PDA

View Full Version : Tanking Stance: Offense or Defense?


DwarvesR
05-15-2007, 07:49 AM
<p>I was going to put this in a reply to another post, but I think it actually deserves its own thread instead.</p><p>I'm curious as to why so many SK's say that they tank in defensive stance.  With the diminshing returns the mit difference is only 3-4% and is more than made up for by the mit buff from your healer.  Sure, you avoid less too, but that just means you get more hate and damage done to the mob via your Caress line (which crits according to your spell crit rate, in case you haven't noticed).  </p><p>In short, I *want* to get hit in order to gain more aggro.  And no healer has ever complained that I'm too hard to heal, not even with a single healer vs ^^^ mobs that were orange to me.  And this was before I had Reaver and helped with the heals. . . .  Since getting Reaver, healers comment on how easy I am to keep healed, even vs multiple encounters of yellow ^^^ or heroic groups. . . and I'm using Pox Sword the whole time. </p><p>Granted, I've been tanking things like DoF instances, CoI, and most recently BG and SoS, so the mobs aren't that hard of hitters, but so far I haven't seen anything that makes me think that as I get higher than my current 63 that the higher level instances will be any harder.  Maybe HoF with the Debilitate, but that'll kill anyone. . . .</p><p>And in case you're wondering, I'm holding aggro just fine.  I have the 21 points in the hate line to increase Caress and Catostrophic Slam hate amounts, plus the ones to reduce the resistability of my taunts and the group hate siphon, and I know they help.  PU groupmates send me tells saying they are raid guild MT guards on their mains and that they think I'm doing a bang-up job.  In SoS the other night an assassin mentioned in group chat that he'd not managed to pull aggro off me all night, the wizard never did either, the other assassin pulled it 2x, but that was because he hit assassinate on the pull becuz he wanted to test me (and yes, I grabbed aggro from him both times.  Rescue and Embrace ftw!).  That assassin was one of the "my main's a guard" ones, and he further went on to say I'd been "near perfect all night" and that he was testing me on purpose.</p><p>All in offense stance.</p><p>So my question is. . . . why defense stance?  You miss more with the reduction in attack skills, you do less damage on spells due to loss of 197 INT, plus you are resisted on the spells more with the loss of the disruption buff.  And with the higher avoidance you lose the hits that proc Caress and therefore gain less hate from that too.  All for a 3 *maybe* 4% gain in mitigation?  It just sounds like too many penalties all the way across the board, for a very marginal increase in mitigation and avoidance.</p><p>And becuz this does seem to make a difference to some people -- Full Xegonite Devout, Full Moonstone Jewelry, Xegonite Kite Shield, Blade of the Bixies for gear.  And for skills, I have Despoiling Mist, Mana Sieve, Tap Veins, and all skills 57-63 at AD3 or M1.  All the rest a mix of Ad1 and App4 (yes, I even have some App4's I'm still using until they'll be replaced by an AD3 in a higher level.)  No legendary, no fabled.  Not yet, anyway. . . .  That will come later.</p><p>So anyway . . . can anyone tell me a true benefit for using defense stance?  Other than if I'm called on to tank a raid (not likely in my guild), can anyone tell me someplace with "only" heroic content I absolutely will have to be in defense stance to be able to survive tanking a group?</p>

Angelow
05-15-2007, 09:05 AM
<p>For non raids at this point in my SK's life I agree with you and use offensive stance for pretty much all my tanking.  However not long agro (and still do situationally) I used def stance alot when doing the truly difficult single group stuff, like MM Castle and Nizara.  In places like that the avoidance can often become a must.  Its not as much the miti increase as it is the boost to avoidance and to a lesser extent the wisdom bonus to add onto resists is nice.</p><p>Overall the answer is always tank in offensive if you can get away with it, use defensive when you have to in order to not die.  Alot of what you need to do will be dependant on your healer(s) and their ability, as well as the difficulty of the dungeon/instance you are in.</p>

Beldin_
05-15-2007, 09:18 AM
I normally use offense stance for green/blue stuff, and change to defense when the mobs are white/yellow and you may have to handle 2-3 triple-ups at once. It also depends a little on the group setup, mostly our groups are not really balanced and we often lack on good DDs where in the end i have to do as much damage like the rest of the group together <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Wytie
05-15-2007, 09:55 AM
<p>Well heres the one main and most important reason i think we should always tank in defensive... <i><u>Aggression</u></i> <i>the defensive stance improves our aggression which makes our taunts harder to resist, and if your taanking the last thing you want is your means of holding agro to get resisted.</i></p><p>Another is it add a nice amount to resist and mit if your a well geared player it add a nice amount to mit and alot to avoid....  tanks should never tank in offensive unless the zone is so easy that you can fly threw it no problem even still let DPS do its role and tanks do theres makes the healers job alot easier nobody wants to pissoff the healer.....</p>

DwarvesR
05-15-2007, 10:17 AM
<cite>Wytie wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Well heres the one main and most important reason i think we should always tank in defensive... <i><u>Aggression</u></i> <i>the defensive stance improves our aggression which makes our taunts harder to resist, and if your taanking the last thing you want is your means of holding agro to get resisted.</i></p><p>Another is it add a nice amount to resist and mit if your a well geared player it add a nice amount to mit and alot to avoid....  tanks should never tank in offensive unless the zone is so easy that you can fly threw it no problem even still let DPS do its role and tanks do theres makes the healers job alot easier nobody wants to pissoff the healer.....</p></blockquote><p>The agression buff isn't very big though, and the 6 aa's I have in both taunts vs resistability seem to more than completely make up for any deficiency in aggression skill.  Add that I hit more often, my spells are resisted less and do more damage than in defense stance and. . . . agression skill seems a very poor reason to go into defense stance.  The other day in SoS, I think my taunts were resisted a total of 3 times in 4 hours.  Might have been more, but that's all I noticed.  I never noticed any of the oranges ever resisting me for taunts or spells.  And I hit most attacks too with the attack skill buffs too.  Sure in defense stance I might be resisted a little less on the taunts (but less than zero is still zero in practical terms) but then I'd also be getting more spell resists and misses on my swings and ca's.  Again. . . defense stance seems a penalty vs the oranges, not a help.</p><p>At least, so it seems to me. </p>

Wytie
05-15-2007, 11:06 AM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><cite>Wytie wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Well heres the one main and most important reason i think we should always tank in defensive... <i><u>Aggression</u></i> <i>the defensive stance improves our aggression which makes our taunts harder to resist, and if your taanking the last thing you want is your means of holding agro to get resisted.</i></p><p>Another is it add a nice amount to resist and mit if your a well geared player it add a nice amount to mit and alot to avoid....  tanks should never tank in offensive unless the zone is so easy that you can fly threw it no problem even still let DPS do its role and tanks do theres makes the healers job alot easier nobody wants to pissoff the healer.....</p></blockquote><p>The agression buff isn't very big though, and the 6 aa's I have in both taunts vs resistability seem to more than completely make up for any deficiency in aggression skill.  Add that I hit more often, my spells are resisted less and do more damage than in defense stance and. . . . agression skill seems a very poor reason to go into defense stance.  The other day in SoS, I think my taunts were resisted a total of 3 times in 4 hours.  Might have been more, but that's all I noticed.  I never noticed any of the oranges ever resisting me for taunts or spells.  And I hit most attacks too with the attack skill buffs too.  Sure in defense stance I might be resisted a little less on the taunts (but less than zero is still zero in practical terms) but then I'd also be getting more spell resists and misses on my swings and ca's.  Again. . . defense stance seems a penalty vs the oranges, not a help.</p><p>At least, so it seems to me. </p></blockquote><p>do you tank with a 2 H too? LOL  j/k i hope not...</p><p>your avoidance drops alot in offensive and in tanking thats means alot, you should efinatly go with what works best for you but if i was the only helaer in your group and you were the tank in offensive i would kick your ars. period cause your making my job twice as hard as it should have to be, you may be right the agression may not be much but it depends on the mob you fight, and how they may debuff you, we only have 1 encounter taunt and i dont want it to ever get resisted if im tanking ever, you may not notice but it does if you fight a 6 mob encounter and you pull with it you wont notice 1 or 2 of them resisting it but it happens maybe not alot but 1 time is to many for me IMO</p><p>just from past refence i can solo blue names in defensive do you know what happens if i forget to swap to definsive and try to solo that same name?   equals me a dead SK that right there is proof enough for me... </p>

CHIMPNOODLE.
05-15-2007, 11:57 AM
<p>Until I got my mitigation/stats/avoid/resists to decent levels....I pretty much always tanked in defensive. It was neccessary.</p><p>Now I run in offensive pretty much 100% of the time outside of raids, with the 2 exceptions of possibly Nizara and CMM...depending on my group (chanter..or not <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  )</p><p>Most raid zones I run in offensive with the exception of some EOF raid named that I find hit particularly hard, or where the fights can drag a bit ....a couple of particularly hard hitting non-named encounters as well. </p><p>I run in offensive on a good amount of raid named as well though, particularly on mem-wipers like Tarinax (though I'll stay in defensive for Treyloth for example). Tanked a couple of them in offensive/2 hander as well...like <a href="http://eq2.raidmobs.com/mobs_detailed.php?mob_id=231" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">V'Tekla K'Zalk</a> in MIS (though I started the fight in defensive until the AOE adds were dead). My Mitigation in Offensive stance is ~5800 pre-temp buffs though (~5600 with 2 hander/offensive pre-temp buffs), so defensive is overkill most of the time. In defensive I'm around 6400 Miti pre-temp buffs.</p><p>It's a judgement call which stance to be in though...and it doesn't only depend on you. It definitely depends on your group/raid mates abilities/power levels too...and on the mobs you're fighting. You don't want to make things harder on your pals than is needed.</p>

Nocifer Deathblade
05-15-2007, 03:25 PM
<p>Nice thing about SK is that they have 4 different kind of tanking power:</p><p>Offense stance+2h = Max offensive power, lowest tank power.. Excellent for tanking in easy contents for max kill speed. Best offense = least damage taken. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p><p>Defensive stance+2h </p><p>Offense stance + 1h/shield</p><p>Def stance+ 1h/shield = Max defensive power, lowest dps possible.. Excellent for tanking in most difficult areas especially raids or yellow conned mobs and depends on group mix.</p><p>I switch in those 4 different styles depends on group mix and what content that I am tanking.. Once you know how to use right kind of tank power out of 4 possible combinations then you will be a good SK taking advantage of best potential..  SK is a such verstile class to play. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I find that I play in offense stance and 2h most of the time cuz I solo and mostly in group in easy contents taking advantage of awesome trample power to go with that style of 2h+off stance..   I hardly raid soo.. I do defensive and 1h/shield like  in Unrest, MM castle, etc  though if I need resists and milking out some extra mitigation/avoidance and let dps classes do their dps job while I do my tank job..</p>

Saroun
05-15-2007, 04:45 PM
Which stance you are in depends on the zone and your group.  I will tank most instances in Offensive with a 2hander.  If the healers are having trouble keeping up, move to 1h/shield, and if they still have problems go to defensive.  If you are always in Def w/1h&shield you will be wasting DPS and boring your healers.  And even worse, if you get your healers used to a cake walk, they might not be on the ball if you get a nasty pull/hard hitting named.

