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View Full Version : public request for /stripfame and /lockfame commands


Firam
05-20-2007, 10:57 AM
ok, so the <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=361872" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">other thread</a> where i brought this up got locked because people don't know what "on topic" or "no personal attacks" really means... and i won't rehash all of that stuff here, but you can (and i recommend to) reference it for some background on how i really feel about the fame system and the lengths i have to go to to support my stance on it at the moment... parts of it are good reading at least <b>my question here is this:  if SoE implemented the following commands, would you be in favor or against?</b> <b>/stripfame</b>: takes you back to 0 fame/infamy/notoriety <b>/lockfame</b>: you cannot gain fame, however fame can still be gained off you.  can ONLY be used when at 0 fame (i.e. after a /stripfame or prior to hitting level 10).  once your fame is /locked at 0, you have a seven day wait until you can unlock it again, similar to changing surnames, so people don't screw around with it without thinking about it first. this would be the ENTIRE set of commands required to fix so much of the nastiness and subpar PvP experience that this game has developed into.  so many of us yearn for the abiity to go out and solo/duo/group hunt without supporting the immature and (gonna be honest here) pathetic fame wh0ring that goes on.  people don't relentlessly chase you across 3 zones because you "might be a token" for them... they WILL do that though if you're a juicy General/Master (or whatever) fame hit for their precious fame meter. how much better would this be if you could take a guild group of /famelocked players, solid PvPers, out into the wild and go hunt for real?  that means: without 75% of the groups you meet running from you or evaccing to protect their fame.  good 6v6 PvP battles that lasted 3-5 minutes.  awesome 3v3 or 4v4 (or 3v5, etc) battles.  fun 1v1 matchups that would never have happened before if the titles were there to protect. as it stands right now i'd rather go play a FPS, because "PvP" in EQ2 is not about who's the best at playing their character, it's about who's the best at running away.  i spent 7 years between EQ1 and EQ2 on the PVE side of the house... it eventually wore thin... and now I'm coming up on just under a year on Nagafen, and it was <u>great</u> at first, but when I eventually saw the true nature of the PvP here, it turned me off. i don't want to be turned off. i like this game... i really do... ...but I won't play it just to satisfy some antisocial jackarse's need to blanket their real life lack of self-confidence and/or self-esteem with an overinflated PvP title in a game.  i've just lost way, way too many fights to this to make it worth continuing... ...and by "lost" i mean they never happened in the first place. =| thoughts?

Arsmaxx
05-20-2007, 11:09 AM
so basically..you want to be untitled and not be able to gain fame....but still lose fame.....am i missing something here or are you a noob?

CresentBlade
05-20-2007, 11:11 AM
<p>I am sure you will have people in your thread flaming for fear of title loss. They just need to remove titles all together, they are ruining the game. And the only defense the people hugging/hopping can come up with is that everyone must be jealous becuase they cant possibly get a title. I think its more like we dont care we just want pvp.</p><p>They just need to take all the title huggers and put them on their own little server where they can all run and hide from each other and stare at their pretty little title all day long, while the rest of us play the game.</p>

Firam
05-20-2007, 11:29 AM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>so basically..you want to be untitled and not be able to gain fame....but still lose fame.....am i missing something here or are you a noob?</blockquote>you didn't really think my proposal through, did you? lets try it as a thought experiment, i'll walk you through the steps: -SoE implements the two commands as i have presented them -i /strip and /lock my fame.  many other players follow suit.  some people (maybe even a majority, at first) will choose to keep their titles. -now, I am untitled. -at T7 (or anything above T3 really), who else is untitled? bots, and everyone else who /locked their fame. -do i care if bots get fame for killing me?  not really.  i don't seek out bots on purpose, they aren't good PvP.  in case you missed it, I'm <b>seeking quality PvP in this game.</b> -do i care if the other /locked players kill me?  no.  they don't get fame.  they aren't hunting me for that, obviously. i'm most definitely not a noob, and I'd ask you to <b>please</b> at least try to imagine this situation in action before you reply to a thread where I'm seeking honest, well-thought out opinions to improve this game.

Firam
05-20-2007, 11:42 AM
<cite>CresentBlade wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I am sure you will have people in your thread flaming for fear of title loss. They just need to remove titles all together, they are ruining the game. And the only defense the people hugging/hopping can come up with is that everyone must be jealous becuase they cant possibly get a title. I think its more like we dont care we just want pvp.</p><p>They just need to take all the title huggers and put them on their own little server where they can all run and hide from each other and stare at their pretty little title all day long, while the rest of us play the game.</p></blockquote>i'd be overjoyed if they removed titles entirely.  however, that's been proposed before, and many times before, not to put too fine a point on it.. and SoE is afraid of losing customers.  which is why I offer this as the solution.  <i>let people who <u>choose</u> to play outside the fame-game do so without affecting those who still wish to participate</i>. this is so simple, yet so elegant.  how many people would switch to a PvP server, come back to PvP after quitting, or be prevented from quitting over the coming months/years, if they just didn't have to deal with the miserable effects that the title system has on the overall EQ2 PvP dynamic?  i'd bet my next paycheck that SoE would see a net gain of customers in the long term, and probably a substantial one at that. implement this and i bet within 3 months even the whiniest fame-brat would finally give in and lock their fame once they saw how it improved the game. then, once everyone is untitled and accepting of that playstyle, VIOLA!, SoE can non-intrusively remove this entire broken mechanic from the game and be done with it (and all the countless forum threads and customer dissatisfaction relating to it) forever! MLK once said: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. " you can paraphrase that with the relevant EQ2 terms and i think it fits beautifully here.

Greenion
05-20-2007, 11:52 AM
<p><span style="color: #339900">im like...not for or against your ideas...</span></p><p><span style="color: #339900">i just wonder why?</span></p>

Groma
05-20-2007, 11:54 AM
The idea sounds good, the only problem is that you are taking away the incentive for some people to pvp.  Lets fact it, there are a large number of active pvpers that only do it for titles.  With this proposal you run the risk of creating a gap between high titles and no titles and it could get nasty if any of the no titles decide they want to turn fame back on and don't really have anyone to gain it from once they pass slayer. IMO, the better route to go, would be just to set it so that once a title is earned you cannot lose it.  Base titles on max kills, and add new ones once so many people get to the max title or something.  People have no reason to run away from a fight, because the only thing they have to lose is a kill streak, or the coin they accidentally brought with them.  Any pvp reward system that penalizes you severely for dying does not promote pvp, it only gives incentive for people to run away.  

