Warden nerf /Fury buff?

[Pimpfrog]

<p>I am curious why they are nerfing the EoF aa tree on wardens? Decreasing our mele crit by 15 %?  And at the same time they are increasing fury dps by giving the last spell in the INT line more damage. </p><p>I am curious if any dev can answer why Furies always seem to get aa lines to increase everything they already have but wardens only get aa lines to add adept1 CAs. Then the one good EoF thing we have the 75% mele crit gets ninja nerfed when SOE talked about revamping the KoS trees not the EoF ones.</p><p>seems like they got it out for the wardens or something. I know we are gimpage and all but come on now. Wardens are like fat women. We need loving also you know.</p>

[Griffinhart]

<cite>Pimpfrog wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I am curious why they are nerfing the EoF aa tree on wardens? Decreasing our mele crit by 15 %?  And at the same time they are increasing fury dps by giving the last spell in the INT line more damage. </p><p>I am curious if any dev can answer why Furies always seem to get aa lines to increase everything they already have but wardens only get aa lines to add adept1 CAs. Then the one good EoF thing we have the 75% mele crit gets ninja nerfed when SOE talked about revamping the KoS trees not the EoF ones.</p><p>seems like they got it out for the wardens or something. I know we are gimpage and all but come on now. Wardens are like fat women. We need loving also you know.</p></blockquote> I don't see any changes to the warden EOF tree.  Only to the druid KOS tree.  Care to elaborate?  Plus that "buff to furies" is also a buff for Wardens.  Any changes the warden is seeing is being changed for the Fury as well.

[TheBu]

<p>please.. leave the fury out of it... You talking about a combined classtree. . the Druid tree that wardens and furys have equal access too. INT line you also have access too."last spell in the INT line more damage. "</p><p>"SOE talked about revamping the KoS trees not the EoF ones."  Aw... well u might have point on this...  not sure why ther changing the eof tree.</p>

[Owlbe]

ok, lets rephrase that........ aa abilities that play more to fury's strengths are being boosted and aa abilities that play to the wardens strengths are being nerfed.  That statement you can not deny. Also supposedly our EoF ability to crit on 75% of attacks has been reduced to 60%. ..... bear in mind inquisitors got a similar 20% reduction to their crit chance % (as did all melee priests it seems) THEN they give them aa's to get 30% double attacks which from initial testing is actually INCREASING their DPS.  W  T  F  is going on???!?!!?

[PaganSaint]

You mean like the double attack that druids had since KoS launched?

[GinFan]

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>You mean like the double attack that druids had since KoS launched? </blockquote><p> What?  You got tired picking fights on the bruiser thread and decided to come here?  Obiviously Owlbear is talking big picture not just a straight comparison of double attack %s.  He compares these two melee priests as one with a nerf vs. one with a nerf followed by a perk.</p><p>Griffinhart wrote: </p><blockquote>I don't see any changes to the warden EOF tree.  Only to the druid KOS tree.  Care to elaborate?  Plus that "buff to furies" is also a buff for Wardens.  Any changes the warden is seeing is being changed for the Fury as well. </blockquote><p>Though available to Wardens, as things stand, the Int line is clearly designed with Furies in mind.  To this I say I'm happy for Furies, I want to see more dps out my Fury friends to be sure.  Similarly, it would be silly for a Fury to go Strength line as this line is clearly put in place with Warden's in mind.   </p><p>I believe the OP's point wasn't trying to pick a fight, but rather to point out that nuke dps (Fury friendly) has improved whilst melee dps (Warden friendly) has been decreased.  This seems unbalanced in general as Furies are capable of significantly out dps'ing Wardens as things are today and the proposed changes will widen the gap.  </p><p>Personally, I think the design error is not so much in tweaking the Druid tree, but the lack of tweaking in the Warden tree.  We don't get a lot to work with.  Sure we can go melee, but I don't think it makes us better as a class, we still can't compete with a Fury for personal dps and dps group improvement, and with all the positioning our slight healing edge is negated.  Class gear doesn't support it so in a sense, melee changes us, but doesn't make us better.  The proposed changes seems to decrease the benefits even more.</p><p>Not calling for a Fury or Inq nerf, but simply Warden love.</p>

[Lockeye]

The Warden EoF melee crit chance reduction is actually a bug fixed in another test update soon.

