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View Full Version : So what's the new count for the Enchanted Ghoulbane quest?


Cusashorn
04-16-2007, 05:47 PM
The test notes said the azurite capiliaries and enchanted ores have been significantly reduced. What's the new count?

Nizmar
04-17-2007, 09:24 AM
<p>More importantly, are the people who had to pay the ORIGINAL cost to this HQ going to get reimbursed?</p><p>Or should we chalk it up (again) to SOE screwing over the people that do the quests when it is "ready" for live...and find out that we were the Beta testers for it.</p><p>12 ores weren't cheap....and since SOE decided that people needed refunds when they reduced certain adornments, isn't it fair to say we are entitled to some?</p>

xOnaton1
04-17-2007, 09:30 AM
Or how about all the people that did the Strange Black Rock when the scholar didn't take the palladium torque from you? Or how about the people that did the quest from Desert of Flames that gave you a free Master I? It's an MMO. Things change, sometimes in ways you like and sometimes in ways you would have liked.

Prrasha
04-17-2007, 01:27 PM
There is a difference between fixing a bug (a person who wanted a palladium torque not actually taking it) and changing the cost of something. There is a big difference in cost (either gold or time) between one Master1 or one Palladium cluster, and the 120 (on average) treasured items you needed to transmute for this q uest. Going by Najena's normal pricing for these items... Assuming you are a xmuter and buy Treasured at the  usual cheapest price of 10g80s for adept1s... you  spend 13 platinum on this quest.  (It's a bit worse if you try to do it with Legendary items, but only by a plat or so assuming you can sell back the Infusions of Illusion to someone else.) If you're not a transmuter and buy the ores for th e usual listed price on the broker... well... last  night you couldn't do the quest because there wer en't enough ores on the market.  The few that were  there were listed for 2pp, so you'd spend 24 plat inum on this quest. Considering they reimburesed people for 5pp adornments, reimbursement for a 13-24pp quest doesn't seem out of line.

valkyrja
04-17-2007, 01:34 PM
That is assuming that you actually paid for any of that stuff.  If you paid nearly 11gp for each item you transmuted, I'm sorry but that is the stupid tax.  I have been working on this part of the quest for a while now, because I will not buy items to transmute.  It's a total waste of plat, and I come across enough garbage treasured gear day-to-day. People who finished it the "hard" way have the pleasure of being able to say they did.  Just like the people who had to camp Bloodtalon in the old days when he took forever to spawn.  Or just like the people who had to get an X2 to kill Fyst in DFC. People who spent 20pp to do this quest did so because they determined 20pp to be a fair amount, retro-active compensation is not needed. The adornments you mention, on the other hand, were changed.  Which is why refunds on them was the right thing for SOE to do.

Nizmar
04-17-2007, 02:26 PM
<cite>valkyrja wrote:</cite><blockquote>People who spent 20pp to do this quest did so because they determined 20pp to be a fair amount, retro-active compensation is not needed. The adornments you mention, on the other hand, were changed.  Which is why refunds on them was the right thing for SOE to do. </blockquote><p> No, the people who spent 20pp did so because they were to assume that was the cost, that would be the cost, and that will continue to be the cost for that quest.</p><p>The adornments were changed in that the people who bought them, bought them expecting to that they paid for their desired effect, the desired efftect wouldn't change, and it would remain to be that desired effect.</p><p>SOE changed their minds...and gave a refund.  Its only fitting that they do it again for another "change" of theirs.</p><p>Furthermore, <b>Othesus</b> , I'm not saying SOE should TAKE away from people, like you are inferring in your post....you are right....sometimes MMO's do change...but to Lower the cost without trying to set things right to those that did it the original way, is just poor customer service.  If you are to wait and assume EVERY cost, and EVERY quest requirement and EVERY prerequisite will be lowered before engaging in said activity, NOTHING will ever be done in EQ2-land...SOE failed to test out the cost of this quest on their test server and beta enough obviously.  Now that it is live, and people met the standards, to lower it and not give reimbursement like I said will be poor customer service....something I have come to expect from SOE.</p>

Cusashorn
04-17-2007, 02:43 PM
Nobody can answer my question?

valkyrja
04-17-2007, 02:44 PM
<cite>Nizmarck wrote:</cite><blockquote><p> No, the people who spent 20pp did so because they were to assume that was the cost, that would be the cost, and that will continue to be the cost for that quest.</p> </blockquote>I still disagree with this.  I understand your point, but the fact is if you paid for it, you mentally decided that 20pp was a fair price for the reward.  If you didn't consider it a fair price, like I don't, you probably still have this quest in your journal and occasionally get some drops transmuted. To be honest, even if it was only 1 ore, I would still find it to be too expensive, since as a mage what do I need the item for?  And I would still do it the way I have been. Assuming that SOE isn't going to make things easier to get doesn't entitle you to a refund. Now if they nerfed the quest reward to be 1/4 as powerful as it is now, like they did with adornments, i'd agree with you 100%.

lilmohi
04-17-2007, 03:07 PM
<cite>Prrasha wrote:</cite><blockquote>There is a difference between fixing a bug (a person who wanted a palladium torque not actually taking it) and changing the cost of something. There is a big difference in cost (either gold or time) between one Master1 or one Palladium cluster, and the 120 (on average) treasured items you needed to transmute for this q uest. Going by Najena's normal pricing for these items... Assuming you are a xmuter and buy Treasured at the  usual cheapest price of 10g80s for adept1s... you  spend 13 platinum on this quest.  (It's a bit worse if you try to do it with Legendary items, but only by a plat or so assuming you can sell back the Infusions of Illusion to someone else.) If you're not a transmuter and buy the ores for th e usual listed price on the broker... well... last  night you couldn't do the quest because there wer en't enough ores on the market.  The few that were  there were listed for 2pp, so you'd spend 24 plat inum on this quest. Considering they reimburesed people for 5pp adornments, reimbursement for a 13-24pp quest doesn't seem out of line. </blockquote><p> The difference is they reimbursed the money as a result of nerfs.  This item wasn't nerfed.  If it was worth 13pp for you a few weeks ago then it is still worth 13 pp since it is the same item.  Personally i think reimbursing coing for any game change is a bad precedent.  As a developer pointed out, you paid a premium to be one of the first and few to complete the quest.  Until now only people who would get good use out of it or had money to burn would be crazy enough to do it.</p><p>That said if they decided to bump up the vendor value a few pp on the "old item" and then create a new (but identical) sword with a lower sell back that finish the easier quest line, I think would be more reasonable.  After all they did do something like that when they dropped the price of the spirit steeds.</p>

Nizmar
04-17-2007, 03:32 PM
<p>I didn't pay 20pp for the ores, nor do i expect 20pp as a refund.</p><p>I DO expect a refund though.</p><p>If you think the quest is worth it or not is irrelevant.  How one achieved in getting the ores is irrelevant.  If they nerfed the reward or not, is again irrelevant.  My assumptions while doing the quest, and its future ramifications are irrelevant.  If I consider the requirements FAIR or not is irrelevant.</p><p>What is relevant, is that through SOE's lack of planning in its testing and development, what they felt was a fair price at first, is now going to be reduced, and this will go to a LIVE server....a server I pay to be part of.  And people like me are being stuck once again with the bill, having to not only suffer through it once at the more difficult requirements, but to watch as the intrinsic value of having said quest done be "cheapened" to accomodate those who don't want to put the time/effort/cost of doing it as it was originally planned.</p><p>You don't want to get 24 ores for this quest? Fine! Don't do it. </p><p>You don't want to pay for those ores? Fine! find a way around it (save your treasured items/adepts) </p><p>You are going to wait to do this quest until the cost is Lowered? This is cool too!</p><p>You want to say that SOE shouldn't give me and people like me a refund?....too bad.  I say show me how this is any different than having an adornment's worth halved...and then getting a refund from buying it.  </p><p>EITHER WAY,  this whole discussion does not pertain to you, and it should not have ANY impact on you one way or another because as you pointed out, you did not do the quest yet.</p><p>  My rant here is that SOE does this all TOO OFTEN!  They CHEAPEN the accomplishments of few by making it easier for the many.  Well, I think they should start being held accountable for it.</p><p>and lilmohi...explain how something retains its value (13pp as you say) if its required cost is lessened....Last I checked...items like patch kits and tinkered items are CHEAPER now than before their fuel and make costs were lessened.  According to you, these item's prices wouldn't have gone down, but they did. You are right...giving back coin is a bad precedent...but they did it already..with adornments, so they may as well continue with their SET precedent.</p>