Wytie
05-15-2007, 05:20 PM
<cite>Saroun wrote:</cite><blockquote>Which stance you are in depends on the zone and your group.  I will tank most instances in Offensive with a 2hander.  If the healers are having trouble keeping up, move to 1h/shield, and if they still have problems go to defensive.  If you are always in Def w/1h&shield you will be wasting DPS and boring your healers.  And even worse, if you get your healers used to a cake walk, they might not be on the ball if you get a nasty pull/hard hitting named.</blockquote><p> well if you can tank w a 2h and in offensive you might as well run the instance by your self you dont really need a group now do you <img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>but once you move away from the newb instances and hit the real zones, unrest/MMC ect you better have a shield and be in definsive if your tanking otherwise farm that easy instance by yourself or let the warlock tank then cause the little amount of added dps is crap to the amount of survivablity you gain if you tank you get most the buffs anyway so the little you add to yourself is crap compared to the group buffing you IMO</p>

ZhouYu
05-15-2007, 05:55 PM
<i>IMO you have to look at your group set up. The defensive stance we use is not just for the extra 5% miT, it is also for the 10% avoidance. It all depends on your group set up. For example if I have a defiler and a druid, I stay in offensive stance while tanking, though if I only have 1 healer I go to defensive stance. If I got 2 sister healers I go in defensive stance. It all depends on the group imo.</i>

Saroun
05-15-2007, 06:47 PM
<cite>Wytie wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Saroun wrote:</cite><blockquote>Which stance you are in depends on the zone and your group.  I will tank most instances in Offensive with a 2hander.  If the healers are having trouble keeping up, move to 1h/shield, and if they still have problems go to defensive.  If you are always in Def w/1h&shield you will be wasting DPS and boring your healers.  And even worse, if you get your healers used to a cake walk, they might not be on the ball if you get a nasty pull/hard hitting named.</blockquote><p> well if you can tank w a 2h and in offensive you might as well run the instance by your self you dont really need a group now do you <img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>but once you move away from the newb instances and hit the real zones, unrest/MMC ect you better have a shield and be in definsive if your tanking otherwise farm that easy instance by yourself or let the warlock tank then cause the little amount of added dps is crap to the amount of survivablity you gain if you tank you get most the buffs anyway so the little you add to yourself is crap compared to the group buffing you IMO</p></blockquote>Uninformed sarcastic remarks don't help anyone.  With a good group, I tank all but the names in unrest in Offensive with my 2hander.   When we do Mistmoore castle I switch to Offensive w/ 1h & shield, and defensive for names.  If you don't see a good increase in DPS going from Def to Off, especially going to 2handed, you might want to re-evaluate how you play your SK.

Throden
05-15-2007, 07:30 PM
personal, im usualy in offensive stance, except for raids.  i usualy swap wepons alot tho between my 2h, and my axe and sympol so i can cast all of my ca's and spells.  this puts out a little more dps and keeps me hasted most of the time from the axe aa.  granted it makes more of a power drain but its a noticable difference.

Antryg Mistrose
05-15-2007, 08:23 PM
I don't raid much as a SK (check my signature and you'll see why).  So for the heroic content that I mainly do I use 2 stances - Offensive with axe/hammer & shield, Defensive with the same. Str/Sta lines, so I keep swapping weapons (equiping macros on swift axe and hammerground/tap veins make it very simple).  Normally I'll stay in offensive until/unless I start taking too much damage.  I don't lose shield bash, and if assisting (happens VERY infrequently) its fewer incombat gear changes to take over. I'm puzzled by people who use a 2 hander in defensive stance? What are the benefits of that? 'cause I'm blowed if I can see any.  Is this because you have a much better 2 hander than 1 handers?  It would have to be down right uber to make up for the loss of 200Int on offensive abilities,  a shield on defensive abilities, and no shield bash on hate gain.

Beldin_
05-15-2007, 08:57 PM
Antryg Mistrose wrote: <blockquote>I'm puzzled by people who use a 2 hander in defensive stance? What are the benefits of that? 'cause I'm blowed if I can see any.  Is this because you have a much better 2 hander than 1 handers?  It would have to be down right uber to make up for the loss of 200Int on offensive abilities,  a shield on defensive abilities, and no shield bash on hate gain.</blockquote><p>Hehe.. yeah .. i also see no benefit in that. When i tank i always use a shield and only switch between the stances .. the main damage comes from my AoEs and not from autoattack, so i really can't see what a little more autoattack damage brings over +200 int and the loss of 10% avoidance.</p><p>Btw.: most of the times when i do instances i have a fury in group, so the int loss from defense doesn't matter that much <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p>

ZhouYu
05-15-2007, 10:41 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>Antryg Mistrose wrote: <blockquote>I'm puzzled by people who use a 2 hander in defensive stance? What are the benefits of that? 'cause I'm blowed if I can see any.  Is this because you have a much better 2 hander than 1 handers?  It would have to be down right uber to make up for the loss of 200Int on offensive abilities,  a shield on defensive abilities, and no shield bash on hate gain.</blockquote><p>Hehe.. yeah .. i also see no benefit in that. When i tank i always use a shield and only switch between the stances .. the main damage comes from my AoEs and not from autoattack, so i really can't see what a little more autoattack damage brings over +200 int and the loss of 10% avoidance.</p><p>Btw.: most of the times when i do instances i have a fury in group, so the int loss from defense doesn't matter that much <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p></blockquote><p><i>yes my girlfriend is a well geared play (and may i say one of the best pvp furies on Vox) pre-eof that was our trick, she would cover the intel loss for me so i could stay in defensive stance in pvp. However ever since EoF I find it that when i'm on offensive stance my spells don't get resist nearlyas often as when I'm in defensive stance. </i></p><p><i>Anyway I totally agree with your post and the other guy's. What is the point of a 2handed indefensive stance ....in fact the only time I use my 2handed is when im fighting a druid one on one, or some kind of other healer or a paladin ..and ONLY in one on one encounters with those classes is when I use my 2handed. Otherthan that its really useless.</i> </p>

Wytie
05-16-2007, 01:04 AM
<cite>Saroun wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wytie wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Saroun wrote:</cite><blockquote>Which stance you are in depends on the zone and your group.  I will tank most instances in Offensive with a 2hander.  If the healers are having trouble keeping up, move to 1h/shield, and if they still have problems go to defensive.  If you are always in Def w/1h&shield you will be wasting DPS and boring your healers.  And even worse, if you get your healers used to a cake walk, they might not be on the ball if you get a nasty pull/hard hitting named.</blockquote><p> well if you can tank w a 2h and in offensive you might as well run the instance by your self you dont really need a group now do you <img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>but once you move away from the newb instances and hit the real zones, unrest/MMC ect you better have a shield and be in definsive if your tanking otherwise farm that easy instance by yourself or let the warlock tank then cause the little amount of added dps is crap to the amount of survivablity you gain if you tank you get most the buffs anyway so the little you add to yourself is crap compared to the group buffing you IMO</p></blockquote>Uninformed sarcastic remarks don't help anyone.  With a good group, I tank all but the names in unrest in Offensive with my 2hander.   When we do Mistmoore castle I switch to Offensive w/ 1h & shield, and defensive for names.  If you don't see a good increase in DPS going from Def to Off, especially going to 2handed, you might want to re-evaluate how you play your SK. </blockquote>Ok newb here ya go, see if your intell is already high the extra 200 ish is nice but if its already 350 400 its not that big a deal after group buffed 550 600 in defensive( i bet you only got 250 intell self buffed in offensive with 500 str)  lol i could out dps you in defensive  <img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, if your tanking your role isnt dps its agro control if you tell me you tank all but names in MMC and unrest in offensive.... your the biggest [Removed for Content] EVER yes EVER yea maybe with 3 healers but dam. I would hate to be your healer  <img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> In offensive stance in unrest and MMC you would die first pull...  your good group is 3 or 4 healers pffff  how about you be a tank instead of dps and drop thoses to extra healers for scouts, and finish in half the time..... 

Saroun
05-16-2007, 01:37 AM
<cite>Wytie wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Saroun wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wytie wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Saroun wrote:</cite><blockquote>Which stance you are in depends on the zone and your group.  I will tank most instances in Offensive with a 2hander.  If the healers are having trouble keeping up, move to 1h/shield, and if they still have problems go to defensive.  If you are always in Def w/1h&shield you will be wasting DPS and boring your healers.  And even worse, if you get your healers used to a cake walk, they might not be on the ball if you get a nasty pull/hard hitting named.</blockquote><p> well if you can tank w a 2h and in offensive you might as well run the instance by your self you dont really need a group now do you <img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>but once you move away from the newb instances and hit the real zones, unrest/MMC ect you better have a shield and be in definsive if your tanking otherwise farm that easy instance by yourself or let the warlock tank then cause the little amount of added dps is crap to the amount of survivablity you gain if you tank you get most the buffs anyway so the little you add to yourself is crap compared to the group buffing you IMO</p></blockquote>Uninformed sarcastic remarks don't help anyone.  With a good group, I tank all but the names in unrest in Offensive with my 2hander.   When we do Mistmoore castle I switch to Offensive w/ 1h & shield, and defensive for names.  If you don't see a good increase in DPS going from Def to Off, especially going to 2handed, you might want to re-evaluate how you play your SK. </blockquote>Ok newb here ya go, see if your intell is already high the extra 200 ish is nice but if its already 350 400 its not that big a deal after group buffed 550 600 in defensive( i bet you only got 250 intell self buffed in offensive with 500 str)  lol i could out dps you in defensive  <img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, if your tanking your role isnt dps its agro control if you tell me you tank all but names in MMC and unrest in offensive.... your the biggest [Removed for Content] EVER yes EVER yea maybe with 3 healers but dam. I would hate to be your healer  <img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> In offensive stance in unrest and MMC you would die first pull...  your good group is 3 or 4 healers pffff  how about you be a tank instead of dps and drop thoses to extra healers for scouts, and finish in half the time.....  </blockquote>Too bad you can't turn your arrogance into worthwhile information, you might be good for something.  One good healer is all you need for unrest or MMC, two and it's a cake walk.  If you are sticking yourself in Defensive all the time you are wasting added utility and slowing your group down.  If you knew as much as you think, you'd know that alot of a SK's aggro control is DPS, but apparently your too busy rolling your eyes.  Back to the original poster, go with what your group can do.  If you aren't familiar with the place or it's a pickup start out in defensive.  If you see that your health isn't going down, and the healers aren't doing much, start going offensive and see how it goes.  No point buffing mitigation/avoidance at the expense added DPS if you don't need to.

