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View Full Version : Lowering Heal amounts in PVP will make Contested monsters impossible on pvp servers.


Somatic
06-18-2007, 12:06 PM
On test my my heals in pvp have dropped by over HALF. A) Currently doing contested while having PVP on you is possible, just very challenging.  Some guilds have beaten Hiricanus and such with a 2x on them.  Won't be possible after patch, 1 AOE = groups dead, because wards/reactives reduced by 75 percent. After these changes go live, it won't matter.  All people will need to do is draw the main tank into combat (any AOE).  Then the tanks groups heals will drop by 75 percent and they will die instantly. -- Grats token farmers, grats infamy lovers = Ez mode for you. This new rule will just make it so Level 70 guilds have no chance to kill contested monsters since two to three people (rangers/bards). Solution: 1) if people u engage are in a fight with 4x contested monster then their heals are not effected AT ALL. Then it would be fair to the 4x since they are after all tanking a 4x monster and then trying to kill a 2x-4x of Players. No reason to weight all the advantages to the people who already have a huge advantage.

Armawk
06-18-2007, 12:18 PM
<p>Wassa woo what? PVP changes affect PVE events? and hels are dropped by 75%?</p><p>Since when?</p>

Greeen-_-Ranger
06-18-2007, 12:24 PM
Why would you [Removed for Content] about having a hard time killing a CONTESTED MOB.  Your solution seems reasonable though <img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Somatic
06-18-2007, 12:33 PM
Heals are dropped HUGE on test right now.  Maybe it wont' go live but that is what is on test. The reason it sucks, is because contested drop great loot which helps in PVP. A) It's ALREADY hard to beat contested 4x AND fight off 2x-4x of players 2) It will be not hard, but IMPOSSIBLE, after this change.  I predict:  After change, 10 people on server will stop all guilds that are able to defeat any contested 4x encounters.   10 seconds of 75 percent reduced heals will kill the best equiped Main tank groups. Example: Contested Mayong 1) ranger zones in 2) ranger has macro to Miracle Shot main tank of 4x upstairs 3) Main tank group upstairs notices their Heals have been lowered by 75 percent 4) Main tank group dies to next AOE 5) ranger laughs + gains infamy

Somatic
06-18-2007, 01:12 PM
I just think pvp server should not mean you can't do contested because of game mechanics that force a unfair advantage on the people who already have the unfair advantage. E.g., The Raid is tanking / healing through 4x monster, the monsters AOEs do not hit the opposition The Raid is already hindered by PVP healing penalty once PVP engages The opposition gets every advantage already, and they are going to give them more? To me this sounds like the opposition cannot already win in a unfair fight and wants even more unfairness? Not fair as in #s or abilities, but rather in pure game mechanics. Opposition now will have:  ---------------------------------------- First strike Advantage -- don't matter what you do your not going to stop a Pact group or raid from getting in. 75 percent heal reduction Advantage - the thing they did not have before, they had reduction but it was bearable enough to kill them in time - sometimes. 4x monster pounding raid Advantage, while they are immune to it's AOEs/frontals The above advantages and the comments I see from the people who are the opposition leads me to the conclusion they just want a "win" button so you can farm tokens/fame.  You want to farm them but not in the cheapest method, just the second cheapest. Raiders are not asking for a win button, they already have the unfair end which they are FINE with, but to keep making it more unfair, seems like the opposition is being given a "win" button? Just my view, I can also see the view of the opposition -- a view that is:  [Removed for Content] we already have all these advantages but we can't kill them anyway--please give us more advantages Devs!!!

CresentBlade
06-18-2007, 03:00 PM
<p>If they screw with healers to much then they kill the game. No healers no game. As it is there are very few healers that heal, just bunch of healers running around trying to focus on DPS. If they mess up heals you will run off the few real healer off and with no healers this game nose dives.</p><p>As it is right now level 35-50 range is very hard to find group or even a healer, all the lockers killing the spread of players.</p>

tiredang
06-18-2007, 03:07 PM
<cite>CresentBlade wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>If they screw with healers to much then they kill the game. No healers no game. As it is there are very few healers that heal, just bunch of healers running around trying to focus on DPS. If they mess up heals you will run off the few real healer off and with no healers this game nose dives.</p><p>As it is right now level 35-50 range is very hard to find group or even a healer, all the lockers killing the spread of players.</p></blockquote>Well, you know, if they do mess with heals suddenly druids are really the only healers that make sense.  Slow casting, small heals with far less utility than druids means no one really will want to group with shamans and clerics.  Good thing my 70 is a warden I suppose -- heal power may be cut but I'll still have nature's walk!

