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-Arctura-
05-26-2007, 05:01 PM
(EDITED and modified based on feedback in this thread...) THE ULTIMATE SOLUTION TO REVIVE-SPAWN-RUSHING/ZERGING: (( regarding respawning, zerging, all that kind of stuff. <span style="font-size: medium"> </span> <span style="font-size: medium"><b>Make CUMULATIVE Revive Effects. better yet, make it EXPONENTIAL revive penalties. 1, 2, 4, 8, 16 etc...</b></span> If you click Revive, you get the regular 1 minute of rez effects. If you click Revive again within a set time, say, 2-3 minutes... you get DOUBLE revive effects. (eg. twice the stat penalties) If you click Revive again within " " "    you get QUADRUPLE the revive effects..  (eg. Twice as penalized as above (2x2)) etc. Until the nasty zerging zergling is no more than a 10hp whelp with 0 STR 0 AGI and 0 STA. NOTE: Revive effects will ONLY cumulate if you REVIVE YOURSELF at a respawn point. They do NOT cumulate if you are ressurected legitimately by another player. This will reward combat res's and punish revive-zergers! They could add a dialogue extension to the death window indicating Cumulative Sickness would apply. Eg. 'Last Death:  2 minutes ago.   or... Last Death: 6 hours ago  (etc.   And when you click 'Revive'  it will ggive you a warning box saying 'You will accrue Cumulative revive effects due to frequent self-respawns, do you wish to continue?  .. or something.. That way it will visually show you how long until you are safe to revive again (say.. 3 minutes or something... *shrugs*) ------------ AND/OR as Borias said, If you die, you lose infamy/status/cash/loot etc. (as normal) If you REVIVE yourself and die again within 2-3 minutes, you lose infamy/status/cash/loot etc.   AGAIN <span style="font-size: x-small"><b>(BUT the people who killed you AGAIN would NOT earn your status/infamy etc. (it would just dissapear, nobody would get it.) You would take a full death hit of infamy!</b></span> etc This way it will additionally punish people for trying to quickly revive and run in there to zerg everyone. NOTE: The infamy will not be lost if you were ressurected Legitimately by another player. This will reward combat res's (as the above idea did) <img src="http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g69/Arctura000/DarkShadow2ONEXX.gif" border="0">

rezo
05-26-2007, 06:15 PM
That's a great Idea.

Skill
05-26-2007, 06:15 PM
<span style="color: #0099ff"><span style="font-size: small; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><b>Gratz This is the best idea I've heard so far to fight respawn zergers. Maybe add a 10% lowering of resists onto revive sickness, and a 5% speed decrease. And of course, if someone on your recent starts combat with you, you should get a <u>small</u> infamy boost for killing them. SOE should try this out on test at least... </b></span></span>

Magius789
05-26-2007, 07:09 PM
This is a great idea....now can we get a MOD to forward this to the appropriate person and get this implimented!!!

deepruntramp
05-26-2007, 07:30 PM
No reason not to implement this IMO.

TerminalEyesore
05-26-2007, 08:33 PM
<b><span style="color: #ffff00">When EQII was first launched, long before there was any PvP, revival sickness stacked. If you died too soon after a previous death, you would temporarily lose even more stats, and it would get to the point where you could barely move if you carelessly died too many times. Given the fact that you are immune when you first revive yourself, and stay that way as long as you don't move, I see no reason why revival sickness should not stack when you res yourself. You have every opportunity to just sit and wait out your revival sickness before you rejoin a battle. If you simply have no patience and run back into battle carelessly, and quickly die again, you deserve an additional meaningful penalty. Death has GOT to mean something to prevent rez zerging. I also think that each additional penalty should add to the time that it will be in effect. That way each careless act just keeps adding to your bill. I previously suggested that the player is FORCED to wait a minimum of 30 seconds after a PvP death before he can rez himself. But stacking rez sickness (with some bite to the sickness) will effectively accomplish the same thing, while adding some strategy to the decision, by penalizing those players who choose not to wait and rush carelessly into battle again, and rewarding those who play smart and wait for the sickness to subside. Having said all that, its still temporary, with no meaningful long lasting effects. You just don't fight as well for a short period of time, afterwhich, all is well and good again. How about this. On top of the rez stacking idea, if you run into PvP battle with rez sickness, you are eligible for title/fame loss + chest drop no matter WHO you die to, even if you're on your killers recent list, but no one can GAIN title/fame from someone who had rez sickness when the fight started (to prevent title farming). This would make the penalty for rez zerging a bit more meaningful. This would go a long way toward making titles mean something, since it will be much harder to get your title back from your killer with rez sickness in affect. More than likely, you would just lose more if you tried to rez rush them.</span></b>

Cocytus
05-27-2007, 05:53 AM
<p>Awesome idea imo. Gray kills will really stack up while waiting on spires in Antonica if all the grays keep dying in 1 hit while they continuously try to zerg you.</p>

-Arctura-
05-27-2007, 11:30 AM
(( Thankyou for your support, y'all! Ill try posting this in the In'Testing forum to see if it gets noticed by the correct people there.!

WasFycksir
05-27-2007, 11:55 AM
Good ideas, maybe a little tweaking is order, but I like the premise overall.

Roald
05-28-2007, 08:44 AM
<p>Imo it would just be easier to:</p><p>A) Put both people on eachothers /recent</p><p>B) Make it so that if the person attack you again and they engage first, they can lose fame again.</p><p>C) Make it that you cannon revive while someone in your grp has player hate. ( a radius could be implemented with this idea) </p>

Image_Vain
05-28-2007, 08:55 AM
This is quite possibly the Ultimate Solution <hr /><img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

HerbertWalker
05-28-2007, 09:44 AM
<p>Lack of foresight and super complex PvP rules are the ultimate problem.</p>

convict
05-28-2007, 09:48 AM
Lack of Dev support is the problem.

Image_Vain
05-28-2007, 12:27 PM
<cite>convict wrote:</cite><blockquote>Lack of Dev support is the problem.</blockquote> /Agree

Squishy
05-28-2007, 01:12 PM
<p><b>"AND/OR as Borias said, If you die, you lose infamy/status/cash/loot etc. (as normal) If you REVIVE yourself and die again within 2-3 minutes, <u><i>you lose infamy/status/cash/loot etc</i></u>.   AGAIN etc This way it will additionally punish people for trying to quickly revive and run in there to zerg everyone."</b> </p><p>I love the first idea, but I see a potential exploit if status/faction are involved.  Roll an opposing faction toon...level him up....have your guildie on other side sit by a spawn and zerg him.   Would he get status/faction everytime?   Seems like a great way to get a toon 50k faction and mass status.  Other than that, the additional infamy loss, cash/loot loss, and stacked revive sickness sounds great!</p>

Greeen-_-Ranger
05-28-2007, 02:36 PM
I personally LOVE this idea.  Maybe if we get it to 10 pages like the HT post, it will amount to something, since this is actually a valid point and makes SENSE.

tass
05-28-2007, 02:43 PM
<cite>Image_Vain wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>convict wrote:</cite><blockquote>Lack of Dev support is the problem.</blockquote> /Agree</blockquote>lol lack of a living soul is the problem

Magius789
05-28-2007, 03:26 PM
As I said before I think this idea is fantastic, I would however make 1 change to it.  You shouldn't have to kill a person 3 or so times before they are so weak from sickness for them to not be a threat.  It should happen after 1, nothing I hate more than getting into a really good fight that lasts and both of us are low health, low power, and then having the person come back with full health and 1/4 power to kill me.  IMO the first sickness should be pretty substantial.

Odama
05-29-2007, 02:44 AM
wtg Skree.

Bozidar
05-29-2007, 03:05 AM
<cite>Roald wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Imo it would just be easier to:</p><p>A) Put both people on eachothers /recent</p><p>B) Make it so that if the person attack you again and they engage first, they can lose fame again.</p><p>C) Make it that you cannon revive while someone in your grp has player hate. ( a radius could be implemented with this idea) </p></blockquote><p>A) Yes, good idea</p><p>B) NO, bad idea</p><p>C) Yes, good idea</p><p>you can't give person credit mulitple times just because of rez.  too many exploiters out there.. </p>

EatThisShoe
05-29-2007, 03:27 AM
I think being able to lose fame again when zerging would be fine if the person being zerged didn't gain fame/status. Then there is no exploitation, but still a penalty for zerging. Still I think the revived sickness is a better solution. Long term penalties discourage PvP, in my opinion. But short term penalties only discourage PvP for a short time, obviously. Which is the intended effect. I think the durations should be kept relatively short, to discourage zerging to keep people from zoning, but not to discourage general pvp. No one wants to sit around for ten minutes because they just happened to die twice in succession.

Bozidar
05-29-2007, 10:11 AM
<cite>EatThisShoe wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think being able to lose fame again when zerging would be fine if the person being zerged didn't gain fame/status. Then there is no exploitation, but still a penalty for zerging. Still I think the revived sickness is a better solution. Long term penalties discourage PvP, in my opinion. But short term penalties only discourage PvP for a short time, obviously. Which is the intended effect. I think the durations should be kept relatively short, to discourage zerging to keep people from zoning, but not to discourage general pvp. No one wants to sit around for ten minutes because they just happened to die twice in succession. </blockquote> Brilliant, imo

Roald
05-29-2007, 10:18 AM
<p>It's a shame that the fairness of our PvP system should be compromised due to exploiters.</p><p>BTW Boz, I love your new sig <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

-Arctura-
05-29-2007, 09:20 PM
(( Revised the OP in response to peoples feedback. How does EXPONENTIAL revive effects sound? Not just cumulative, but x2, then x4, then x8! etc! <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> (so it wont take 10 deaths for them to be 0agi 0str... more like 2-3 <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Also added the 'if they attack you again they LOSE AGAIN (infamy status) etc. but NOBODY GAINS IT (to prevent exploiters))

Odama
05-29-2007, 09:54 PM
This reminds me alot of the early days in SWG when death would cause your HAM bars to be blackened and shortened.  Less Health, less action and less mind, so the more you zerged the more black would eat your bars till you were a one shot wonder.  It would definitely slow down the rev rushing.

Bozidar
05-31-2007, 11:34 AM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><p>It's a shame that the fairness of our PvP system should be compromised due to exploiters.</p><p>BTW Boz, I love your new sig <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote><p> Read what they said, though.  Those were some great ideas.  You lose again if you zerg (say for the duration of your rev sickness) but they don't gain anything!  So if you leave immunity to go zerg and die again.. say good bye to loot, and fame once again!</p><p>Great idea, imo.  Can't see the downside other than charm-pet-immunity-bug griefing someone. </p><p>As for the sig.. yeah.. they were finally white to us, we beat them 6v5 w/o losing a man, and then they say they're going to level up after being that exact level for the entire time we've been on the server.  Such a shame.. so this is my stupid way of shaming them more if i can <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

Badaxe Ba
05-31-2007, 01:05 PM
Original revive sickness is already over a minute long, either 1.5 minutes or 2 minutes, not exactly sure.  Also, your mana is not the only thing affected here.  The ultimate solution shouldn't be less pvp i think, or longer periods of waiting.  Armor damage is cumulative, so there is a penalty.  Adjusting tactics is the way to go.

Bozidar
05-31-2007, 01:59 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>Original revive sickness is already over a minute long, either 1.5 minutes or 2 minutes, not exactly sure.  Also, your mana is not the only thing affected here.  The ultimate solution shouldn't be less pvp i think, or longer periods of waiting.  Armor damage is cumulative, so there is a penalty.  Adjusting tactics is the way to go.</blockquote> no armor damage from pvp death

silentpsycho
05-31-2007, 05:39 PM
<p>I thought the ultimate solution was:</p><p>Force people to revive at their bind point on PVP death (unless rezzed, of course).  Isn't that why they gave everyone the "set revive point" spell?  Maybe I got my hopes up too high...</p>

Bloodfa
05-31-2007, 05:48 PM
Whoa, some good ideas here.  Better than most, to be honest.  I'll throw in a spam+1 to help it grow and draw some attention. 

tiredang
05-31-2007, 06:26 PM
<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote> <blockquote>As for the sig.. yeah.. they were finally white to us, we beat them 6v5 w/o losing a man, and then they say they're going to level up after being that exact level for the entire time we've been on the server.  Such a shame.. so this is my stupid way of shaming them more if i can <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote></blockquote>Especially considering we had only one healer -- a defiler no less <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> -- and their healers weren't the first to go down.  I find it funny, but I'm also prepared to be ganked while a solo green again <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

-Arctura-
06-02-2007, 08:42 PM
(( Dunno about the Revive-self-at-bind-point thing would be too fun, say you're out and about doing some long quest in some hard-to-get-to zone, then some punk ranger warping exploiter woops you in 2 seconds.   Then you gotta get alll lthe way back to your zone, by that time you are off his recent list, and can be guaranteed another death Its a good idea technically, but the implementation would be so flawed it would set us back to the pvp stoneage. <img src="http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g69/Arctura000/DarkShadow2ONEXX.gif" border="0">

Grayspirit
06-05-2007, 07:01 AM
<b><u>Simple solution:</u></b> Nobody in a PvP encounter (group or raid) can revive on their own if someone in their encounter (group or raid) has player hate unless ressurected by another player--the revive butten can simply remain grayed out. Once all players are dead in any encounter (group or raid), then the option to revive is once again available.

Badaxe Ba
06-05-2007, 11:04 AM
<p>sorry, the <u>simple solution </u>offered penalizes duos or trios who simply have the misfortune of not having a healer.  Not a simple solution at all, but an added complication.</p><p>Player one "What do you mean we can't go PVP'ing?</p><p>Player two "Sorry Bob, apparently there aren't any healers available LFG"</p>

Kaspar
06-05-2007, 11:21 AM
I don't really have too much extra to add to this topic, but I do wholy support this. The current system DOES support griefers, no matter which way you cut it. With people rezzing as it is, you rez immune and if you choose to zerg, die again and bam, your stats are quickly whittled down to nothing while the whole time you are continuing to lose fame. A neat solution to the problem if you ask me. <b>AND</b> most importantly, I think this would even be a reasonably easy thing to implement, as opposed to some of the other, more complex ideas. The more complex, the more likely it is some little bit of code will get [Removed for Content] up and make things a living [Removed for Content] nightmare. But this is simple, add an if check for what killed the player, if its an NPC then perhaps there is no extra penalty, yeah, this -could- be abused, but unlikely I think and would require it to occur under certain circumstances and if you are trying to zerg, getting beat on by NPCs would just make it that much esier to be reduced to a smoking crater in the ground, but if its a PC that killed them, then it should begin the cumulative effect.

Grayspirit
06-05-2007, 05:19 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><p>sorry, the <u>simple solution </u>offered penalizes duos or trios who simply have the misfortune of not having a healer.  Not a simple solution at all, but an added complication.</p><p>Player one "What do you mean we can't go PVP'ing?</p><p>Player two "Sorry Bob, apparently there aren't any healers available LFG"</p></blockquote><p> It is a simple solution. Maybe you're seeing it as an obstacle or another complication if you're in the mindset of attempting to gank someone then sprinting away if you cant do it or perhaps zerging. Going out without a healer would just mean you have to kill quickly and pick targets wisely and kill people before they kill you (already a popular tactic).</p><p>If this simple solution was implemented, how would that change the way anyone plays? The answer is it wouldnt unless you were a revive zerger. If your groupmates engage and leave you to die and you're stuck without reviving on your own unless he's out of combat, maybe if your groupmate didnt leave you to die, you would of killed your possible victim--just an example.</p>

Badaxe Ba
06-05-2007, 07:43 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><p>sorry, the <u>simple solution </u>offered penalizes duos or trios who simply have the misfortune of not having a healer.  Not a simple solution at all, but an added complication.</p><p>Player one "What do you mean we can't go PVP'ing?</p><p>Player two "Sorry Bob, apparently there aren't any healers available LFG"</p></blockquote><p> It is a simple solution. Maybe you're seeing it as an obstacle or another complication if you're in the mindset of attempting to gank someone then sprinting away if you cant do it or perhaps zerging. Going out without a healer would just mean you have to kill quickly and pick targets wisely and kill people before they kill you (already a popular tactic).</p><p>If this simple solution was implemented, how would that change the way anyone plays? The answer is it wouldnt unless you were a revive zerger. If your groupmates engage and leave you to die and you're stuck without reviving on your own unless he's out of combat, maybe if your groupmate didnt leave you to die, you would of killed your possible victim--just an example.</p></blockquote><p>Apples and Oranges Broncas.  You say you want this as a fix for zerging, so how does a quick kill even affect this?  Some battles have been known to last a few minutes, and if YOu were the last person standing, in your opinion that person should 'take the death' for their group, just to make it easier for them to revive?  Attempting to waylay this by a false accusation of zerging, I will simply remind you of the three back to back deaths your group suffered within the five minutes of a group of grey wolves waiting at the Antonican spires, before you all left for Nagafen.  This was way before the implementation of the no-zoning rule BTW.  The truth of the matter is simply you cannot introduce punishments which adversely affect other players, based on your idea of someone leaving in an attempt to survive combat, by forcing them to wait, or punishing a group of players simply because they have the misfortune of not being grouped with a healer, much less, what would you do in the case of your healer being the first to die?  What if some other element enters the combat, such as additional non healer forces, causing the other group to possibly retreat, thereby drawing out the length of combat?  The first dead would be forced to 'sit and wait'. as the continuation of the battle went longer and longer.  This <u>simply</u> complicates pvp.  </p><p>Of course certainly this would hardly affect your solo pvp'er as you should well know that is where the majority of my playing has been.</p><p>Zerging has been going on since the game first started, and will continue, as long as people continue to fight near revival points.  Having seen groups die quickly due to widespread Ae usage, and also seen battles last awhile, those who cry unfair simply because they chose to hang around a revival point waiting for someone to move in order to initiate battle really have no room to complain when the tide turns against them. </p>

Grayspirit
06-06-2007, 01:00 AM
<p>Actually I've been playing like this (no zerging) for almost as long as I can remember. In fact I remember the last time I zerged which was on whisperwind island on Venekor when my group couldnt find anybody to fight, so i disbanded and attacked my own group, unto which i zerged them twice and they corpse humped and teabagged me. Unto which I revived, called them <i>"Den of Greifers"</i>, got reinvited and we zoned to haven and called it a night. Even in that "[Removed for Content] around" scenario, messing around with guildies and vs actual opponents are 2 total and different things.</p><p>If the healer's the first to die, hopefully you have a dirge that knows his job in PvP, or maybe someone that hasnt engaged can revive the healer, or there's another healer to help pick up the slack. But if your only healer is the first to die then go down fighting, dont show the world you need to revive to be able to put up a fight--because you're already showing that it takes how many of your deaths is worth one of your opponents? 2? 5? 10? Bite the bullet and die together, revive together, brush yourselves off and go back at them together. <b><u>Revive zerging shows imcompetence and the amount of zerging shows exactly how imcompetent that person is.</u></b></p><p>But again, that's a playstyle choice. It's nice to fight against other players that do the same, even though 80% of the server does not. I would much rather be able to zone in combat than not. If some wannabe ganker wants to turn tail after an unsuccessful attempt then let him. If some [Removed for Content] zones to leave his group to die and save his [Removed for Content] then let him. Easier to kill people if they're spread apart and disorganized anyways.</p><p>I've been locked in zones and areas because of zerging, places such as PoA or Vultak island in TT not being able to zone because of this implementation--if anything that's technically considered harrassment or greifing even though we're laughing the whole time. I've seen videos of people being zerged for 15-20 minutes. I've been stuck helping guildies needing help with zergers because they themselves were stuck.</p><p>This thread is about a solution to revive zergings and I offered a simple one. Hopefully someone with some weight thinks its a good one and gets implemented but who knows--more than likely whatever is introduced to help the problem will most likely present another problem.</p>