Norrsken
05-20-2007, 02:24 PM
Interresting system and a refreshing take on a problem widely talked about on these forums.

Teh_Person
05-20-2007, 02:29 PM
I'd do this in a heartbeat. I don't get how you can't understand the reasoning really. Why shouldn't you 1v1 me if you have nothing to lose? It allows those who want to the ability to ignore titles entirely. It doesn't hurt anyone, but lets those of us who prefer even fights over gankfests enjoy what we like, without titles. I'd go for it!

siphara
05-20-2007, 09:54 PM
<p>Please forgive my alt account for this reply but i have been around here since day 1 <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> and understand how this PvP stuff works.. </p><p>I also know Ohnoez etc about getting overseer (ex-venekor player, i'm ex-T7 venekor myself) title blah blah and wanting some recognition for his accomplishments. Great, grats/golf-clap.. However, having no title would not make you any less of a ganker/skilled killer would it?</p><p>People <b><u>know</u></b> who the good players are by reputation, not by their stupid title.</p><p>So why do you and others give other people who seemjust to want to improve pvp quality a hard time? and telling them to L2P?</p><p>(I'm directing this at Ohnoez, i have seen you play and although you are good at getting fame, you are a ganker, you do hang in groups, you do sit at WW cloud stations on the cliff snipering people with other duo rangers etc, you play the system to get a high title in all/any way you can.. i also know for a fact you are an expert runner, maybe you are in the olympics as well? Your title is just an extention and affirmation of your running skillz, ability to play the system.. which by the way .. you are by no means <b>humble</b> about...)</p>

Greggthegrmreapr
05-20-2007, 10:17 PM
Titles were a good idea, in theory.  An in game reward for being good.  It just wasn't implimented very well.  the only think that really needs to be changed is to make it so that if you engage in a fight, and then run, you lose fame/infamy/noteriety.

Deancs
05-20-2007, 10:27 PM
<p>Ok I dont think you thought this one through yourselves. If this system is implemented it will be exploited to the fullest, and very easily I might add. Just think about it for a minute. </p><p>I have a better solution that I have petitioned SOE to do in other posts. </p><p>There is a simple solution that already has the mechanics set in place in the game.</p><p>IMPLEMENT MORE FAME/INFAMY LOSS</p><p><b>1)</b> Zoning- The mechanic is already in game that notifies when someone has dishonorably fled. Just tack on some fame loss for this. This little thing would change PVP dramatically. </p><p><b>2)</b> Groups and Raids- If a group or raid attacks a single target or smaller raid then there is no fame from that  target. This would promote more single player pvp and prevent guilds from raiding on single targets and groups. The game mechanic is already in place for pve raids and would just need a little tweaking.</p><p><b>3) </b>Running- Add an fame/infamy loss for people who run from a fight after engaged in combat. This would help the plate wearers in pvp. This game mechanic might be a little hard to set into place, but shouldnt be that difficult to determine who the one that ran is.  The mechanic is somewhat in place, the same mechanic that takes you out of combat. </p><p>These three little improvements would increase the pvp experience dramatically. If you take away titles altogether it will cause the majority of pvpers to leave the game. So we expound on what they love to do. Put a little challenge to titles. Then we will really know who the real champions are.</p>

EQ2Playa432
05-20-2007, 10:42 PM
Zoning during pvp combat is not allowed in the next game update.

Deancs
05-20-2007, 10:54 PM
<cite>EQ2Playa432 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Zoning during pvp combat is not allowed in the next game update. </blockquote><p>Well might very well be, but again, I this is another example where SOE didnt think their idea through. When this is implemented expect for there to be large amounts of ganking going on. </p><p>Go ahead and prepare for this cenario. </p><p>You are out and about and happen to be near a zone line. You see a single target so you think to yourself, this is going to be a good fight. Much to your surprise after you engage the one target, his group unstealths or runs out from behind cover and wipes you because you cant zone. </p><p>Now since you couldnt flee, you have given fame to a single target and his buddies that were hiding, instead of just the single target for fleeing. </p><p>Get ready for groups to exploit this by having a lower buddy be ungrouped running in front of them. </p><p>Editted to give SOE a little note. If you read this and would like more ways to improve your game hit me up. Looks like you need some new brain storming going on over there. (Not trying to sound arrogant :p )</p>

CresentBlade
05-20-2007, 10:57 PM
<cite>EQ2Playa432 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Zoning during pvp combat is not allowed in the next game update. </blockquote>Sweet!

silentpsycho
05-21-2007, 12:00 AM
<cite>CresentBlade wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>They just need to take all the title huggers and put them on their own little server where they can all run and hide from each other and stare at their pretty little title all day long, while the rest of us play the game.</p></blockquote>This server you mention eixsts, it is called Nagafen.

