent even considered over Zerkers, on my server I havent seen a high level raiding Guild advertise for a Pally, <i>ever</i>.</p><p>BTW I saw it said on another thread by a high level raiding Pally that at high level raiding the job of a Pally is DPS and holding agro, that it, thats all, no healing or rezzing. This seems pretty correct to me, apart from LOH heals are too slow. At the high end of DPS, amends will get you agro off the MT if you are in a support role, which is undesirable, I am not uber equipped and if this becomes a problem I just switch to Defensive. </p><p>PS my Pally doesnt higher end raid because my Swashy is asked for, never my Pal, hence he is KoS and instance equipped.</p></blockquote><p>You avoid interruptions by raising your focus skill and increasing your avoidance, especially through the block (uncontested frontal) and parry/riposte skills.  I hit around 59-61% total avoidance when MTing and OTing - I don't have the exact numbers sitting in front of me but that's approaching 35% base avoidance, 12-13% parry, and ~25% block.  I'm hitting this number with about 64-65% mitigation.  Keep the mobs in front of you to keep block in play (it's frontal avoidance only).  Use adornments to increase these - 2% parry/riposte on 1h weapon, 2% parry on wrists, +7 parry on bracers (or hands, can't remember which one off the top of my head) and +1% block on shield (tier 6 adornment).  Use gear that increases agility, defense, and parry where possible.</p><p>Ideally, you want to try to keep mitigation and avoidance close to each other due to the diminishing returns, but if you can get both to 60-65% you're golden.</p>

[Daine]

Best tank I know is a pally, he even tanks raids when their MT can't show up.  In groups the judge of a good tank is based off of the person behind the toon, and in raids it's based more off of stats but still a decent bit off of RL intelligence.  I say let the debate die, it's based on the player anyways.

[Darlion]

<p>I'm gonna have to disagree with the original poster on one point. Yes, we are great off tanks, but there is no reason what so ever that, with similiar gear, we can't match a guardian in the main tanking role in many situations. Unless the mob has nukes that go over 8k, hp is often just not that huge an issue, and what with the hero line, and the right shield, we have significantly more uncontested avoidance than any other tank (I'm not sure if they stack, hasn't dropped on naggy yet, but cuirass of hatred, soulfire gladius, and scaled shield of growth should put you near 37-39% block).</p><p>I know for a fact, when it comes to mobs that you don't get solid debuffs on them, I blow all other tanks away (Farstride unicorn is the one that comes to mind). The only thing that a guardian (or an SK for that matter) has over a guardian is significant snap agro. We don't have reinforcement, or deathmarch/PT, but that has rarely been an issue for me, because we generate so much agro through amends and sigil (don't know why you guys have an issue with it, it generates so much agro for me) that it's quite rare when I lose agro if the group is set properly.</p><p>Oh and Divine aura rocks. Nothing can compare with it.</p>

[OrcSlayer96]

<cite>wildbill wrote:</cite><blockquote>i have to agree with you on the debate of how paladins are useful. i have a level 70 pally that i have learned to use well.  with my un-grouped mitigation buffed at almost 5000 and my amends, it makes me a powerful main tank.  i usually put amends on the highest dps'er and with the damage i do, i usually hold aggro very well.  most people dont understand the amends spell we have.  it is probably the best spell that a tank can have.  it actually converts the hate generated by whoever it is put on toward the paladin.  what does that mean?  it means simply that the more damage the person that it is put on does, the more hate that the paladin is given.  it holds aggro better than any taunt whatsoever.  as a matter of fact, depending on what classes i have with me in groups, i can put it on the highest dps person and dont even have to taunt at all.      i have also found that using devotion every time it is up....(which wards for like 3k at master 1 level) also increases my hate as well as applying a damage shield on myself or if i am main assisting...then the main tank gets it.  I have also found that the damage intercept spell i have is quite useful.  it actually absorbs 75% of the damage that someone else takes in the group and applies it to me.  I found that if someone does happen to pull the mob off of me, then while i am targeting the mob, i can apply devotion and it will go to the person the mob is on, and then use my damage intercept spell to absorb the damage....i have found 100% of the time, it pulls the mob back to me at that point and i have all the hate that i want.      when i am raiding and main assisting a guard or zerker, i just use the devotion on them every chance i get to ward them for the 3k in damage and also use damage intercept as well as assisting the healers with my emergency heals and direct and group heals.   It is like having two tanks at once, as well as having another healer.  I have found as well as proven to everyone around me, that paladins are the best main assist tank in the game.  we can also hold our own against a guardian or zerker any day.  did i mention that in pure offensive stance that i have found myself at the top of the parse when i go all out?  smite evil=hits for 3k in a group, got two others that hit for 2k and 1k and can use those spells pretty quickly again along with the melee damage as well.     so.........paladins useless class?   pfft....please....... i have played with one of the best paladins in the game in some raids where he i </blockquote>Just to clarify for any non paladin readers, the ward we have wards for a base 1,384 health i think after any mitigation is factored in.  With a good crit and some plus healing gear on, you can get around 1,700 at the most from it.  Please don't factor mitigation into how effective the ward is, being as everybody's mitigation differs and the numbers can be scewed.  ward is nice to have and it stacks with shaman wards, but on epics it usually covers a portion of a hit..<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Also, if you have you intercept at Master 1 it is 100% damage absorbed from target for 1 hit, making it a psuedo stoneskin for the target, plus if you time it right, you can have more than 1 intercept going before a pull by selecting a 2nd or 3rd target on the intercepts.  Remember also that Intercepts are ZERO AGRO for you, any healing you do to you or ward will generate soem agro but tossing intercept on the target will not cause the mob to agro you.  Not disputing that we can be a awesome OT, but wanted to make sure we were not falsly advertising our wards...<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Gorpier]