Beldin_
05-16-2007, 07:43 AM
<cite>Wytie wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok newb here ya go,  <p> lol i could out dps you in defensive  <img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, </p></blockquote><p>Am i wrong to suspect you 1. play on a PvP-Server and you 2. played WoW before ? </p><p>I don't know why .. but I just wonder ..</p>

Jenguro
05-16-2007, 08:59 AM
<p>My main is a 70 Defiler, so this is my perspective:</p><p>I prevent damage through wards, which means that mitigation, avoidance, parry, block, etc. are the most important statistics in a tank to me.  It doesn't matter if a tank can heal himself, because as soon as a ward is dropping I need to cast another.   For that reason I prefer the tank to be in defensive most of the time, the exception being if the zone is easy (e.g. Kaladim).  I'm not so well equipped that I think MMC or Unrest is "easy", and I prefer a second healer or enchanter there if possible.  I usually play in pick up groups, so the quality of the tank and other players varies widely, so I've just come to prefer defensive.  If it's a well equipped tank that I know, that could change (e.g. I ran OOB about a week ago with a Paladin using a 2h, and presumably in offensive).  I wouldn't be likely to say anything unless I was having trouble keeping up.</p>

DwarvesR
05-16-2007, 10:37 AM
<p>Thanks for your input everyone.  I especially appreciate the healer perspective too, Jengurorm.  </p><p>I think Ill keep doing what I've been doing which has been 1h+board in offense stance, and if that starts getting iffy, see how def stance makes it different.  Haven't needed def yet, but as I mentioned. . haven't really been doing hard zones either.</p><p>And as an aside to Jengu -- my healer at 1st in that group I described was a 63 defiler.  She had to leave and we replaced her with a 58 defiler.  It was still fine, all the way down to the level 68 mobs that were orange to me and red to the healer.  I have a 54 defiler too, and I totally see where you're coming from on the mitigation making the wards last longer, so I'm gona chalk up how wll we did to having an easy zone, plus we had some really nice dps.  Me tanking offense with INT buffed to mid 700's, IIRC, plus a wizard, 2 assassins, a bruiser, and a defiler.   Most fights were done in 10 seconds or less -- I'm sure that had something to do with it too. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>It'll be interesting to see if/how my attitude changes based on group make-up and zone difficulty as I level up.</p>

Nocifer Deathblade
05-16-2007, 12:21 PM
Antryg Mistrose wrote: <blockquote> I'm puzzled by people who use a 2 hander in defensive stance? What are the benefits of that? 'cause I'm blowed if I can see any.  Is this because you have a much better 2 hander than 1 handers?  It would have to be down right uber to make up for the loss of 200Int on offensive abilities,  a shield on defensive abilities, and no shield bash on hate gain.</blockquote><p> Yes, I have fabled 2h while still have legendary 1h  so I rely on 2h most of the time as well as it goes very well with trample AA that I got.  I RARELY go defensive stance with 2h though. I usually switch to defensive only in emergency situation like unexpected massive adds or something like that.  In difficult areas, I just go 1h/shield and switch between off or defensive stance in that zone. I go full 2h route in easy areas such as SoS, Kaladim, MM catacomb, etc for example. 1h/shield is mostly inefficient in those zones so just go full 2h and can switch to defensive stance if you demand of it.  Remember.. I got +10 defense on my fabled 2h so my avoidance is only 8% difference by switching to 1h/shield.. </p><p>Sk can do 4 different styles depends on many factors. No 2 Sks are the same. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I would say that 2h with defensive stance is most least used of 4 styles that I would agree but it is still useful in certain situations. </p>

Wytie
05-16-2007, 01:08 PM
<cite>Saroun wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wytie wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Saroun wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wytie wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Saroun wrote:</cite><blockquote>Which stance you are in depends on the zone and your group.  I will tank most instances in Offensive with a 2hander.  If the healers are having trouble keeping up, move to 1h/shield, and if they still have problems go to defensive.  If you are always in Def w/1h&shield you will be wasting DPS and boring your healers.  And even worse, if you get your healers used to a cake walk, they might not be on the ball if you get a nasty pull/hard hitting named.</blockquote><p> well if you can tank w a 2h and in offensive you might as well run the instance by your self you dont really need a group now do you <img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>but once you move away from the newb instances and hit the real zones, unrest/MMC ect you better have a shield and be in definsive if your tanking otherwise farm that easy instance by yourself or let the warlock tank then cause the little amount of added dps is crap to the amount of survivablity you gain if you tank you get most the buffs anyway so the little you add to yourself is crap compared to the group buffing you IMO</p></blockquote>Uninformed sarcastic remarks don't help anyone.  With a good group, I tank all but the names in unrest in Offensive with my 2hander.   When we do Mistmoore castle I switch to Offensive w/ 1h & shield, and defensive for names.  If you don't see a good increase in DPS going from Def to Off, especially going to 2handed, you might want to re-evaluate how you play your SK. </blockquote>Ok newb here ya go, see if your intell is already high the extra 200 ish is nice but if its already 350 400 its not that big a deal after group buffed 550 600 in defensive( i bet you only got 250 intell self buffed in offensive with 500 str)  lol i could out dps you in defensive  <img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, if your tanking your role isnt dps its agro control if you tell me you tank all but names in MMC and unrest in offensive.... your the biggest [Removed for Content] EVER yes EVER yea maybe with 3 healers but dam. I would hate to be your healer  <img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> In offensive stance in unrest and MMC you would die first pull...  your good group is 3 or 4 healers pffff  how about you be a tank instead of dps and drop thoses to extra healers for scouts, and finish in half the time.....  </blockquote>Too bad you can't turn your arrogance into worthwhile information, you might be good for something.  One good healer is all you need for unrest or MMC, two and it's a cake walk.  If you are sticking yourself in Defensive all the time you are wasting added utility and slowing your group down.  If you knew as much as you think, you'd know that alot of a SK's aggro control is DPS, but apparently your too busy rolling your eyes.  Back to the original poster, go with what your group can do.  If you aren't familiar with the place or it's a pickup start out in defensive.  If you see that your health isn't going down, and the healers aren't doing much, start going offensive and see how it goes.  No point buffing mitigation/avoidance at the expense added DPS if you don't need to. </blockquote><p>GJ bro <img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p><p>Read the healers post above like i said before if i was the healer in your group i would just find another tank so i wouldnt burn the hell outa my mana try to keep you and your offensive stance up, more than anything its just common group curtsey which obviously you dont have, which is why our group would find another tank, no wonder we have enough hard of a time as it is being chose for MT its cause of newb like you want to dps in a MT role and give us all a bad rep  <img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p>

Wytie
05-16-2007, 01:17 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><cite>Wytie wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok newb here ya go,  <p> lol i could out dps you in defensive  <img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, </p></blockquote><p>Am i wrong to suspect you 1. play on a PvP-Server and you  <span style="color: #ff0000">YES </span>2. played WoW before ?<span style="color: #ff0000"> NO</span></p><p>I don't know why .. but I just wonder ..</p></blockquote><p>I will tell you this you havent tanked nothing till you tank in pvp, but that just my <i>Opinion. </i>People are alot smarter than dumb npc's, try holding agro with few taunts on a full group who wants nothing more than you healers ars, and do all than in offensive and get own'd quick, but none of this was really relevant to what the OP was talkn about, I was simply stating above that if your MT one should be in a MT role and that would most definaly be in defensive unless it was a easy zone or had more than enough heals but still even in some of thoses cases SK'd should still be defensive to make the healers job a bit easier.</p><p><b> Hell even in easy zones i STILL tank in defensive that way i can pull the whole room and more no problem and let the main dps classes do there job and wipe the instance that much faster.</b></p><p> Bottom line if you tank in offensive you just not doing your job, your trying to do someone elses and thats why SK's get such a bad rap about tanking cause folk dont play there role, <u>more than anything its just group Etiquette</u></p>

Collum
05-16-2007, 02:07 PM
<p>Its situational for me.</p><p>I mostly duo with my wife on her INQ.  (we are only lvl 36)</p><p>If the mobs are non heroic, its offensive. I still use a sitck and board. </p><p>If they are heroic, I am in DEF mode.</p><p>If we are on non heroic mobs and are a few lvls higher than they are, I will use a 2h in offensive. </p>

Saroun
05-16-2007, 03:07 PM
<cite>Wytie wrote:</cite><blockquote> <p>GJ bro <img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p><p>Read the healers post above like i said before if i was the healer in your group i would just find another tank so i wouldnt burn the hell outa my mana try to keep you and your offensive stance up, more than anything its just common group curtsey which obviously you dont have, which is why our group would find another tank, no wonder we have enough hard of a time as it is being chose for MT its cause of newb like you want to dps in a MT role and give us all a bad rep  <img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p></blockquote>I wouldn't be suprised if you would burn through your mana.  If you played a healer as well as it sounds like you play your SK, you would just be spamming heals each fight, if they were needed or not.  If you wanted to be a one trick wonder you should have been a Guardian.  Common group courtesy would be doing what you can to help the group succeed.  If you can't adjust to different situations to do that, and just sit in defensive stance all the time, you don't deserve to be in one.  And try reading the healers post again, this time for comprehension.  He didn't have a problem running with a good tank in Offensive using a 2hander, he just prefered defensive from the pick-up groups he'd been in.  Which is basically what I had said, it's all depends on the group and situation.  Do what works best for the group you are in, if it's offensive or defensive it is all situational.