Firam
05-21-2007, 12:39 AM
<cite>Gromann wrote:</cite><blockquote>The idea sounds good, the only problem is that you are taking away the incentive for some people to pvp.  Lets fact it, there are a large number of active pvpers that only do it for titles.  With this proposal you run the risk of creating a gap between high titles and no titles and it could get nasty if any of the no titles decide they want to turn fame back on and don't really have anyone to gain it from once they pass slayer. </blockquote>I'm trying to weed out those who "only do it for titles", or at least convince them (through proof of concept in game) that locking fame is the way to go.  People who only do it for titles are exactly the kind of people who creates the problems with PvP in EQ2 that I'm referring to.  You can assume that everyone would either be untitled or Champion+, but it wouldn't break down quite like that because fame loss/gain is a zero-sum game.  You lose exactly as much as the other group gains off you.  Therefore, once the gap is created between the locked players and the ones who choose to keep fame turned on, you have a relatively isolated pool of fame points being distributed between the titled people.  The only way to get more is for fame to trickle up the ladder just like it does now, except there would be a lot smaller pool of people to take it from.  My suggestion would most commonly lead to the follow matchups: Untitled vs Untitled: Great.  No issues here. Untitled vs High Title:  Still great.  No one has a reason to run to protect anything. High Title vs High Title:  Still fine, as far as I'm concerned.  Run if you want.  I'm obviously not involved here and if the fame wranglers want to tiptoe around eachother all day in game, it doesn't affect me, <blockquote>IMO, the better route to go, would be just to set it so that once a title is earned you cannot lose it.  Base titles on max kills, and add new ones once so many people get to the max title or something.  People have no reason to run away from a fight, because the only thing they have to lose is a kill streak, or the coin they accidentally brought with them.  Any pvp reward system that penalizes you severely for dying does not promote pvp, it only gives incentive for people to run away.  </blockquote> If you base titles off of total kills, then you bring other unsavory aspects into the game.  Just think how bad the zerg rushing would be, for one. The best, and really only, way to prevent people from acting like '[Removed for Content] in PvP is to remove the artificial rewards (titles) which act as a carrot on a stick for (unfortunately) so many people.  Do I dislike the idea of titles in general?  Nope.  I think it's actually kind of cool to have the "Dreadnaught" or "Destroyer" (the two coolest sounding ones imho) in front of my name.  However, the detriment that they bring to the PvP gameplay dynamic, in their current state, isn't worth having a cool little word in front of your name. I want out of this downward spiral, SoE.  I want the option to play without titles.

The_Real_Ohno
05-21-2007, 02:11 AM
<cite>sipharalt wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Please forgive my alt account for this reply but i have been around here since day 1 <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> and understand how this PvP stuff works.. </p><p>I also know Ohnoez etc about getting overseer (ex-venekor player, i'm ex-T7 venekor myself) title blah blah and wanting some recognition for his accomplishments. Great, grats/golf-clap.. However, having no title would not make you any less of a ganker/skilled killer would it?</p><p>People <b><u>know</u></b> who the good players are by reputation, not by their stupid title.</p><p>So why do you and others give other people who seemjust to want to improve pvp quality a hard time? and telling them to L2P?</p><p>(I'm directing this at Ohnoez, i have seen you play and although you are good at getting fame, you are a ganker, you do hang in groups, you do sit at WW cloud stations on the cliff snipering people with other duo rangers etc, you play the system to get a high title in all/any way you can.. i also know for a fact you are an expert runner, maybe you are in the olympics as well? Your title is just an extention and affirmation of your running skillz, ability to play the system.. which by the way .. you are by no means <b>humble</b> about...)</p></blockquote><p>I find this quite funny, thanks anyways for the mention!  Always nice to see, who is your main btw since this is an alt account?</p><p>U dont know me because what u said here is hardly how Ive played.  I solo 85% or more of the time.  Only time Ive ever grped up is in Exile aka Vigilante now, and thats usualy because Im runnin to an instance with my grp.  Last 2 months I can count on 1 hand how many times Ive went out to pvp with anyone else.</p><p>Also the WW cloud area, only noobs die more then once there from a Ranger up top.  They learn, and figure out how to counter it.</p><p>Anyways... I really stand in the middle on the whole title thing.  Just see Pros and Cons from both sides, not just 1 like most everyone here is being.  Id say test it on the pvp test server, but we all know what a joke that is. </p>

Firam
05-21-2007, 07:04 AM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><p>Anyways... I really stand in the middle on the whole title thing.  Just see Pros and Cons from both sides, not just 1 like most everyone here is being.  Id say test it on the pvp test server, but we all know what a joke that is. </p></blockquote> No need to do any testing, this isn't a complex mechanic.  Just implement those two commands as I have described them and let the players who choose to use them do so. Viola.  No more whining from anyone.  And less people running from PvP because someone or some group is within infamy range and they don't have the absolute 100% upper hand on them.

Image_Vain
05-21-2007, 07:26 AM
I'm not sure if I get what your asking for but, I must say that apple pie is the best pie ever.

sprogn
05-21-2007, 08:33 AM
<p>Great idea!  Absolutely love it!</p><p>As for those asking why?  My personal opinion - I hate the title "Hunter".  I really do, it sucks.  It looks noob.  I would rather be totally untitled than called Hunter.  Yet whenever I'm Slayer/Destroyer/Champ or higher - I find myself getting angry when I loose fame to a gank and thinking about having to preserve a title - it just bugs me.</p><p>I would absolutely love to be able to PVP without worrying about fame and titles and never ever again see Hunter in front of my name...</p>

rvbarton
05-21-2007, 09:09 AM
<blockquote>I'm not sure if I get what your asking for but, I must say that apple pie is the best pie ever.</blockquote> /flame on I can't believe you would consider Apple pie as being the best pie ever! NERF APPLE PIE!  SOE, Please Respond to this request!  APPLE PIE does not deserve the title of being the best!  Remove it's title!  BALANCE PLEASE!!! /flame off <sigh...> Who cares?  If you dont' like the title system, please go to a blue server and join the carebear crews. ::off topic:: I like Pecan Pie with a hot cup of coffee and a scoop of vanilla bean ice cream.  Apple pie is good too, but needs to be nerfed.

Armawk
05-21-2007, 09:50 AM
<p>I dont favour anything which allows players to effectively hide who they are in a way that differentiates them from most others. </p><p>Level locking at least has a justification, but its COST is the fact it hides real strength from other players. This change regards that "lie" as a benefit, whereas to me its all cost.</p><p>I would envisage its primary use in practice (I am not doubting the OPs good intention) being in letting the player pretend to be somewhat noobish, while being in fact of a high standard. Boomz and Bangz wandering around without titles? I dont like that idea at all. They ARE tough killers with a huge reputation, why should they not be evidently that? Whats the bad side?</p><p>I dont see it reducing the problems with PVP at all, because the sort of players who would use it honestly arent the sort who play unfairly anyway.</p>

Norrsken
05-21-2007, 09:50 AM
<cite>rvbarton wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote>I'm not sure if I get what your asking for but, I must say that apple pie is the best pie ever.</blockquote> /flame on I can't believe you would consider Apple pie as being the best pie ever! NERF APPLE PIE!  SOE, Please Respond to this request!  APPLE PIE does not deserve the title of being the best!  Remove it's title!  BALANCE PLEASE!!! /flame off <sigh...> <b> Who cares?  If you dont' like the title system, please go to a blue server and join the carebear crews. </b> ::off topic:: I like Pecan Pie with a hot cup of coffee and a scoop of vanilla bean ice cream.  Apple pie is good too, but needs to be nerfed. </blockquote>Now that is a rather dumb solution given that he wants more pvp.