<cite>Zergosch wrote:</cite><blockquote>hi, i play paly since beta and they can be very usefull. as long as everything runs right at the raid, none will notice me (normaly). but if the mt and ot drops, i come to play. no i can´t heal full dmg from epic, but i can backup buffs and heals from others which make me stand longer so the other tanks can come up again. sometimes i cover dmg spikes from raidmobs with lay on hands, so the healer can keep the mt running. i like the paladin as supporter/rezzer/emergency tank (even tho, i dont want to mt anyhow ^^). btw. some DD´s do love Amends ^^ (furies too). which tank does the better job? hm... i dont bother, depends on gear, playstlye, knowlege and encounter. i keep my paly anhow + SoE didn´t nerf plays (recently). so long s.t., Zergosch </blockquote> I agree with Zergosch here.  A paladin is not a stand out OMG awesome damage or tanking machine, but we do bring a lot to a group/raid in my oppinion.  If for nothing else, for back up heals to stay standing long enough for the tank and the healers to grab the situation, and we can hold aggro if something goes wrong and the MT goes down.  To me that says we can save a bad situation if played right.. and it is ALWAYS, reguardless of class, going to depend on the things Zergosch said, playstyle, gear, Knowlege, encounter...  Just my humble opinion. edited because I missed a comma making my statement look like it was knowlege of gear that mattered instead of gear, knowlege, etc...  And because my spelling sucks.

[MikeMatsumo]

GROUP TANK -  Paladin should be the best group tank ever. NO DISCUSSION. with amends, sigil of heroism, adeptIII in taunts you should not loose aggro. we owned any tank here. RAID TANK. I was MT in all KOS instances t7 without no problem with my main. of course you need know very well your class for that. rights aa, master II in aoe taunt, etc... but you can do without problems. what im seen in most guilds that raid a lot is: they give all good gear for guardians. when guardian dont show ups they put the pally for tank. and guess? pally dies. and people start with rumors that pallys sux. that happens with me. our guardian and bersek leaves guild.  my job tank now. my gear was fabled but not good like guardian and i could not tank few nameds with all adds in same time. and people in guild keep saying: pally is worsy. [Removed for Content]. that. after 2 months i have good gear. and guess again? i start tank that same nameds with all adds like guardian. so, DONT let people say you cant do everything in "tanking" you can. of course, some mobs will be more hard for you than guardians, another more hard then you for bersk. but you can. but i agree that tank in raids is more easy for guardian. i mean, a average skill player with guardian can tank very well the most hard mobs. paladin have to be excellent skill. PVP group as main tank ready group tank. same. we rocks. sigil of heroism, divine aura, consacrete, doom ftw. pvp solo: kalath, taunter, abel, denzei, kuain is better then me in that. (nagafen server) so i will not say to much here. some classes for me is a joke to kill. but fews is pain... like brigands. i just cant beat any good brigand in server. about this, i start this post for try help myself and anothers. if you can help please come. <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=371077" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=371077</a> everything i can say is we are not a easy class to play solo in pvp. each class you need fight in different way. but its a good class and have everything that you need. what i mean for example you cant beat one group of 4 lvls 60-65. i saw many videos with rangers/brigands doint that with lvls 70. so, its really hard farm tokens like that. you are a class for "duel" or "group". not for make 1 vs 2. thats my vision.