Nocifer Deathblade
05-16-2007, 03:11 PM
<cite>Wytie wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>GJ bro <img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p><p>Read the healers post above like i said before if i was the healer in your group i would just find another tank so i wouldnt burn the hell outa my mana try to keep you and your offensive stance up, more than anything its just common group curtsey which obviously you dont have, which is why our group would find another tank, no wonder we have enough hard of a time as it is being chose for MT its cause of newb like you want to dps in a MT role and give us all a bad rep  <img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p></blockquote><p> Lol. Good luck and healer might end up getting weaker non-SK tank in the trade even with 1h/shield that tank uses.. I group with my RL defiler all the time going 2h offensive as MT in most areas.  I parsed 40-48% of total heal in most zones all from my self-heal thanks to reaver and lifetaps and adornments..  My defiler pal told me that he had to HEAL more often with other non-SK tank even with 1h/shield AND defensive stance..  He doesn't need to heal me that often. I know what I am doing as Sk for MT utilizing 4 different styles depends on mix, gear and anything..  </p><p>I laughed when a pick up group struggled to get thru a zone with other guardian then replaced with me .  Group said, "OMG! ALot better now and we sure mow down the zone much easier".   Guess what? I used 2h and offensive stance while that guardian used buckler+1h.. Why? It's just cuz of my nice self-heal power and good dps.  Healers never once complained if I used 2h in offense stance or 1h/shield or whatever. They always left me alone as long as I am doing my job correctly in zones that we are doing with great success.. Of course, I wouldn't blame healers if they complained about me IF I am slowing group down and got lot of wipes or whatever.. Good thing it's not a case..  It applies to other SKs as well..   4 styles *ARE* viable and very flexible to fit ANY situations.  I LOVE SK class that is very verstile class with many different roles..</p>

Wytie
05-16-2007, 04:10 PM
Nocifer Deathblade wrote: <blockquote><cite>Wytie wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>GJ bro <img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p><p>Read the healers post above like i said before if i was the healer in your group i would just find another tank so i wouldnt burn the hell outa my mana try to keep you and your offensive stance up, more than anything its just common group curtsey which obviously you dont have, which is why our group would find another tank, no wonder we have enough hard of a time as it is being chose for MT its cause of newb like you want to dps in a MT role and give us all a bad rep  <img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p></blockquote><p> Lol. Good luck and healer might end up getting weaker non-SK tank in the trade even with 1h/shield that tank uses.. I group with my RL defiler all the time going 2h offensive as MT in most areas.  I parsed 40-48% of total heal in most zones all from my self-heal thanks to reaver and lifetaps and adornments..  My defiler pal told me that he had to HEAL more often with other non-SK tank even with 1h/shield AND defensive stance..  He doesn't need to heal me that often. I know what I am doing as Sk for MT utilizing 4 different styles depends on mix, gear and anything..  </p><p>I laughed when a pick up group struggled to get thru a zone with other guardian then replaced with me .  Group said, "OMG! ALot better now and we sure mow down the zone much easier".   Guess what? I used 2h and offensive stance while that guardian used buckler+1h.. Why? It's just cuz of my nice self-heal power and good dps.  Healers never once complained if I used 2h in offense stance or 1h/shield or whatever. They always left me alone as long as I am doing my job correctly in zones that we are doing with great success.. Of course, I wouldn't blame healers if they complained about me IF I am slowing group down and got lot of wipes or whatever.. Good thing it's not a case..  It applies to other SKs as well..   4 styles *ARE* viable and very flexible to fit ANY situations.  I LOVE SK class that is very verstile class with many different roles..</p></blockquote><p>i would have really liked to now where zone you were in??  In your case and the one above you prob were in a very easy zone (which is a waste of time after getting end game gear) and not in a full group sure if its just a SK and one healer your gona need all the dps you can get, best thing about an SK is you can run zones with just a dirge that most have a prob with a healer with.</p><p>All of my statments were in-refernce to tuff T7 zones, where full group were needed, if its an easy T7 zone it can be soloed  as an SK not many classes can do the same <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  </p>

Zanix
05-16-2007, 06:56 PM
<p>hehe poor Humiliation ..hits level 70 and thinks you get Master I 'how to play a SK correctly"</p><p>honestly, OP asked for advice. We all have our experience(s) and what works (or we think) works best for us. </p><p>Personally, I Tank offensively, and get a lot of crap from my healers, but at the end of the day, we die less, the game was (slightly) more challenging and mobs/instance got done quicker.</p><p>Also, on a side note, with decent equipment and items that proc, it doesn't matter if you are def or off. You could be parsing right under the actual priest if you are tanking correctly. </p>

Cow Slayer
05-16-2007, 07:53 PM
on my sk who is on butcherblock i went 64841 str and then 4786 int it seems to work good it makes legoinares smite crit like abominable wrath so its very nice to have Onia 70 sk Butcherblock

Mildavyn
05-16-2007, 09:33 PM
<p>Stances can and SHOULD be changed mid-fight. If I'm going to pull a whole room, I'll start in defensive. While in defensive I pull the room, then once i get to where i'll be tanking, i pop Offensive, drop all my AEs, then go back to defensive so I'm taking less damage.</p><p>If the content is easy it just means you can pull more at once! It doesn't mean you should just hit offensive and keep grinding, you should be pulling more, and STILL swapping stances in and out.</p><p>***DISCLAIMER***</p><p>This is all MY OPINION. Feel free to do whatever you like, you will anyways.</p>

Beldin_
05-16-2007, 10:21 PM
Btw. was the first time in Unrest today .. and tanked all time in defense. Only lost aggro 3-4 times when the wizzy used manaburn, however i mostly had rescue up that time <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> The group had not really good DPS .. Wizzy was top ... next me .. the rest together did less then i did, so in the end i was at least proud that we only had one death at all .. our mystic triggered all the small Billy-dolls in one room and i coulden get aggro fast enough that time <img src="/smilies/136dd33cba83140c7ce38db096d05aed.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 

Mildavyn
05-16-2007, 11:24 PM
Death March FTW!!

Dead Knight
05-17-2007, 03:28 AM
I tank mostly in Offensive Stance, I'm at the point where after group buffs I'm sitting on about 4700 mit with Siphon Armament and 20% Avoidance. If the mobs are green I'll use a 2H, blue and up I go sword and board but stay in offensive. FYI Wytie, Unrest is tankable in offensive stance with 1 healer. I do it all the time, then again I always roll with the same group so we all know our play styles and everyone is mostly fabled. Tanking CMM in Offensive Stance with 1 healer I'm not so sure about, but I'll take your word for it. I'll stick to tanking it in defensive <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.

Mythicman
05-17-2007, 06:35 AM
When I tank, I'm defensive.  The reason why is that, if [expletive hax0red by Raijin] hits the fan, it's not a big deal.  I like to allow my healers to conserve mana as much as possible in any situation.  My role, when I'm tanking, is to stay upright.  If I let my healer conserve power, then, when the 74^^^ wanderer that we didn't see adds, it makes less of a difference, and I don't have to recast, and reequip mid-fight.  In easy zones, I can just pull a whole heck of a lot more and faster.  If I'm tanking, my role isn't DPS.  The small amount of difference it makes to my dps going from 500+ STR and almost 400 INT to 600 INT is not as significant, even when talking about moving through a zone quickly, as my being able to pull a dozen mobs at once and let the real DPSers have their way.  To me, this is a no-brainer.  I guess if it's a low-DPS group to begin with, and an easy zone, I'll throw on my 2-h with 23 haste.  But, really, I don't find myself in that situation very often. This may very well change once I have Reaver.  Not sure though.

Sportak
05-17-2007, 08:50 AM
I tank in defensive stance because I'm doing just that, tanking. My tanking gear is totally different from my dps gear, and the loss of 226 int or whatever it is with Pox Sword doesn't impact me much. Also like a lot of people I group with the same bunch of people all the time so I know the real dps will be doing their job. My group buffed mit is around 6200, and since my wife plays my main healer, the easier her life is, the easier <i>my</i> life is <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Angelow
05-17-2007, 10:16 AM
<p>This is posted most directly in reply to Humiliation.</p><p>As it is clear im in the minority I expect to be flamed for this, but eh, I think I will live.  I personally tank in Offensive stance nearly all fights.  And when i mean im tanking in offensive stance lets be clear on this..... im not talking about OOB or Valdoons or MM Catacombs..... I am specifically talking about MM Castle and Nizara.   I run pickup groups and my regular play group through both zones, almost always in offensive stance.  I run them with either 1 or 2 healers, and generally never use a mezzer.  With adds occuring in MM Castle we still have the ability to come out on top nearly every time.  Last run I did was about 6 hours long with 0 wipes and i think 2 deaths (this included a fight that had a total of 11 mobs that were level 74 on us at one time).   So please dont tell me we CANT do it in offensive stance, we simply can if you play correctly for that style.  Our zone wide dps was 3.8k for the group, of which i parsed 1.2k and didnt die once...... so yeah, I tank in offensive stance, and yes, I may be a tank and tanking is my primary role, but why shouldnt i put up 1.2k sustained dps in a hard fast moving zone when im able to.  Thinking we are JUST tanks, we shouldnt do anything but tank is silly, its our primary focus, but we are a blend of many things, dont pigeon hole yourself if you dont absolutely have to.</p><p>That being said, there are times I tank in defensive stance.  Personally I always start out in Offensive and adjust to defensive as needed.  For example I will run 95% of the time in MM CAstle in offensive, but when above mentioned triple encounter occured I swapped to defensive and popped DM/despoil and tanked like a tank can tank  =D.  However, as soon as the fight was back under manageable DPS inc to me, I swapped back to offensive stance and we finished the fight off.  I dont see a point in being in defensive stance when I rarely need that little extra defensive boost (again this is just for single group content not raid tanking) when I can be in offensive and just swap to defensive in those few situations where the sh#t does infact hit the perverbial fan.   </p><p>2h + Defensive stance-  Whats the point...... only really end up here if im in the middle of swappin gear, dont care for this combo myself</p><p>2h+ Offensive stance-  When im dpsing and not tanking..... personally rarely tank in offensive with a 2h unless im extremely bored</p><p>1h/board + Defensive stance-  Great for when the sh#t hits the fan (you can put the shield over your head and most wont hit you)</p><p>1h/board + Offensive stance-  Typical stance for me for pve</p><p>1h/symbol + Offensive stance-  Situational dps based on mob we are fighting (have heard many SK's claim this is the best way to dps, but I still can only get it to break my 2h offensive on mobs we have to joust heavily, if anyone has had alot of luck with this please post your strat) </p><p>Personally Humiliation, I think you need to re evaluate how you play the class, sounds to me like you are forcing yourself to play below your classes abilities.  The fact that you simply refuse to acknowledge that there may be play styles out there that are not the same as yours is silly.  Heck I adjust the way i think about my SK on a regular basis, its one of the great things about the human species we are able to assimiliate new information and infer conclusions from it that allow us to adjust our behavior...... give it a try some time.</p><p>For new SK's out there, I would suggest that you be flexible on your stance adjustment when tanking.  Boosting group dps by being in offensive is great, but the first time you run a zone with a healer i suggest trying it in defensive untill you learn both the capabilities of the healer and your own survivability in that particular zone.  Given some time and experience you will probably be able to pick out which stance you should be in at any given time.  Just make sure you play around with it to get a good feel for the effects of each stance and 2h or 1h/board combos.  I also heavily recommend getting ACT (advanced combat tracker) which allows you to parse your dmg, but just as importantly you can check resist rates for stances and your to hit % while you play in different stances, will give you a very solid feel for your class.</p>