Darkor
06-18-2007, 03:39 PM
<p>I am on Test right now on my 70 Fury - i dont see any changes in heals? Where do you have your infos from?</p><p>I cant even outheal a tank when a swashy or ranger attacks them at the current state - why would they lower my heals lol</p>

Aeralik
06-18-2007, 03:44 PM
Remember this is a test server.  Testing is going on especially with heals and we were adjusting an override option over the weekend.  So don't jump to conclusions just yet <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

The_Real_Ohno
06-18-2007, 04:03 PM
Since DPS was nerfed acrossed the board, just make sense heals need to be looked at.

XeroXs84
06-18-2007, 04:06 PM
fact is the healing needs to be reduced to be in tune with the reduced damage..still, i agree that this raiding thing is a big problem.. and your suggestion sounds very good to me. Just need to make sure it cant be abused (like a x4 of 70s in CL/ant, engaged with a epic level 20 mob to maintain full heals and not getting really hit)

Wytie
06-18-2007, 04:12 PM
<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote> and we were adjusting an override option over the weekend</blockquote><p> wish i knew what the hell that meant................</p><p>I'll tell ya what it should mean heh it should mean that if your in pvp & pve combat that your spells and heals should adjust to the target you are hitting, or who has the most hate with the pve encounter or the pvp encounter.</p><p>That way if your into a fight half way threw and get engaged into pvp combat your heals and dps isnt gimped intill the pve encounter dies of the pvp encounter has more hate built than the pve encounter.</p><p>This would help with exploiting the system by agroing a grey and fighing in pvp to get the pve advantages, or getting gimped from being in a pve & pvp fight.</p><p>  </p>

Splintered
06-18-2007, 04:26 PM
lower damage and lowering heals would not make any sense. Please, I don't care if you reduce my healers damage to 0, still allow me to do my job! If you lowered both, then both would cancel each other out and the dps nerf would mean squat.

Bozidar
06-18-2007, 04:56 PM
<p>If you don't publicize changes, how can people know what is or what isn't a valid test?  </p><p>Quit being ninjas, it's not conducive to an educated and rational response from your test base!!!!</p>

Norrsken
06-18-2007, 05:00 PM
<cite>Splintered wrote:</cite><blockquote>lower damage and lowering heals would not make any sense. Please, I don't care if you reduce my healers damage to 0, still allow me to do my job! If you lowered both, then both would cancel each other out and the dps nerf would mean squat. </blockquote>No, it would mean things like, clothies and tanks dying in 4-5 secodns is a thing of the past.

Keff
06-18-2007, 05:23 PM
Well I am not sure what the answer is, but I know that a warden 5 levels lower can stand toe to toe with a paladin, not even kite, and win the power game every time because they heal so well. They do enough damage to take me out and keep themselves healed everytime, even with less AA points and comparible equipment/spells. Something needs to be done, because you can barely find any healers but druids on Venekor becuase they are so over powered. Everyone loves to play the easy class.

The_Real_Ohno
06-18-2007, 05:39 PM
<cite>Splintered wrote:</cite><blockquote>lower damage and lowering heals would not make any sense. Please, I don't care if you reduce my healers damage to 0, still allow me to do my job! If you lowered both, then both would cancel each other out and the dps nerf would mean squat. </blockquote> Thats only if they adjust dmg the exact same as heals.  Heals DO need <b><u>looked</u></b> at.  They DO need to be toned down some, but without testin, how would we find out?  Certin classes that chewed through Healers have got there dmg reduced even more then half.  A Druid that can crit a HoT for 900 per tick after the dmg nerf is alot.  Again they need to be looked at.

Darkor
06-18-2007, 05:51 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>Well I am not sure what the answer is, but I know that a warden 5 levels lower can stand toe to toe with a paladin, not even kite, and win the power game every time because they heal so well. They do enough damage to take me out and keep themselves healed everytime, even with less AA points and comparible equipment/spells. Something needs to be done, because you can barely find any healers but druids on Venekor becuase they are so over powered. Everyone loves to play the easy class.</blockquote><p> Everytime i hear Warden, Warden and more Warden. Please Sir, there are more priest classes out there than Warden. I play a very well equipped Fury and i surely cant out heal the DPS of a good scout or bruiser/monk. I always relied on my in combat run speed to get enough range to heal but Swashbuckler and Ranger were still a pain. Now i can live with them taking out my runspeed because i MIGHT outheal the dpses of scoutclasses now. But what Sense would it make to nerf dps and then nerf heals aswell? DPS was nerfed because NOONE could outheal. Yeah you might say wardens and their wonderfull heal abilities but keep in mind that everyone is shouting for a heal nerf in general and not only a warden nerf. That would hurt all priest classes way too much including furies. People need to realize that theres 2 different types of druids and whenever you have a problem with beating one its almost always a warden. And your scenario with the paladin is just silly imo. A paladin - especially when not at T7 is no dps at all. </p><p> Ajjantis - lvl 70 Dreadnaught Fury who still gets his butt kicked by Wizards sometimes.</p>

CresentBlade
06-18-2007, 05:54 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>Since DPS was nerfed acrossed the board, just make sense heals need to be looked at.</blockquote><p>Healers had a hard time living through the high DPS output of scouts, healing really doesnt need to be messed with. Every class was suppose to have a bane class, and now scouts have theirs healers.</p><p>Scouts could burn through healers pretty fast before GU will all the stun/interrupt/high DPS now its a more even fight. </p>

CresentBlade
06-18-2007, 05:57 PM
<cite>euar wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Dps is being nerfed to bring the game into more balance. It dosent make sense to nerf heals just because you nerf damage. The dps is the overpowered one in the equation. While you may not be able to kill healers that still dosent mean that healers can kill you. If you are worried about the healers becoming overpowered that is valid but i still think you can reduce their pvp damage to adjust it not heals at all. The goal is longer fights with more strategy. Nerfing heals will not result in this and it will cause all kinds of in game problems such as the contested issue mentioned by the OP.</p><p>Btw Onyx has never logged in to kill a raid mob in the middle of the night contrary to popular belief.</p></blockquote><p>Scouts are just lashing out at who ever they can now they have to play on even terms. Scouts are afraid it is gonna be payback time for all the people they use to slaughter, and it is<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</p><p>Most of the healers classes can not DPS for anything, so please lay off with the heal junk thats what they do. </p>

silentpsycho
06-18-2007, 07:02 PM
<cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>Well I am not sure what the answer is, but I know that a warden 5 levels lower can stand toe to toe with a paladin, not even kite, and win the power game every time because they heal so well. They do enough damage to take me out and keep themselves healed everytime, even with less AA points and comparible equipment/spells. Something needs to be done, because you can barely find any healers but druids on Venekor becuase they are so over powered. Everyone loves to play the easy class.</blockquote><p> Everytime i hear Warden, Warden and more Warden. Please Sir, there are more priest classes out there than Warden. I play a very well equipped Fury and i surely cant out heal the DPS of a good scout or bruiser/monk. I always relied on my in combat run speed to get enough range to heal but Swashbuckler and Ranger were still a pain. Now i can live with them taking out my runspeed because i MIGHT outheal the dpses of scoutclasses now. But what Sense would it make to nerf dps and then nerf heals aswell? DPS was nerfed because NOONE could outheal. Yeah you might say wardens and their wonderfull heal abilities but keep in mind that everyone is shouting for a heal nerf in general and not only a warden nerf. That would hurt all priest classes way too much including furies. People need to realize that theres 2 different types of druids and whenever you have a problem with beating one its almost always a warden. And your scenario with the paladin is just silly imo. A paladin - especially when not at T7 is no dps at all. </p><p> Ajjantis - lvl 70 Dreadnaught Fury who still gets his butt kicked by Wizards sometimes.</p></blockquote><p>Nerf heals, root/snare, runspeed and damage of the fury and he/she is a token vending machine.  Scout DPS needed to be looked at IMHO because at 55, very well equipped and master level heals, it is not possible to out heal one green con scout (and it gets worse at 70, from what I've heard).</p><p>I'm done if this goes live because it is just plain stupidity.  </p>

Krokous
06-18-2007, 09:53 PM
dont nerf heals, nerf druid dps thats all, MAYBE increse druid single heals power cost

Trouserwaffles
06-18-2007, 10:00 PM
In one year pvp will be limited to just us bumping our heads into someone else's head. by then, arms will be cut off as well. oh, you're down to <span style="color: #ff3300">2%</span> health? good luck poncho, they've cut your legs off as well. Your best bet is you started this fight on a hill, and you can roll yourself down the hill. hey, i'm just warning you all.

CresentBlade
06-18-2007, 10:16 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>Well I am not sure what the answer is, but I know that a warden 5 levels lower can stand toe to toe with a paladin, not even kite, and win the power game every time because they heal so well. They do enough damage to take me out and keep themselves healed everytime, even with less AA points and comparible equipment/spells. Something needs to be done, because you can barely find any healers but druids on Venekor becuase they are so over powered. Everyone loves to play the easy class.</blockquote>Paladins are not known for their solo power, you shine in a group.

Rastaah
06-18-2007, 11:25 PM
<p>Im not too worried since EVERYONE's heals are being nerfed. Its across the board dps/heal nerfs.    </p><p>As to wardens, just trust me, we will stick rock because the deal is, we are not just about heals and damage. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> We have other factors that play into us being a great fun class.</p><p>We will still do very well. Not too worried. (yet)</p>

rvbarton
06-19-2007, 05:47 AM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><cite>Splintered wrote:</cite><blockquote>lower damage and lowering heals would not make any sense. Please, I don't care if you reduce my healers damage to 0, still allow me to do my job! If you lowered both, then both would cancel each other out and the dps nerf would mean squat. </blockquote> Thats only if they adjust dmg the exact same as heals.  Heals DO need <b><u>looked</u></b> at.  They DO need to be toned down some, but without testin, how would we find out?  Certin classes that chewed through Healers have got there dmg reduced even more then half.  A Druid that can crit a HoT for 900 per tick after the dmg nerf is alot.  Again they need to be looked at.</blockquote>Perhaps the damage that Healers put out will be nerfed also?  You aren't the only one that is having their DPS nerfed.  heals DO need to be looked at, but perhaps in a more defensive aspect.  Perhaps this is how they are going to make fights last longer?  Moving away from the 2 & 3 second kills that DPS classes like...um..  Rangers/Swashbucklers/Assassins, into a more balanced game is the ultimate goal. Accept it.  it's going to happen.

Ikuri
06-19-2007, 06:33 AM
<cite>Wytie wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote> and we were adjusting an override option over the weekend</blockquote><p> wish i knew what the hell that meant................</p><p>I'll tell ya what it should mean heh it should mean that if your in pvp & pve combat that your spells and heals should adjust to the target you are hitting, or who has the most hate with the pve encounter or the pvp encounter.</p><p>That way if your into a fight half way threw and get engaged into pvp combat your heals and dps isnt gimped intill the pve encounter dies of the pvp encounter has more hate built than the pve encounter.</p><p>This would help with exploiting the system by agroing a grey and fighing in pvp to get the pve advantages, or getting gimped from being in a pve & pvp fight.</p><p>  </p></blockquote> that could work for damage output, however how is the game going to recocnize when to use a pve heal and when to use a pvp heal if both are going on at the sametime and both players and mobs hitting you ? I don't thin kthe hate system will work very well in a pvp system since taunts don't build hate in pvp ect. My suggestion ? encounter/pvp lock raids when they engage a x4 sothat players cannot attack them at all. Immune to pvp. However they will not be able to attack a raid mob if in pvp encounter. Raid mob must con to the raid in order to be encounter/pvp locked. I know it takes away from the whole fighting off players while raiding a contested, but i personally cant come up with anything else that would make sense without messing up the system too much.

D-DevilK
06-19-2007, 07:19 AM
I personally rolled my Warden because I wanted a tree and leaves circling me. True fuckin' story.

toenukl
06-19-2007, 10:46 AM
Furies had one of the largest dps reductions of all classes. Heals have been murdered now. Cures recast time is terrible long for a pvp encounter. Our in combat run speed, aka our class defining ability(PoC), is now completely gone.  When I saw PoC was gone I thought... a reduction in speed would have made more sense, but oh well, for the better of PvP I guess. When my DPS was blasted I thought, oh well, at least I can still heal through some damage. Then my heals were split in half and now I am pretty worthless. The solution to me would be to make PoC still work for 1/3 the speed in PvP. Move heals back up to about 90% of what they originally were. And leave our DPS nerfed, we needed it imo. As for the original topic, I agree that if you encounter a PvE encounter prior to PvP that your heals should be full power. If you pull a mob during a PvP encounter to get full heals, it would not work due to being already engaged in PvP. That should prevent that possible exploit.

StrollingWolf
06-19-2007, 12:00 PM
<p>The thread is a little shorter now...please stay on topic. Discuss each other's guilds elsewhere.</p>

MistrNole
06-19-2007, 12:07 PM
<cite>StrollingWolf wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The thread is a little shorter now...please stay on topic. <b>Discuss each other's guilds elsewhere.</b></p></blockquote>If your looking to discuss things that SOE doesn't feel comfortable being posted here, check out: <a href="http://eq2flames.com/forumdisplay.php?f=25" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://eq2flames.com/forumdisplay.php?f=25</a>

Rastaah
06-19-2007, 12:17 PM
I did not notice on a level 37 heals were cut in half, did they seriously cut 70th level heals in half in pvp on the test? My 37th warden was cut by about eh, 1/10th or so.  Not much, same with damage. Ward was what was really cut though.   And they have yet to mention that (and no wards are NOT heals)

Rastaah
06-19-2007, 12:18 PM
<p>Lets just say if they are cutting heals in half, lots of people will be quitting, thats just silly.   We already have a hard time healing through burst damage, unless there will be no more burst damage LOL with the nerfs.</p><p>Oh boy........joy joy joy.</p>

Captain Apple Darkberry
06-19-2007, 12:29 PM
<p><span style="color: #ff3300">Apparently the Rangers cried enough...</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff3300">I would agree that heals need some adjustment, but since the seemingly intended theme of the ~nerf~ was to lengthen PvP engagments, perhaps it is the power cost of the spells that should have been adjusted.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff3300">I will tell you that as a Warden I am able to heal through the burst damage of a Ranger (pre nerf), BUT it requires using my emergency, sometimes both, and maybe Heirophantic Genesis.  None of those require power...   ...and THAT is why a Warden seems overpowered.  I was able to heal for more than my life total, with virtually no power used.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff3300">And just something to think about Devs...   ...shouldn't the heal adjustment reflect the DPS adjustments?</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff3300">From what folks are barking about, it seems you might have nerfed heals far more than the damage reduction...</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff3300">If the intention was merely to keep the solo scouts on top of the food chain, why bother to do anything at all...?</span></p>

Cocytus
06-19-2007, 02:17 PM
<p>This was the result of damage toning down in t7 making healers particularly overpowered...and so they needed nerfing.</p><p>This is exactly what you get when people, PVPers in particular, whine so [I cannot control my vocabulary] much that they get everything nerfed to hell and a large number of things become near impossible. On top of that, the complaining gets so out of hand it affects non PVP servers. Maybe the real solution has been what I always originally said...develope strategies to deal with <b><u>everything</u></b> and don't whine so much.</p><p>Sucks, doesn't it <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

Cyst
06-19-2007, 02:34 PM
I watched two groups last night on test take out a x4 epic with others locking them into PvP.

Rastaah
06-19-2007, 03:06 PM
<p>I think its really stupid to nerf the dps then nerf the heals, as now we  are back to square one.</p><p> I have no clue what the answer is, but as a warden I feel balanced, now some might laugh, but I think some classes are NOT balanced and therein lies the problem of why wardens seem strong against SOME classes.</p><p>Balance on a class by class basis is needed not across the board nerfage.   Tone down scout dps a bit,  tone heals a bit, a bit, not by half lol.  And for gods sake leave wards alone.</p>

sundrop
06-19-2007, 03:27 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote> As for the original topic, I agree that if you encounter a PvE encounter prior to PvP that your heals should be full power. If you pull a mob during a PvP encounter to get full heals, it would not work due to being already engaged in PvP. That should prevent that possible exploit. </blockquote> As perfect as it gets, lets make it happen....