To anyone who's confused about the aggro management nerfs...

[MadLordOfMilk]

How often does a good tank lose aggro? Never? I've seen people pull 4k+ raid dps without the MT losing aggro; doesn't happen a lot, but it does come up. Obviously, SOE wants to reintroduce a challenge to the game.... many classes can go insane and never have a chance at pulling aggro outside of spike dps classes. For t1 classes, if hate is such a non-issue that a deaggro line is seen as completely worthless (most people act as though it should never be taken in any situation and sucks)... err... something needs to be fixed.

[Flipmode]

<p>Absolute hogwash.  Dont try to justify this nerf.  Assassins and swashy could go all out and top the parse never fearing about their hate.  Poor wizzys and warlocks were ALWAYS conscious that thye next spell they could die.  Big reason for that is the screwed up hate generation and lack of good deagrro skills.  They were already held back from their full potential by aggro worries and now SOE adds to it?  Unbelieveable.  </p><p>My hats off to you Lyndro.  I didnt think you could [Removed for Content] this game up anymore than your "control" revamp [Removed for Content] many classes.  My question to you is why dont you just come out and nerf us with a straight face.  Why try to act like you are giving us something?  Like you gave encs useful crowd control in raids.  Give me a break.  You nerfed our control spells hand over fist and used us as a scapegoat to do it to all classes.  Now you say you are making our AAs more useful, while simultaneously nerfing most of the good lines, and hitting other unrelated abilies in the process.  Let me spell it out for you so you understand....NERFING OUR GOOD LINES OF AAS DOES NOT MAKE THE CRAPPY ONES LOOK BETTER BY COMPARISON.  Hope that was clear enough.  And for [Removed for Content]'s sake leave [Removed for Content] that isnt broken alone.</p>

[TheStateFish]

<p>I see things another way...</p><p>The expansion is looming, and spell upgrades are headed our way. Tanks currently hold aggro relatively well, excepting multiple mob encounters, and with upgrades coming for everyone's deaggro spells we are either looking at some classes nearing 50% deaggro self buffed if left as is. </p><p>While I may not agree with the nerf in its current form, and it will loosen aggro quite a lot until we all hit level 80, it is necessary once we do get spell upgrades to scale things in a way that challenge remains at the new level cap. </p>

[Ravaan]

<p>well if they want to add challenge we could make tanks wear no armor, have scouts use thier bare hands and mages melee.</p><p>that would add a lot of challenge to the game ...</p><p>however sometimes doing something stupid to change the game is just that ... stupid.</p>

[iceriven2]

Sorcerers are still doomed.  We got kicked in the butt BIG this update.  Reduce the effectives of our Best AA line which agree is understandable if the other lines that were suppose to be buff were , well.....buffed to where you will actually be interested in taking it,  but the Int line still not worth the DPS reduction.   Theres no way around the fact our dps was nerfed by the AA nerf then nerfed again cuase sorcerers DEPEND on AT LEAST 5 Classes  for agro control.  Even then we can't  aoe effectivly.  well played dpsing sorcerer can pull agro with a dirge, rogue, coercer in mt grp and a troub and illy in there grp and then on top of that each chanter placing there hate reduction spell on you.  YUP we can still pull agro aoeing with all that.   To make matters worse the AA line that was nerfed to allow us to have a weapon in it...only applies to a 2 hander....no symbols allowed STILL! Whats the purpose for that??  In the end we where nerfed and got nothin for it.

[MadLordOfMilk]

Well, OK, Sorcerers are a bit [Removed for Content] - but as far as all the Rangers, Assassins, Brigands, Swashies, etc etc etc complaining, my point stands. But anyway, if hate is holding you back from your full potential... how is unusable DPS better than a hate reduction line? That's what's confusing to me.

[Darian]

They seem to keep doing this, they make new spells or skills then nerf them then release a expansion pack that brings them back to where they were before, then just keep repeating the cycle.

[Naglfar]

<p>Thanks Kraaj !</p><p>The more I'm reading the forum, the more I think nobody wants challenge. Nobody has realised how easy is EQ2 ?</p><p>EQ2 content is a joke, except EoF raids (until they'll be nerfed...)</p><p>And people are still complaining <img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Hellswrath]

Kraaj@Everfrost wrote: <blockquote>Well, OK, Sorcerers are a bit [Removed for Content] - but as far as all the Rangers, Assassins, Brigands, Swashies, etc etc etc complaining, my point stands. But anyway, if hate is holding you back from your full potential... how is unusable DPS better than a hate reduction line? That's what's confusing to me. </blockquote><p> Because as it stands now, the wisdom AA line gives us enough of a boost in damage to remain a T1 dps class.  However, as a sorc, we do not have nearly the deaggro ability (or aggro management if you prefer) of any other dps classes.  This means that we have to come closer to drawing aggro in order to match the dps other classes are putting out.  This goes double for warlocks because of their focus on encounter dps.  Thus, by nerfing the wisdom line, they are making it that much more difficult to remain T1 dps, while making another line easier for us to manage our aggro, but making it impossible to keep up with other classes that STILL have better aggro control even after being nerfed.</p><p>Basically Kraaj, we were already riding the thin line of dps vs. aggro.  This change unbalances that.  It is a nerf for anyone who counted on wisdom for the damage it provided to keep them near the top of the parse.  The reason no one will take int is because while other classes can spend their AA to improve their damage or abilities and rely on their built in class abilities to deal with aggro, sorcs find themselves forced to go dps spec on their AA to keep up, but do not have the same base aggro management.  Thus we <i>could</i> go int line, but would be giving up on staying T1.</p><p>I'm not saying all the changes were bad.  Quite the contrary.  However, they really need to put Brainstorm back up another 3%.  That would account for the ~1% increase in damage we will see due to the extra 30 int (an optimistic number this is more of a raid gear number) from equiping another symbol in our secondary slot.  This would still be a nerf when considering during a raid our int goes so high that that int bonus is worthless.  However, it would be balanced for the rest of the players in the game.</p>

