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View Full Version : Sarnak: good, evil, or neutral?


Brendon344
05-11-2007, 02:33 AM
What do you think they will be aligned under?

Cusashorn
05-11-2007, 02:36 AM
<p>Already confirmed: NEUTRAL.</p><p>They start in a city in Timerous Deep, along with Humans, Barbarians, Gnomes, Half Elves, and Erudites. A completely neutral race city.</p>

Snowdonia
05-11-2007, 04:27 AM
I think he's refering to, insofar as classes available to them. Neutral only confirms they can be any class that do not have good/evil counterparts. So, does this mean ALL classes with good/evil counterparts are not available to them? Will they be allowed the good aligned classes or the evil aligned classes or will they be allowed EVERY class available? This has not been clarified and I know for myself, I'd like to see it done so. If they aren't allowed ANY good/evil counterpart classes, then they get shafted. If they are allowed ALL classes, then, IMO, that would be much too powerful and unbalanced (might as well remove the good/evil alignment requirements on races and just let any race choose any alignment they want from creation since the betrayals are nothing more than a bottle neck for people to choose the race/class combo they want from the start). Of course, if they allow for class selection from either camp, then they will be classified as either good or evil with a neutral mindset to outsiders. It's very confusing personally and I'd like to know their plans for this. So which classes WILL be available for selection to Sarnak and other neutrals starting out in TD?

Galithdor
05-11-2007, 12:38 PM
Yeah...i think they can just be every class...i dunno lol

C
05-11-2007, 12:45 PM
The other named neutral races scheduled to be allowed to start in Timorous Deep can currently choose any class, so it would make sense that Sarnak would be able to aswell.  I don't see anyone complaining that kerra or barbarians are overpowered because of this, not sure why this could be perceived as a problem.

Cusashorn
05-11-2007, 01:35 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>The other named neutral races scheduled to be allowed to start in Timorous Deep can currently choose any class, so it would make sense that Sarnak would be able to aswell.  I don't see anyone complaining that kerra or barbarians are overpowered because of this, not sure why this could be perceived as a problem.</blockquote> Yeah but said races also have to live in cities that conform to the good class or evil class preferance...

Brendon344
05-11-2007, 08:24 PM
I ment by classes, this would be very hard for PVP too, since the town would always be fighting, unless they have 2 seperate sects of the town, it will be kind of hard.

Cusashorn
05-11-2007, 08:29 PM
They can always make it a PVP-free zone. Can only fight outside of it. Exploitable, perhaps, but it's one solution.

initoci
05-11-2007, 09:09 PM
<p>They are neutral...</p><p>I personally think they should script an on-going battle between Chardok and a large Iksar encampment, which would add some fun to running around the zone and watching for large waves of Iksars. Be able to fight in the camp and then go into a raid zone and fight a General of the Iksar empire, Which could then possibly be needed to fight Venril Sathir.</p>

Vonotar
05-14-2007, 06:18 PM
<cite>Brendon344 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I ment by classes, this would be very hard for PVP too, since the town would always be fighting, unless they have 2 seperate sects of the town, it will be kind of hard. </blockquote> ooOOoo evil thought!! If the 1-20 zone was PvP disabled then new people would be able to try the game out and get a feel for it without being whacked by level locked tw..it's <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> everytime they stray more than 2 foot away from a guard. Gee I guess that would kill PvP for some people.

Vonotar
05-14-2007, 06:24 PM
On a more serious note, maybe they will go back to people starting as Enchanters, Summoners, Warriors etc... just for the new city and just until you move to one of the other 4.  Remember they have stated that players will progress from the new starter zone to the old zones at level 20.. there will be no 20-65 content in RoK.

DataOutlaw
05-14-2007, 06:25 PM
<p>The RoK site clearly states they will ne NEUTRAL</p><p> As to the classes available to them I think there really are only three options:</p><ol><li>They can be any class (good or evil)</li><li>They can only be neutral classes (like Fury or Warden) and can not choose any class that is good or evil (like Paladin or Shadowknight)</li><li>They will be aligned good or evil in their class choices. Based on the lore so far that would probably mean good classes (like Paladin) and they would not be able to choose evil classes (like Shadowknight)</li></ol><p>Methinks we will have to wait a while before we find out for sure which is the way they go with it. We had to wait a long time to find out that Kelethin would be good only when they first started talking about EoF. </p>