Captain Apple Darkberry
04-17-2007, 04:48 PM
<cite>Nizmarck wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I didn't pay 20pp for the ores, nor do i expect 20pp as a refund.</p><p>I DO expect a refund though.</p><p>If you think the quest is worth it or not is irrelevant.  How one achieved in getting the ores is irrelevant.  If they nerfed the reward or not, is again irrelevant.  My assumptions while doing the quest, and its future ramifications are irrelevant.  If I consider the requirements FAIR or not is irrelevant.</p><p>What is relevant, is that through SOE's lack of planning in its testing and development, what they felt was a fair price at first, is now going to be reduced, and this will go to a LIVE server....a server I pay to be part of.  And people like me are being stuck once again with the bill, having to not only suffer through it once at the more difficult requirements, but to watch as the intrinsic value of having said quest done be "cheapened" to accomodate those who don't want to put the time/effort/cost of doing it as it was originally planned.</p><p>You don't want to get 24 ores for this quest? Fine! Don't do it. </p><p>You don't want to pay for those ores? Fine! find a way around it (save your treasured items/adepts) </p><p>You are going to wait to do this quest until the cost is Lowered? This is cool too!</p><p>You want to say that SOE shouldn't give me and people like me a refund?....too bad.  I say show me how this is any different than having an adornment's worth halved...and then getting a refund from buying it.  </p><p>EITHER WAY,  this whole discussion does not pertain to you, and it should not have ANY impact on you one way or another because as you pointed out, you did not do the quest yet.</p><p>  My rant here is that SOE does this all TOO OFTEN!  They CHEAPEN the accomplishments of few by making it easier for the many.  Well, I think they should start being held accountable for it.</p><p>and lilmohi...explain how something retains its value (13pp as you say) if its required cost is lessened....Last I checked...items like patch kits and tinkered items are CHEAPER now than before their fuel and make costs were lessened.  According to you, these item's prices wouldn't have gone down, but they did. You are right...giving back coin is a bad precedent...but they did it already..with adornments, so they may as well continue with their SET precedent.</p></blockquote><p>And while they are at it, SOE can give me back the time I spent on shard runs...   ...and access quests...   ...and return the xp I lost when xp debt was group shared...   ...and give me mad platz for the repairs since Amazing Reflexes was nerfed...   ...and...</p><p>Seriously...   ...get over it.  I picture you stomping your feet when I read your post.  The ~precedent~ set by SOE has NOT been to refund.  One random act of kindness on their part is what you are harping on...</p><p>Sometimes things need to change...</p>

Whtegranite
04-17-2007, 04:57 PM
Lol Ouka I just want to know too :p

ke'la
04-17-2007, 04:59 PM
<cite>Nizmarck wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I didn't pay 20pp for the ores, nor do i expect 20pp as a refund.</p><p>I DO expect a refund though.</p><p>If you think the quest is worth it or not is irrelevant.  How one achieved in getting the ores is irrelevant.  If they nerfed the reward or not, is again irrelevant.  My assumptions while doing the quest, and its future ramifications are irrelevant.  If I consider the requirements FAIR or not is irrelevant.</p><p>What is relevant, is that through SOE's lack of planning in its testing and development, what they felt was a fair price at first, is now going to be reduced, and this will go to a LIVE server....a server I pay to be part of.  And people like me are being stuck once again with the bill, having to not only suffer through it once at the more difficult requirements, but to watch as the intrinsic value of having said quest done be "cheapened" to accomodate those who don't want to put the time/effort/cost of doing it as it was originally planned.</p><p>You don't want to get 24 ores for this quest? Fine! Don't do it. </p><p>You don't want to pay for those ores? Fine! find a way around it (save your treasured items/adepts) </p><p>You are going to wait to do this quest until the cost is Lowered? This is cool too!</p><p>You want to say that SOE shouldn't give me and people like me a refund?....too bad.  I say show me how this is any different than having an adornment's worth halved...and then getting a refund from buying it.  </p><p>EITHER WAY,  this whole discussion does not pertain to you, and it should not have ANY impact on you one way or another because as you pointed out, you did not do the quest yet.</p><p>  My rant here is that SOE does this all TOO OFTEN!  They CHEAPEN the accomplishments of few by making it easier for the many.  Well, I think they should start being held accountable for it.</p><p>and lilmohi...explain how something retains its value (13pp as you say) if its required cost is lessened</p><p><i><b>Its VALUE TO YOU is the same as you looked at the reward and said to me this is worth the 13pp I would have to pay to complete is. To others it was not worth the 13pp so they did not do the quest. IF the reward was worth 13pp to you and SoE did nothing to the Stats of the Reward then it is still worth 13pp TO YOU. That is like saying I bought a computer a few months ago for $2,500 and now that exsact same computer is priced at $1,500... I demand a REFUND of the differance in price... eventhough my computer is no differant then it was when I bought it and I have had the use of it from when I got it until now, that does not matter because people can by my computer for less then I bought it for, therefor the computer company is Scr.... with me. No change was made to the Iteam(making it less valuable as a Iteam) the only thing that changed was the cost to MAKE the iteam THAT is the BIG differance between this and the Adornment Nerfs.</b></i></p><p>like patch kits and tinkered items are CHEAPER now than before their fuel and make costs were lessened.  According to you, these item's prices wouldn't have gone down, but they did.</p><p><b><i>your aboslutly right now everyone that bought those iteams befor the reduction of Fuel an Materials should get a refund. So what if that will add a HUGE amount of new gold and plat into the game causes a Huge amount of inflation, they lowered the cost to use Patch kits and Tinkered iteams, Oh and while we are at it the price of T1 and T2 rare collectables has gone down so I want a refund on the 2pp I payed for those collectables. The fact is that SoE EXPECTED the price to go down on its own as more Transmuters came up and more people competed the quest, this did not happen, so now they desided to "force" the prices down. Also I want a Refund on the 3 or 4 other HQs that at one time required a Rare Pelt or Stone but now only require a more commin "glowie stone/tooth" as that lowered the cost of completing those quests.</i></b></p><p> You are right...giving back coin is a bad precedent...but they did it already..with adornments, so they may as well continue with their SET precedent.</p><p><i><b>So even you agree it was a Bad disision to refund people coin for the adornment Feasco, but compounding that desision by making it again only makes a Bad deision worst and will eventually lead to the down fall of the game. So stop making things worst by BEGGING for free coin, and just play the game.</b></i></p></blockquote><p>::EDIT:: <strike>added color coding to denote what each paragraph is in responce to and added the green Paragraph</strike></p><p>::EDIT 2:: Won't let me add color for some reason so put my responces in line with what they are responding to and in Bold <i>Italics</i></p>

Vorlak
04-17-2007, 05:27 PM
<p>I think the orginal poster wanted to know the amount of ores now needed for the quest, not peoples opinion on the change.</p><p>For those that are complaining about the change that people have done feedback on for a while now.</p><p>Do you expect a refund from your auto dealer when your neighbor buys the same car/model/year but for 8k less then you?, Or How about do you expect a refund from the TV store when you buy a TV for $2,800.00 to see it on sale next month for 1,800.00 w/ 12m same as cash?</p><p>As for the comment - they cheepen the accomplishment of the few, for the ease of the many... well DUH, its a game for more then a "Few" people, at the end of the day 800 of 1000 people happy and paying next month is better then 300 of 1000 people happy. As your mother probably told you "the world dosnt revolve around you".</p><p>shesh, btw I would like to know the amount of ore now needed too! </p>

Lord Montague
04-17-2007, 05:46 PM
<p>Bob the Brigand: "Mr. Turtle, how many enchanted adamantine ore does it take to get an empowered ghoulbane?"</p><p>Mr. Turtle:  "Oh, I never could make it without the post turning into a whinefest.  Ask Mr. Hoo'Loh"</p><p>...</p><p>Bob the Brigand:  "Mr. Hoo'Loh, how many enchanted adamantine ore does it take to get an empowered ghouldbane?"</p><p>Mr. Hoo'Loh:  "Hmm..let's see then.  1...2...3....ZOMG!  SOE GIMME BACK MY PLATZ!  NOW!!!!"</p><p>Bob the Brigand sighs in disappointment.  So just how many enchanted adamantine ore does it take?  The world may never know... <img src="/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

Cusashorn
04-17-2007, 05:48 PM
[email protected] Bayle wrote: <blockquote><p>Bob the Brigand: "Mr. Turtle, how many enchanted adamantine ore does it take to get an empowered ghoulbane?"</p><p>Mr. Turtle:  "Oh, I never could make it without the post turning into a whinefest.  Ask Mr. Hoo'Loh"</p><p>...</p><p>Bob the Brigand:  "Mr. Hoo'Loh, how many enchanted adamantine ore does it take to get an empowered ghouldbane?"</p><p>Mr. Hoo'Loh:  "Hmm..let's see then.  1...2...3....ZOMG!  SOE GIMME BACK MY PLATZ!  NOW!!!!"</p><p>Bob the Brigand sighs in disappointment.  So just how many enchanted adamantine ore does it take?  The world may never know... <img src="/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote><p>Thank you.</p><p><span style="font-size: large">SOMEBODY ANSWER THE **** QUESTION PLEASE!</span></p>

Prrasha
04-17-2007, 05:55 PM
The cost of this quest made it nigh-impossible to find groups working on it on Live.  I'd be very surprised if there was a single toon on Test that happened to be partway through the Empowered Ghoulbane quest at the time of this change. So, barring a Dev answer, I don't think there will be one posted here for at least a few days...  any 68+ folk on Test are probably working through the new Mount quest, not starting Symbol in the Flesh. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Cusashorn
04-17-2007, 06:00 PM
Yeah I suppose you're right. I'll find out soon enough anyways.

