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Arioc
05-27-2007, 05:06 PM
<p>So I am raiding with my guild alot and we have several well equipped guild designated Tanks so usualy I'm put in an intercept role or flat dps. Although I am not always in a group with a dirge, I find that if I'm in a group with a zerker or guard they can out dps me. It seems to be the Warriors buckler skill is the key, they both use a buckler in the offhand to grand them some sort of flurry attack they can spam with a super slow but high dmg mainhand weapon. When I spoke to one of them they suggested that the best dps for an sk is to get a gnillaw and put a +12 slashing on it, (it pretty much boosts the autoattack dps rating to 104.3). Well there it is, spamming spells (most master 1) I can't out dps em, autoattacking the same. We're in the same group and have the same buffs but they surly are topping my dps by quite a bit. </p><p> AA wise I took battle leadership, max spell crit and max attack haste. </p><p> I was thinking perhaps if I got a frostwrath or some very nice 1h DPS axe, maybe something with 1.6 delay, the +30% haste ontop of my innate haste and Cloak of Flames will boost me to 75% haste for 20 seconds every 27 seconds. (So only about 7 seconds between bursts of speed). What do you guys think? Fast axe (1.6 delay, with +12 slashing on it) or Slow axe with a larger dmg range but 2.5 or 3.0 speed so it dosn't get as fast when I axe haste.</p><p> Opinions? Or if this is an old subject (forgive me I searched a few pages back before posting) can you direct me to the discussion on how to squeeze the most dps out of the sk on raids as a DPS role. </p>

Phalong
05-27-2007, 05:26 PM
<p>IMO, if you arent tanking, go with high damage, slow delay.  Get a poc that works for you, and get as much haste as possible.</p><p> Going down the STR line and maxing out the AA haste, then getting Cloak of Flames, and add that to some spell based haste will let you rock the house.</p><p> STR/INT line will give you the Best DPS.  Then Reaver and Decay as well.  Make sure you have some beefed up Strength, somewhere in the 400+ mark, and get agilit up as well.</p><p> When Im DPS on a raid, I normally use a 2 hander with some Big damage.  I have the Nightwatcher Helm with Haste, and added a Haste Adornment.  FYI, Haste Adornments stance with AA and Item Haste.</p><p>Without spell induced Haste, I sit at about 35-55% depending on my items.  Im still working on the Cloak of Flames collection quest.</p><p>You may just want to find a big DPS two hander, and have a Fabeled Adornment made for it. </p><p>On raid Parse, I'm normally in the middle.  Right around the Main Tank, Berserkers, and Wizards.</p>

t0iletduck
05-27-2007, 06:46 PM
You bring up a valid point and it is worth discussion. I will add what I can from the perspective of mostly fabled/mostly mastered SK (only missing the stances, devious evasion, and mana sieve). I am geared for tanking and don't have many proc items. This puts a hindance on some DPS, but I would rather have high HP, AGI, and STA items than compete with mages for proc items. The AA discrepency also had me seriously contemplating switching mains from SK to zerker because of it, but I've invested too much time and plat into my SK, and I still enjoy playing the class more then Zerker. (I have a 65 zerker with max STA aa's) In my previous guild, I was usually put in the caster DPS group. This meant a troub, illus, wiz, conj, rogue/pred, and a Fury. In this group I could do 1100-1400+ DPS depending on the fight. This setup gives a lot of INT, disruption buffs, and lots of spell procs. When tanking a zone with Templar, Defiler, Warden, Dirge, and Swash/Assassin, I would do about 900-1100 DPS. In my current guild, im usually in the off tank group and im lucky to break 800 DPS. This leaves me wanting on the parse though, as a zerker with a good 1h and buckler can easily do 1500+ in the same group. Tank groups in general are good for survivability and agro,  because of the HP, STR, AGI, Parry, DefenseStoneskin, DPS, and Haste buffs. While doing virtually nothing for SK dps, it adds a lot to Warrior DPS.  The reason for this is because of the Warrior STA AA line, often called the Buckler line. The key elements: <b><u>Buckler Reversal</u></b> While a buckler is equipped, the next time that the Gladiator successfully block/parries/ripostes an attack or an enemy block/parries/deflects/ripostes the Gladiator, the Gladiator returns with a counterattack. This effect refreshes every 30 seconds. <b><u>Gladiator’s Finesse</u></b> The Gladiator gains a chance to doubleattack while having a Buckler equipped. (76% with 8 points. Guardians can up this to 86% with EoF AA. Mayong's Grim Brimstone Hammer will add yet another 10%, so guardians can have a whopping 96% double attack!!!) <b><u>Gladiator’s Revenge</u></b> As long as buckler is equipped, the Gladiator increases their chances of outright dodging melee attacks and returning with ripostes. *Increases caster’s chance to block with a shield *Caster will Riposte some incoming frontal attacks. In short, these reasons are why a lot of high end guilds won't let an SK anywhere near their roster. To maximize our DPS, we need caster buffs. I hate to say it, but the raid as a whole will usually get more benefit with another mage getting those same buffs. This buckler line also lets Warriors use a buckler without sacrificing a lot of avoidance vs a tower shield, while giving a significant boost to DPS and thus agro retention. But enough of my mini rant. Lets work with what we have. If you want to maximize your DPS, you will have to sacrifice some tanking ability. This means getting in a group with caster buffs. This also means getting items with damage procs. For example: aITEM -1343573124 -666022740:Planar Orb of the Wanderer/a aITEM -1174671998 697231471:Fitzpitzle's Misty Protector/a aITEM 579587842 -219290335:Bone-Clasped Girdle/a aITEM -1340919413 -1481152605:Ring of Supremacy/a aITEM -2056414978 -903549117:Earring of the Lost Tribe/a aITEM -1053838454 130755329:Unholy Manacle/a For 1h weapons, ideally you want one with a good damage rating and spread with a long delay: aITEM -1556817848 -560489460:Frostwrath/a aITEM 98786419 1934749213:Shadow Axe/a aITEM 750958099 -726888726:Serrated Sword of Retribution/a aITEM -1363713846 -1471722325:Chel'Drak's Shard/a aITEM -859758653 -1991062404:Planar Axe of Destruction/a aITEM -351713795 1407341178:Grim Brimstone Hammer/a aITEM 209476321 1593680789:Clearcutter Machete/a If you find yourself in a group with good DPS and/or Haste, a beefy 2h can wield some benefits. A good 2h while CoB is active is a good thing indeed. aITEM -1824581657 1598228238:Rak'leklo, Runeblade of the Doomflight/a aITEM 908425744 779756047:Gaudralek, Sword of the Sky/a aITEM 1911435692 410266974:Pride's Edge/a aITEM -1941013690 1902363720:Grotrot, the Flayer/a aITEM -407245266 2111640466:Axe of Unending War/a For adornments, get +disease damage. Items such as: aITEM 212082045 1692030426:Scintillating Occult Clasp/a aITEM 198674849 -1986110591:Scintillating Occult Stitching/a aITEM 1770535588 2020294751:Scintillating Viral Ornament/a AA lines....always bound to spark controversy. The only real consensus seems to be 4-4-8 INT. If you find yourself in melee DPS groups a lot, might as well go 4-4-8 STA to maximize melee crits.4-4-8 Wis for Battle Leadership is nice, especially if in the caster group a lot. The end of the STR line also has merits. However, aside from 4-4-8 INT, I havent found one that is significantly better than another, and it changes depending on gear and group buffs. Spell casting order also is important. Whether tanking or not, I like to start out with Sacriledge for AE disease debuff, followed by Agony for Wis debuff. Then its time to lay on all the dots you have, including pestilence. After dispatch is called, I use my larger nukes, like Wrath, Anger, and Tap Veins. If your shamans, warlocks, and dirges are debuffing disease resist, all the better. Also, timing your spell casts to maximize melee is helpful, but very difficult to do. What I mean is that your spells interupt your autoattack, so try to time spells between auto attack swings. The longer delay weapon, the more spells you can squeeze in without interupting your auto attacks. I keep a seperate tab that shows just my damage so I can try and time it, but its not an exact science by any means. Well, that was a much longer post than I anticipated. If I missed something, please say so. Remember, try to keep this post constructive.

Kaedi
05-28-2007, 07:08 PM
Don't forget the Dragon Bone Axe (2hander) from Harla Dar, 103dps, decent stats including INT, and a healthy proc

Arioc
05-29-2007, 05:56 AM
<p>After questioning my Guardian/Zerker friends, appairently the disparency between our ability to scale damage is larger then I thought. Their AA's grant them 40% chance to double attack on any attack, a high dmg retalitory strike if target block/parry/reposte/evade.. etc.. Basicly all these free strikes. The problem is, they can upgrade their 1h and the dmg increases, and the higher dmg the better. Plus they have a combat haste,  for their attacks. As they upgrade the weapon or buff it, the dmg they do scales quickly with each extra attack proc, toss in a dirge or some haste and it goes wild. </p><p> On the other hand we're limited to our spells. Sure we can increase int and slightly scale spell dmg, but our AA's just plane lack in contrast to those when it comes to dps. I always kinda ssumed the SK was in an offensive dps like roll, most people assume the SK's can dish out dmg, but now with this I can't keep up with guards and zerkers in unbuffed groups. They make top 10 parse even above buffed casters.</p><p> This is not a whiney grass is greener post, I just can't see how we can scale our dmg to compete with that sort of mechanic. Sure we can get improved melee crit, improved spell crit, innate haste, and group skill bonus but that dosn't grant us any free attacks. We're forced to swing at whatever our base rate is, and thus our melee is capped without a dirge or enchanter. </p><p> Our spells have a max dmg, and without some sort of +spell crit gear, they just won't keep up with melee weapon dmg as melee weapons start hitting for hundreds plus crit, plus free double attacks. I understand a zerker should be a dps roll but I'm feeling a lack of need for my class if I'm not the MT. A zerker/guard is being put in the DPS roll over me.</p><p> So far the best advice is to try and get a bunch of proc items and such, but that's marginal dmg improvments. I am afraid our AA's simply do not grand us such a huge dps benefit as the warrior line.</p>

Arioc
05-29-2007, 05:57 AM
P.S> Axe theory was a bust, grabbed an Axe of Shadows from HoS and +12'd it, used axe haste but dps was still much lower then a gnillaw with +12slashing. The 30 haste, ontop of my 45% haste right now helps, but not enough to massivly improve my dps.

Kaedi
05-29-2007, 05:36 PM
Did you offhand a symbol and use the Legionnaires Smite as it refreshed?  Otherwise you're comparing 1h dps to 2h dps and that's going to come up short.  Equip a comparable 2h axe and then compare it (with the axe haste) to Gnillaws instead.

Arioc
05-29-2007, 06:47 PM
<p>Grabbed a symbol and it felt like I was swinging faster, (or maybe it's just that it uses the dual-weild animations rather then the 1h animations). Anyways, legionaris smite every 30 seconds for 660ish magic (eh?) damage vs 360 disease (+49 dmg from adornment) ok 400 damage from shield bash every 20 seconds is better, but what sort of dmg is "magic"? I was thinking of taking the +45 disease damage boost on the symbol so it'll enhance all my spell attacks. I'm sure a good 2h axe will out dps my gnillaw's but good 2h axes are not common, most high end weapons for fighters seem to be swords. If I get my hands on harla dars axe I'll be sure to use it, but till then I was hoping to squeeze out as much dps as I can without waiting for a rare drop from a raid mob.</p><p>I will run some numbers with an axe/symbol and smite.</p>

t0iletduck
05-29-2007, 10:22 PM
<cite>Arioc wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>After questioning my Guardian/Zerker friends, appairently the disparency between our ability to scale damage is larger then I thought. <b>Their AA's grant them 40% chance to double attack on any attack, a high dmg retalitory strike if target block/parry/reposte/evade.. etc..</b> Basicly all these free strikes. The problem is, they can upgrade their 1h and the dmg increases, and the higher dmg the better. Plus they have a combat haste,  for their attacks. As they upgrade the weapon or buff it, the dmg they do scales quickly with each extra attack proc, toss in a dirge or some haste and it goes wild. </p><p> On the other hand we're limited to our spells. Sure we can increase int and slightly scale spell dmg, but our AA's just plane lack in contrast to those when it comes to dps. I always kinda ssumed the SK was in an offensive dps like roll, most people assume the SK's can dish out dmg, but now with this I can't keep up with guards and zerkers in unbuffed groups. They make top 10 parse even above buffed casters.</p><p> This is not a whiney grass is greener post, I just can't see how we can scale our dmg to compete with that sort of mechanic. Sure we can get improved melee crit, improved spell crit, innate haste, and group skill bonus but that dosn't grant us any free attacks. We're forced to swing at whatever our base rate is, and thus our melee is capped without a dirge or enchanter. </p><p> Our spells have a max dmg, and without some sort of +spell crit gear, they just won't keep up with melee weapon dmg as melee weapons start hitting for hundreds plus crit, plus free double attacks. I understand a zerker should be a dps roll but I'm feeling a lack of need for my class if I'm not the MT. A zerker/guard is being put in the DPS roll over me.</p><p> So far the best advice is to try and get a bunch of proc items and such, but that's marginal dmg improvments. I am afraid our AA's simply do not grand us such a huge dps benefit as the warrior line.</p></blockquote> It's 76% double attack if you put 8 points into Gladiator's Finesse. For Guardians with the right EoF AA, its up to 86% double attack. Throw in the Grim Brimstone hammer, and its 96% double attack. With DPS/haste buffs and a long delay weapon, that means their autoattack damage is just sickening.  Warriors can also go down the STR line for 22% melee crits, and with all these double attacks, thats a lot of no power auto attack crits. Don't forget Buckler Reversal, which will do an attack when you block/parry/riposte and when the enemy does a block/parry/riposte. This is free damage and the amount of damage depends on points spent, and refreshes every 30 seconds. Finally Gladiator's Revenge, which with 8 points increases your chance to block by 4.5% and riposte 4.5% of frontal attacks, thus increasing the chance for buckler reversal to proc. This adds up to a ton of non power consuming damage.

Arioc
05-30-2007, 02:55 PM
<p>I ran some parses last night, and clearly a axe of shadows with a symbol and nukes wasn't anywhere close to the dps of my gnillaw(+12slash) and nukes. I have 2 cannon fodder dark elves conveniently located near the broker in Neriak I like to parse DPS (always 2 level 69's always the same difficulty). So vs these 2 solo guys I get 700dps spamming my spells and autoattacking between refreshes. Currently I took 8 in melee crit, 8 in spell crit and 8 in combat haste (Str/Sta/Int lines) figuring these most affect my dps. I also have a Prides Edge and found that the gnillaw was actually the same dps as the Prides Edge with a +12 on the gnillaw (it just swings so fast the +12 makes up for it). Although that may differ vs epic mobs or longer fights. The gnillaw might be better overall since I'll get more swings in so better odd's to land hits. Dispite the fact that the Prides Edge has higher crit range.</p><p>Ok that BS aside, I've waited too long to really look into this info and am kicking myself for it. I missed out on the deathtoll earing reward by taking the cog, I missed out on the hollowcell braclete from LP by vendoring it (I know I'm a dork). So most of the quest reward items I've foolishly squandered. Aside from the +disease damage items in Inner Sanct (will aim for em). Any other gear you guys can suggest? it seems my DPS is kinda capped with the gnillaw and our AA's don't radicly scale our melee dmg much, so my best bet is probably to go for +spell dmg or +spell crit gear now since I'm spamming my spells so much for dmg.</p><p>I haven't tried to just autoattack and parse the dps but I expect it'd be much less.</p>

Beldin_
05-31-2007, 07:37 AM
<cite>t0iletduck wrote:</cite><blockquote> If you want to maximize your DPS, you will have to sacrifice some tanking ability. This means getting in a group with caster buffs. This also means getting items with damage procs. For example: aITEM -1343573124 -666022740<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />lanar Orb of the Wanderer/a </blockquote>Or : Planar Orb of the Invoker  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Pitt Hammerfi
06-01-2007, 06:37 AM
<p>Dont forget Arcane Spear of Tunare with 3% double attack adorn</p><p>aITEM -1953424679 1722288124:Arcane Spear of Tunare/a</p>

Und3rt0w
06-01-2007, 02:07 PM
<p>That's really disappointing to hear about the poor SK DPS.  I have one about lvl 50 and I was hoping to use him in the occasional raid where we have open spots and I don't need to heal w/ my Fury.  At this point, I'd be embarrassed to roll with a big nasty...weakling...</p><p>So i guess the SK is a great solo class - a good group class - and a terrible raid class...I wish there were more balance.</p>

DjVacant
06-01-2007, 02:41 PM
[email protected] Bayle wrote: <blockquote><p>That's really disappointing to hear about the poor SK DPS.  I have one about lvl 50 and I was hoping to use him in the occasional raid where we have open spots and I don't need to heal w/ my Fury.  At this point, I'd be embarrassed to roll with a big nasty...weakling...</p><p>So i guess the SK is a great solo class - a good group class - and a terrible raid class...I wish there were more balance.</p></blockquote><p> More balance?  Balance is the issue.  SKs can adapt and do anything (and thus aren't uber anything).  SKs CAN put out some great raid DPS, but they've gotta put in the time to get the needed gear, as well as be taken seriously by the other members of the raid to achieve anything special.  Most SKs are treated as unneeded utility on raids and may not get into the groups that would help push them towards the top.  As good as your DPS spec may be, you're not going to get too far if you're not getting the buffs...</p>

Und3rt0w
06-01-2007, 03:35 PM
<p>Balance in terms of them being a viable option for solo, group and raid situations alike.  </p><p>Specifically for raids, they don't DPS well enough to fill a DPS spot - they don't Tank well enough to fill a tank spot, and they lack group centered buffs...etc to make them a worthwhile class to have on raids.</p><p>If you're playing a class that you can't even raid with (in a serious raid guild), then how is that a balanced playing experience if you're inherrently raid inferior to just about any other class in the game?</p><p>I for one would love to see them them geared more towards the DPS side at the expense of tanking ability.  </p>

CHIMPNOODLE.
06-01-2007, 05:12 PM
<p>SKs fill the tank role very well, the DPS role decently, and add a few nice extras as well. Most of the high end succesful raid guilds on my server (if not all...haven't checked a couple in a few weeks or so), and that I've checked out on others, keep an SK on their rosters, or have been actively been recruiting one in the near past. When I raid, my spot is assured...and when I'm raid leader, it's a Guard and SK that are my first 2 choices. SKs bring a lot to the table, just not Tier 1 DPS or top single mob defensive supremacy.</p>

kickmyd0g
06-12-2007, 06:37 AM
<p>I've just respecced for the umteenth time and have gone</p><p>STR 878 and endline</p><p>INT 888</p><p>This purely for raiding I want to see if it ups my DPS , I'm using the Shadow Axe with a Scintilaton Vampiric handle and The Mist imbued Symbol with no adournment yet.</p><p>I was using the sword of sky 2h before that and was </p><p>STR 8482 and endline</p><p>INT 848</p><p>STA 6 </p><p>We'll see how it goes</p>