Wytie
05-17-2007, 10:34 AM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><p>hehe poor Humiliation ..hits level 70 and thinks you get Master I 'how to play a SK correctly"</p><p>honestly, OP asked for advice. We all have our experience(s) and what works (or we think) works best for us. </p><p>Personally, I Tank offensively, <span style="color: #ff0000">and get a lot of crap from my healers</span>, but at the end of the day,<span style="color: #ff0000"> we die less</span>, the game was (slightly) more challenging and mobs/instance got done quicker.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000">Also, on a side note, with decent equipment and items that proc, it doesn't matter if you are def or off. You could be parsing right under the actual priest if you are tanking correctly</span>. </p></blockquote><p> Poor PK being in DoM has you arrogance climaxed allready <img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Its sad really you've been 70 for that long and just dont know your role in a group, please explain just how you die less in offensive thats very boggling??? In no way at all does that make any since, but then again neither do most the things you say......</p><p>Sure it depends on the group set up and how many healers you have but if your in a group with one healer 2 or 3 scouts and a mage or 2 which is typical, if your in offensive? <i>your nothing but an idiot</i>.  Sure its possiable to loose agro to the dps monsters but agro control isnt just the tanks responsiblity, and depending on the group buffs you'll be agro buffed anyway with the right aa's should make it not really an non issue....</p><p>You show me someone who tanks any zone in offensive and ill show you someone who isnt pulling enough mobs, which case you haven figured out the more you pull the faster the zone really is....  hmm go figure  <img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

Wytie
05-17-2007, 10:54 AM
<cite>Angelow wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>This is posted most directly in reply to Humiliation.</p><p>As it is clear im in the minority I expect to be flamed for this, but eh, I think I will live.  I personally tank in Offensive stance nearly all fights.  And when i mean im tanking in offensive stance lets be clear on this..... im not talking about OOB or Valdoons or MM Catacombs..... I am specifically talking about MM Castle and Nizara.   I run pickup groups and my regular play group through both zones, almost always in offensive stance.  I run them with either 1 or 2 healers, and generally never use a mezzer.  With adds occuring in MM Castle we still have the ability to come out on top nearly every time.  Last run I did was about 6 hours long with 0 wipes and i think 2 deaths (this included a fight that had a total of 11 mobs that were level 74 on us at one time).   So please dont tell me we CANT do it in offensive stance, we simply can if you play correctly for that style.  Our zone wide dps was 3.8k for the group, of which i parsed 1.2k and didnt die once...... so yeah, I tank in offensive stance, and yes, I may be a tank and tanking is my primary role, but why shouldnt i put up 1.2k sustained dps in a hard fast moving zone when im able to.  Thinking we are JUST tanks, we shouldnt do anything but tank is silly, its our primary focus, but we are a blend of many things, dont pigeon hole yourself if you dont absolutely have to.</p><p>That being said, there are times I tank in defensive stance.  Personally I always start out in Offensive and adjust to defensive as needed.  For example I will run 95% of the time in MM CAstle in offensive, but when above mentioned triple encounter occured I swapped to defensive and popped DM/despoil and tanked like a tank can tank  =D.  However, as soon as the fight was back under manageable DPS inc to me, I swapped back to offensive stance and we finished the fight off.  I dont see a point in being in defensive stance when I rarely need that little extra defensive boost (again this is just for single group content not raid tanking) when I can be in offensive and just swap to defensive in those few situations where the sh#t does infact hit the perverbial fan.   </p><p>2h + Defensive stance-  Whats the point...... only really end up here if im in the middle of swappin gear, dont care for this combo myself</p><p>2h+ Offensive stance-  When im dpsing and not tanking..... personally rarely tank in offensive with a 2h unless im extremely bored</p><p>1h/board + Defensive stance-  Great for when the sh#t hits the fan (you can put the shield over your head and most wont hit you)</p><p>1h/board + Offensive stance-  Typical stance for me for pve</p><p>1h/symbol + Offensive stance-  Situational dps based on mob we are fighting (have heard many SK's claim this is the best way to dps, but I still can only get it to break my 2h offensive on mobs we have to joust heavily, if anyone has had alot of luck with this please post your strat) </p><p><span style="color: #ff0000">Personally Humiliation, I think you need to re evaluate how you play the class, sounds to me like you are forcing yourself to play below your classes abilities.  The fact that you simply refuse to acknowledge that there may be play styles out there that are not the same as yours is silly.  Heck I adjust the way i think about my SK on a regular basis, its one of the great things about the human species we are able to assimiliate new information and infer conclusions from it that allow us to adjust our behavior...... give it a try some time.</span></p><p>For new SK's out there, I would suggest that you be flexible on your stance adjustment when tanking.  Boosting group dps by being in offensive is great, but the first time you run a zone with a healer i suggest trying it in defensive untill you learn both the capabilities of the healer and your own survivability in that particular zone.  Given some time and experience you will probably be able to pick out which stance you should be in at any given time.  Just make sure you play around with it to get a good feel for the effects of each stance and 2h or 1h/board combos.  I also heavily recommend getting ACT (advanced combat tracker) which allows you to parse your dmg, but just as importantly you can check resist rates for stances and your to hit % while you play in different stances, will give you a very solid feel for your class.</p></blockquote><p>Ok bro you tank all you want in offensive but if i had 3 healers hell i would do the same <img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>re evaluate my class LOL no thanks i leared how to tank and my role in a group long ago... just cause you havent figured it out yet,  thats your prob so go ahead and continue to adjust your play and be inconsistent, so your group and the people you play with have no clue as to what your doing......  Come on with this crap about human species this is a friggn game have fun and do what best for you and your group, so what i dont agree not really a big deal eh </p>

Nocifer Deathblade
05-17-2007, 11:56 AM
Wytie wrote: <blockquote><p>i would have really liked to now where zone you were in??  In your case and the one above you prob were in a very easy zone (which is a waste of time after getting end game gear) and not in a full group sure if its just a SK and one healer your gona need all the dps you can get, best thing about an SK is you can run zones with just a dirge that most have a prob with a healer with.</p><p>All of my statments were in-refernce to tuff T7 zones, where full group were needed, if its an easy T7 zone it can be soloed  as an SK not many classes can do the same <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  </p></blockquote><p> I use 2h in offense or defense (depends on group mixture) in COV, OOB, SoS, MM catacombs, and all outdoor activities.. I switch to 1h/shield against final bosses in COV and OOB though..  I would switch to 1h/shield in full group full of dps. If I happen to get 2 healers (awesome hp buff and mitigation) then I go 2h cuz 1h/shield won't make much difference in tanking cuz of small avoidance difference between my 2h vs my 1h/shield. If I happen to get my hands on fabled 1h and fabled shield then it would change my strategy though.. Problem is that there is no tradeable fabled piercer for SK at this time. I am Cavalier and always use any piercers.   Good thing is that I am doing very good tank job even with 2h compared to most non-raiding tanks that groups experienced. I am no raider either..  </p><p>I use 1h/shield full time in unrest, MM castle, HOF and some other hard zones though that 2h will hurt me bad while tanking.. By the way, my avoidance is 32% in full offense with 2h solo so it's not too bad for non-raiding SK. I maxed out Cavalier AA line including full higher ground AA for lot of defense plus got lot of defense/parry on my gear without shield so it helps nicely so I can use 2h more efficient and get most dps out of it for trampling.  </p><p>Basically.. It takes some little testing to see if 2h or 1h/shield is best in any new zones then stick to it. You'll know by the feel of the tanking power via combat to find best balance. Every SK have different balance largely based on their gear, AA, spell masters, etc.  </p>

Zanix
05-17-2007, 11:56 AM
<cite>Wytie wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><p>hehe poor Humiliation ..hits level 70 and thinks you get Master I 'how to play a SK correctly"</p><p>honestly, OP asked for advice. We all have our experience(s) and what works (or we think) works best for us. </p><p>Personally, I Tank offensively, <span style="color: #ff0000">and get a lot of crap from my healers</span>, but at the end of the day,<span style="color: #ff0000"> we die less</span>, the game was (slightly) more challenging and mobs/instance got done quicker.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000">Also, on a side note, with decent equipment and items that proc, it doesn't matter if you are def or off. You could be parsing right under the actual priest if you are tanking correctly</span>. </p></blockquote><p> Poor PK being in DoM has you arrogance climaxed allready <img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p><span style="color: #cc0000">sorry. I don't understand this remark. from what I can recall, I've been arrogant since level 1. I didn't wait to get cocky at level 70 like some people.</span></p><p>Its sad really you've been 70 for that long and just dont know your role in a group, please explain just how you die less in offensive thats very boggling??? In no way at all does that make any since, but then again neither do most the things you say......</p><p><span style="color: #cc0000">It's called burning down mobs and zones and PVP. I am a meat shield. with the combination of my own heals + my priest heals, I don't think there are more than 2 zones (non-raid) where the mobs are going to burn through me.</span></p><p>Sure it depends on the group set up and how many healers you have but if your in a group with one healer 2 or 3 scouts and a mage or 2 which is typical, if your in offensive? <i>your nothing but an idiot</i>.  Sure its possiable to loose agro to the dps monsters but agro control isnt just the tanks responsiblity, and depending on the group buffs you'll be agro buffed anyway with the right aa's should make it not really an non issue....</p><p><span style="color: #cc3300">I never need more than 1 healer. those who do are noobs.</span></p><p>You show me someone who tanks any zone in offensive and ill show you someone who isnt pulling enough mobs, which case you haven figured out the more you pull the faster the zone really is....  hmm go figure  <img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p><span style="color: #cc3300">Like I said, I've been doing these zones faster and looong before you. They are clockwork now. Easy street and there's really no need to tank defensive (for me) Perhaps if my armor wasn't great, and I didn't know what I was doing, I'd use defensive stance to save my neck.</span></p><p><span style="color: #cc3300">I noticed also, you are missing Dogmatic legs...I'd bet all my plat in bank this is because you can't handle CMM.</span></p></blockquote><p>You had to go here? You turn level 70 a month ago, and seem to have mastered the class. You have yet to step foot in most KOS raid zones and probobly don't even have a full set of AAs yet. </p><p>When you finally re evaluate your role and (perhaps reroll completely) one day you will realize you are usually wrong. bookmark this thread and a year from now, you can laugh with the rest of us.</p>