[Leucippus]

Assuming I copied them correctly, the posted wizard changes are here: Starter - Summon Familiar: The type of familiar is no longer determined by weapon; Instead it is determined by casting a different ability. Stamina 2 - Static Shield: Removed first rank parry bonus, but no longer requires a symbol. Stamina 3 - Battlemage Armor: Increased physical mitigation bonus. Stamina 4 - Battlemage's Fervor: Also increases Subjugation and Ordination skill. Stamina 5 - Manashield: Improved damage to mana consumed ratio from 1:1 to 2:1. Wisdom 2 - Freehand Sorcery: No longer requires no weapon equipped, but reduced bonus to begin at 10% at rank 1. However now it stacks with Brainstorm and other spell damage increase achievements. Wisdom 3 - Ward of Sages: No longer requires no weapon equipped. Only protects against non-physical damage. Wisdom 4 - Brainstorm: No longer requires no weapon equipped, but reduced bonus to 0.5% per rank. However now it stacks with Freehand Sorcery and other spell damage increase achievements. Wisdom 5 - Sagacity: Effect stacks with other achievements that reduce power cost. Intelligence 2 - Confounding Staff: Renamed Confounding: Also added ranged distance of 35 meters to attack using your weapon. Intelligence 4 - Kinetic Avoidance: Hate percent reduction improved from 1.25% to 2%. Intelligence 5 - Concussive Blast: Spell is now an area effect that instantly drops hate position instead of adding a hate reduction proc. Notice the wisdom line no longer requires the secondary slot be empty. If it  is not working that way now on test, then the situation is surely a bug, and perh aps those complaining most should create a charact er on test and /bug it. Not requiring an empty inventory slot will boose dps somewhat, so you could be certain there was going to be some adjustment to the wisdom line. One thing people might want to realize is that the line was called "free hand socery". By that name's description, 2 handed weapons should NEVER have been allowed with that AA line. However, if that situation were the case then one could not have used the strength (100% critical final AA ability) line. I suspect the devs let that situation exist to allow wizards and warlocks to pick the wisdom / strength combo if they wanted. My point in meantioning that situation is this: if you are a wizard / warlock and were using a 2 handed staff with the wisdom line, and are now upset that you did not get another inventory slot, then oh well, you do not have my sympathy. 2 handed staff users should not have been able to use the strength line in the first place. It still remains to be seen if the wisdom changes are actually a nerf or not. If there descriptions are correct, then there may be no nerf at all. The dps may be the same before and after the change. However, if the game was not working as intended, and people were taking advantage of the situation, then I suspect dps may drop slightly, and it will be a slight drop. Even if it were a 4% drop to base spell damage, proc damage and the like will still remain the same. Although, I suspect the absolute highest peak damage will drop, the average damage may or may not drop, whic h may be a good thing. It is nice the devs did not forget about our familar. I was concered the familar's current weapon requirement would still force us into using a particular weapon. Notice the INT line now gives us some nice aggro reduction. Also, depending on its recast (and the ability to be queued in a macro), the new final IN T line AA ability, concussive blast, may be an extradorinarly nice spell. I would not be surprised if that spell is nerfed, badly, before it goes live. In case somone is interested, I use the agility and stamina lines currently. Agility was untouched, stamina was boosted. (Although, I can not figure out what is meant by "removed 1st rank parry bounus"; one always will have that skill at rank 4 at least.). Not all wizards use the wisdom line. Also, I may switch AA lines from stamina to intelligence after this change, depending on how that last intelligence ability turns out. (I do not have the final stamina ability, and even the 2:1 damage to power ratio is not enough to convince me to take that line, but it is closer 3:1 or 4:1 maybe, 5:1 hmm, 6:1 or higher, then the devs would just be being silly.) On scout aggro, I guess I am not the only one that was wondering why scouts can generally both out dps mages and not pull aggro. I was not surprised to see this nerf. Although, the changes to hate transfer are going to make things interesting for a while; mages were living on scout's after all. -Leucippus 70 wizard, 100 AA mistmoore P.S. To those wizards that have the nerve to (1) complain that the spell Surging Tempest "steals" your free hand socery / critical hit ability before this patch, then (2) use Surging Tempest as an example of how you were nerfed, it is time for you to be quite. Complaining in such a way will not get us the appropriate attention. (a different thread, but I intend to only post once)

[Freliant]

<p>Personally, I don't like change, but that is the only constant in life. As for people crying for the rescent agro changes... scouts never had to worry about getting agro, even being T1 dps classes... now they do, like the rest of us. As for wizzy's complaining about the change in their dps, int seems to be the way to go... They actually are making it Viable to do Fusion. As long as you are willing to risk getting hit by an AoE, you can go up to a mob, do Freehand Fusion, and quickly follow it with a Queued Concussion. That allows you to spike your damage and still remain under the mobs radar.</p><p>Granted, within the right setup some of us could do that anyways, but lets adjust and see how things work out now.</p>