PassingStranger
05-14-2007, 07:31 PM
<p>I was wondering about this myself. It may be a neutral city as far as how it gets along with other cities, but they'd need to choose an alignment for classes. I'm sure they simply aren't telling us yet, or haven't decided yet.</p><p>I don't imagine that they would simply not allow citizens of that city to choose classes that are good or evil, that would severely limit the choices available, and reduce the attraction of starting in that city. Not to mention that along with the classes would have to be the deity choices, limiting it to solusek, brell, and...I guess tribunal is the new neutral god.</p><p>Just having all classes running around in the city seems equally unlikely, as they are considered good and evil for a reason. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense that they'd so easily cohabitate the same area.</p><p>Judging from the Sarnaks' aggressive disposition in EQ1, it seems like it leans more towards evil than good, but you never know. There's been universally aggressive NPC factions that have had good classes. I remember it was made note of in a raid group I was in to kill Cyenadros (the dragon that spawns in the Sanctum of the Scaleborn), that judging from the buffs active on him, he was a Paladin.</p><p>The only way I can think that they could have all the classes available and it make any sort of sense, would to go old school EQ1 style and have a divided city. Much in the way that Freeport, Qeynos, and to a lesser extent, Aka'Anon worked in EQ1, you have something of a primary alignment, then have an underground of the opposite alignment.</p>

Owilliams
05-14-2007, 07:32 PM
<p>I remember back in one of the threads a while ago that I had expressed the opinion that the sarnak might be a possibility for the new playable race with Rise of Kunark and some self-appointed EverQuest Loremasters/Developers/Experts (TM) quite curtly replied that it was impossible and would never happen, end of story.</p><p>All I can say at this juncture is... "IN YOUR FACE -- BOOYA!!"</p><p>/SnoopyDance</p><p>Happy Gaming!</p><p>--Orv</p>

Novusod
05-15-2007, 02:33 AM
My hope is that since they already stated that the Sarnak is neutral they will be able to start with all 24 classes available to them. It would be absurd to create a new race and only allow players to choose from 8 classes when there are 24 in game. Also if they were not allowed to be good or evil it would be impossible for Sarnaks to be any of the non-neutral classes if they did not have all classes available at the start because of the way betrayal works. For example it is not possible for a neutral warrior to betray to an aligned crusader which means Sarnak Paladin/Shadowknight would be impossible unless they were allowed to chose non-neutral classes at charactor create.  What this likely means for PvP is the introduction of a ligitamate third faction. Players starting on Kunark won't be able to attack each other but both Qs and Freep would be agro to them. Eventually this faction would doninate the PvP servers because it of the way PvE raids for high end loot really require the use the all the classes.

Finora
05-15-2007, 03:32 AM
PassingStranger wrote: <blockquote><p>Just having all classes running around in the city seems equally unlikely, as they are considered good and evil for a reason. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense that they'd so easily cohabitate the same area.</p></blockquote><p> I don't know why it would seem so odd. "Good" and "Evil" in EQ2 (strictly speaking PVE here) are basically Lucan is a meanie and Antonia is a goodie-twoshoes. Always has felt really artificial to me, honestly.</p><p>People of both alignments regularly interact with each other, fight beside each other, guild with each other etc. </p><p>Digging up the past here, but "good" and "evil" walked freely among each other in EQ1, I don't see any reason why they wouldn't be able to in a new city that was classified as neutral (not on a side in the war between Qeynos & Freeport). Makes perfect sense to me that a race so different as Sarnak might have different views on good and evil than some human in one of the old cities.</p>

SpritRaja
05-15-2007, 06:02 AM
Having every class available in the same city does seem a little overpowering. Having only neutral classes available leaves you with the Sarnak being stuck with only 8 classes while every other race can be any of 24. Very unfair to anyone playing Sarnak. IMO its a neutral city so definitions of good and bad aren't as strict. Therefore you will probably see a mixed choice of good and bad classes while being balanced. Classes that should be available in Sarnak starting city(my thoughts): Shadow Knight Berserker Bruiser Monk Dirge Assassin Brigand Troubadour Fury Inquisitor Mystic Defiler Warlock Conjurer Necromancer Coercer This gives them the same amount of classes any other city starts with and allows Sarnak through a betrayal quest to switch to another class if so desired.

Snowdonia
05-15-2007, 06:44 AM
Finora, You just made me think of something. There really is no reason why the Sarnak home city can't have good and evil housed within it. Like you said, look at EQ1. People who were good AND evil could start in Freeport or Qeynos. The evils always started down in the hidden bowels of the cities while the goodies started topside. There's no reason why the Sarnak city can't have the same thing. It *would* be a first for EQII, but definately not a first for the world of Norrath. I would still like some clarification though and hope we get it within the next month.

Araxes
05-15-2007, 01:34 PM
It's a smart move to make them neutral.  Do I like it?  No, I'd rather they were evil, as lore has depicted them.  However, it's a smart move for SOE.  Why? New and old players alike have long raised the concern that having to choose between good or evil and only being able then to pick from some classes and not others is an annoyance and a barrier to entry for some players.  I tend to think it adds to diversity but not everyone shares that opinion, so I can see where SOE is coming from. With a truly neutral race and a truly neutral starting city, they allow new and old players alike to create a character that can be ANY class. I assume that once you do choose your class, that in turn will determine your alignment.  So, just as if you played a Kerra, if you choose to be a Shadowknight, you'll be aligned evil, even though Kerra are a neutral race.  I think it would be the same with Sarnaks - the only difference being that instead of having to choose Freeport / Neriak or Qeynos / Kelethin, you could opt to start in a truly neutral region. It could also be that one you leave Timorous Deep there will be a quest option that directs you to choose your home city, depending on your class.  There will be a city on Kunark, so, it's assumed you could choose that if you like.  Having a true neutral city has one major benefit - all players can come together in one region.  Something with many possibilities as far as factions are concerned, not to mention community in general.  I don't see if it has been said anywhere what the city on Kunark will be or whether it will in fact be neutral, but in keeping with balance I'd assume it will be.

Vonotar
05-15-2007, 03:30 PM
<cite>Finora wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Makes perfect sense to me that a race so different as Sarnak might have different views on good and evil than some human in one of the old cities.</p></blockquote> Exactly, notice that only neutral races would be able to start in the new city.  What if the Sarnak are less interested in your chosen <b>class</b> and far more interested in your <b>race</b>. In other words, a city where the following races:  Barbarian, Erudite, Gnome, Half-Elf, Human, Kerran and (of course) Sarnak would we welcomed regardless of what city they call home or what 'Evil/Good' alignment they follow. However if your, say, an Iksar, Fae, High-Elf, Froglok, Troll, etc etc you would be deemed an outsider and be KOS.

Xyran
05-15-2007, 03:34 PM
<cite>Araxes wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's a smart move to make them neutral.  Do I like it?  No, I'd rather they were evil, as lore has depicted them.  However, it's a smart move for SOE.  Why? </blockquote>Uhhh, perhaps I missed it but I dont see any lore that depicts them as being evil...

mellowknees72
05-15-2007, 03:40 PM
I have to say, it's really disappointing that halflings have gotten the shaft as far as a new place to start out. Seems like most other races have new spots they can start (or will with this next expansion)...but we little guys with the furry feet can only start on the Island. Maybe someday we'll get an expansion city ALL TO OURSELVES! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Winter
05-15-2007, 03:41 PM
<cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Already confirmed: NEUTRAL.</p><p>They start in a city in Timerous Deep, along with Humans, Barbarians, Gnomes, Half Elves, and Erudites. A completely neutral race city.</p></blockquote> <span style="font-size: small; color: #ff66cc; font-family: Comic Sans MS">Scott did comfirm that the Timerous Deep was a neutral area. He did state that it is subject to change though - so all we can do is wait and see.</span>

Galithdor
05-15-2007, 04:00 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>I have to say, it's really disappointing that halflings have gotten the shaft as far as a new place to start out. Seems like most other races have new spots they can start (or will with this next expansion)...but we little guys with the furry feet can only start on the Island. Maybe someday we'll get an expansion city ALL TO OURSELVES! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote> I think on the old forums i saw something about rivervale...but i might be thinking of something else lol

DataOutlaw
05-15-2007, 04:14 PM
<p>Based on the lore on the RoK site it seems that the Sarnak living on these islands are opposed to the evil Iksar which would make them... good.. So if they force the class choice to good or evil then good seems more likely (to me).</p><p> My *preference* would be to see them able to select any class with both good and evil coexisting in the same city united in their purpose to defeat the Iksar through whatever means necessary. This would make for an interesting change on the PvP servers though... </p>

mellowknees72
05-15-2007, 04:23 PM
<cite>DataOutlaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Based on the lore on the RoK site it seems that the Sarnak living on these islands are opposed to the evil Iksar which would make them... good.. So if they force the class choice to good or evil then good seems more likely (to me).</p><p> My *preference* would be to see them able to select any class with both good and evil coexisting in the same city united in their purpose to defeat the Iksar through whatever means necessary. This would make for an interesting change on the PvP servers though... </p></blockquote> Well, I don't know that the Iksar would agree that they are "good"...LOL.

PassingStranger
05-15-2007, 06:42 PM
<p>By no means did good and evil didn't really "walk freely" among each other in EQ1. In the case of differing factions within a single city, there was simply more of a grey area, the opposition wasn't always so readily at your throat. And obviously player characters will always freely interact with each other, but that's just a mix of the fact that not everyone RPs, and from a mechanical standpoint, you simply can't afford to only group with people who are your own faction, because you'd never get anywhere.</p><p>As I noted before, it would work for all classes only if they had a system similar to the human cities of EQ1. You weren't always kos by the good or evil side of Freeport or Qeynos, but by no means does that mean they were on the same side. In Freeport, the Dismal Rage were definetly were not living in harmony with the Knights of Truth and the Temple of Marr; and in Qeynos, the Bloodsabres were not in any sort of peace with anyone on the surface - as a matter of fact, if you were Bertoxxulous worshipper, once you turned in your note to your Bloodsabre guildmaster, the faction hit made you kos to the Qeynos guards.</p><p>A system like that could work to have every class, but having them all on the same side would just be strange. It isn't that the human cities have attached some stigma to classes like paladins and shadowknights and told them that they were good or evil, the moral philosophy is a defining factor of the class. It just doesn't make any sense for two crusaders with violently oppositional philosophies and religions to sit down in the same temple and serve the same cause. You'd need a city with opposed factions, which is something which we have not yet seen in EQ2.</p>

Devilsbane
05-16-2007, 05:47 AM
<p>Sarnaks should be allowed to choose any class. While neutral races should only be able to choose a neutral class. Basically this is the only way to give the Sarnak an option to all the classes. While limiting their city's over all power and influence on Norrath.</p><p>Another way to limit the new city's power and influence on Norrath is simple. Do not offer a betrayal quest until three months after the expansion is released.</p>

Galeden
05-16-2007, 05:24 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>Having every class available in the same city does seem a little overpowering. Having only neutral classes available leaves you with the Sarnak being stuck with only 8 classes while every other race can be any of 24. Very unfair to anyone playing Sarnak. IMO its a neutral city so definitions of good and bad aren't as strict. Therefore you will probably see a mixed choice of good and bad classes while being balanced. Classes that should be available in Sarnak starting city(my thoughts): Shadow Knight Berserker Bruiser Monk Dirge Assassin Brigand Troubadour Fury Inquisitor Mystic Defiler Warlock Conjurer Necromancer Coercer This gives them the same amount of classes any other city starts with and allows Sarnak through a betrayal quest to switch to another class if so desired. </blockquote> Just wanted to comment about this, it would not make any sence to allow both conjurer and necromancer, but limit the neutral class choice to warlocks but not wizards, same for mystic and deliler while not offering warden to go with fury, and zerker and warrior.  Both neutral classes would be a given, then from there pick one of each of the other allignment specific classes.  While this would in a lot of ways solve the problem, it would still be unfare to just pick one of them and not the other, there would have to be some reason for picking one or the other.

Vonotar
05-18-2007, 09:34 AM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>Having every class available in the same city does seem a little overpowering. Having only neutral classes available leaves you with the Sarnak being stuck with only 8 classes while every other race can be any of 24. Very unfair to anyone playing Sarnak. IMO its a neutral city so definitions of good and bad aren't as strict. Therefore you will probably see a mixed choice of good and bad classes while being balanced. Classes that should be available in Sarnak starting city(my thoughts): Shadow Knight,  Berserker,  Bruiser,  Monk Dirge,  Assassin,  Brigand,  Troubadour Fury,  Inquisitor,  Mystic,  Defiler Warlock,  Conjurer,  Necromancer,  Coercer This gives them the same amount of classes any other city starts with and allows Sarnak through a betrayal quest to switch to another class if so desired. </blockquote>So 8 evil classes, 4 good, 4 neutral... can't see that happening. I see no reason not to have all 24 classes, given that the new city will be even further "left-field" than Kelethin and surrounded by level 65+ zones I fully expect that it will not be a convient place to live. Imagine having a journey similar in length to travelling from Kelethin to Butcherblock before you reach a dock where you can travel to level 20+ zones.  I suspect that most players will choose (with a little in-game encouragement from npc's) to move city once they have completed the new lowbie zones. Then possibly returning when they have reached level 70 and want to focus on the highest zones, assuming they haven't become attached to their second city. This is before adding the possibility of making the city neutral aligned on Race, i.e. good and evil RACE being kill on sight by guards (yes this is my pet-theory).

SpritRaja
05-19-2007, 02:53 AM
What makes a class inherently evil or good? Just because you rise the dead does not mean you are evil. Just because you boss your armor all shiny and have a holier than thou attitude does not make you good. This is a neutral city. Classes should be based on the views of the leading Sarnak and what they will and will not allow in their city. Having both a Paladin and a Shadow Knight living next door to each other with such warring beliefs in their just and right cause does not seem to me very realistic in a RPG world.

Snowdonia
05-19-2007, 09:21 AM
I'm curious why a good person, and an evil person, living next door to eachother doesn't seem realistic... We see it every day. Evil and Good have no boundaries on where they are appropriately *meant* to be. Aren't the most cunning and evil people in the world those who feign goodness to cover up their evil side? Why couldn't the same be done here? How well do <i>you</i> know YOUR neighbor? The person across the street? That person who just came knocking on your door trying to sell you magazines? By the sounds of things though, you'd rather think of things in a stereotypical sense. Where good and righteous people live in the well lit, well cared for areas and evil and vile live in the slums. So, there too, having the Paladin live in his holy temple amongst the light of day in a well kept part of the city while the Shadowknight lives in his temple of malice in the underground or seedier parts of the city is still realistic (in this stereotypical sense) and still within the same city walls. They are in essence, next door neighbors, but lightyears apart all the same. To be honest, I had a problem myself trying to visualize how they would accomplish a neutral city with ALL classes (of which I still feel is too powerful a mechanic for a game that is literally split up between good and evil factions) but when I just thought outside the box, I saw it was possible, even if I don't agree that it should be. They did it in EQ1, can't see why it can't be done in EQII. I personally feel the Sarnak should lean more toward the evil classes than the goodly ones for the sole reason that, there were Sarnak in EQ1 that were definately Necromancers and Shadowknights (I've not forgotten being harm touched by those buggers!) so I can't see how they would have lost this. So IMO, aside from all the pure neutral classes (Guardian, Berzerker, Fury, Warden, Wizard, Warlock, Troubadour, and Dirge) Necromancer and Shadowknight should DEFINATELY be selectable initially as a Sarnak.

wesblueeyes
05-21-2007, 10:33 AM
In game balance terms since Kelethin is also a NEUTRAL city with good ties, I see them making Tim Deep a neutral city with evil ties. It would make sense to balance out the power.

agentsix
11-07-2007, 02:17 AM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm curious why a good person, and an evil person, living next door to eachother doesn't seem realistic... We see it every day. Evil and Good have no boundaries on where they are appropriately *meant* to be. Aren't the most cunning and evil people in the world those who feign goodness to cover up their evil side? Why couldn't the same be done here? How well do <i>you</i> know YOUR neighbor? The person across the street? That person who just came knocking on your door trying to sell you magazines? </blockquote>I think it is unwise to compare the eq2 world with the real world. In the real world we have laws that make murder illegal and we punish those that engage in murder. Murder has consquence in the real world (if you are killed you no longer exist.)But in Norrath this isn't so. There are no laws against murder. If you are killed you simply revive and you lose a little time and experience a little damage to your items.In the real world two enemies can live next door to each other because laws protect them. In Norrath, since no such laws exist, one would expect that two enemies could never live next to each other for any length of time.

Gimet
11-07-2007, 09:04 AM
<p>Um...the udated website CLEARLY states under races that the Sarnak are evil.</p><p><a href="http://everquest2.com/allraces.vm?race=019" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://everquest2.com/allraces.vm?race=019</a></p>

Cusashorn
11-07-2007, 10:34 AM
<cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Um...the udated website CLEARLY states under races that the Sarnak are evil.</p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://everquest2.com/allraces.vm?race=019" target="_blank">http://everquest2.com/allraces.vm?race=019</a></p></blockquote>Only by class alignment...

Radigazt
11-07-2007, 12:26 PM
<p>Here's a thought, get rid of this good/evil distinction, give every city it's own faction, and you can live wherever u want, visit wherever you want, and as long as you don't kill too many guards, do writs wherever you want.  Then in PvP ... it wouldn't be this zerg against that zerg, it would be tons of people fighting whatever they see moving.  </p><p> Then every city could have it's own pvp gear and exiles wouldn't have a raid-advantage of being able to get every class together that sucks so many raiders out of the good and evil cities at the level cap just to raid.  </p>