Angelow
05-17-2007, 12:19 PM
<p>When did i say i had 3 healers...... I have 1 OR 2 healers with no mezzer for MM Castle...... stated that pretty clearly in my last post.  Again.... one more time.... MM Castle, 1 OR 2 healers, no mezzer, in Offensive stance........ that clear enough for you?  And if your wondering how many names etc we are accomplishing its generally 1 name per 8 to 12 mins due to respawn timers and how far apart the names are spread.  You dont have to like the way I handle my sk, thats fine, but saying im an idiot is silly.  </p><p>I have run members of dauntless through MM Castle in the past...... and not one of them has left saying anything other then "PLEASE take me with you again if you do MM Castle..... it doesnt usually go that smoothly for us."  Stop being personal on your attacks buddy, you can play any way you want, thats fine, dont expect to change your opinion, but dont tell the rest of the community that we CANT do somethign when other people are doing it very very well.</p>

Zanix
05-17-2007, 12:26 PM
<p>good point. The majority of these threads are opinions or querries for advice. Typically the flames will only start if someone specifically causes a spark. At that point, it's then open for flamage.</p>

Angelow
05-17-2007, 12:34 PM
God [Removed for Content] it humiliation..... you have me agreeing with Peekay multiple times...... thats just not right.

Wytie
05-17-2007, 01:22 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><cite>Wytie wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><p>hehe poor Humiliation ..hits level 70 and thinks you get Master I 'how to play a SK correctly"</p><p>honestly, OP asked for advice. We all have our experience(s) and what works (or we think) works best for us. </p><p>Personally, I Tank offensively, <span style="color: #ff0000">and get a lot of crap from my healers</span>, but at the end of the day,<span style="color: #ff0000"> we die less</span>, the game was (slightly) more challenging and mobs/instance got done quicker.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000">Also, on a side note, with decent equipment and items that proc, it doesn't matter if you are def or off. You could be parsing right under the actual priest if you are tanking correctly</span>. </p></blockquote><p> Poor PK being in DoM has you arrogance climaxed allready <img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p><span style="color: #cc0000">sorry. I don't understand this remark. from what I can recall, I've been arrogant since level 1. I didn't wait to get cocky at level 70 like some people.</span></p><p>Its sad really you've been 70 for that long and just dont know your role in a group, please explain just how you die less in offensive thats very boggling??? In no way at all does that make any since, but then again neither do most the things you say......</p><p><span style="color: #cc0000">It's called burning down mobs and zones and PVP. I am a meat shield. with the combination of my own heals + my priest heals, I don't think there are more than 2 zones (non-raid) where the mobs are going to burn through me.</span></p><p>Sure it depends on the group set up and how many healers you have but if your in a group with one healer 2 or 3 scouts and a mage or 2 which is typical, if your in offensive? <i>your nothing but an idiot</i>.  Sure its possiable to loose agro to the dps monsters but agro control isnt just the tanks responsiblity, and depending on the group buffs you'll be agro buffed anyway with the right aa's should make it not really an non issue....</p><p><span style="color: #cc3300">I never need more than 1 healer. those who do are noobs.</span></p><p>You show me someone who tanks any zone in offensive and ill show you someone who isnt pulling enough mobs, which case you haven figured out the more you pull the faster the zone really is....  hmm go figure  <img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p><span style="color: #cc3300">Like I said, I've been doing these zones faster and looong before you. They are clockwork now. Easy street and there's really no need to tank defensive (for me) Perhaps if my armor wasn't great, and I didn't know what I was doing, I'd use defensive stance to save my neck.</span></p><p><span style="color: #cc3300">I noticed also, you are missing Dogmatic legs...I'd bet all my plat in bank this is because you can't handle CMM.</span></p></blockquote><p>You had to go here? You turn level 70 a month ago, and seem to have mastered the class. You have yet to step foot in most KOS raid zones and probobly don't even have a full set of AAs yet. </p><p>When you finally re evaluate your role and (perhaps reroll completely) one day you will realize you are usually wrong. bookmark this thread and a year from now, you can laugh with the rest of us.</p></blockquote><p>this isnt my first sk btw i had one on a blue server (level 65)  What so life begins at 70, you talk crazy like your some SK vet but your gear isnt even better than mine how long you been running instances? yep I'm missing the legs so how many peices do you have???  yea thats kinda what i though....  </p><p>  I rarly find groups that want to run that zone, I dont really need the 7th peice anyway i get the full bonus from 6 so im not really worried about it...  </p><p>I didnt go anywhere your the one who went to naggy, grats on KOS raid zones im sure you could have done it without being exile,  i should hope every exile guild would be at that point by now but like you said guees i wouldnt know huh..... </p>

Wytie
05-17-2007, 01:26 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><p>good point. The majority of these threads are opinions or querries for advice. Typically the flames will only start if someone specifically causes a spark. At that point, it's then open for flamage.</p></blockquote>Exactly! and you went there first "Master I" SK <img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> maybe you should have followed your own advise and just said your opinion to the subject rather than flame me...........

Zanix
05-17-2007, 01:36 PM
<p>your posts are non-constructive and critical against other's opinions. Trust me, I haven't logged in in about a month. My gear, knowledge, PVP,  and skill still exceeds yours. (and most likely will until I decide to log back in)</p><p> I'm sorry dude, but you didn't even post on forums until you hit level 70, which was about a month ago. I've been here since beta. I've maxed out my AAs, master spells and raided almost all T7 content. </p><p>Case in point:  when I pvp'd :  my groups rolled over your groups like green down arrow mobs.</p><p>Tonight, when you finally grow the balls and tank offensively, think of me <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

Wytie
05-17-2007, 04:22 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><p>your posts are non-constructive and critical against other's opinions. <span style="color: #ff0000">ahh describing yourself again huh</span> Trust me <span style="color: #ff0000">Trust you, I wouldnt trust you if the world depended on it, </span>I haven't logged in in about a month. My gear, knowledge, PVP,  and skill still exceeds yours. (and most likely will until I decide to log back in) <span style="color: #ff0000">LOL</span></p><p> I'm sorry dude, but you didn't even post on forums until you hit level 70 <span style="color: #ff0000">again you full of it.. Iv been posting ever since I hit pvp anything else you wish to makeup</span>, which was about a month ago. <span style="color: #ff0000">maybe you should do some research instead of making crap up if you check my profile my very first post was before 09/14/2006, couldnt go back & look any farther due to forum change, not so much a month ago eh</span> I've been here since beta. I've maxed out my AAs, master spells and raided almost all T7 content. <span style="color: #ff0000">gratz do you fell like you've accomplished something? Maybe you should play something else since you obvioulsy beat the game <img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span></p><p>Case in point:  when I pvp'd :  my groups rolled over your groups like green down arrow mobs. <span style="color: #ff0000">Then you woke up, your group has never rolled my group, your group has ganked me once which I congratulated you for...</span></p><p>Tonight, when you finally grow the balls and tank offensively, think of me <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <span style="color: #ff0000">ahh your feelings must be hurt, now now PK maybe when you <u>grow up</u> you'll think of me</span> <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p></blockquote>

Zanix
05-17-2007, 04:39 PM
<p>hehe. I wish i were on Venny just so I could show you what's up. pointless though. </p><p> either way...</p><p>to the SKs who are looking for advice rather than boasting nonsense: it is VERY possible and effective to tank offensively. </p>

Wytie
05-17-2007, 05:37 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><p>hehe. I wish i were on Venny just so I could show you what's up. pointless though. </p><p> either way...</p><p>to the SKs who are looking for advice rather than boasting nonsense: it is VERY possible and effective to tank offensively. </p></blockquote><p>hehe I still love ya bro, you are correct BTW it is very possiable & effective to tank offensively, the key is to know when to switch even if its mid fight there is nothing wrong with going offensive and swaping if your taking a bit more of a beating than you like, every SK should have macros set up for both situations not only stance but gear also. </p><p>My only dislike i have about combining gear and stances in one macro to maximize both is when going 2 a macro that equips a 1H and shield & swaps stances, it tends to not equip the 1H or shield on accasion coming from a 2H, which isnt good if you in the heat of a beating, I just double press the marco and it usally resolves the issue. But i have caught it only equiping one or the other when clearly the macro was supose to do both. Iv tried a few things to resolve that issue in building that macro but havent had alot of luck it doesnt do it all the time but notice it will leave one out if you are getting beat on when trying to swap midfight. I guess when getting hit theres a chance for your macro to get inturrupted thus not fully equiping everything.</p><p>Heres an example of how i built some useful macros, the first key thing to remember is in order to swap stances you have to cancle the one you have on before it will actually change stance, i do that by casting the same stance twice in the same macro the first one will cancle the old stance and the second will cast the new one.</p><p>Defensive mode -    line 1 - (defensive stance) this will cancel offensive stance</p><p>                               line 2 -  equip shield</p><p>                               line 3 - equip other gear that may have more STA or mit/resist than what you may use to maximize dps</p><p>                               line 4 - equip 1H </p><p>                               line 5 - (defensive stance) this part of the macro will actually cast this putting you in defensive stance I seperated the this due to all this happons so fast if you put this as # 2 it tends to not work correctly.</p><p>Offensive mode     same as obove but replace defensive stance with offensive and replace shield and 1H with nice 2H, and replace mit/resist gear with intell and plus to spell damage gear, or if STR is your style that too.</p><p>I also have a pvp mode tha combins the 2, ill mix up offensive stance and STA & mit/resist gear to maximize my survivablitly and help out dps wise, some will go with a 2H in this case but i like the Shield bash for an extra stun so thats my personal choice.</p><p>Anyone can create your own, using mine as an example, depending on your gear and play style to benifit you and your groups best.  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p><p>All in all MARCOS rule there the best at maximizing your potential exp mid fight and on the fly. </p><p><i>This is just my opinion but has improved my personal game play</i></p>

Zanix
05-17-2007, 05:49 PM
there ya go! good job.