[PaganSaint]

How am I picking a fight when I merely made a comment about another class gaining something druids already had? Every druid, warden and fury, I know are rather pleased with the coming changes. I mean how can they not be? <ul><li>Starter - Shapeshift: The nature of the shapeshift is no longer determined by weapon; Instead multiple abilities are added for each illusion type.<span style="color: #cc3300"> </span></li><li>Strength 4 - Natural Boon: Increased trigger percentage from 2% to 4% per rank. Reduced group heal effect by 30%. <span style="color: #cc3300">Doubled proc rate, slight decrease in heal amount, net gain of more HPS from this ability.</span> </li><li>Strength 5 - Primordial Strike: Increased damage, and it cannot be parried, riposted, deflected, or blocked. <span style="color: #cc3300">Mostly for solo or PvP druids, increased damage and ability to hit everytime, net gain of more damage output.</span> </li><li>Agility 4 - Wild Regeneration: Additionally increases the initial tick of each regeneration by 3%. <span style="color: #cc3300">More health healed faster, net gain of more health healed.</span> </li><li>Agility 5 - Tortoise Shell: Stifles/Roots Druid instead of stuns, and doubles shield effectiveness. Also increases health regeneration of nearby allies. Removed power cost. <span style="color: #cc3300">Can now perform auto attacks and use items while adding a bit of regen for a couple ticks and removing the power cost, net gain of allowing some DPS to be applied and power, health, status removal and click items to be used while providing AE immunity.</span> </li><li>Stamina 3 - Serene Knowledge: Increased triggered percentage from 1% to 2% per rank. Added interrupt immunity. <span style="color: #cc3300">Doubled proc rate for an anti stun, that now allows interrupts to not affect the druid, net gain of less interrupted heals.</span> </li><li>Stamina 5 - Serenity: Removed power cost. Added interrupt immunity. <span style="color: #cc3300">No power cost, stun and now interrupt immunity, net gain of less heals and nukes being interrupted.</span> </li><li>Wisdom 4 - Hierophant Obfuscation: Instead of hate reduction, it reduces the chance that any hostile spell lands on the Hierophant by 1.5% per rank. <span style="color: #cc3300">Percentage based AE and spell immunity, net gain of who knows, will need to test to see if 12% chance to avoid AEs/Spells helps.</span> </li><li>Wisdom 5 - Rebirth: After death, the buff can be cancelled before the auto-resurrection occurs if desired. <span style="color: #cc3300">Can now prevent auto ressing into adds that haven't de-popped or if you and group want to all revive.</span> </li><li>Intelligence 4 - Stormvision: Also increases ordination skill. <span style="color: #cc3300">Additional plus to a casting skill, net gain of more casting skill! (why this was added who knows!)</span> </li><li>Intelligence 5 - Infusion: Slightly increased damage. <span style="color: #cc3300">Now druids do more damage as they heal, net gain of less DPS lost while healing.</span> </li></ul>I agree though that there needs to be a few changes to wardens to help them in the damage department. One would be to allow wardens to use pride's edge, why the hell can a fury use a two hand sword, but wardens cannot? But to be fair, wardens are the more defensive oriented of the druids, I don't think they should be able to AA into doing as much damage as a fury when the fury can't spec into doing the same defensive duties as a warden and perform just as well. I have not seen anything about the melee crit chance from the Warden EoF AAs being decreased. If it was that is a very poor move in my opinion and should be corrected as soon as possible with maybe a 5% <i>increase</i> to what the percentage is now.

[Terluk]

<p>OK, I just want to say that I play a fury who is now specialized in dealing damage.</p><p>I have the Infusion buff (Intelligence 5) and I use it almost all the time. The fact of the matter is that it contributes very little to our outgoing damage as it only procs on "beneficial effects". This means, even though we, as furies, have a lot more spellcasting offense than wardens, we get no special benefit from it because it is only tied to healing.</p><p>That being said, I can understand your reasoning that the Int line is designed more for furies because we will enjoy Int ranks 3 and 4 more than wardens will, but the final AA, Stormcaller, is not designed for us specifically, nor does it contribute much to my overall dps. I am obviously happy that is increased because I use the ability, but I don't think that it was so lousy that it needed to be increased. What I do feel was bad about the ability was it's power to damage ratio.</p><p>Every time Infusion procs it costs a little bit of power. It was something along the lines of 1 power per 4 points of damage. I would have actually preferred that they lower the power per proc cost instead of increase the damage per proc of this ability. With Infusion up I constantly run out of mana when raiding as it is. I munch down hearts and shards like candy and always feel like a nuisance to the conjurors and necromancers.</p><p> ~Curran of Aura, Antonia Bayle</p>

[PaganSaint]

Any enhancements to the Druid tree is an enhancement to both and the druid tree as listed above are across the board affecting all aspects of playing a druid for any strategy.