[Hellswrath]

<cite>Leucippus wrote:</cite><blockquote>Not requiring an empty inventory slot will boose dps somewhat, so you could be certain there was going to be some adjustment to the wisdom line. One thing people might want to realize is that the line was called "free hand socery". By that name's description, 2 handed weapons should NEVER have been allowed with that AA line. However, if that situation were the case then one could not have used the strength (100% critical final AA ability) line. I suspect the devs let that situation exist to allow wizards and warlocks to pick the wisdom / strength combo if they wanted. My point in meantioning that situation is this: if you are a wizard / warlock and were using a 2 handed staff with the wisdom line, and are now upset that you did not get another inventory slot, then oh well, you do not have my sympathy. 2 handed staff users should not have been able to use the strength line in the first place. Even if it were a 4% drop to base spell damage, proc damage and the like will still remain the same. Although, I suspect the absolute highest peak damage will drop, the average damage may or may not drop, whic h may be a good thing. It is nice the devs did not forget about our familar. I was concered the familar's current weapon requirement would still force us into using a particular weapon. Notice the INT line now gives us some nice aggro reduction. Also, depending on its recast (and the ability to be queued in a macro), the new final IN T line AA ability, concussive blast, may be an extradorinarly nice spell. I would not be surprised if that spell is nerfed, badly, before it goes live. In case somone is interested, I use the agility and stamina lines currently. Agility was untouched, stamina was boosted. (Although, I can not figure out what is meant by "removed 1st rank parry bounus"; one always will have that skill at rank 4 at least.). Not all wizards use the wisdom line. Also, I may switch AA lines from stamina to intelligence after this change, depending on how that last intelligence ability turns out. (I do not have the final stamina ability, and even the 2:1 damage to power ratio is not enough to convince me to take that line, but it is closer 3:1 or 4:1 maybe, 5:1 hmm, 6:1 or higher, then the devs would just be being silly.) On scout aggro, I guess I am not the only one that was wondering why scouts can generally both out dps mages and not pull aggro. I was not surprised to see this nerf. Although, the changes to hate transfer are going to make things interesting for a while; mages were living on scout's after all. -Leucippus 70 wizard, 100 AA mistmoore P.S. To those wizards that have the nerve to (1) complain that the spell Surging Tempest "steals" your free hand socery / critical hit ability before this patch, then (2) use Surging Tempest as an example of how you were nerfed, it is time for you to be quite. Complaining in such a way will not get us the appropriate attention. (a different thread, but I intend to only post once) </blockquote><p> I agree some adjustment for dps needed to be made with the wisdom line, but they overcompensated by at least 3%.  </p><p>2 Handed staffs have never been allowed to work with FHS or any other portion of the wisdom line and there is no requirement for the weapon on the strength line except for the second ability (which requires a 2 hand staff btw), so I have NO idea what this paragraph is based on.  Check your info again.</p><p>What does proc damage have to do with this?  It is based off item level and mob level/resists.  Not to mention that proc damage is a small % of total dps, whereas base damage affects the large majority of it.</p><p>As far as your scout comments, I agree.  However, they are creating other problems with this.  I also agree about the familiar and the int line.  However, you state that you are using the stamina line.  That focuses your character more on surviveability than damage, which means you aren't as concerned about your damage as the typical high end player.  If you are currently stamina and raiding, then you might be better off with the int line.</p>

[Leucippus]

Hellswrath@Blackburrow wrote: <blockquote><cite>Leucippus wrote:</cite><blockquote>Not requiring an empty inventory slot will boose dps somewhat, so you could be certain there was going to be some adjustment to the wisdom line. One thing people might want to realize is that the line was called "free hand socery". By that name's description, 2 handed weapons should NEVER have been allowed with that AA line. However, if that situation were the case then one could not have used the strength (100% critical final AA ability) line. I suspect the devs let that situation exist to allow wizards and warlocks to pick the wisdom / strength combo if they wanted. My point in meantioning that situation is this: if you are a wizard / warlock and were using a 2 handed staff with the wisdom line, and are now upset that you did not get another inventory slot, then oh well, you do not have my sympathy. 2 handed staff users should not have been able to use the strength line in the first place. Even if it were a 4% drop to base spell damage, proc damage and the like will still remain the same. Although, I suspect the absolute highest peak damage will drop, the average damage may or may not drop, whic h may be a good thing. It is nice the devs did not forget about our familar. I was concered the familar's current weapon requirement would still force us into using a particular weapon. Notice the INT line now gives us some nice aggro reduction. Also, depending on its recast (and the ability to be queued in a macro), the new final IN T line AA ability, concussive blast, may be an extradorinarly nice spell. I would not be surprised if that spell is nerfed, badly, before it goes live. In case somone is interested, I use the agility and stamina lines currently. Agility was untouched, stamina was boosted. (Although, I can not figure out what is meant by "removed 1st rank parry bounus"; one always will have that skill at rank 4 at least.). Not all wizards use the wisdom line. Also, I may switch AA lines from stamina to intelligence after this change, depending on how that last intelligence ability turns out. (I do not have the final stamina ability, and even the 2:1 damage to power ratio is not enough to convince me to take that line, but it is closer 3:1 or 4:1 maybe, 5:1 hmm, 6:1 or higher, then the devs would just be being silly.) On scout aggro, I guess I am not the only one that was wondering why scouts can generally both out dps mages and not pull aggro. I was not surprised to see this nerf. Although, the changes to hate transfer are going to make things interesting for a while; mages were living on scout's after all. -Leucippus 70 wizard, 100 AA mistmoore P.S. To those wizards that have the nerve to (1) complain that the spell Surging Tempest "steals" your free hand socery / critical hit ability before this patch, then (2) use Surging Tempest as an example of how you were nerfed, it is time for you to be quite. Complaining in such a way will not get us the appropriate attention. (a different thread, but I intend to only post once) </blockquote><p> I agree some adjustment for dps needed to be made with the wisdom line, but they overcompensated by at least 3%.  </p><p>2 Handed staffs have never been allowed to work with FHS or any other portion of the wisdom line and there is no requirement for the weapon on the strength line except for the second ability (which requires a 2 hand staff btw), so I have NO idea what this paragraph is based on.  Check your info again.</p><p>What does proc damage have to do with this?  It is based off item level and mob level/resists.  Not to mention that proc damage is a small % of total dps, whereas base damage affects the large majority of it.</p><p>As far as your scout comments, I agree.  However, they are creating other problems with this.  I also agree about the familiar and the int line.  However, you state that you are using the stamina line.  That focuses your character more on surviveability than damage, which means you aren't as concerned about your damage as the typical high end player.  If you are currently stamina and raiding, then you might be better off with the int line.</p></blockquote> I checked on the 2 handed requirement for the wisdom line. You are correct. A 2-handed staff is not allowed. I was assuming the reason people were complaining so loudly was because if you were using a 2-handed staff with the wisdom line, then the change allowing you to equip something in the secondary slot would have had no effect on a toon using such a weapon. I was under the impression you needed to have the appropriate weapon requirements met for any ability in an AA tree. However, I just checked, and you ar e again correct! I am certain I remember the devs  saying (way back when, before KoS was released) you needed to meet the weapon requirements for a p articular tree, but that is not the case!  It seem s the familar is the  limiting factor on socerer weapon choice. (Why would a socerer care about an AA ability's melee effect? I do not know.) (i.e. I can get my cast rate increase, and recast decrease with both a wand and a dagger currently! The agility tree is a dagger tree.) (I was under the impression one had to have a 2H staff equiped for the last ability in the STR tree to work; that impression is false!) Proc damage is part of a socerer's total dps. So, if spell dps is reduced by 4%, then total dps will not be reduced by 4% because the proc damage is unaffected. (even if it means the difference between 4% and 3.9%, with how nit picky some people are being with numbers, they should take the constant proc damage into consideration.) As a somewhat related note, I might be able to see the symbol slot being usable giving a 1% boost to dps now, but not 4%. Something is definitely up with the wisdom AA  line changes; maybe damage was just shifted, maybe  it is a nerf. I have no way of telling. This post is so off-topic to the threads title I suspect... -Leucippus

[Bright_Morn]

<cite>Leucippus wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hellswrath@Blackburrow wrote: <blockquote><cite>Leucippus wrote:</cite><blockquote>Not requiring an empty inventory slot will boose dps somewhat, so you could be certain there was going to be some adjustment to the wisdom line. One thing people might want to realize is that the line was called "free hand socery". By that name's description, 2 handed weapons should NEVER have been allowed with that AA line. However, if that situation were the case then one could not have used the strength (100% critical final AA ability) line. I suspect the devs let that situation exist to allow wizards and warlocks to pick the wisdom / strength combo if they wanted. My point in meantioning that situation is this: if you are a wizard / warlock and were using a 2 handed staff with the wisdom line, and are now upset that you did not get another inventory slot, then oh well, you do not have my sympathy. 2 handed staff users should not have been able to use the strength line in the first place. Even if it were a 4% drop to base spell damage, proc damage and the like will still remain the same. Although, I suspect the absolute highest peak damage will drop, the average damage may or may not drop, whic h may be a good thing. It is nice the devs did not forget about our familar. I was concered the familar's current weapon requirement would still force us into using a particular weapon. Notice the INT line now gives us some nice aggro reduction. Also, depending on its recast (and the ability to be queued in a macro), the new final IN T line AA ability, concussive blast, may be an extradorinarly nice spell. I would not be surprised if that spell is nerfed, badly, before it goes live. In case somone is interested, I use the agility and stamina lines currently. Agility was untouched, stamina was boosted. (Although, I can not figure out what is meant by "removed 1st rank parry bounus"; one always will have that skill at rank 4 at least.). Not all wizards use the wisdom line. Also, I may switch AA lines from stamina to intelligence after this change, depending on how that last intelligence ability turns out. (I do not have the final stamina ability, and even the 2:1 damage to power ratio is not enough to convince me to take that line, but it is closer 3:1 or 4:1 maybe, 5:1 hmm, 6:1 or higher, then the devs would just be being silly.) On scout aggro, I guess I am not the only one that was wondering why scouts can generally both out dps mages and not pull aggro. I was not surprised to see this nerf. Although, the changes to hate transfer are going to make things interesting for a while; mages were living on scout's after all. -Leucippus 70 wizard, 100 AA mistmoore P.S. To those wizards that have the nerve to (1) complain that the spell Surging Tempest "steals" your free hand socery / critical hit ability before this patch, then (2) use Surging Tempest as an example of how you were nerfed, it is time for you to be quite. Complaining in such a way will not get us the appropriate attention. (a different thread, but I intend to only post once) </blockquote><p> I agree some adjustment for dps needed to be made with the wisdom line, but they overcompensated by at least 3%.  </p><p>2 Handed staffs have never been allowed to work with FHS or any other portion of the wisdom line and there is no requirement for the weapon on the strength line except for the second ability (which requires a 2 hand staff btw), so I have NO idea what this paragraph is based on.  Check your info again.</p><p>What does proc damage have to do with this?  It is based off item level and mob level/resists.  Not to mention that proc damage is a small % of total dps, whereas base damage affects the large majority of it.</p><p>As far as your scout comments, I agree.  However, they are creating other problems with this.  I also agree about the familiar and the int line.  However, you state that you are using the stamina line.  That focuses your character more on surviveability than damage, which means you aren't as concerned about your damage as the typical high end player.  If you are currently stamina and raiding, then you might be better off with the int line.</p></blockquote> I checked on the 2 handed requirement for the wisdom line. You are correct. A 2-handed staff is not allowed. I was assuming the reason people were complaining so loudly was because if you were using a 2-handed staff with the wisdom line, then the change allowing you to equip something in the secondary slot would have had no effect on a toon using such a weapon. I was under the impression you needed to have the appropriate weapon requirements met for any ability in an AA tree. However, I just checked, and you ar e again correct! I am certain I remember the devs  saying (way back when, before KoS was released) you needed to meet the weapon requirements for a p articular tree, but that is not the case!  It seem s the familar is the  limiting factor on socerer weapon choice. (Why would a socerer care about an AA ability's melee effect? I do not know.) (i.e. I can get my cast rate increase, and recast decrease with both a wand and a dagger currently! The agility tree is a dagger tree.) (I was under the impression one had to have a 2H staff equiped for the last ability in the STR tree to work; that impression is false!) Proc damage is part of a socerer's total dps. So, if spell dps is reduced by 4%, then total dps will not be reduced by 4% because the proc damage is unaffected. (even if it means the difference between 4% and 3.9%, with how nit picky some people are being with numbers, they should take the constant proc damage into consideration.) As a somewhat related note, I might be able to see the symbol slot being usable giving a 1% boost to dps now, but not 4%. Something is definitely up with the wisdom AA  line changes; maybe damage was just shifted, maybe  it is a nerf. I have no way of telling. This post is so off-topic to the threads title I suspect... -Leucippus </blockquote>The familiar is also NOT a factor.  This is because if you have a 2-hander equipped when you cast the spell (or zone) you get the critical bonus pet, and still RETAIN it when you switch to any other weapon type (unless you zone).  So all they did was make it easier to pick which type of bonus you want to get.  This change is a straight damage change there is not bonus or gain.  And proc damage is effected because that also scales with int and is increased by the 8% of Brain Storm as well!  To add to this there never was a stacking issue with Freehand Sorcery and Brainstorm, nor any other percentage based damage increase (except possibly Dark Orb of the Mind, dont have one to test). 

[Terrifier]

The aggro changes look worse than they really are. Last night on Test we <Unholy Trinity> cleared labs with just 3 groups and never had a single aggro issue. We ran with a Dirge in the MT group and the Assasin in the same group was parsing over 2k most fights. If you want the real low down on this change its all about your tank. They need to be set up for defensive and there should be no issue.

[Jaroth Cloudwalk]

<cite>Leucippus wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Assuming I copied them correctly, the posted wizard changes are here: Starter - Summon Familiar: The type of familiar is no longer determined by weapon; Instead it is determined by casting a different ability. Stamina 2 - Static Shield: Removed first rank parry bonus, but no longer requires a symbol. Stamina 3 - Battlemage Armor: Increased physical mitigation bonus. Stamina 4 - Battlemage's Fervor: Also increases Subjugation and Ordination skill. Stamina 5 - Manashield: Improved damage to mana consumed ratio from 1:1 to 2:1. Wisdom 2 - Freehand Sorcery: No longer requires no weapon equipped, but reduced bonus to begin at 10% at rank 1. However now it stacks with Brainstorm and other spell damage increase achievements. Wisdom 3 - Ward of Sages: No longer requires no weapon equipped. Only protects against non-physical damage. Wisdom 4 - Brainstorm: No longer requires no weapon equipped, but reduced bonus to 0.5% per rank. However now it stacks with Freehand Sorcery and other spell damage increase achievements. Wisdom 5 - Sagacity: Effect stacks with other achievements that reduce power cost. Intelligence 2 - Confounding Staff: Renamed Confounding: Also added ranged distance of 35 meters to attack using your weapon. Intelligence 4 - Kinetic Avoidance: Hate percent reduction improved from 1.25% to 2%. Intelligence 5 - Concussive Blast: Spell is now an area effect that instantly drops hate position instead of adding a hate reduction proc. <b>Notice the wisdom line no longer requires the secondary slot be empty</b>. If it is not working that way now on test, then the situation is surely a bug, and perh aps those complaining most should create a charact er on test and /bug it. -Leucippus 70 wizard, 100 AA mistmoore</p></blockquote><p>Show me where it says it doesn't have to be empty.  It only says that wielding a two handed weapon will not stop it from working, not that you will be able to put anything else in the slot. </p>

[Wrapye]

<cite>Terrifier wrote:</cite><blockquote>The aggro changes look worse than they really are. Last night on Test we <Unholy Trinity> cleared labs with just 3 groups and never had a single aggro issue. We ran with a Dirge in the MT group and the Assasin in the same group was parsing over 2k most fights. If you want the real low down on this change its all about your tank. They need to be set up for defensive and there should be no issue. </blockquote>There goes the use of a coercer in the MT group.

[Siclone]

<p>There was no need to nerf the coercer and the wizard and the warlock</p><p>What is ironic is that the nerf to the Assassin and Swashy hate, really wont effect them much, they can make up for it in other ways with de-agro ca's and poison</p><p>But it will effect wizards and warlocks allot more.  They will get nerfed more by scouts hate transfer being nerfed then the scouts themselves.  MT will get less hate on them, that equals easier to pull argo.  </p><p>HA HA...I think that is sort of funny, but then again I am not a wiz or warlock.  </p>

[Leucippus]

<cite>Bright_Morn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Leucippus wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hellswrath@Blackburrow wrote: <blockquote><cite>Leucippus wrote:</cite><blockquote>Not requiring an empty inventory slot will boose dps somewhat, so you could be certain there was going to be some adjustment to the wisdom line. One thing people might want to realize is that the line was called "free hand socery". By that name's description, 2 handed weapons should NEVER have been allowed with that AA line. However, if that situation were the case then one could not have used the strength (100% critical final AA ability) line. I suspect the devs let that situation exist to allow wizards and warlocks to pick the wisdom / strength combo if they wanted. My point in meantioning that situation is this: if you are a wizard / warlock and were using a 2 handed staff with the wisdom line, and are now upset that you did not get another inventory slot, then oh well, you do not have my sympathy. 2 handed staff users should not have been able to use the strength line in the first place. Even if it were a 4% drop to base spell damage, proc damage and the like will still remain the same. Although, I suspect the absolute highest peak damage will drop, the average damage may or may not drop, whic h may be a good thing. It is nice the devs did not forget about our familar. I was concered the familar's current weapon requirement would still force us into using a particular weapon. Notice the INT line now gives us some nice aggro reduction. Also, depending on its recast (and the ability to be queued in a macro), the new final IN T line AA ability, concussive blast, may be an extradorinarly nice spell. I would not be surprised if that spell is nerfed, badly, before it goes live. In case somone is interested, I use the agility and stamina lines currently. Agility was untouched, stamina was boosted. (Although, I can not figure out what is meant by "removed 1st rank parry bounus"; one always will have that skill at rank 4 at least.). Not all wizards use the wisdom line. Also, I may switch AA lines from stamina to intelligence after this change, depending on how that last intelligence ability turns out. (I do not have the final stamina ability, and even the 2:1 damage to power ratio is not enough to convince me to take that line, but it is closer 3:1 or 4:1 maybe, 5:1 hmm, 6:1 or higher, then the devs would just be being silly.) On scout aggro, I guess I am not the only one that was wondering why scouts can generally both out dps mages and not pull aggro. I was not surprised to see this nerf. Although, the changes to hate transfer are going to make things interesting for a while; mages were living on scout's after all. -Leucippus 70 wizard, 100 AA mistmoore P.S. To those wizards that have the nerve to (1) complain that the spell Surging Tempest "steals" your free hand socery / critical hit ability before this patch, then (2) use Surging Tempest as an example of how you were nerfed, it is time for you to be quite. Complaining in such a way will not get us the appropriate attention. (a different thread, but I intend to only post once) </blockquote><p> I agree some adjustment for dps needed to be made with the wisdom line, but they overcompensated by at least 3%.  </p><p>2 Handed staffs have never been allowed to work with FHS or any other portion of the wisdom line and there is no requirement for the weapon on the strength line except for the second ability (which requires a 2 hand staff btw), so I have NO idea what this paragraph is based on.  Check your info again.</p><p>What does proc damage have to do with this?  It is based off item level and mob level/resists.  Not to mention that proc damage is a small % of total dps, whereas base damage affects the large majority of it.</p><p>As far as your scout comments, I agree.  However, they are creating other problems with this.  I also agree about the familiar and the int line.  However, you state that you are using the stamina line.  That focuses your character more on surviveability than damage, which means you aren't as concerned about your damage as the typical high end player.  If you are currently stamina and raiding, then you might be better off with the int line.</p></blockquote> I checked on the 2 handed requirement for the wisdom line. You are correct. A 2-handed staff is not allowed. I was assuming the reason people were complaining so loudly was because if you were using a 2-handed staff with the wisdom line, then the change allowing you to equip something in the secondary slot would have had no effect on a toon using such a weapon. I was under the impression you needed to have the appropriate weapon requirements met for any ability in an AA tree. However, I just checked, and you ar e again correct! I am certain I remember the devs  saying (way back when, before KoS was released) you needed to meet the weapon requirements for a p articular tree, but that is not the case!  It seem s the familar is the  limiting factor on socerer weapon choice. (Why would a socerer care about an AA ability's melee effect? I do not know.) (i.e. I can get my cast rate increase, and recast decrease with both a wand and a dagger currently! The agility tree is a dagger tree.) (I was under the impression one had to have a 2H staff equiped for the last ability in the STR tree to work; that impression is false!) Proc damage is part of a socerer's total dps. So, if spell dps is reduced by 4%, then total dps will not be reduced by 4% because the proc damage is unaffected. (even if it means the difference between 4% and 3.9%, with how nit picky some people are being with numbers, they should take the constant proc damage into consideration.) As a somewhat related note, I might be able to see the symbol slot being usable giving a 1% boost to dps now, but not 4%. Something is definitely up with the wisdom AA  line changes; maybe damage was just shifted, maybe  it is a nerf. I have no way of telling. This post is so off-topic to the threads title I suspect... -Leucippus </blockquote>The familiar is also NOT a factor.  This is because if you have a 2-hander equipped when you cast the spell (or zone) you get the critical bonus pet, and still RETAIN it when you switch to any other weapon type (unless you zone).  So all they did was make it easier to pick which type of bonus you want to get.  This change is a straight damage change there is not bonus or gain.  And proc damage is effected because that also scales with int and is increased by the 8% of Brain Storm as well!  To add to this there never was a stacking issue with Freehand Sorcery and Brainstorm, nor any other percentage based damage increase (except possibly Dark Orb of the Mind, dont have one to test).  </blockquote>I do not use the wisdom line, so I can not check how it works currently, however... Check the familar again, as it is now on the live servers. The familar _used_ to work the way you describe (I remember doing just what you describe), but yesterday when I unequiped my dagger, my familar disappeared! Hopefully I am wrong, and can switch to a 1 handed staff I have. -Leucippus

[Leucippus]

<cite>Bright_Morn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Leucippus wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hellswrath@Blackburrow wrote: <blockquote><cite>Leucippus wrote:</cite><blockquote>Not requiring an empty inventory slot will boose dps somewhat, so you could be certain there was going to be some adjustment to the wisdom line. One thing people might want to realize is that the line was called "free hand socery". By that name's description, 2 handed weapons should NEVER have been allowed with that AA line. However, if that situation were the case then one could not have used the strength (100% critical final AA ability) line. I suspect the devs let that situation exist to allow wizards and warlocks to pick the wisdom / strength combo if they wanted. My point in meantioning that situation is this: if you are a wizard / warlock and were using a 2 handed staff with the wisdom line, and are now upset that you did not get another inventory slot, then oh well, you do not have my sympathy. 2 handed staff users should not have been able to use the strength line in the first place. Even if it were a 4% drop to base spell damage, proc damage and the like will still remain the same. Although, I suspect the absolute highest peak damage will drop, the average damage may or may not drop, whic h may be a good thing. It is nice the devs did not forget about our familar. I was concered the familar's current weapon requirement would still force us into using a particular weapon. Notice the INT line now gives us some nice aggro reduction. Also, depending on its recast (and the ability to be queued in a macro), the new final IN T line AA ability, concussive blast, may be an extradorinarly nice spell. I would not be surprised if that spell is nerfed, badly, before it goes live. In case somone is interested, I use the agility and stamina lines currently. Agility was untouched, stamina was boosted. (Although, I can not figure out what is meant by "removed 1st rank parry bounus"; one always will have that skill at rank 4 at least.). Not all wizards use the wisdom line. Also, I may switch AA lines from stamina to intelligence after this change, depending on how that last intelligence ability turns out. (I do not have the final stamina ability, and even the 2:1 damage to power ratio is not enough to convince me to take that line, but it is closer 3:1 or 4:1 maybe, 5:1 hmm, 6:1 or higher, then the devs would just be being silly.) On scout aggro, I guess I am not the only one that was wondering why scouts can generally both out dps mages and not pull aggro. I was not surprised to see this nerf. Although, the changes to hate transfer are going to make things interesting for a while; mages were living on scout's after all. -Leucippus 70 wizard, 100 AA mistmoore P.S. To those wizards that have the nerve to (1) complain that the spell Surging Tempest "steals" your free hand socery / critical hit ability before this patch, then (2) use Surging Tempest as an example of how you were nerfed, it is time for you to be quite. Complaining in such a way will not get us the appropriate attention. (a different thread, but I intend to only post once) </blockquote><p> I agree some adjustment for dps needed to be made with the wisdom line, but they overcompensated by at least 3%.  </p><p>2 Handed staffs have never been allowed to work with FHS or any other portion of the wisdom line and there is no requirement for the weapon on the strength line except for the second ability (which requires a 2 hand staff btw), so I have NO idea what this paragraph is based on.  Check your info again.</p><p>What does proc damage have to do with this?  It is based off item level and mob level/resists.  Not to mention that proc damage is a small % of total dps, whereas base damage affects the large majority of it.</p><p>As far as your scout comments, I agree.  However, they are creating other problems with this.  I also agree about the familiar and the int line.  However, you state that you are using the stamina line.  That focuses your character more on surviveability than damage, which means you aren't as concerned about your damage as the typical high end player.  If you are currently stamina and raiding, then you might be better off with the int line.</p></blockquote> I checked on the 2 handed requirement for the wisdom line. You are correct. A 2-handed staff is not allowed. I was assuming the reason people were complaining so loudly was because if you were using a 2-handed staff with the wisdom line, then the change allowing you to equip something in the secondary slot would have had no effect on a toon using such a weapon. I was under the impression you needed to have the appropriate weapon requirements met for any ability in an AA tree. However, I just checked, and you ar e again correct! I am certain I remember the devs  saying (way back when, before KoS was released) you needed to meet the weapon requirements for a p articular tree, but that is not the case!  It seem s the familar is the  limiting factor on socerer weapon choice. (Why would a socerer care about an AA ability's melee effect? I do not know.) (i.e. I can get my cast rate increase, and recast decrease with both a wand and a dagger currently! The agility tree is a dagger tree.) (I was under the impression one had to have a 2H staff equiped for the last ability in the STR tree to work; that impression is false!) Proc damage is part of a socerer's total dps. So, if spell dps is reduced by 4%, then total dps will not be reduced by 4% because the proc damage is unaffected. (even if it means the difference between 4% and 3.9%, with how nit picky some people are being with numbers, they should take the constant proc damage into consideration.) As a somewhat related note, I might be able to see the symbol slot being usable giving a 1% boost to dps now, but not 4%. Something is definitely up with the wisdom AA  line changes; maybe damage was just shifted, maybe  it is a nerf. I have no way of telling. This post is so off-topic to the threads title I suspect... -Leucippus </blockquote>The familiar is also NOT a factor.  This is because if you have a 2-hander equipped when you cast the spell (or zone) you get the critical bonus pet, and still RETAIN it when you switch to any other weapon type (unless you zone).  So all they did was make it easier to pick which type of bonus you want to get.  This change is a straight damage change there is not bonus or gain.  And proc damage is effected because that also scales with int and is increased by the 8% of Brain Storm as well!  To add to this there never was a stacking issue with Freehand Sorcery and Brainstorm, nor any other percentage based damage increase (except possibly Dark Orb of the Mind, dont have one to test).  </blockquote>I just checked the familar, again. It seems the poster is correct, image that, however .... If you switch weapons, for example have a dagger equiped, then equip a 1H staff, you keep the daggers pet. However, if you unequip the dagger (have no weapon equiped) then equip the 1H staff, you end up with no familar! When you unequip your weapon, the familar disappears; but, if you just switch weapons, you get to keep your familar! Something does not seem right there, even if I can now use my Wand of Crystalized Plasma instead of the Cold Blooded Blade and still keep (most of) the agility line's AA abilities. -Leucippus

[Hellswrath]

<cite>Leucippus wrote:</cite><blockquote> I just checked the familar, again. It seems the poster is correct, image that, however .... If you switch weapons, for example have a dagger equiped, then equip a 1H staff, you keep the daggers pet. However, if you unequip the dagger (have no weapon equiped) then equip the 1H staff, you end up with no familar! When you unequip your weapon, the familar disappears; but, if you just switch weapons, you get to keep your familar! Something does not seem right there, even if I can now use my Wand of Crystalized Plasma instead of the Cold Blooded Blade and still keep (most of) the agility line's AA abilities. -Leucippus </blockquote> There is another requirement on the spell, however, to fix that.  Even if you have the correct pet out, you will only get the appropriate bonus if you are still equipped with the associated weapon.  It's in the spell description.

[Ruut Li]

I think what SOE is trying to make us realise in their "subtle" little way is that sorcerers are for bot-farmers groups (pref loc PoF). If you want to play the game as a dps mage choose summoner. Saves ya lot of heartache <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Leucippus]

Hellswrath@Blackburrow wrote: <blockquote><cite>Leucippus wrote:</cite><blockquote> I just checked the familar, again. It seems the poster is correct, image that, however .... If you switch weapons, for example have a dagger equiped, then equip a 1H staff, you keep the daggers pet. However, if you unequip the dagger (have no weapon equiped) then equip the 1H staff, you end up with no familar! When you unequip your weapon, the familar disappears; but, if you just switch weapons, you get to keep your familar! Something does not seem right there, even if I can now use my Wand of Crystalized Plasma instead of the Cold Blooded Blade and still keep (most of) the agility line's AA abilities. -Leucippus </blockquote> There is another requirement on the spell, however, to fix that.  Even if you have the correct pet out, you will only get the appropriate bonus if you are still equipped with the associated weapon.  It's in the spell description.</blockquote>Perhaps that requirement is the way it is supposed to work, but it did not work that way when I checked just before that post. When I switched to my wand, from my dagger, and did not unequip the dagger first, the drake familar remained and my spell recast times did not change. (dagger has 2.0% recast time reduction, wand has 2.5% hate reduction I believe) -Leucippus

[Rijacki]

<cite>Wrapye wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Terrifier wrote:</cite><blockquote>The aggro changes look worse than they really are. Last night on Test we <Unholy Trinity> cleared labs with just 3 groups and never had a single aggro issue. We ran with a Dirge in the MT group and the Assasin in the same group was parsing over 2k most fights. If you want the real low down on this change its all about your tank. They need to be set up for defensive and there should be no issue. </blockquote>There goes the use of a coercer in the MT group. </blockquote> And a choice to have a dirge in that group on a mixed faction raid.

[TheGReddy]

Ruut Li wrote: <blockquote>I think what SOE is trying to make us realise in their "subtle" little way is that sorcerers are for bot-farmers groups (pref loc PoF). If you want to play the game as a dps mage choose summoner. Saves ya lot of heartache <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote><p> Yeah thats one of the reasons we sorcerers hate this nerf(and yes it is a nerf to most if not all raiding sorcerers). Sorcerers are supposed to be dealing tons of damge. Since the EoF came, summoners have been able to kick our butts on the parse. Its not really supposed to work that way. And making the Wisdom line's power cut in half is not gonna help that.</p><p>So now if i want a dps mage, id have to level up a level 1 summoner to level 70 and get a bunch of raid gear and get a bunch of AAs. So much for spending a couple years on a wizard just to realize if i wanted to, and i quote "unleash the purest forms of destruction by harnessing the arcane magics of fire and ice. Channeling the full force of these elements into deadly focus, no other type of mage is able to match the Wizards ability to inflict such great devestation upon a single target"(from the wizard professions section of everquest2.com)...I need a summoner.</p><p>Way to go SoE!</p>