Wytie
05-17-2007, 05:58 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>there ya go! good job.</blockquote><p> mouhahah</p><p>I'm still a newb & I still tank defensive <img src="/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>/flee   hehe</p>

Angelow
05-18-2007, 01:46 AM
<cite>Wytie wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Angelow wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>This is posted most directly in reply to Humiliation.</p><p>As it is clear im in the minority I expect to be flamed for this, but eh, I think I will live.  I personally tank in Offensive stance nearly all fights.  And when i mean im tanking in offensive stance lets be clear on this..... im not talking about OOB or Valdoons or MM Catacombs..... I am specifically talking about MM Castle and Nizara.   I run pickup groups and my regular play group through both zones, almost always in offensive stance.  I run them with either 1 or 2 healers, and generally never use a mezzer.  With adds occuring in MM Castle we still have the ability to come out on top nearly every time.  Last run I did was about 6 hours long with 0 wipes and i think 2 deaths (this included a fight that had a total of 11 mobs that were level 74 on us at one time).   So please dont tell me we CANT do it in offensive stance, we simply can if you play correctly for that style.  Our zone wide dps was 3.8k for the group, of which i parsed 1.2k and didnt die once...... so yeah, I tank in offensive stance, and yes, I may be a tank and tanking is my primary role, but why shouldnt i put up 1.2k sustained dps in a hard fast moving zone when im able to.  Thinking we are JUST tanks, we shouldnt do anything but tank is silly, its our primary focus, but we are a blend of many things, dont pigeon hole yourself if you dont absolutely have to.</p><p>That being said, there are times I tank in defensive stance.  Personally I always start out in Offensive and adjust to defensive as needed.  For example I will run 95% of the time in MM CAstle in offensive, but when above mentioned triple encounter occured I swapped to defensive and popped DM/despoil and tanked like a tank can tank  =D.  However, as soon as the fight was back under manageable DPS inc to me, I swapped back to offensive stance and we finished the fight off.  I dont see a point in being in defensive stance when I rarely need that little extra defensive boost (again this is just for single group content not raid tanking) when I can be in offensive and just swap to defensive in those few situations where the sh#t does infact hit the perverbial fan.   </p><p>2h + Defensive stance-  Whats the point...... only really end up here if im in the middle of swappin gear, dont care for this combo myself</p><p>2h+ Offensive stance-  When im dpsing and not tanking..... personally rarely tank in offensive with a 2h unless im extremely bored</p><p>1h/board + Defensive stance-  Great for when the sh#t hits the fan (you can put the shield over your head and most wont hit you)</p><p>1h/board + Offensive stance-  Typical stance for me for pve</p><p>1h/symbol + Offensive stance-  Situational dps based on mob we are fighting (have heard many SK's claim this is the best way to dps, but I still can only get it to break my 2h offensive on mobs we have to joust heavily, if anyone has had alot of luck with this please post your strat) </p><p><span style="color: #ff0000">Personally Humiliation, I think you need to re evaluate how you play the class, sounds to me like you are forcing yourself to play below your classes abilities.  The fact that you simply refuse to acknowledge that there may be play styles out there that are not the same as yours is silly.  Heck I adjust the way i think about my SK on a regular basis, its one of the great things about the human species we are able to assimiliate new information and infer conclusions from it that allow us to adjust our behavior...... give it a try some time.</span></p><p>For new SK's out there, I would suggest that you be flexible on your stance adjustment when tanking.  Boosting group dps by being in offensive is great, but the first time you run a zone with a healer i suggest trying it in defensive untill you learn both the capabilities of the healer and your own survivability in that particular zone.  Given some time and experience you will probably be able to pick out which stance you should be in at any given time.  Just make sure you play around with it to get a good feel for the effects of each stance and 2h or 1h/board combos.  I also heavily recommend getting ACT (advanced combat tracker) which allows you to parse your dmg, but just as importantly you can check resist rates for stances and your to hit % while you play in different stances, will give you a very solid feel for your class.</p></blockquote><p>Ok bro you tank all you want in offensive but if i had 3 healers hell i would do the same <img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>re evaluate my class LOL no thanks i leared how to tank and my role in a group long ago... just cause you havent figured it out yet,  thats your prob so go ahead and continue to adjust your play and be inconsistent, so your group and the people you play with have no clue as to what your doing......  Come on with this crap about human species this is a friggn game have fun and do what best for you and your group, so what i dont agree not really a big deal eh </p></blockquote>So you now are saying that the key to tanking is swapping stances/gear mid fight...... which is part of how i described tanking in offensive stance where you called me a noob and told me to keep adjusting my play and being inconsistent???  Also where you quoted me at 3 healers when i said 1 or 2...... do you actually think before you post replies or just spazam at the keyboard and hope something readable comes out?  Please do me a favor, attack my opinions if you want, but atleast be logical about it when you do it.

Wytie
05-18-2007, 09:55 AM
<cite>Angelow wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wytie wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Angelow wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>This is posted most directly in reply to Humiliation.</p><p>As it is clear im in the minority I expect to be flamed for this, but eh, I think I will live.  I personally tank in Offensive stance nearly all fights.  And when i mean im tanking in offensive stance lets be clear on this..... im not talking about OOB or Valdoons or MM Catacombs..... I am specifically talking about MM Castle and Nizara.   I run pickup groups and my regular play group through both zones, almost always in offensive stance.  I run them with either 1 or 2 healers, and generally never use a mezzer.  With adds occuring in MM Castle we still have the ability to come out on top nearly every time.  Last run I did was about 6 hours long with 0 wipes and i think 2 deaths (this included a fight that had a total of 11 mobs that were level 74 on us at one time).   So please dont tell me we CANT do it in offensive stance, we simply can if you play correctly for that style.  Our zone wide dps was 3.8k for the group, of which i parsed 1.2k and didnt die once...... so yeah, I tank in offensive stance, and yes, I may be a tank and tanking is my primary role, but why shouldnt i put up 1.2k sustained dps in a hard fast moving zone when im able to.  Thinking we are JUST tanks, we shouldnt do anything but tank is silly, its our primary focus, but we are a blend of many things, dont pigeon hole yourself if you dont absolutely have to.</p><p>That being said, there are times I tank in defensive stance.  Personally I always start out in Offensive and adjust to defensive as needed.  For example I will run 95% of the time in MM CAstle in offensive, but when above mentioned triple encounter occured I swapped to defensive and popped DM/despoil and tanked like a tank can tank  =D.  However, as soon as the fight was back under manageable DPS inc to me, I swapped back to offensive stance and we finished the fight off.  I dont see a point in being in defensive stance when I rarely need that little extra defensive boost (again this is just for single group content not raid tanking) when I can be in offensive and just swap to defensive in those few situations where the sh#t does infact hit the perverbial fan.   </p><p>2h + Defensive stance-  Whats the point...... only really end up here if im in the middle of swappin gear, dont care for this combo myself</p><p>2h+ Offensive stance-  When im dpsing and not tanking..... personally rarely tank in offensive with a 2h unless im extremely bored</p><p>1h/board + Defensive stance-  Great for when the sh#t hits the fan (you can put the shield over your head and most wont hit you)</p><p>1h/board + Offensive stance-  Typical stance for me for pve</p><p>1h/symbol + Offensive stance-  Situational dps based on mob we are fighting (have heard many SK's claim this is the best way to dps, but I still can only get it to break my 2h offensive on mobs we have to joust heavily, if anyone has had alot of luck with this please post your strat) </p><p><span style="color: #ff0000">Personally Humiliation, I think you need to re evaluate how you play the class, sounds to me like you are forcing yourself to play below your classes abilities.  The fact that you simply refuse to acknowledge that there may be play styles out there that are not the same as yours is silly.  Heck I adjust the way i think about my SK on a regular basis, its one of the great things about the human species we are able to assimiliate new information and infer conclusions from it that allow us to adjust our behavior...... give it a try some time.</span></p><p>For new SK's out there, I would suggest that you be flexible on your stance adjustment when tanking.  Boosting group dps by being in offensive is great, but the first time you run a zone with a healer i suggest trying it in defensive untill you learn both the capabilities of the healer and your own survivability in that particular zone.  Given some time and experience you will probably be able to pick out which stance you should be in at any given time.  Just make sure you play around with it to get a good feel for the effects of each stance and 2h or 1h/board combos.  I also heavily recommend getting ACT (advanced combat tracker) which allows you to parse your dmg, but just as importantly you can check resist rates for stances and your to hit % while you play in different stances, will give you a very solid feel for your class.</p></blockquote><p>Ok bro you tank all you want in offensive but if i had 3 healers hell i would do the same <img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>re evaluate my class LOL no thanks i leared how to tank and my role in a group long ago... just cause you havent figured it out yet,  thats your prob so go ahead and continue to adjust your play and be inconsistent, so your group and the people you play with have no clue as to what your doing......  Come on with this crap about human species this is a friggn game have fun and do what best for you and your group, so what i dont agree not really a big deal eh </p></blockquote>So you now are saying that the key to tanking is swapping stances/gear mid fight...... which is part of how i described tanking in offensive stance where you called me a noob and told me to keep adjusting my play and being inconsistent???  Also where you quoted me at 3 healers when i said 1 or 2...... do you actually think before you post replies or just spazam at the keyboard and hope something readable comes out?  Please do me a favor, attack my opinions if you want, but atleast be logical about it when you do it. </blockquote><p>Look bro you attacked me first, cause you didnt like some of my opinions obviously we dont agree, get over it move on, your very well geared im sure you can do whatever you like with ease. The fact is most people arent in as much fabled as you so there stats mit and resist arent as high, so its to these people including myself helps absorb more of a beating, make the group look better, & pulls run safer for harder areas. Sure it depends on many things gear being most important.  Tell ya what bro you take all that fable off put mastercraft and some legendary and go tank those same hard instance in offensive and see what happens this box with big fat letters REVIVE will pop up for you and your group..... </p><p> The key to tanking is do whatever you can handle without [Removed for Content] off your healers and the rest of the group <img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p>