[mellowknees72]

<cite>Lockeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>The Warden EoF melee crit chance reduction is actually a bug fixed in another test update soon. </blockquote> Hey, gang - please read this response from an actual DEV.  You're fighting about something that was a BUG and is SOON TO BE CORRECTED. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[KaroX]

<p>Good its just a bug, so how about adding that extra 5% to it so that it is the same as the other healers melee crit chance, 80% <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[mellowknees72]

<cite>KaroX wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Good its just a bug, so how about adding that extra 5% to it so that it is the same as the other healers melee crit chance, 80% <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote> *cough* not all other healers get 80%. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Radigazt]

<p>Two things that make the OP's drama extremely unfounded:</p><p>1)  Both the Strength (mele) line and the Intelligence (spell) line are available for both Warden and Fury ... so equal access to both Warden and Fury.  Plus, now that people are using the mele lines, they've not only become extremely popular, so in an effort to make all of the lines popular, they're rebalancing them.  </p><p>2) The In-Combat runspeed PvP nerf is going to hurt Furies more than Wardens.  It specifically nerfs the Fury's EoF line which just about every Fury takes.  It's being balanced by a buff to ... to .... oh wait, Furies got nothing but nerfs, nevermind.  If the Devs wanted to specifically nerf Wardens in a like manner, it would have nerfed the Warden combat art line, which only benefitted Wardens ... but instead they nerfed the Druid mele line which hurts both Wardens and Furies.  </p><p>Honestlly, I think both Wardens and Furies are going to be plenty powerful, and none of these nerfs are going to sting any more than the nerfs to other classes.  Whining about it is silly.  If you care, play on the Test server and give your feedback there, or post your results here ... that helps keep the un-tested rants to a minimum.  </p>

[Taea]

<cite>Lockeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>The Warden EoF melee crit chance reduction is actually a bug fixed in another test update soon. </blockquote>Lockeye, thank you very much. We were really concerned about this over on the Warden forums <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Pimpfrog]

<p>I am not being dramtic at all. Though wardens and furies can both use any line in the druid tree certain lines are geared more for wardens and others for Furies. You say we have CAs in our warden tree. Yeah that is true but they only go to adept1 and hit for crap even with  STR and mele oriented gear. Where Furies on the other hand have there set armor that gives benefits to there nukes and also there aa lines benefit there nukes. To say a warden can go down the same druid trees doesnt really help us to much if we go down the INT line.</p><p>And there is no rebalancing them. Furies will still be way more offensive then a warden will ever be and thats how soe wants it. I am not bashing furies i like them. Just saying why not bring our dps up a little. How about let us get our combat arts past adept1.  Wishful thinking though.</p><p>And any Fury that picks STR line should just make a new character. totaly pointless line for them. IMO</p>

[lmhotep]

<p>Cry me a river boy!</p><p>Wardens = defense and fury`s = offense!</p><p>Shouldnt THAT be the reason fury`s are "way" more offensive??</p><p>Always the whining and [Removed for Content] that we dish out damage but if you actualy played the frigin class you would see that: IT COMES AT A COST AND TO REALY DO SOME NICE DAMAGE FURY`S ARE DOING 50% LESS HEALING!</p><p>Why oh why are all these posts made by people who dont know [Removed for Content] about one class and only see the green part huh??</p><p>Yes you are being dramatic so if you think its all sooooo unfair just go and role yourself a fury to see how fekin balanced we actualy are!</p><p>Its amazing how totaly ignorant you people can be....</p>

[KinMorbidreamer]

rofl, Furies balanced They are easily the most overpowered class in eq2, but sony won't do anything about it because like 75 pct of the players either play one or have one. Give them a tanking shapeshift (ala WoW) and watch whole raids made of furies destroy endgame. As they are already powerful healers<i> and </i>DPS.

[lmhotep]

<p>And another one who doesnt know [Removed for Content] about the class.</p><p>I bet you dont play one do you else you wouldnt state BS like that.</p><p>Exactly HOW are we overpowered then??</p><p>We heal for the least and IF there was the possibility that we could heal for the most we would run out of power in an eyeblink.</p><p>Oh but you can nuke for alot you say huh? Oh yes we can but that drains our power even more so especialy a combination of both is tricky to do.</p><p>So again: whats the overpowered part?</p>

[Pimpfrog]

<p>Now how is the one being overly dramatic? hmmm Fin.</p><p>As being in one of the top guilds world wide I think i know how to play my class just fine. Also any fury with any sort of power procing gear can heal and nuke non stop and not run out of power so dont play that card where if you could heal more you would run out of power in a blink. I think you are the one who needs to learn how to play your class.</p><p>Also this post was never intended to be a flame on anyone or any class but a few of you choose to turn things that way. </p>

[KinMorbidreamer]

I have played a fury to 70 and raided all KoS and most of EoF with one...so maybe...just maybe I DO know what I'm talking about. I don't play one anymore because I like tanking, but w/e thats besides the point. You heal for the least per heal maybe, but your heals also cost only a fraction of the mana any other class uses, and they are insanely fast to cast. Oh, but they can nuke for alot. When a priest out damages a wizard AND can heal like they do that is something that should be looked at. Mana is not a problem for Furies that know how to play either. Mine never had trouble with dpsing and healing in raids or in a good group. So again: The overpowered part is that - "they are already powerful healers<i> and </i>DPS."