Firam
05-21-2007, 10:58 AM
<cite>shaunfletcher wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I dont favour anything which allows players to effectively hide who they are in a way that differentiates them from most others. </p><p>Level locking at least has a justification, but its COST is the fact it hides real strength from other players. This change regards that "lie" as a benefit, whereas to me its all cost.</p><p>I would envisage its primary use in practice (I am not doubting the OPs good intention) being in letting the player pretend to be somewhat noobish, while being in fact of a high standard. Boomz and Bangz wandering around without titles? I dont like that idea at all. They ARE tough killers with a huge reputation, why should they not be evidently that? Whats the bad side?</p><p>I dont see it reducing the problems with PVP at all, because the sort of players who would use it honestly arent the sort who play unfairly anyway.</p></blockquote> A good player's reputation preceeds them. And if you're unguilded, or mostly solo, and don't experience enough PvP to know who's good and who's not... then why do you deserve to know at a glance who is better than another person? And of course this all assumes that a high title equates to skill.  Which we all know not to be true.  There are very mediocre rangers, swashbucklers, and brigands walking around with Dreadnaught (or higher, depending on how much of a weasel they want to be), and exceptional coercers who will never see anything higher than Destroyer just due to the reality of their class. This is the Information Age, my friend, there are plenty of sources of "research" available to lay down a good groundwork of who's skilled and who's not.  Or, *gasp*, we can go out and fight one another and figure it out for ourselves... ...and for once, not care about dying while we do it.

CresentBlade
05-21-2007, 11:16 AM
<cite>silentpsycho wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>CresentBlade wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>They just need to take all the title huggers and put them on their own little server where they can all run and hide from each other and stare at their pretty little title all day long, while the rest of us play the game.</p></blockquote>This server you mention eixsts, it is called Nagafen. </blockquote><img src="/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

CresentBlade
05-21-2007, 11:19 AM
<cite>rvbarton wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote>I'm not sure if I get what your asking for but, I must say that apple pie is the best pie ever.</blockquote> /flame on I can't believe you would consider Apple pie as being the best pie ever! NERF APPLE PIE!  SOE, Please Respond to this request!  APPLE PIE does not deserve the title of being the best!  Remove it's title!  BALANCE PLEASE!!! /flame off <sigh...> Who cares?  If you dont' like the title system, please go to a blue server and join the carebear crews.<span style="color: #6600ff">You do if you took the time to post here. And please stop using the term carebear, truth be known compared to the other pvp games out there EQ2 pvp is considered carebear.</span> ::off topic:: I like Pecan Pie with a hot cup of coffee and a scoop of vanilla bean ice cream.  Apple pie is good too, but needs to be nerfed. </blockquote>

Pumancat
05-21-2007, 11:47 AM
<p>Just take out titles all together, they're meaningless in T7 especially.</p><p>There's no real reward for them and it just causes a majority of players to not pvp, but to be zone, bell, griff, cloud huggers instead. And makes people be very discrimenating in how they play.</p><p>If I see you, I'll try to fight you, or try to get away, doesn't matter what title you have.</p><p>Nyarlath - 70 wizard</p><p>Venekor server</p>

Greeen-_-Ranger
05-21-2007, 12:34 PM
<cite>Pumancat wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Just take out titles all together, they're meaningless in T7 especially.</p><p>There's no real reward for them and it just causes a majority of players to not pvp, but to be zone, bell, griff, cloud huggers instead. And makes people be very discrimenating in how they play.</p><p><b><i><span style="font-size: medium">If I see you, I'll try to fight you, or try to get away,</span></i></b> doesn't matter what title you have.</p><p>Nyarlath - 70 wizard</p><p>Venekor server</p></blockquote>Isn't that what people are already doing?

Captain Apple Darkberry
05-21-2007, 12:39 PM
<span style="color: #ff3300">Not in any way trying to diminish the accomplishment of a high title...   ...but its as obvious as the nuts on a rat that they change the way people PvP, and not for the better. They do not promote people to go out and PvP, they promote them to ~farm~ infamy and run for fear of its loss. So yeah, it seems like an interesting option... </span>

azekah
05-21-2007, 01:05 PM
there is a small problem with your argument.... You assume with out titles every will pvp at every instance no matter the odds... Hey...if I die, who cares? No titles no loss... /wrong... If not title, people will promote their k/d ratio or some other stat... Would you play pvp without k/d stats? I would...but I assure you that ALOT of people would leave without that... Why? Because ALOT of people pvp for the bragging rights...to say, LOOK AT ME, LOOK AT MY STATS, I'M UBER AND YOUR A NUB... That's not why I play... I play because it's fun to fight other players...to test your abilities...your dedication (items/adepts) and your experience against others... It's so much fun to take out a group of 4 when you are duoing...its fun to go down to the wire in a 1v1 pvp and lose OR win!...at least for me...It's not about the braging rights, for me its about just playing... But, I think if you take away all the players who won't play without some kind of stat system to say how good they are we will be down to 1 PvP server with very few people on...

Greeen-_-Ranger
05-21-2007, 01:10 PM
If they take out titles, people will 'farm' kill streaks etc.  Titles inspire competition.  Just like sports, there are always cheaters and people who 'cheap' shot other players (One shot skills, zone hugging, etc).  Nature of humanity or something, who knows.  Bottom line, changing one thing to 'fix' a problem, will just make them find something else to do.  Just to clarify, I think this is a fabulous idea, but I dont think removing them all togethor is a good idea, just give individual players the right to choose, that would be the bomb.