Nizmar
04-17-2007, 06:31 PM
<p>Ok, it seems that obviously what I was trying to say sparked interest in the mentally handicapped schools, since they all wanted to come out and post, so let me help break it down for you.</p><p>First off, VALUE vs WORTH.....</p><p>Something can be of HIGH worth to someone, but not be of HIGH VALUE....Like a shiny little pebble that keeps Captain Apple Dingleberry occupied for hours....it may be WORTHLESS to the rest of us, but she regards it as WORTH a lot to her....either way, Dingleberry and the rest of us can assure that NO bank will regard that shiny little pebble as VALUE-ABLE....</p><p>My point here is that the WORTH of completing the quest TO ME has not changed...The VALUE of it is going to...and that is the problem.  The WORTH of it may be 13pp to me, but the new sword's VALUE is going down...and can....so again..how can something's VALUE stay the same when the costs to make it go down?</p><p> Ok...onto the next bit of retorts....</p><p>TV's, Cars, Computers...use whatever item you want.  If you go to buy something, and come to find that the EXACT item is being sold at the SAME time CHEAPER to someone else....and you won't argue or complain...then obviously you are an idiot.  THIS IS NOT THE SAME AS VALUE DEPRECIATION OVER TIME, or someone finding a better deal on same item from another vendor...This is you and I go to a store and buy an item...it costs me 100 dollars...it costs you 10 dollars.  </p><p>Next part of some of your "wonderful" adds to this conversation</p><p>I don't want plat...I never said I wanted plat.  Actually, I would like the 2 illusionary powders, 10 hanging root and one adamantine ore for each less "enchanted" ore that I wouldn't have had to spend....and I really don't think there is any PLAUSIBLE reason why those couldn't be returned to me...</p><p>And to all the little snide comments:</p><p> I don't want the world to revolve around me...I want what's fair to me and to others.  That's the point.  If it was too much work/money whatever to have 12 enchanted ores...have SOE return to me what they should have made it in testing/beta....and to those of you that want your returns on shard runs, and access quests and your Amazing Reflexes repairs or whatever......maybe you should have been complaining to SOE instead of HARPING (?)[...do people still use that word?] on people trying to complain about SOE's CURRENT screwup.</p><p>And I too want to know what the final reduction is...but only to figure out how much SOE owed me.</p>

sah
04-17-2007, 06:49 PM
SOE doesn't owe you anything.  Things are constantly changing in an MMO and you shouldn't expect some sort of compensation everytime something changes.  There was one time where SOE decided to be nice and give players their money back (which was a huge mistake) and now people are using that to argue for compensation every time something changes.  Within days of EoF's release, people knew that there was a good chance that this quest would be changed and because of that, there are many people who decided to wait until the quest was changed.  It was your choice to finish the quest earlier.

Oakum
04-17-2007, 07:08 PM
<p>So how many does it take now?</p><p>A refund of the materials to make or the enchanted items would be fair and the adornments have set a precedent for refunds. </p><p>It would be easier to write that code then figuring out the "fair market value" of the adornments were that plat was given out for. </p><p>Does player have or completed quest or updated enchanted ore/capillary part of quest. If yes then take amount of updates, subract new needed amount. If amount over 0, place that much in inventory.</p><p>I am not a coder, but how hard is that to write for those of you who are?</p>

sah
04-17-2007, 07:18 PM
No it hasn't set a precedent.  They did it one time to be nice and because of posts like in this thread, they will probably never ever do it again...I don't think there are any MMO's out there where everytime something get changed, people get compensated...

Nizmar
04-17-2007, 07:21 PM
<cite>sahet wrote:</cite><blockquote> and now people are using that to argue for compensation every time something changes.  Within days of EoF's release, people knew that there was a good chance that this quest would be changed and because of that, there are many people who decided to wait until the quest was changed.  It was your choice to finish the quest earlier.</blockquote><p> ....and they SHOULD argue for compensation....if SOE can't figure out what they are doing while the product is still in beta, they have no right to charge me for it if its not finished....having a change like this come along what FIVE months after the release is inexcusable....</p><p>And if there were SO MANY people that knew...why was it not changed earlier?  Why wasn't there any comment by the devs on the status of this quest until now....You make it sound like I failed somehow by accepting and COMPLETING a quest the way it was set out in my PAID expansion to do....If SOE wanted it to be less, they should have thought of that before releasing it as so....Again this sounds like people want to make excuses FOR SOE....</p><p>And yes, it was my choice to finish the quest early...but trust me, if it came with a warning that said "WARNING: The quest requisites will change five months from now and become much cheaper for you to make...you may want to hold off for a bit...."  I WOULD HAVE!  Instead, I took to faith that SOE planned and MEANT for the quest to be and STAY at what it cost....</p><p>It was THEIR CHOICE to change it....and by doing so, they are screwing over all the people that didn't get that psychic premonition that this quest would be altered 5 months down the road....But if you aren't one of those people...which obviously it sounds like you aren't with your ESP powers....why does it concern you if I want reimbursed for my losses?</p>

sah
04-17-2007, 07:26 PM
<p>SOE did comment about this quest.  Several months ago a dev stated that they would consider changing the requirements for this quest after the economy stabilizes.</p><p>Like I said, things are constantly changing in any MMO and you shouldn't expect to be compensated for those changes.  There isn't a single MMO out there that I'm aware of that compensates players for every single change that is made to the game.</p>

Nizmar
04-17-2007, 07:34 PM
<p>Yeah, the devs consider doing a lot of stuff</p><p>and i'm not expecting to be righted for EVERY wrong that SOE has done...but this is something they can and should do......</p><p>and again...if you didn't do this quest...what does it matter to you if they fix what they messed up to whoever did the quest?</p>

sah
04-17-2007, 07:40 PM
<p>I have done the quest and I personally would like to be compensated.  But I think that it is a huge mistake to compensate players and I think that SOE has already learned their lesson and won't ever be compensating players again especially not for something that affects a small population of the players.  I seriously doubt that SOE would be stupid enough to make the same mistake twice.</p>

Prrasha
04-17-2007, 07:43 PM
Compensation for every single change?  No.  Compensation for changes of a certain magnitude?  Apparently. Perhaps some of you haven't been in the game that long, but there was a Stablehand who would refund (most) of your money if you'd bought the Spirit Steed/Maj'Dul prior to LU16.  The cost was reduced from 60pp to 14(?)pp, with no stat-based nerf to the item. I'm not going to dig through recent update notes, but I think there were two instances of refunds for changed adornments.  (If it was only the one for the health/power adorn nerf, it doesn't really change my argument here.) So, the precedent seems to be "regardless of whether there was a nerf to stats, or just a reduction in buy price, there will be a refund for an item worth more than X platinum", where X seems to be somewhere between 2 and 5.

Nizmar
04-17-2007, 07:44 PM
sahet wrote: <blockquote><p>  I seriously doubt that SOE would be stupid enough to make the same mistake twice.</p></blockquote><p> Don't ever doubt that....it was their stupidity that got them in this jam in the first place.</p><p>And I don't understand why you would like to be compensated, but you are against it....kinda straddling the fence there don't ya think?</p>

Oakum
04-17-2007, 07:49 PM
<cite>Nizmarck wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Yeah, the devs consider doing a lot of stuff</p><p>and i'm not expecting to be righted for EVERY wrong that SOE has done...but this is something they can and should do......</p><p><b>and again...if you didn't do this quest...what does it matter to you if they fix what they messed up to whoever did the quest?</b></p></blockquote><p>As some other post said, it gives those who didnt do it yet something to <strike>whine</strike> put out a negative opinion about. LoL. From the looks of the "don't refund the item posts" they are some very long winded <strike>whines</strike> opinions too.</p><p>Suppose I should be nice, they can't help the way they are. Lining out whines. </p><p>I am sure that they really think that refunding the items will be such a very bad game destroying decision by SOE. The economy on all servers will collapse and all us transmuters will be put out of business, ect, ect, ect. Of course they could be transmuters trying to keep their profits margins up by not having to compete with the raws, ores, or capillaries put back in the game too. </p>

