PDA

View Full Version : A thought on improving Gameplay


Windowlicker
05-30-2007, 10:51 AM
<p>One major thing I've always been amazed to find missing from this game is proper hate generation from certain classes.</p><p>In Everquest 1, it was fairly easy to pull aggro by overhealing.  Heck, if you had *any* class you could eventually pull aggro from the tank if you started casting like crazy.  </p><p>In this game, this really isn't the case.  What we have here is a small number of classes that generate truckloads of hate, and the remaining classes that really have no care in the world.</p><p>So why isn't that fixed?  If there's a healer that's just kicking out the heals like crazy, why is that not generating enough hate to draw the mobs attention?  I see Scouts, Bards, even some Cloth casters that have absolutely no worry in the world when it comes to pulling aggro from the group.</p><p>Where is the challenge in that?</p><p>People complain this game is too easy, well perhaps this is part of the reason why.  It seems like right now the only item that can actually generate enough hate for you to consistantly pull aggro is raw damage coming from a single non-pet class.</p><p>Thoughts?</p>

Dasein
05-30-2007, 11:02 AM
First, healers can pull agro, especially early on if they pre-ward or use a reactice before the tank has a chance to get in some taunts. Second, the game is designed around the tank holding agro consistently - if too many classes can pull agro too easily, you might as well get rid of the tank as a class, at least in practice if not in terms of actual mechanics. Go with another DPS class, and bounce the mob while burning it down.

phoenixshard
05-30-2007, 11:06 AM
I've actually seen the opposite of what you are saying many times with a caster that nuked at the start and drew aggro off, as well as was mentioned above with the healers warding/reactive healing too soon, and scout classes dropping their biggest backstabs at the outset.

Windowlicker
05-30-2007, 11:07 AM
<cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote>First, healers can pull agro, especially early on if they pre-ward or use a reactice before the tank has a chance to get in some taunts. Second, the game is designed around the tank holding agro consistently - if too many classes can pull agro too easily, you might as well get rid of the tank as a class, at least in practice if not in terms of actual mechanics. Go with another DPS class, and bounce the mob while burning it down. </blockquote><p> Right, but really the only time they *can* pull aggro is if they pre-ward or use a reactive before the tank drops in some taunts.  So in other words, 99% of the time they're just mashing buttons and it's a snorefest.</p><p>EQ1 had the aggro system I'm talking about above.  What it resulted in was people that would pay *more* attention, knew their classes better .. and generally ended up paying attention more.</p><p>This game is far too slack on a large number of classes.  IMHO they need to add a bit more danger.</p><p>Edit: And ANYONE can pull aggro off the start.  I'm talking about making it a little more possible for some classes to pull it mid-fight.</p>

Windowlicker
05-30-2007, 11:22 AM
<p>As a rough example:</p><p>Berserker - Can take aggro at any point through DPS</p><p>Brusier - Can take aggro through dps, but generally won't</p><p>Guard - Likely won't take aggro through DPS</p><p>Monk - Can take aggro through dps, but generally won't</p><p>Pally - Won't take aggro unless they have Amends running on someone dumping a ton of hate</p><p>SK - Won't take aggro generally unless running Deathmarch</p><p>Coercer - Can take aggro if spec'd for dps, but 98% of players will not</p><p>Conj - Splits aggro between it and pet, generally will never take aggro</p><p>Illusionist - Generally will not take aggro</p><p>Necro - Splits aggro between it and pet, generally will not take aggro unless using lifeburn</p><p>Warlock - Wears aggro on every pull</p><p>Wizard - Wears aggro on every pull</p><p>Defiler - Can only take aggro off the pull typically (Pre-buffs)</p><p>Fury - Can only take aggro off the pull (Pre-Buffs)</p><p>Inquisitor - Can only take aggro off the pull  (Pre-Buffs)</p><p>Mystic - Can only take aggro off the pull (Pre-Buffs)</p><p>Templar - Can only take aggro off the pull (Pre-Buffs)</p><p>Warden - Can only take aggro off the pull (Pre-Buffs)</p><p>Assassin - Has a hate transfer, can take aggro but it's not a huge issue</p><p>Brigand - Can easily take aggro at almost any point in the fight</p><p>Dirge - Can take aggro off the pull, otherwise it never happens</p><p>Ranger - Almost never pulls hate (At least all the rangers I know have no problems with it)</p><p>Swash - Has a hate transfer, can take aggro but it's not as much of an issue</p><p>Troub - Can take aggro off the pull, otherwise it never happens.</p><p>So really what I'm getting at, is unless your one of a very select few classes .. there is almost NO danger to you whatsoever beyond the first second or two if any pull.  My point is more towards the fact this shouldn't be the case.  Every class should have *something* desirable that can potentially aggro that mob onto them.  It adds dimension to the gameplay.</p><p>I guess what I'm saying is, there are some classes that need a little more risk in the heat of battle.</p><p>Don't hold me to the lines above, I obviously don't play every class.  </p>