Dalamar777
05-18-2007, 01:24 PM
<p>Perhaps I have an over simplified view of things, but I have always felt that my job as the tank is to stand there while other people kills whatever is hitting me. This means I have to be able to hold aggro and I need not to die.</p><p>I stay in my defensive stance all the time. I have personally taken every AA that increases my taunts (the Crusader STR line and the SK Hate line). I don't have problems with aggro (even against <i>most</i> Wizards using fusion). Healers who have grouped with me more than once, know that they can slack on the healing and use their debuffs and all the other nice things that they do to make things die faster because I also have the Reaver line which allows me to heal myself while I'm just doing things that I would normally be doing.</p><p>Now, that said I happen to know a great SK tank who uses his DPS to hold aggro, and he's great at it. The two of us have actually tested to see which is better. Now we didn't go all out and sift through logs or use parsers, but while grouped with 3 Wizards we were both able to hold aggro in most every fight. In the end it really comes down to play style; while I have seen with my own eyes that his way works, it just wouldn't work for me, and my way wouldn't work for him.</p><p>Though anyone who doesn't do things exactly the way that I do is obviously wrong. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  (clearly kidding)</p>

chily
05-21-2007, 08:06 AM
<p>tbh zones like nest or den with 2 healers in the group are made for offence and 2h. I learned one thing .. don't pull more then 8 mobs in den lol Healers nearly get a heartattack when they see the hp dropping down a bit fast <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> but then deathmarch up and aoe em down. yes it hardly depends on zone and enemy and the skill. sometimes 1h+shield with offence or 2h with defence is nice too.</p><p>Stance switch in fight can be needed ... on a to big pull it helps a bit if you have the timing to start with dm and then switch the stance. Where is the fun without playing on the egde and test out the limits? start little take some more and see how much you and your group can handle <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ok we wiped in nest coz of a lag spike and i pulled the whole hallway + the second named ... but that was fun for me <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>My Sk had a litte rest (first char at 70) but i started playing him again and he makes more fun then my low level brusier.</p>

Beldin_
05-21-2007, 09:50 AM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>tbh zones like nest or den with 2 healers in the group are made for offence and 2h. I learned one thing .. don't pull more then 8 mobs in den lol </blockquote><p>In Nest i only use defense stance when soloing the third and second named, or for the endmob when duoing with a healer.</p><p>On the other hand you must also take in mind that i as non-raider have something like 3600 miti in off and maybe 4200 in def-stance, while others here claim to have maybe 5000 in off and 6000 in def or whatever, so why shouldn't they be able to tank anything in off-stance that i can tank in def ? </p>

Bobbette
05-21-2007, 10:04 AM
Okay, I skimmed through most of the [Removed for Content] contest here. One thing that people are not taking into account is gear.  Some of you are complete raid fabled and sure if you have that kind of mitigation, you're going to be able to jog through EoF instances in offensive without a second thought.  Especially if you're bringing raid fabled dps and healers with you also. For those tanks that are not raid fabled, and are sporting the best that heroic instancing, questing, and collections can offer ... or are doing pickup groups with dps and/or healers sporting the same ... well these zones are going to be dramatically more challenging for the group and for the tank.  In this case, yes, it's going to require defensive stances to boost mitigation and avoidance. The bottomline is that the challenge of EoF instances is relative to the gear of the players ... and not necessarily the skill of the players. I have the perspective from both sides.  My bruiser is in a raiding guild and when I go with my guild we just mow through zones.  The plate tanks can handle way more than my SK (see below).  In fact I think my bruiser can handle more than my SK (see below). My SK, however, is in a mishmash of labs fabled and claymore and Kyle Bayle's.  She's definitely not geared as a raid tank.  And thus when I do tank with her, I'm in defensive alot more than I would be if she was geared like my bruiser. Which brings me to the very good suggestions that have been throughout this thread.  Whether you can tank in offensive or need defensive stance depends upon a) the zone; b) the mobs you're fighting; c) your group makeup (pickup, high dps, low dps, types of healers, etc); d) your gear & buffs in that group (what's your mitigation & avoidance for this encounter). What makes a good tank is knowing what stances and gear to use in any given situation to keep yourself alive, keep aggro, and make the group work as efficiently as possible.

Antryg Mistrose
05-21-2007, 11:32 AM
[email protected] Bayle wrote: <blockquote>Okay, I skimmed through most of the [Removed for Content] contest here. What makes a good tank is knowing what stances and gear to use in any given situation to keep yourself alive, keep aggro, and make the group work as efficiently as possible. </blockquote>Sheesh, don't add sanity for goodness sake <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Minor point about a macro I saw lost in all the kerfluffle - you can't IN COMBAT change out more than one item at a time. I've also found it difficult to go from DPS gear stance, to OhNoTheMTIsDownTimeForMeToTankTheRaid gear/stance.  Any thought on that?  I figured  Deathmarch, Rescue, Divine Aura, Defensive Stance, change ONE item (shield for symbol perhaps if you went that way)  Not sure on the particular best order to do that though ....  (and its obviously more than one macro)

chily
05-21-2007, 11:41 AM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>tbh zones like nest or den with 2 healers in the group are made for offence and 2h. I learned one thing .. don't pull more then 8 mobs in den lol </blockquote><p>In Nest i only use defense stance when soloing the third and second named, or for the endmob when duoing with a healer.</p><p>On the other hand you must also take in mind that i as non-raider have something like 3600 miti in off and maybe 4200 in def-stance, while others here claim to have maybe 5000 in off and 6000 in def or whatever, so why shouldn't they be able to tank anything in off-stance that i can tank in def ? </p></blockquote><p>You get much more hit in offence stance then in defence coz the defence skill goes down, but that is more dps. more hits more reactive procs <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I roompull nest with full xego and no extrem gear, so my miti was around 4k. I start at those named you meand in offence for ini aggro sometimes, sometimes in offence, sometimes in complette defence. If you fight vs some low hitters offence when you fight vs hard hitters defence. But even vs like 4 hard hitters offence at start can work for tap veins, nice ini aggro and you heal to full again then switch to defence. Sk can fight really nice at limits with heroic's and solo mob ... I have 30% hp mob has 70% hp .. some secs later i have 50% hp and mob 30% <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> fight at the edge and find your power <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p>

Beldin_
05-21-2007, 11:57 AM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>You get much more hit in offence stance then in defence coz the defence skill goes down, but that is more dps. more hits more reactive procs <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote>Yeah, however i also only have 39,6% avoidance in def-stance with the stuff i mostly use, and i bet all these ub0r-raid0rs with 6k+ miti have mostly also stuff with much better avoidance so that they beat my defense miti and avoidance even in off-stance.

Reflexx
05-21-2007, 03:26 PM
I almost ALWAYS tank in defensive stance... because of the tanking benefits it supplies... Im sorry but 15% more MIT is a lot... but then again.. with SK's its really Dependant on the healer... with reaver you shoudl be fine in offensive and hate shouldn't be an issue you make up what you lose in threat just with the DPS increase. if your healer can handle it then what the hell right? just remember that healers think their DPS now which may cause an issue for ya =P

Beldin_
05-21-2007, 09:47 PM
<cite>Reflexx wrote:</cite><blockquote>I almost ALWAYS tank in defensive stance... because of the tanking benefits it supplies... Im sorry but 15% more MIT is a lot... </blockquote>The 15% is effective something like 2% more or whatever <img src="/smilies/136dd33cba83140c7ce38db096d05aed.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

chily
05-22-2007, 06:38 AM
<p>the miti from defence stance is nice for sure but it's not alll.</p><p>In Offence you loose defence skill by 18 or so ... 18 hmm that is nearly like 4Level's with 5 skills point .. So in offence you avoid a bit like you where 4 level lower ... that comes first then the miti if you get hit. Even if you have 6k miti you get more hit in offence then a sk with 4k in defence I tanked long time in defence with 1h and shield till i wanted to have it harder a bit then i went to offence tanking with 2h. with the right classes in your group the dps goes nice up for you.</p>

DwarvesR
05-23-2007, 08:55 AM
<p>I did my 1st Vaults run today at 65, so only the boss at the end was orange.</p><p>Group was me at 65, a 66 Defiler, a 63 Swashie, a 67 Wizard, a 70 coercer, and a 65 warden.</p><p>Since I've been in there before on other toons I know that the entry hall is easy to get adds in.  It didn't help that I recently moved some buttons around on my hotbars, so accidentally clicked Siphon Might instead of "Incoming!" on my 1st pull. . . . </p><p>Even so, with the 2 healers, my death march, AoE's and wow, Pestilence can be kewl with lots of mobs around. . . . .   Anyway, I was still able to hold aggro for all 3 encounters that came on that 1st bad pull.  There were a few times later where we got 2 encounters at a time, and once on the 3rd floor a lag spike made the swashie accidentally bring 2 adds while we were finishing up a group of mobs, but overall it went nice and smooth.  No deaths at all on that run.  No class hats dropped of the end guy though <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I was in Off Stance with 1H/Shield.  My gear is still putely the level 62 mastercrafted stuff -- xegonite devout and moonstone jewelry.</p><p>Had we not had 2 healers though. . . I would heve been in Def stance.  I think we handled what we did that well becuz of the 2 healers, not becuz of good gear or anything.</p><p>One person had a parser.  I averaged about 600 dps for the zone.  Not bad for tanking, I thought.  I broke 1K a few times when we had multiple encounters.  Love those AoE's!</p><p>Thanks again for all the replies folks.  I've learned a lot reading what you all have to say.</p>

Beldin_
05-23-2007, 09:40 AM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>One person had a parser.  I averaged about 600 dps for the zone.  Not bad for tanking, I thought.  </blockquote>Even if some person here talk about DPSing when not tanking .. my experience in groups has always been that i do the same or even more damage when i tank as if i'm not tanking. It also makes sense in my eyes, because you pull and start with the damage, you can pull the mob to where you can safely use all your AoEs, and you have more buffs <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />