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View Full Version : Easy fix to help cloth casters live longer and stand a chance in PvP


CresentBlade
03-28-2007, 12:19 AM
<p>It sounds easy but not sure how hard would be to put into affect. We all know cloth casters have had it really bad for a really long time, so lets help them out. My idea is to simply remove the ability to track invis, this would help casters ALOT. Scouts still keep their tracking but just cant track invis anymore.</p><p>This really would not affect Scouts much since alot say they dont use track anyway and would make the game much more interesting. And you could look at it from a roleplaying aspect also if needed. Since Scouts can stealth and are masters of it then they can track it, they know what to look for and how its done. Now Inivs is magic and something Scouts dont know as well, should be darn near impossible for them to track this. Heck for all we know invis lets the person move around without even touching the ground so you would leave no trail, how could you track that?</p><p>Just a thought to make cloth casters a more viable class, we all know that Scouts can destroy casters so wouldnt it make sense that cloth casters would come up with some way to try and avoid Scouts. I am not sure how all this would work but would add a whole new twist to PvP and finally give the Scouts something to keep on their toes about.</p><p>What do you all think?</p>

HerbertWalker
03-28-2007, 12:23 AM
<p>Well, since my lvl 33/46aa wizard is a total bad mf with manasheild, soloing orange brigands and all classes except fury regularly, I would say that I disagree with your premise - that all cloth casters are less than viable in solo PvP.</p><p>And you are talking about solo PvP.  Let's not forget that.  A pretty pointless discussion, unless you are of the mindset that the game is intended to be balanced solo.</p>

Ammem
03-28-2007, 12:24 AM
Only Rangers and Assassins can track invis, unless you you use a see invis totem. Also we casters do stand a chance in PvP, but people need to learn to play them. I will destroy on my Wizard as long as you're within 5-8 levels within my level range and solo. The hard part is resists. That is the main problem, not the armour.

Sinistria
03-28-2007, 03:13 AM
i am not sure if if this would "solve" anything but: i realy wonder what invis is for. i mean almost every class can see it anyway and you get totems for everything. so give everybody an ability for something and noone has an advantage. invis is a great thing if not everybody can see you anyways. generaly i think invis and stealth shouild be less easy to see. the only use is on mobs, everything else is useless.

Firam
03-28-2007, 07:19 AM
<cite>Gildorath wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>It sounds easy but not sure how hard would be to put into affect. We all know cloth casters have had it really bad for a really long time, so lets help them out. My idea is to simply remove the ability to track invis, this would help casters ALOT. Scouts still keep their tracking but just cant track invis anymore.</p><p>This really would not affect Scouts much since alot say they dont use track anyway and would make the game much more interesting. And you could look at it from a roleplaying aspect also if needed. Since Scouts can stealth and are masters of it then they can track it, they know what to look for and how its done. Now Inivs is magic and something Scouts dont know as well, should be darn near impossible for them to track this. Heck for all we know invis lets the person move around without even touching the ground so you would leave no trail, how could you track that?</p><p>Just a thought to make cloth casters a more viable class, we all know that Scouts can destroy casters so wouldnt it make sense that cloth casters would come up with some way to try and avoid Scouts. I am not sure how all this would work but would add a whole new twist to PvP and finally give the Scouts something to keep on their toes about.</p><p>What do you all think?</p></blockquote>1.  If a scout tells you they don't use track in PvP they're either lying, or stupid.  That's not an insult either.  If you have the ability to track players but do not use it, you are bad at playing your class.  Pick something that doesn't have track and gets other abilities to make up for it if you don't like it. 2.  Invis totems would make track almost completely worthless if this change went live.  Every class, including scouts, who doesn't get invis as a native spell would carry a bag of them.  Viola, track is now completely defunct.  WT.. F?

Spyderbite
03-28-2007, 08:47 AM
<cite>Firamas wrote:</cite><blockquote>1.  If a scout tells you they don't use track in PvP they're either lying, or stupid.  That's not an insult either.  If you have the ability to track players but do not use it, you are bad at playing your class.  Pick something that doesn't have track and gets other abilities to make up for it if you don't like it. </blockquote>QFT... If a scout doesn't instinctively turn on Tracking upon entering a zone every time, its time for him/her to shelve that character and re-roll another one. My tracking window is up all the time, set to PC Only, with the exception of my in town errands. For a scout not to turn on tracking while in group is simply a dis-service to the group. That's half the purpose of his/her presence. /shakes head  I'm a newb and even <b>I </b>knew that! XD

Alycs
03-28-2007, 04:15 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><cite>Firamas wrote:</cite><blockquote>1.  If a scout tells you they don't use track in PvP they're either lying, or stupid.  That's not an insult either.  If you have the ability to track players but do not use it, you are bad at playing your class.  Pick something that doesn't have track and gets other abilities to make up for it if you don't like it. </blockquote>QFT... If a scout doesn't instinctively turn on Tracking upon entering a zone every time, its time for him/her to shelve that character and re-roll another one. My tracking window is up all the time, set to PC Only, with the exception of my in town errands. For a scout not to turn on tracking while in group is simply a dis-service to the group. That's half the purpose of his/her presence. /shakes head  I'm a newb and even <b>I </b>knew that! XD </blockquote>Spyder...you are NOT a newb..hush. Flat out...my scout has track up as soon as I LOG IN...it's habitual now.  Even if I logged out in town.  /shrug Why?  That window HAS to be there.  And I'm usually carrying an unnamed number of see invis totems for when I'm NOT with a wizzy type that can give me see invis.  Why? I'm sorry...a wizzy's root LANDS on me...I'm screwed...and NOT in a pleasant way.  Know how I know this?  I've gone toe to toe with a wizzy a time or more (LOTS more) and if the root sticks..I'm screwed...if not...I've got a chance.  CHANCE mind you.  My best chance against ANY caster...especially wizzy and mezzer types....catch 'em unawares or at least get in close enough for my major stun attack to hit BEFORE they can root or mezz me.  And this is after playing her first as a swashy then a brig. Casters are NOT near as helpless as people think.  Yah..they can die quick.  But jeeez. As for the tracking invis....Rangers and Assasins are designed to be mage killers.  Period.

Bozidar
03-28-2007, 04:16 PM
<p>got a fix that requires no programming..</p><p>get them a group</p>

Balrok
03-28-2007, 04:20 PM
<p>Spare me the pitty party.  I play a clothy and anytime someone wants to track me, I welcome it.  I'll have an active Butterfly totem and constantly circle 360 watching for trackers.  The fact is, any good mage will own a fighter or scout if they see them first... good healer, bit more of a challenge.  A couple resists and we are in trouble, but that levels the playing field.</p><p>I say leave as it, I don't want to LOSE the ability to see stealth.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Exur - 65 Coercer on Venakor</p>

JimmyC01
03-28-2007, 04:36 PM
<cite>HerbertWalker wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Well, since my lvl 33/46aa wizard is a total bad mf with manasheild, soloing orange brigands and all classes except fury regularly, I would say that I disagree with your premise - that all cloth casters are less than viable in solo PvP.</p><p>And you are talking about solo PvP.  Let's not forget that.  A pretty pointless discussion, unless you are of the mindset that the game is intended to be balanced solo.</p></blockquote> HerbertWalker...try coming up with the bigboys and stop the level locking already!!! Before they had manshield the clothie was worthless against scouts. I have over 6000 kills with this guy and have killed many scouts solo...if I see them first my odds are much higher. Most of the time though I'm dead in seconds with no chance at hitting manshield at all. Until you hit level 70 and see what PvP is really like please don't even coment on this subject.

Norrsken
03-28-2007, 04:52 PM
<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>got a fix that requires no programming..</p><p>get them a group</p></blockquote>Got ma fix that doesnt even require a group. Learn the class. I have a lock buddy that is an army on his own. And a wizzy buddy that regularly kill reds.

DngrMou
03-28-2007, 05:24 PM
<p>Dear SOE,</p><p>Please nerf every other class but mine.  Ok, thanks.</p><p>Love, Youris</p>

HerbertWalker
03-29-2007, 12:36 AM
<cite>JimmyC01 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>HerbertWalker wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Well, since my lvl 33/46aa wizard is a total bad mf with manasheild, soloing orange brigands and all classes except fury regularly, I would say that I disagree with your premise - that all cloth casters are less than viable in solo PvP.</p><p>And you are talking about solo PvP.  Let's not forget that.  A pretty pointless discussion, unless you are of the mindset that the game is intended to be balanced solo.</p></blockquote> HerbertWalker...try coming up with the bigboys and stop the level locking already!!! Before they had manshield the clothie was worthless against scouts. I have over 6000 kills with this guy and have killed many scouts solo...if I see them first my odds are much higher. Most of the time though I'm dead in seconds with no chance at hitting manshield at all. Until you hit level 70 and see what PvP is really like please don't even coment on this subject.</blockquote><p>This thread's premise is that all cloth casters are less than viable in solo PvP.  Mine is not.  He's locked in T4.  He owns.</p><p>I negated the premise of the thread with a single example of a bad mf wizard.  Get more specific with the discussion if you only want to discuss T7 only.</p>

dnice74
03-29-2007, 01:18 AM
<cite>JimmyC01 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>HerbertWalker wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Well, since my lvl 33/46aa wizard is a total bad mf with manasheild, soloing orange brigands and all classes except fury regularly, I would say that I disagree with your premise - that all cloth casters are less than viable in solo PvP.</p><p>And you are talking about solo PvP.  Let's not forget that.  A pretty pointless discussion, unless you are of the mindset that the game is intended to be balanced solo.</p></blockquote> HerbertWalker...try coming up with the bigboys and stop the level locking already!!! Before they had manshield the clothie was worthless against scouts. I have over 6000 kills with this guy and have killed many scouts solo...if I see them first my odds are much higher. Most of the time though I'm dead in seconds with no chance at hitting manshield at all. Until you hit level 70 and see what PvP is really like please don't even coment on this subject.</blockquote> Game over.

Bozidar
03-29-2007, 02:55 AM
<p>last time i checked pvp enabled at lvl 10, not lvl 70... </p><p>Hmm.. guess they changed that?  Can we get a dev to clue us in on it?</p>

Aeg
03-29-2007, 11:51 AM
<p>a silly change like making mages untrackable isnt going to fix real combat. </p><p>personally i have no problems with casters dying as fast as they do now either. where we dont stand a chance is when we get 4 resists in a row. and then get ganked in less then 6 seconds by any one type of scout.</p><p>casters, especially sorcerors, have no contingency plan when their crowd controls get resisted. if a assassin runs up and missed on decap, they can follow up with alot of other abilties, as every melee class can. but when your root gets resisted and you have a scout with inspiration/en garde in your face, there is absolutely nothing you can do.</p><p>the bottom line is spell resists need to be altered in favor of spell casters.</p>

shiftyt
04-01-2007, 06:43 AM
<cite>JimmyC01 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>HerbertWalker wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Well, since my lvl 33/46aa wizard is a total bad mf with manasheild, soloing orange brigands and all classes except fury regularly, I would say that I disagree with your premise - that all cloth casters are less than viable in solo PvP.</p><p>And you are talking about solo PvP.  Let's not forget that.  A pretty pointless discussion, unless you are of the mindset that the game is intended to be balanced solo.</p></blockquote> HerbertWalker...try coming up with the bigboys and stop the level locking already!!! Before they had manshield the clothie was worthless against scouts. I have over 6000 kills with this guy and have killed many scouts solo...if I see them first my odds are much higher. Most of the time though I'm dead in seconds with no chance at hitting manshield at all. Until you hit level 70 and see what PvP is really like please don't even coment on this subject.</blockquote>Good point.    What class you play at different levels makes all the difference. I'd say healer is the best level till they get to the mid 50's  then the whole thing changes.    A wizard has no chance at 70 against a Swashy/Brigand , Ranger/Assassin unless their Bomb Hits, which most of the time it gets resisted (even with master). and once there on you you can forget ever getting another spell off.     Its about what level your playing at.

HerbertWalker
04-03-2007, 01:11 AM
<p>Oh yeah, I forgot.  No talking about any tiers other than T7.</p><p>If manashield works in T1-T6 (maybe too well), then perhaps the simple fix is to scale manashield up in T7.  Starting in T6, manashield can now be cast while stunned/stifled.   Done, Wizards Fixed.   Which caster do we need to fix next?</p>

Valdar
04-03-2007, 05:36 AM
<p>Speaking as a part-time wizard we don't need more shields, we need our nukes to land. More shields will only mean that it will take the average scout 2s longer to kill us.</p><p>I can count the number of times sniper shot got deflected/parried/whatever, and I don't remember ever "resisting" a brigand double up combo or a bruisers happy slapping, but on my wizard I'm lucky if I can land a nuke.</p>

Killque
04-03-2007, 11:08 AM
Cloth casters can be just as hard or harder than some of the other classes. For Wizards, get your Ward's maxed and balance your gear with INT STA and AGI. Nothing else to fix IMO.

slashalot
04-03-2007, 11:42 AM
<cite>Killque wrote:</cite><blockquote>Cloth casters can be just as hard or harder than some of the other classes. For Wizards, get your Ward's maxed and balance your gear with INT STA and AGI. Nothing else to fix IMO.</blockquote> except for the resists. doesn't matter how much shields i have, if everything is resisted then its no use. when way green toons attack me and resist almost everything then there is something wrong. this has happened sooooo many times.

Bugsy--
04-03-2007, 10:18 PM
Apprentice I nukes will do that.

Supercheese
04-04-2007, 03:29 AM
Casters own, they always have, you just have to learn to play your character.  In my oppinion if you're so concerned with track, perhaps you should play a character that has it.

Valdar
04-04-2007, 05:31 AM
<cite>Bugsy-- wrote:</cite><blockquote>Apprentice I nukes will do that.</blockquote><p>Do you play a caster in T7?</p><p>If not you have no idea what you're talking about. I have all my nukes at ad3 or higher, and they resist quite a lot. So what you have is:</p><p>- Long casting times</p><p>- Unable to move while casting</p><p>- Spells that have a very high probability to get resisted if you manage to get one off.</p><p>The combination of all the factors mentioned above make for a very unviable toon in pvp.</p>

DarkRenown
04-04-2007, 06:15 AM
<p>Just throwing in my two penneth.</p><p>I am a level 70 Warlock. I have a large number of Ad 3's and a few Masters. I am kitted out ok, not great, but not too shabby. I am rubbish at PvP.</p><p>Do Casters have a problem in PvP? Well, I have seen both good and bad casters (I am the latter). I know that if casters get the drop on a player, then the classic root/nuke can be an easy winner. I also know that for Summoners, they can have a high probability of winning with a root/pet combination. Seen it done a lot. I also know that for Coercers etc, PvP is very tough, solo especially, in groups very useful though. I am a Warlock. Our specialty is Group combat, and decent DoTs.</p><p>If I get the drop on a player, then I would expect to be able to Root (we have two roots, and a stun. One will stick) I can then drop my Nukes. Not massive, but will hurt if they hit. I avoid DoTs, they will break the root. I anticipate the root breakign while I am nuking, so I teleport the target away form me (Ancient Teachings) I stun and nuke Thats how PvP should go, if I see the target. But I suck at PvP, so expect this to fail 50% of the time at least, more like 75% LOL.</p><p>I can also see invis all the time. So this is permamently on. I cannot see stealth. So if there are players using Stealth then I can be surprised.</p><p>A surprised caster is more often than not, fodder. Simply because we will be interrupted. We will be stifled, and we will die. You can mitigate this with some AA line abilities which make you uninterruptable/stiflable etc. But in reality, if someone hits you while you aren't ready, you stand a good chance of dying.</p><p>Which pretty much balances ourt the fact that, if a Caster hits someone else first, they stand a good chance of dying.</p><p>Is it fair that people can get their resists so high, if they are not casters? Umm yes. A good caster will maximise their spell line to make the spells harder to resist. Int does damage only. Get your Disruption/Subjugation gear on. If you push these up as high as possible, your spells hit a lot. Focus means you get interrupted less, so if you aniticpate being hit, then push it higher. Check your AA lines. I can spec my Warlock to be Solo friendly, and PvP friendly fairly easily. I can get 2 x 1000 point wards, which regenerate. I can push my HP up massively with STA. I can push my AGI, Block, Avoidance up higher. I can pretty much get my defensive abilities excellent specced out. 60% avoidance. At least 40% mit, then you add your bonuses in. I don't because I am specced for DPS. But if I was going to seriously play Solo PvP, then of course I would.</p><p>It's not that casters don;t last long in PvP, it's that we cannot be surprised and expect to live.</p><p>So, here is asimple solution.</p><p>Get a pair of see stealth goggles, or some Butterfly totems, and make [Removed for Content] sure, that when you move around, you keep your eyes open, and watch out for places where you can get jumped. Just like any other class that cannot see stealth or invis. </p><p>Just my two penneth</p>