Beldin_
05-30-2007, 11:27 AM
<p>I must say, i don't miss the time where Druids, especially Wardens, pulled aggro like crazy, because their heals created aggro to themself, while all wards and reactives created aggro towards the target of the spell.  </p><p>So what do you want .. that the Healers should let the tank die to avoid pulling aggro ? </p><p>I think that all will not help really with the aggro-problems you may have with your warlock, you may only die more often because then the tanks will care primary about healers stealing aggro, and not about a warlock stealing aggro <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

azekah
05-30-2007, 11:28 AM
/disagree.... ie...if you have warlock/wiz/assn high dps type class that goes all out any time in the encounter, they can take aggro... Its a pretty simple equation if the tank's taunts + dps > others' dps or heal then they won't have problems holding aggro. I'm not sure how it's different in EQ1, perhaps the taunts are better? But I'm sure it is the same system there.

re1master
05-30-2007, 11:30 AM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote>First, healers can pull agro, especially early on if they pre-ward or use a reactice before the tank has a chance to get in some taunts. Second, the game is designed around the tank holding agro consistently - if too many classes can pull agro too easily, you might as well get rid of the tank as a class, at least in practice if not in terms of actual mechanics. Go with another DPS class, and bounce the mob while burning it down. </blockquote><p> Right, but really the only time they *can* pull aggro is if they pre-ward or use a reactive before the tank drops in some taunts.  So in other words, 99% of the time they're just mashing buttons and it's a snorefest.</p><p>EQ1 had the aggro system I'm talking about above.  What it resulted in was people that would pay *more* attention, knew their classes better .. and generally ended up paying attention more.</p><p>This game is far too slack on a large number of classes.  IMHO they need to add a bit more danger.</p><p>Edit: And ANYONE can pull aggro off the start.  I'm talking about making it a little more possible for some classes to pull it mid-fight.</p></blockquote><p>You're right for the most part -- as long as a tank has decent equipment and adept 3/master 1 taunts/CAs, it rarely loses agro, and that's where the whole "Agro control is a group effort" idea comes from, if you know how much agro your guardian can keep, you can push that limit and get to that line constantly.  Of course some classes like wizards or warlocks will pull it if they nuke off the bat, or healers if they preheal sometimes, but they eventually get the hint and stop doing whatever is causing them to get slaughtered.</p><p>Overall combat is pretty boring in this game, but so is it in most MMORPGs, atleast most of those I've played.  I'm really looking forward to games like Huxley in this respect, hopefully they'll break the mold on the whole whack-a-mole gameplay style. </p>

Windowlicker
05-30-2007, 11:33 AM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><p>I must say, i don't miss the time where Druids, especially Wardens, pulled aggro like crazy, because their heals created aggro to themself, while all wards and reactives created aggro towards the target of the spell.  </p><p>So what do you want .. that the Healers should let the tank die to avoid pulling aggro ? </p><p>I think that all will not help really with the aggro-problems you may have with your warlock, you may only die more often because then the tanks will care primary about healers stealing aggro, and not about a warlock stealing aggro <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote><p> I don't have aggro problems on my warlock.  Everyone knows well enough to configure our groups and raids for correct hate management.</p><p>The healers shouldn't let the tank die to avoid pulling aggro, but overhealing SHOULD pull aggro onto the healer.  It all plays into the concept of balance.</p><p>Where's the skill in anything if you can just mash buttons?</p><p>And it should be mentioned that I also have a 70 Dirge, and a 64 Berserker.  As well, I frequently use my girlfriends 70 Inquisitor.</p><p>Edit: I also realize that the concept of adding anything that makes this game somewhat challenging won't be a thrilling idea to some.  But honestly, some classes are a snorefest because of this.</p><p>Edit Edit: <b>Also, I'm NOT ASKING for Warlocks or Wizards to gain reduced hate.  That horse has been beaten to a pulp a long time ago.  What I am asking for, is the ability for *any* class to pull hate eventually if they're overcasting.</b></p>

azekah
05-30-2007, 01:42 PM
If you go after mobs that are too easy...then yes, it will be a button mashing fest....try going after stuff that is actually a challenge and see how much more interesting things get.

re1master
05-30-2007, 01:54 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><p>I must say, i don't miss the time where Druids, especially Wardens, pulled aggro like crazy, because their heals created aggro to themself, while all wards and reactives created aggro towards the target of the spell.  </p><p>So what do you want .. that the Healers should let the tank die to avoid pulling aggro ? </p><p>I think that all will not help really with the aggro-problems you may have with your warlock, you may only die more often because then the tanks will care primary about healers stealing aggro, and not about a warlock stealing aggro <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote><p> I don't have aggro problems on my warlock.  Everyone knows well enough to configure our groups and raids for correct hate management.</p><p>The healers shouldn't let the tank die to avoid pulling aggro, but overhealing SHOULD pull aggro onto the healer.  It all plays into the concept of balance.</p><p>Where's the skill in anything if you can just mash buttons?</p><p>And it should be mentioned that I also have a 70 Dirge, and a 64 Berserker.  As well, I frequently use my girlfriends 70 Inquisitor.</p><p>Edit: I also realize that the concept of adding anything that makes this game somewhat challenging won't be a thrilling idea to some.  But honestly, some classes are a snorefest because of this.</p><p>Edit Edit: <b>Also, I'm NOT ASKING for Warlocks or Wizards to gain reduced hate.  That horse has been beaten to a pulp a long time ago.  What I am asking for, is the ability for *any* class to pull hate eventually if they're overcasting.</b></p></blockquote> <img src="http://www.bittermancircle.com/my%20images/BeatDeadHorse.gif" border="0"> Sorry, I just love that image.

Windowlicker
05-30-2007, 02:11 PM
<cite>azekah wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you go after mobs that are too easy...then yes, it will be a button mashing fest....try going after stuff that is actually a challenge and see how much more interesting things get. </blockquote><p> The point is the things that you define as a challenge aren't much of a challenge for a large portion of classes.  That's the idea behind this thread.</p>

Binford
05-30-2007, 02:23 PM
<p>So if Im correct here you basically want a system where a mob acts more like a player would? Instead of staying on the person who has the most hate built up, Go for the KILL take the healers out the the DPS and lastly the tank cause he is a [Removed for Content] without them.  </p><p>I play a raid equiped Guardian but before I was, ANY class could steal agro from me, depending on the fight.  If the tank is stunned, dazed, mezzed then everyone has to watch what they are doing,  If you have a poorly played tank who doesn't have the equipment or CA upgrades needed then its not a problem to pull agro if you TRY.  Maybe People are better at playing their classes than you imagine.  I do think that encounters could be made more interesting and with many of the latest additions they have been, and not with agro changes but with mob abilty changes.  Mezz charm memwipe and random spawns and other elements like that will add much more to the combat than just having the tank scrambling for agro every time he is healed or when someone nukes.</p>

Windowlicker
05-30-2007, 02:29 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><p>So if Im correct here you basically want a system where a mob acts more like a player would? Instead of staying on the person who has the most hate built up, Go for the KILL take the healers out the the DPS and lastly the tank cause he is a [I cannot control my vocabulary] without them.  </p></blockquote><p>No no.  What I'm saying is that there are a large number of classes doing things that *should* build hate, and those things are *not* building hate.</p><p> When I say I think it would be a good idea to make it so *anyone* overcasting can take aggro, it dosn't mean they should be able to take aggro easily.</p><p>I think your under the impression I'm saying it should be Warlock-Easy for everyone to pull hate.  This isn't what I'm saying.  What I'm saying if you have a powerful class that's overcasting *anything* that should build hate, there should be some chance they *will* take aggro.</p><p>This isn't a new idea, it was present in EQ1.</p><p>You can get excellent players behind any class.  But the mobs should be a little more dynamic then "I attack whoever is doing the most dps".</p>

MysidiaDrakkenbane
05-30-2007, 02:36 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><p>One major thing I've always been amazed to find missing from this game is proper hate generation from certain classes.</p><p>In Everquest 1, it was fairly easy to pull aggro by overhealing.  Heck, if you had *any* class you could eventually pull aggro from the tank if you started casting like crazy.  </p><p>In this game, this really isn't the case.  What we have here is a small number of classes that generate truckloads of hate, and the remaining classes that really have no care in the world.</p><p>So why isn't that fixed?  If there's a healer that's just kicking out the heals like crazy, why is that not generating enough hate to draw the mobs attention?  I see Scouts, Bards, even some Cloth casters that have absolutely no worry in the world when it comes to pulling aggro from the group.</p><p>Where is the challenge in that?</p><p>People complain this game is too easy, well perhaps this is part of the reason why.  It seems like right now the only item that can actually generate enough hate for you to consistantly pull aggro is raw damage coming from a single non-pet class.</p><p>Thoughts?</p></blockquote><p>umm... There could be a couple of elements in this. First of all, you're probably not giving your tank enough credit where credit is due...</p><p>1) Your tank could be just good enough to keep aggro. Especially if they're mastered/geared out.</p><p>2) The rest of your group mates learned "aggro control" a long time ago and know when to back off, and know enough not to come out with guns blazing at the beginning of the pull.</p><p>3) Your healers don't DS or "preheal" before the pull. </p><p>It usually only takes once or twice for you to get your face mauled that you learn what not to do. </p>

Windowlicker
05-30-2007, 02:46 PM
<cite>MysidiaDrakkenbane wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] wrote: <p>umm... There could be a couple of elements in this. First of all, you're probably not giving your tank enough credit where credit is due...</p><p>1) Your tank could be just good enough to keep aggro. Especially if they're mastered/geared out.</p><p>2) The rest of your group mates learned "aggro control" a long time ago and know when to back off, and know enough not to come out with guns blazing at the beginning of the pull.</p><p>3) Your healers don't DS or "preheal" before the pull. </p><p>It usually only takes once or twice for you to get your face mauled that you learn what not to do. </p></blockquote><p>Right but what I'm saying:</p><p>1. I'm not talking directly about how well your tank is holding aggro.  let's assume he's great at holding aggro.  I think there should *still* be a chance of each group member somehow being able to *take* aggro if they aren't playing properly.  </p><p>2. How hard is learning "Aggro control" when it's physically impossible for you to take aggro once the tank has hit taunt once?  The problem is a large number of classes in this game can chain cast through 98% of each fight with absolutely no danger to them whatsoever.</p><p>3. This "Pre-heal" "Pre-Ward" or "Pre-Reactive" is the only challenge for a large number of classes.  Beyond the first what ... 5 seconds of each fight?  There's absolutely no danger to these classes for the duration of every single fight.  They can literally hammer buttons randomly in most cases and nobody is going to notice a difference unless there's a cure they've missed.</p><p>The point is not *enough* people are getting "Their face mauled" in fights.  All I'm saying is there are some sleepy no-aggro classes that need some extra hate generation. </p>

redde
05-30-2007, 02:56 PM
<cite>MysidiaDrakkenbane wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><p>One major thing I've always been amazed to find missing from this game is proper hate generation from certain classes.</p><p>In Everquest 1, it was fairly easy to pull aggro by overhealing.  Heck, if you had *any* class you could eventually pull aggro from the tank if you started casting like crazy.  </p><p>In this game, this really isn't the case.  What we have here is a small number of classes that generate truckloads of hate, and the remaining classes that really have no care in the world.</p><p>So why isn't that fixed?  If there's a healer that's just kicking out the heals like crazy, why is that not generating enough hate to draw the mobs attention?  I see Scouts, Bards, even some Cloth casters that have absolutely no worry in the world when it comes to pulling aggro from the group.</p><p>Where is the challenge in that?</p><p>People complain this game is too easy, well perhaps this is part of the reason why.  It seems like right now the only item that can actually generate enough hate for you to consistantly pull aggro is raw damage coming from a single non-pet class.</p><p>Thoughts?</p></blockquote><p>umm... There could be a couple of elements in this. First of all, you're probably not giving your tank enough credit where credit is due...</p><p>1) Your tank could be just good enough to keep aggro. Especially if they're mastered/geared out.</p><p>2) The rest of your group mates learned "aggro control" a long time ago and know when to back off, and know enough not to come out with guns blazing at the beginning of the pull.</p><p>3) Your healers don't DS or "preheal" before the pull. </p><p>It usually only takes once or twice for you to get your face mauled that you learn what not to do. </p></blockquote> This is not his point. The OP is not suggesting that he, as a warlock, hates the way he pulls aggro when he's doing his dps possible, in fact it's rather the opposite.  He is quite rightly pointing out that there are certain classes who will practically NEVER get aggro with ease. Yes, a shaman/cleric will get aggro if they pre-cast and the tank doesn't taunt in time/gets resisted, but once the tank has established aggro, how often do you see the mob jumping onto a healer without some kind of mem-wipe in play. I agree with the OP here - if 1 healer is healing 80% of the damage dealt by a mob, that should generate a LOT of hate for the healer. I'm not saying the healer should gank aggro in every fight, but it should be close to it in some. Its hard to see without some kind of hate parser, but in a 6 person group I imagine the hate profile to be sometihng like this: MT       ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 50% DPS 1  ||||||||||| 20% DPS 2  |||||||| 15% bard    ||| 5% other   ||| 5% healer ||| 5% it would be more fun and challenging if in a typical fight it was more like MT       |||||||||||||25% DPS 1  ||||||||||| 20% DPS 2  |||||||| 15% bard    |||||||| 15% other   ||| 5% healer |||||||||||20% (dunno why i drew the diagrams!)

re1master
05-30-2007, 03:17 PM
I would personally like to see damage/healing made into something other than a flat ratio.  So lets say you do X amount of damage over Y time, it gives you Z hate, but then if you do 2X damage over Y time, it gives you 2.5Z hate.  Same with healing.  This would make burst healing exponentially more dangerous, and pay off those who keep a slow and steady pace.

LarryTalbot
05-30-2007, 03:34 PM
<cite>re1master wrote:</cite><blockquote>I would personally like to see damage/healing made into something other than a flat ratio.  So lets say you do X amount of damage over Y time, it gives you Z hate, but then if you do 2X damage over Y time, it gives you 2.5Z hate.  Same with healing.  This would make burst healing exponentially more dangerous, and pay off those who keep a slow and steady pace.</blockquote> People don't heal in a vacuum. The amount of healing/time is a product of the damage/time done by the mob, fast spikey damage results in fast spikey healing, there is no way to  "steady" heal in many cases. So in effect what you are proposing are encounters where any healer good or bad, bursty or "steady" will pull agro. That may make for an interesting encounter but it isn't favoring or rewarding a playstyle so much as making things tough on healers. The countermeasure that groups will use will be either extra tanks (as cleric guards) or extra healers (to spread the load) so in the end all that happens is that there will be fewer group slots for DPS.

azekah
05-30-2007, 03:38 PM
<cite>MysidiaDrakkenbane wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>umm... There could be a couple of elements in this. First of all, you're probably not giving your tank enough credit where credit is due...</p><p>1) Your tank could be just good enough to keep aggro. Especially if they're mastered/geared out.</p><p>2) The rest of your group mates learned "aggro control" a long time ago and know when to back off, and know enough not to come out with guns blazing at the beginning of the pull.</p><p>3) Your healers don't DS or "preheal" before the pull. </p><p>It usually only takes once or twice for you to get your face mauled that you learn what not to do. </p></blockquote>QFE You only have to find a PUG where you get stuck with a bad tank/healer/dps to realize that this system is in place already. Thing is, most people have been playing so long they know what their doing. Only way to change that would be to make it even harder to control aggro and such...and there goes any new player base...

re1master
05-30-2007, 03:44 PM
<cite>LarryTalbot wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>re1master wrote:</cite><blockquote>I would personally like to see damage/healing made into something other than a flat ratio.  So lets say you do X amount of damage over Y time, it gives you Z hate, but then if you do 2X damage over Y time, it gives you 2.5Z hate.  Same with healing.  This would make burst healing exponentially more dangerous, and pay off those who keep a slow and steady pace.</blockquote> People don't heal in a vacuum. The amount of healing/time is a product of the damage/time done by the mob, fast spikey damage results in fast spikey healing, there is no way to  "steady" heal in many cases. So in effect what you are proposing are encounters where any healer good or bad, bursty or "steady" will pull agro. That may make for an interesting encounter but it isn't favoring or rewarding a playstyle so much as making things tough on healers. The countermeasure that groups will use will be either extra tanks (as cleric guards) or extra healers (to spread the load) so in the end all that happens is that there will be fewer group slots for DPS.</blockquote><p>Those big bursts of DPS from raid mobs shouldn't be constant though, and you shouldn't be capable of unloading the healing necessary to make that curve be apparent unless you're really trying.  Even so, the slightly increased agro would be offset by a good tank.</p><p> Think of it like this: <img src="http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/6171/healds7.jpg" border="0"></p><p>Though it's a slight difference, what's considered 'burst' healing/dps generates a bit more agro than 'steady' healing/dps.  It's just finding the threshold to what's 'burst' and what's not that's crucial. </p>

Vielyth07
05-30-2007, 04:12 PM
<p>Ok well first off</p><p><------ Vanguard is that way, so is WoW</p><p>If I wanted a game with a broke [Removed for Content] rage mechanic and stupid warrior tanking system that was broken and revolved around rage and garbage like that , I would be playing that game</p><p>If it aint broke, dont fix it, and its working as intended. If you want the mechanics of the game changed then quit playing</p>

Hazeroth
05-30-2007, 04:39 PM
<p>As a Dirge I kinda agree that some classes need to get more agro loving.</p><p> Right now I don't get no were near my fair share of it.</p><p>I know, I know why would anyone want Agro. Well, the reason is this. Time after time when a raid wipes I am almost always one of the lasts ones to die.</p><p>It's like the mobs are straight up telling me that I'm not a threat, and that killing me at the end is more then an after thought.</p><p>The shear disregard for me over and over again tends to work on ones nerves after a time.</p><p> If asked what Elude is, I'd say "Elu-what?" Then look in my Knowledge book, find it, and say "...oh ya, I got that....what does reduce Hate mean?"</p><p>Only thing I can think of to increase Dirge hate would be that ever time someone does an Auto-attack or CA in the group with Cacophony of Blades up the damage done will be attributed to Dirge, as in "So-and-So hits target for such damge, Followed by the Line "Dirge-so-and-so hit's Target for such disease Damage with Chime. </p><p>Which btw, will shut up alot of Dirges who want more DPS. In fact, if they do that Dirges are going to get all the DPS they could ever want...or handle.</p>

joshshift
05-30-2007, 04:48 PM
um...i play a ranger and its easy for me to pull aggro if im not careful.

Windowlicker
05-30-2007, 04:54 PM
<cite>joshshift wrote:</cite><blockquote>um...i play a ranger and its easy for me to pull aggro if im not careful. </blockquote><p>Actually, with Primal Reflexes (41% hate reduction buff for you) .. you shouldn't be taking aggro. </p><p>Oh, and redders <u>hit the nail on the head</u> with his post above.</p>

joshshift
05-30-2007, 05:19 PM
shows what you know.

Kendricke
05-30-2007, 05:26 PM
<p>I'm still trying to find the convincing argument that shows how increasing hate generation throughout a raid is "improving gameplay".</p>

Dasein
05-30-2007, 05:32 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><p>So if Im correct here you basically want a system where a mob acts more like a player would? Instead of staying on the person who has the most hate built up, Go for the KILL take the healers out the the DPS and lastly the tank cause he is a [I cannot control my vocabulary] without them.  </p></blockquote><p>No no.  What I'm saying is that there are a large number of classes doing things that *should* build hate, and those things are *not* building hate.</p><p> When I say I think it would be a good idea to make it so *anyone* overcasting can take aggro, it dosn't mean they should be able to take aggro easily.</p><p>I think your under the impression I'm saying it should be Warlock-Easy for everyone to pull hate.  This isn't what I'm saying.  What I'm saying if you have a powerful class that's overcasting *anything* that should build hate, there should be some chance they *will* take aggro.</p><p>This isn't a new idea, it was present in EQ1.</p><p>You can get excellent players behind any class.  But the mobs should be a little more dynamic then "I attack whoever is doing the most dps".</p></blockquote>Every heal, debuff, ward, attack and of course taunt builds hate. However, there is also a lot we do not know about how agro works in this game. Beyond taunts, we don't know how much hate different things generate, nor do we know the difference between the numeric hate values and the hate list ranking - for example, Rescue both bumbs the tank up the hate list and taunts the mob. What's the difference?

Skua
05-30-2007, 05:40 PM
i agree with the op <u><i>eq2 combat has been always a button mashing fest.....</i></u> only some classes need some attention (enchanters to mezz an add 4 example) , healer in a bad group ..... go play any other MMORPG , wow (omg wow has better agro gameplay lol), lineage 2 , FFXI (thief class created to control agro&nbsp<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> , u cant mash buttons like crazy , u need to think about agro , about your own spells ect

azekah
05-30-2007, 05:48 PM
<cite>SkuaII wrote:</cite><blockquote>go play any other MMORPG , wow (omg wow has better agro gameplay lol), lineage 2 , FFXI (thief class created to control agro <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> , u cant mash buttons like crazy , u need to think about agro , about your own spells ect </blockquote>QFE....I like EQ the way it is...(waves bye)

Fatkiddown
05-30-2007, 06:30 PM
OMG this thread is .....dunno what to call it. ALL MMOS are button mashing fests because.........you have to press a dang button to do anything the computer cannot READ YOUR MIND! And to the OP if eq1's aggro system gives you the warm fuzzies then go play eq1 /rant off

Windowlicker
05-30-2007, 06:41 PM
<cite>Kendricke wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I'm still trying to find the convincing argument that shows how increasing hate generation throughout a raid is "improving gameplay".</p></blockquote> It's improving gameplay because it adds risk to a large number of classes that have absolutely none.  They want to bill this game as one that caters to the casual gamer?  Fine.  They want to aim for a slightly more mature audience?  Great!  Then add some challenge to the classes that currently don't have any. Really, if you have a healer doing 80% of the healing in a group .. there should be some kind of reaction from the mob.  Just like how when you have a DPS caster doing 80% of the damage, he's going to wear the mob. It's pretty simple. And I'm sorry, but to all the folks crying because they think this would make the game unplayable .. why the hell do you play?  I'm sorry but taking my Dirge to 70 made me really realize just how little threat a large portion of classes in this game really have in a normal group. What fun is it if you know without a doubt you really have absolutely no danger in a raid or group unless everyone else dies?  It's pretty lame if you ask me.  I'm sorry, but I play games for the challenge.  

Windowlicker
05-30-2007, 06:45 PM
<cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote> Every heal, debuff, ward, attack and of course taunt builds hate. However, there is also a lot we do not know about how agro works in this game. Beyond taunts, we don't know how much hate different things generate, nor do we know the difference between the numeric hate values and the hate list ranking - for example, Rescue both bumbs the tank up the hate list and taunts the mob. What's the difference? </blockquote> I'm not claiming to know how it works, and I really don't care to.  I agree completely with what your saying about spells like that building hate, however to what end? If they build hate yet have absolutely no chance of ever grabbing the mobs attention, what's the point? Where's the value in only having a few select classes capable of taking aggro? Each and every player should have to face the risk of drawing a mobs attention.  If you don't have that aspect, then you have people that don't pay attention in raids, don't pay attention in groups .. and simply assist the tank and mash buttons.

Dasein
05-30-2007, 07:00 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote> Every heal, debuff, ward, attack and of course taunt builds hate. However, there is also a lot we do not know about how agro works in this game. Beyond taunts, we don't know how much hate different things generate, nor do we know the difference between the numeric hate values and the hate list ranking - for example, Rescue both bumbs the tank up the hate list and taunts the mob. What's the difference? </blockquote> I'm not claiming to know how it works, and I really don't care to.  I agree completely with what your saying about spells like that building hate, however to what end? If they build hate yet have absolutely no chance of ever grabbing the mobs attention, what's the point? Where's the value in only having a few select classes capable of taking aggro? Each and every player should have to face the risk of drawing a mobs attention.  If you don't have that aspect, then you have people that don't pay attention in raids, don't pay attention in groups .. and simply assist the tank and mash buttons. </blockquote>Healing, especially at a raid level, offers many of it's own challenges, and failure usually means the raid wipes. If the MT dies, that's more often than not a wipe. Now, let's say healers have to throttle their healing so as not to get agro, what changes will this require to rebalance raid mob daamge capabilities so the healers can realistically keep up with healing without drawing agro? If it becomes impossible to heal without the healers taking agro, then you're essentially nullifying the role of the MT, as agro will be bouncing all over. This means you'll need to toughen up every class to avoid everyone but the main tank dropping in one or two shots. In the end, you either get rid of tanks and thus agro management as a whole, or you have a system where the tank holds agro the majority of the time, with the occasional exception.

LarryTalbot
05-30-2007, 07:38 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><b></b> What fun is it if you know without a doubt you really have absolutely no danger in a raid or group unless everyone else dies?  It's pretty lame if you ask me.  I'm sorry, but I play games for the challenge.   </blockquote><p> Then to be honest  multiplayer games are probably not for you.  I'm serious, if you play a single user game then you can set the level of challenge appropriate to your skill, when you get so good that the game becomes boring then you can move on. The problem with multiplayer games, especially ones based on grouping, is that content difficulty is aimed at the average appropriate group. If you have all the right classes in the right gear with the right spells and a reasonable skill level they should be able to play the content. </p><p>Imagine the average pickup group, a less than perfectly equiped tank --- because the Fabled equipped Uber guy is probably off doing a raid -- a grab bag of DPS and whatever healer class happens to be around.  They start out less than optimal, a raiding guild able to call from out of it's ranks the ideal setup would not have sent these guys. Chances are that they will already have issues, maybe a wizzy that's a bit trigger happy or a healer with average heals, under the current system they will already be struggling to complete the content but with a few wipes they might make it. This is where SOE aims group content because your casual player is 90% of the guys that pay subscriptions every month. Make the game too hard to satisfy your need for a "challenge" and groups like this would fail far more often than they succeed. Sony isn't going to upset these guys and loose 6 subscriptions just so that you can feel challenged at the end of the night. </p><p>I PUG a lot. I die 2 or 3 times a night because some wizzy can't control his DPS or some tank can't keep agro. When an odd grouping actually works, and we go further than we think we should by working out ways to work together, that is a great feeling. For every group where people are mashing buttons and going through the motions there will be ten like this, where things are tough enough as it is, if you want a challenge join one rather than team with guildies and friends. You might find it interesting.</p>

Skua
05-30-2007, 09:04 PM
<cite>Fatkiddown wrote:</cite><blockquote>OMG this thread is .....dunno what to call it. ALL MMOS are button mashing fests because.........you have to press a dang button to do anything the computer cannot READ YOUR MIND! And to the OP if eq1's aggro system gives you the warm fuzzies then go play eq1 /rant off </blockquote>go play FFXI and u will see ,hardcore game yup , but takes "skill" to play , skillchains , stuns , mobs weak to elem ents , agro , teamwork  i learned a lot playing FFXI  my question is where is the teamwork in Eq2? a brigand calling dispatch in his/her macro? lol

Windowlicker
05-30-2007, 11:04 PM
<cite>LarryTalbot wrote:</cite><blockquote><p> Then to be honest  multiplayer games are probably not for you. </p> </blockquote> You'd think I would have learned something in the past 8 years. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

LarryTalbot
05-31-2007, 02:50 AM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><cite>LarryTalbot wrote:</cite><blockquote><p> Then to be honest  multiplayer games are probably not for you. </p> </blockquote> You'd think I would have learned something in the past 8 years. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote><p> Taken in isolation I think my line reads harsher than intended. My point is that in single player games you can tweak the difficulty without effecting another players ability to play and enjoy the game. So two different players could have 2 different dificulty settings, one easier than the others to suit their skill level and playstyle. Multiplayer games don't offer that. If SOE jacks up the difficulty so you feel challenged they probably frustrate the life out of newbies and folks with less skill. EQ2 is targetted at the casual player, folks with real lives, relationships and careers that compete for their time. If a casual player starts into the game and dies repeatedly chances are that he'll get frustrated and pack it in rather than expend the time nescessary to deal with wayward game mechanics. When he goes he takes his monthly subscription with him. That is the rub, it's essentially the same argument as folks that want more high end raid content. Do you cater to a small part of your player base or do you concentrate on the majority? I don't think the majority find the game too easy.</p>

Skua
05-31-2007, 07:41 AM
solo content = easy heroic content = normal raid content = hard

MrWolfie
05-31-2007, 07:50 AM
<p>Have your tank get mezzed or stunned, and see what happens. Especially in a duo or trio.</p>

steelblueangel
05-31-2007, 08:18 AM
<p>zahne, sounds like u were happier with eq1 and this is eq2. If u want a challenge then raid. </p><p>Wizzys, warlocks and other dps classes can a do take agro from the tank but good tanks quickly get it back a good healer will switch targets till they do to keep the group alive. </p><p>Nothing is wrong with the game agro. By the way what class do u play and what level?</p>

Iseabeil
05-31-2007, 10:48 AM
<p>Im sorry, but I have no longing for going back to when the tank would pull a mob, it would ignore him totally, smack the living daylight out of me for breeze agro and then decide the tank was worthy his attention for a few seconds before deciding that the warden tryin to keep tank alive and get me up is more annoying then the tank that is literally wavin like crazy to get the mobs attention. The only way to make buff classes 'dangerous' to play when it comes to agro is to reintroduce the old levels of buff agro, wich means body pulls will kill of bards and chanters. With mainly illusionist as exception, those classes generally cant generate enough hate on their own to make them risk factors. As for the suggestion of making spike healing pull more hate then steady healing, you do realize that would be a low blow on druids right? Shamans can keep a tank steady with wards, clerics with reactives will keep them quite steady as well, druids on the other hand has no preventive means to handle damage and spike damage will cause spike healing or a dead tank. So lets give the priest class with with weakest armour the biggest risk of being beaten up?</p><p>Having been here since pre-launch, EQ2 used to be a much harder game, not the hardest out there, but way beyond what it is today. The thing tho is that they have even stated that they werent happy with the way it used to be, and I highly doubt they will suddenly turn around and go back again.</p>

azekah
05-31-2007, 10:52 AM
The main risk for the healer is for the tank to die, and the group to wipe. The main risk for the tank is to have a bad pull, or not be able to hold aggro and have others die or wipe the group. The main risk for dps classes is to draw too much aggro and die and possible cause a group wipe because of misplaced aggro. Enchanters are there to help with CC...ie if tank has a bad pull or adds pop/wander in. Buffers/debuffers type classes are there to make the group stats better/make the mob trash. If anyone screws up...you wipe...thats enough risk for me...