Iseabeil
04-17-2007, 10:32 PM
<p>Id loved to get my fir and rare pelt back when they changed the components needed on PGT and manastone, they might not be worth as much as the admanatine ore is today, but back when the game was new they were quite expensive and the means of income was way lower then they are now (Back then, the costs for those rares was beyond my reach on broker and only way to get them was harvesting it yourself, and rares were rare. I can afford to buy adamantine ore without a too big dent in my economy today, wich shows the changes in 'global' economy that has happened). No one got any 'refunds' on those changes, and I really cant see why this should be different. The adornement refunds has really nothin to do with changes regarding a quest, the only thing they share is their tie to transmuter and that they were changed. Its an mmorpg and mechanics will always change, if they are to 'refund' people for every change they make, its gonna get real messy.</p>

ke'la
04-17-2007, 11:26 PM
<cite>Prrasha wrote:</cite><blockquote>Compensation for every single change?  No.  Compensation for changes of a certain magnitude?  Apparently. Perhaps some of you haven't been in the game that long, but there was a Stablehand who would refund (most) of your money if you'd bought the Spirit Steed/Maj'Dul prior to LU16.  The cost was reduced from 60pp to 14(?)pp, with no stat-based nerf to the item. I'm not going to dig through recent update notes, but I think there were two instances of refunds for changed adornments.  (If it was only the one for the health/power adorn nerf, it doesn't really change my argument here.) So, the precedent seems to be "regardless of whether there was a nerf to stats, or just a reduction in buy price, there will be a refund for an item worth more than X platinum", where X seems to be somewhere between 2 and 5. </blockquote><p>A) they did not refund ANYTHING, all they did was lower the price of the Mount from 60pp to 14pp, while giving a way for people that spent 60pp on a mount to get the 60pp back instead of only getting like 10pp back.</p><p>B) The Stablemaster is a Money sink it takes money out of the game, as such money coming back into the game from selling an iteam back to him is not damaging as that is not what amounts to a Duplicating of money. Buying from other players is NOT taking money out of the game and therefor is Duplication Money.</p><p>C) The lowering of the price of the Wistle on the stable master is something SoE had direct control over. IF the prices of the Transmutable Resources go down, it will not have an Impact on what the GAME consiters the value of the iteam is.</p><p>And I am sorry but the "Sale Arguments" do apply to these complainers. If you buy something and 2 days latter that exsact same store has a Sale and the Exasct same Iteam is on sale for 50% less then what you paid for it. Are you going to Demand a refund of the differace(if you are your an Axx) and if you do, do you really think they will give it too you?</p>

Noaani
04-17-2007, 11:49 PM
<cite>Nizmarck wrote:</cite><blockquote>No, the people who spent 20pp did so because they were to assume that was the cost, that would be the cost, and that will continue to be the cost for that quest.</blockquote><p>And this, right here, is where you made the mistake.</p><p>This is a MMORPG. It changes. It changes often.</p><p>If at any time there is something you are not happy to do, due to the cost (including time) involved, do not do it. If you are happy with the cost involved, do it.</p><p>When the access quest to Poets Palace was changed from rewarding a master spell to just an adept, I had 2 toons finish it the day the chage was made. Those 2 master that I missed out on as a reward later on cost me a combined 85p, if you get compensated for this change, i want my 85p for that change. However, I do not expect this, as this game changes often.</p><p>I would also like my carpet to be what it was when I origionally got it from the quest, and I would like the run speed 'buff' wizards had the day DoF was released, and i want WotBP to work with Fireshape/Manaburn combo again. But hey, the game changes. Deal with it.</p>

Prrasha
04-17-2007, 11:55 PM
ke'la wrote: <blockquote><cite>Prrasha wrote:</cite><blockquote>Compensation for every single change?  No.  Compensation for changes of a certain magnitude?  Apparently. Perhaps some of you haven't been in the game that long, but there was a Stablehand who would refund (most) of your money if you'd bought the Spirit Steed/Maj'Dul prior to LU16.  The cost was reduced from 60pp to 14(?)pp, with no stat-based nerf to the item. I'm not going to dig through recent update notes, but I think there were two instances of refunds for changed adornments.  (If it was only the one for the health/power adorn nerf, it doesn't really change my argument here.) So, the precedent seems to be "regardless of whether there was a nerf to stats, or just a reduction in buy price, there will be a refund for an item worth more than X platinum", where X seems to be somewhere between 2 and 5. </blockquote><p>A) they did not refund ANYTHING, all they did was lower the price of the Mount from 60pp to 14pp, while giving a way for people that spent 60pp on a mount to get the 60pp back instead of only getting like 10pp back.</p><p>B) The Stablemaster is a Money sink it takes money out of the game, as such money coming back into the game from selling an iteam back to him is not damaging as that is not what amounts to a Duplicating of money. Buying from other players is NOT taking money out of the game and therefor is Duplication Money.</p><p>C) The lowering of the price of the Wistle on the stable master is something SoE had direct control over. IF the prices of the Transmutable Resources go down, it will not have an Impact on what the GAME consiters the value of the iteam is.</p><p>And I am sorry but the "Sale Arguments" do apply to these complainers. If you buy something and 2 days latter that exsact same store has a Sale and the Exasct same Iteam is on sale for 50% less then what you paid for it. Are you going to Demand a refund of the differace(if you are your an Axx) and if you do, do you really think they will give it too you?</p></blockquote>A) for what definition of "refund" is "giving back the 60pp so you can spend 14pp on a replacement" not refunding the difference between 60pp and 14pp?  I think you're arguing just to argue. B) Who said anything about money?  I'd much rather have the illusionary powders back.  I've just been using money to describe the magnitude of this change, versus, say, the change from a fir stick to a sparkling flower for the Axe from the Past. C) see (B).  Also, there is a floor on the value of illusionary powders, at about 5x the cost of merchant sellback of an adept1 book.  If the powder is ever "worth less" than that on the broker, a transmuter can make more money just vendoring his loot and not transmuting at all.  So SoE has some control over the price.

valkyrja
04-18-2007, 01:35 AM
<cite>Nizmarck wrote:</cite><blockquote>ke'la wrote: <blockquote><p>And I am sorry but the "Sale Arguments" do apply to these complainers. If you buy something and 2 days latter that exsact same store has a Sale and the Exasct same Iteam is on sale for 50% less then what you paid for it. Are you going to Demand a refund of the differace(if you are your an Axx) and if you do, do you really think they will give it too you?</p></blockquote><p> Like I said before...THIS IS NOT the case....THE two QUESTS (one before change and one after change) are PRECISELY the same item....The expansion and current situation of the game has not changed...the result of the quest has not changed...EVERYTHING IS IDENTICAL!  </p><p>To use your example: (which i have said previously) Is if you go into a store, buy an item for 100 dollars, and 5 minutes later, I go into the exact same store, and buy the exact same item, but for 10 dollars......</p><p>Are you going to tell me you aren't gonna feel grated about it?  Are you trying to tell me there is no reason for you to be upset about it?   This whole argument isn't over economy or sales or whatever...its about a game reducing the "cost" for a quest, and then you people expecting those that didn't get the "cost" reduced to be totally accepting of it.  Granted, SOE will do whatever they want to..they always do but that doesn't mean I have to LIKE IT and it definitely can be used as yet ANOTHER example of how SOE caused a problem through faulty testing and customer service.</p><p>And to reply to the person that stated that I made a "mistake" because MMORPG changes...DUH!!  That's one of the reasons I play MMORPGS instead of platforms...But it is NOT a mistake to assume certain quests will remain unchanged nor did I simply OVERLOOK a warning that it was going to change.  And about your whining about the poet's access...maybe instead of arguing with people that are complaining, you should join them and try to get SOE to stop with this erratic "modifying" and maybe you would have received your masters...And all your other whinings...maybe you should have stopped "dealing with it" and instead joined others that are sick of "Dealing with it", or at the very least, kept your opinions to yourself and "deal with" people like me complaining about it.</p></blockquote>If you go to the store right now and buy any computer, 3 months later that exact same model will be significantly cheaper.  Everyone accepts this because that is what happens when you're the early adopter.  Sometimes you end up having spent more than people will at a later date for the EXACT SAME ITEM. What it boils down to is the quest designer came up with a set of criteria for completion of the quest.  Months later, he probably ran a database query and found that very few people have completed the quest, and he is probably even able to see what step most people made it to before continuing.  Noting that a lot of people gave up at this step, he decided it would be a good idea to change the criteria so more people can complete it.  You completed it at an estimated cost of 13 plat or so, at that time you were an early adopter and decided it was a fair cost.  Just like someone who buys a top-of-the-line computer today pays more than someone will pay for that exact same computer in a few months. 

Prrasha
04-18-2007, 04:12 AM
First, disclaimer.  I'm a sub-350 transmuter.  If they don't refund me anything, I'm out exactly N powders for every N ores the ghoulbane's quest is reduced by (since I was getting skillups on the way to 350 doing two-powder ores instead of one-powder adornments.)  If I get nothing back, I'm not going to be angry. Second, those people who are not transmuters are out the broker/market value of N adamantine ores.  They might be angry. Now... <i><b>sahet wrote:</b></i> <blockquote><p>The thing that you don't seem to understand is that SOE doesn't owe you anything.  You chose to complete the quest early with the high cost rather than wait until the cost was lowered. <b>And SoE gave a timetable for this cost-lowering when?  Pushing a quest out to some indeterminate time isn't an answer. </b> MMO's are constantly changing and like I've already said, there isn't a single MMO out there where people get compensated for every little change that's made.  SOE already made the mistake of compensating players for a change they made and they've probably learned from that mistake and are never going to do it again... <b>They've done it at least twice, both times for changes of multi-plat magnitude (45 plat reduction on horses, and the 5+ plat health/power adornment nerf).  This change is in that ballpark.  Like it or not, the precedent has been set.  That you dislike the precendent does not change this.  That SoE may not like the precedent does not change this, though they're well within their rights to treat this change however they want.  (And the people who feel wronged might be mad.  And many of them will rant here.)</b><b> </b></p><p>Also, there is no way they could have predicted the cost during beta.  Beta buffers essentially turned everyone into 350 transmuters/tinkerers, there were vendors that sold adornments, and people during beta would essentially give away items for free rather than trying to sell it for 15+ gold each... <b>Actually, they have a floor price.  It takes 120 Treasured items to get (on average) 24 illusionary powders.  T7 Adept1s sell to the vendor for, what, 520 silver?  (That might be T6, actually.)  So 120x520sp = 6plat,24gold.  That's the floor value if, like in Beta, transmutation was free.  In the real world, people paid to get their transmuters up to 300 skill, and may want more than vendor sellback value for their adept1s.  Since "two times vendor value" seems to be a pretty standard tradeskilling markup, I don't see why estimating 10-15 plat would have been out of line... basic math gets you there.</b> </p></blockquote>

sah
04-18-2007, 05:08 AM
<p>well 45 plat reduction is a freakin huge amount...this quest only costs about 12plat max so the amount reduced is going to be smaller...and the change to adornments was also a huge change that affected a ton of people of all levels (many top guilds had all their mains equipped with both adornments already)...this change affects a small number of people and the difference is not a big amount of plat...if they compensate players for this change then they are going to have to compensate players for every other change they make from now on which is not something that they probably want to do...</p>

lilmohi
04-18-2007, 10:33 AM
Nizmarck wrote: <blockquote><p>and lilmohi...explain how something retains its value (13pp as you say) if its required cost is lessened....Last I checked...items like patch kits and tinkered items are CHEAPER now than before their fuel and make costs were lessened.  According to you, these item's prices wouldn't have gone down, but they did. You are right...giving back coin is a bad precedent...but they did it already..with adornments, so they may as well continue with their SET precedent.</p></blockquote><p> So you expect them to refund guilds for all the more expensive patch kits they used in the past?  I bought a piece of set armor for 15 pp, a few weeks later i saw several on the broker for 8pp, should i demand a refund now that my item has obviously been devalued?  Nonsense.  It was worth it for me when i bought it at 15pp and while i'm sad i didn't wait a little longer for the price to drop, it is still one of my most valued items.  There is far more precedent for soe to go back and make a quest or zone easier after it has been out a while than there is precedent for refunding value.  </p><p>Let me also add that since i'm not a transmuter and haven't finished the quest, if they refunded everyone the items it would be make it even cheaper still for me to finish the quest once those refunded components start to flood the market.  However i'm still opposed to it because to put simply refunding money or items is generally bad for the economy.  Furthermore if for every hour they spend implementing a fix in this game they had to spend 2hrs calculating and implementing code to refund those who were affected then it would take even longer to get things fixed than it already does.</p>

Gungo
04-18-2007, 11:08 AM
Btw nizmark your wrong this quest was yoru decisiion the items value did not change. This item cost me nothign because i got all my own powders farming. And a friend did the the adamantium ores for free. Either way. The items value did NOT change. IF they would of reduced the quality of the ghoulbane you may have a debate, but you don't.

Hawk The Slayer
04-18-2007, 11:52 AM
<p>Sooooooooo getting back to the OP - before it all got out of hand "How many do u know need" plz <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p> I have already done this quest - and i have also done many many quests that have been changed.</p><p> But thats the nature of the game - im sure it does state in the EULA that the game play will change <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

Prrasha
04-18-2007, 12:11 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>Btw nizmark your wrong this quest was yoru decisiion the items value did not change. This item cost me nothign because i got all my own powders farming. And a friend did the the adamantium ores for free. Either way. The items value did NOT change. IF they would of reduced the quality of the ghoulbane you may have a debate, but you don't.</blockquote>The item didn't "cost you nothing".  The powders you got through farming have value.  Had you not had your transmuter friend destroy them all for you, you would have, at minimum, the vendor sellback value of those 100+ treasured/legendary items.  Which is probably 6-7 plat.  So it did, in fact, cost you that much.   The fact that your transmuter friend did the work meant that that part did "cost you nothing", but only because it cost your friend, instead, to level up to 300 transmuter.  I do transmuting work (and all crafting work, for that matter) for my guildies for free, too, but that doesn't change the time/money investment I've made.  It just makes me a nice guy. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

valkyrja
04-18-2007, 12:47 PM
You know, it just occurred to me, as a 350 tinkerer, that they recently halved the amount of raws needed for every tinkering recipe.  Under you assumption of what's owed to you, SOE should refund me THOUSANDS or raws.  My bags will probably be overflowing next time I log in!  You have to realize that what you are asking for would define a dangerous precedent. 

Nizmar
04-18-2007, 02:25 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>Btw nizmark your wrong this quest was yoru decisiion the items value did not change. This item cost me nothign because i got all my own powders farming. And a friend did the the adamantium ores for free. Either way. The items value did NOT change. IF they would of reduced the quality of the ghoulbane you may have a debate, but you don't.</blockquote><p> gotta love it when gungo adds his drunken, half unintelligible 2 cents in.</p><p>Could you translate that into a somewhat decent statement or argument, and I'll retort....and um, spellcheck helps immensly when you are trying to make a point.</p><p>As for Valk's statement....Maybe SOE does owe you some loams and stuff...but then again, you didn't complain...actually, even if you did complain, you'd have some idiot that has nothing better to do with their time complain about it even though they have no DIRECT Interest in it one way or another Argue why they shouldn't....much like some people here <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

valkyrja
04-18-2007, 02:34 PM
<cite>Nizmarck wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>Btw nizmark your wrong this quest was yoru decisiion the items value did not change. This item cost me nothign because i got all my own powders farming. And a friend did the the adamantium ores for free. Either way. The items value did NOT change. IF they would of reduced the quality of the ghoulbane you may have a debate, but you don't.</blockquote><p> gotta love it when gungo adds his drunken, half unintelligible 2 cents in.</p><p>Could you translate that into a somewhat decent statement or argument, and I'll retort....and um, spellcheck helps immensly when you are trying to make a point.</p><p>As for Valk's statement....Maybe SOE does owe you some loams and stuff...but then again, you didn't complain...actually, even if you did complain, you'd have some idiot that has nothing better to do with their time complain about it even though they have no DIRECT Interest in it one way or another Argue why they shouldn't....much like some people here <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote>That's my point though dude.  If you complain about this, and they refund it, then people can demand a refund for every other change that is made in the game and have a reasonable precedent. It's not so much if I feel you're entitled to it, as it is that I realize that SOE doing so is a downward spiral of "you did it for this, so you have to do it for me" every single time they make a change to the game.  Should they have realized this issue early on?  Yeah.  But at least they are trying to fix it so more players are capable of completing it.

EvilIguana9
04-18-2007, 03:16 PM
[email protected] Bayle wrote: <blockquote><p>Bob the Brigand: "Mr. Turtle, how many enchanted adamantine ore does it take to get an empowered ghoulbane?"</p><p>Mr. Turtle:  "Oh, I never could make it without the post turning into a whinefest.  Ask Mr. Hoo'Loh"</p><p>...</p><p>Bob the Brigand:  "Mr. Hoo'Loh, how many enchanted adamantine ore does it take to get an empowered ghouldbane?"</p><p>Mr. Hoo'Loh:  "Hmm..let's see then.  1...2...3....ZOMG!  SOE GIMME BACK MY PLATZ!  NOW!!!!"</p><p>Bob the Brigand sighs in disappointment.  So just how many enchanted adamantine ore does it take?  The world may never know... <img src="/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote> You guys are busy arguing and thus ignoring the best post in this thread.  It also happens to be the only one that made even a non serious attempt at answering the question posed by the thread author. 

Cusashorn
04-18-2007, 03:24 PM
<cite>EvilIguana966 wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] Bayle wrote: <blockquote><p>Bob the Brigand: "Mr. Turtle, how many enchanted adamantine ore does it take to get an empowered ghoulbane?"</p><p>Mr. Turtle:  "Oh, I never could make it without the post turning into a whinefest.  Ask Mr. Hoo'Loh"</p><p>...</p><p>Bob the Brigand:  "Mr. Hoo'Loh, how many enchanted adamantine ore does it take to get an empowered ghouldbane?"</p><p>Mr. Hoo'Loh:  "Hmm..let's see then.  1...2...3....ZOMG!  SOE GIMME BACK MY PLATZ!  NOW!!!!"</p><p>Bob the Brigand sighs in disappointment.  So just how many enchanted adamantine ore does it take?  The world may never know... <img src="/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote> You guys are busy arguing and thus ignoring the best post in this thread.  It also happens to be the only one that made even a non serious attempt at answering the question posed by the thread author.  </blockquote> Actually, it was the only attempt made PERIOD.

Benzeneironpants
04-18-2007, 03:33 PM
This is like the shark fin thread in the tradeskills discussion, very entertaining.  Thank you.  <img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

valkyrja
04-18-2007, 03:58 PM
This thread doesn't hold a candle to the Shark Fin thread.

Hellswrath
04-18-2007, 03:59 PM
<cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>EvilIguana966 wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] Bayle wrote: <blockquote><p>Bob the Brigand: "Mr. Turtle, how many enchanted adamantine ore does it take to get an empowered ghoulbane?"</p><p>Mr. Turtle:  "Oh, I never could make it without the post turning into a whinefest.  Ask Mr. Hoo'Loh"</p><p>...</p><p>Bob the Brigand:  "Mr. Hoo'Loh, how many enchanted adamantine ore does it take to get an empowered ghouldbane?"</p><p>Mr. Hoo'Loh:  "Hmm..let's see then.  1...2...3....ZOMG!  SOE GIMME BACK MY PLATZ!  NOW!!!!"</p><p>Bob the Brigand sighs in disappointment.  So just how many enchanted adamantine ore does it take?  The world may never know... <img src="/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote> You guys are busy arguing and thus ignoring the best post in this thread.  It also happens to be the only one that made even a non serious attempt at answering the question posed by the thread author.  </blockquote> Actually, it was the only attempt made PERIOD.</blockquote> And probably the only attempt until the GU goes live, since most people have blatantly ignored the original question.  I'd like to know how many it takes now as well!

Prrasha
04-18-2007, 04:57 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>EvilIguana966 wrote:</cite><blockquote> You guys are busy arguing and thus ignoring the best post in this thread.  It also happens to be the only one that made even a non serious attempt at answering the question posed by the thread author.  </blockquote>Actually, it was the only attempt made PERIOD.</blockquote>And probably the only attempt until the GU goes live, since most people have blatantly ignored the original question.  I'd like to know how many it takes now as well!</blockquote>Nah, I gave the real answer upthread.  Given the original cost of the quest, the chance of there being a toon on Test who's partway through Empowered Ghoulbane is approximately zero.  So there's nobody but a dev who knows the answer.

Rommie10-284
04-18-2007, 06:59 PM
<cite>Prrasha wrote:</cite><blockquote>Nah, I gave the real answer upthread.  Given the original cost of the quest, the chance of there being a toon on Test who's partway through Empowered Ghoulbane is approximately zero.  So there's nobody but a dev who knows the answer </blockquote>You lose - I happen to have 2 characters at that point in the quest on Test. The answer is - One.  One Enchanted Adamantine Ore.

Prrasha
04-18-2007, 10:04 PM
Woohoo! I did say "approximately" zero. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Of course, "1 ore" means the Refund Patrol really does have a beef.  "4 ores" or "6 ores" would have made it arguable.

FaileE
04-19-2007, 04:46 AM
<div align="left"><span style="font-size: x-small">ONE ??? are they kidding me, I did the darn ghoulbane step about an hour before they posted the GU 34 preview, thanks so much sony. </span><div align="left"><span style="font-size: x-small">And to the peeps saying stuff like "if you buy a computer now it'll be half price in 6 months" --- wakey wakey guys, with RL stuff prices you know beforehand that it'll go down in price over time cause.....well, EVERYthing does. But not many things in game had their prices lowered over time and so there was no way anybody could have expected that and make a decision about buying now for more or buying later for less, cause there simply is no precedent for this in this game, meaning it was absolutely impossible to expect and take into consideration before doing the quest !</span><span style="font-size: x-small">And let's get real for a bit guys, a price cut by 95% after about 4 or 5 months ? Gimme just ONE RL example for that, since some guys earlier in the thread started their RL comparisons. In RL you can whine all you want and no company will lower their prices because of that, in EQ2 it obviously seems to work now, so now let us whine to get a compensation for doing the quest early, fair's fair, eh ?</span></div><span style="font-size: x-small">I vote for ppl at least getting 11 of the ores back. Still doesn't give me back the money, but I can at least give the crap to guildies so they don't need to buy the powders.</span></div>

sah
04-19-2007, 05:23 AM
<p>life isn't fair...  <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  SOE isn't gonna compensate players for a little change like this just because a few people whine about it because people whine too much and are going to be demanding compensation for every future change they make if they do it now...and this sort of change isn't exactly unprecedented...many quests have been nerfed in the past...something in this game gets nerfed pretty much every month...</p><p>now that that's been said...give me back my 11 adamantine ores so that I can finish the quest for half my guild!!!  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

Noaani
04-19-2007, 07:56 AM
<cite>FaileEQ2 wrote:</cite><blockquote><div align="left"><span style="font-size: x-small">ONE ??? are they kidding me, I did the darn ghoulbane step about an hour before they posted the GU 34 preview, thanks so much sony. </span><div align="left"><span style="font-size: x-small">And to the peeps saying stuff like "if you buy a computer now it'll be half price in 6 months" --- wakey wakey guys, with RL stuff prices you know beforehand that it'll go down in price over time cause.....well, EVERYthing does. But not many things in game had their prices lowered over time and so there was no way anybody could have expected that and make a decision about buying now for more or buying later for less, cause there simply is no precedent for this in this game, meaning it was absolutely impossible to expect and take into consideration before doing the quest !</span><span style="font-size: x-small">And let's get real for a bit guys, a price cut by 95% after about 4 or 5 months ? Gimme just ONE RL example for that, since some guys earlier in the thread started their RL comparisons. In RL you can whine all you want and no company will lower their prices because of that, in EQ2 it obviously seems to work now, so now let us whine to get a compensation for doing the quest early, fair's fair, eh ?</span></div><span style="font-size: x-small">I vote for ppl at least getting 11 of the ores back. Still doesn't give me back the money, but I can at least give the crap to guildies so they don't need to buy the powders.</span></div></blockquote><p>Since your the one compairing this to RL, I'm gonna point out to you that reguardless of what happens,you do not own the coin on your characters, SoE does.</p><p>Sure, they could refund it all to you, but SoE would still own it. They could remove all of the coin from your character, because they own it, not you </p>

lilmohi
04-19-2007, 11:27 AM
<cite>FaileEQ2 wrote:</cite><blockquote><div align="left"><div align="left"><span style="font-size: x-small">And let's get real for a bit guys, a price cut by 95% after about 4 or 5 months ? Gimme just ONE RL example for that, since some guys earlier in the thread started their RL comparisons. </span></div></div></blockquote> Enron stock <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Dropped 99% in value virtually overnight.  While they were involved in illegal activity, there have been tons of legal and massively overpriced fad items (on ebay) that just as quickly fell out of favor.

Hellswrath
04-19-2007, 11:40 AM
<cite>Prrasha wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>EvilIguana966 wrote:</cite><blockquote> You guys are busy arguing and thus ignoring the best post in this thread.  It also happens to be the only one that made even a non serious attempt at answering the question posed by the thread author.  </blockquote>Actually, it was the only attempt made PERIOD.</blockquote>And probably the only attempt until the GU goes live, since most people have blatantly ignored the original question.  I'd like to know how many it takes now as well!</blockquote>Nah, I gave the real answer upthread.  Given the original cost of the quest, the chance of there being a toon on Test who's partway through Empowered Ghoulbane is approximately zero.  So there's nobody but a dev who knows the answer. </blockquote><p> Actually, this was an attempt to explain why there won't be an answer.  That doesn't mean this suddenly becomes an answer to the question.  Not to mention that if there is one person that was willing to post an answer, there are most likely more than one who are at that step.  However, that would be a guess as well.  But nice try at a recovery! <img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Oh, and agreed about the refund police.  Nice phrase, lol.</p><p>Thanks a ton for the post, Rommie!</p>

Prrasha
04-19-2007, 03:26 PM
<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Sure, they could refund it all to you, but SoE would still own it. They could remove all of the coin from your character, because they own it, not you </p></blockquote>http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=non%20sequitur If they don't like your posts here, they could delete all your characters, because they own them.  This has anything to do with the refund argument how? But I like where you're going with this... how about if SoE removes coin from the characters who are arguing against a refund, because if they were willing to spend and extra 6 plat on a quest, they should be happy spending and extra 12 plat on it.  Then give that coin to the people arguing for a refund.  No extra plat in the system to 'ruin the economy' so the anti-refund folks are happy (and it wasn't their plat anyway, it's all SoE's)... and the poor folk didn't lose out on their coin, so all the pro-refund folks are happy!  Win-win situation for teh win! For the record, I don't want coin, so just take 22 illusionary powders from some of the anti-refund folks and put them in my bank, plz.  I'm more worried about how this quest has overbalanced the price of illu powders compared to other tiers. (I wonder if I can out-silly the anti-refund arguments... this post might be a good first step.)

Nizmar
04-19-2007, 10:05 PM
<cite>Nizmarck wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>More importantly, are the people who had to pay the ORIGINAL cost to this HQ going to get reimbursed?</p><p>Or should we chalk it up (again) to SOE screwing over the people that do the quests when it is "ready" for live...and find out that we were the Beta testers for it.</p><p>12 ores weren't cheap....and since SOE decided that people needed refunds when they reduced certain adornments, isn't it fair to say we are entitled to some?</p></blockquote>Seems like now that we know that the new cost is ONE....kinda puts what I've been saying into a new light  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

ke'la
04-20-2007, 06:23 AM
<cite>FaileEQ2 wrote:</cite><blockquote><div align="left"><span style="font-size: x-small">ONE ??? are they kidding me, I did the darn ghoulbane step about an hour before they posted the GU 34 preview, thanks so much sony. </span><div align="left"><span style="font-size: x-small">And to the peeps saying stuff like "if you buy a computer now it'll be half price in 6 months" --- wakey wakey guys, with RL stuff prices you know beforehand that it'll go down in price over time cause.....well, EVERYthing does. </span><div align="left"><div align="left"><ul><li><div align="left"><span style="font-size: x-small">First off I did make a RL argument that had nothing to do with computers but apearently it got deleted because of how I started it. (wich btw looking back it probly should have been). That argument was Coke(the soft drink). On Tuesday mins befor the store closes you buy a 12 pack of Coke for $4.50, the you go back on Wendsday right when the store opens and now the Coke is $2.50 a 12 Pack, are you going to goto the manager then and demand a refund?</span></li></ul><div align="left"><span style="font-size: x-small">But not many things in game had their prices lowered over time and so there was no way anybody could have expected that and make a decision about buying now for more or buying later for less, cause there simply is no precedent for this in this game, meaning it was absolutely impossible to expect and take into consideration before doing the quest !</span></div><ul><li>There accually is Precedent in the game for them making quests and other things easier to complete or get done, 1) they just turned DFC from a 2x Epic to a Heroic zone making 2 HQs far easier to complete, 2) They Changed a Rare Pelt requirment to a Glowy Tooth(of the same tier as the pelt), 3) They just lowered the requirments on making Tinkered stuff, 4) They changed the requirment for a Rare Rock to a Glowy Stone of the same tier. 5) they removed subcombines... Need I go on?</div></li></ul><span style="font-size: x-small">And let's get real for a bit guys, a price cut by 95% after about 4 or 5 months ? Gimme just ONE RL example for that, since some guys earlier in the thread started their RL comparisons. In RL you can whine all you want and no company will lower their prices because of that, in EQ2 it obviously seems to work now, so now let us whine to get a compensation for doing the quest early, fair's fair, eh ?</span></div></div><ul><li><span style="font-size: x-small">No people don't Whine to get the prices lowered they(just like they did here) don't buy(or in this case do the quest) the Iteam and the price then must drop to get people to buy(or in this case do the quest) the Iteam.</span></div></li></ul></div><p><span style="font-size: x-small">I vote for ppl at least getting 11 of the ores back. Still doesn't give me back the money, but I can at least give the crap to guildies so they don't need to buy the powders.</span></p><ul><li><span style="font-size: x-small">Um when a company does lower prices to get people to buy there goods, does any of the "early adopters" get there money back? NO. Look at the Xbox 360(you can't tell me its VALUE has gone down, if anything as there are now more quality games available its VALUE has accually gone up) its price has dropped drumaticly, why? because all the people willing to shell out $600 did now they need to get more people to buy it... is Microsoft going to give the Early adopters a refund? No. And don't give me that tech argument (see the coke analogy above)</span></li></ul></blockquote><p>Giving refunds because a change means some players had to do more then others to complete a quest or do anything is a BAD present to set and if they do that they WILL end up destorying the game.</p><p>Take a good look at the ESRB Rating that comes up EVERY TIME the game loads, "Things can change durring online play" if something changes that you don't like your not entitled to ANYTHING, other then quiting, or maintaining you account and whining about it on the boards. The devs don't have to and shouldn't do anything for you. </p>

Hazeroth
04-20-2007, 10:18 AM
Sorry for going off of topic, but I feel compeled to mention that if SoE were to give everyone back the powders and such then the market would flood. If the number got cut down to 6 or so and SoE were to give you 6 powders back, and if say 50 people had spent money on powder, what number do we have? 300 Powders on the market. What happens when you have that many on the market? Everyone will be undercutting everyone else and before you know it during this time of market the powders you may have spent 1 plat on may now be only work 33G or 20 or what ever. Then you will be [Removed for Content] off at the other players for making powder cheap. You can't win.

liveja
04-20-2007, 12:11 PM
<cite>Prrasha wrote:</cite><blockquote> Of course, "1 ore" means the Refund Patrol really does have a beef. </blockquote> I'm failing to see why. Could you explain, please?

kenm
04-20-2007, 12:51 PM
One? Wow, it wasn't even hard nor time consuming to finish the quest in it's current state.  Yay for whiners getting everything in this game dumbed down so any idiot can accomplish anything with completely minimal effort.

Oakum
04-20-2007, 03:07 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>Btw nizmark your wrong this quest was yoru decisiion the items value did not change. This item cost me nothign because i got all my own powders farming. And a friend did the the adamantium ores for free. Either way. The items value did NOT change. IF they would of reduced the quality of the ghoulbane you may have a debate, but you don't.</blockquote><p> Yes, but if the value of the end product is such that less money is spent to make it, then the quality was deemed not to the worth the money it was costing. Basically SOE decided that Empowered ghoulbane is not worth the cost of getting 24 powders. </p><p>If a store sold you a product for 2400 dollars and then 2 days later lowers the price due to it not being worth 2400 because they made a pricing error and its cost is 100 dollars, would you take it back and ask for a refund or the difference between the old and new prices? I would and 99.9 percent of stores would give it as fair too even though they lose some profit. They want repeat customers. Not angry customers that tell everyone not to shop there because they rip you off and don't make it up to you when they discover they made a mistake AND you approach them about it. </p>

sah
04-20-2007, 03:17 PM
Oakum wrote: <blockquote>If a store sold you a product for 2400 dollars and then 2 days later lowers the price due to it not being worth 2400 because they made a pricing error and its cost is 100 dollars, would you take it back and ask for a refund or the difference between the old and new prices? I would and 99.9 percent of stores would give it as fair too even though they lose some profit. They want repeat customers. Not angry customers that tell everyone not to shop there because they rip you off and don't make it up to you when they discover they made a mistake AND you approach them about it. </blockquote> If that's the case then the only way you're going to get your refund is to cancel your account...99% of people who have done the quest are not going to be cancelling their account just because they don't get a refund so there's really no need for SOE to refund players...the majority of players who have already done the quest won't even care about the change or will have completely forgotten about it by the next game update...

Tyrani
04-20-2007, 03:37 PM
<p>This may have been asked before (I honestly just grazed through the post), but why would you buy all the components off of the broker as opposed to getting them yourself over time?  Is it the need for instant gratification...where the end is more enjoyable than the journey?</p><p>Think about all the other stuff that has drastically changed in the game.  I don't recall tinkerers being in an uproar about them halving the component cost for tinkering when many spent tons of money to get to 350.</p><p>As with everything...there is an expensive/fast way...and a cheap/slow way.  This is no different really.  If you spent tons of money, you opted to take the expensive route.  I guess I find it kind of humorous that people are wanting refunds for paying out money to purchase powders when you can essentially get them for free.</p><p>If I'm off base...please correct me, as I haven't done the quest because of the immense time it's taken to get all the powders.</p>

Oakum
04-20-2007, 03:56 PM
<cite>Tyranire wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>This may have been asked before (I honestly just grazed through the post), but why would you buy all the components off of the broker as opposed to getting them yourself over time?  Is it the need for instant gratification...where the end is more enjoyable than the journey?</p><p>Think about all the other stuff that has drastically changed in the game.  I don't recall tinkerers being in an uproar about them halving the component cost for tinkering when many spent tons of money to get to 350.</p><p>As with everything...there is an expensive/fast way...and a cheap/slow way.  This is no different really.  If you spent tons of money, you opted to take the expensive route.  I guess I find it kind of humorous that people are wanting refunds for paying out money to purchase powders when you can essentially get them for free.</p><p>If I'm off base...please correct me, as I haven't done the quest because of the immense time it's taken to get all the powders.</p></blockquote><p>Because to get it yourself means you have to choose to be a transmuter and then buy  the items to break down and tradeskill to get the skill ups. I spent 80+ plat I would guestimate for me to get to 300 and thats being very conservative as I would be buying 5- 10 items as I got an extra plat and bought necessities like totems, repairs, ect. The other choice would be to make a new alt and not do T7 stuff in the game which is only okay if you are into alts. I tried it and got tired of that very fast. </p><p>Plus you can't be a tinkerer unless you change over as soon as you got your quest done. The tinkerers actually make a lot more useful items that are "tinkerer use only" (fd, rez, ect). Once a transmuter makes gets the raws for his/her adorments and the HQ, the only way they can help their character is by selling transmuted items/adornments/raws and buying masters/equipment with the money they make. Once they are mastered and have the best available equipment on the broker, thats it, no longer useful except to help guildies who want items transmuted. Thats okay by me but a lot of people want to be a tinkerer because it helps more in the long run for adventuring more then transmuting does once you get your adornments. </p>

Prrasha
04-20-2007, 05:39 PM
<cite>Tyranire wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>This may have been asked before (I honestly just grazed through the post), but why would you buy all the components off of the broker as opposed to getting them yourself over time?  Is it the need for instant gratification...where the end is more enjoyable than the journey?</p><p>Think about all the other stuff that has drastically changed in the game.  I don't recall tinkerers being in an uproar about them halving the component cost for tinkering when many spent tons of money to get to 350.</p><p>As with everything...there is an expensive/fast way...and a cheap/slow way.  This is no different really.  If you spent tons of money, you opted to take the expensive route.  I guess I find it kind of humorous that people are wanting refunds for paying out money to purchase powders when you can essentially get them for free.</p><p>If I'm off base...please correct me, as I haven't done the quest because of the immense time it's taken to get all the powders.</p></blockquote> Because, as has been pointed out upthread, the cost is the same either way. 1)  Bob the Paladin does "whatever" and gathers 13 platinum pieces (quests, farming zones, 250+ tradeskill writs...)  He buys a number of items off the broker, finds a transmuter, and gets his Ghoulbane parts made.  He may have done this prior to the quest, and had 13 platinum on hand, making this a "fast" way to do the quest.   2) Bob the Paladin goes out and farms mobs until he has enough items.  <b>At this point</b>, he has 13 platinum worth of items.  If he chooses to give them to a transmuter to get Ghoulbane parts made, <b>he is still out 13 platinum</b>, because he chose not to sell the items for their market value on the broker, instead. So you're half-correct.  There's an expensive/fast way, and an expensive/slow way. You just mistakenly assumed the slow way was "cheap"... and this is a mistake made thousands of times in discussions like this.   People who haven't taken (or remembered) their Econ 101 class from college forg et that things that aren't actual physical money are equivalent to money, including "time".   (And I think you know in the back of your head that this is true, since you haven't done the quest for just this reason.  Time = money.)

Prrasha
04-20-2007, 05:51 PM
<cite>livejazz wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Prrasha wrote:</cite><blockquote> Of course, "1 ore" means the Refund Patrol really does have a beef. </blockquote>I'm failing to see why. Could you explain, please?</blockquote>Go back upthread and read.  The 12 platinum market-value reduction.  Precedent. I'll even be nice and spot you one, since I thought of one anti-precedent for this. 1) H/P adornments.  Big platinum change (and item nerf), refund. 2) Guild level 30 mounts.  Big platinum change, no nerf, refund. 3) Higher-cost housing.  Big platinum change (for the 5 rooms), no nerf, no refund. Two outta three ain't bad.  (Tho the houses did get the lower rent going forward, of course, and relinquishing a house never repaid you, so it was known to be a 100% sunk cost, so the anti-refunders have the weakest of the three arguments.)

sah
04-20-2007, 06:07 PM
What about all of the adornment nerfs that have happened since the health/power adornment nerfs that didn't have any refunds?  Like all of the subsequent adornment nerfs, the change to this quest is something that affects a relatively small number of players.  The health/power adornment nerf on the other hand was something huge...By the time the nerf happend, some guilds already had 50 or more of those adornments equipped and some individual players had 10 or more of those adornments just on one character...Also, the adornments for all tiers were nerfed which meant that it wasn't just lvl 70's affected...

Prrasha
04-20-2007, 07:12 PM
<cite>sahet wrote:</cite><blockquote>What about all of the adornment nerfs that have happened since the health/power adornment nerfs that didn't have any refunds?  Like all of the subsequent adornment nerfs, the change to this quest is something that affects a relatively small number of players.  The health/power adornment nerf on the other hand was something huge...By the time the nerf happend, some guilds already had 50 or more of those adornments equipped and some individual players had 10 or more of those adornments just on one character...Also, the adornments for all tiers were nerfed which meant that it wasn't just lvl 70's affected...</blockquote> And how many of those other adornment nerfs were 75% of the item's power?  The H/P adorns went from +400 to +100. Curiously, this is a reduction of 92% percent of the item's c ost.  It's a <b>bigger change</b> than the H/P adornment one. So it's more deserving of a refund; thanks for helping the pro-refund folks make their case... changes of a certain magnitude are worthy of compensation, and this one seems to be over the line. Though for the sake of the transmuting market, I s till think the refund should be in illusionary powders rather than raw coin.  (Anecdotal whatever:  There was a person offering a Hardened Mana in exchange for Illusionary Powders on Najena last night... for "whatever you think is a fair number of powders".  I don't know if the deal went through or what the final mana/powder cost was... but that should tell you something about this quest's effect on the economy.) (edit, bad numbers the first time)

sah
04-20-2007, 08:03 PM
<p>My point is that the hp/power adornment nerf was a huge change that affected thousands of players whereas this change affects a small number of players...If they refund players just because a small number of people whine about it then they're going to end up having to do alot more refunds in the future which is probably something that they don't want to do...and as someone previously said, refunds are done to keep players from leaving after a change...changing this one quest without a refund is very likely not going to result in very many people leaving.....</p><p>But if there is a refund, it better be either plat or ores/capillaries because refunding powders would just wreak havoc on the whole adornment economy...</p>

Prrasha
04-20-2007, 08:40 PM
<cite>sahet wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>My point is that the hp/power adornment nerf was a huge change that affected thousands of players whereas this change affects a small number of players...If they refund players just because a small number of people whine about it then they're going to end up having to do alot more refunds in the future which is probably something that they don't want to do...and as someone previously said, refunds are done to keep players from leaving after a change...changing this one quest without a refund is very likely not going to result in very many people leaving.....</p><p>But if there is a refund, it better be either plat or ores/capillaries because refunding powders would just wreak havoc on the whole adornment economy...</p></blockquote> So it's fair to screw over a small number of players, but not a large one?  What's the name of this logical fallacy, Ad Minoritem? What in the world is there a /petition command for, then?  Looks to me like a method for somewhere between a single player and a 24-player raid to get recompense for something broken or bugged. And you're contradicting yourself.  If this is a small number of players, then it can't wreak havoc with a serverwide economy.  Please decide how large a change this is before posting again, thanks. Finally... <i>BREAK</i> the T7 adornment economy?  Lowest current prices on Najena, T5-T7... Powders: 50 @ 90sp in T5 50 @ 3gp in T6 28 @ 54-79gp in T7 Infusions: 15 @ 45gp in T5 18 @ 45-70gp in T6 22 @ 56-90gp in T7 Mana: 15 @ 70-100gp in T5 2 @ 3.5pp in T6 (only two up for sale total) 6 @ 6pp in T7 (and 7 more @ 7-8pp) ...so, which tier had broken powder prices, again?  The one where they cost as much as infusions, or more per powder if you want to get enough to use all the cheap infusions you can buy?  Um....

Iseabeil
04-21-2007, 03:57 AM
<cite>Prrasha wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>livejazz wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Prrasha wrote:</cite><blockquote> Of course, "1 ore" means the Refund Patrol really does have a beef. </blockquote>I'm failing to see why. Could you explain, please?</blockquote>Go back upthread and read.  The 12 platinum market-value reduction.  Precedent. I'll even be nice and spot you one, since I thought of one anti-precedent for this. 1) H/P adornments.  Big platinum change (and item nerf), refund. 2) Guild level 30 mounts.  Big platinum change, no nerf, refund. 3) Higher-cost housing.  Big platinum change (for the 5 rooms), no nerf, no refund. Two outta three ain't bad.  (Tho the houses did get the lower rent going forward, of course, and relinquishing a house never repaid you, so it was known to be a 100% sunk cost, so the anti-refunders have the weakest of the three arguments.) </blockquote><p>4) Manastone ('nerf' on required components for completion of HQ, no refund)</p><p>5) Polished Granite Tomahawk ('nerf' on required components for completion of HQ, no refund)</p>

Prrasha
04-21-2007, 02:25 PM
<cite>Iseabeil wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>4) Manastone ('nerf' on required components for completion of HQ, no refund)</p><p>5) Polished Granite Tomahawk ('nerf' on required components for completion of HQ, no refund) </p></blockquote>If I recall correctly, that wasn't a nerf to prices.  (And I'm pretty sure I do, because I made most of my cash by harvesting back in those days). Glimmering teeth, at least, got priced comparatively to engraved leather for quite  some time (months) after the change. Either way, on which server was severed fir or engraved leather going for 5+ platinum?  You're helping the pro-refund side <i>again </i>by pointing out the best non-refund arguments only deal with single- or sub-platinum changes...

Iseabeil
04-21-2007, 04:03 PM
<cite>Prrasha wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Iseabeil wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>4) Manastone ('nerf' on required components for completion of HQ, no refund)</p><p>5) Polished Granite Tomahawk ('nerf' on required components for completion of HQ, no refund) </p></blockquote>If I recall correctly, that wasn't a nerf to prices.  (And I'm pretty sure I do, because I made most of my cash by harvesting back in those days). Glimmering teeth, at least, got priced comparatively to engraved leather for quite  some time (months) after the change. Either way, on which server was severed fir or engraved leather going for 5+ platinum?  You're helping the pro-refund side <i>again </i>by pointing out the best non-refund arguments only deal with single- or sub-platinum changes... </blockquote><p> Forget the value, it has no bearing whatsoever due to mudflation. The amount of ingame money that the average player today has to their name is beyond what was possible back then, you simply can not compaire todays prices with those back then, its like comparing the prices today on with the prices 100 years ago. As for the costs of the uncommon harvests needed in the combines, they were atleast on my server bellow what the rares costed originally, AND most importantly, its was much easier to get one by yourself and thus pay nothing since they were not 'rare' but 'uncommon'. Sure, it didnt go from bein a pain in the <beep> quest to a cakewalk, but it was a lot easier and afforable.</p>