Greeen-_-Ranger
05-21-2007, 01:12 PM
<cite>azekah wrote:</cite><blockquote>there is a small problem with your argument.... You assume with out titles every will pvp at every instance no matter the odds... Hey...if I die, who cares? No titles no loss... /wrong... If not title, people will promote their k/d ratio or some other stat... Would you play pvp without k/d stats? I would...but I assure you that ALOT of people would leave without that... Why? Because ALOT of people pvp for the bragging rights...to say, LOOK AT ME, LOOK AT MY STATS, I'M UBER AND YOUR A NUB... That's not why I play... I play because it's fun to fight other players...to test your abilities...your dedication (items/adepts) and your experience against others... It's so much fun to take out a group of 4 when you are duoing...its fun to go down to the wire in a 1v1 pvp and lose OR win!...at least for me...It's not about the braging rights, for me its about just playing... But, I think if you take away all the players who won't play without some kind of stat system to say how good they are we will be down to 1 PvP server with very few people on... </blockquote>Omg I got busy while typing my response...our brains are apparently synchronized.  Awesome!

azekah
05-21-2007, 01:13 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>Omg I got busy while typing my response...our brains are apparently synchronized.  Awesome! </blockquote>lol

Armawk
05-21-2007, 04:47 PM
<cite>Firamas wrote:</cite><blockquote><b></b> A good player's reputation preceeds them. And if you're unguilded, or mostly solo, and don't experience enough PvP to know who's good and who's not... then why do you deserve to know at a glance who is better than another person? And of course this all assumes that a high title equates to skill.  Which we all know not to be true.  There are very mediocre rangers, swashbucklers, and brigands walking around with Dreadnaught (or higher, depending on how much of a weasel they want to be), and exceptional coercers who will never see anything higher than Destroyer just due to the reality of their class. This is the Information Age, my friend, there are plenty of sources of "research" available to lay down a good groundwork of who's skilled and who's not.  Or, *gasp*, we can go out and fight one another and figure it out for ourselves... ...and for once, not care about dying while we do it. </blockquote> Those might all be excellent arguments for doing away with titles, but I dont see they are good ones for individuals decidiing whether to show theirs.

Microbolt
05-21-2007, 05:49 PM
<p>I dont see how getting rid of titles will help anything.  If you dont like them then just ignore them.  If I'm understanding your correctly you are wanting titles gone so you dont get chased for fame?  If the title doesn't bother just stand your groud and fight them ignoring your title.  Either way you have nothing to lose if your ignoring title if you dont care about your title.  </p><p>I don't measure success by the title of the person.  But I do like seeing their title so I have an idea of the skill of a player before I engage them.  And though there are people out there that get thier title by finding loopholes in the system or questionable tactics most people <b>earned</b> their title by fighting well.</p><p>I could care less about my title (eventhough I'm currently a dreadnaught) even though on a 6v6 some ppl will hit you first just because your fame =D  but needless to say I dont think removing titles will fix anything at all.  </p><p>If anything should change at all it would be the mindset of the people that care about thier fame/infamy.  Until that happens (if ever) even if they take out titles there will just be something else they boast about.  </p><p>Maybe some kind of competition for players (like an ladder system, or castle you can hold) might help change some players way they measure their success in the game.  But then again maybe not =D</p>

Darkothe
05-21-2007, 09:00 PM
<p>After being back in EQ land for just about a week now - fleeing from the mediocrity of WoW - I gotta say I came here for the pvp.  Honestly...title-wise I can see justification for having em - </p><p>1.  "Look at how much of a Bad A$$ I am."  For those who earn it...sure let the colors fly if they want.</p><p>2.  It's gonna give me a clear indication of how quickly I'm either going to die or start running in the opposite direction - having a glowing "I'm going to kick your butt" sign next to your name will dictate to me sometimes how much of a greasy stain I'm going to leave on your boot if I try to stick out a fight.</p><p>3.  Yeah...It prevents pvp from people who don't want to lose their titles.  But, if they gained em legitimately the first time, they can get them back again...yes?  I can see where those who got their titles in an underhanded manner would scream like little girls and run at the thought of losing something that they *really* didn't earn...but this also gives you an idea of who's going to be an easy kill - and one that really deserves it.  <img src="/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>4.  Having just joined the pvp aspect of this game, I'd personally appreciate a title for slack-butt newbs like "ZOMG!  Newbsauce Not Worth Your attention!" like myself...getting ganked repeatedly by the same basement dwelling, no social skills, never seen a live woman/man naked cephlopods - while assisting me in learning simply how much it sucks to not be twinked at my level - is getting old.  Not whining here, I take the lumps cause I came to pvp to kill and get killed, but how much fun could it be for those pimply faced, adolecent attention [Removed for Content] to repeatedly gank someone who is obviously under geared and who hasn't been level locked for the last few weeks?</p><p>5.  It's their dime...they play without honor their loss.  I keep a pad of paper next to my computer, and if behavior from any of these slack-jawed reprobates warrants it, I simply write their name down and wait my turn...cause it will come.</p><p>Now let's get out there and kick each other's A$$!</p>

Firam
05-21-2007, 09:14 PM
Just to clarify again, I'm not asking for titles to be removed entirely (although that would be nice, I know SoE probably won't consider that).  I'm also not asking for the ability to /hide a title that you currently have. I'm asking for the ability to <i>choose to completely forego even having a title or taking part in the fame/infamy system.</i>  I want the ability to reset my infamy to 0, and then /lock it there so I don't have to deal with the kind of dynamics that I (and many others) consider to be detrimental to good PvP. Just let me choose to option-out without having to resort to constantly dying on purpose to feed my infamy to the same people who hunger for it for their own pathetic reasons, or using some weird cross-account deal to siphon my title off to the same end effect. That's all I ask. You can keep your Ultra Master Dreadnaughty title if you want.  =)

Soulhunt
05-22-2007, 12:47 PM
<p><span style="font-size: x-small">/agree with gromann</span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small">but if soe where to offer the commands....i would lose my master title in a sec. i like the idea. would be fun rebuilding it. also it would be cool to lose kills and deaths too....start fresh and see how well i can do at t7. my title doesnt make me better or worst then anyone else. people who know me wouldnt take me anymore lightly in a fight ,no matter what my title.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small">someone get soe to listen.....at this rate we will all leave this game.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small">SOULHUNTER...../remove title</span></p>

ailen
05-22-2007, 01:27 PM
<p>How about this.</p><p>/hidefame</p><p>It would be a mystery to some who would and wouldn't give them fame... they can choose to show their titles, or not.  giving people choices is what it's all about.  You'd be known by reputation if that's the way you wanted it.</p><p>I doubt seriously though that any amount of tweakage is going to stop people from running.  Part of the game is to survive.  People miss that point all the time.  Simply running in, trying to kill someone getting ganked and that's it gives this game a first person shooter type mentality.  I believe there should be MORE penalty than there is for PvP death, but then that'd be too "hardcore" for some.</p><p>What does it matter really?  If you dont care about the title system, there's easy enough ways to "get rid" of your title.</p>

Microbolt
05-22-2007, 05:00 PM
<cite>Firamas wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just to clarify again, I'm not asking for titles to be removed entirely (although that would be nice, I know SoE probably won't consider that).  I'm also not asking for the ability to /hide a title that you currently have. I'm asking for the ability to <i>choose to completely forego even having a title or taking part in the fame/infamy system.</i>  I want the ability to reset my infamy to 0, and then /lock it there so I don't have to deal with the kind of dynamics that I (and many others) consider to be detrimental to good PvP. Just let me choose to option-out without having to resort to constantly dying on purpose to feed my infamy to the same people who hunger for it for their own pathetic reasons, or using some weird cross-account deal to siphon my title off to the same end effect. That's all I ask. You can keep your Ultra Master Dreadnaughty title if you want.  =) </blockquote><p> Why would you resort to constanly dying?  Just ignore your title and pvp <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />   Titles are really useless in this game.  Nothing to gain from them except braging rights.  If you dont let the titles bother you they wont.</p><p>I honestly dont mind getting engage from someone just because they want fame from me. If anything, it's good because it gives me more pvp action =D  After all this is a pvp server.  And if I lose my title... so what... they don't allow me to buy anything cheaper or increase my skill level <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

Bozidar
05-22-2007, 05:08 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><cite>Firamas wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just to clarify again, I'm not asking for titles to be removed entirely (although that would be nice, I know SoE probably won't consider that).  I'm also not asking for the ability to /hide a title that you currently have. I'm asking for the ability to <i>choose to completely forego even having a title or taking part in the fame/infamy system.</i>  I want the ability to reset my infamy to 0, and then /lock it there so I don't have to deal with the kind of dynamics that I (and many others) consider to be detrimental to good PvP. Just let me choose to option-out without having to resort to constantly dying on purpose to feed my infamy to the same people who hunger for it for their own pathetic reasons, or using some weird cross-account deal to siphon my title off to the same end effect. That's all I ask. You can keep your Ultra Master Dreadnaughty title if you want.  =) </blockquote><p> Why would you resort to constanly dying?  Just ignore your title and pvp <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />   Titles are really useless in this game.  Nothing to gain from them except braging rights.  If you dont let the titles bother you they wont.</p><p>I honestly dont mind getting engage from someone just because they want fame from me. If anything, it's good because it gives me more pvp action =D  After all this is a pvp server.  And if I lose my title... so what... they don't allow me to buy anything cheaper or increase my skill level <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote><p>I can't figure out why, if he doesn't care about it, he can't just ignore it?  Does he pvp well and gets a title incidentaly, and then doesn't want to get chased/ganked by people who want that fame?  What's the source problem for this request?</p><p>If you don't want fame, go lose it.. it's EASY to do.  There are plenty of players that will help you get to hunter, and then you can just jump various bot groups constantly to lose the rest of that fame.</p><p>No coding even <i>needed</i>. </p>

Firam
05-23-2007, 01:15 AM
<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><p>Why would you resort to constanly dying?  Just ignore your title and pvp <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />   Titles are really useless in this game.  Nothing to gain from them except braging rights.  If you dont let the titles bother you they wont.</p><p>I honestly dont mind getting engage from someone just because they want fame from me. If anything, it's good because it gives me more pvp action =D  After all this is a pvp server.  And if I lose my title... so what... they don't allow me to buy anything cheaper or increase my skill level <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote><p>I can't figure out why, if he doesn't care about it, he can't just ignore it?  Does he pvp well and gets a title incidentaly, and then doesn't want to get chased/ganked by people who want that fame?  What's the source problem for this request?</p><p>If you don't want fame, go lose it.. it's EASY to do.  There are plenty of players that will help you get to hunter, and then you can just jump various bot groups constantly to lose the rest of that fame.</p><p>No coding even <i>needed</i>. </p></blockquote> It's not only a matter of me (and others) not <i>wanting</i> a title, it's the fact that we don't want to continue to feed the problem regarding those who <i>do</i> PvP primarily for titles.  Those kinds of players quite often resort to underhanded, cheesy, or incredibly annoying tactics to secure their shiny title, and this comes at the exclusion of what many of us consider to be "good PvP".  Cloud camping, cloud hopping, carpet bugging, zone hopping, out of group high-title baiting near zone/cloud points, chasing someone for <b>fifteen minutes</b> across half the world, etc, etc, etc.  There are too many underhanded tactics to even mention, that's a different thread topic in itself. =) Look, I'm not saying that we will instantly get rid of all the negative aspects of PvP if we give people the options to reset their fame to 0.  I'm not that naieve.  I do firmly believe though (and this is based on a year of experience PvPing) that <i>most</i> of the problems with the way the PvP dynamic plays out right now are rooted in the title/fame system.  I want an environment where I can expect a reasonable chance of finding some good group vs group or 1v1 PvP out in the wild.  Not sitting next to a dock, zoneline, or cloud.  Not based around "who's gonna run first" in a title war. Will people still cloud camp or resort to any of those other tactics?  Sure.  But the majority of people will realize quickly enough that it's not worth it anymore, and the overall dynamic <i>will</i> improve. And then maybe we won't have this feeling anymore, this feeling that we're on a downward slope and looking at a dead PvP server 6-12 months from now.  I'd like to think we can create an environment that'll be supported and enjoyed by a majority of the playerbase for years to come.

Bozidar
05-23-2007, 04:05 AM
<cite>Firamas wrote:</cite><blockquote>Will people still cloud camp or resort to any of those other tactics?  Sure.  But the majority of people will realize quickly enough that it's not worth it anymore, and the overall dynamic <i>will</i> improve.</blockquote><p>I disagree with your assessment.  People will find another thing to focus on and /flex about.  It will be kill streaks, K vs D ratio, or screen prints of them corpse humping people in a mosiac made to look like William Shatner.</p><p>The same people who pull lame [Removed for Content] tactics for the sake of titles will find another reason to be lame cheap no-skill pvpers. </p><p>It's human nature.. </p><p>And i don't feel any downward sprial.. in fact, since coming to naggy, it's been up, and up, and up.. </p>

Microbolt
05-23-2007, 11:21 AM
<blockquote>Firamas wrote: <p>chasing someone for <b>fifteen minutes</b> across half the world, etc, etc, etc.  There are too many underhanded tactics to even mention, that's a different thread topic in itself. =) ... </p><p>Not sitting next to a dock, zoneline, or cloud.  Not based around "who's gonna run first" in a title war. ... Will people still cloud camp or resort to any of those other tactics?  Sure.  But the majority of people will realize quickly enough that it's not worth it anymore, and the overall dynamic <i>will</i> improve. </p></blockquote><p> Your giving into them by running from them.  All you have to do is stand your groud and beat them a few times then the will be scared of losing fame from you and you will never have to deal with them again.  Your on a PvP server so dont run =D</p><p>On the second thing quoted above.  Dont fight at zonelines, clouds, and docks :)  Trust me, if there is no pvp there they <b>will</b> leave.  Another thing is fighting at zoneline will be less of a problem with GU35 coming out today.  People get literally thrown 10 meters back from a zone line if they are engaged in PvP :)</p><p>On the 3rd item above.  Its not worth it now.  It so easy just to avoid those locations.  If you want PvP avoid KoS or only fight on the larger areas like the main island of each zone.  That way you have plenty of room to kill them before they could reach the could.</p><p>Seems like most of the things you have concerns about are because you have the <i>wrong mindset</i> in looking for PvP.  There is <u>plenty</u> of quality PvP out there your just looking in the wrong places :)  </p><p>Took me a while to realize how useless titles really are.  If in your mind you really dont care about them and ignore them then the PvP experience really does get better :)  We dont need to take devs off of creating new content or fixing bugs to fix something that <i>really doesn't even matter.</i></p><p><i><span style="font-size: xx-small">edited to correct a spelling error =D</span></i></p>

Microbolt
05-23-2007, 11:31 AM
<blockquote><p>Firamas wrote:</p><p>Not based around "who's gonna run first" in a title war.</p></blockquote><p>Another thing,  people run for other reasons other than title.  I cannot count how many times an lower title that me who had no chance for fame lost ran without even engaging.  It's human nature to run when you think the odds are not in your favor.  Heck its not human nature thats every living organism.  Ever try to sqash a bug and it not run if you miss?  Or has a mouse ever just gave into the cat and not run?  This is PvP, survival of the fitest.  People are going to run if they are scared or think the odds are in there favor.</p><p>Another side of it too is:  Imagine if they abolished the title system completely.  Whats going to keep that annoying person to come up and just hit you for no reason knowing full and well that he will not win.  If there are no penalties for dying then there is no reason to not engage anyone.  The title system in part creates a sence of danger that keeps the game interesting instead of a mindless game of pushing buttons.</p>

Bozidar
05-23-2007, 11:35 AM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote> <blockquote>Firamas wrote: <p>chasing someone for <b>fifteen minutes</b> across half the world, etc, etc, etc.  There are too many underhanded tactics to even mention, that's a different thread topic in itself. =) </p></blockquote><p> Your giving into them by running from them.  All you have to do is stand your groud and beat them a few times then the will be scared of losing fame from you and you will never have to deal with them again.  Your on a PvP server so dont run =D</p></blockquote>uhhh.. .he didn't say he was running from people, i don't think.  I'm pretty sure he meant chasing his prey..

Fearborn
05-23-2007, 12:33 PM
<cite>Deancs wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Ok I dont think you thought this one through yourselves. If this system is implemented it will be exploited to the fullest, and very easily I might add. Just think about it for a minute. </p><p>I have a better solution that I have petitioned SOE to do in other posts. </p><p>There is a simple solution that already has the mechanics set in place in the game.</p><p>IMPLEMENT MORE FAME/INFAMY LOSS</p><p><b>1)</b> Zoning- The mechanic is already in game that notifies when someone has dishonorably fled. Just tack on some fame loss for this. This little thing would change PVP dramatically. </p><p><b>2)</b> Groups and Raids- If a group or raid attacks a single target or smaller raid then there is no fame from that  target. This would promote more single player pvp and prevent guilds from raiding on single targets and groups. The game mechanic is already in place for pve raids and would just need a little tweaking.</p><p><b>3) </b>Running- Add an fame/infamy loss for people who run from a fight after engaged in combat. This would help the plate wearers in pvp. This game mechanic might be a little hard to set into place, but shouldnt be that difficult to determine who the one that ran is.  The mechanic is somewhat in place, the same mechanic that takes you out of combat. </p><p>These three little improvements would increase the pvp experience dramatically. If you take away titles altogether it will cause the majority of pvpers to leave the game. So we expound on what they love to do. Put a little challenge to titles. Then we will really know who the real champions are.</p></blockquote><p>I first wanna say that Become's idea looks like a good one to me.  If people wanna PvP for the sake of PvP, then great.  It's the guys who spend all day zone hopping and exploiting and hiding, only to come out in force when they hear of some green con infamy thats questing in some nearby zone (Many similar annoying situations like this caused by the titles system).</p><p> Also the above suggestions are good ones, but there are certain issues.  </p><p>Ever accidetally zoned when fighting near a line by clicking on it by mistake?  I've done it a few times and would be annoyed if that caused me loss.  Also, I feel it is fair to zone (When possible) if a 1 vs 1 fight suddenly becomes a 1 vs 6 fight (seems like this will soon not be possible).</p><p>The group or raid fame idea would be very complex I feel, but might work.  Certain exploits would become apparent, such as people just dropping group and regrouping according to the size of the opposition (I.e. you see 2 opponents, you disband your group of 6 into 3 groups of 2 and still whup them).  The problem certainly does need to be addressed, but to be honest the main advantage of an army in war is the ability to successfully field a strong force and manage the logistics of this.  Anyone who can consistently get a strong group out has my envy <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Running, as it stands, is not a bad thing.  It looks like you are hoping for a situation where any fight you engage in will always be fought to the death, with the stronger group/individual always coming out on top.  I feel the little guy should have a chance of not only attacking, but also of running if it is clear they are outgunned.  If I am questing on my Warden and I get jumped, I want to be able to heal and run away.  I like running, as it is an integral part of any combat situation.  I dont, however, like huge disparities in combat run speed.</p><p>Personally, I think that Greenion some time back proposed a more complex yet compelling system for fame and titles.  For example, take the chess ranking system, its a fairly complex calculation and takes many factors into account.</p><p>Fame and titles should be based on number of previous kills, the relative infamy of the opponent, the situation (how many people involved in the attack), the relative strengths of each opponent, the classes etc. </p>

Fleaba
05-23-2007, 12:39 PM
<p>I know I've had times I've wanted to lose my title. I don't mind losing any one on one fights, heck lots of times I jump into a group of peeps swinging away just to slow there fame farming down. Alas, sometimes it really jerks my frog when I get face stomped by the usual fame farming groups and give them fame.... Or the assasin who pops up on me, slaps me around, gets my fame and then goes and parks himself on the docks until decap is back up....absolutely refusing to come back out for a rematch.</p><p>I've heard screams of anger over vent when someone loses a title, fame, etc. The title situation could use some tweaks, but I have no good suggestions on how to do so. Myself, I don't care about my title...I do however hate giving fame to the farmers.</p>

Lowell_high
05-23-2007, 05:41 PM
<p>I just made a thread about this.. didnt see this thread.</p><p>Totally need a /reset title command, imo.</p>

Firam
05-23-2007, 10:44 PM
[email protected] wrote:<blockquote><p>Another thing,  people run for other reasons other than title.  I cannot count how many times an lower title that me who had no chance for fame lost ran without even engaging.  It's human nature to run when you think the odds are not in your favor.  Heck its not human nature thats every living organism.  Ever try to sqash a bug and it not run if you miss?  Or has a mouse ever just gave into the cat and not run?  This is PvP, survival of the fitest.  People are going to run if they are scared or think the odds are in there favor.</p><p>Another side of it too is:  Imagine if they abolished the title system completely.  Whats going to keep that annoying person to come up and just hit you for no reason knowing full and well that he will not win.  If there are no penalties for dying then there is no reason to not engage anyone.  The title system in part creates a sence of danger that keeps the game interesting instead of a mindless game of pushing buttons.</p></blockquote> These two paragraphs seem kind of contradictory.  In the first, you offer up the point that people fight (or run) for other reasons than titles.  In the second, you insinuate that the removal of titles would take away all penalties for dying.  Not sure what your overall message is here. I honestly don't see how PvP would move towards "a mindless game of pushing buttons" just because one or more of the people involved didn't have a little word in front of their character's name... can you provide some more insight as to why you think this is the case?  The "sense of danger" doesn't (or shouldn't) come from the fact that the little word in front of your name might change if you get killed; it's quite simply the fact that you <i>can</i> be killed by another player.  I've played plenty of PVE as well, believe me, just knowing that you can be hunted is enough to completely change the dynamic.  This title-centric mindset/playstyle is precisely what I want to the ability to option out of. People run for all kinds of reasons.  I understand that.  I'm not blind to the reality of this game.  However, if you (or anyone) can sit there and honestly tell me that titles do more good than harm for the PvP dynamic, then I will kindly ask you to support that by actually analyzing the "other half" of the argument and consider the totality of damage that fame-hungry groups really inflict. In a related vein, think about this: Why are people willing to pay 2-4 plat (per fame hit) to farm fame off someone?  Doesn't this strike you as a somewhat corrupt system?  I think it's shameful.

Norrsken
05-24-2007, 03:41 AM
<cite>Firamas wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] wrote:<blockquote><p>Another thing,  people run for other reasons other than title.  I cannot count how many times an lower title that me who had no chance for fame lost ran without even engaging.  It's human nature to run when you think the odds are not in your favor.  Heck its not human nature thats every living organism.  Ever try to sqash a bug and it not run if you miss?  Or has a mouse ever just gave into the cat and not run?  This is PvP, survival of the fitest.  People are going to run if they are scared or think the odds are in there favor.</p><p>Another side of it too is:  Imagine if they abolished the title system completely.  Whats going to keep that annoying person to come up and just hit you for no reason knowing full and well that he will not win.  If there are no penalties for dying then there is no reason to not engage anyone.  The title system in part creates a sence of danger that keeps the game interesting instead of a mindless game of pushing buttons.</p></blockquote> In a related vein, think about this: Why are people willing to pay 2-4 plat (per fame hit) to farm fame off someone?  Doesn't this strike you as a somewhat corrupt system?  I think it's shameful. </blockquote>I like it, means I can get masters from selling my stupid title to people that havent got the skill to get one themselves. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Firam
05-25-2007, 12:50 AM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><cite>Firamas wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] wrote:<blockquote><p>Another thing,  people run for other reasons other than title.  I cannot count how many times an lower title that me who had no chance for fame lost ran without even engaging.  It's human nature to run when you think the odds are not in your favor.  Heck its not human nature thats every living organism.  Ever try to sqash a bug and it not run if you miss?  Or has a mouse ever just gave into the cat and not run?  This is PvP, survival of the fitest.  People are going to run if they are scared or think the odds are in there favor.</p><p>Another side of it too is:  Imagine if they abolished the title system completely.  Whats going to keep that annoying person to come up and just hit you for no reason knowing full and well that he will not win.  If there are no penalties for dying then there is no reason to not engage anyone.  The title system in part creates a sence of danger that keeps the game interesting instead of a mindless game of pushing buttons.</p></blockquote> In a related vein, think about this: Why are people willing to pay 2-4 plat (per fame hit) to farm fame off someone?  Doesn't this strike you as a somewhat corrupt system?  I think it's shameful. </blockquote>I like it, means I can get masters from selling my stupid title to people that havent got the skill to get one themselves. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote>And I submit that this is at the heart of the problem!  People are willing to pay large amounts of platinum to cheat their way to a title that <i>doesn't affect their killing potential at all</i>.  These same people are not going to contribute well to what I would consider a "healthy" PvP dynamic when they <i>do</i> go out to fight for real.