[T'Pol]

Ok Finilie i have a 70 warden and a 67 Fury so i think i can say something about those two classes. Furies are overpowered,its as simple as that. 1. A Fury can dish out way more dps but it costs extremly much mana. 2. A Fury can heal just as good as a warden when played well. 3. Back into the Fray is just overpowered <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> (Furies are supposed to be offensive i dont know any other healer who gets such a good heal as a special) 4. Hibernation is mildly overpowered because its very situational but it can be a life safer in many occasions. Again a very good special. 5.Ring of Fire,Call of storms adds quite a bit of dps,very powerful specials. 6. Wardens specials....they are just stupid <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Tunares watch is just so impressive it can delay a certain death by a few seconds +10% more damage to equipment <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> The wolves are ok. The tree is again useless,the healing very miniscule and it dies very quickly. I wont even start talking about Tranquility <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> In essence Furies all have really useful and powerful specials that help INCREASE their healing ALOT,yet they are considered OFFENSE.Ontop of that furies get 2 specials to increase their dps even more. Warden have specials that do nothing but cost mana to cast and thats it.The only remotely useful spell are the wolves which adds dps. Wardens special do "almost" NOTHING to improve their healing,wolves increase dps slightly yet wardens are considered DEFENSIVE. Did i made myself clear on that? <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Oh btw thx for the dev post concerning the meele crit bug,i am glad its just that,a bug.

[Orthureon]

<p>Haha I love it when Furies complain. You can heal way more than an Inquisitor, for about the same power, shorter cast time and more heals. Your nukes do WAYYY more than ours do, you have higher avoidaince and with good buffs you can buff the crap out of int. All we get is slightly better mit (thanks to the "curve&quot<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> and some CA conversions that can miss constantly because other classes have high avoidaince, oh yeah and we have uber low avoidance. </p><p>Druids should not cry your class is very powerful. I beta buffed an Inquis and Fury on test to see the difference and omg I almost started crying when I saw how much more you can heal than us and how much quicker. I went underwater and started drowning and healed I lasted for about 4 minutes underwater with the constant damage that is done from drowning before I ran out of power. And guess what I was at full health almost the entire time until I ran oom. Not saying you are gods, but you are very powerful classes with nothing to complain about, roll a Shaman if you want to cry.</p>

[PaganSaint]

<p>Orthuren, their nuke does more damage, at 3x to 10x the recast time of the Inquisitor nuke.</p><p>I wonder which ones will logically do more damage... Not to mention all of a druid's DPS comes from nukes while a cleric's comes from a combination of spells(or CAs) and melee. Like the difference between a scout and a mage.</p><p>As for healing power between the two you are comparing apples to oranges, if a cleric is full out healing there is nothing for a druid to heal if in the same group on the same target. Out of group healing is definitely in favor of the druid, but thats fine by me, clerics have the edge in group.</p><p>As far as which druid is the stronger, my bet is completely behind Warden, a well played warden and a well played fury will have the warden out healing the fury due to the amount and nature of the tools available to the warden. While I'd rather see two furies on a raid due to the utility that furies have buffing DPS classes if I only could bring one druid to a raid I'd pick a warden for strength of heals. Even considering how good Back into the Fray is, and I love it more than anything to be honest when playing a fury.</p>

[ChickenCasual]

<p>Why is everyone looking at dps for furys all the time. </p><p>Warden / fury = druid = healer.</p><p>no question that warden heal more than fury.</p><p>as a fury and ap set for healing. I constantly is being out dps'ed by wardens and most other healers.</p><p>dont nerf boost the healing for both classes and down the dps a bit.</p>

[Dallun]

Look, the entire reason Furies are able to do the DPS that they do is because of the Big Nuke and long recast... If you look at raw numbers on paper, you will find that Wardens and Furies can produce the same DPS numbers.  (More or less)  But because the Furies can crank out the DPS is a relatively short period, they have the ability to do more in between the castings.  Wardens on the other hand have small nukes but they can cast them often.  This is one of the reasons (the others being that there is no real point in the other EoF trees for wardens) many Wardens have gone down the Melee path... so they can do DPS (casting speed) and still have the ability to spot heal as needed.  Remember that druids can't heal unless damage is being done, so they have to wait and sit on their heals until the shamans and clerics can't keep up with the healing.  Just remember that the differences in Warden to Fury is about the same as there is between Ranger and Assassin.  Dallun / Fione 70 Warden / 70 Illusionist Antonia Bayle

[Siclone]

Lemon@Innovation wrote: <blockquote>Ok Finilie i have a 70 warden and a 67 Fury so i think i can say something about those two classes. <b><u>Furies are overpowered,its as simple as that.</u></b> 1. A Fury can dish out way more dps but it costs extremly much mana. 2. A Fury can heal just as good as a warden when played well. 3. Back into the Fray is just overpowered <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> (Furies are supposed to be offensive i dont know any other healer who gets such a good heal as a special) 4. Hibernation is mildly overpowered because its very situational but it can be a life safer in many occasions. Again a very good special. 5.Ring of Fire,Call of storms adds quite a bit of dps,very powerful specials. 6. Wardens specials....they are just stupid <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Tunares watch is just so impressive it can delay a certain death by a few seconds +10% more damage to equipment <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> The wolves are ok. The tree is again useless,the healing very miniscule and it dies very quickly. I wont even start talking about Tranquility <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> In essence Furies all have really useful and powerful specials that help INCREASE their healing ALOT,yet they are considered OFFENSE.Ontop of that furies get 2 specials to increase their dps even more. Warden have specials that do nothing but cost mana to cast and thats it.The only remotely useful spell are the wolves which adds dps. Wardens special do "almost" NOTHING to improve their healing,wolves increase dps slightly yet wardens are considered DEFENSIVE. Did i made myself clear on that? <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Oh btw thx for the dev post concerning the meele crit bug,i am glad its just that,a bug. </blockquote>yea, I dont play either but I talked to furries and they all same the same.  I think thats why you see 10 furries to 1 warren in the game too. 

[Oakum]

<cite>PaganSaint wrote:</cite><blockquote>How am I picking a fight when I merely made a comment about another class gaining something druids already had? Every druid, warden and fury, I know are rather pleased with the coming changes. I mean how can they not be? I agree though that there needs to be a few changes to wardens to help them in the damage department. One would be to allow wardens to use pride's edge, why the hell can a fury use a two hand sword, but wardens cannot? <b>But to be fair, wardens are the more defensive oriented of the druids, I don't think they should be able to AA into doing as much damage as a fury when the fury can't spec into doing the same defensive duties as a warden and perform just as well. </b> I have not seen anything about the melee crit chance from the Warden EoF AAs being decreased. If it was that is a very poor move in my opinion and should be corrected as soon as possible with maybe a 5% <i>increase</i> to what the percentage is now. </blockquote><p>Well, yes, wardens are more defensive then fury's. Abouat a hair and a half more, lol. What puts wardens in MT groups and fury's in DPS groups is that wardens, if the healing is even needed, can heal for a little more then fury's overall when the MT is taking more damage then the wards and reactives can handle at a steady rate. </p><p>What really puts them in the MT group over the fury is a warden has only one person dps buff and our group buff (yay for group wis buff, lol) only helps other healers and pally's, especially with diminishing returns.  </p><p>Overall we can heal for a slight bit more then a fury but we do a whole lot dps less dps then one with base unbuffed str or int of a warden being equal to a fury's base uunbuffed int from equipment. Since druids are priest/dps hybrids that has to be off. I even like the idea of wardens being melee while fury's are nukers. Our self mit buff points us that way also. </p><p>Now before KoS came out it was fine.  Wardens healed for a little bit more and Fury DPS was higher by about that same margin then Wardens DPS. With KoS and EoF and their AA's things have gotten out of balance between the two. Healing is basically equal with wardens being able heal more although the all DH spells of the fury's handle spike damage a lot better. DPS is totally unbalanced between Fury and Warden although the melee line offers a potentional way to fix it. </p><p>The problem is the lack of wis/str druid gear (eof sets have no strength), lack of str buffs, and being unable to use 2 handed swords has negated that potentional so far. Mystics can use two handed spears so why can't wardens use two handed swords?</p>

[Dallun]

<blockquote> The problem is the lack of wis/str druid gear (eof sets have no strength), lack of str buffs, and being unable to use 2 handed swords has negated that potentional so far. Mystics can use two handed spears, why can't wardens use two handed swords? </blockquote> Mind you, with the changes this will no longer be an issue as we (Wardens... and I guess some zealous Furies) can use 2H crushing for our STR CA Dallun / Fione 70 Warden / 70 Illusionist Antonia Bayle

[PaganSaint]

With the incoming changes not being able to use a two handed sword will not affect the damage a warden can put out hardly at all anymore if the removal of all Stat2 weapon requirements, excluding shield/ranged requirements, are implemented as said. The self haste attack will be usable with any weapon. That will do a bit of good considering it will be usable with 2h crushing. I still don't know why there is a 2h sword that furies can use but wardens cannot, and why there have not been more 2h swords that are druid usable implemented. But go with what you can it appears.

[UUCyberSte]

<cite>KinMorbidreamer wrote:</cite><blockquote>... So again: The overpowered part is that - "they are already powerful healers<i> and </i>DPS." </blockquote> As someone who played a Fury from 1-70 (w/ 90 AA), then betrayed over to a Warden, I will 110% agree!  In addition to the points already raised, Furies now get the AA root on top of all the rest.  Any way, wizards need more luving than wardens or fury nerfs!  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[lilmohi]

<cite>Orthureon wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Haha I love it when Furies complain. You can heal way more than an Inquisitor, for about the same power, shorter cast time and more heals. Your nukes do WAYYY more than ours do, you have higher avoidaince and with good buffs you can buff the crap out of int. All we get is slightly better mit (thanks to the "curve"<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> and some CA conversions that can miss constantly because other classes have high avoidaince, oh yeah and we have uber low avoidance. </p><p>Druids should not cry your class is very powerful. I beta buffed an Inquis and Fury on test to see the difference and omg I almost started crying when I saw how much more you can heal than us and how much quicker. I went underwater and started drowning and healed I lasted for about 4 minutes underwater with the constant damage that is done from drowning before I ran out of power. And guess what I was at full health almost the entire time until I ran oom. Not saying you are gods, but you are very powerful classes with nothing to complain about, roll a Shaman if you want to cry.</p></blockquote> LoL my fury got stuck in the main mt group once on a raid.  Even doing nothing but chaining heals i was still doing good if i could parse even half what the mystic in the group was doing.  Of course that's the wonderful thing about wards vs regens.

[Orthureon]

<p>Yes but wards take forever to cast, Druids are definitely the more powerful healer class when it comes to PVP. Wards are without a doubt the most efficient means of healing in both PVP and PVE <b><u>IF</u></b> you can get them off lol. HoTs are the most reliable in PVP and Reactives come in last since someone can just autoattack away reactives with a few swings then start spamming CAs or spells.</p>

[Oakum]

Finilie@Runnyeye wrote: <blockquote><p>Cry me a river boy!</p><p>Wardens = defense and fury`s = offense!</p><p>Shouldnt THAT be the reason fury`s are "way" more offensive??</p><p>Always the whining and [I cannot control my vocabulary] that we dish out damage but if you actualy played the frigin class you would see that: IT COMES AT A COST AND TO REALY DO SOME NICE DAMAGE FURY`S ARE DOING 50% LESS HEALING!</p><p>Why oh why are all these posts made by people who dont know [I cannot control my vocabulary] about one class and only see the green part huh??</p><p>Yes you are being dramatic so if you think its all sooooo unfair just go and role yourself a fury to see how fekin balanced we actualy are!</p><p>Its amazing how totaly ignorant you people can be....</p></blockquote><p>There is part of this post that is correct. Fury's do dps at the expense of healing. </p><p>Now of course you have to realize that wardens can't heal and dps at the same time either and wardens can go through power as fast as a fury nuking while meleeing. </p><p>Now the warden being "defensive"  is at best, correct in self buffs only. The wis buff is worthless with diminishing returns so does not add anything to a mt group. The other healers like it though. One of the reasons wardens are in the MT group is to buff other priest power by a couple of hunderd. </p><p>The single target power buff the fury has also but int instead of wisdom. Of course int will buff any proc buffs put on the mt by the other healers so it looks like they can be good healer buffers too if they didn't actually have a use besides healing like wardens, lol. </p><p>If you had ever played a warden (and i have played with my daughters fury alt some and know and dug deep through all the fury/warden spells since DoF) you would know that the only way wardens are truly more defensive then fury's is the warden self mit buff which can only be cast on ourselves. Individually wardens are slightly more defensive then fury's and fury's should be able to do a LITTLE MORE damge then wardens and they had it balanced pretty good after dof and before kos.</p><p>In groups its more accurate to say that the fury and warden group defensive buffs are different but roughly equal.  Both have a DS, both buff the same mit and elemental, both cure different effects. Wardens have genisis which transfers a minisule amount of power and a small regen to the target while stunning the warden. The fury has urchin which increases mit by a substantial amount while the fury is stunned. The warden spores can heal a couple of hundred more if target is below 50% health, the fury back into the fray spell heals, what is it, a thousand or more damage if the target is below 50% health. The spores can proc more often then BiTF can be cast though with a lucky RNG streak. </p><p>On the offensive side though, fury's buff about dps about 10 times better then wardens do for dps. Wardens can only do one dps buff for one player. Fury's can buff the entire group for dps plus heal spike damage better. Their groups just have to wait a hair longer between fights to get power back is all or use mana regen items more is all.</p><p> Well, now that I answered this post, I have to wonder who the last line was directed at. My guess is him/her self but I could be wrong. It might be an imaginary friend or something of the poster.  </p>

[Veedublya]

<p>Wardens do need some lovin, there is no if's, and's or but's about it...</p><p>First off... i think the whole wardens = defensive, and furies = offensive thing needs to be dropped and re-named... because there are only 2 things "defensive" about a warden, 1) sandstorm/duststorm and 2) Self Mit buff AA spec'd, those 2 thigns are hardly enough for us to be considered defensive... Instead it needs to be warden = melee druid and fury = caster druid...</p><p>Atm wardens fall extremely short to furies on dps. I temporarily melee spec'd my warden and did an avg of about 600-800 dps (about 600 str), my RL friend has a dps spec'd fury that can easily parse 1500-1700 dps. Either way you wanna argue it, druids are dps healers, they should be somewhat close on dps capabilities. It comes down to warden = melee and fury = caster, not one as "defensive" and one as "offensive".  The ranger and assassin analogy is a perfect example of warden/fury dps.</p><p>Also, the whole "furies cant heal as good as warden's" arguement is complete BS. Furies can heal just as well as wardens, I have furies in my guild that can parse (heal) right below me, the only reason why people think they cant heal as well is because furies have the option to nuke like a wizard so they do instead of healing. Warden's dont have that dps option so they sit there waiting for the MT's health to drop a sliver so they can heal something.</p><p>As for buffs, Furies definately have nicer buffs and a solid place in raids because of it. Because of furies high int buffs they always have a secure spot in the caster group. As a warden i find myself bouncing all over the place from MT grp, to OT grp, to melee dps grp. Now since wardens are a melee druid they should have a place in the melee dps grp, just as a fury is a caster and has a solid spot in the caster dps group. But because of wardens poor buffs they provide nothing to up their own melee dps or the grps, except for the one lucky person who gets Primative Instinct.</p><p>Im not screaming for furies to get nerfed, nor am i asking for wardens to dps 1500-1700, but some sort of help for our own dps and decent utility buff for melee dps grp would be nice.</p><p>Suggested changes that are not overpowering:</p><p>1) Change Aspect of the Hawk from a WIS/Power buf to a STR/Power buff... asking this is by no means overpowering because furies have Ferine Vim which ups their INT by 109 since they are caster druids, so asking for some STR to up our dps a little bit is completely fair since we are melee druid. And because of the int buff they go with casters to up their dps, it would be nice to offer some str for melee group.</p><p>2) Primitive Instinct should be changed from a single target +65 Crush/slash/pierce to a group version that buffs 30(ish) to crush/slashing/piercing, once again nothing overpowering but offers a little utility to our melee grp.</p>

[netman]

<p>I'm sorry, but i don't want to be a "DPS druid", or "a melee druid" : i want to be a defensive druid, because it's the heart of the warden, and my gameplay since november 04'.  It want to be really useful in raid with my heals and with my utils, not a sort of jack of all trade of healing <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I'm happy for Furies who parse 1,5k+ dps, it's good for them, and it's good for us. So, Furies have their identity and their position in raid. The wardens  don't. </p>

[Veedublya]

Renarde@Storms wrote: <blockquote><p>I'm sorry, but i don't want to be a "DPS druid", or "a melee druid" : i want to be a defensive druid, because it's the heart of the warden, and my gameplay since november 04'.  It want to be really useful in raid with my heals and with my utils, not a sort of jack of all trade of healing <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote><p> Well we are useful in raids for heals, but we lack utility. Those changes are not gonna change our "defensive" aspect, it will give us more utility so we can say we actually have some useful ones. </p><p>Keep in mind im suggesting these without even being melee spec'd! I'm not asking for these changes tp up my dps or to become a melee dps druid, im asking for these changes so i have something to offer my group!</p>

[Pimpfrog]

Renarde@Storms wrote: <blockquote><p>I'm sorry, but i don't want to be a "DPS druid", or "a melee druid" : i want to be a defensive druid, because it's the heart of the warden, and my gameplay since november 04'.  It want to be really useful in raid with my heals and with my utils, not a sort of jack of all trade of healing <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I'm happy for Furies who parse 1,5k+ dps, it's good for them, and it's good for us. So, Furies have their identity and their position in raid. The wardens  don't. </p></blockquote> Thats crazy talk. Druids are offensive, always have been. It is what they are known for. And for some reason you are happy that Furies have an identity and a position in the raid and Wardens dont. You sound like a Fury pretending to be a warden. lol

[netman]

<cite>Veedublya wrote:</cite><blockquote>Renarde@Storms wrote: <blockquote><p>I'm sorry, but i don't want to be a "DPS druid", or "a melee druid" : i want to be a defensive druid, because it's the heart of the warden, and my gameplay since november 04'.  It want to be really useful in raid with my heals and with my utils, not a sort of jack of all trade of healing <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote><p> Well we are useful in raids for heals, but we lack utility. Those changes are not gonna change our "defensive" aspect, it will give us more utility so we can say we actually have some useful ones. </p><p>Keep in mind im suggesting these without even being melee spec'd! I'm not asking for these changes tp up my dps or to become a melee dps druid, im asking for these changes so i have something to offer my group!</p></blockquote><p>I agree, our heal is ok, it's a very good one. But, today it's not enough to be really useful. Stop me if i'm wrong, but buffing  scout group is usually the job of inqui, isn't it ? </p><p>Pimpfrog, yes we dps more than the templar solo, but in raid, it's a pity for a healer, to dps most of time because there is nothing else to do.</p><p>To my mind, warden are not useless in raid, but not enough useful as healer, as utility or defensive healer <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Veedublya]

Renarde@Storms wrote: <blockquote><p>I agree, our heal is ok, it's a very good one. But, today it's not enough to be really useful. Stop me if i'm wrong, but buffing  scout group is usually the job of inqui, isn't it ? </p><p>Pimpfrog, yes we dps more than the templar solo, but in raid, it's a pity for a healer, to dps most of time because there is nothing else to do.</p><p>To my mind, warden are not useless in raid, but not enough useful as healer, as utility or defensive healer <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote><p>Yes an inquisitor does fit nicely into a scout grp, but so should a warden. Only prob with only having an inquisitor in the grp is that sometimes they grp heals are not able to keep up with AE's since scouts are not ranging. </p><p>We just need to bring something to the table, atm only healing is it.... Some nice buffs is not asking much or over powering </p>

[netman]

<p>In this case, fury is the best choice, with INT group buff & Agitate ? </p><p>It's better than warden's primitive instict and useless agi group buff </p><p>Ok i'm little bit pessimist about wardens <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. They were the best third healer in the MT group. But today, there is no need of a third healer in most case, for healing purpose. And our buff are not enough useful to justify the exchange coercer/assassin/swashy to warden. Warden is the best alt for a DPS who can use it during a raid, for a limited help... sometimes <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p><p> <span style="font-size: xx-small">Edit   : sorry, i try to be understood, english isn't my native tongue  <img src="/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span></p>

[Veedublya]

Renarde@Storms wrote: <blockquote><p>In this case, fury is the best choice, with INT group buff & Agitate ? </p><p>It's better than warden's primitive instict and useless agi group buff </p><p>Ok i'm little bit pessimist about wardens <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. They were the best third healer in the MT group. But today, there is no need of a third healer in most case, for healing purpose. And our buff are not enough useful to justify the exchange coercer/assassin/swashy to warden. Warden is the best alt for a DPS who can use it during a raid, for a limited help... sometimes <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p><p> <span style="font-size: xx-small">Edit   : sorry, i try to be understood, english isn't my native tongue  <img src="/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span></p></blockquote>Yes atm fury's do fit better than wardens in the melee grp, which is very unfortunate because like i've said they have a solid/wanted spot in the caster group because of their nice buffs. Wardens need a reason to be wanted in the melee dps group. Those changes i suggested will definately set us there w/o other healing classes complaining that we have become overpowered.

[iceriven2]

As a Warden the only thing we add to grps and raids is our healing.  Our buffs never meant anything.  Not a single buff we can provide adds anything needed.  But i know we been asking for buff changes to make us needed in some regard for years and SOE atm feels we are fine or not broken enough to merit a change.  Any hope we may have i think will be in kunark and the new spells  we get with the lvl increase.  So to any Wardens that get in Beta FIGHT for some GOOD BUFFS!!!

[IA~CHAOS]

I would say that we are a desired healer in the MT group.  Yes fury's do have the one up on us, they are a stronger class, period.  But In the MT grp I think we have a solid spot.  While in the MT grp we have the agi/wis which is better then int/wis for tank.  We have resists on our mit buff, once again better then fury.  Basically we are there to keep the other cleric and shaman alive and buff the tank during spikes.  We are hella good on the cures as our cast timers a short , I always hit sandstorm and the tree which top everyone off after hearts / mana stones.  Our tank rocks and through memblurs and more has kept agro with a raid doing 24-30k dps so I would say we are some good healers and better then fury for one grp out of 4 <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  But if the same player played a fury and a warden, the fury would be the dominate.