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dnice74
03-24-2007, 05:31 PM
<p>Plain and simple - Vox brigands have been abusing the macros lately and/or hacking outright. </p><p>This is not a grey issue, I do not want to hear debate, I do not want a flame thread, and I am not whining. But I wanted to bring this to their attention and I know they read the boards. </p><p>My guild has probably sent in 20 petitions a week about this issue. Basically, brigands are hotkeying all of their CA's into one button and dumping them on people in under a second. There is no class, no amount of gear, nothing that can stand up to that.  </p><p>Please tell me that you are at least aware of this and I will go away. But petitions aren't working, and sadly enough, the stupid little [Removed for Content] who play this game will do everything they can to cheat. Anyway, lame-[Removed for Content] teens with no life are not the point of this thread. </p>

CresentBlade
03-24-2007, 06:47 PM
<p><img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>But everyone says its just Swashys that are overpowered<img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

Xova
03-24-2007, 07:57 PM
<cite>dnice74 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Plain and simple - <b><u>Vox brigands</u></b> have been abusing the macros lately and/or hacking outright. </p><p>This is not a grey issue, I do not want to hear debate, I do not want a flame thread, and I am not whining. But I wanted to bring this to their attention and I know they read the boards. </p><p>My guild has probably sent in 20 petitions a week about this issue. Basically, brigands are hotkeying all of their CA's into one button and dumping them on people in under a second. There is no class, no amount of gear, nothing that can stand up to that.  </p><p>Please tell me that you are at least aware of this and I will go away. But petitions aren't working, and sadly enough, the stupid little [I cannot control my vocabulary] who play this game will do everything they can to cheat. Anyway, lame-[I cannot control my vocabulary] teens with no life are not the point of this thread. </p></blockquote> Huh....that's interesting. Are these T7 brigands, perchance?

Darlion
03-24-2007, 08:02 PM
I believe the spell you're looking for is called double up...

Groma
03-24-2007, 09:04 PM
Simmah down Req, god forbit they use a CA in pee vee pee combat.

Eybietie
03-24-2007, 11:17 PM
<span style="color: #ffff00">there is pvp on vox?</span>

PsycoSWG
03-25-2007, 12:57 AM
<p>And this all of a sudden just surfaced?</p><p>I used to do this all the time. Not seeing how it's possible with cast times and recovery times <img src="/smilies/1cfd6e2a9a2c0cf8e74b49b35e2e46c7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

PorcupineTr
03-25-2007, 04:59 AM
I'm guessing thats the point, the particular macro is an exploit. Though if it is then I don't see how it stops other classes from using it, so it would be a universal exploit and an even bigger problem.

dnice74
03-25-2007, 05:21 AM
<p>Xova, if that was a serious question, than the answer is yes. If that was sarcasm, as it appears, then shut the hell up if you don't know what you are talking about. Gromann, I expected much better from you. That was a ridiculous response, especially coming from someone who should know what I'm talking about. </p><p>I'm not wrong on this and I'm not backing down, so you can all keep up the bs comments until i get a response.</p>

dnice74
03-25-2007, 08:38 AM
<cite>PorcupineTree wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm guessing thats the point, the particular macro is an exploit. Though if it is then I don't see how it stops other classes from using it, so it would be a universal exploit and an even bigger problem. </blockquote> Exactly. Quite frankly, I don't see other classes doing it, but if it has to go in pvp, oh well. You can all thank the juvenille '[Removed for Content] who feel that playing their OP class isn't enough. Utterly disgusting.

dnice74
03-25-2007, 08:59 AM
<cite>Darlion wrote:</cite><blockquote>I believe the spell you're looking for is called double up...</blockquote><p> <i>An attack that repeats the brigand's previous 2 seconds of certain combat arts on the target.</i> </p><p>First of all, we are talking about brigands dropping people with 6-7 k hit points in two seconds <i>total, there shouldn't even be two seconds' worth of attacks 'cause they all hit at once</i>. If this ability recasts CA's that hit in the last two seconds, it makes this problem even worse. I have a decent amount of fabled now, and die in a second, sec and a half tops. Why bother to do anything at all? Full Avatar/IS loot wouldn't keep me up against 10 CA's at once.</p><p>Secondly, we are talking about brigands who I can kill when they aren't doing this, then all of the sudden they turn into juggernauts who I cannot even begin to damage before I'm dead. The difference is noticeable. </p><p>Guys, there are people admitting to this issue in this thread; I'm not making it up. Ask the legions of people who have kills on me if I sit there and pout after I get ganked. What I care about is that brigands using this hack/ability/special pair of socks/whatever are killing people in an IMPOSSIBLY short amount of time. Something is seriously broken here. This is worse than assassins critting for 7500 on decap (thank you for at least turning that down some devs, but you still have some work to do). </p>

Crazysk8ter
03-25-2007, 11:07 AM
aww /hugs wreakin i sry i fly in gank u fly off dual boxing in less then 2 secs /= sadly only need 2 CA's to take ur hp

Groma
03-25-2007, 11:14 AM
Ahhh, it makes sense now, since its Wreakin posting.  I stand by my previous statement, stop sucking.

stonebo
03-25-2007, 12:26 PM
<p>hrm</p><p>a clothy going down in 2 sec to a brigand? What takes em so long?</p>

Firam
03-25-2007, 01:15 PM
sailwind + any 3 amusing brigand CA's + double up = woowoo i miss the AGI line, may be time for respec =(

Greggthegrmreapr
03-25-2007, 01:33 PM
rouge classes have always been overpowered in general

nirav21
03-25-2007, 02:37 PM
<p>Macro 1</p><p>:;usea Devitalize</p><p>:;usea Dispatch</p><p>Macro 2</p><p>:;usea Malicious assualt</p><p>:;usea Double up</p><p>5 k dmg in less than 3 secs. Doable every 1 min....</p>

dnice74
03-25-2007, 09:34 PM
<p>Oh, look who's posting. Zeebs, Cru and Gromann. How sweet. </p><p>Tell me something Zeebs, why has my inferior [Removed for Content] beaten you solo? With your gear and the fact that your class is stupid op against mine, you should be ashamed. But flame on, kiddo. </p><p>Should I bother to respond to Cru...wait a second....hmmm...thinking....nah. </p><p>Gromann - yeah, I'm horrible. Funny how I've beaten more than a few of your crew solo; especially where 90% of them have much better gear. But ok, I must suck. Having read some of your threads, I gave you credit for more brains than this. I actually like many of your guildies, but there's always a few in every bunch, huh? I eagerly await your next "pwned, n00b!" style insult. Please let me get my crying towel first, however. </p><p>Nirav - thank you for being constructive. But that doesn't account for what I'm talking about here; like I said, this isn't a sob-fest as to why I can't beat brigands. I've actually resigned myself to the fact that they are OP, because Sony obviously isn't going to do anything about it. I'm talking about brigs doing 9k plus in under a second to plate tanks, not just my paper-tissue-armor-[Removed for Content]. </p><p>Edit: furthermore, let's say I'm wrong and that this is all a legit macro - then it is still ridiculously op in pvp and needs to be addressed. Despite what the clowns here are saying, my gear isn't the issue - there is no gear anyone could get that would allow them to counter this crap. I care not whether I'm right or wrong, I care about the solution. </p><p>/eats popcorn and waits</p>

Firam
03-25-2007, 11:33 PM
<cite>dnice74 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I've actually resigned myself to the fact that they are OP, because Sony obviously isn't going to do anything about it. I'm talking about brigs doing 9k plus in under a second to plate tanks, not just my paper-tissue-armor-[Removed for Content]. </p></blockquote> I edited out most of your sob story personal vendetta whining.  Which leaves us with the point you were trying to make... ...which in itself is so heavily biased and incorrect that you really discount any kind of credibility you may have started with.  Look at the changes made to brigand CA's over the last 9 months or so, "Sony obviously isn't going to do anything about it"?  Sure, yeah, whatever. And there is no way in hell that a brig dropped 9k in less than a second (or "instantly" as you previously put it) to a plate tank that was... well..  actually wearing plate armor.  In fact, that wouldn't happen even in the ~3 seconds it takes to go through the whole double up combos with sailwind.  Dispatch is no longer the mitigation crippler it used to be in PvP, it was <i>heavily</i> nerfed in that regard.  It'll now cut away about a quarter of the mitigation of a brawny plate tank.  Maybe a bit more, maybe a bit less, depends on the buffs and gear level.  Even with a lucky crit streak, my CA's dont do the kind of damage you're talking about to plate tanks, most of it is still mitigated away.  Sure, I can tear through a mage in seconds if I get next to it... there's a ton of classes that can do that, that's what having essentially 0 mitigation does for you as a class... surprise!  (I hope there aren't any mages out there who have any illusions about their ability to take physical hits... please tell me no one is that confused?) However, I've just given you the benefit of the doubt on pretty much every variable here.  A brig with sailwind.  Probably fully mastered.  Lucky crit streak (we only get 15% innate crits with AA's maxed).  That's 3 CA's + 3 doubled up CA's, and they had to be behind you for the dispatch+devitalize, possibly without stun/root first. Lets be realistic, since you're making sweeping generalizations:  Ask a brigand to click the PVP tab on their CA's and read off the average damage (min+max/2) for dispatch+devitalize+assault, then multiply that by 2 for the double up, then add 5% for average crit damage increase, then take away about 35-40% of that final number due to post-debuff plate mitigation.  Add in 300 for a poison proc somewhere in there. Now tell me what number you come up with? Oh, it's not anywhere near 9k?  Ahh.... Now realize that the majority of brigands (as in >50%, to define that specifically for you) don't have the AGI line and thus no sailwind and thus can only double up 2 CA's. I really don't know what your major malfunction is.  I don't play on Vox so I've never fought you personally, but it sounds like there's a lot of negative sentiment here towards you.  You mention that you're a clothie.  Did you perhaps go semi afk, perhaps sitting there near the monitor eating a sandwich, maybe putting on a sweatshirt or something, and a brigand caught you on track, came up, and dropped you in a few seconds before you could scramble back to the keyboard?  Is that why this cry-fest started?

Ibunubi
03-25-2007, 11:42 PM
Seriously though, it is the skill Double Up + AA Sailwind. It is a guaranteed 3 combat arts by the time you hit Double Up. That there, for example, a brigand can hit Restrain (root), Dispatch, Devitalize, Malicious Assault, Double Up-- That will repeat Dispatch, Devitalize, and Malicious Assault instantly ... all three in an instant. If the brigand has his relic bp, he can have an extra ~700 guaranteed damage. If he has EoF PvP BP, he has a guaranteed ~1600 damage.

dnice74
03-26-2007, 12:07 AM
<cite>Firamas wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>dnice74 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I've actually resigned myself to the fact that they are OP, because Sony obviously isn't going to do anything about it. I'm talking about brigs doing 9k plus in under a second to plate tanks, not just my paper-tissue-armor-[Removed for Content]. </p></blockquote> I edited out most of your sob story personal vendetta whining.  Which leaves us with the point you were trying to make... ...which in itself is so heavily biased and incorrect that you really discount any kind of credibility you may have started with.  Look at the changes made to brigand CA's over the last 9 months or so, "Sony obviously isn't going to do anything about it"?  Sure, yeah, whatever. And there is no way in hell that a brig dropped 9k in less than a second (or "instantly" as you previously put it) to a plate tank that was... well..  actually wearing plate armor.  In fact, that wouldn't happen even in the ~3 seconds it takes to go through the whole double up combos with sailwind.  Dispatch is no longer the mitigation crippler it used to be in PvP, it was <i>heavily</i> nerfed in that regard.  It'll now cut away about a quarter of the mitigation of a brawny plate tank.  Maybe a bit more, maybe a bit less, depends on the buffs and gear level.  Even with a lucky crit streak, my CA's dont do the kind of damage you're talking about to plate tanks, most of it is still mitigated away.  Sure, I can tear through a mage in seconds if I get next to it... there's a ton of classes that can do that, that's what having essentially 0 mitigation does for you as a class... surprise!  (I hope there aren't any mages out there who have any illusions about their ability to take physical hits... please tell me no one is that confused?) However, I've just given you the benefit of the doubt on pretty much every variable here.  A brig with sailwind.  Probably fully mastered.  Lucky crit streak (we only get 15% innate crits with AA's maxed).  That's 3 CA's + 3 doubled up CA's, and they had to be behind you for the dispatch+devitalize, possibly without stun/root first. Lets be realistic, since you're making sweeping generalizations:  Ask a brigand to click the PVP tab on their CA's and read off the average damage (min+max/2) for dispatch+devitalize+assault, then multiply that by 2 for the double up, then add 5% for average crit damage increase, then take away about 35-40% of that final number due to post-debuff plate mitigation.  Add in 300 for a poison proc somewhere in there. Now tell me what number you come up with? Oh, it's not anywhere near 9k?  Ahh.... Now realize that the majority of brigands (as in >50%, to define that specifically for you) don't have the AGI line and thus no sailwind and thus can only double up 2 CA's. I really don't know what your major malfunction is.  I don't play on Vox so I've never fought you personally, but it sounds like there's a lot of negative sentiment here towards you.  You mention that you're a clothie.  Did you perhaps go semi afk, perhaps sitting there near the monitor eating a sandwich, maybe putting on a sweatshirt or something, and a brigand caught you on track, came up, and dropped you in a few seconds before you could scramble back to the keyboard?  Is that why this cry-fest started? </blockquote><p> Wow, you have overtaken the people I pvp against as the most useless poster in this thread (so far). Fascinating. Then again, I anticipated all of the brigands coming out to defend their class anyway. I know what happened, I know who does this, I'm not making this up. You aren't here, you don't know how well I play, and I doubt you took the time to look up my gear before your ludicrous post. All of your childish insults are quite comical, and I thank you for the laugh - but it doesn't change what is happening here. Keep up with the insults, though. It tickles.</p><p>Ib, like I have said 3-4 times now. It is faster than that, and people are admitting to it in this thread. Other brigands have admitted as much. For the 3rd time, however - I could care less if I'm right or wrong. Again - if there is no foul play here, then this needs to be fixed. If there is, then these punks need to be banned. Either way, this is wrong. </p>

Firam
03-26-2007, 12:44 AM
It's sailwind... 25% redux in cast and reuse (not cooldown) time -- i.e. chaining arts faster.  Plus double up.  Double up is instant cast.  All CA's are 0.5 seconds cast and reuse (redux to 0.375 after sailwind).  Thus 0.75 seconds per art.  Thus, 6 arts in 2 seconds.  That's close to being enough (or with lucky RNG rolls, enough) to kill a mage who got jumped and isn't warded in some manner.  That's what you're seeing.  And it's probably pretty traumatic in itself, sure. There is no bug where they're dropping dozens of CA's on you instantly.  I'd like to see combat logs with timestamps to prove your claims, bud.

Firam
03-26-2007, 12:49 AM
<cite>Ibunubi wrote:</cite><blockquote>Seriously though, it is the skill Double Up + AA Sailwind. It is a guaranteed 3 combat arts by the time you hit Double Up. That there, for example, a brigand can hit Restrain (root), Dispatch, Devitalize, Malicious Assault, Double Up-- That will repeat Dispatch, Devitalize, and Malicious Assault instantly ... all three in an instant. If the brigand has his relic bp, he can have an extra ~700 guaranteed damage. If he has EoF PvP BP, he has a guaranteed ~1600 damage.</blockquote> The PVP BP adds +360 to assault.  That's <i>PVE</i> damage, there's a significant redux when used in PVP.  And that also doesn't account for physical mitigation.  I don't do anywhere near my listed PVP damage unless it's against a clothie who's been fully debuffed.  Any melee class can tell you this. It's nowhere near a "guaranteed +1600" unless you're referring to a dispatched PVE mob. =)

dnice74
03-26-2007, 02:13 AM
<cite>Firamas wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's sailwind... 25% redux in cast and reuse (not cooldown) time -- i.e. chaining arts faster.  Plus double up.  Double up is instant cast.  All CA's are 0.5 seconds cast and reuse (redux to 0.375 after sailwind).  Thus 0.75 seconds per art.  Thus, 6 arts in 2 seconds.  That's close to being enough (or with lucky RNG rolls, enough) to kill a mage who got jumped and isn't warded in some manner.  That's what you're seeing.  And it's probably pretty traumatic in itself, sure. There is no bug where they're dropping dozens of CA's on you instantly.  I'd like to see combat logs with timestamps to prove your claims, bud. </blockquote><p> Much better. Thank you for not acting like a 12-year old. </p><p>I can't get away from what is happening here. This isn't just a nifty macro or AA line. There are certain brigs I can kill - who have at least similar gear to the ones who kill me in 2 seconds - with a much higher success rate. There have been times I've beaten the uber-brigs (obviously the ratio is highly slanted in their favor, but it does happen). Fight is about 15 seconds, and usually close. When they are using whatever this is....macro, hack, bag of enchanted Cheetos, whatever - I die in < 2 seconds. Literally. Why is it I can stand up against the best of the best one day, and then they kill me as if I'm level 45 the next? They all just magically stumbled across this AA/macro combo? BS.</p><p>Furthermore, the math doesn't add up. <u>I'm talking about a second or two, tops, for EVERYTHING. Even with all the abilties you describe, it doesn't account for what is happening here.</u>  </p><p>I can think of one brigand who hit 70 lately that I could easily kill 3-4 times in a row a few weeks ago, even at 70. One day, I stumble across him and attack. Untouchable. 2 seconds, fight is over. This happened in the space of a week or two. You mean to tell me that a week's time got him a full set of pvp gear and (maybe) 20-40 AA's? To add more credence to what I am saying here - petitioned him for this magical macro and haven't seen this kid on for over a week now. <i>Gee, I wonder why?</i> </p><p>Maybe this doesn't happen on Naggy, but you may want to consider the fact that I'm telling the truth here, and this isn't some "omg brigs sux nerf nerf nerf" rant. I've killed plenty of brigands, thanks. Yes, they are OP, but most of them are quite killable. However, believe it or not, there ARE people who cheat or exploit the system. </p>

Firam
03-26-2007, 02:36 AM
<cite>dnice74 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p> Much better. Thank you for not acting like a 12-year old. </p></blockquote>I'm confused here.  I always (try to) approach my posts with maturity and intellect.  I'm not sure how in the space of 3 posts in a thread I went from a "12 year old" to someone with a valid point.  All I did was rephrase/condense what I was saying, and added some extra math to it. dnice74 wrote: <blockquote>I can't get away from what is happening here. This isn't just a nifty macro or AA line. There are certain brigs I can kill - who have at least similar gear to the ones who kill me in 2 seconds - with a much higher success rate. There have been times I've beaten the uber-brigs (obviously the ratio is highly slanted in their favor, but it does happen). Fight is about 15 seconds, and usually close. When they are using whatever this is....macro, hack, bag of enchanted Cheetos, whatever - I die in < 2 seconds. Literally. Why is it I can stand up against the best of the best one day, and then they kill me as if I'm level 45 the next? They all just magically stumbled across this AA/macro combo? BS.<p>Furthermore, the math doesn't add up. <u>I'm talking about a second or two, tops, for EVERYTHING. Even with all the abilties you describe, it doesn't account for what is happening here.</u>  </p></blockquote> Gear doesn't matter much here.  The vast majority of T7 chars have at least MC and AD3's, with some M1's sprinkled in there.  AD3's are enough to get the job done; M1 is just a 15% increase in damage over that.  Not necessarily needed.  You say you've had 15 second fights with brigs... that's about what it amounts to if the brig can't get off the initial lock on someone and the snare/root takes hold.  You'll either get out of the CC effects and finish the job, or the mage is going to keep you at bay and it's going to be painful.  That applies to any tier of this game. The "2 second death" you're seeing is the Double Up.  It has to be.  I'm speaking from experience here man, I do it all the time.  I don't have sailwind either.  The inconsistency you're seeing is the fact that it's not always easy to hold a player in a lock and get your positional attacks (phys miti debuffs in this case) off in the heat of battle.  There are a lot of different factors that can prevent a brigand (or any class) from getting backstabs off when needed... I'm not sure what class you play but think about what you're doing that's disrupting them from getting up in your face and staying directly behind you.  Play into that. dnice74 wrote: <blockquote><p>I can think of one brigand who hit 70 lately that I could easily kill 3-4 times in a row a few weeks ago, even at 70. One day, I stumble across him and attack. Untouchable. 2 seconds, fight is over. This happened in the space of a week or two. You mean to tell me that a week's time got him a full set of pvp gear and (maybe) 20-40 AA's? To add more credence to what I am saying here - petitioned him for this magical macro and haven't seen this kid on for over a week now. <i>Gee, I wonder why?</i> </p><p>Maybe this doesn't happen on Naggy, but you may want to consider the fact that I'm telling the truth here, and this isn't some "omg brigs sux nerf nerf nerf" rant. I've killed plenty of brigands, thanks. Yes, they are OP, but most of them are quite killable. However, believe it or not, there ARE people who cheat or exploit the system. </p></blockquote> I'm willing to bet that specific brigand learned how to fine tune his CA order and is doing something differently.  Just like swashies, brigands can be nasty if you let them unleash a flurry of quick damage on you.  That's the nature of the class.  That's all they have though.  If they haven't won after that flurry of CA something unfortunate is probably going to happen to them.  Perhaps you need a healer to help you, or a tank to taunt lock them.  (This is a group based game, btw.)  You're simply upset that the Rogue vs Mage rock-paper-scissors doesn't fall in your favor.  Hrmm.... I'm sorry?  I don't know what else to say. And again, please check your combat logs and feel free to post sections of them here.  I would love to see if they match up to the combat scroll I see all the time.  They probably do.

Ibunubi
03-26-2007, 02:38 AM
<cite>dnice74 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Wow, you have overtaken the people I pvp against as the most useless poster in this thread (so far). Fascinating. Then again, I anticipated all of the brigands coming out to defend their class anyway. I know what happened, I know who does this, I'm not making this up. You aren't here, you don't know how well I play, and I doubt you took the time to look up my gear before your ludicrous post. All of your childish insults are quite comical, and I thank you for the laugh - but it doesn't change what is happening here. Keep up with the insults, though. It tickles.</p><p>Ib, like I have said 3-4 times now. It is faster than that, and people are admitting to it in this thread. Other brigands have admitted as much. For the 3rd time, however - I could care less if I'm right or wrong. Again - if there is no foul play here, then this needs to be fixed. If there is, then these punks need to be banned. Either way, this is wrong.</p></blockquote><p>Admit to what? All I've seen people say is Double Up and Sailwind.</p><p>I was under the impression the brigand bp's give +160 and +360 to each hit ... so that's +160 / 360 twice. So from the PvP BP you would get +360x2 ... +720, then double up to +1440.</p>

Ibunubi
03-26-2007, 02:46 AM
<cite>dnice74 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Firamas wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's sailwind... 25% redux in cast and reuse (not cooldown) time -- i.e. chaining arts faster.  Plus double up.  Double up is instant cast.  All CA's are 0.5 seconds cast and reuse (redux to 0.375 after sailwind).  Thus 0.75 seconds per art.  Thus, 6 arts in 2 seconds.  That's close to being enough (or with lucky RNG rolls, enough) to kill a mage who got jumped and isn't warded in some manner.  That's what you're seeing.  And it's probably pretty traumatic in itself, sure. There is no bug where they're dropping dozens of CA's on you instantly.  I'd like to see combat logs with timestamps to prove your claims, bud. </blockquote><p> Much better. Thank you for not acting like a 12-year old. </p><p>I can't get away from what is happening here. This isn't just a nifty macro or AA line. There are certain brigs I can kill - who have at least similar gear to the ones who kill me in 2 seconds - with a much higher success rate. There have been times I've beaten the uber-brigs (obviously the ratio is highly slanted in their favor, but it does happen). Fight is about 15 seconds, and usually close. When they are using whatever this is....macro, hack, bag of enchanted Cheetos, whatever - I die in < 2 seconds. Literally. Why is it I can stand up against the best of the best one day, and then they kill me as if I'm level 45 the next? They all just magically stumbled across this AA/macro combo? BS.</p><p>Furthermore, the math doesn't add up. <u>I'm talking about a second or two, tops, for EVERYTHING. Even with all the abilties you describe, it doesn't account for what is happening here.</u>  </p><p>I can think of one brigand who hit 70 lately that I could easily kill 3-4 times in a row a few weeks ago, even at 70. One day, I stumble across him and attack. Untouchable. 2 seconds, fight is over. This happened in the space of a week or two. You mean to tell me that a week's time got him a full set of pvp gear and (maybe) 20-40 AA's? To add more credence to what I am saying here - petitioned him for this magical macro and haven't seen this kid on for over a week now. <i>Gee, I wonder why?</i> </p><p>Maybe this doesn't happen on Naggy, but you may want to consider the fact that I'm telling the truth here, and this isn't some "omg brigs sux nerf nerf nerf" rant. I've killed plenty of brigands, thanks. Yes, they are OP, but most of them are quite killable. However, believe it or not, there ARE people who cheat or exploit the system. </p></blockquote><p>We're not saying you posted a nerf rant. We're giving you what we think is happening to you. We can only say so much with the very little information you supplied. So we said it is from KoS AA's (which brigands would max first because Brigand EoF are not as useful) and Double Up. You keep saying 2 seconds max... Voila--Double Up repeats casted combat arts in the last 2 seconds.</p><p>And yeah, honestly, a lot of brigands would "stumble" upon this AA spec. Most go with Wisdom anyway. A lot go with Strength for the melee crit and added avoidance. With Agility line, they get faster casting, a nasty backstab proc, another force-face root, and a minor in-combat runspeed.</p>

Groma
03-26-2007, 03:01 AM
There is no point sitting here to argue with you. You found the pvp boards, cried that "certain brigands" were exploiting to kill you in 2 seconds, because you didn't bother to research their abilities to find out that what they are doing is 100% legit.  Did you expect a shoulder to cry on here or what?  You got [Removed for Content], and came to the forums to cry about it.  So you managed to kill a few of "my crew" well let me call the girl scouts and have a box of cookies sent right over, try not to eat them in 2 seconds or the girl scouts are gonna post about it.  Bottom line, you wear cloth and run around solo looking for pvp.  Come to terms with the fact that certain classes, when played properly, are going to beat you every single fight, and don't clutter the boards with yet another cry to stop exploiters who did absolutely nothing wrong.

Firam
03-26-2007, 04:07 AM
<cite>Gromann wrote:</cite><blockquote>well let me call the girl scouts and have a box of cookies sent right over, try not to eat them in 2 seconds or the girl scouts are gonna post about it </blockquote>rofl, quote of the thread =)

Sinistria
03-26-2007, 04:32 AM
may i change from wizzi to swashi if /movelog will ever go alive? <img src="/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Eybietie
03-26-2007, 06:13 AM
<span style="color: #ffff00">no sinistria ^^ - btw double up is even bugged atm. it will do the CA u did before on adept1 base. btw you seriously bother about that macro? [Removed for Content]. </span>

Xova
03-26-2007, 07:13 AM
<cite>dnice74 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Xova, if that was a serious question, than the answer is yes. If that was sarcasm, as it appears, then shut the hell up if you don't know what you are talking about. Gromann, I expected much better from you. That was a ridiculous response, especially coming from someone who should know what I'm talking about. </p><p>I'm not wrong on this and I'm not backing down, so you can all keep up the bs comments until i get a response.</p></blockquote><p>It was a serious question, and I'll be looking forward to your apology for being unnecessarily rude.</p><p>I was just curious what tier the problem was in to perhaps shed more light on the issue. I know Double-up is a favorite attack to use in the first few seconds of a fight, and on my recently exiled raid-geared defiler I have a really tough time withstanding that along with Debilitate, Dispatch, etc. And as others have mentioned the Sailwind AA may be a factor as well. And I wouldn't be surprised if they are using macros to hotkey their attacks together for faster killing.</p><p>Combat logs or other information might be useful in determining if it is legit as others have suggested or if it is more as you appear to believe. if you don't know how to save them, next time you log in type /log and then go find one of the brigands you are concerned about. Then please post the results of your combat log here for others to peruse.</p>

Bozidar
03-26-2007, 11:13 AM
<p>dnice.. seriously,</p><p>Drop in the combat log.  If you're not sure how to do it, type /log at the command prompt.  It'll log all of your chat and combat to (if you've used the default install):</p><p>c:program filessonyeqIIlogsvoxtoonname.txt</p><p>Then when this "exploit" happens, feel free to log it, and show it to us.  Cut and Paste, ftw.</p><p>until then, the proper way to get the attention of a GM is to do a petition..not slandering our server and making it look bad in so many ways.</p>

Bozidar
03-26-2007, 11:14 AM
<cite>Gromann wrote:</cite><blockquote>well let me call the girl scouts and have a box of cookies sent right over, try not to eat them in 2 seconds or the girl scouts are gonna post about it.  </blockquote><p> [Removed for Content], that was brilliant.. well done sir.  /bow</p>

Dak
03-26-2007, 11:35 AM
Any half [Removed for Content] 12 year old kid could roll a brigand and macro somebody.  They will probably be the worst brigand EQ2 has seen, though.  Macros are terrible for PvP, seeing as how every situation is different and the same combo everytime will definitely not suit every encounter.  I'll make this short and simple: Macros suck.  If you use macros in PvP, you suck.  Mashing CA's by either clicking or keystrokes is 10x better than any macro, if you do it right.

Darlion
03-26-2007, 06:41 PM
Just some advice... post a screenshot of the log, or a video if you want many serious responses. A brigand can and will be able to hit 6 CAs in 2 seconds. No exploit used, just using their arts.

Lazyfr
03-26-2007, 09:03 PM
<p>Hey Guys,</p><p>   Interesting reading the mud slinging and such. This post was actually fueled after a night of PVP last week. One of the initial fights that got the guel started was myself(70 Swashy), geared with 6 out of 7 PVP armor pieces and legendary/fabled weapons and jewelry, and one of our furies, also raid geared. We were fighting one solo brigand. This brigand stuck around, I was very surprised, as he started to become unimmune. As his counter went down, I hit all my buffs, en garde, perfect finnesse, the other DPS mod, and inspiration. The fury did nothing but heal and buff me. The brigand and I basically went toe to toe, with the fury healing me. In raids, I parse high 1700 DPS with no dirge. In this fight, he managed to out DPS me by enough to negate the fact I had a fury doing nothing but healing. I've read the brigand boards. I know how to play my class. I don't see how this was possible within the limits of the game. His reply it was sailwind. I've used it... Doesn't double your DPS magically.</p><p>   He made a Q toon to gloat. Said "you're still hitting the mouse buttons..." "I made macros, I hit a couple buttons and all my spells go off." I tried stringing together macros to see if this would actually decrease casting time or something... Legal Macros don't actually help that much. All in all, that is where this thread originated. That night, this brigand was able to take down full groups single handidly... and not a bunch of noob groups...</p><p>   I guess, in the end, after doing the research, yeah, brigands can do a lot of damage. They are a lot of fun to duel when four of their friends aren't flying in on the cloud platform behind em. But there is at least one on the Vox server that is able to out DPS any other Brig on the server by a lot. Don't care how good you are, or how good your gear is at this stage in the game... Unless you're ganking a group, you shouldn't be able to take out a whole, well geared, group, by yourself...</p><p>Guess That's It... If anyone wants to call me a noob, or make fun of the fact I don't have some Uber title, come find me solo, since you know I'm almost always solo and most of you are in groups 100% of the time. I've just enjoyed soloing for a while and racking up on the tokens : )</p><p>Take care guys,</p><p>Lazyfrog</p>

Lazyfr
03-26-2007, 09:20 PM
<p>Also, </p><p>   Excellant idea on the screenshots of the Combat Arts. Did not think of it that night, cause I was so dumbfounded by the conversation I was having with this guy's Q toon(have screenshots of the conversation...) I guess you'd have to get timestamps on the logs as well ; )...</p><p>Take care guys,</p><p>Lazyfrog</p>

Darlion
03-26-2007, 09:38 PM
<cite>Lazyfrog wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Also, </p><p>   Excellant idea on the screenshots of the Combat Arts. Did not think of it that night, cause I was so dumbfounded by the conversation I was having with this guy's Q toon(have screenshots of the conversation...) I guess you'd have to get timestamps on the logs as well ; )...</p><p>Take care guys,</p><p>Lazyfrog</p></blockquote> Don't have to get timestamps, it's usually pretty easy to judge time by your attacks against his + auto attacks in between.

Ibunubi
03-26-2007, 09:48 PM
<cite>Lazyfrog wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Also, </p><p>   Excellant idea on the screenshots of the Combat Arts. Did not think of it that night, cause I was so dumbfounded by the conversation I was having with this guy's Q toon(have screenshots of the conversation...) I guess you'd have to get timestamps on the logs as well ; )...</p><p>Take care guys,</p><p>Lazyfrog</p></blockquote>Lol, I have timestamps anyway just because they're pretty handy. But Sailwind can significantly increase the brigand's burst dps just for a guaranteed "Triple Up." More than 1 attack in a macro is too slow in general for the quick PvP gank. If he said he uses macroes, then I can only imagine him putting a couple of his attacks together in a single button, like Dispatch and Devitalize in the same key and just repeatedly clicking the button. I say "repeatedly" just because clicking it once and waiting for the Queue is slow, plus the fact that you have only one button to press rather than 3 different ones.

dnice74
03-26-2007, 11:58 PM
<cite>Firamas wrote:</cite><blockquote>dnice74 wrote: <p>I'm confused here.  I always (try to) approach my posts with maturity and intellect.  I'm not sure how in the space of 3 posts in a thread I went from a "12 year old" to someone with a valid point.  All I did was rephrase/condense what I was saying, and added some extra math to it. </p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Not your first post, but I don't feel like debating it so we can let it go. </span> </p><p>Gear doesn't matter much here.  The vast majority of T7 chars have at least MC and AD3's, with some M1's sprinkled in there.  AD3's are enough to get the job done; M1 is just a 15% increase in damage over that.  Not necessarily needed.  You say you've had 15 second fights with brigs... that's about what it amounts to if the brig can't get off the initial lock on someone and the snare/root takes hold.  You'll either get out of the CC effects and finish the job, or the mage is going to keep you at bay and it's going to be painful.  That applies to any tier of this game. The "2 second death" you're seeing is the Double Up.  It has to be.  I'm speaking from experience here man, I do it all the time.  I don't have sailwind either.  The inconsistency you're seeing is the fact that it's not always easy to hold a player in a lock and get your positional attacks (phys miti debuffs in this case) off in the heat of battle.  There are a lot of different factors that can prevent a brigand (or any class) from getting backstabs off when needed... I'm not sure what class you play but think about what you're doing that's disrupting them from getting up in your face and staying directly behind you.  Play into that.</p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">I know all this. However, I will get combat logs for the next time this happens. </span> dnice74 wrote: </p><p> I'm willing to bet that specific brigand learned how to fine tune his CA order and is doing something differently.  Just like swashies, brigands can be nasty if you let them unleash a flurry of quick damage on you.  That's the nature of the class.  That's all they have though.  If they haven't won after that flurry of CA something unfortunate is probably going to happen to them.  Perhaps you need a healer to help you, or a tank to taunt lock them.  (This is a group based game, btw.)  You're simply upset that the Rogue vs Mage rock-paper-scissors doesn't fall in your favor.  Hrmm.... I'm sorry?  I don't know what else to say.</p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">With all due respect - this paragraph is full of trite advice and assumptions. It might prove useful to a level 64 player, but it's not going to help me. And again, for what seems like the 50th time now: if I'm wrong, which I don't think I am, then there needs to be some serious rebalancing here. </span> And again, please check your combat logs and feel free to post sections of them here.  I would love to see if they match up to the combat scroll I see all the time.  They probably do.</p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">I have no problem admitting when I'm wrong. Then we can just shift this to a "why are brigands so horribly op" thread. It would help if I had logs, and I will get some (hopefully the GM's already gathered them from the petitions I sent in). But you are still assuming that you are correct and there is no foul play here. I don't agree, and we shall have to remain stalemated for now.  </span> </p></blockquote><p><strike>There is no point sitting here to argue with you. You found the pvp boards, cried that "certain brigands" were exploiting to kill you in 2 seconds, because you didn't bother to research their abilities to find out that what they are doing is 100% legit.  Did you expect a </strike><u>I'm mad that my parents "forgot" me in front of the orphanage one day, so I will start a flame war for no reason.</u><strike> or what?  You got [I cannot control my vocabulary], and came to the forums to cry about it.  So you managed to kill a few of "my crew" well let me call the girl scouts and have a box of cookies sent right over, try not to eat them in 2 seconds or the girl scouts are gonna post about it.  Bottom line, you wear cloth and run around solo looking for pvp.  Come to terms with the fact that certain classes, when played properly, are going to beat you every single fight, and don't clutter the boards with yet another cry to stop exploiters who did absolutely nothing wrong. </strike> Oh dear. I have upset Bromun for some reason. I'm terribly sorry, chap. I could dissect your points easily as pie, but a. it will [Removed for Content] you off more if I don't b. this isn't the "let's start a flame war with wreakinn" thread. Go back to farming aviaks. Wait, Gromann? My bad. I can never tell the difference. Thanks for proving me right on the "pwned noobzor" type slams, however. Tres funny. </p>

dnice74
03-27-2007, 12:06 AM
<cite>Xova wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>dnice74 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Xova, if that was a serious question, than the answer is yes. If that was sarcasm, as it appears, then shut the hell up if you don't know what you are talking about. Gromann, I expected much better from you. That was a ridiculous response, especially coming from someone who should know what I'm talking about. </p><p>I'm not wrong on this and I'm not backing down, so you can all keep up the bs comments until i get a response.</p></blockquote><p>It was a serious question, and I'll be looking forward to your apology for being unnecessarily rude.</p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Sorry, one isn't coming. If you stop reading after yes, as you should have, then you should have no reason to be offended. </span></p><p>I was just curious what tier the problem was in to perhaps shed more light on the issue. I know Double-up is a favorite attack to use in the first few seconds of a fight, and on my recently exiled raid-geared defiler I have a really tough time withstanding that along with Debilitate, Dispatch, etc. And as others have mentioned the Sailwind AA may be a factor as well. And I wouldn't be surprised if they are using macros to hotkey their attacks together for faster killing.</p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">T7</span></p><p>Combat logs or other information might be useful in determining if it is legit as others have suggested or if it is more as you appear to believe. if you don't know how to save them, next time you log in type /log and then go find one of the brigands you are concerned about. Then please post the results of your combat log here for others to peruse.</p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">You are all correct. I will get one soon, I highly doubt it will be long. </span></p></blockquote> <p>dnice.. seriously,</p><p>Drop in the combat log.  If you're not sure how to do it, type /log at the command prompt.  It'll log all of your chat and combat to (if you've used the default install):</p><p>c:program filessonyeqIIlogsvoxtoonname.txt</p><p>Then when this "exploit" happens, feel free to log it, and show it to us.  Cut and Paste, ftw.</p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Awesome. Thanks. That was very helpful.....</span></p><p>until then, the proper way to get the attention of a GM is to do a petition..not slandering our server and making it look bad in so many ways.</p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">.....and this is the garbage I have seen from you in other threads. Don't start. Please. </span></p>

dnice74
03-27-2007, 12:12 AM
<p>Devs - I know you read these. Any comments? Anything at all? </p><p>This is either a macro exploit or yet another scout issue that needs to be looked at. You finally nerfed decap(my hat is off to you), so I know you are paying attention. One line of "we are investigating balance issues further" or "send us combat logs you noob" would suffice. Save me from the peanut gallery. I don't create threads like this because I'm bored or whiny or need attention - I create them when there is a serious problem. One way or another, there is one here. </p>

Firam
03-27-2007, 12:33 AM
<cite>dnice74 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Devs - I know you read these. Any comments? Anything at all? </p><p>This is either a macro exploit or yet another scout issue that needs to be looked at. You finally nerfed decap(my hat is off to you), so I know you are paying attention. One line of "we are investigating balance issues further" or "send us combat logs you noob" would suffice. Save me from the peanut gallery. I don't create threads like this because I'm bored or whiny or need attention - I create them when there is a serious problem. One way or another, there is one here. </p></blockquote> 1. Devs, in accordance with SOE policy, do not respond to direct questions in the forums.  Except in <i>very</i> rare occasions.  Your misguided tantrum about brigands probably doesn't qualify, bud. 2. Almost every single person here keeps saying it: POST COMBAT LOGS.  HERE.  NOT IN A PM TO A DEV.  How about you let us take a look at them?  We won't call you a tool if our assumptions are correct, we'll just nod and say "yep, thats what brigands do."  If you really do have dozens of CA's being dumped on you in <2 seconds then there is a bug/exploit issue, and that's a perfect place to out it.  Why keep it secret and still claim it's there?  Are you afraid this entire thing will be discovered to be your little personal whine fest about getting (legitimately) owned by a certain class? I'm losing more respect for you the longer you go without posting any actual evidence of your outrageous claims.

dnice74
03-27-2007, 12:53 AM
<cite>Firamas wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>dnice74 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Devs - I know you read these. Any comments? Anything at all? </p><p>This is either a macro exploit or yet another scout issue that needs to be looked at. You finally nerfed decap(my hat is off to you), so I know you are paying attention. One line of "we are investigating balance issues further" or "send us combat logs you noob" would suffice. Save me from the peanut gallery. I don't create threads like this because I'm bored or whiny or need attention - I create them when there is a serious problem. One way or another, there is one here. </p></blockquote><p> 1. Devs, in accordance with SOE policy, do not respond to direct questions in the forums.  Except in <i>very</i> rare occasions.  Your misguided tantrum about brigands probably doesn't qualify, bud.</p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Sooooooooooo......they don't, but they do. Fine, I might not get a response in this thread....or maybe I will. Errrr...ok. Anyway, petitions weren't working, so I thought I'd try another avenue. By the way, your ludicrous assumptions and insulting tone(some shining examples below) are funny. Maturity and intellect all the way! My "misguided tantrum"? I have almost 1k deaths and I like rolling solo, which is often a deathwish. If you really think I care about dying, you are delusional. What I care about are cheaters and/or imbalances versus classes. </span> 2. Almost every single person here keeps saying it: POST COMBAT LOGS.  HERE.  NOT IN A PM TO A DEV.  How about you let us take a look at them?  We won't call you a tool if our assumptions are correct, we'll just nod and say "yep, thats what brigands do."  If you really do have dozens of CA's being dumped on you in <2 seconds then there is a bug/exploit issue, and that's a perfect place to out it.  Why keep it secret and still claim it's there?  Are you afraid this entire thing will be discovered to be your little personal whine fest about getting (legitimately) owned by a certain class?</p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Hi. Speak the English? In big, pretty bold letters: I SAID I WOULD WHEN I GET THEM NEXT TIME. I HAVE NO INTEREST IN KEEPING THINGS SECRET, AND I HAVE NO AGENDA AGAINST YOUR SPECIAL LITTLE CLASS. In fact, I want a combat log, because even if it proves there is no hack, it will prove that your class is still retardedly op(at least against casters, and spare me the r-p-s bs cause I'm not going to listen). You should PRAY this is only a hack. Finally: this isn't just me. Did you read Lazyfrog's post? I doubt it. Did you see the part where I said they were doing this to plate tanks? </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Relax, go play your toon, sip some koolaid, whatever. If you have such a problem with what I am saying, I would bet a substantial amount of money no one is forcing you to post in this thread. </span> I'm losing more respect for you the longer you go without posting any actual evidence of your outrageous claims.</p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Come to my level so that at least we are on the same page; I have absolutely no respect for you. But it's alright, if you keep up the mantra of "he's a whiner! don't listen to him! please don't nerf us again! nooooooo!" then maybe you'll sleep better tonight.   </span></p></blockquote>

Firam
03-27-2007, 02:20 AM
<cite>dnice74 wrote:</cite><blockquote> <p><span style="color: #00cc00">In fact, I want a combat log, because even if it proves there is no hack, it will prove that your class is still retardedly op(at least against casters, and spare me the r-p-s bs cause I'm not going to listen). You should PRAY this is only a hack.</span></p> </blockquote> I'm not going to "spare you the r-p-s".  Not now; not ever.  It's deeply ingrained as part of the PvP mechanics in this, and basically every, game.  Every class/archetype has (or should have) its "foil".  If not, the precious balance you speak of drains away in a whirlpool of FotM ugliness.  Rogues have <i>always</i> been good at taking down clothies.  It's what they do.  It doesn't make them "retardedly overpowered".  I don't claim that shaman or clerics are OP because they can easily heal themselves through all my DPS while still (if battle specced, or correctly geared) putting out respectable DPS back towards me.  That's what they do, bud.  I don't cry that a plate tank with a healer and a few decent groupmates behind it will totally wreck a full group of otherwise "overpowered" scouts and/or DPS classes.  That's what plate tanks do.  They give me headaches.  I find a plate tank of my own, and then we have a real group v group battle, and everyone is happy.  Or, if not happy, at least satisfied that there was some decent PvP going down. From its inception this game has always been based around group play.  The PVE was balanced around it.  Non-heroic mobs are an afterthought to most players, a nuisance, something to tether while you run through zones to get to the real content.  PVP is balanced the same way.  Every class has its role in a group, and if you construct a well balanced 6 man group you will find that you're nearly unstoppable.  Why?  Because almost everyone else doesn't want to play that way for some reason.  They'll throw together 5 scouts and a healer and wonder why they can't scratch that plate tank w/ the shaman and druid keeping it alive.  They'll PVP solo and complain that the R-P-S doesn't favor them at least 90% of the time.  They'll sit, drooling, facing cloud platforms and spam massive frontal AE's or knockbacks and call that "pwnage". Here's the deal, if you haven't been paying attention during your PvP stint: The <b>primary</b> PvP balance is around the Group v Group encounter. The <b>secondary</b> PvP balance is around the 1 v 1 encounter. The <b>tertiary</b> PvP balance is around the Raid v Raid encounter. Chew on that for awhile.  See if maybe everything makes sense.  See if casters, healers, tanks, and scouts look balanced from a Group v Group point of view.  See if that "weak" solo class suddenly becomes a nightmare in a group (well played enchanters scare the sh$t out of me).  See if maybe SOE didn't do a pretty fine job at balancing classes Group v Group, while still maintaining a very decent R-P-S setup 1v1. Open your eyes.  Step outside your little miserable world that you've constructed around your character.  Try to see things for what they really are. Maybe you could program a better game?  150,000 players... each with their own wants and desires... screaming at you every time you change even the slightest thing.  You seem to have a pretty high opinion of yourself, maybe you could ink gameplay policy for SOE full time?

Cocytus
03-27-2007, 02:26 AM
<p>This is 3 CAs + double up.</p><p>Stuns are always a good way to interrupt this. If they beat you to the stun? Well, looks like you died for being slower witted /shrug.</p>

Bluetygur
03-27-2007, 09:55 AM
<p><span style="font-size: x-small; font-family: verdana,geneva">After reading through most of this thread, I still cannot decide whether an exploit is taking place or not.  I hope we can resolve this with combat logs, etc.  I know this has been a totally frustrating situation for several people I know.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small">One point the OP makes is that this should not take place, exploit or not, and this something I agree with.  One-shot kills against even-conned, decently geared-out opponents, should not take place.  By "one-shot" I do not necessarily mean "one combat/spell art", though this does happen too.  I mean anything that takes place in less than 2 seconds.  I just think this is bad for pvp.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small">To those who have said that toning down (nerfing) special abilities to remove the "one-shot" from pvp would lead to the FotM curse, I agree that this is a valid concern.  On the other hand, when I look out there at t7 pvp, it seems to me that there is ALREADY a FotM problem.  Can anyone deny that there is a huge bias toward certain classes?  This is particularly true among solo-ers, but even in grouping you see it.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small">Finally, I just want to mention one amusing thing.  This is not aimed at any particular poster here, it's just something I see often on these forums.  When I point out how bad the "one-shotting" is, the response is often something along the lines of "well what do you expect, you play a grouping class, so get a group".  Later, these are the same people that complain when they are rolled by a group, because "you suck solo, why are you afraid to solo, where is all the solo pvp any more??"  </span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small">rotfl</span></p>

Bozidar
03-27-2007, 10:36 AM
<cite>dnice74 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00">.....and this is the garbage I have seen from you in other threads. Don't start. Please. </span></p></blockquote> gfys.. seen plenty of garbage from you, but didn't come at you with a [Removed for Content] attitude. 

Bozidar
03-27-2007, 10:38 AM
<cite>Bluetygur wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="font-size: x-small; font-family: verdana,geneva">After reading through most of this thread, I still cannot decide whether an exploit is taking place or not.  </span></p></blockquote> I think the OP went out pvping last night and couldn't find a brigand.... ?

dnice74
03-27-2007, 11:04 AM
<cite>Firamas wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>dnice74 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00">In fact, I want a combat log, because even if it proves there is no hack, it will prove that your class is still retardedly op(at least against casters, and spare me the r-p-s bs cause I'm not going to listen). You should PRAY this is only a hack.</span></p></blockquote><p> I'm not going to "spare you the r-p-s".  Not now; not ever.  It's deeply ingrained as part of the PvP mechanics in this, and basically every, game.  Every class/archetype has (or should have) its "foil". If not, the precious balance you speak of drains away in a whirlpool of FotM ugliness.  Rogues have <i>always</i> been good at taking down clothies.  It's what they do.  It doesn't make them "retardedly overpowered".  I don't claim that shaman or clerics are OP because they can easily heal themselves through all my DPS while still (if battle specced, or correctly geared) putting out respectable DPS back towards me.  That's what they do, bud.  I don't cry that a plate tank with a healer and a few decent groupmates behind it will totally wreck a full group of otherwise "overpowered" scouts and/or DPS classes.  That's what plate tanks do.  They give me headaches.  I find a plate tank of my own, and then we have a real group v group battle, and everyone is happy.  Or, if not happy, at least satisfied that there was some decent PvP going down.</p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">This is your misguided <b><u>opinion</u></b>, and oddly enough(I can't say that with a straight face) it ALWAYS comes from the op classes or those who like abusing imbalances. It has no basis in fact. If Sony agreed with you, there would be no nerfing of any class in PvP, because hey, some classes are just supposed to kick [I cannot control my vocabulary], huh? Were all classes perfectly balanced, there would be no "fotm" nonsense, so there goes your point there, too. Look, Sony tries very hard, and I think there is a LOT about PvP that is balanced pretty well (except bards). Hell, even assassins are pretty balanced right now. But I will never agree with you, so don't waste your breath. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">As bluetiger mentions, enough with the "get a group" garbage. I'm sure bards and cloth classes and whoever else brigands own are doubling over with laughter at your constant "get a group" and "r-p-s ftw!" arguments. Laughable, purely laughable. I can honestly say I have decent gear now. Why bother to get any more when a brigand using this...this....whatever this is can decimate me in a heartbeat? </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">There are op things in this game. I once argued for about 30 pages about why decap and one-shots needed to go. While I am not even close to arrogant enough to think that the devs based their decision on my arguments, consider it a fact that they (fortunately) DO realize there are op things in this game. Apparently, conjurors got whacked with the nerfbat once or twice, too. Wouldn't have bothered me in the slightest. If I'm doing things I shouldn't be doing, where is the challenge in that? </span></p><p> From its inception this game has always been based around group play.  The PVE was balanced around it.  Non-heroic mobs are an afterthought to most players, a nuisance, something to tether while you run through zones to get to the real content.  PVP is balanced the same way.  Every class has its role in a group, and if you construct a well balanced 6 man group you will find that you're nearly unstoppable.  Why?  Because almost everyone else doesn't want to play that way for some reason.  They'll throw together 5 scouts and a healer and wonder why they can't scratch that plate tank w/ the shaman and druid keeping it alive.  They'll PVP solo and complain that the R-P-S doesn't favor them at least 90% of the time.  They'll sit, drooling, facing cloud platforms and spam massive frontal AE's or knockbacks and call that "pwnage". Here's the deal, if you haven't been paying attention during your PvP stint: The <b>primary</b> PvP balance is around the Group v Group encounter. The <b>secondary</b> PvP balance is around the 1 v 1 encounter. The <b>tertiary</b> PvP balance is around the Raid v Raid encounter. Chew on that for awhile.  See if maybe everything makes sense.  See if casters, healers, tanks, and scouts look balanced from a Group v Group point of view.  See if that "weak" solo class suddenly becomes a nightmare in a group (well played enchanters scare the sh$t out of me).  See if maybe SOE didn't do a pretty fine job at balancing classes Group v Group, while still maintaining a very decent R-P-S setup 1v1.</p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Blah blah blah blah blah. No, I will not go "get a group" because that's what this game is designed for, so let it go. Type up 36 pages of this drivel and my answer will be the same. Again - I think Sony has done a good job turning a PvE game into a PvP game. Group PvP is excellent, and surprisingly, solo PvP is pretty good too; you can tell when someone is good or when they are really geared out. Overall, the PvP game is far more balanced than it is unbalanced, and it will probably never be perfect. But here it is again, because no one wants to get it - if something is broken, it needs to be fixed. Hack, macro, or otherwise, there is a problem here. </span>  <i>Open your eyes.  Step outside your little miserable world</i> <i>Maybe you could program a better game?</i> <i>You seem to have a pretty high opinion of yourself, maybe you could ink gameplay policy for SOE full time?</i></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">I love it when people think they are being subtle. Getting a little frustrated? Awwwww. </span><span style="color: #00cc00">Debating 101: insulting your opponent does not make your case any stronger; it only serves to make you look like a simpleton. </span></p></blockquote>

dnice74
03-27-2007, 11:09 AM
<cite>Bluetygur wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="font-size: x-small; font-family: verdana,geneva">After reading through most of this thread, I still cannot decide whether an exploit is taking place or not.  I hope we can resolve this with combat logs, etc.  I know this has been a totally frustrating situation for several people I know.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small">One point the OP makes is that this should not take place, exploit or not, and this something I agree with.  One-shot kills against even-conned, decently geared-out opponents, should not take place.  By "one-shot" I do not necessarily mean "one combat/spell art", though this does happen too.  I mean anything that takes place in less than 2 seconds.  I just think this is bad for pvp.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small">To those who have said that toning down (nerfing) special abilities to remove the "one-shot" from pvp would lead to the FotM curse, I agree that this is a valid concern.  On the other hand, when I look out there at t7 pvp, it seems to me that there is ALREADY a FotM problem.  Can anyone deny that there is a huge bias toward certain classes?  This is particularly true among solo-ers, but even in grouping you see it.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small">Finally, I just want to mention one amusing thing.  This is not aimed at any particular poster here, it's just something I see often on these forums.  When I point out how bad the "one-shotting" is, the response is often something along the lines of "well what do you expect, you play a grouping class, so get a group".  Later, these are the same people that complain when they are rolled by a group, because "you suck solo, why are you afraid to solo, where is all the solo pvp any more??"  </span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small">rotfl</span></p></blockquote> <span style="color: #00cc00">Thank God! A voice of reason. I'm glad someone realizes this isn't a whine-fest. </span>

dnice74
03-27-2007, 11:23 AM
<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>dnice74 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00">.....and this is the garbage I have seen from you in other threads. Don't start. Please. </span></p></blockquote> gfys.. seen plenty of garbage from you, but didn't come at you with a [I cannot control my vocabulary] attitude. </blockquote><p> My my. Still have that temper, I see. </p><p>You are still far removed from T7, and don't know what I am talking about here. When you do hit T7, come back and contribute. </p><p>Edit: Pay attention to the timestamps. I wrote that post before I went to bed. As soon as I get a combat log, it will be posted. </p>

Bozidar
03-27-2007, 11:31 AM
<cite>dnice74 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote>gfys.. seen plenty of garbage from you, but didn't come at you with a [I cannot control my vocabulary] attitude. </blockquote><p> My my. Still have that temper, I see. </p></blockquote>You started it, boobie.  As for your log.. if it's such a problem it should have taken you about 2 minutes to find a brig to take care of it.  Maybe just before bed time? (like i was supposed to know what time you go to bed)

dnice74
03-27-2007, 11:44 AM
<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>dnice74 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote>gfys.. seen plenty of garbage from you, but didn't come at you with a [I cannot control my vocabulary] attitude. </blockquote><p> My my. Still have that temper, I see. </p></blockquote>You started it, boobie.  As for your log.. if it's such a problem it should have taken you about 2 minutes to find a brig to take care of it.  Maybe just before bed time? (like i was supposed to know what time you go to bed)</blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00">No, your comment was pretty snide....but like I said, I don't feel like debating that. Let's stick on point. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">For the cheap seats: when I get a combat log illustrating this problem, you will see it. I've actually been tradeskilling because I want my BCG. I have family coming into town this week. I have a job. Sometimes, I smoke brigands, so that log won't do any good. Maybe I'll take a night off to pick my nose as well. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">The point is: everyone save the cries of save the cries of "HAHAHZ N00B YOU HAV NO PRUF". Furthermore, I don't even need the logs to show me there is an imbalance here. Hack or not, something is wrong and I know it. The logs aren't a priority to me, but I will get them the next time I get virtually one-shotted. </span> </p>

Bozidar
03-27-2007, 11:52 AM
<p>it used to be assassins (i'm sure still is), now it's brigands (i'm sure always was).. what class you going to call for a round-aboug nerf on next?  Wizards? Warlocks?  Other high-dps classes that can kill fast if you're caught unawares?</p><p>Someone sumed it up pretty clearly above about the balance in this game.  It's a group game, group balance comes first.. just because you have trouble soloing a we paper towel doesn't mean someone's imbalanced.  Try going exile and seeing how those swashies are in T7.  or rangers.. </p>

dnice74
03-27-2007, 12:42 PM
<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>it used to be assassins (i'm sure still is), now it's brigands (i'm sure always was).. what class you going to call for a round-aboug nerf on next?  Wizards? Warlocks?  Other high-dps classes that can kill fast if you're caught unawares?</p><p>Someone sumed it up pretty clearly above about the balance in this game.  It's a group game, group balance comes first.. just because you have trouble soloing a we paper towel doesn't mean someone's imbalanced.  Try going exile and seeing how those swashies are in T7.  or rangers.. </p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Fact: you contributed nothing to that last thread that you are referring to. And if it was about who "won" the argument? They (correctly) nerfed decap (which was hitting for 7k+). <u>You lose.</u> Bye. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Fact(s): You like to argue, and always show up in threads that I'm in to test your prowess. Unfortunately, you're not very good at it, Boz. Throw in the fact that your temper makes you almost incoherent at times, and your threads become downright painful to read. You are one of those people who, even when faced with superior evidence to the contrary, will keep spewing the same broken arguments - and you're already repeating points that I've debated here. Oh, and look, there are some insults, too. Exact same bs I saw in the GU 31 thread. It was wrong there, and you're still wrong now. Oh, wait - did you forget they nerfed decap?</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">I know your style, and unless you have something new, different, or logical, I'm not going to debate with you. Unfortuantely, I don't seem to be able to ignore trolls, but I'm certainly not going to waste anymore of my time with your nonsense, either. Oh, and one more for the road: While I'm not exceptionally intelligent, I am smarter than you, Boz. Run along now and let the big boys talk, k?   </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Fact: You are (still) not T7, and I feel you have nothing useful to add to this thread. But thanks for the info on how to pull combat logs. You're dismissed. </span></p>

Sarkothan
03-27-2007, 01:10 PM
<p>Dnice74, its sounds like you need a hug.</p><p>/hug</p><p>btw, you do realize you're more often than not quite rude to people? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

Greeen-_-Ranger
03-27-2007, 01:37 PM
<p>I play in tier 7 as a Brigand.  You say we are overpowered because of multiple combinations of ca's often involving double up (which is awesome).  Well...I got hit with ice nova and it was instadeath for me.  Nerf that to.  Hmm, an exile ranger one shotted me with sniper shot, nerf him.  Illusionists can strip me of power and a freakin guardian can beat me at that point, nerf them please.  Jesus christ, troubador's have charmed me into an epic a few times, nerf.</p><p>Edited to reflect:  That troubador charm took like no time because I didn't see him before I hit an epic, so that's even worse than your 2 seconds of drama.  The guardian illusionist thing is way worse than ice nova because sitting there watching a GUARDIAN beat my brains out, was far worse than the sniper shot or ice nova.  Btw.  sniper shot and ice nova take alot less time than my 3 seconds of ca's, so imo you should maybe just take dudes advise and start playing it in a group, or at least a duo / trio.  The ONLY thing that makes you somewhat legitimate is that I respect Lazyfrog's word and if he is agreeing, then there must be a problem here.  I still dislike the fact that you have strived to demean everyone who has had an opinion which contradicts yours.</p>

Bozidar
03-27-2007, 01:45 PM
<cite>Sarkothan wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>btw, you do realize you're more often than not quite rude to people? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote><p> Probably not, the lack of awarness is a simptom of being an [Removed for Content] hole.  I started off the conversation with him in this thread being perfectly helpful, and respectful, and for no reason he decides to be a dick and provoke me.</p><p>So be it.. </p><p>FACT: dnice is a twit who thinks that everything in pvp should revolve around solo pvp because he's such a dolt that no one will group with him for pvp.</p>

dnice74
03-27-2007, 04:11 PM
<cite>Sarkothan wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Dnice74, its sounds like you need a hug.</p><p>/hug</p><p>btw, you do realize you're more often than not quite rude to people? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote><p> Sigh. </p><p>Yup. And 9 times out of ten, it is in response to a rude comment, then I get made out to be the bad guy when i burn them to a crisp. People are VERY selective with their memory. /shrug</p><p>The only time I have been out of line in this thread is with Xova, and I ninja-edited my very first response to her. I don't just randomly flame people. You did read this thread, right? Who started the flaming? I suggest you do that next time before you (albeit kindly) decide to lecture me, thanks. Or don't. I'm here to prove a point, not to win friends. Plus - being the bad guy is funny. </p>

dnice74
03-27-2007, 04:34 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><p>I play in tier 7 as a Brigand.  You say we are overpowered because of multiple combinations of ca's often involving double up (which is awesome).  Well...I got hit with ice nova and it was instadeath for me.  Nerf that to.  Hmm, an exile ranger one shotted me with sniper shot, nerf him.  Illusionists can strip me of power and a freakin guardian can beat me at that point, nerf them please.  Jesus christ, troubador's have charmed me into an epic a few times, nerf.</p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Do you see me whining about HT, or decap, or wizards? How about wardens? I still think one-shots need to be toned down(a little, but the balance is getting pretty good these days), but this isn't the thread for it. I told you people before - I couldn't give a crap about dying. If you morons think I came on here to post because I got owned, think again. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Anyway - you're a poorly geared lvl 64, and I bet all those people were level 70. Your examples are irrelevant, so stop trying to turn this into "wreakinn's a whiner!" Bring all of your brigand buddies here and complain, too. I could care less. There is something wrong here, and I intend to call attention to it. </span></p><p>Edited to reflect:  That troubador charm took like no time because I didn't see him before I hit an epic, so that's even worse than your 2 seconds of drama.  The guardian illusionist thing is way worse than ice nova because sitting there watching a GUARDIAN beat my brains out, was far worse than the sniper shot or ice nova.  Btw.  sniper shot and ice nova take alot less time than my 3 seconds of ca's, so imo you should maybe just take dudes advise and start playing it in a group, or at least a duo / trio.  The ONLY thing that makes you somewhat legitimate is that I respect Lazyfrog's word and if he is agreeing, then there must be a problem here.  I still dislike the fact that you have strived to demean everyone who has had an opinion which contradicts yours.</p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">So a GUARDIAN isn't supposed to take you out? Look, it's yet another scout who feels ENTITLED to beat people, what a surprise. You people crack me up. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Wrong. I demean the people who are insulting me, which so far has been about every single person in this thread, including you. So in case you feel left out - go level that crappy toon and I'll see you in barren. I think I've gone up against you, actually. You might want to add conjurors to that list of classes who have owned you in two seconds. </span></p></blockquote>

dnice74
03-27-2007, 04:36 PM
<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sarkothan wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>btw, you do realize you're more often than not quite rude to people? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote><p> Probably not, the lack of awarness is a simptom of being an [I cannot control my vocabulary] hole.  I started off the conversation with him in this thread being perfectly helpful, and respectful, and for no reason he decides to be a [I cannot control my vocabulary] and provoke me.</p><p>So be it.. </p><p>FACT: dnice is a twit who thinks that everything in pvp should revolve around solo pvp because he's such a dolt that no one will group with him for pvp.</p></blockquote>Fact: I haven't had good fried chicken in years.

Greeen-_-Ranger
03-27-2007, 05:23 PM
My crappily geared brigand has beenm killing 70's since level 49, so if you think your some great pvper think again.  I dont think I'm entitled to beat anyone, I 'm saying that my class defining abilities are fine, just like SNIPER SHOT HT ICE NOVA FUSION ETC ARE FINE.  I LOSE sometimes.  It happens dude, get over it.  You are whining about one class, if you are want to pick on brigands, demanding that we are cheating and need to be nerfed, then pick on your own little friends because there is absolutely no point in contesting in conversation with someone who refuses to see the whole picture.  The fact is, many classes have things that are overpowered, dont come here and complain about it.  As far as 70's I've beaten: at lowest the first 70 I killed was a druid named Xegome.  I've killed Zerke, I've killed Faqfper, I've beaten the [Removed for Content] out of a few from Queen's Guards, which is a FACT.  Cold hard fact.  Ask chiefslapaho why he had to call in dipdoink and the other 70's when he was presented with a relatively fair fight?  They wiped us when it was 3 on 6, but we came back and took down 2 of them before we got reinforcements, aat which point queens guards had routed a second group to their aid.  you want to meet me for a one on one, I'll show you what this crappy geared brigand can do to a punk [Removed for Content] little whining [Removed for Content] like you.  [Removed for Content] lamer.

Greeen-_-Ranger
03-27-2007, 05:25 PM
AND if you doubt my pvp abilities, consult Daal, Prestion, Reese etc and ask them about Greeen.  Because I assure you, I'm not your average scout, and I'm good with MULTIPLE classes.

Bozidar
03-27-2007, 05:34 PM
<p>Amirus, let it go, buddy.  This guy isn't interested in getting his points across, he's not interested in debating the topic.  He just wants to have a fun little flame war.  Just ignore him.  When he brings up a point, pwn his face with it and ignore his flaming dee-dee-dee replies. </p><p>He plays a solo clothy and complains about classes that are better at solo pvp, and will never accept the fact that it's a group game.</p>

Greeen-_-Ranger
03-27-2007, 05:36 PM
Your right...one last thing though for him:  You've made comments about Damechode not being on your level, well I'm in Tier 7 and a few levels under, I'll give you the level advantage and still mop the floor with your face.

dnice74
03-27-2007, 05:44 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>My crappily geared brigand has beenm killing 70's since level 49, so if you think your some great pvper think again.  I dont think I'm entitled to beat anyone, I 'm saying that my class defining abilities are fine, just like SNIPER SHOT HT ICE NOVA FUSION ETC ARE FINE.  I LOSE sometimes.  It happens dude, get over it.  You are whining about one class, if you are want to pick on brigands, demanding that we are cheating and need to be nerfed, then pick on your own little friends because there is absolutely no point in contesting in conversation with someone who refuses to see the whole picture.  The fact is, many classes have things that are overpowered, dont come here and complain about it.  As far as 70's I've beaten: at lowest the first 70 I killed was a druid named Xegome.  I've killed Zerke, I've killed Faqfper, I've beaten the [Removed for Content] out of a few from Queen's Guards, which is a FACT.  Cold hard fact.  Ask chiefslapaho why he had to call in dipdoink and the other 70's when he was presented with a relatively fair fight?  They wiped us when it was 3 on 6, but we came back and took down 2 of them before we got reinforcements, aat which point queens guards had routed a second group to their aid.  you want to meet me for a one on one, I'll show you what this crappy geared brigand can do to a punk [I cannot control my vocabulary] little whining [I cannot control my vocabulary] like you.  [I cannot control my vocabulary] lamer.</blockquote><p> <span style="color: #00cc00">Have you read this thread? How many times have I said it now - this isn't a whinefest. I have said....nevermind. I'm not going to explain it again. Go re-read. </span></p><p><i><u><span style="color: #00cc00">AND if you doubt my pvp abilities, consult Daal, Prestion, Reese etc and ask them about Greeen.  Because I assure you, I'm not your average scout, and I'm good with MULTIPLE classes.</span></u></i></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">I wondered if you were the same Greeen in our vent channel; I think you have a member in our guild, too. Guess what? You are going to be in neither after tonight, so thanks for clearing that up. We don't take active Borgata members. So you brag about killing our members and then expect me to consult with mine about how good you are? <span style="font-size: medium">r o f l!!</span> oh, and by the way - you couldn't kill me if you tried. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Anyways - enough of this nonsense. I will be on the lookout for brigands tonight; unfortunately, if this is a hack, I have called too much attention to it and no one will be using it (except for Famine). Rest assured, I will be posting combat logs asap. </span></p>

Greeen-_-Ranger
03-27-2007, 06:03 PM
No need to look, if I can't kill you if I tried, how come you dont want to meet pony boy?  Come on, meet me somewhere nice and quiet, and I'll show you whats up.  And greeen is no longer in your guild, he is in the holding area to be sold for like 20 bucks, been quite a few since I've been on your vent...so who are you and where can we meet, I'll help you with your research by smashing your face in.

Sarkothan
03-27-2007, 06:17 PM
<p>As a matter of exception i'm going to post on topic. Albeit i do not agree with dnice's style, he does have a point. Battles should last longer than 4 seconds, unless some huge level differences. Where is the fun in even owning someone in 4 seconds.</p><p>Rock paper scissor is no excuse.<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>As for the crying argument: A: You're beautiful B: Stop crying get over it.</p><p>Doesn't making sense? neither does your crying remark.</p>

Bozidar
03-27-2007, 07:07 PM
Sarkothan wrote: <blockquote><p>Rock paper scissor is no excuse.<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote><p> But it is.  this isn't a solo friendly game for pvp.  You are going to have a tremendous amount of trouble killing an easily soloable class if you're not a soloable class. There is <i>always</i>  going to be one class that's best at solo pvp, there can never be a solo balance.  Right now it's swashies.. </p><p>But it's a group game. Come to me with a reason why ability A from class X is over powered because when you have an X you can beat anything... </p><p>1v1 pvp should never hold sway in the betterment of the game.</p><p>If your tank in your group can't protect your clothy, then a dps class should be able to take you out.  But it won't be as fast as if you're solo because in a group you're tougher to take down... especially when you know how to play.</p>

Darlion
03-27-2007, 07:51 PM
<cite>Sarkothan wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>As a matter of exception i'm going to post on topic. Albeit i do not agree with dnice's style, he does have a point. Battles should last longer than 4 seconds, unless some huge level differences. Where is the fun in even owning someone in 4 seconds.</p><p>Rock paper scissor is no excuse.<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote><p> There are tools avaliable to all classes to increase survivability. As a wizard it's called manashield (manashield is ridiculous as a warlock), as a conjuror you have stoneskins, as a necro you have fears, as a Coercer/Illusionist you have mezs. If you are dying in 4 seconds you have no clue what you are doing, or in that circumstance were not paying close attention and allowed the person to sneak up on you.</p><p>Also if you are playing a clothy you should understand and accept the fact that everyone is going to treat you like a free kill. You want to know why? Because you are built to be a target. You do nice damage with crowd control, but if they get to you, you die. It's how it is in pve and how it is in pvp, know it, live with it. You can survive a few hits and walk away, but if you expect to stand there and take the hits, you need a new class. Clothies are about knowledge, and playing with finesse, not about brute force. If you picked up a wizard expecting to run around fusioning people all day, you need to reroll right now.</p><p>Anyway my point. The game is not rock paper scissors, you're right, it's a 2 ton rock and your head. Guess which one gives way? You know how you combat this? Get something to get in the way of the rock. </p><p>Here's an example: We've got a warlock, a guardian, and a mystic. Individually they are really weak (Lets assume this is true just for kicks). Next we have three brigands, they could easily rock the world of all three (probibly). But... three brigands, versus a guardian, warlock, and mystic... Guess who gets crushed? The brigands would get dropped so fast it's not funny. This is a grouped game, therefore group setup is everything. When you only have one member of a group, it's very obvious when there is a flaw in your group of one. If you have a problem with it, play a class that excells at something else, or play something else.</p>

dnice74
03-27-2007, 09:32 PM
<p>As promised. This is AFTER he killed an entire party of three, wearing all fabled/legendary, within about 15 seconds. I have 7 pieces of fabled(5 from the pvp set), rest is legendary or the EoF collections, which is all fabled-comparable. The only really crappy thing I have is my ranged item and the Vultak eye (which I wear for the rune). </p><p>(1175040346)[Tue Mar 27 20:05:46 2007] Famine's Deceitful Blow hits YOU for 359 slashing damage. (1175040346)[Tue Mar 27 20:05:46 2007] You send your pet in for the attack! (1175040346)[Tue Mar 27 20:05:46 2007] You send your pet in for the attack! (1175040346)[Tue Mar 27 20:05:46 2007] You send your pet in for the attack! (1175040346)[Tue Mar 27 20:05:46 2007] You send your pet in for the attack! (1175040346)[Tue Mar 27 20:05:46 2007] Famine hits YOU for 120 slashing damage. (1175040346)[Tue Mar 27 20:05:46 2007] Famine's Curse of the Vile hits YOU for 192 poison damage. (1175040346)[Tue Mar 27 20:05:46 2007] Famine tries to slash YOU, but misses. (1175040347)[Tue Mar 27 20:05:47 2007] Famine's Dispatch hits YOU for 670 slashing damage. (117504034<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />[Tue Mar 27 20:05:48 2007] You start fighting. (117504034<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />[Tue Mar 27 20:05:48 2007] Wreakinn's Wave of Flames hits Famine for 94 heat damage. (117504034<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />[Tue Mar 27 20:05:48 2007] Famine's Malicious Assault hits YOU for 750 slashing damage. (117504034<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />[Tue Mar 27 20:05:48 2007] YOU try to pierce Famine with Barbed Guard, but Famine resists. (117504034<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />[Tue Mar 27 20:05:48 2007] YOUR Flameshield hits Famine for 34 heat damage. (117504034<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />[Tue Mar 27 20:05:48 2007] Famine takes reprisal damage! (117504034<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />[Tue Mar 27 20:05:48 2007] Famine's Malicious Assault hits YOU for 874 slashing damage. (117504034<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />[Tue Mar 27 20:05:48 2007] Famine tries to slash YOU, but misses. (117504034<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />[Tue Mar 27 20:05:48 2007] Famine tries to slash YOU, but misses. (1175040349)[Tue Mar 27 20:05:49 2007] Famine's Restrain hits YOU for 782 crushing damage. (1175040349)[Tue Mar 27 20:05:49 2007] YOUR Barbed Guard hits Famine for 35 piercing damage. (1175040349)[Tue Mar 27 20:05:49 2007] YOUR Flameshield hits Famine for 34 heat damage. (1175040349)[Tue Mar 27 20:05:49 2007] Famine takes reprisal damage! (1175040349)[Tue Mar 27 20:05:49 2007] Famine's Restrain hits YOU for 735 crushing damage. (1175040349)[Tue Mar 27 20:05:49 2007] YOUR Barbed Guard hits Famine for 35 piercing damage. (1175040349)[Tue Mar 27 20:05:49 2007] YOUR Flameshield hits Famine for 34 heat damage. (1175040349)[Tue Mar 27 20:05:49 2007] Famine takes reprisal damage! (1175040349)[Tue Mar 27 20:05:49 2007] You are immune to Root effects. (1175040349)[Tue Mar 27 20:05:49 2007] Famine's Malicious Assault hits YOU for 687 slashing damage. (1175040349)[Tue Mar 27 20:05:49 2007] YOUR Barbed Guard hits Famine for 35 piercing damage. (1175040349)[Tue Mar 27 20:05:49 2007] YOU try to burn Famine with Flameshield, but Famine resists. (1175040349)[Tue Mar 27 20:05:49 2007] Famine's Malicious Assault hits YOU for 696 slashing damage. (1175040349)[Tue Mar 27 20:05:49 2007] You stop fighting.</p><p>So explain this to me. 2.5-3 seconds, and I'm down. Explain to me how this is balanced pvp. Hell, I'd rather have assassins back to decapping for 7500. Personally, I still think there is some kind of hack here, but like I said: a combat log isn't going to prove it, and this is still a ridiculous imbalance. There is no counter to this. I had no time to hit anything other than auto-attack, and I'm dead. Snares and roots are resisted, they can snare me from halfway across the zone, they wear chain - this is horrible. </p><p>To use Famine as an example(just because he was the first brig I ran into solo that does this) - he has nice gear, I will give him credit for that. But he and others are literally impossible to kill when they are using...whatever it is. He is not the only one doing this - again, there are other players I have petitioned <b>who haven't been on for weeks since the petition</b>. Gee, what a coincidence! Furthermore, if you don't like or believe me, he does this to swashies, tanks, you name it. The part of this that I cannot convey to you is the this is like flipping a switch for them. When they aren't doing this, they are very killable. When they are, forget it. Keep in mind the first thing I posted in this thread. </p><p>I'll be counting the number of "OMG THIS IS SAILWIND + MA AND DU, GO CRY SOME MORE" replies. Flame on, kids. </p>

dnice74
03-27-2007, 09:36 PM
<cite>Darlion wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sarkothan wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>As a matter of exception i'm going to post on topic. Albeit i do not agree with dnice's style, he does have a point. Battles should last longer than 4 seconds, unless some huge level differences. Where is the fun in even owning someone in 4 seconds.</p><p>Rock paper scissor is no excuse.<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote><p> There are tools avaliable to all classes to increase survivability. As a wizard it's called manashield (manashield is ridiculous as a warlock), as a conjuror you have stoneskins, as a necro you have fears, as a Coercer/Illusionist you have mezs. If you are dying in 4 seconds you have no clue what you are doing, or in that circumstance were not paying close attention and allowed the person to sneak up on you.</p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Do you play a conj? Let me tell you about ss: great against wizards, does jack [Removed for Content] against melee. Don't run your trap when you have no clue what you are talking about. Sneak up on you??? Give me a break. If I don't land one snare or stun, I'm dead. Even If I do, I'm still probably dead. </span></p><p>Also if you are playing a clothy you should understand and accept the fact that everyone is going to treat you like a free kill. You want to know why? Because you are built to be a target. You do nice damage with crowd control, but if they get to you, you die. It's how it is in pve and how it is in pvp, know it, live with it. You can survive a few hits and walk away, but if you expect to stand there and take the hits, you need a new class. Clothies are about knowledge, and playing with finesse, not about brute force. If you picked up a wizard expecting to run around fusioning people all day, you need to reroll right now.Anyway my point. The game is not rock paper scissors, you're right, it's a 2 ton rock and your head. Guess which one gives way? You know how you combat this? Get something to get in the way of the rock. Here's an example: We've got a warlock, a guardian, and a mystic. Individually they are really weak (Lets assume this is true just for kicks). Next we have three brigands, they could easily rock the world of all three (probibly). But... three brigands, versus a guardian, warlock, and mystic... Guess who gets crushed? The brigands would get dropped so fast it's not funny. This is a grouped game, therefore group setup is everything. When you only have one member of a group, it's very obvious when there is a flaw in your group of one. If you have a problem with it, play a class that excells at something else, or play something else.</p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">[Removed for Content]. The answer isn't "go group!" So if I run into a brigand using this hack/macro, I should go get a tank? Just go away with this crap. </span></p></blockquote>

Ibunubi
03-27-2007, 09:46 PM
<cite>dnice74 wrote:</cite><blockquote>My my. Still have that temper, I see. <p>You are still far removed from T7, and don't know what I am talking about here. When you do hit T7, come back and contribute. </p><p>Edit: Pay attention to the timestamps. I wrote that post before I went to bed. As soon as I get a combat log, it will be posted.</p></blockquote>Seriously, just chill. Just because someone disagrees with what you're saying doesn't mean they're "misguided" as you call them. Until you post a combat log of the "exploiting" you're talking about, there is really not much else you can say. Many times we have told you that through AA's and Double Up, it really can significantly increase the brigand's burst dps for that 2 seconds. That there is your "Fact, tbh~".

shiftyt
03-27-2007, 10:01 PM
Plain and simple. When a Brigand and take 3 level 70's that are fabled, then there is a problem with how the game is setup. I've herd the same complaints about Swashbucklers. And if thats the case then they should be nerfed also.  Don't mistake an overpowered class for skills people.

Xova
03-27-2007, 10:03 PM
<cite>dnice74 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sarkothan wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Dnice74, its sounds like you need a hug.</p><p>/hug</p><p>btw, you do realize you're more often than not quite rude to people? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote><p> Sigh. </p><p>Yup. And 9 times out of ten, it is in response to a rude comment, then I get made out to be the bad guy when i burn them to a crisp. People are VERY selective with their memory. /shrug</p><p>The only time I have been out of line in this thread is with Xova, and I ninja-edited my very first response to her. I don't just randomly flame people. You did read this thread, right? Who started the flaming? I suggest you do that next time before you (albeit kindly) decide to lecture me, thanks. Or don't. I'm here to prove a point, not to win friends. Plus - being the bad guy is funny. </p></blockquote><p> Actually your post still reads as I originally read it:</p><p>dnice74 wrote: </p><blockquote><p>Xova, if that was a serious question, than the answer is yes. If that was sarcasm, as it appears, then shut the hell up if you don't know what you are talking about. </p></blockquote><p>You could have just let it go at the first sentence but you chose to add the next line in, which is what I was referring to when I said you were being unecessarily rude. Saying my question appeared to be sarcasm (which it wasn't) and following that by telling me to shut the hell up wasn't needed. Hence the reason I said I was looking forward to an apology (still waiting, incidentally.)</p><p>Anyway I hope you can clear the matter up. I started playing a swashy lately and since we share the same AA lines with Brigands in regards to our KoS trees, I've been watching the conversation with interest.</p>

Winborne
03-27-2007, 10:11 PM
<p>As part of the group of three lvl 70's that was taken down in ShiftyT's group, I can agree to the frustration involved whenever a certain brigand comes to town.  How is it if double up has a one minute recast timer he is able to take down the three of us in 15 seconds or less? </p><p> Also, it is quite frustrating to know that the same brigand mentioned above makes a Qeynosian toon to gloat about how he has a macro that makes all of his spells cast at once?  If that isn't cheating I don't know what is...</p><p>It is making it much harder to enjoy the game.  Something has to be done about this extremely unbalanced class and a certain cheater...aka...FAMINE!</p>

dnice74
03-27-2007, 10:18 PM
<cite>Xova wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>dnice74 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sarkothan wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Dnice74, its sounds like you need a hug.</p><p>/hug</p><p>btw, you do realize you're more often than not quite rude to people? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote><p> Sigh. </p><p>Yup. And 9 times out of ten, it is in response to a rude comment, then I get made out to be the bad guy when i burn them to a crisp. People are VERY selective with their memory. /shrug</p><p>The only time I have been out of line in this thread is with Xova, and I ninja-edited my very first response to her. I don't just randomly flame people. You did read this thread, right? Who started the flaming? I suggest you do that next time before you (albeit kindly) decide to lecture me, thanks. Or don't. I'm here to prove a point, not to win friends. Plus - being the bad guy is funny. </p></blockquote><p> Actually your post still reads as I originally read it:</p><p>dnice74 wrote: </p><blockquote><p>Xova, if that was a serious question, than the answer is yes. If that was sarcasm, as it appears, then shut the hell up if you don't know what you are talking about. </p></blockquote><p>You could have just let it go at the first sentence but you chose to add the next line in, which is what I was referring to when I said you were being unecessarily rude. Saying my question appeared to be sarcasm (which it wasn't) and following that by telling me to shut the hell up wasn't needed. Hence the reason I said I was looking forward to an apology (still waiting, incidentally.)</p><p>Anyway I hope you can clear the matter up. I started playing a swashy lately and since we share the same AA lines with Brigands in regards to our KoS trees, I've been watching the conversation with interest.</p></blockquote><p> <span style="color: #00cc00">Shrug. I left room for doubt. As you can see, I have no problem calling someone a [Removed for Content] outright if I think they are one. However, in the name of good will, I apologize. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Scouts are, and will probably always be overpowered against casters. Not a whine, just a fact. If you want to have a high title, gear one up and go. Every well-geared brig/swashy/assassin I know with at least some degree of competency is at least a destroyer, with most going between dread and master. </span></p>

shiftyt
03-27-2007, 10:20 PM
And as far as other classes are concerned. they don't need nerfed. the brigand is the only one i have seen take out a group solo. Wizzies get fusion so what it gets resisted more than 1/2 the time and you guys know it. And if you get mezzed so what mezzed isn't dead. Lets just all make brigands and swashies and say were the best <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

dnice74
03-27-2007, 10:25 PM
<cite>Ibunubi wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>dnice74 wrote:</cite><blockquote>My my. Still have that temper, I see. <p>You are still far removed from T7, and don't know what I am talking about here. When you do hit T7, come back and contribute. </p><p>Edit: Pay attention to the timestamps. I wrote that post before I went to bed. As soon as I get a combat log, it will be posted.</p></blockquote>Seriously, just chill. Just because someone disagrees with what you're saying doesn't mean they're "misguided" as you call them. Until you post a combat log of the "exploiting" you're talking about, there is really not much else you can say. Many times we have told you that through AA's and Double Up, it really can significantly increase the brigand's burst dps for that 2 seconds. That there is your "Fact, tbh~".</blockquote><p> <span style="color: #00cc00">Errrr....there was nothing that I needed to "chill" about. He's a known troll, and everything I said about him is true. And why are you lumping in what I said about Bozo to what I said to Fir? Stick to the topic and stop repeating yourself like a parrot; I'm not interested in lectures or your opinion of me. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">I posted a log. Why don't you go look at it, look at my gear, and tell me how dying in 2.5 seconds (or a group of 3 dying in 12-15) is balanced?</span></p>

Firam
03-27-2007, 11:06 PM
dnice74 wrote: <blockquote><p>As promised. This is AFTER he killed an entire party of three, wearing all fabled/legendary, within about 15 seconds. I have 7 pieces of fabled(5 from the pvp set), rest is legendary or the EoF collections, which is all fabled-comparable. The only really crappy thing I have is my ranged item and the Vultak eye (which I wear for the rune). </p><p>(1175040347)[Tue Mar 27 20:05:47 2007] Famine's Dispatch hits YOU for 670 slashing damage. (117504034<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />[Tue Mar 27 20:05:48 2007] You start fighting. (117504034<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />[Tue Mar 27 20:05:48 2007] Wreakinn's Wave of Flames hits Famine for 94 heat damage. (117504034<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />[Tue Mar 27 20:05:48 2007] Famine's Malicious Assault hits YOU for 750 slashing damage. (117504034<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />[Tue Mar 27 20:05:48 2007] YOU try to pierce Famine with Barbed Guard, but Famine resists. (117504034<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />[Tue Mar 27 20:05:48 2007] YOUR Flameshield hits Famine for 34 heat damage. (117504034<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />[Tue Mar 27 20:05:48 2007] Famine takes reprisal damage! (117504034<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />[Tue Mar 27 20:05:48 2007] Famine's Malicious Assault hits YOU for 874 slashing damage. (117504034<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />[Tue Mar 27 20:05:48 2007] Famine tries to slash YOU, but misses. (117504034<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />[Tue Mar 27 20:05:48 2007] Famine tries to slash YOU, but misses. (1175040349)[Tue Mar 27 20:05:49 2007] Famine's Restrain hits YOU for 782 crushing damage. (1175040349)[Tue Mar 27 20:05:49 2007] YOUR Barbed Guard hits Famine for 35 piercing damage. (1175040349)[Tue Mar 27 20:05:49 2007] YOUR Flameshield hits Famine for 34 heat damage. (1175040349)[Tue Mar 27 20:05:49 2007] Famine takes reprisal damage! (1175040349)[Tue Mar 27 20:05:49 2007] Famine's Restrain hits YOU for 735 crushing damage. (1175040349)[Tue Mar 27 20:05:49 2007] YOUR Barbed Guard hits Famine for 35 piercing damage. (1175040349)[Tue Mar 27 20:05:49 2007] YOUR Flameshield hits Famine for 34 heat damage. (1175040349)[Tue Mar 27 20:05:49 2007] Famine takes reprisal damage! (1175040349)[Tue Mar 27 20:05:49 2007] You are immune to Root effects. (1175040349)[Tue Mar 27 20:05:49 2007] Famine's Malicious Assault hits YOU for 687 slashing damage. (1175040349)[Tue Mar 27 20:05:49 2007] YOUR Barbed Guard hits Famine for 35 piercing damage. (1175040349)[Tue Mar 27 20:05:49 2007] YOU try to burn Famine with Flameshield, but Famine resists. (1175040349)[Tue Mar 27 20:05:49 2007] Famine's Malicious Assault hits YOU for 696 slashing damage. (1175040349)[Tue Mar 27 20:05:49 2007] You stop fighting.</p></blockquote> I'm not going to speak to the "brig killed 3 fabled even cons in 15 seconds" stuff, because there's no proof of that and not all circumstances are explained.  That seems extremely unlikely to me that it went down in the manner explained here, in any case.  However... In reference to the log above, yep, that's the way it works.  1 second cast CA's redux to 0.75 seconds after sailwind.  I cut out the portions prior to the sailwind-related actions.  He hit you in the following order, at the following whole-second times: 47 Dispatch 48 Assault 49 Restrain 49 Hits Double Up... instantly repeats last 2 seconds worth of CA (which ends up being 3 in this case due to sailwind) 49 Restrain 49 Assault 49 Dispatch That's the way those CA's have <i>always</i> worked.  Both PVE and PVP.  Through all the brigand nerfs, this has never been brought up as a "hack" or some crazy imbalance.  Except for now.  Except for you.  Why?  Because it's not a hack.  So again, I ask you, are you just upset that you play a low HP low mitigation class that gets in trouble against high DPS melee assaults when soloing?  Because that argument will get you nowhere fast... You might as well start campaining against Rangers and Swashies too while you're at it.  Both of them put out sick, sick short term DPS.  Swashies are currently the alpha-class in solo and small group PvP; the brigand nerfs that everyone spent thousands of hours complaining about were the "scream louder than your opponent" balance hits that put them there.  No one seemed to say anything about swashies, even though they were still, back then, insanely powerful.  And now they've silently (and through no doing of their own) slid into the #1 spot with finesse.  You just happen to play on the same faction and thus don't have to personally experience it (w/ exception of exiles).

Lazyfr
03-27-2007, 11:26 PM
<p>This post was actually fueled after a night of PVP last week. One of the initial fights that got the guel started was myself(70 Swashy), geared with 6 out of 7 PVP armor pieces and legendary/fabled weapons and jewelry, and one of our furies, also raid geared. We were fighting one solo brigand. This brigand stuck around, I was very surprised, as he started to become unimmune. As his counter went down, I hit all my buffs, en garde, perfect finnesse, the other DPS mod, and inspiration. The fury did nothing but heal and buff me. The brigand and I basically went toe to toe, with the fury healing me. In raids, I parse high 1700 DPS with no dirge. In this fight, he managed to out DPS me by enough to negate the fact I had a fury doing nothing but healing. I've read the brigand boards. I know how to play my class. I don't see how this was possible within the limits of the game. His reply it was sailwind. <b>I've used it... It doesn't double your DPS magically</b>. Also, I had torpourous strike on him, which should have slowed his casting speed...</p><p>   He made a Q toon to gloat. Said "you're still hitting the mouse buttons..." "I made macros, I hit a couple buttons and all my spells go off." I tried stringing together macros to see if this would actually decrease casting time or something... Legal Macros don't actually help that much. All in all, that is where this thread originated.   </p><p> I posted the above statement the other night. I did not have a screenshot of the combat log. I guess my current question is.... <b>Can the Devs obtain the combat logs from fights like this? I hit /report in the general chat during the conversation, will that send the combat log as well</b>. I understand the brig, and the spells and damage they are capable of... Certain times I have fought this particular brigand, he seems to go beyond that. That's the frustrating aspect of this.</p><p>  Also, You all say the DNice is bound to lose because he's a clothwearer trying to fight a brig... He's gotten those 5 pieces of PVP gear running solo. The kid can fight. He's also had his share of deaths... but has fought PVP enough to know the capabilities of the different classes... I'll leave that right there.</p><p>   <b>Underneath all the mud slinging and junk that's been posted, there has been a lot of very useful information. I would like to thank those who have been constructive.</b></p><p>Take care guys,</p><p>Lazyfrog</p>

dnice74
03-27-2007, 11:36 PM
<cite>Firamas wrote:</cite><blockquote>dnice74 wrote: <blockquote><p>As promised. This is AFTER he killed an entire party of three, wearing all fabled/legendary, within about 15 seconds. I have 7 pieces of fabled(5 from the pvp set), rest is legendary or the EoF collections, which is all fabled-comparable. The only really crappy thing I have is my ranged item and the Vultak eye (which I wear for the rune). </p><p>(1175040347)[Tue Mar 27 20:05:47 2007] Famine's Dispatch hits YOU for 670 slashing damage. (117504034<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />[Tue Mar 27 20:05:48 2007] You start fighting. (117504034<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />[Tue Mar 27 20:05:48 2007] Wreakinn's Wave of Flames hits Famine for 94 heat damage. (117504034<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />[Tue Mar 27 20:05:48 2007] Famine's Malicious Assault hits YOU for 750 slashing damage. (117504034<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />[Tue Mar 27 20:05:48 2007] YOU try to pierce Famine with Barbed Guard, but Famine resists. (117504034<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />[Tue Mar 27 20:05:48 2007] YOUR Flameshield hits Famine for 34 heat damage. (117504034<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />[Tue Mar 27 20:05:48 2007] Famine takes reprisal damage! (117504034<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />[Tue Mar 27 20:05:48 2007] Famine's Malicious Assault hits YOU for 874 slashing damage. (117504034<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />[Tue Mar 27 20:05:48 2007] Famine tries to slash YOU, but misses. (117504034<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />[Tue Mar 27 20:05:48 2007] Famine tries to slash YOU, but misses. (1175040349)[Tue Mar 27 20:05:49 2007] Famine's Restrain hits YOU for 782 crushing damage. (1175040349)[Tue Mar 27 20:05:49 2007] YOUR Barbed Guard hits Famine for 35 piercing damage. (1175040349)[Tue Mar 27 20:05:49 2007] YOUR Flameshield hits Famine for 34 heat damage. (1175040349)[Tue Mar 27 20:05:49 2007] Famine takes reprisal damage! (1175040349)[Tue Mar 27 20:05:49 2007] Famine's Restrain hits YOU for 735 crushing damage. (1175040349)[Tue Mar 27 20:05:49 2007] YOUR Barbed Guard hits Famine for 35 piercing damage. (1175040349)[Tue Mar 27 20:05:49 2007] YOUR Flameshield hits Famine for 34 heat damage. (1175040349)[Tue Mar 27 20:05:49 2007] Famine takes reprisal damage! (1175040349)[Tue Mar 27 20:05:49 2007] You are immune to Root effects. (1175040349)[Tue Mar 27 20:05:49 2007] Famine's Malicious Assault hits YOU for 687 slashing damage. (1175040349)[Tue Mar 27 20:05:49 2007] YOUR Barbed Guard hits Famine for 35 piercing damage. (1175040349)[Tue Mar 27 20:05:49 2007] YOU try to burn Famine with Flameshield, but Famine resists. (1175040349)[Tue Mar 27 20:05:49 2007] Famine's Malicious Assault hits YOU for 696 slashing damage. (1175040349)[Tue Mar 27 20:05:49 2007] You stop fighting.</p></blockquote> I'm not going to speak to the "brig killed 3 fabled even cons in 15 seconds" stuff, because there's no proof of that and not all circumstances are explained.  That seems extremely unlikely to me that it went down in the manner explained here, in any case.  However... In reference to the log above, yep, that's the way it works.  1 second cast CA's redux to 0.75 seconds after sailwind.  I cut out the portions prior to the sailwind-related actions.  He hit you in the following order, at the following whole-second times: 47 Dispatch 48 Assault 49 Restrain 49 Hits Double Up... instantly repeats last 2 seconds worth of CA (which ends up being 3 in this case due to sailwind) 49 Restrain 49 Assault 49 Dispatch That's the way those CA's have <i>always</i> worked.  Both PVE and PVP.  Through all the brigand nerfs, this has never been brought up as a "hack" or some crazy imbalance.  Except for now.  Except for you.  Why?  Because it's not a hack.  So again, I ask you, are you just upset that you play a low HP low mitigation class that gets in trouble against high DPS melee assaults when soloing?  Because that argument will get you nowhere fast... You might as well start campaining against Rangers and Swashies too while you're at it.  Both of them put out sick, sick short term DPS.  Swashies are currently the alpha-class in solo and small group PvP; the brigand nerfs that everyone spent thousands of hours complaining about were the "scream louder than your opponent" balance hits that put them there.  No one seemed to say anything about swashies, even though they were still, back then, insanely powerful.  And now they've silently (and through no doing of their own) slid into the #1 spot with finesse.  You just happen to play on the same faction and thus don't have to personally experience it (w/ exception of exiles). </blockquote><p>There is no "speak to it", I was there. Are you actually suggesting I'm lying? Come on. What do I have to gain? All I want is a more even playing field, not the destruction of the brigand class. </p><p>Nope. I love my class, I'm very good at it, and have killed many brigands, thanks - and some of the very best. But with this combination, it is utterly impossible. I-m-p-o-s-s-i-b-l-e. What is the point of having gear at all? Oh, and by the way - I fought another brigand who; while not as well-geared, is no [Removed for Content], and I would bet $$ he has this combo too. The fight was over 3 times as long, and he happened to get me this time. My point is this - if they are not using this technique(whatever the hell it is, still not convinced it's not a hack and never will be), the fight can be won. If not, you could have all avatar gear and still lose. </p><p>Let's look at this from a balance issue; I doubt I will ever find proof of a hack and that's up to the CS reps. I can't scan for 3rd party software. First of all, if they are unbalanced against a certain class, then I guess they need it too - but talk about it in another thread. I will agree that swashies are stupid op, for the most part. I can't intelligently speak about what they do in PvP(unless you want to count arena), so why bother at all? If you have a problem with them, take it up with the community as I am doing. Oh, but one more thing - tell me why Lazyfrog, one of the absolute best geared swashies on the server, gets killed just as fast as anyone else with this? Explain how he has more than twice my mit and might last only another second. Go read his post. Unlike me, he's a nice guy. =p</p><p>Again - I am about balance. You are about rps, and apparently have a vested interest in making your class unkillable. I don't know why you find the game fun when all you do is press a few macro buttons and the fight is over, but whatever. But I remain unconvinced as to why this is not considered broken. I have no counters to this. None.  I do not want to make you [Removed for Content] - but if this isn't an exploit, it needs to be turned down BADLY (so do some other classes) against casters at the very least. I am NOT suggesting that you be made weaker in PvE, either. I still don't know why they nerfed dispatch in PvE so heavily, as opposed to just nerfing it in PVP, but anyway. </p><p>One last thing: if this isn't that big of a deal, then why so many of the pvpers from the fp side brigs or assassins? Hell, why are there so many swashies? People know these classes are beyond reasonable, so they gravitate towards what is easier, then run around with their high title as if they did something special to earn it. I am not saying that brigs etc are ALL taking the easy path and don't know how to play their class, by the way.  </p><p>No, wait....one more thing. I've said this several times, but people keep ignoring it. Maybe the kid had a death in the family, but I find it odd that I petitioned one player for this (who was on every single day) and haven't seen him for two weeks. Apparently, no one else does. Oh well. </p>

dnice74
03-27-2007, 11:41 PM
<cite>Lazyfrog wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>This post was actually fueled after a night of PVP last week. One of the initial fights that got the guel started was myself(70 Swashy), geared with 6 out of 7 PVP armor pieces and legendary/fabled weapons and jewelry, and one of our furies, also raid geared. We were fighting one solo brigand. This brigand stuck around, I was very surprised, as he started to become unimmune. As his counter went down, I hit all my buffs, en garde, perfect finnesse, the other DPS mod, and inspiration. The fury did nothing but heal and buff me. The brigand and I basically went toe to toe, with the fury healing me. In raids, I parse high 1700 DPS with no dirge. In this fight, he managed to out DPS me by enough to negate the fact I had a fury doing nothing but healing. I've read the brigand boards. I know how to play my class. I don't see how this was possible within the limits of the game. His reply it was sailwind. <b>I've used it... It doesn't double your DPS magically</b>. Also, I had torpourous strike on him, which should have slowed his casting speed...</p><p>   He made a Q toon to gloat. Said "you're still hitting the mouse buttons..." "I made macros, I hit a couple buttons and all my spells go off." I tried stringing together macros to see if this would actually decrease casting time or something... Legal Macros don't actually help that much. All in all, that is where this thread originated.   </p><p> I posted the above statement the other night. I did not have a screenshot of the combat log. I guess my current question is.... <b>Can the Devs obtain the combat logs from fights like this? I hit /report in the general chat during the conversation, will that send the combat log as well</b>. I understand the brig, and the spells and damage they are capable of... Certain times I have fought this particular brigand, he seems to go beyond that. That's the frustrating aspect of this.</p><p>  Also, You all say the DNice is bound to lose because he's a clothwearer trying to fight a brig... He's gotten those 5 pieces of PVP gear running solo. The kid can fight. He's also had his share of deaths... but has fought PVP enough to know the capabilities of the different classes... I'll leave that right there.</p><p>   <b>Underneath all the mud slinging and junk that's been posted, there has been a lot of very useful information. I would like to thank those who have been constructive.</b></p><p>Take care guys,</p><p>Lazyfrog</p></blockquote><p>I'd love to see a reply to this. What say you, people?</p><p>And thanks for the compliments. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p>

Ibunubi
03-28-2007, 12:47 AM
<cite>dnice74 wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="color: #00cc00">Errrr....there was nothing that I needed to "chill" about. He's a known troll, and everything I said about him is true. And why are you lumping in what I said about Bozo to what I said to Fir? Stick to the topic and stop repeating yourself like a parrot; I'm not interested in lectures or your opinion of me. </span><p><span style="color: #00cc00">I posted a log. Why don't you go look at it, look at my gear, and tell me how dying in 2.5 seconds (or a group of 3 dying in 12-15) is balanced?</span></p></blockquote><p>I saw the log. I see a conjuror who got killed by a brigand. It doesn't matter whether you have fabled or not as a caster, you are prone to die to a scout, moreso if they get the jump. Dispatch, which he hit you with, will debuff your ~1500 mitigation down to ~300, that is not a lot protecting you. I see 4 CA's used by the brigand. There is no hack there.</p><p>If you want me to analyze how you died, I will without knowing you or the brigand. You had two seconds to click a Freedom of Mind because he hit you with the 4 second stun first. That is more than enough time to hit your instant-cast Stoneskin and/or cast something else and/or move before he rooted you. He hit you with Curse of the Vile, so he has PvP sword and I'm guessing a near, if not, full set of gear, so he's going to be tough anyway. He killed you with 4 CA's. Spamming "Pet Attack" with a mage pet is not going to save you from a brigand.</p><p>Like I said before, if he says he's using macros, then all he is doing is clumping his common attacks into the same button. It is not a "Magic Macro" that does everything for him automatiically. Like I said, I would bet he repeatedly hits the button instead of waiting for the Queue to slowly switch to the next combat art.</p>

dnice74
03-28-2007, 01:20 AM
<cite>Ibunubi wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>dnice74 wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="color: #00cc00">Errrr....there was nothing that I needed to "chill" about. He's a known troll, and everything I said about him is true. And why are you lumping in what I said about Bozo to what I said to Fir? Stick to the topic and stop repeating yourself like a parrot; I'm not interested in lectures or your opinion of me. </span><p><span style="color: #00cc00">I posted a log. Why don't you go look at it, look at my gear, and tell me how dying in 2.5 seconds (or a group of 3 dying in 12-15) is balanced?</span></p></blockquote><p>I saw the log. I see a conjuror who got killed by a brigand. It doesn't matter whether you have fabled or not as a caster, you are prone to die to a scout, moreso if they get the jump. Dispatch, which he hit you with, will debuff your ~1500 mitigation down to ~300, that is not a lot protecting you. I see 4 CA's used by the brigand. There is no hack there.</p><p>If you want me to analyze how you died, I will without knowing you or the brigand. You had two seconds to click a Freedom of Mind because he hit you with the 4 second stun first. That is more than enough time to hit your instant-cast Stoneskin and/or cast something else and/or move before he rooted you. He hit you with Curse of the Vile, so he has PvP sword and I'm guessing a near, if not, full set of gear, so he's going to be tough anyway. He killed you with 4 CA's. Spamming "Pet Attack" with a mage pet is not going to save you from a brigand.</p><p>Like I said before, if he says he's using macros, then all he is doing is clumping his common attacks into the same button. It is not a "Magic Macro" that does everything for him automatiically. Like I said, I would bet he repeatedly hits the button instead of waiting for the Queue to slowly switch to the next combat art.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00">You make it sound so simple. Do you have a T7 conj? Highly doubt it. Anti-stun potions DO help, no question. This particular brig is well-geared, but I'm not wearing crap, either. I have all cast times lowered thru AA's....throw a few spells in there if it makes you happy. Let me tell you how this really works:</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">I hit anti-stun potion, he snares me. Root, I'm dead. SS does NOT keep you alive very long vs. melee. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">I hit anti-stun potion, sprint away, they have in-combat run speed. They catch up and kill me. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">I hit stun, stoneskin, get range, get a stun or snare off, go to work. They can hit from range for 300+ a pop, by this time the stun potion wears off, I get snared, rooted, whatever. Dead. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">I have almost 1600 kills to go with my 1000 deaths. Don't let that mislead you - probably 3-400 of those came from being decapped, ht'd, or whatever. Lots of skill there! Powerleveled to 70, ignored pvp just to get to T7. I'd get ganked a lot. Also, I like to solo and I honestly don't care about dying. Died 5 times tonight trying to get some 1v1 and also to get this log. Anyway - you aren't talking to some green noob. The only chance I have against a brigand is if I have a good 5-6 seconds when I see them coming, drop snare, stun, ss, BA, anti-stun....and then they get in close and can still kill me. Most of the time I have to rely on just clicking auto-attack and praying a stun works, but even with that and plane-shift, I still can't kill them quick enough. One resisted snare or stun and that's it. I never ever resist MA, thanks.  Brigands can <u>always</u> get in close. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">The broken record continues. These particular "invinci-brigands" may or may not be hacking (this one in particular is a real piece of work). But either way, something is wrong here, and I really wish people would lay off the ridiculous "l2p" and "get a group" nonsense - I did mention that some of them can cut through 2-3 people in seconds, right? You did read Frog's post, right?</span> </p>

Ibunubi
03-28-2007, 01:40 AM
I read Frog's post about the 3 people dying. I would seriously hope there was some extra circumstances. Without a log, nothing can be said but "It sounds like a nice story." I still stand by what I say.

Groma
03-28-2007, 04:03 AM
Taking on a grp of people is entirely circumstantial.  Im a warlock, and i've taken out a 6 man group of fairly well equipped people by myself before.  Yes, its only happened once, and to be honest i think the reason it went down the way it did was because they were so shocked that i stuck around to fight, they thought they could just mash a few buttons and i was gonna die. As for the brig in question, he has all 7 pieces of pvp armor, full adornments, all of his spells M1.  He stunts an Overseer title, so its obvious that he has some pvp experience.  I fight him all the time, because he sits in the same spot day in and day out waiting for people to come along and attack him, with an easy getaway when a full group comes strolling in.  He knows his class very well, i've gone 1v1 with him many times, and only 2 times have i won.  I'm also a raid geared warlock, all master 1's, with a crapload of pvp experience under my belt.  Wreakin, i will agree with you, it absolutely blows being killed before you had a chance to finish casting a root, even when you were on your toes, because it happens to me all the time.  However, you need to accept the fact that you wear cloth and are an easy target.  Had he used those CAs against a comparably equipped Zerker, there is not a doubt in my mind he would have had his [Removed for Content] handed to him, because i've seen Zerke do it to brigs day in and day out.  Roll with a group, find a taunter, and watch how fast he dies when he cannot select his targets, its a magical difference.

Groma
03-28-2007, 04:05 AM
<cite>Ibunubi wrote:</cite><blockquote>I read Frog's post about the 3 people dying. I would seriously hope there was some extra circumstances. Without a log, nothing can be said but "It sounds like a nice story." I still stand by what I say.</blockquote>This is a guy who got all 6 pieces of his pvp gear by killing chinese bot farmers in KoS, because he tends to run away whenever the fame train comes passing thru.  I would also love to know the name of this "raid geared" fury you were rolling with, cause last time i checked Qeynos/Vox there really wasn't much in the way of talented druids available.  And if you say Prest, i'm just going to [Removed for Content] and stay away from this thread, because i've seen him die to bot farmers enough in Barren sky to get an idea of how talented he is.

Firam
03-28-2007, 06:50 AM
<cite>dnice74 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Let me tell you how this really works:</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">I hit anti-stun potion, he snares me. Root, I'm dead. SS does NOT keep you alive very long vs. melee. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">I hit anti-stun potion, sprint away, they have in-combat run speed. They catch up and kill me. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">I hit stun, stoneskin, get range, get a stun or snare off, go to work. They can hit from range for 300+ a pop, by this time the stun potion wears off, I get snared, rooted, whatever. Dead. </span></p></blockquote> There's no need to tell a bunch of experienced players how basic PvP mechanics work.  We already tried explaining the situation to you with basic mechanics and exact numbers, and you're still calling it a probable "hack".   You're impressing no one here.  Maybe I can lay out the exact method that enchanters use to completely own me (or most other classes) if they don't get killed right away.  Well-played enchanters scare me.  I don't cry nerf or "OP" though, I find ways to deal with it.  Sometimes evasion is the way.  I accept the fact that I won't be able to win most of the time against certain classes in a 1v1 matchup.  You can't seem to accomplish this; you're so stuck on the fact that one class happens to be built well to kill your archetype that you'll start in with the malicious forum trolling to try to change it.  If you think SOE is going to completely revamp a CA (or set of CA's) that has been around, scrutinized by devs, and untouched since <i>Desert of Flames</i> for chrissake, you're wrong.  No one else has come to these forums crying "cheater! hack!" on this (or at least insisting, after ample evidence has been presented to the contrary, that it's still some kind of hack).  dnice74 wrote: <blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00">I have almost 1600 kills to go with my 1000 deaths. Don't let that mislead you - probably 3-400 of those came from being decapped, ht'd, or whatever. Lots of skill there! Powerleveled to 70, ignored pvp just to get to T7. I'd get ganked a lot. Also, I like to solo and I honestly don't care about dying. Died 5 times tonight trying to get some 1v1 and also to get this log. Anyway - you aren't talking to some green noob. The only chance I have against a brigand is if I have a good 5-6 seconds when I see them coming, drop snare, stun, ss, BA, anti-stun....and then they get in close and can still kill me. Most of the time I have to rely on just clicking auto-attack and praying a stun works, but even with that and plane-shift, I still can't kill them quick enough. One resisted snare or stun and that's it. I never ever resist MA, thanks.  Brigands can <u>always</u> get in close. </span></p></blockquote> You never resist MA because it's a combat art (with a high chance to land) and you're a mage.  You don't have a defensive stance to drastically increase your Defense/Parry/Block (you don't even have block, which is part of the reason), and you probably don't have a bunch of gear and adornments targeted towards that either.  Don't compare apples to oranges.  My magical resist based arts (i.e. snares) are resisted a <i>ton</i>, regardless of the actual resists of the target.  There's a reason melee arts land more than spells... if spells hit almost every time casters would annihilate everyone due to the fact that spells, by themselves, tend to be more powerful on a 1 for 1 comparison to arts.  Imagine a wizard whose nukes landed 95% of the time.  That's pretty scary.  With every point you try to  make you reinforce the image of a L70 player who doesn't, for some reason (ignorance or stubbornness), grasp the basic concepts of the game. (Note: even in defensive stance, with a full AA defensive spec, and equipment set up towards defense, my brigand gets torn up by another melee class who's in offensive stance.) dnice74 wrote: <blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00">The broken record continues. These particular "invinci-brigands" may or may not be hacking (this one in particular is a real piece of work). But either way, something is wrong here, and I really wish people would lay off the ridiculous "l2p" and "get a group" nonsense - I did mention that some of them can cut through 2-3 people in seconds, right? You did read Frog's post, right?</span> </p></blockquote> 1.  For the last time, they aren't "hacking".  This one you mentioned is in full PvP/fabled gear, and has extensive experience and knowledge of his class's weaknesses and strengths.   Dumb brigands die to mages.  Smart, well geared brigands don't.  Good luck convincing SOE (or the majority of the playerbase) that that's not how it's supposed to be.  Good luck indeed. =) 2.  We're not telling you to L2P.  We're telling you to stop being so narrow minded and look at game balance the way the rest of the world does.  You have a very narrow, close-minded view of what should and shouldn't happen in PvP.  <b>You have never opened your eyes to the reality of this game and played your class in a truly effective manner.  That might *gasp* mean duoing, grouping, or accepting that R-P-S exists in 1v1 and you'll never, ever change that fact.</b> 3.  I'm still exxtremely leery of that "3 fabled people die in seconds" story.  I know my CA cooldowns, I know what goes into attacking a prepared group, and I know there's something (or things) that aren't be told here.  There's no way a brigand has the DPS and survivability to run up to a group of 3 and tear them all down.  Were they engaged with a ^^^ or 2 when he ran in?  Then sure, you can wait a bit, tear whoever's acting as the tank down and let the mob or mobs assist with the rest of the carnage.  Many classes can do that though, some even more effectively than brigands. The bottom line here is that you're trolling for a nerf that'll never happen.  You have some bad experiences in game against a class that you're destined to have bad experiences with >50% of the time, and that doesn't sit well with you.  You've also done so much to establish a <b>lack</b> of credibility for yourself that you're unlikely to even win the hearts of the majority of players who might have sided with you (other solo mages, for instance).  I'd offer you some advice on how to deal with your problems, but I'm pretty sure you won't like it, and won't listen to it anyway.  So, good luck to you, and may you one day open your mind to the world that really does exist around you.

Valdar
03-28-2007, 10:48 AM
<cite>Firamas wrote:</cite><blockquote>Imagine a wizard whose nukes landed 95% of the time.  That's pretty scary.  </blockquote>Best point of the whole post. And imo wizards (and all mages) should be scary, unlike the walking token chests they are now.

Bozidar
03-28-2007, 11:18 AM
<cite>Valdar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Firamas wrote:</cite><blockquote>Imagine a wizard whose nukes landed 95% of the time.  That's pretty scary.  </blockquote>Best point of the whole post. And imo wizards (and all mages) should be scary, unlike the walking token chests they are now.</blockquote> if resists were right in T7 (as in comperable to other tiers) then they would be, especially if say.. in a group.. with a tank to taunt, and a healer to heal..

dnice74
03-28-2007, 05:52 PM
<cite>Ibunubi wrote:</cite><blockquote>I read Frog's post about the 3 people dying. I would seriously hope there was some extra circumstances. Without a log, nothing can be said but "It sounds like a nice story." I still stand by what I say.</blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00">It did happen, and I wish you'd stop with your constant insinuations that we are lying. what do I have to gain by lying? In what language would you like to hear that this thread isn't a bitchfest against brigands and that I feel there is a balance issue or exploit/hack here?</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">I will tell you how it went: We were not working as a group, they are not super-geared, and I was taken out in 2 seconds first, as always. With that said, we are not running treasured and mc by any means, and for one toon to run through 3 in that amount of time is ridiculous. Not impossible, but ridiculous. I actually have less problem with that example than I do Frog's. Pay attention. Frog's post wasn't about 3 people dying, it was about he and Prestion taking on Famine alone. Tell me why a decently-geared fury has a hard time keeping a swash up (very well geared) against his counterpart? Seriously, Frog is about 2-3 pieces away from Famine - there is not enough difference to justify Famine taking both of them down. Hell, maybe he's using an armor/regen hack and not an attack hack, I don't know. However, I'm sure people are just going to ignore this and call him a liar, so whatever. </span></p>

dnice74
03-28-2007, 05:53 PM
<cite>Gromann wrote:</cite><blockquote>Taking on a grp of people is entirely circumstantial.  Im a warlock, and i've taken out a 6 man group of fairly well equipped people by myself before.  Yes, its only happened once, and to be honest i think the reason it went down the way it did was because they were so shocked that i stuck around to fight, they thought they could just mash a few buttons and i was gonna die. As for the brig in question, he has all 7 pieces of pvp armor, full adornments, all of his spells M1.  He stunts an Overseer title, so its obvious that he has some pvp experience.  I fight him all the time, because he sits in the same spot day in and day out waiting for people to come along and attack him, with an easy getaway when a full group comes strolling in.  He knows his class very well, i've gone 1v1 with him many times, and only 2 times have i won.  I'm also a raid geared warlock, all master 1's, with a crapload of pvp experience under my belt.  Wreakin, i will agree with you, it absolutely blows being killed before you had a chance to finish casting a root, even when you were on your toes, because it happens to me all the time.  However, you need to accept the fact that you wear cloth and are an easy target.  Had he used those CAs against a comparably equipped Zerker, there is not a doubt in my mind he would have had his [I cannot control my vocabulary] handed to him, because i've seen Zerke do it to brigs day in and day out.  Roll with a group, find a taunter, and watch how fast he dies when he cannot select his targets, its a magical difference. </blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00">The 3-1 fight with Famine was somewhat circumstantial, but I've spoken to that already. It happens, albeit rarely. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">This doesn't change the fact that many brigands using this combo/hack/enchanted tulip farm can do the exact same thing. This isn't the anti-Famine thread; I have seen several other brigs do this. One of them hasn't been on now for a long time, and wasn't even remotely close to geared like Famine, but he was doing the exact same thing. But I guess no one wants to debate things they don't have an answer for. This is one reason why I still think it might be a hack. Do people really think that no hacks exist? </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Yes, he is good, his gear rocks, he could be Overseer if he wanted to be cheap(er than he is), he walks old ladies across the street, smells like xegonberries, blah blah. I want you all to understand something - I want him to be good. I want him to be extremely tough, because I want to have my toon be even more of a badass when I get the next pieces of gear I'm working on. But what he does to people now isn't tough, it's crazy. I have never seen a melee go through someone like that, and I have fought the very best melee on the server. What is the point of fighting someone when you are going to lose 90% of the time, and dozens of that class are rolling around? I don't understand how another cloth class can just say "eh whatever scouts kill me" and wait for the next spanking. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">I've harped enough about the hacking, so let's shift into a melee vs. cloth issue for a moment. Here's the problem - I'm only about 5-6 pieces away from being as well geared, I have a ton of AA, know my class, etc. You're probably the best geared warlock on the server, you've beaten him twice. I'm one of the best geared conjurors(it's close with one or two others), I've beaten him (some brigands I haven't beaten at all) once out of about 50 times. I'll have at least another 2-3 pieces of fabled in a month or so and probably be within 10% of these uber-brigands gear-wise; and I guarantee you it's not going to make a bit of difference. That isn't balanced to me. What is the point of getting gear? I don't want to lie down and lick myself like some of you do, apparently. I guess there's nothing more to say, because you'd all like to go back and forth forever on how r-p-s is legit. I don't think it is; I think every class should have a shot at every other. If the devs didn't agree with me to at least SOME extent, there would never be any nerfs, would there? This whole "clothies are just gonna die get used to it" bs makes me ill. </span></p>

dnice74
03-28-2007, 05:54 PM
<cite>Gromann wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ibunubi wrote:</cite><blockquote>I read Frog's post about the 3 people dying. I would seriously hope there was some extra circumstances. Without a log, nothing can be said but "It sounds like a nice story." I still stand by what I say.</blockquote>This is a guy who got all 6 pieces of his pvp gear by killing chinese bot farmers in KoS, because he tends to run away whenever the fame train comes passing thru.  I would also love to know the name of this "raid geared" fury you were rolling with, cause last time i checked Qeynos/Vox there really wasn't much in the way of talented druids available.  And if you say Prest, i'm just going to [Removed for Content] and stay away from this thread, because i've seen him die to bot farmers enough in Barren sky to get an idea of how talented he is. </blockquote> <p><span style="color: #00cc00">I don't get you, man. You start off as a punk, post two semi-rational paragraphs, and then get back to the bs flame-bait comments. You sound like a bi-polar 16 year old. Like I said before - you have some nice people in your guild; why they put up with you is beyond me. Is (sub-par)DPS that hard to come by when you're exiled? Like I said to Bozo - I'm terrible with ignoring trolls, but consider the above paragraphs my last intelligent response to you unless you have something useful to add. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">I was going to burn you to a crisp, but I'll let that paragraph stand as a response to you. You are just absolutely drooling all over yourself in your childish attempt to get a guild vs. guild flame war thing going, and I won't give you what you so desperately want. Wrong thread, wrong section, not interested.</span></p>

dnice74
03-28-2007, 05:57 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>No need to look, if I can't kill you if I tried, how come you dont want to meet pony boy?  Come on, meet me somewhere nice and quiet, and I'll show you whats up.  And greeen is no longer in your guild, he is in the holding area to be sold for like 20 bucks, been quite a few since I've been on your vent...so who are you and where can we meet, I'll help you with your research by smashing your face in.</blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Logged in my fp toon last night....walked right up to you in the harbor. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Your gear is inferior -  I won't bother to look you up again. A fight between us would be pointless, but feel free to look me up when you can hang. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Bye bye, don't bother responding, nothing more to say to you. Trolls I can't ignore, delusional people I can. </span> </p>

Bozidar
03-28-2007, 06:08 PM
<cite>dnice74 wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>No need to look, if I can't kill you if I tried, how come you dont want to meet pony boy?  Come on, meet me somewhere nice and quiet, and I'll show you whats up.  And greeen is no longer in your guild, he is in the holding area to be sold for like 20 bucks, been quite a few since I've been on your vent...so who are you and where can we meet, I'll help you with your research by smashing your face in.</blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Logged in my fp toon last night....walked right up to you in the harbor. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Your gear is inferior -  I won't bother to look you up again. A fight between us would be pointless, but feel free to look me up when you can hang. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Bye bye, don't bother responding, nothing more to say to you. Trolls I can't ignore, delusional people I can. </span> </p></blockquote> <img src="http://www.historyforkids.org/learn/economy/pictures/chicken.jpg" border="0">

Greeen-_-Ranger
03-28-2007, 06:15 PM
So you wont fight me in my inferior gear?  I suppose you can beat Zerke and Shook easily?  Because i've done it a few levels ago.  I'm calling you out in my 'inferior' gear and just over 5.3k hp.  Warn you, my inferior gear still has me in all green stats, so lets play doll face.

Ameniel
03-28-2007, 06:19 PM
<p>OP: There is no hack...everything that brig did, according to the combat log you posted, is legit.</p><p>Brigand abilities have been reviewed and nerfed many times by SoE. The last of these being at the time EoF came out, so please enough with the 'zomg brigs r overpowered' crap...</p><p>Guess which class has even more powerful abilities yet has not ever been looked into or nerfed? That's right...swashbucklers. </p><p>OP: Have you ever, through exiles, had the chance to fight or see what swashbucklers are capable of? Ever heard of en garde & inspiration? Ever see t7 swash pvp videos where seriously every single fight begins with them pressing en garde followed by inspiration & then kicking back & clicking maybe a few more CAs? Watching them take 2-3 even con toons? And, not to mention in the new AA trees they get extra reach?....you know...cause what they had before was not enough, apparently....</p><p>You complained about assassins(decap) at one point apparently, now complaining about brigands...but do you realize that the Q counterparts(swash, ranger) can put out some crazy dps and probably take you out just as fast and maybe faster than brigs/assassins can? This point was brought up by other posters yet I didn't see you respond at all to these. </p><p>And let's not forget...a brig may be able to burn down a caster fast, but do you realize a swash can burn down tanks and healers that fast? Yeah you heard right, they can burn down brawlers, warriors, etc with just a few abilities. But I'm sure that's very balanced to you. </p><p>Last of all....maybe that brig could take out a mage that fast, but guarantee you him going up against a zerker or SK(thru exile) or a good healer would be a different story. Right now, many of the top classes in solo pvp at all tiers and especially t7 are SKs, warden/furies, swashes....maybe some others I'm missing, but brig are not up there with those classes imo as far as dominance in solo play. </p>

Ibunubi
03-28-2007, 06:28 PM
<cite>dnice74 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ibunubi wrote:</cite><blockquote>I read Frog's post about the 3 people dying. I would seriously hope there was some extra circumstances. Without a log, nothing can be said but "It sounds like a nice story." I still stand by what I say.</blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00">It did happen, and I wish you'd stop with your constant insinuations that we are lying. what do I have to gain by lying? In what language would you like to hear that this thread isn't a [I cannot control my vocabulary] against brigands and that I feel there is a balance issue or exploit/hack here?</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">I will tell you how it went: We were not working as a group, they are not super-geared, and I was taken out in 2 seconds first, as always. With that said, we are not running treasured and mc by any means, and for one toon to run through 3 in that amount of time is ridiculous. Not impossible, but ridiculous. I actually have less problem with that example than I do Frog's. Pay attention. Frog's post wasn't about 3 people dying, it was about he and Prestion taking on Famine alone. Tell me why a decently-geared fury has a hard time keeping a swash up (very well geared) against his counterpart? Seriously, Frog is about 2-3 pieces away from Famine - there is not enough difference to justify Famine taking both of them down. Hell, maybe he's using an armor/regen hack and not an attack hack, I don't know. However, I'm sure people are just going to ignore this and call him a liar, so whatever. </span></p> </blockquote><p>Not saying you're lying. I believe it happened, and like I said, I hope for the victimized group's sake that it was not a straight-up fight. I'm saying we can't believe your "call of exploiting" when all you give are stories. Normally, if it's going to be a tough fight, the fury would Pact around so they aren't locked down and can run out of range. I mean, if the swashbuckler was going to die... I'm surprised he didn't activate his Belt of Gateways, En Garde, and taunt. </p>

Firam
03-28-2007, 06:39 PM
<cite>Ameniel wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>OP: There is no hack...everything that brig did, according to the combat log you posted, is legit.</p><p>Brigand abilities have been reviewed and nerfed many times by SoE. The last of these being at the time EoF came out, so please enough with the 'zomg brigs r overpowered' crap...</p><p>Guess which class has even more powerful abilities yet has not ever been looked into or nerfed? That's right...swashbucklers. </p><p>OP: Have you ever, through exiles, had the chance to fight or see what swashbucklers are capable of? Ever heard of en garde & inspiration? Ever see t7 swash pvp videos where seriously every single fight begins with them pressing en garde followed by inspiration & then kicking back & clicking maybe a few more CAs? Watching them take 2-3 even con toons? And, not to mention in the new AA trees they get extra reach?....you know...cause what they had before was not enough, apparently....</p><p>You complained about assassins(decap) at one point apparently, now complaining about brigands...but do you realize that the Q counterparts(swash, ranger) can put out some crazy dps and probably take you out just as fast and maybe faster than brigs/assassins can? This point was brought up by other posters yet I didn't see you respond at all to these. </p><p>And let's not forget...a brig may be able to burn down a caster fast, but do you realize a swash can burn down tanks and healers that fast? Yeah you heard right, they can burn down brawlers, warriors, etc with just a few abilities. But I'm sure that's very balanced to you. </p><p>Last of all....maybe that brig could take out a mage that fast, but guarantee you him going up against a zerker or SK(thru exile) or a good healer would be a different story. Right now, many of the top classes in solo pvp at all tiers and especially t7 are SKs, warden/furies, swashes....maybe some others I'm missing, but brig are not up there with those classes imo as far as dominance in solo play. </p></blockquote>All valid points.  All of them stated multiple times before in this thread.  However, they are directed at someone who won't listen.  Dnice is not here to contribute to valid discussion on PvP mechanics, his presence in this thread is intended to start a troll war which he will "win" (by default) by attrition.  When everyone else has said their piece, given up on his stubbornness, and moved on, he'll still be here screaming "HACK! OP!" until he finds 1 or 2 people that'll listen, and, in their ignorance, agree.  And thus, in some twisted, pathetic, lonely way, he'll feel validated. He's not really upset about brigands, or scouts in general, he's upset that his class has a weakness that he can't overcome with skill or gear alone.  He's upset that the mechanics don't favor him in this case.  He's upset about something that <i>deep down</i> he knows he cannot change, and that fuels his adolescent rage even more. It took me 7 pages to realize that he'll never stop trumpeting his views, regardless of the amount of evidence, logic, and public opinion speaking out against him.  He's so wrapped up in his little conjuror fantasy world that he can't allow logic and reason through right now... it's time to scream to vent his frustrations, even if he's screaming at the wrong people about the wrong things. It's really quite sad.  I feel sad after reading his posts.  I do.  =/

Greeen-_-Ranger
03-28-2007, 08:05 PM
I was in the same guild with this fool and gave him people he probaly pvp's with DAILY to ask about me...I dont hack, he admits I have lesser gear, I'm calling him out to show him simply, that brigands own casters.  But he doesn't want to meet because he claims I wont be a problem?  What exactly is his complaint then?  If brigands as a whole are overpowered, why not meet one and 'own' my face?  you say we are overpowered, and a day later so that I would be no problem...I have much respect for Reckoning they are tough, but yea i've taken a few down.  I've also duo'd with my girlfriend Apeach against a few of you folks including greven and friends.  So...if im no threat, why did we own your face in?  Come on now...fight me punk.

Captain Apple Darkberry
03-28-2007, 08:13 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>...Come on now...fight me punk.</blockquote><span style="color: #ff3300">Did anyone else read this with a Clint Eastwood voice...?</span>

Greeen-_-Ranger
03-28-2007, 08:15 PM
Go ahead punk...ROFL nice C.A.D, nice didn't even notice that...but your right, now that I have actually said it out loud, it does sound a bit like a bad clint eastwood pun.

Groma
03-28-2007, 08:22 PM
You see Wreakin, thats where you don't seem to understand things.  I pvp every day, i run into you, and prestion all the time, you have never won a fight.  Sure, we typically outnumber you, but i can think of a number of times where i landed at whisperwind, and killed the both of you before my group touched down.  You have done nothing constructive by this post, and tried to manipulate your nerf cry into a post asking for balance, but if you would pull your head out of your [Removed for Content] you would understand that when it comes to scouts versus mages, it is balanced.  Mages can and will kill anyone out there so long as their opponent does not close the gap, scouts were designed to take out support classes and mages, end of story.  My shot at Prest? He is, at least in every pvp encounter i have seen him participate in, a sub-par healer yet someone mentions him like he is spectacular and noone should be able to kill a swashy with him behind the heals.  The swashy mentioned brags about 6 of 7 pieces of pvp gear, yet i sat there and watched him hide behind a rock on Halls of Fate isle for the first 4 or 5 pieces from farming bots.  You don't get good at pvp from farming bots, sorry to burst that bubble.  If you get your rocks off trying to call me a little kid who wants to do nothing more than flame people then by all means do so, but anyone who cares to take the time can read thru my 900ish posts and see that everything you would claim as a flame is actually an honest opinion of how things are.  I tell it like it is, and wont sugarcoat it or cry for nerfs.  Deal with it.

Greeen-_-Ranger
03-28-2007, 08:25 PM
Wait...Gromann?  That's Wreakin complaining?  ROFLMAO I've already killed him.

Groma
03-28-2007, 08:49 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>Wait...Gromann?  That's Wreakin complaining?  ROFLMAO I've already killed him.</blockquote>Yeah, it speaks bounds when every time someone new finds out who the nerf cry is coming from all they do is laugh.

Greeen-_-Ranger
03-28-2007, 08:53 PM
I just hope clown shoes will back his claim that he can wipe me.  I really, really, really do.  Because I've got a nasty little suprise for him (I have double up to).

Lazyfr
03-28-2007, 10:47 PM
<p>Wow, </p><p>   You guys are very very good at the mud slinging... First, Gromann, somehow, in the middle of hiding behind a rock, I managed to have the same title as the brigand I was speaking of... all solo... And yes, when the "fame train" starts to come at me, I do head the other way, cause it's 6v1... The other night, I managed to pick off one of <b>your</b> scouts that was rushing me out in front of your raid, but then it was a RaidX2vsMe. And yes, I managed to get my Dread title off that encounter. Very good mud slinging though. </p><p>   Now to Amirus... Amazing that you can talk since you tried to run from a number of our guildies this morning. You say you've taken down Zerke and all these big names, but you weren't doing to hot this morning... Maybe an "off morning," but please don't talk smack until you've actually shown you can fight. I don't care if the people you PVPed with at the lower lvls can say you're a good PVPer, because in the next sentance you are ripping them apart and saying how bad they suck... </p><p>    That's all the mud I will sling. <b>Now to the reason of this post</b>... Managed to get a screen shot of combat log. I'm new to the whole forum thing. How do I post a pic? Also, is there a way to timestamp it? Looking at the shot, this player did not do a double up, just managed to cast incredibly fast... all different spells. I'm still puzzled.</p><p>Sorry for the mud slinging. You guys slung well enough to get a response. Congrats.</p><p>Take care guys,</p><p>Lazyfrog</p>

Lazyfr
03-28-2007, 11:00 PM
<p>BTW Gromann,</p><p>     Isn't that the same title you have.... Just wanted some clarification how someone who hit 70 with a slayer title managed to have the same title as someone so experienced as yourself... Oh, right, it was because I hid behind a rock... Na, probably because I ALWAYS run in groups(nope, that's you and your guildies, as you admitted in the above post)... Must have found success with the rock...</p><p>Have a great night guys,</p><p>Lazyfrog</p>

Ibunubi
03-28-2007, 11:15 PM
Lazyfrog wrote: <blockquote><p><span style="font-size: medium">That's all the mud I will sling</span>. <b>Now to the reason of this post</b>... Managed to get a screen shot of combat log. I'm new to the whole forum thing. How do I post a pic? Also, is there a way to timestamp it? Looking at the shot, this player did not do a double up, just managed to cast incredibly fast... all different spells. I'm still puzzled.</p><p>Sorry for the mud slinging. You guys slung well enough to get a response. Congrats.</p><p>Take care guys,</p><p>Lazyfrog</p></blockquote><p>"That's all the mud I will sling." ? I see a second post~ It's pretty easy to not respond to flame bait.</p><p>Go to photobucket or imageshack, upload the image. You can't timestamp it unless you already had that option for chat (which you didn't) so it would only be available from your log, which it seems you don't have one.</p>

Groma
03-28-2007, 11:38 PM
<cite>Lazyfrog wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>BTW Gromann,</p><p>     Isn't that the same title you have.... Just wanted some clarification how someone who hit 70 with a slayer title managed to have the same title as someone so experienced as yourself... Oh, right, it was because I hid behind a rock... Na, probably because I ALWAYS run in groups(nope, that's you and your guildies, as you admitted in the above post)... Must have found success with the rock...</p><p>Have a great night guys,</p><p>Lazyfrog</p></blockquote>Lets not forget Lazy, that i was borderline general once, then willingly gave it up, along with 3 pieces of pvp gear, to exile for better pvp and have since gotten General in 2 months using old KoS raid/Heroic gear.  I still mop the floor with most of you solo, i've proved it time and time again.

Lazyfr
03-28-2007, 11:58 PM
<p>I'm well aware of that, and the fact that I hit 70 shortly after you guys exiled.... I'm just saying if I can get to where you are going purely solo, and you're always grouped, what does that say... No question, I respect your guys in PVP for sure. I've fought enough of them and talked with enough of them. I have a lot of respect for many of the guys in your guild. Strangely enough, only seen you up PVPing a couple times...</p><p>And no question about me killing farmers... I'm trying to get this gear as fast as I can, but I also solo enough non-farmers that I have gotten the Dread title solo. And yes, when I see a full group or raid coming at me when I'm solo, you better believe I will head the other direction.</p><p>Anyways, Here's the latest screenshot. Don't have any time stamps. Someone said you can measure the timeframe by the delay on their weopon. He has the Poison Etched Sardonic Blade... delay is 2.0 seconds with probably 30 haste due to armor. His STR is 430, INT 91. My Mitigation is at 49% and 52.3% avoidance... I had enough time to hit Freedom of Mind Potion and Evac.... Just wanted to see if this is legit. If so, I'll let it go...</p><p>Thanks for your help Guys,</p><p>Lazyfrog</p><p><img src="http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t231/ohiosh345804/EQ2_00001.jpg" border="0"></p>

Ibunubi
03-29-2007, 12:22 AM
<p>Deceitful Blow, --Double attack--, Dispatch, --Double attack--, Restrain, Malicious Assault, --Melee--, Double Up, Revoke (has to be in front of you for Revoke), and Flashy Throw (this was when you were running?)</p><p>I, at least, see what his opening combination is. Judging by when they auto-attack is not exactly a good judge because I think I remember most times if you have a Combat Art queued you won't get an auto-attack in. Not to mention at the end, it looked like you started running from the melee.</p><p>BTW -- How long did it take you, as a Swashbuckler with Inspiration, to burn that blue Necromancer named Storm? Right...</p>

dnice74
03-29-2007, 12:28 AM
<cite>Firamas wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>dnice74 wrote:</cite><blockquote></blockquote><p> There's no need to tell a bunch of experienced players how basic PvP mechanics work.  We already tried explaining the situation to you with basic mechanics and exact numbers, and you're still calling it a probable "hack".   You're impressing no one here.  Maybe I can lay out the exact method that enchanters use to completely own me (or most other classes) if they don't get killed right away.  Well-played enchanters scare me.  I don't cry nerf or "OP" though, I find ways to deal with it.  Sometimes evasion is the way.  I accept the fact that I won't be able to win most of the time against certain classes in a 1v1 matchup.  You can't seem to accomplish this; you're so stuck on the fact that one class happens to be built well to kill your archetype that you'll start in with the malicious forum trolling to try to change it.  If you think SOE is going to completely revamp a CA (or set of CA's) that has been around, scrutinized by devs, and untouched since <i>Desert of Flames</i> for chrissake, you're wrong.  No one else has come to these forums crying "cheater! hack!" on this (or at least insisting, after ample evidence has been presented to the contrary, that it's still some kind of hack).  </p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">You're even more smug than I am, which is amusing. Keep thinking this is all about how I haven't found the magic answer yet. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Guess what? Just talked to yet another fp toon tonight from this thread who confirmed that Famine is indeed hacking. Sadly, I doubt he has any proof, either. Sad for you - I was starting to thing there might be an explanation for this, and that maybe he was just that well geared, but now I'm back to unshakable. I'm convinced the arguments I've made have been right. Here's the rub - you don't believe me, no one does. I have said 1000 times now that people I've suspected of using this hack who I have reported who have mysteriously disappeared. Call me a whiner, call me a baby, call me what you will. But I don't care. Actually, you should thank me. I also said 1000 times that brigands are quite killable when they are not using this thing. Now I could care less if they nerf you or not. </span>  dnice74 wrote: </p><blockquote></blockquote><p> You never resist MA because it's a combat art (with a high chance to land) and you're a mage.  You don't have a defensive stance to drastically increase your Defense/Parry/Block (you don't even have block, which is part of the reason), and you probably don't have a bunch of gear and adornments targeted towards that either.  Don't compare apples to oranges.  My magical resist based arts (i.e. snares) are resisted a <i>ton</i>, regardless of the actual resists of the target.  There's a reason melee arts land more than spells... if spells hit almost every time casters would annihilate everyone due to the fact that spells, by themselves, tend to be more powerful on a 1 for 1 comparison to arts.  Imagine a wizard whose nukes landed 95% of the time.  That's pretty scary.  With every point you try to  make you reinforce the image of a L70 player who doesn't, for some reason (ignorance or stubbornness), grasp the basic concepts of the game. (Note: even in defensive stance, with a full AA defensive spec, and equipment set up towards defense, my brigand gets torn up by another melee class who's in offensive stance.)</p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Blah blah, whatever, I don't know how to play my game or the class. Ok. There are less than 10 people I haven't taken down solo server-wide. Spare me your trite advice on how to play. </span> dnice74 wrote: </p><blockquote></blockquote><p> 1.  For the last time, they aren't "hacking".  This one you mentioned is in full PvP/fabled gear, and has extensive experience and knowledge of his class's weaknesses and strengths.   Dumb brigands die to mages.  Smart, well geared brigands don't.  Good luck convincing SOE (or the majority of the playerbase) that that's not how it's supposed to be.  Good luck indeed. =)</p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">We can agree to disagree. I'm done with it, because I have no proof and I have called enough attention to it. The devs and CS reps will be watching. </span> 2.  We're not telling you to L2P.  We're telling you to stop being so narrow minded and look at game balance the way the rest of the world does.  You have a very narrow, close-minded view of what should and shouldn't happen in PvP.  <b>You have never opened your eyes to the reality of this game and played your class in a truly effective manner.  That might *gasp* mean duoing, grouping, or accepting that R-P-S exists in 1v1 and you'll never, ever change that fact.</b></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">I'm glad I'm not debating with you anymore, because the only "reality" here is that you make more assumptions than Pfizer does pills. Do you play here? Do you? Do you know how many times I get told I am the best conj they have ever seen by fp's? Your cries of "open your mind, r-p-s, and get a group" are falling on deaf ears. We've debated this point, so stop repeating yourself....or don't, I'm done with you anyway. </span> 3.  I'm still exxtremely leery of that "3 fabled people die in seconds" story.  I know my CA cooldowns, I know what goes into attacking a prepared group, and I know there's something (or things) that aren't be told here.  There's no way a brigand has the DPS and survivability to run up to a group of 3 and tear them all down.  Were they engaged with a ^^^ or 2 when he ran in?  Then sure, you can wait a bit, tear whoever's acting as the tank down and let the mob or mobs assist with the rest of the carnage.  Many classes can do that though, some even more effectively than brigands.</p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">When they are hacking, toons can do pretty amazing things. </span> The bottom line here is that you're trolling for a nerf that'll never happen.  You have some bad experiences in game against a class that you're destined to have bad experiences with >50% of the time, and that doesn't sit well with you.  You've also done so much to establish a <b>lack</b> of credibility for yourself that you're unlikely to even win the hearts of the majority of players who might have sided with you (other solo mages, for instance).  I'd offer you some advice on how to deal with your problems, but I'm pretty sure you won't like it, and won't listen to it anyway.  So, good luck to you, and may you one day open your mind to the world that really does exist around you.</p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Ah, the broken record plays on. I know! Maybe if I try reverse psychology and agree with you! Yes, I am a whiner, please nerf brigands, there are no hacks here, and I have no idea how to play my class. Wait, I thought you weren't telling me to l2p? You can't even go a paragraph without contradicting yourself. You've done nothing but offer silly advice ever since I stepped into this thread. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Dude, you haven't even remotely considered one thing I've said. So good luck to you as well, may you one day learn to see past your own ego. You're going to need it. </span></p></blockquote>

dnice74
03-29-2007, 12:35 AM
<cite>Ameniel wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><strike>OP: There is no hack...everything that brig did, according to the combat log you posted, is legit.</strike></p><p><strike>Brigand abilities have been reviewed and nerfed many times by SoE. The last of these being at the time EoF came out, so please enough with the 'zomg brigs r overpowered' crap...</strike></p><p><strike>Guess which class has even more powerful abilities yet has not ever been looked into or nerfed? That's right...swashbucklers. </strike></p><p><strike>OP: Have you ever, through exiles, had the chance to fight or see what swashbucklers are capable of? Ever heard of en garde & inspiration? Ever see t7 swash pvp videos where seriously every single fight begins with them pressing en garde followed by inspiration & then kicking back & clicking maybe a few more CAs? Watching them take 2-3 even con toons? And, not to mention in the new AA trees they get extra reach?....you know...cause what they had before was not enough, apparently....</strike></p><p><strike>You complained about assassins(decap) at one point apparently, now complaining about brigands...but do you realize that the Q counterparts(swash, ranger) can put out some crazy dps and probably take you out just as fast and maybe faster than brigs/assassins can? This point was brought up by other posters yet I didn't see you respond at all to these. </strike></p><p><strike>And let's not forget...a brig may be able to burn down a caster fast, but do you realize a swash can burn down tanks and healers that fast? Yeah you heard right, they can burn down brawlers, warriors, etc with just a few abilities. But I'm sure that's very balanced to you. </strike></p><p><strike>Last of all....maybe that brig could take out a mage that fast, but guarantee you him going up against a zerker or SK(thru exile) or a good healer would be a different story. Right now, many of the top classes in solo pvp at all tiers and especially t7 are SKs, warden/furies, swashes....maybe some others I'm missing, but brig are not up there with those classes imo as far as dominance in solo play. </strike></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">I'm a brigand, please don't nerf me. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">a. there is a hack. i don't have proof, and perhaps i never will. i will sleep quite soundly knowing you think i'm a quack, however. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">b. brigands not using this are killable, even with the mighty sailwind/du line. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">c. we all know swashies are the fotm. if you want to [Removed for Content] about them, do it in another [Removed for Content] thread. stop trying to pass the buck. even without this, brigands are still op vs cloth, you all know it's true, and your denial is ludicrous. </span></p></blockquote>

Ibunubi
03-29-2007, 12:37 AM
I'll ask ... What are you thinking is the "brigand hack" ?

dnice74
03-29-2007, 12:49 AM
<cite>Firamas wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ameniel wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>OP: There is no hack...everything that brig did, according to the combat log you posted, is legit.</p><p>Brigand abilities have been reviewed and nerfed many times by SoE. The last of these being at the time EoF came out, so please enough with the 'zomg brigs r overpowered' crap...</p><p>Guess which class has even more powerful abilities yet has not ever been looked into or nerfed? That's right...swashbucklers. </p><p>OP: Have you ever, through exiles, had the chance to fight or see what swashbucklers are capable of? Ever heard of en garde & inspiration? Ever see t7 swash pvp videos where seriously every single fight begins with them pressing en garde followed by inspiration & then kicking back & clicking maybe a few more CAs? Watching them take 2-3 even con toons? And, not to mention in the new AA trees they get extra reach?....you know...cause what they had before was not enough, apparently....</p><p>You complained about assassins(decap) at one point apparently, now complaining about brigands...but do you realize that the Q counterparts(swash, ranger) can put out some crazy dps and probably take you out just as fast and maybe faster than brigs/assassins can? This point was brought up by other posters yet I didn't see you respond at all to these. </p><p>And let's not forget...a brig may be able to burn down a caster fast, but do you realize a swash can burn down tanks and healers that fast? Yeah you heard right, they can burn down brawlers, warriors, etc with just a few abilities. But I'm sure that's very balanced to you. </p><p>Last of all....maybe that brig could take out a mage that fast, but guarantee you him going up against a zerker or SK(thru exile) or a good healer would be a different story. Right now, many of the top classes in solo pvp at all tiers and especially t7 are SKs, warden/furies, swashes....maybe some others I'm missing, but brig are not up there with those classes imo as far as dominance in solo play. </p></blockquote>All valid points.  All of them stated multiple times before in this thread.  However, they are directed at someone who won't listen.  Dnice is not here to contribute to valid discussion on PvP mechanics, his presence in this thread is intended to start a troll war which he will "win" (by default) by attrition.  When everyone else has said their piece, given up on his stubbornness, and moved on, he'll still be here screaming "HACK! OP!" until he finds 1 or 2 people that'll listen, and, in their ignorance, agree.  And thus, in some twisted, pathetic, lonely way, he'll feel validated. He's not really upset about brigands, or scouts in general, he's upset that his class has a weakness that he can't overcome with skill or gear alone.  He's upset that the mechanics don't favor him in this case.  He's upset about something that <i>deep down</i> he knows he cannot change, and that fuels his adolescent rage even more. It took me 7 pages to realize that he'll never stop trumpeting his views, regardless of the amount of evidence, logic, and public opinion speaking out against him.  He's so wrapped up in his little conjuror fantasy world that he can't allow logic and reason through right now... it's time to scream to vent his frustrations, even if he's screaming at the wrong people about the wrong things. It's really quite sad.  I feel sad after reading his posts.  I do.  =/ </blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00">[Removed for Content], I knew you were in love with yourself, but this is sad. Please tell me where to purchase one of your crystal balls so that I may read others' minds as well. You know nothing about me, my thought processes, how I pvp, my favorite color, nothing. Just let it go already. Yes, you think I'm a whiner. We get it; your opinion is noted. If you are quite done, the little x in the upper right hand corner will solve your problems. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Oh wait, I just read the "little conjuror fantasy world" thing. Adolescent rage? r o f l. Oh crap, I'm going to wake up my roommate, and he sleeps in the other end of the apartment. Nevermind, please stick around. I can't wait to see what you come up with next. Am I also 400 lbs? Maybe I live in a trailer, covered in cheetos? Never kissed a girl? Please, please enlighten us as to what world I am trapped in. Save me! I need your guidance!</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">You are so utterly focused on making me out to be a hack (because you are so desperately afraid of a nerf) that you don't even realize how incredibly funny you sound. I have debated all points with you intelligently, and was actually starting to think I might be wrong. YOU are the one who doesn't listen. I keep running across more and more people who know this guy, know he hacks, and have had the same problems. Funny thing is, many of them are fp's.  </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">You are right about one thing, though. I won't stop. PS - your class is still op vs cloth, even without the hack. I've explained why. Go seek the answers, my son. </span> </p>

dnice74
03-29-2007, 01:06 AM
<cite>Gromann wrote:</cite><blockquote>You see Wreakin, thats where you don't seem to understand things.  I pvp every day, i run into you, and prestion all the time, you have never won a fight.  Sure, we typically outnumber you, but i can think of a number of times where i landed at whisperwind, and killed the both of you before my group touched down.  You have done nothing constructive by this post, and tried to manipulate your nerf cry into a post asking for balance, but if you would pull your head out of your [I cannot control my vocabulary] you would understand that when it comes to scouts versus mages, it is balanced.  Mages can and will kill anyone out there so long as their opponent does not close the gap, scouts were designed to take out support classes and mages, end of story.  My shot at Prest? He is, at least in every pvp encounter i have seen him participate in, a sub-par healer yet someone mentions him like he is spectacular and noone should be able to kill a swashy with him behind the heals.  The swashy mentioned brags about 6 of 7 pieces of pvp gear, yet i sat there and watched him hide behind a rock on Halls of Fate isle for the first 4 or 5 pieces from farming bots.  You don't get good at pvp from farming bots, sorry to burst that bubble.  If you get your rocks off trying to call me a little kid who wants to do nothing more than flame people then by all means do so, but anyone who cares to take the time can read thru my 900ish posts and see that everything you would claim as a flame is actually an honest opinion of how things are.  I tell it like it is, and wont sugarcoat it or cry for nerfs.  Deal with it. </blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Bromun, bromun, bromun. Lies are bad, tiger. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">a. you do not pvp every day. Shook, mith, zerke....they pvp every day. And if pvp has suddenly become "hide in a group with your friends and wait for people to hit the cloud platform at whisper so you can gank them to kingdom come", then indeed sir, you are a true Greek god of PvP.</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">b. I have seen you solo O N C E. That means one time. Or, one less than two times, in case you are really dense. You did win the fight - bravo! Sadly for you, this was well over 2 months ago, I had a whopping piece or two of pvp gear, and still burned through your manashield to get you down to 10%. Any time you're ready for a rematch, you know where to find me. Ask Shook or Eureka or Gokol or Zerke if I play fair. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">c. This thread was about a hack. I was starting to believe that I might have been wrong - many of you made convincing arguments. However, I have too many fp's telling me otherwise. So while I did lose focus in the thread, I'm rock-steady again. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">c. Scouts are balanced vs mages??? Holy crap, man; how do you look in a mirror? You just admitted that Famine always beats you and you have a similar level of gear. This is either because 1. he is hacking 2. you suck 3. scouts are not balanced. Now that was called logic, and you will not be able to weasel out of it - unless you choose to ignore the question, which is the norm here.  </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">d. Please stop lying. I don't want to [Removed for Content] myself, it has been a long time since that accident when I was 4, and I was tragically scarred. Thankfully, Ameniel is helping me....sorry, I digress. Frog didn't get all his pvp gear by sitting behind a rock, you simpleton. That would take about 8374659347432907 years, for one thing. Oh, wait, you are never out, so how would you know? And maybe I'm slow, but I don't know many bots with a champ-general title who could have given him dread. And if you honestly expect me to sit here and listen to you say that people should not kill bots because of honor or whatnot - the RP server is that way. Enjoy time with your freakish little buddies. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">e. Read through your 900 posts? I'd rather scrape off my dick with a brillo pad than listen to you monologue about how wonderful you are. Pass. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">I have become worse at avoiding trolls! (<span style="color: #ff0000">327</span>)</span> </p>

Ibunubi
03-29-2007, 01:07 AM
<cite>Ibunubi wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'll ask ... What are you thinking is the "brigand hack" ?</blockquote>

dnice74
03-29-2007, 01:10 AM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>I just hope clown shoes will back his claim that he can wipe me.  I really, really, really do.  Because I've got a nasty little suprise for him (I have double up to).</blockquote> <span style="color: #00cc00">And last but not least....I assume you are going to stop this nonsense? I'm willing to ignore your silly comments now that we've had a chance to talk online. </span>

Ibunubi
03-29-2007, 01:47 AM
<cite>Ibunubi wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ibunubi wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'll ask ... What are you thinking is the "brigand hack" ?</blockquote></blockquote>Maybe if I call him an idiot, he'll respond~

Lazyfr
03-29-2007, 07:51 AM
<p>Hey Ibunubi,</p><p>    Thanks for the response. I can see the combo too now... Didn't see where he was using the double up last night when I was looking at it. </p><p>    Yeah, with inspiration, I can take down clothies pretty quick unless they fear me, mez me, stun me, root me, put stoneskin up, or put mana shield on... It's a little tougher to get scouts or fighters... Bad thing is, it take 3-4 seconds to get all those buffs off, so I either have to initiate the attack, or try to kite for a bit to get it ready. If I am getting attacked by, let's say a brig in this case, there is no way to have time to get any buffs off... It is a pretty good comparison, powerful spell, probably geared more towards PVE due to the casting times involved...</p><p>     That said, I'll let my end of this go. Thanks for the help guys.... Keep slinging the mud : )</p><p> Lazyfrog</p>

Lazyfr
03-29-2007, 08:35 AM
<p>Gromann,</p><p>   You might want to ask SOE to update your EQ2Players profile... Last I checked on their site, you were a Dread... </p><p>Sorry if there was some confusion, </p><p>Lazyfrog</p>

stonebo
03-29-2007, 10:30 AM
<cite>Lazyfrog wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Hey Ibunubi,</p><p>    Thanks for the response. I can see the combo too now... Didn't see where he was using the double up last night when I was looking at it. </p><p>    Yeah, with inspiration, I can take down clothies pretty quick unless they fear me, mez me, stun me, root me, put stoneskin up, or put mana shield on... It's a little tougher to get scouts or fighters... Bad thing is, it take 3-4 seconds to get all those buffs off, so I either have to initiate the attack, or try to kite for a bit to get it ready. If I am getting attacked by, let's say a brig in this case, there is no way to have time to get any buffs off... It is a pretty good comparison, powerful spell, probably geared more towards PVE due to the casting times involved...</p><p>     That said, I'll let my end of this go. Thanks for the help guys.... Keep slinging the mud : )</p><p> Lazyfrog</p></blockquote><p> is this the whine about brigs and swashy thread? lol</p><p>yea i got pwn'd but this is the pure skill of a swash at its finest- Im pretty sure he wasnt even buffed when I first hit him</p><p>8 sec stifle and he gets stuff off still? I know he doesnt use potions so =P</p><p>pvp belt and inspiration for the win. I have 3200 Mit and yes I was in offensive stance =P</p><p>(1175169222)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:42 2007] You start fighting. (1175169223)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:43 2007] YOUR Contrived Weapon hits Lazyfrog for 438 piercing damage. (1175169223)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:43 2007] YOUR Noxious Venom critically hits Lazyfrog for 312 poison damage. (1175169223)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:43 2007] Your target is too far away!  Move closer! (1175169223)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:43 2007] Your target is too far away!  Move closer! (1175169223)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:43 2007] Your target is too far away!  Move closer! (1175169223)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:43 2007] Your target is too far away!  Move closer! (1175169224)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:44 2007] Your target is too far away!  Move closer! (1175169224)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:44 2007] Your target is too far away!  Move closer! (1175169224)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:44 2007] Your target is too far away!  Move closer! (1175169224)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:44 2007] Your target is too far away!  Move closer! (1175169224)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:44 2007] YOU try to pierce Lazyfrog, but miss. (1175169224)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:44 2007] YOU hit Lazyfrog for 73 slashing damage. (1175169224)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:44 2007] Your target is too far away!  Move closer! (1175169224)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:44 2007] Your target is too far away!  Move closer! (1175169224)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:44 2007] Your target is too far away!  Move closer! (1175169225)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:45 2007] YOU hit Lazyfrog for 102 slashing damage. (1175169226)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:46 2007] YOUR Masked Attack hits Lazyfrog for 351 piercing damage. (1175169226)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:46 2007] You stop fighting. (1175169227)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:47 2007] You start fighting. (1175169227)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:47 2007] The shadows dissapate from Cruoris. (1175169227)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:47 2007] YOUR Jugular hits Lazyfrog for 759 slashing damage. (1175169227)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:47 2007] YOUR Swipe hits Lazyfrog for 230 piercing damage (117516922<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />[Thu Mar 29 04:53:48 2007] YOU try to pierce Lazyfrog, but miss. (117516922<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />[Thu Mar 29 04:53:48 2007] YOU hit Lazyfrog for 159 slashing damage. (117516922<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />[Thu Mar 29 04:53:48 2007] Lazyfrog's Torporous Strike hits YOU for 250 slashing damage. (1175169229)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:49 2007] You stop fighting. (1175169229)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:49 2007] YOUR Noxious Venom critically hits Lazyfrog for 312 poison damage. (1175169229)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:49 2007] You start fighting. (1175169230)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:50 2007] You must be stealthed to use this ability (1175169230)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:50 2007] YOU try to pierce Lazyfrog, but Lazyfrog parries. (1175169230)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:50 2007] Lazyfrog's Counterattack hits YOU for 304 slashing damage. (1175169230)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:50 2007] Lazyfrog's Lunge Reversal hits YOU for 265 slashing damage. (1175169230)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:50 2007] YOU try to slash Lazyfrog, but Lazyfrog parries. (1175169230)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:50 2007] Lazyfrog's Counterattack hits YOU for 308 slashing damage. (1175169230)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:50 2007] You must be stealthed to use this ability (1175169231)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:51 2007] Lazyfrog's Whirl of Blades hits YOU for 227 slashing damage. (1175169231)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:51 2007] YOU try to poison Lazyfrog with Neurotoxin, but Lazyfrog resists. (1175169231)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:51 2007] Lazyfrog's Whirl of Blades hits YOU for 193 slashing damage. (1175169231)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:51 2007] Lazyfrog's Whirl of Blades hits YOU for 245 slashing damage. (1175169231)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:51 2007] YOU try to slash Lazyfrog, but Lazyfrog ripostes. (1175169231)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:51 2007] Lazyfrog hits YOU for 157 slashing damage. (1175169231)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:51 2007] Lazyfrog's Mark of the Scorn hits YOU for 234 magic damage. (1175169231)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:51 2007] Lazyfrog's Counterattack hits YOU for 341 slashing damage. (1175169231)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:51 2007] Lazyfrog hits YOU for 363 slashing damage. (1175169231)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:51 2007] YOU try to poison Lazyfrog with Neurotoxin, but Lazyfrog resists. (1175169231)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:51 2007] Lazyfrog hits YOU for 171 slashing damage. (1175169232)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:52 2007] Lazyfrog tries to slash YOU with Uncanny Response, but YOU riposte. (1175169232)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:52 2007] YOU hit Lazyfrog for 67 piercing damage. (1175169232)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:52 2007] Lazyfrog's Counterattack hits YOU for 226 slashing damage. (1175169232)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:52 2007] YOU try to pierce Lazyfrog with Flowing Wound, but Lazyfrog ripostes. (1175169232)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:52 2007] Lazyfrog tries to slash YOU, but misses. (1175169232)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:52 2007] Lazyfrog's Counterattack hits YOU for 351 slashing damage. (1175169232)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:52 2007] YOU try to pierce Lazyfrog, but Lazyfrog ripostes. (1175169232)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:52 2007] Lazyfrog hits YOU for 134 slashing damage. (1175169232)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:52 2007] YOU try to poison Lazyfrog with Neurotoxin, but Lazyfrog resists. (1175169232)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:52 2007] Lazyfrog's Counterattack hits YOU for 299 slashing damage. (1175169232)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:52 2007] YOU try to slash Lazyfrog, but Lazyfrog ripostes. (1175169232)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:52 2007] Lazyfrog critically hits YOU for 198 slashing damage. (1175169232)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:52 2007] Lazyfrog's Mark of the Scorn hits YOU for 246 magic damage. (1175169232)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:52 2007] Lazyfrog's Counterattack hits YOU for 307 slashing damage. (1175169233)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:53 2007] Lazyfrog tries to slash YOU with Devious Blade, but misses. (1175169233)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:53 2007] Lazyfrog critically hits YOU for 423 slashing damage. (1175169233)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:53 2007] YOU try to poison Lazyfrog with Neurotoxin, but Lazyfrog resists. (1175169233)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:53 2007] YOU try to pierce Lazyfrog with Freezing Strike, but Lazyfrog ripostes. (1175169233)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:53 2007] Lazyfrog hits YOU for 128 slashing damage. (1175169233)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:53 2007] Lazyfrog's gracelessness afflicts you. (1175169233)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:53 2007] Lazyfrog's vitality breach hits YOU for 161 poison damage. (1175169233)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:53 2007] Lazyfrog's vitality breach heals Lazyfrog for 175 hit points. (1175169233)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:53 2007] Lazyfrog's Counterattack hits YOU for 244 slashing damage. (1175169234)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:54 2007] YOU try to slash Lazyfrog, but Lazyfrog ripostes. (1175169234)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:54 2007] Lazyfrog hits YOU for 134 slashing damage. (1175169234)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:54 2007] Lazyfrog tries to confound YOU with Stun VI, but YOU resist. (1175169234)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:54 2007] YOU try to poison Lazyfrog with Neurotoxin, but Lazyfrog resists. (1175169234)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:54 2007] Lazyfrog's Counterattack hits YOU for 341 slashing damage. (1175169234)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:54 2007] You stop fighting. (1175169234)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:54 2007] The poison dissipates from your weapons. (1175169234)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:54 2007] The poison dissipates from your weapons. (1175169234)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:54 2007] Lazyfrog has killed you. (1175169234)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:54 2007] You lost 13 Gold, 35 Silver, 69 Copper for losing the battle. (1175169234)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:54 2007] Your death has decreased your infamy. (1175169234)[Thu Mar 29 04:53:54 2007] Lazyfrog was interrupted!</p>

dnice74
03-29-2007, 11:32 AM
<p><span style="font-size: x-small"><span style="color: #00cc00">There has been an awful lot of "swashies are op, stop talking about brigands!" I find that amusing, because it's a common tactic used by people to draw attention away from themselves. </span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small"><span style="color: #00cc00">"well yeah I can take down people in a set ov pvp gear in 2 seconds - but man that guy can too! nerf him!"</span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small"><span style="color: #00cc00">Unfortunately, that only proves my point as well - hack or not, this stuff has to be addressed. Let me boil it down to this, because it seems to have been lost in the past 9 pages:</span></span></p><p><u><span style="font-size: small"><span style="color: #ff0000">I, and many others, feel there is a hack here. I've been told this on several occasions; hell, I have screenshots. Also realized that one of Famine's teammates does the exact same thing, what a coincidence. I have reported people for this who haven't been on since. Gee, what a coincidence. I've heard from others that GM's know this is a problem and are working on it. Is a lot of this hearsay? You bet. But if it walks, talks, and quacks like a duck, I'm calling it Donald. </span></span></u></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="font-size: small"><u>If there is, this needs to be examined, obviously. I feel this is a hack because contrary to what people may believe, I am quite capable of killing brigands. They get me more than I get them, but believe me, I do win. When this anomaly is in place, there is nothing that I can do but die in a ridiculously short amount of time. Again: there are plate tanks who die to seconds in this, it's not just me. It's akin to flipping a switch.</u> </span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: small">But what is even better is this:</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000"><u><span style="font-size: small">If this is not a hack, and we are all just paranoid nuts, then brigands are so retardedly op against <b>casters</b> that they might as well not even go to T7, where brigs are a dime a dozen. Spare me the r-p-s, spare me l2p, spare me your counter-arguments. There are none. Again - pray this is a hack. Because otherwise, scouts are in for another nerf. Might not be now, might not be later, but you will get one. There is no [Removed for Content] way any class should be instakilled. This combo, which refreshes every minute, allows brigs to destroy any class they please. Bad enough they have evac, stuns, snares, chain, stealth, pets, crazy burst dps, and track, but for them to take out other people with similar gear in <2 seconds is [Removed for Content].</span></u>  </span></p>

dnice74
03-29-2007, 11:44 AM
<i><u>is this the whine about brigs and swashy thread? lol </u></i><p><i><u>yea i got pwn'd but this is the pure skill of a swash at its finest- Im pretty sure he wasnt even buffed when I first hit him</u></i></p><p><i><u>8 sec stifle and he gets stuff off still? I know he doesnt use potions so =P</u></i></p><p><i><u>pvp belt and inspiration for the win. I have 3200 Mit and yes I was in offensive stance =P</u></i></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">You know, I'm starting to think you people are trying to top each other for most idiotic posts. Cru, I know you are a kid so I kind of expect this from you, but this is stupid to the nth degree. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">1. so he owned you and this proves swashies are op? guess what. i've done the same to you, and it was even uglier. so nerf conjurors, too? were it not for decap and the fact that most assassins are perfectly comfortable running from fights until their timer pops, you would still be slayer.  </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00"><u><b>2. an assassin complaining about ANY class when they can still decap for 4k plus is 10000% nominee material for the hypocrite hall of fame. seriously, you have warped beyond the boundaries of space and time to take orbit around planet [Removed for Content] with this one.</b></u> </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">3. so maybe i should discredit you when you kill someone because you have endline claymore gear? my word, do ANY of you think before you post?</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">ok, you can leave the boards now, decap timer is about up. I see a clothie about to land on whisper....</span></p>

dnice74
03-29-2007, 12:11 PM
<p><span style="color: #00cc00">Seeing as how all the brigands are sitting here saying that everything is hunky-dory, I figured I'd start gathering quotes from cloth instead. Here's one from a recent thread I liked, and I could get 100 more if I took the time:</span></p><p><b><i><u>HerbertWalker...try coming up with the bigboys and stop the level locking already!!! Before they had manshield the clothie was worthless against scouts. I have over 6000 kills with this guy and have killed many scouts solo...if I see them first my odds are much higher. Most of the time though I'm dead in seconds with no chance at hitting manshield at all. Until you hit level 70 and see what PvP is really like please don't even coment on this subject.</u></i></b> </p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Edit: Hell, give me manashield, and we can call it good. </span></p>

Firam
03-29-2007, 12:23 PM
This thread has inspired me.  I hadn't really considered making a PvP video before, but I am now motivated to hunt down every soloing conjuror I can find (I'll ask in chat channels to narrow the search if I have to!), and FRAPS them dying a horrible, pitiful death.  I welcome scouts worldwide to join me.  Brigands preferred.  We're sexy like that. We can consolidate everyone's FRAPS into one half-hour extravaganza.  If we crop the video right, and capture the battles in their entirety, that should end up being almost a thousand dead conjuror's (if Dnice's claims are correct)!  Excellent! Predictions (in semi-chronological order): 1.  Dnice's conjuror shall be featured in at least 10% of the clips. 2.  Claims of a mass brigand hax0rfest shall continue to resonate throughout the halls of these forums, despite video evidence to the contrary. 3.  Good fun shall be had by all.  Well, almost all.  Except the dead conjurors. 4.  Brigands will evade the nerfbat when devs get ahold of the video and play it, on infinite loop, in the breakroom as office entertainment.  The entire text of this forum thread will be printed out and posted next to the TV.  Laminated, bound, pamphlet style copies will be placed in the bathroom stalls for that really tough post-Taco Bell relief. 5.  Dnice will eventually delete his conjuror in disgust, create a brigand, shortly thereafter realize the shameful error of his ways, and take his own life.  Police will find him three days later, face first on his keyboard, with a Double Up macro open on his still-active character's screen.

stonebo
03-29-2007, 12:25 PM
<cite>dnice74 wrote:</cite><blockquote><i><u>is this the whine about brigs and swashy thread? lol </u></i><p><i><u>yea i got pwn'd but this is the pure skill of a swash at its finest- Im pretty sure he wasnt even buffed when I first hit him</u></i></p><p><i><u>8 sec stifle and he gets stuff off still? I know he doesnt use potions so =P</u></i></p><p><i><u>pvp belt and inspiration for the win. I have 3200 Mit and yes I was in offensive stance =P</u></i></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">You know, I'm starting to think you people are trying to top each other for most idiotic posts. Cru, I know you are a kid so I kind of expect this from you, but this is stupid to the nth degree. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">1. so he owned you and this proves swashies are op? guess what. i've done the same to you, and it was even uglier. so nerf conjurors, too? were it not for decap and the fact that most assassins are perfectly comfortable running from fights until their timer pops, you would still be slayer.  </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00"><u><b>2. an assassin complaining about ANY class when they can still decap for 4k plus is 10000% nominee material for the hypocrite hall of fame. seriously, you have warped beyond the boundaries of space and time to take orbit around planet [I cannot control my vocabulary] with this one.</b></u> </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">3. so maybe i should discredit you when you kill someone because you have endline claymore gear? my word, do ANY of you think before you post?</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">ok, you can leave the boards now, decap timer is about up. I see a clothie about to land on whisper....</span></p></blockquote><p>Um- I have never lost to you before ever group or solo. period. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

dnice74
03-29-2007, 12:29 PM
<cite>Firamas wrote:</cite><blockquote>This thread has inspired me.  I hadn't really considered making a PvP video before, but I am now motivated to hunt down every soloing conjuror I can find (I'll ask in chat channels to narrow the search if I have to!), and FRAPS them dying a horrible, pitiful death.  I welcome scouts worldwide to join me.  Brigands preferred.  We're sexy like that. We can consolidate everyone's FRAPS into one half-hour extravaganza.  If we crop the video right, and capture the battles in their entirety, that should end up being almost a thousand dead conjuror's (if Dnice's claims are correct)!  Excellent! Predictions (in semi-chronological order): 1.  Dnice's conjuror shall be featured in at least 10% of the clips. 2.  Claims of a mass brigand hax0rfest shall continue to resonate throughout the halls of these forums, despite video evidence to the contrary. 3.  Good fun shall be had by all.  Well, almost all.  Except the dead conjurors. 4.  Brigands will evade the nerfbat when devs get ahold of the video and play it, on infinite loop, in the breakroom as office entertainment.  The entire text of this forum thread will be printed out and posted next to the TV.  Laminated, bound, pamphlet style copies will be placed in the bathroom stalls for that really tough post-Taco Bell relief. 5.  Dnice will eventually delete his conjuror in disgust, create a brigand, shortly thereafter realize the shameful error of his ways, and take his own life.  Police will find him three days later, face first on his keyboard, with a Double Up macro open on his still-active character's screen. </blockquote>Oh, by all means, my liege.

dnice74
03-29-2007, 12:35 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><cite>dnice74 wrote:</cite><blockquote><i><u>is this the whine about brigs and swashy thread? lol </u></i><p><i><u>yea i got pwn'd but this is the pure skill of a swash at its finest- Im pretty sure he wasnt even buffed when I first hit him</u></i></p><p><i><u>8 sec stifle and he gets stuff off still? I know he doesnt use potions so =P</u></i></p><p><i><u>pvp belt and inspiration for the win. I have 3200 Mit and yes I was in offensive stance =P</u></i></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">You know, I'm starting to think you people are trying to top each other for most idiotic posts. Cru, I know you are a kid so I kind of expect this from you, but this is stupid to the nth degree. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">1. so he owned you and this proves swashies are op? guess what. i've done the same to you, and it was even uglier. so nerf conjurors, too? were it not for decap and the fact that most assassins are perfectly comfortable running from fights until their timer pops, you would still be slayer.  </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00"><u><b>2. an assassin complaining about ANY class when they can still decap for 4k plus is 10000% nominee material for the hypocrite hall of fame. seriously, you have warped beyond the boundaries of space and time to take orbit around planet [I cannot control my vocabulary] with this one.</b></u> </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">3. so maybe i should discredit you when you kill someone because you have endline claymore gear? my word, do ANY of you think before you post?</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">ok, you can leave the boards now, decap timer is about up. I see a clothie about to land on whisper....</span></p></blockquote><p>Um- I have never lost to you before ever group or solo. period. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Now I know you're a kid. I have beaten you solo at least once, I think it might have been more. It would defnitely be more if you weren't immune half the time waiting for decap. You definitely win more of our match-ups, being the timer-freak that you are, but for you to be so insecure as to admit the truth is really, really sad. Actually, the only assassin I haven't beaten solo is Soulhunter. If you think you are in his league, or Noisop's, think again. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">If you can't even be honest about losing a battle in a freaking video game kid, then don't post in this thread. You didn't contribute anything useful anyway. </span></p>

stonebo
03-29-2007, 12:38 PM
<cite>dnice74 wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><cite>dnice74 wrote:</cite><blockquote><i><u>is this the whine about brigs and swashy thread? lol </u></i><p><i><u>yea i got pwn'd but this is the pure skill of a swash at its finest- Im pretty sure he wasnt even buffed when I first hit him</u></i></p><p><i><u>8 sec stifle and he gets stuff off still? I know he doesnt use potions so =P</u></i></p><p><i><u>pvp belt and inspiration for the win. I have 3200 Mit and yes I was in offensive stance =P</u></i></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">You know, I'm starting to think you people are trying to top each other for most idiotic posts. Cru, I know you are a kid so I kind of expect this from you, but this is stupid to the nth degree. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">1. so he owned you and this proves swashies are op? guess what. i've done the same to you, and it was even uglier. so nerf conjurors, too? were it not for decap and the fact that most assassins are perfectly comfortable running from fights until their timer pops, you would still be slayer.  </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00"><u><b>2. an assassin complaining about ANY class when they can still decap for 4k plus is 10000% nominee material for the hypocrite hall of fame. seriously, you have warped beyond the boundaries of space and time to take orbit around planet [I cannot control my vocabulary] with this one.</b></u> </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">3. so maybe i should discredit you when you kill someone because you have endline claymore gear? my word, do ANY of you think before you post?</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">ok, you can leave the boards now, decap timer is about up. I see a clothie about to land on whisper....</span></p></blockquote><p>Um- I have never lost to you before ever group or solo. period. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Now I know you're a kid. I have beaten you solo at least once, I think it might have been more. It would defnitely be more if you weren't immune half the time waiting for decap. You definitely win more of our match-ups, being the timer-freak that you are, but for you to be so insecure as to admit the truth is really, really sad. Actually, the only assassin I haven't beaten solo is Soulhunter. If you think you are in his league, or Noisop's, think again. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">If you can't even be honest about losing a battle in a freaking video game kid, then don't post in this thread. You didn't contribute anything useful anyway. </span></p></blockquote><p> lol wow</p><p>you dont know me at all</p><p>I am far from a timer waiter or zone hugger much to my detriment sometimes. lol</p><p>again. you have not beaten "me" ever. </p><p>I think I was quite honest posting a log of Lazyfrog pwning me. what's your excuse for being an idiot anyways?</p>

dnice74
03-29-2007, 12:44 PM
<p><span style="color: #00cc00">1. oh, so I guess you concede my other points by the way, seeing as how you had nothing to say. just checking. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">2. i have no reason to lie, i'm far too old and quite secure enough to admit when i lose. if someone owns me, so what? it's a game, it's not like they doubled my taxes or something. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">3. i have beaten you, but i didn't know how to log combat files, so i can't prove it. but oh well. your reasons for lying to everyone are your own, i don't care enough about you to give a rat's [Removed for Content]. run along little boy, back to the topic at hand.  </span></p>

stonebo
03-29-2007, 01:43 PM
<cite>dnice74 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00">1. oh, so I guess you concede my other points by the way, seeing as how you had nothing to say. just checking. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">2. i have no reason to lie, i'm far too old and quite secure enough to admit when i lose. if someone owns me, so what? it's a game, it's not like they doubled my taxes or something. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">3. i have beaten you, but i didn't know how to log combat files, so i can't prove it. but oh well. your reasons for lying to everyone are your own, i don't care enough about you to give a rat's [I cannot control my vocabulary]. run along little boy, back to the topic at hand.  </span></p></blockquote><p> Yes I concede you are an idiot.</p>

Ibunubi
03-29-2007, 02:06 PM
<cite>dnice74 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00">1. oh, so I guess you concede my other points by the way, seeing as how you had nothing to say. just checking. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">2. i have no reason to lie, i'm far too old and quite secure enough to admit when i lose. if someone owns me, so what? it's a game, it's not like they doubled my taxes or something. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">3. i have beaten you, but i didn't know how to log combat files, so i can't prove it. but oh well. your reasons for lying to everyone are your own, i don't care enough about you to give a rat's [I cannot control my vocabulary]. run along little boy, back to the topic at hand.  </span></p></blockquote><p>Actually, you've never provided anything about this "hack" except for "There has to be a hack. Many people have told me about it. It must be true." You still provide nothing but stories. I am starting to believe you are the Dankshasta of Vox.</p><p>You're trying to twist your story so much to be "brigands are overpowered." Yes, you did post a combat log. Here's a girl scout cookie from Gromann. Guess what? It was legit, not a hack.</p><p>I have yet to see a reason to believe your 1500 kill per 1000 death. In fact, with 1500 kills total and your amount of "skill", 5 PvP pieces is kind of shady.</p>

Eybietie
03-29-2007, 02:22 PM
<span style="color: #ffff00">i can´t believe this thread is still going on lol.</span>

dnice74
03-29-2007, 02:59 PM
<cite>Ibunubi wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>dnice74 wrote:</cite><blockquote></blockquote><p><i>Actually, you've never provided anything about this "hack" except for "There has to be a hack. Many people have told me about it. It must be true." You still provide nothing but stories. I am starting to believe you are the Dankshasta of Vox.</i></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">I agree with you, and have said - if you think I'm a stubborn quack, so be it. Many agree that something is wrong here. Are we right? Don't know, maybe I never will. </span></p><p><i>You're trying to twist your story so much to be "brigands are overpowered." Yes, you did post a combat log. Here's a girl scout cookie from Gromann. Guess what? It was legit, not a hack.</i></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Bzzzzt. I just clarified my position in a post with big pretty red letters. Try again. </span></p><p><i>I have yet to see a reason to believe your 1500 kill per 1000 death. In fact, with 1500 kills total and your amount of "skill", 5 PvP pieces is kind of shady.</i></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">R o f l. Yeah, the trolls will reveal themselves. You've gone from rational, to snarky, to out-and-out idiotic troll with this comment. Why do I keep giving people credit for intelligence? Are you really this dense? You know, it's not a crime to be unintelligent; it's ok, I won't pick on you for it.  But be aware of how stupid you look with comments like this. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Here's another list, because it will help your tiny little brain comprehend this:</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">1. you haven't pvp'd against me, so you don't know my skill. i never dubbed myself the BEST EVAR. i learn things all the time. but i am very good at what i do. i could give you a list of of people i've taken down, or tell you how many people with better gear who run from me, or tell me i'm very good (on the fp side), blah blah blah. but you wouldn't believe me, and it would be stretching the borders of relevance here.   </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">furthermore, if you are on vox (i haven't even looked, cause i really don't care); i'd like your toon's name and level, please.   </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">2. my stats are easily looked up, so how you can possibly sit here and call me a liar AGAIN when the proof is only a few clicks away is beyond me. /boggle </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">actually, I think it's closer to 1600 kills, thanks. in about 3 months. 90% solo. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">3. shady how? maybe i shot JFK, too? actually, no. but i did kill lincoln, sorry. </span></p></blockquote>

Ibunubi
03-29-2007, 03:13 PM
<p>Actually, it was because I was rational you seemed to avoid me, and, instead, tried to justify yourself to people calling you out for the past 9 pages. Only until I insulted you that you responded~ Everyone can say "Oh that's not right. It HAS to be hack!" For someone who is this desperate to have a class nerfed, who already was nerfed, the "hack" routine is getting pretty old. They can kill you, so what? You should go back to farming the bots, which seems to be the majority of your kills.</p><p>Intelligence? Please... You just found out how to /log fights. You ask for my character's name, and it's displayed twice in my forum signature~ And yes, I can tell your experience in T7. I can tell by your posts, October creation, and kill count per PvP piece.</p>

Eybietie
03-29-2007, 03:22 PM
<a href="http://www.metacafe.com/watch/440468/french_missles_dont_mix_had_to_see_this_coming/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">fraps video of an exploiting conjurer</a>

dnice74
03-29-2007, 03:46 PM
<cite>Ibunubi wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Actually, it was because I was rational you seemed to avoid me, and, instead, tried to justify yourself to people calling you out for the past 9 pages. Only until I insulted you that you responded~ Everyone can say "Oh that's not right. It HAS to be hack!" For someone who is this desperate to have a class nerfed, who already was nerfed, the "hack" routine is getting pretty old. They can kill you, so what? You should go back to farming the bots, which seems to be the majority of your kills.</p><p>Intelligence? Please... You just found out how to /log fights. You ask for my character's name, and it's displayed twice in my forum signature~ And yes, I can tell your experience in T7. I can tell by your posts, October creation, and kill count per PvP piece.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Ugh. The trolling here is getting terrible.  </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Yes, I uh....only respond to insults because....uhhhh....yeah. What???</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Yes, I am DESPERATE to get them nerfed, I have a hidden agenda. You have got to be kidding me. I said that I don't want the destruction of their class several times in several different ways now. I want parity, but apparently that's a crime. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Yes, clearly, because I didn't know how to log fights, I am stupid. I lose, you win. What does that have to do with you knowing how I play because of a thread you read? Are you using Fir's crystal ball? Here is a fact: you are not here, you know <u>nothing</u>. To debate otherwise only makes you look more and more trollish with each post, if such a thing is possible. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">The only correct thing you said is that I could have looked at your sig. Got me there. So tell me, Mr. Coercertroll - why are you here? You're worse than the other trolls in this thread; at least they are on this server or being somewhat logical. Hell, even Boz stopped chirping. You'll notice none of them are calling me out for sucking. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">I'm putting my asbestos suit back on; [Removed for Content] I am horrible at ignoring trolls. My next reply to you is going to be a recipe for brownies. </span></p>

dnice74
03-29-2007, 03:53 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote> <a href="http://www.metacafe.com/watch/440468/french_missles_dont_mix_had_to_see_this_coming/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">fraps video of an exploiting conjurer</a></blockquote> <span style="color: #00cc00">When I get home I will post a picture of a llama, just so that we are on the same page relevance-wise. </span>

Ibunubi
03-29-2007, 04:00 PM
Ten pages and you haven't said OR shown what this "hack" is. When people call you out on the hack, you switch to "brigands are overpowered versus casters." I came here to see what this almighty hack was, and I've been seriously disappointed. If you're not asking for a nerf, what are you asking for? An explanation? Because it's already been explained to you for 10 pages~

dnice74
03-29-2007, 04:31 PM
<cite>Ibunubi wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ten pages and you haven't said OR shown what this "hack" is. When people call you out on the hack, you switch to "brigands are overpowered versus casters." I came here to see what this almighty hack was, and I've been seriously disappointed. If you're not asking for a nerf, what are you asking for? An explanation? Because it's already been explained to you for 10 pages~</blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Nope. Suit is on. It's kind of cumbersome, though. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">I have discussed these points. If you are bored, go make a twink or something. I'm done repeating things to you people. </span></p>

RpTheHotrod
03-29-2007, 04:55 PM
<p>Just my opinion, I think a macro system where you can put in more than one attack is too easy to be exploited, in general. It also takes out what little skill involves timing things right.</p><p> I'd say, change the new macro system where you can only put in one combat ability/one spell per macro.</p>

Ibunubi
03-29-2007, 04:57 PM
<cite>dnice74 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ibunubi wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ten pages and you haven't said OR shown what this "hack" is. When people call you out on the hack, you switch to "brigands are overpowered versus casters." I came here to see what this almighty hack was, and I've been seriously disappointed. If you're not asking for a nerf, what are you asking for? An explanation? Because it's already been explained to you for 10 pages~</blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Nope. Suit is on. It's kind of cumbersome, though. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">I have discussed these points. If you are bored, go make a twink or something. I'm done repeating things to you people. </span></p></blockquote>Now you're hiding your head in the sand because there is no hack?

Ameniel
03-29-2007, 05:03 PM
<p>OP: You want people to listen to you yet you completely blow off any argument someone tries to make, like you did mine. I may as well have been posting to a brick wall. </p><p>You've done a great job of alienating everyone here, and you keep saying other people agree with you, yet I don't see anyone agreeing with you. Maybe your imaginary friends?... Nonetheless, everyone who saw your combat log is telling you it is legit. But, you're welcome to keep banging your head against a wall about it. </p><p>You fail to see that ALL scouts(rogues & preds mainly) are strong vs mages, that includes swashes and rangers. I'm surprised that with all your t7 experience you have apparently not yet fought an exiled swash or ranger. I spent a short amount of time in t7 with my first toon, and through exiles had the opportunity to fight many classes of my alignment as well as the Q classes I'd been fighting all along. </p><p>Anyway, bottom line is....I'm quite happy with my toon, my class, and my pvp experience with it. You are the one who is here crying to everyone. The only thing you can do now is cry more, because I'm pretty sure the brigands on your server won't stop owning your face. </p>

Ameniel
03-29-2007, 05:07 PM
<cite>Firamas wrote:</cite><blockquote>This thread has inspired me.  I hadn't really considered making a PvP video before, but I am now motivated to hunt down every soloing conjuror I can find (I'll ask in chat channels to narrow the search if I have to!), and FRAPS them dying a horrible, pitiful death.  I welcome scouts worldwide to join me.  Brigands preferred.  We're sexy like that. We can consolidate everyone's FRAPS into one half-hour extravaganza.  If we crop the video right, and capture the battles in their entirety, that should end up being almost a thousand dead conjuror's (if Dnice's claims are correct)!  Excellent! Predictions (in semi-chronological order): 1.  Dnice's conjuror shall be featured in at least 10% of the clips. 2.  Claims of a mass brigand hax0rfest shall continue to resonate throughout the halls of these forums, despite video evidence to the contrary. 3.  Good fun shall be had by all.  Well, almost all.  Except the dead conjurors. <span style="color: #ff0000">4.  Brigands will evade the nerfbat when devs get ahold of the video and play it, on infinite loop, in the breakroom as office entertainment.  The entire text of this forum thread will be printed out and posted next to the TV.  Laminated, bound, pamphlet style copies will be placed in the bathroom stalls for that really tough post-Taco Bell relief. 5.  Dnice will eventually delete his conjuror in disgust, create a brigand, shortly thereafter realize the shameful error of his ways, and take his own life.  Police will find him three days later, </span><span style="color: #ff6600">face first on his keyboard, with a Double Up macro open on his still-active character's screen. </span></blockquote>Rofl....this cracked me up

dnice74
03-29-2007, 05:15 PM
<cite>Ibunubi wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>dnice74 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ibunubi wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ten pages and you haven't said OR shown what this "hack" is. When people call you out on the hack, you switch to "brigands are overpowered versus casters." I came here to see what this almighty hack was, and I've been seriously disappointed. If you're not asking for a nerf, what are you asking for? An explanation? Because it's already been explained to you for 10 pages~</blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Nope. Suit is on. It's kind of cumbersome, though. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">I have discussed these points. If you are bored, go make a twink or something. I'm done repeating things to you people. </span></p></blockquote>Now you're hiding your head in the sand because there is no hack?</blockquote>Nope. Go read the thread again. If there is a new question, I will answer it. What do I ahve to be afraid of by answering a question???? Zero. But I am done repeating myself.

dnice74
03-29-2007, 05:20 PM
<cite>Ameniel wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>OP: You want people to listen to you yet you completely blow off any argument someone tries to make, like you did mine. I may as well have been posting to a brick wall. </p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Wrong again. I have even said that I was really starting to think this was really only about a macro, and how r-p-s rules this game, which is why I started discussing brigands vs. casters. But people keep telling me otherwise about this guy, and something seems wrong. For the last time - you are welcome to not believe me. I know a major failing of mine is having no proof of this. But you know what - I have no tools to prove this, either. This is for the devs, not the boo-birds. </span></p><p>You've done a great job of alienating everyone here, and you keep saying other people agree with you, yet I don't see anyone agreeing with you. Maybe your imaginary friends?... Nonetheless, everyone who saw your combat log is telling you it is legit. But, you're welcome to keep banging your head against a wall about it. </p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Everyone here is a. a brigand b. a troll c. a fp/exile toon. I could care less. As for the combat log....see what I said to you above. </span></p><p>You fail to see that ALL scouts(rogues & preds mainly) are strong vs mages, that includes swashes and rangers. I'm surprised that with all your t7 experience you have apparently not yet fought an exiled swash or ranger. I spent a short amount of time in t7 with my first toon, and through exiles had the opportunity to fight many classes of my alignment as well as the Q classes I'd been fighting all along. </p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Sorry, talked about this too, repeatedly. Go look for it. I'm not here to cut and paste for you. </span></p><p>Anyway, bottom line is....I'm quite happy with my toon, my class, and my pvp experience with it. You are the one who is here crying to everyone. The only thing you can do now is cry more, because I'm pretty sure the brigands on your server won't stop owning your face. </p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Uh-oh, he's angry! Here comes the troll-bait comments!</span></p></blockquote>

Wytie
03-29-2007, 05:20 PM
<cite>dnice74 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ibunubi wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>dnice74 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ibunubi wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ten pages and you haven't said OR shown what this "hack" is. When people call you out on the hack, you switch to "brigands are overpowered versus casters." I came here to see what this almighty hack was, and I've been seriously disappointed. If you're not asking for a nerf, what are you asking for? An explanation? Because it's already been explained to you for 10 pages~</blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Nope. Suit is on. It's kind of cumbersome, though. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">I have discussed these points. If you are bored, go make a twink or something. I'm done repeating things to you people. </span></p></blockquote>Now you're hiding your head in the sand because there is no hack?</blockquote>Nope. Go read the thread again. If there is a new question, I will answer it. What do I ahve to be afraid of by answering a question???? Zero. But I am done repeating myself. </blockquote><p>KILLYOURSELF <span style="font-size: xx-small"><i>next time you see a brig thats the smart thing to do</i></span>  <img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Brigs and Swashy's are strong pvp classes either roll one and play to lean how to beat or use my above advice.</p><p>I get pwnd by swashys so i suck too  <img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p>

Xova
03-29-2007, 05:21 PM
<cite>RpTheHotrod wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Just my opinion, I think a macro system where you can put in more than one attack is too easy to be exploited, in general. It also takes out what little skill involves timing things right.</p><p> I'd say, change the new macro system where you can only put in one combat ability/one spell per macro.</p></blockquote> Actually I'd have to disagree with that because I use a macro as a Fury to save Lifeburning Necros in raids that uses two spells. And most casters can only put two spells in there to begin with due to casting times. What makes it easy for Brigands is that their CA's have such short casts that they can string them together in a macro to seemingly unload them all at once

CresentBlade
03-29-2007, 05:21 PM
<p>I AGREE with dnice74!!</p><p>p.s. What I am I agreeing to? <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

Wytie
03-29-2007, 05:24 PM
<cite>Gildorath wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I AGREE with dnice74!!</p><p>p.s. What I am I agreeing to? <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote><p> that brigs are overpowered and since he cant beat them he should just roll one kinda like you did with your SK <img src="/smilies/499fd50bc713bfcdf2ab5a23c00c2d62.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>mouhahaha</p>

CresentBlade
03-29-2007, 05:32 PM
<cite>Wytie wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gildorath wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I AGREE with dnice74!!</p><p>p.s. What I am I agreeing to? <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote><p> that brigs are overpowered and since he cant beat them he should just roll one kinda like you did with your SK <img src="/smilies/499fd50bc713bfcdf2ab5a23c00c2d62.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>mouhahaha</p></blockquote><p>Haha heck ya<img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ShadowKnights have amazing utility, I never knew how much so.</p><p>Heck he should roll a Brig just may like the class<img src="/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p>

Wytie
03-29-2007, 05:40 PM
<cite>Gildorath wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wytie wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gildorath wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I AGREE with dnice74!!</p><p>p.s. What I am I agreeing to? <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote><p> that brigs are overpowered and since he cant beat them he should just roll one kinda like you did with your SK <img src="/smilies/499fd50bc713bfcdf2ab5a23c00c2d62.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>mouhahaha</p></blockquote><p>Haha heck ya<img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ShadowKnights have amazing utility, I never knew how much so.</p><p>Heck he should roll a Brig just may like the class<img src="/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p></blockquote>wait till you hit the upper 20's you'll be like dam <img src="/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Ibunubi
03-29-2007, 05:44 PM
<cite>dnice74 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="font-size: x-small"><span style="color: #00cc00">There has been an awful lot of "swashies are op, stop talking about brigands!" I find that amusing, because it's a common tactic used by people to draw attention away from themselves. </span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small"><span style="color: #00cc00">"well yeah I can take down people in a set ov pvp gear in 2 seconds - but man that guy can too! nerf him!"</span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small"><span style="color: #00cc00">Unfortunately, that only proves my point as well - hack or not, this stuff has to be addressed. Let me boil it down to this, because it seems to have been lost in the past 9 pages:</span></span></p><p><u><span style="font-size: small"><span style="color: #ff0000">I, and many others, feel there is a hack here. I've been told this on several occasions; hell, I have screenshots. Also realized that one of Famine's teammates does the exact same thing, what a coincidence. I have reported people for this who haven't been on since. Gee, what a coincidence. I've heard from others that GM's know this is a problem and are working on it. Is a lot of this hearsay? You bet. But if it walks, talks, and quacks like a duck, I'm calling it Donald. </span></span></u></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="font-size: small"><u>If there is, this needs to be examined, obviously. I feel this is a hack because contrary to what people may believe, I am quite capable of killing brigands. They get me more than I get them, but believe me, I do win. When this anomaly is in place, there is nothing that I can do but die in a ridiculously short amount of time. Again: there are plate tanks who die to seconds in this, it's not just me. It's akin to flipping a switch.</u> </span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: small">But what is even better is this:</span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000"><u><span style="font-size: small">If this is not a hack, and we are all just paranoid nuts, then brigands are so retardedly op against <b>casters</b> that they might as well not even go to T7, where brigs are a dime a dozen. Spare me the r-p-s, spare me l2p, spare me your counter-arguments. There are none. Again - pray this is a hack. Because otherwise, scouts are in for another nerf. Might not be now, might not be later, but you will get one. There is no [I cannot control my vocabulary] way any class should be instakilled. This combo, which refreshes every minute, allows brigs to destroy any class they please. Bad enough they have evac, stuns, snares, chain, stealth, pets, crazy burst dps, and track, but for them to take out other people with similar gear in <2 seconds is [I cannot control my vocabulary].</span></u>  </span></p></blockquote>You were killed. You call for nerf. You say you don't want them nerfed. You say they hack. You call people idiots and trolls for explaining it is NOT a hack. I think I got your whole message.

Bluetygur
03-29-2007, 06:17 PM
<p><span style="font-size: x-small; font-family: verdana,geneva">In the immortal words of Napoleon Dynamite .... "GOSH"</span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small; font-family: verdana,geneva">It's a shame this thread is degenerating into a flame war, because it seems to me there were 2 good questions that ought to be addressed.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small">Question 1: Is there a cheat going on?  I am still not sure, partly cause I am not that familiar with the classes involved.  But after reading thorugh this thread (and especially, thanks to the folks that contributed screen shots, logs, and explanations of the combart arts involved) my feeling is that, in most cases, the insta-kills were legit.  That is not to say that, in isolated cases, certain people are NOT cheating.  I hope the devs DO check into those cases.  Even in servers like ours, filled with mostly ethical and fair-minded people, there WILL always be a few that try to cheat.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small">Question 2: Regardless of the final answer to question 1, are "Insta-kills" (<2 sec, for eg) a thing that ought to be in pvp?  I'm talking about between folks of roughly even levels and gear.  Certainly, "insta-kills" will happen sometimes.  Several folks in this thread gave scenarios where class A beat class B in this way.  But as a routine, everyday occurance, should the "insta-kill" happen?</span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small">My feeling is that it should be only rare, not a normal, battle outcome.  PvP is better without it.  I totally admit this is subjective.  Reasonable people may disagree.  I just hope this is something the Devs will consider as they fine-tune the game.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small">In the immortal words of Napolean Dynamite's Brother:   "peace ... out"</span></p>

Ameniel
03-29-2007, 06:54 PM
<cite>dnice74 wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Uh-oh, he's angry! Here comes the troll-bait comments!</span></p></blockquote> </blockquote> I know, I'm so angry I made a thread pages long about how I hate this one class that keeps owning me & cussed out everybody that didn't agree. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Venomous2U
03-29-2007, 07:32 PM
<p>Oh man this thread makes me want to go out and kill you some more!  <img src="/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  </p><p>With Love,</p><p>General Odinn <span style="font-size: xx-small">(Vox Brigand) <img src="/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span></p><p><span style="font-size: xx-small"><span style="font-size: x-small">p.s. There is no hack....it's called <span style="color: #cc0000"><i><u>skill</u></i>.</span> I've been with clothys and watched them take on 3+ people.  </span></span></p>

Lazyfr
03-29-2007, 07:43 PM
<p>I just realized something... I guess I should respond to Cruoris first... Yeah I used my PVP belt... after reading some other posts, I figured out it takes 4.5 sec to do my buffs. The PVP belt allows me to actually use my buffs, even if I get snuck up on... like this morning. (Don't say you don't use it, cause I've seen you as well as many other freeps...) Also, thanks for actually fighting solo... It's always fun to fight you : ) (and that's not cause I beat him or pwn him... we go back and forth for sure)... And lastly, Grats on Dread : )</p><p>Now back to the whole issue of "hacking"... After looking at these threads, I can definitely see how brigs have the ability to do some pretty amazing burst DPS. It basically has resorted to namecalling and accusations. The idea of the Freeps having some way to "hack" I think actually started with a former member of our guild, who has actually been throwing a lot of mud on this thread. This member of our guild was a guy named <b>Greeen</b>, who also had a FP toon. He said he had grouped with Famine and seen how much he had "hacked"... This guy's FP toon is named <b>Amirus</b>... that being said, <b>Amirus, got anything to add to the discussion since you have been spurring it on from both sides from the beginning?</b></p><p>Just had that thought and wanted to see if this issue could get settled by the guy who started it...</p><p>Lazyfrog</p>

Spyderbite
03-29-2007, 08:24 PM
RTLFC... Here's the bottom line, OP. You state you've sent off many /petitions. That is the extent of your involvement. Seriously. Dev's (in any MMORPG) do not report back to you with a "We banned his a$$!!" or "Sorry.. we found nothing wrong". They do the necessary investigation, take the appropriate action if applicable and move on. So, if you're still seeing this person in question out doing the same thing after you've /petitioned regarding his actions, then the chances are he's doing nothing outside the game mechanics except being better at EQ2 than you. Harsh? Yes. But, that's really the simple truth of the matter. Move on.. get over it. In my opinion, I think he's just utilizing the macro system very efficiently. I've not heard anyone else state they continuously experienced that same problems as you have. If that were the case, you better believe that every Brigand and their grandma without a conscious on every server would be taking advantage of it as well. I'm not sure what causes people to believe that if their issue isn't resolved through CS in game; that demanding action on the forums will get better results. *confused* Seriously.. let it go. Your blood pressure will thank you.

shiftyt
03-29-2007, 09:13 PM
<cite>Venomous2U wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Oh man this thread makes me want to go out and kill you some more!  <img src="/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  </p><p>With Love,</p><p>General Odinn <span style="font-size: xx-small">(Vox Brigand) <img src="/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span></p><p><span style="font-size: xx-small"><span style="font-size: x-small">p.s. There is no hack....it's called <span style="color: #cc0000"><i><u>skill</u></i>.</span> I've been with clothys and watched them take on 3+ people.  </span></span></p></blockquote><p>Hhahaa  <b><u>Skill</u></b> is not involved.  Its called overpowered. You know it i know it and so does everone else.  There is a reason that about of 1/3 of freeport toons that r active pvper's are Brigands. Say the same of Swashies and your most likly right,  I have one and I can kill every other class 1v1 except brigands provided they are about the same level and geared.</p><p>I see alot of people defending their class.   <b>Scared of a NERF</b> are we? You all want to talk about just Brigands vS Cloth.  But its More Brigands/Swashies VS every other class The only Class that can truly stand up to them is a Priest (That sees them comming).</p><p>So again if you want to think you have skill make a Bringand or a Swash and kill the other classes. BECAUSE ITS SOOOOOO  EASY........... </p>

Firam
03-30-2007, 01:05 AM
shiftyt wrote: <blockquote> <p>Hhahaa  <b><u>Skill</u></b><u><b> </b></u>is not involved.  Its called overpowered. You know it i know it and so does everone else.  <span style="color: #ff0000">There is a reason that about of 1/3 of freeport toons that r active pvper's are Brigands</span>. Say the same of Swashies and your most likly right,  I have one and I can kill every other class 1v1 except brigands provided they are about the same level and geared.</p></blockquote> --- This is completely false.  Speculation and bias is going to win you no points, bud.  You may want to try exaggerating <i>slightly</i> instead of <i>obscenely</i> when you try to sway public opinion with statements like this; you'll find more success.  You can check EQ2census.com for a mostly-accurate display of the class breakdown if that serves as a useful guideline for you.  Drop off a few of the wizards and furies due to bot groups, and brigands still aren't even close to being the most played class, let alone "1/3 of the total".  Here's a breakdown of all classes, level 10-70, all PvP servers combined.  Data is as of NOV 2006, and with the recent nerfs I'd hazard a guess that the brigand population hasn't exactly exploded in the months since then.  Swashies and furies have become more of the FoTM since then, I'd expect the largest relative population gains in those rows if I had to take a guess.  Anyway, take this as you will: Mystic                  2755 Templar               3028 Coercer               3214 Troubador           3326 Inquisitor            3561 Defiler                 3645 Illusionist            4065 Paladin                5352 Guardian             5379 Dirge                   5813 Conjuror              5898 Warlock               6648 Warden               6694 Swashbuckler      7405 <span style="color: #0099ff">Brigand               8019</span> Monk                   8019 Shadow Knight    8382 Bruiser                 8488 Necromancer       9769 Berserker            9871 Ranger                10228 Fury                    11474 Assassin             11569 Wizard                12504 Knock off about 15-20% of wiz/fury for bots (co nservative estimate, might be less than that, there's an awful lot of actual furies out there for instance), strip away all the Q only classes, cut the neutral classes in half to estimate FP/Q division, and you come up with approximately 85,000 PvP-enabled FP or exiled-FP players.  16 classes total end up being in that breakdown.  Brigands account for about <b>9.4%</b> of that total.  Slightly more than the 6.25% (100/16) if we assume a completely even distribution of classes (which obviously isn't the case) but for the sake of argument you can see that brigands are by no means the FoTM-most-overplayed class that some people like to claim.  They just tend to get up close and personal with more vigor, and people like to whine about perceived notions rather than research facts. [Additionally: Do the same query for all non-PvP servers and look where brigands are.  Dead <b>last</b> place, edged out by coercers, and holding at  1.7% of the overall game-wide population.   Yes, less than 1 in 55 PvE characters is a brigand.   Anyway... irrelevant to this conversation, but a fun fact. =P] --- Also, the fact that all <b>three</b> of your total forums posts, for an account that's almost 2 years old, have come solely within this thread is a bit suspect.  Can't prove anything, and just offering this as a suggestion, but my personal view is that "shiftyt" is an alternate station account of another poster in this thread.  You wouldn't be the first person to try to prove a point by backing it up with like-minded claims from another account, but it's certainly suspect.  And even more pathetic if it's true.  Again, no hard claims, just an observation. edit/update: forgot one of the PvP servers... whoops >_< ... updated numbers for all 6 servers

Ameniel
03-30-2007, 01:58 PM
<cite>Firamas wrote:</cite><blockquote> but for the sake of argument you can see that brigands are <span style="color: #ff0000">by no means the FoTM-most-overplayed class that some people like to claim. </span> They just tend to get up close and personal with more vigor, and people like to whine about perceived notions rather than research facts.  You wouldn't be the first person to try to prove a point by backing it up with like-minded claims from another account, but it's certainly suspect.  And even more pathetic if it's true.  Again, no hard claims, just an observation. edit/update: forgot one of the PvP servers... whoops >_< ... updated numbers for all 6 servers </blockquote><p> QFE</p><p>And for Shiftyt...who I really think is the OP lol...brigands have actually been nerfed several times, one of the biggest being the EoF nerfs. </p>

Xantinya
03-30-2007, 03:05 PM
<span style="font-size: small"><b>Ameniel wrote:</b></span> <blockquote><p><span style="font-size: small"><b>And for Shiftyt...who I really think is the OP lol...<span style="color: #ff3300">brigands have actually been nerfed several times, one of the biggest being the EoF nerfs. </span></b></span></p></blockquote><span style="font-size: small"><b>Oh really?  Doesnt look like they've been nerfed that much to me, I can imagine how strong they were before.   This is a fact: a brigand can kill a heroic few levels higher then him (and fast too), I can't even dream of doing that with my sk with similar gear, heck I can't even dream of killing a white heroic or even a blue one (I am talking about lvl 60+ to 70 chars).  How is that balanced in any way?  And of course a swash can kill me in few seconds (and this even with pretty good poison and disease resists), I barely have time to get 2 or 3 spells off, its not surprising considering.</b> </span>

Ibunubi
03-30-2007, 03:12 PM
<cite>Xantinya wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="font-size: small">Ameniel wrote:</span> <blockquote><p><span style="font-size: small"><b>And for Shiftyt...who I really think is the OP lol...<span style="color: #ff3300">brigands have actually been nerfed several times, one of the biggest being the EoF nerfs. </span></b></span></p></blockquote><span style="font-size: small"><b>Oh really?  Doesnt look like they've been nerfed that much to me, I can imagine how strong they were before.   This is a fact: a brigand can kill a heroic few levels higher then him (and fast too), I can't even dream of doing that with my sk with similar gear, heck I can't even dream of killing a white heroic or even a blue one.  How is that balanced in any way?  And of course a swash can kill me in few seconds, I barely have time to get 2 or 3 spells off, its not surprising considering.</b> </span></blockquote><p>What tier are you talking about? If you're sub-50, it's not the same game as 50-70. Brigands <i>have</i> been nerfed because people didn't like their debuffs, so they were changed in EoF.</p><p>I've seen many other classes solo heroic mobs, even SK's. But I guess it must deal with gear, spells, and maybe something else~ <img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

Xantinya
03-30-2007, 03:15 PM
<p><span style="font-size: small"><b>I'm talking high 60s to 70s, but a lvl 50ish brig can do that as well, again this is a fact, I have guildies who have brigs in every tier, only wearing mastercrafted gear, and they can do it, and pretty fast too and without getting hurt too much either.  And I'm talking mastercrafted gear, not raid gear (I'm guessing with raid gear I would be able to kill a blue heroic).  Yeah I can kill heroic mobs but certainly not few levels higher then me, not white either, and not blue either, they have to be very green.</b></span></p><p><span style="font-size: small"><b>By all means I am not asking for a nerf on them (I HATE nerfs), but give us tanks better mit/avoid and more HPs, something to keep us alive longer at least.</b></span></p>

Harbringer Doom
03-30-2007, 03:19 PM
<cite>Xantinya wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="font-size: small"><b>...  they have to be pretty green. </b></span></blockquote> I think green is pretty too.

Ameniel
03-30-2007, 04:23 PM
<cite>Xantinya wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="font-size: small"><b>Ameniel wrote:</b></span> <blockquote><p><span style="font-size: small"><b>And for Shiftyt...who I really think is the OP lol...<span style="color: #ff3300">brigands have actually been nerfed several times, one of the biggest being the EoF nerfs. </span></b></span></p></blockquote><span style="font-size: small"><b>Oh really?  Doesnt look like they've been nerfed that much to me, I can imagine how strong they were before.   This is a fact: a brigand can kill a heroic few levels higher then him (and fast too), I can't even dream of doing that with my sk with similar gear, heck I can't even dream of killing a white heroic or even a blue one (I am talking about lvl 60+ to 70 chars).  How is that balanced in any way?  And of course a swash can kill me in few seconds (and this even with pretty good poison and disease resists), I barely have time to get 2 or 3 spells off, its not surprising considering.</b> </span></blockquote><p>Whoa....back up. You're an SK? Complaning about how powerful brigs are? This is not to be mean, but honestly...you must not know the first thing about SKs. </p><p>First of all, let's dispel this myth about brigs taking on higher con heroics solo. Never seen a one do that or even come close. At any tier. </p><p>Second,...SKs will own a brig in no time. I fought a buddy of mine who plays an SK in the arena...this is t4 now. I could not even come close to putting a dent in him. He could literally kill me in ~10 sec if he went all-out dps, and could still kill me if he only used melee(no lifetaps/debuffs/spells). Meanwhile I could hardly hurt him. He can kill scouts 5-8 lvls higher than him(seriously, im not exaggerating) and most other classes as well. And this is without HT. </p><p>And...the same holds for t7. I know one of the top SKs on my server and he can take scout classes 1v2, sometimes even 1v3. I've also fought him in the arena on my bruiser, also 1v2 with my bruiser and a healer both us vs him. He is a beast. Any well-played SK is a huge pain, and a scout will not be a match for him with the only exception a t7 swash who gets the drop. And get the drop is key, if he sees the swash first the swash is going down. </p><p>Now in case you don't believe me, I challenge anyone on these forums who has enough experience with good SKs(either playing them or fighting against them) to tell me I'm wrong. I've seen over and over what SKs can do, so again....without being mean....I'm telling you you really need to learn what your class can do, because it sounds like you haven't even begun scratching the surface.  </p>

Bozidar
03-30-2007, 04:37 PM
<p>Maybe in T7 brigs can take on even conned or higher heroic ^^^'s.. i dunno.</p><p>But i've got some of the best lvl 30 gear for a brigand you can have, with 36 AAs i think (he was lvl 25 when EoF came out), and I can't take on even level or higher heroics.  If it's the RIGHT mob, say one that's ALMOST green to me, and relies mostly on attacks that i've got good defense from, then i can take it out (Corpse Hunter, Storm Hold, when i was lvl 29).  Most of the time they have to be green for me to solo it.</p><p>However, when i bring my Inquisitor friend along, we can take out a great great deal <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>PvP, PvE.. it's a group game, and when you do it right you're going to kick [Removed for Content] <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

Firam
03-30-2007, 11:05 PM
<cite>Xantinya wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="font-size: small"><b>I'm talking high 60s to 70s, but a lvl 50ish brig can do that as well, again this is a fact, I have guildies who have brigs in every tier, only wearing mastercrafted gear, and they can do it, and pretty fast too and without getting hurt too much either.</b></span></p></blockquote> L50 brigands will not be soloing yellow ^^^ wearing MC gear.  At least not with <b>ANY</b> degree of safety.  At L70, with good gear, M1 CA's, and the right AA's, they can do it.  But again, not with any degree of consistency.  It requires perfect timing, use of potions, kiting, and a lot of luck.  Essentially stun lock- backstab a bit, snare kite, and go in for more backstabs when your stun lock CA's refresh 30-60 seconds later.  You don't think they're tanking it and taking the mobs hits the whole time, do you?  Many mages can solo yellow ^^^ too, using a similar principle.  Root+nuke.  Essentially, keep the mob from hitting you and it doesn't matter how hard it hits.  Any class with a strong snare or root setup can do this; some slower than others, but it's doable.  Again, let me reiterate that this requires a very specific setup and is highly dangerous... some bad resists or snare breaks and you're in for a serious hurting.  You'll still be taking a few hits here and there during the fight too, and some bad RNG rolls can drop you *fast*. For a more realistic assessment of what brigands can reliably solo at L70 with good gear, CA's, and the right AA's, without tricks like snare kiting, you're talking about green or low blue mobs.  67^^^ are a bit risky but still doable for me.  Higher than that and I'm risking an arsebeating. Talk to enchanters and wizards if you want to hear some good yellow ^^^ stories, everyone else that can do it is doing it at such a high risk of death that they don't do it except maybe to prove to themselves once that they can.  =) Xantinya wrote: <blockquote><p><span style="font-size: small"><b>And I'm talking mastercrafted gear, not raid gear (I'm guessing with raid gear I would be able to kill a blue heroic).  Yeah I can kill heroic mobs but certainly not few levels higher then me, not white either, and not blue either, they have to be very green.</b></span></p></blockquote> I'm not sure what you're doing wrong, but an SK in MC/AD3's (same setup that my SK has) should have no trouble soloing high green and low blue ^^^ mobs even in the lower tiers.  A well equipped T7 SK is a PvE beast.  How are your AA's set up?  My SK is T5 right now, with spell crits and points into some of the lifetap AA's, and Reaver.  Even without Reaver up, she solo's very well.  With that though, she'll tear through blue ^^^ without much pain at all.  The blessing line is fantastic... damage shield and lifetaps on a pretty fast recast is quite nice. Xantinya wrote: <blockquote><p><span style="font-size: small"><b>By all means I am not asking for a nerf on them (I HATE nerfs), but give us tanks better mit/avoid and more HPs, something to keep us alive longer at least.</b></span></p></blockquote> Tanks do their job just fine.  None of the non-tank classes that solo hard ^^^ mobs are doing it by standing in front of them taking hits.  Some kind of serious crowd control is <b>required</b> when mobs to-hit ratio and per-hit damage is enough to theoretically drop you in 5-10 hits.  Tanks (and tanking mechanics) are balanced around group and raid play, not set up so a solo guardian or zerker can soak damage from nasty ^^^ mobs without a healer to help.

shiftyt
04-01-2007, 01:15 AM
<cite>Ameniel wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Firamas wrote:</cite><blockquote> but for the sake of argument you can see that brigands are <span style="color: #ff0000">by no means the FoTM-most-overplayed class that some people like to claim. </span> They just tend to get up close and personal with more vigor, and people like to whine about perceived notions rather than research facts.  You wouldn't be the first person to try to prove a point by backing it up with like-minded claims from another account, but it's certainly suspect.  And even more pathetic if it's true.  Again, no hard claims, just an observation. edit/update: forgot one of the PvP servers... whoops >_< ... updated numbers for all 6 servers </blockquote><p> QFE</p><p>And for Shiftyt...who I really think is the OP lol...brigands have actually been nerfed several times, one of the biggest being the EoF nerfs</p></blockquote><p>Hold on i wasn't talking about toons less than 65.  If you want to talk about that, healers are over powered in the 20's but i'm talking 65-70. Your just tring to pad the numbers. At high levels, (- the botters ) most r scouts y dont you pull those numbers. And were talking active pvp not just those toons that r held in accounts for raiding only.</p><p>I mainly play 4 classes let me give the numbers in pvp kill vs death. this is in combination of groups and solo.</p><p>1. Zerker, kill vs death ratio (2 to 1)  <u>but granted this is a low level toon</u></p><p>2. Warlock, Kill vs death ratio (5 to 1)</p><p>3. Fury, Kill vs death ratio (3 to 1)  <u>this is my oldest by far so he has the most kills but he got those in his 20's</u></p><p>4. Swashy,  Kill vs death ratio  <span style="color: #cc0000"><b>(11 to 1)</b></span> <u>THis is my newsest toon and is second only in kills to my Fury but he is closing fast. I have far more playtime on the warlock and the fury than the swash. And to top it off i know of many other players that have switched to from a high level class to a Swashy or brigand. and raive about the difference. <b> See i can admit the truth even when i stand to lose.</b>  <b><i><span style="color: #3300ff">11 to 1 and i don't even consider myself much more that the average player</span></i></b></u></p><p>You can blow smoke all you want, everone knows the truth. Your just tring to protect your class. Just as swashies would.   Swashy/Brigands basicly the same.</p><p>And as far as my account goes. I been playing EQ almost the entire time its been around.  I read the forums for game information when i'm having difficulties. For the most part i prefer to enjoy the game rather than spend my time in here. But think what you will.</p><p>I stand by my earlier statement.  It does not Take much skill to get kills with a SWASHY or BRIGAND. But hey keep deluding yourself.</p><p><u>  </u></p>

Yage
04-02-2007, 04:35 AM
<p>I am a caster... I own brigs... Most on our server run from me solo now... </p><p>Every class has there krytopnite... just gotta find it.  I found it <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

Ameniel
04-02-2007, 06:41 PM
<cite>shiftyt wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>You can blow smoke all you want, everone knows the truth. Your just tring to protect your class. Just as swashies would.   Swashy/Brigands basicly the same.</p><p>I stand by my earlier statement.  It does not Take much skill to get kills with a SWASHY or BRIGAND. But hey keep deluding yourself.</p><p><u> </u></p></blockquote><p>It is pretty easy to get kills as a rogue, true enough. Tracking down & ganking noobs is not too difficult. Not many people get past this stage though or really understand what a rogue's full potential is & all the roles they can fill. Case in point is the many mediocre scouts out there. </p><p>On Venekor, surprisingly in t7 there are not a whole lot of scouts...relatively speaking that is. At least on the FP side. We can post population numbers all we want but when I was playing my main actively I noticed in t7 that our groups more often than not lacked trackers. And lacked good trackers even worse. Anyway...what got me started on a rogue was to fill this need within the group that I pvped with most often. </p><p>But what trips me out the most is when people like you point their fingers and in a knee-jerk fashion yell 'easy-mode' and 'your class doesnt require any skill(like this game requires any type of 'skill' anyway other than pointing & clicking with a mouse)' ...most likely because you get owned by scouts. </p><p>All I know is I LOVE sneaking up on casters and completely taking them down in a mere few seconds...and this is in t4, I bet it gets even faster later on... and only because I know some of them are gonna be people like you who are gonna go cry about it on the forums. To the good casters who've given me a run for my money(and even at least one who completely beat me) I say grats! To the rest like the above poster who cry about it....keep crying <img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p>

Firam
04-02-2007, 09:38 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><p>I am a caster... I own brigs... Most on our server run from me solo now... </p><p>Every class has there krytopnite... just gotta find it.  I found it <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote>I mentioned several times in this thread that well played enchanters are scary as hell, heh... unfortunately the OP plays a conjuror, who happens to not have many of the defensive/CC tools that enchanters & sorcerers get (or at least nowhere near as strong in many cases).  His class' strength lies in his pet... which is awesome for PVE, but not much of a distraction during PVP.  Probably something he should have thought about a bit (or more than a bit) before choosing a class that he knew centered around a pet.  Basically, he doesn't want brigands nerfed, he wants conjurors "fixed".  And it's a fix that's just not going to happen because they aren't broken. But anyway, yeah, illusionists are <i>disgustingly</i> powerful in 1v1 situations if played well.  I remember even back in T5/T6 when I'd run around solo there's always be one or two that I ran into during the evening and if I didn't absolutely lay them out right off the bat I might as well just give up.   That was back when in combat evac was still in, so at least I had a chance to maybe get that off and get away.

AbyssalSoul
04-02-2007, 10:45 PM
<span style="font-size: small"><b>"a brigand can kill a heroic few levels higher then him (and fast too), I can't even dream of doing that with my sk with similar gear, heck I can't even dream of killing a white heroic or even a blue one (I am talking about lvl 60+ to 70 chars)." </b>I'm not really sure how to quote people, so I just copied and pasted.  I have an ACCOUNT full of non-Brigand classes who can solo heroic mobs around my level.  My SK being the best of them, you can't go wrong with the Shadowknight Tree if you spec yourself right, almost every spell you do ends up healing you.  Actually, 1 on 1 I don't think I ever get much of a challenge with anything except maybe an illusionist or certain healers.  Just because YOU can't play your class right doesn't mean you should start picking classes and saying they are overpowered.  Every class has a tier that shines for them, maybe this tier just isn't yours... but really... [Removed for Content] about a Brigand when you are an SK?  That's pretty lame.  </span>

shiftyt
04-03-2007, 12:45 AM
<cite>Ameniel wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>shiftyt wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>You can blow smoke all you want, everone knows the truth. Your just tring to protect your class. Just as swashies would.   Swashy/Brigands basicly the same.</p><p>I stand by my earlier statement.  It does not Take much skill to get kills with a SWASHY or BRIGAND. But hey keep deluding yourself.</p><p><u> </u></p></blockquote><p>It is pretty easy to get kills as a rogue, true enough. Tracking down & ganking noobs is not too difficult. Not many people get past this stage though or really understand what a rogue's full potential is & all the roles they can fill. Case in point is the many mediocre scouts out there. </p><p>On Venekor, surprisingly in t7 there are not a whole lot of scouts...relatively speaking that is. At least on the FP side. We can post population numbers all we want but when I was playing my main actively I noticed in t7 that our groups more often than not lacked trackers. And lacked good trackers even worse. Anyway...what got me started on a rogue was to fill this need within the group that I pvped with most often. </p><p>But what trips me out the most is when people like you point their fingers and in a knee-jerk fashion yell 'easy-mode' and 'your class doesnt require any skill(like this game requires any type of 'skill' anyway other than pointing & clicking with a mouse)' ...most likely because you get owned by scouts. </p><p>All I know is I LOVE sneaking up on casters and completely taking them down in a mere few seconds...and this is in t4, I bet it gets even faster later on... and only because I know some of them are gonna be people like you who are gonna go cry about it on the forums. To the good casters who've given me a run for my money(and even at least one who completely beat me) I say grats! To the rest like the above poster who cry about it....keep crying </p></blockquote><p>Dude this is a <span style="color: #990000"><b><u>T7 issue </u></b></span>so why are you in it? PEOPLE THINGS ARE DIFFERENT at different levels. I have A mid 30's healer that no brigand in there 30's could 1 vs 1  and most of the time its the same with all scouts vs healers @ that level.  Here is the issue.</p><p>T7 full raid or pvp gear. if your not then please don't involve you little remarks they are clouding the subject.</p><p>A Brigand 1 vs 1 in full raid or pvp will win every time  against its opponent (full raid 0r pvp gear) with the following exceptions</p><p>1) The person bought the toon and is completly incompetent.</p><p>2) Oh crap I forgot my freedom of mind, Freeaction, or other item.</p><p>3) Its a swashy (god forbid it be a fair fight)</p><p>4) OMG Fusion actually hit (i can't believe he didn't resist it again i won the lottery). People remember most T7 raid geared have 6000 plus resists acrosses the board and most Brigands that pvp know its smart to get that cold resist up there even higher so wizzies are no factor at all. its not that hard to get solo cold resists up to 8500 +</p><p>The only exception to this i have seen is the warden, and not that they kill the brigand. They can just stand there and get beat on a little longer.</p><p>and to the poster above. Come to vox, i have a swashy, warlock and a fury in your mini range. <b><u>Come get powned</u></b>!!!!</p>

Firam
04-03-2007, 01:07 AM
<cite>shiftyt wrote:</cite><blockquote>Firamas wrote: <blockquote><blockquote> but for the sake of argument you can see that brigands are <span style="color: #ff0000">by no means the FoTM-most-overplayed class that some people like to claim. </span> They just tend to get up close and personal with more vigor, and people like to whine about perceived notions rather than research facts. </blockquote></blockquote><p>Hold on i wasn't talking about toons less than 65.  If you want to talk about that, healers are over powered in the 20's but i'm talking 65-70. Your just tring to pad the numbers. At high levels, (- the botters ) most r scouts y dont you pull those numbers. And were talking active pvp not just those toons that r held in accounts for raiding only.</p> </blockquote> Well, no one can do an accurate census that breaks it down by toons held for raiding only (which isn't that large of a percentage).  But anyway, here's the L65-70 numbers, PvP servers only, 15-20% already subtracted from wiz/fury numbers for bot designation.  I color coded by their raid icon designation for ease of viewing. <span style="font-family: courier new,courier"><span style="color: #0066ff">Illusionist    56</span> <span style="color: #33ff00">Mystic         59</span> <span style="color: #ff0000">Paladin        73</span> <span style="color: #33ff00">Templar        79</span> <span style="color: #ffff00">Troubador      84</span> <span style="color: #0000ff">Coercer        94</span> <span style="color: #33ff00">Inquisitor     95 Defiler        114</span> <span style="color: #ffff00">Swashbuckler   118 Dirge          125</span> <span style="color: #0000ff">Conjuror       125</span> <span style="color: #ff0000">Monk           145 Shadow Knight  146</span> <span style="color: #ffff00">Ranger         156</span> <span style="color: #ff0000">Guardian       160</span> <span style="color: #3300ff">Warlock        171</span> <span style="color: #66ff00">Warden         191</span> <span style="color: #ff0000">Berserker      212</span> <span style="color: #ffff00">Assassin       227 Brigand        234</span> <span style="color: #ff0000">Bruiser        237</span> <span style="color: #3300ff">Necromancer    244</span> <span style="color: #3300ff">Wizard         266</span> <span style="color: #66ff00">Fury           321</span> </span>The top 4 are not scouts, and in the top 10 there are only 2 scout classes.  This is all-faction data added together.   The FP classes seem to be more played than the Q's, and that would make sense with the date that this census was last done (November).  Read the Nagafen boards around that time, it was very FP-heavy as far as the faction balance... however in the 4-5 months since then there has been a huge shift, including entire endgame raiding guilds, towards the exile or all the way over to Q factions.  The FPers on Nagafen are now complaining about the same kind of faction imbalance that went the other way half a year ago.  I think it's kind of amusing. =)  Regardless, that would definitely shift the numbers some towards the Q side, but we don't have a current census to check that against.  If someone wants to pick that program back up again it'd be appreciated! Also, fortunately, the class that rocks me the hardest 1v1 is the least played class ;)

Xantinya
04-03-2007, 01:12 AM
<p>I knew when I posted my message that some smarta would tell me I don't know how to play a sk, well I do know how to play my sk thank you.  I will only give you this, I don't have 100 AAs yet, I have around 70 so still a few to go, maybe once I get them all I would be able to kill blue heroics easily but I just can't tell yet.  However my spells are masters for the most part with a few adept3s.   And the lines I picked in the sk tree are the reaver and the hate lines, I tank often for groups so I needed that line as well.</p><p>I could continue arguing about how fast a brig/swash can kill a mob vs a sk/guard etc, but it would just be a waste of my time, I have seen with my own eyes how fast a brig can kill a blue heroic and its much faster then any tank, and I have also seen a friend kill a heroic 1 or 2 levels higher then him and win with about 3/4 of his health left (and his gear is mc not fabled for the most part). </p><p>Maybe one day your sk/guard/berz will be lvl 70 and you will get a chance to pvp 1 vs 1 on a pvp server against a swash or a brig (I don't mention pallies because I don't have one on a pvp server and I'm not sure how well they do vs brigs), also lvl 70, the swash/brig can be lower level then you even, needless to say both with similar quality gear, and see how fast you die, plain and simple (and not in the arena it is totally different, not on a pve server either, duels are different then pvp on a pvp server).</p><p>And again I will repeat this, to the one who says to group, yes I do most the time, but sometimes I like to harvest and I don't want a whole group waiting for me while I harvest, so yes sometimes I solo, and as I said many scouts do solo on pvp servers because guess what they are good at it.</p><p> And to the one who has a caster and says he owns brigs or swash, yes I know you can, especially if you get the first hit, you have root and nukes, which I don't have, except my HT every 15 minutes.  I also have a t7 wizzie and she can hit much much harder then my tank, as long as she can root and/or have the first hit she wins. </p><p> Also some of you (I'm guessing your main is a brig or swash) react as if I was asking for a nerf on you, but I am not, I am asking for more HPs and more mit/avoi for tanks, and more effective taunts (try taking aggro back from a brig or a swash, unless they use their transfer aggro buff it takes a while most the time).  As it is, with similar gear, brigs have about as much hps as tanks and their mit (avoi in their case) is about as good as tanks also.  Yes I know you wouldnt think of having a brig or a swash tank a raid, they dont have as much taunts and such, but they can tank a group without a problem.</p>

Titan-X
04-03-2007, 02:17 PM
OMG I had to apologize to myself for reading this entire thread…. OP: did you by chance, go back through the board and read about brigands? I only ask this because it has been discussed countless time that a brigand is a very powerful class. Had you done your research you would have discovered that not long ago SOE did something about it…You start your thread with “I am not whining”, yet page after page this is a veiled call for the further nerfing of a class and you whining about getting owned. All I can say is “Welcome to the wonderful world of PvP”, if you played a class to T7 and you don’t like what you see you have a few options. Suck it up, go play another game or reroll. Easy as 1,2,3..

Wytie
04-03-2007, 03:51 PM
<cite>Xantinya wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I knew when I posted my message that some smarta would tell me I don't know how to play a sk, well I do know how to play my sk thank you.  I will only give you this, I don't have 100 AAs yet, I have around 70 so still a few to go, maybe once I get them all I would be able to kill blue heroics easily but I just can't tell yet.  However my spells are masters for the most part with a few adept3s.   And the lines I picked in the sk tree are the reaver and the hate lines, I tank often for groups so I needed that line as well.</p><p>I could continue arguing about how fast a brig/swash can kill a mob vs a sk/guard etc, but it would just be a waste of my time, I have seen with my own eyes how fast a brig can kill a blue heroic and its much faster then any tank, and I have also seen a friend kill a heroic 1 or 2 levels higher then him and win with about 3/4 of his health left (and his gear is mc not fabled for the most part). </p><p>Maybe one day your sk/guard/berz will be lvl 70 and you will get a chance to pvp 1 vs 1 on a pvp server against a swash or a brig (I don't mention pallies because I don't have one on a pvp server and I'm not sure how well they do vs brigs), also lvl 70, the swash/brig can be lower level then you even, needless to say both with similar quality gear, and see how fast you die, plain and simple (and not in the arena it is totally different, not on a pve server either, duels are different then pvp on a pvp server).</p><p>And again I will repeat this, to the one who says to group, yes I do most the time, but sometimes I like to harvest and I don't want a whole group waiting for me while I harvest, so yes sometimes I solo, and as I said many scouts do solo on pvp servers because guess what they are good at it.</p><p> And to the one who has a caster and says he owns brigs or swash, yes I know you can, especially if you get the first hit, you have root and nukes, which I don't have, except my HT every 15 minutes.  I also have a t7 wizzie and she can hit much much harder then my tank, as long as she can root and/or have the first hit she wins. </p><p> Also some of you (I'm guessing your main is a brig or swash) react as if I was asking for a nerf on you, but I am not, I am asking for more HPs and more mit/avoi for tanks, and more effective taunts (try taking aggro back from a brig or a swash, unless they use their transfer aggro buff it takes a while most the time).  As it is, with similar gear, brigs have about as much hps as tanks and their mit (avoi in their case) is about as good as tanks also.  Yes I know you wouldnt think of having a brig or a swash tank a raid, they dont have as much taunts and such, but they can tank a group without a problem.</p></blockquote>i agree with this if your a SK and you dont have your ward up b4 the swash jumps you your toast end of story HT or not....

Randell44
04-03-2007, 07:43 PM
Insta-gank= crappy pvp mechanic.  Takes little to nothing to accomplish normally (lol it's instant after all) and only encourages bad feelings.  I daresay if wizzies started insta-ganking people as consistantly and often they would be insta-nerfed lol.

Yage
04-04-2007, 11:37 AM
<cite>Xantinya wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I knew when I posted my message that some smarta would tell me I don't know how to play a sk, well I do know how to play my sk thank you.  I will only give you this, I don't have 100 AAs yet, I have around 70 so still a few to go, maybe once I get them all I would be able to kill blue heroics easily but I just can't tell yet.  However my spells are masters for the most part with a few adept3s.   And the lines I picked in the sk tree are the reaver and the hate lines, I tank often for groups so I needed that line as well.</p><p>I could continue arguing about how fast a brig/swash can kill a mob vs a sk/guard etc, but it would just be a waste of my time, I have seen with my own eyes how fast a brig can kill a blue heroic and its much faster then any tank, and I have also seen a friend kill a heroic 1 or 2 levels higher then him and win with about 3/4 of his health left (and his gear is mc not fabled for the most part). </p><p>Maybe one day your sk/guard/berz will be lvl 70 and you will get a chance to pvp 1 vs 1 on a pvp server against a swash or a brig (I don't mention pallies because I don't have one on a pvp server and I'm not sure how well they do vs brigs), also lvl 70, the swash/brig can be lower level then you even, needless to say both with similar quality gear, and see how fast you die, plain and simple (and not in the arena it is totally different, not on a pve server either, duels are different then pvp on a pvp server).</p><p>And again I will repeat this, to the one who says to group, yes I do most the time, but sometimes I like to harvest and I don't want a whole group waiting for me while I harvest, so yes sometimes I solo, and as I said many scouts do solo on pvp servers because guess what they are good at it.</p><p> And to the one who has a caster and says he owns brigs or swash, yes I know you can, especially if you get the first hit, you have root and nukes, which I don't have, except my HT every 15 minutes.  I also have a t7 wizzie and she can hit much much harder then my tank, as long as she can root and/or have the first hit she wins. </p><p> Also some of you (I'm guessing your main is a brig or swash) react as if I was asking for a nerf on you, but I am not, I am asking for more HPs and more mit/avoi for tanks, and more effective taunts (try taking aggro back from a brig or a swash, unless they use their transfer aggro buff it takes a while most the time).  As it is, with similar gear, brigs have about as much hps as tanks and their mit (avoi in their case) is about as good as tanks also.  Yes I know you wouldnt think of having a brig or a swash tank a raid, they dont have as much taunts and such, but they can tank a group without a problem.</p></blockquote>I use to uterlly embaress SKs is pvp... seriously bad!  But then EoF came out and they got some type of reactive heal, now i am useless against them... look into that spec, i know it has made a few SKs that use to be cake to kill hard as hell to kill solo for most of my guild. Can't tell you how many times i have gotten an sk to the red jsut to see them go to full health as if an inquis cast 3 reactives on them.

Wytie
04-04-2007, 12:16 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><cite>Xantinya wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I knew when I posted my message that some smarta would tell me I don't know how to play a sk, well I do know how to play my sk thank you.  I will only give you this, I don't have 100 AAs yet, I have around 70 so still a few to go, maybe once I get them all I would be able to kill blue heroics easily but I just can't tell yet.  However my spells are masters for the most part with a few adept3s.   And the lines I picked in the sk tree are the reaver and the hate lines, I tank often for groups so I needed that line as well.</p><p>I could continue arguing about how fast a brig/swash can kill a mob vs a sk/guard etc, but it would just be a waste of my time, I have seen with my own eyes how fast a brig can kill a blue heroic and its much faster then any tank, and I have also seen a friend kill a heroic 1 or 2 levels higher then him and win with about 3/4 of his health left (and his gear is mc not fabled for the most part). </p><p>Maybe one day your sk/guard/berz will be lvl 70 and you will get a chance to pvp 1 vs 1 on a pvp server against a swash or a brig (I don't mention pallies because I don't have one on a pvp server and I'm not sure how well they do vs brigs), also lvl 70, the swash/brig can be lower level then you even, needless to say both with similar quality gear, and see how fast you die, plain and simple (and not in the arena it is totally different, not on a pve server either, duels are different then pvp on a pvp server).</p><p>And again I will repeat this, to the one who says to group, yes I do most the time, but sometimes I like to harvest and I don't want a whole group waiting for me while I harvest, so yes sometimes I solo, and as I said many scouts do solo on pvp servers because guess what they are good at it.</p><p> And to the one who has a caster and says he owns brigs or swash, yes I know you can, especially if you get the first hit, you have root and nukes, which I don't have, except my HT every 15 minutes.  I also have a t7 wizzie and she can hit much much harder then my tank, as long as she can root and/or have the first hit she wins. </p><p> Also some of you (I'm guessing your main is a brig or swash) react as if I was asking for a nerf on you, but I am not, I am asking for more HPs and more mit/avoi for tanks, and more effective taunts (try taking aggro back from a brig or a swash, unless they use their transfer aggro buff it takes a while most the time).  As it is, with similar gear, brigs have about as much hps as tanks and their mit (avoi in their case) is about as good as tanks also.  Yes I know you wouldnt think of having a brig or a swash tank a raid, they dont have as much taunts and such, but they can tank a group without a problem.</p></blockquote>I use to uterlly embaress SKs is pvp... seriously bad!  But then EoF came out and they got some type of reactive heal, now i am useless against them... look into that spec, i know it has made a few SKs that use to be cake to kill hard as hell to kill solo for most of my guild. Can't tell you how many times i have gotten an sk to the red jsut to see them go to full health as if an inquis cast 3 reactives on them. </blockquote>ahhh Yage you can come embaress me anytime in Long shadow TS  <img src="/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Ameniel
04-04-2007, 12:48 PM
<cite>shiftyt wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>and to the poster above. Come to vox, i have a swashy, warlock and a fury in your mini range. <b><u>Come get powned</u></b>!!!!</p></blockquote><p>OMG yeah I'm gonna roll on Vox just so I can fight your swashy! Lol...</p><p>Btw my main is in t7 you [Removed for Content], I do know how t7 pvp is. Casters can still own in t7 quite well, granted it can get tough for them. But the good ones don't go around shouting for other classes to be nerfed. </p>

dnice74
04-05-2007, 11:07 AM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><p>I am a caster... I own brigs... Most on our server run from me solo now... </p><p>Every class has there krytopnite... just gotta find it.  I found it <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote><p> <span style="color: #00cc00">Edit: whoops, forgot to read the sig again. D'oh. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">And what is your level?  </span></p>

dnice74
04-05-2007, 11:09 AM
<cite>Ameniel wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>shiftyt wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>You can blow smoke all you want, everone knows the truth. Your just tring to protect your class. Just as swashies would.   Swashy/Brigands basicly the same.</p><p>I stand by my earlier statement.  It does not Take much skill to get kills with a SWASHY or BRIGAND. But hey keep deluding yourself.</p><p><u> </u></p></blockquote><p>It is pretty easy to get kills as a rogue, true enough. Tracking down & ganking noobs is not too difficult. Not many people get past this stage though or really understand what a rogue's full potential is & all the roles they can fill. Case in point is the many mediocre scouts out there. </p><p>On Venekor, surprisingly in t7 there are not a whole lot of scouts...relatively speaking that is. At least on the FP side. We can post population numbers all we want but when I was playing my main actively I noticed in t7 that our groups more often than not lacked trackers. And lacked good trackers even worse. Anyway...what got me started on a rogue was to fill this need within the group that I pvped with most often. </p><p>But what trips me out the most is when people like you point their fingers and in a knee-jerk fashion yell 'easy-mode' and 'your class doesnt require any skill(like this game requires any type of 'skill' anyway other than pointing & clicking with a mouse)' ...most likely because you get owned by scouts. </p><p><span style="color: #ff0000">All I know is I LOVE sneaking up on casters and completely taking them down in a mere few seconds...and this is in t4, I bet it gets even faster later on... and only because I know some of them are gonna be people like you who are gonna go cry about it on the forums. To the good casters who've given me a run for my money(and even at least one who completely beat me) I say grats! To the rest like the above poster who cry about it....keep crying <img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span> </p></blockquote><span style="color: #00cc00">Thanks for helping to prove my point, even if you are in the wrong tier. It gets even easier for you. </span>

dnice74
04-05-2007, 11:13 AM
<cite>Firamas wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>shiftyt wrote:</cite><blockquote>Firamas wrote: <blockquote><blockquote> but for the sake of argument you can see that brigands are <span style="color: #ff0000">by no means the FoTM-most-overplayed class that some people like to claim. </span> They just tend to get up close and personal with more vigor, and people like to whine about perceived notions rather than research facts. </blockquote></blockquote><p>Hold on i wasn't talking about toons less than 65.  If you want to talk about that, healers are over powered in the 20's but i'm talking 65-70. Your just tring to pad the numbers. At high levels, (- the botters ) most r scouts y dont you pull those numbers. And were talking active pvp not just those toons that r held in accounts for raiding only.</p> </blockquote> Well, no one can do an accurate census that breaks it down by toons held for raiding only (which isn't that large of a percentage).  But anyway, here's the L65-70 numbers, PvP servers only, 15-20% already subtracted from wiz/fury numbers for bot designation.  I color coded by their raid icon designation for ease of viewing. <span style="font-family: courier new,courier"><span style="color: #0066ff">Illusionist    56</span> <span style="color: #33ff00">Mystic         59</span> <span style="color: #ff0000">Paladin        73</span> <span style="color: #33ff00">Templar        79</span> <span style="color: #ffff00">Troubador      84</span> <span style="color: #0000ff">Coercer        94</span> <span style="color: #33ff00">Inquisitor     95 Defiler        114</span> <span style="color: #ffff00">Swashbuckler   118 Dirge          125</span> <span style="color: #0000ff">Conjuror       125</span> <span style="color: #ff0000">Monk           145 Shadow Knight  146</span> <span style="color: #ffff00">Ranger         156</span> <span style="color: #ff0000">Guardian       160</span> <span style="color: #3300ff">Warlock        171</span> <span style="color: #66ff00">Warden         191</span> <span style="color: #ff0000">Berserker      212</span> <span style="color: #ffff00">Assassin       227 Brigand        234</span> <span style="color: #ff0000">Bruiser        237</span> <span style="color: #3300ff">Necromancer    244</span> <span style="color: #3300ff">Wizard         266</span> <span style="color: #66ff00">Fury           321</span> </span>The top 4 are not scouts, and in the top 10 there are only 2 scout classes.  This is all-faction data added together.   The FP classes seem to be more played than the Q's, and that would make sense with the date that this census was last done (November).  Read the Nagafen boards around that time, it was very FP-heavy as far as the faction balance... however in the 4-5 months since then there has been a huge shift, including entire endgame raiding guilds, towards the exile or all the way over to Q factions.  The FPers on Nagafen are now complaining about the same kind of faction imbalance that went the other way half a year ago.  I think it's kind of amusing. =)  Regardless, that would definitely shift the numbers some towards the Q side, but we don't have a current census to check that against.  If someone wants to pick that program back up again it'd be appreciated! Also, fortunately, the class that rocks me the hardest 1v1 is the least played class <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote> Hi honey. Still clouding the issue, I see. You could also say that Brigands are the most played scout class, and that there are tons of them in relation to most other classes. But way to tilt your response.

Wytie
04-05-2007, 11:14 AM
durn this thread keeps going & going & going.........      <img src="/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

dnice74
04-05-2007, 11:18 AM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>OMG I had to apologize to myself for reading this entire thread…. OP: did you by chance, go back through the board and read about brigands? I only ask this because it has been discussed countless time that a brigand is a very powerful class. Had you done your research you would have discovered that not long ago SOE did something about it…You start your thread with “I am not whining”, yet page after page this is a veiled call for the further nerfing of a class and you whining about getting owned. All I can say is “Welcome to the wonderful world of PvP”, if you played a class to T7 and you don’t like what you see you have a few options. Suck it up, go play another game or reroll. Easy as 1,2,3.. </blockquote><p> <span style="color: #00cc00">Hi noob: did you by chance, read through this thread....at all? "Welcome to the wonderful world of pvp?" r...o...f...l. Again - did you read this thread? I suggest you do so before you come here with such inane statements. Your statement adds nothing to this conversation, you clearly didn't read the entire thread, and for some reason your post reeks of someone who is T5 and shouldn't be here to begin with, like many others in this thread. </span></p><p><span style="font-size: medium"><span style="color: #00cc00">EDIT: Here is the clincher that you didn't read this thread: you're in QG? You read this thread, and you don't know who I am by now? I love it when my own guild members don't pay attention. I'll be looking for an apology tonight, [Removed for Content]. </span></span></p>

Bozidar
04-05-2007, 11:23 AM
<cite>Wytie wrote:</cite><blockquote>durn this thread keeps going & going & going.........      <img src="/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote><p> It's like it's the energizer bunny's bung hole, after he's had too much Taco Bell.. the <a href="mailto:[email protected]" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">[email protected]</a> just keeps coming out, and it won't stop.. </p>

Espyderman
04-05-2007, 12:00 PM
<cite>Firamas wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's sailwind... 25% redux in cast and reuse (not cooldown) time -- i.e. chaining arts faster.  Plus double up.  Double up is instant cast.  All CA's are 0.5 seconds cast and reuse (redux to 0.375 after sailwind).  Thus 0.75 seconds per art.  Thus, 6 arts in 2 seconds.  That's close to being enough (or with lucky RNG rolls, enough) to kill a mage who got jumped and isn't warded in some manner.  That's what you're seeing.  And it's probably pretty traumatic in itself, sure. There is no bug where they're dropping dozens of CA's on you instantly.  I'd like to see combat logs with timestamps to prove your claims, bud. </blockquote><p> If in a PVP fight with an opponent of the same approximate level and it lasts less then 5 seconds, their is something wrong with the system. Im not putting up numbers or anything either this is just plain old logic.</p><p> Seriously, who wants to play on a PVP server to have 5 second fights? What kind of strategy would that employ besides hopelessly mashing buttons and praying for miracles (and using them too)?</p>

Bozidar
04-05-2007, 12:04 PM
<cite>Espyderman wrote:</cite><blockquote>If in a PVP fight with an opponent of the same approximate level and it lasts less then 5 seconds, their is something wrong with the system. Im not putting up numbers or anything either this is just plain old logic.</blockquote><p> If in a pvp fight with an opponent who's only approximate equality to you is his level, then all bets are off on how long the fight lasts.</p><p>If in a pvp fight where a hunting class gets the jump on a hiding class... all bets are off, regardless of gear or level equality.</p><p>If in a pvp fight... get a group, and fights will last a lot longer.  It's almost as if they <i>designed</i> it that way.. it's creepy!!</p>

dnice74
04-05-2007, 12:05 PM
<cite>Espyderman wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Firamas wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's sailwind... 25% redux in cast and reuse (not cooldown) time -- i.e. chaining arts faster.  Plus double up.  Double up is instant cast.  All CA's are 0.5 seconds cast and reuse (redux to 0.375 after sailwind).  Thus 0.75 seconds per art.  Thus, 6 arts in 2 seconds.  That's close to being enough (or with lucky RNG rolls, enough) to kill a mage who got jumped and isn't warded in some manner.  That's what you're seeing.  And it's probably pretty traumatic in itself, sure. There is no bug where they're dropping dozens of CA's on you instantly.  I'd like to see combat logs with timestamps to prove your claims, bud. </blockquote><p> If in a PVP fight with an opponent of the same approximate level and it lasts less then 5 seconds, their is something wrong with the system. Im not putting up numbers or anything either this is just plain old logic.</p><p> Seriously, who wants to play on a PVP server to have 5 second fights? What kind of strategy would that employ besides hopelessly mashing buttons and praying for miracles (and using them too)?</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Please do not make sense on this thread, it scares people. All PvP fights should last .3 seconds, just because. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">(that was a joke, I obviously agree with you)</span> </p>

dnice74
04-05-2007, 12:18 PM
<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Espyderman wrote:</cite><blockquote>If in a PVP fight with an opponent of the same approximate level and it lasts less then 5 seconds, their is something wrong with the system. Im not putting up numbers or anything either this is just plain old logic.</blockquote><p> If in a pvp fight with an opponent who's only approximate equality to you is his level, then all bets are off on how long the fight lasts.</p><p>If in a pvp fight where a hunting class gets the jump on a hiding class... all bets are off, regardless of gear or level equality.</p><p>If in a pvp fight... get a group, and fights will last a lot longer.  It's almost as if they <i>designed</i> it that way.. it's creepy!!</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Did you ding 70 lately? Are you mostly fabled/legendary with all masters/ad3's? No? When you can answer yes to both of these questions, come back and contribute to this thread. Until then, no one cares. You don't know what is happening here, and your opinion still continues to mean nothing. But please, keep spouting "get a group", as if that will magically change the problems here. </span> </p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">And now come the flames.</span> </p>

Bozidar
04-05-2007, 12:22 PM
Get a group.  It's a group game, in pvp too.  Hope that helps you.

dnice74
04-05-2007, 12:43 PM
<p><span style="color: #00cc00">Let's pull this back a minute. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">I talked with one of the people who I assumed is one of the offenders of the "hack" in question (Famine). Had a good chat with him, then we did some one-on-one with his guardian. Was a good time.</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">He says he's not hacking; fine. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't. I know there are others out there who get booted for it, I know hacks exist. I have repeatedly said that if my original thrust in this thread was wrong, there is a huge problem here with scout vs. caster balance. He even agreed that they could stand to be toned down a little. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Many many many other scouts openly boast about how they own casters, and they say "well we are supposed to." 13 pages, and my answer hasn't changed: bs. Why should I have all this PvP gear? Why raid? Why do anything when I know a scout is on me? </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">And to the devs - if they are still even here, I know they probably won't respond - maybe it is something about the very-well geared scouts, I don't know. All I know is, sub-3 second fights are lame when you have two people of similar gear and level. Yes, I beat brigands(of lesser gear). Yes, Famine is one of the best geared on the server and is good at what he does. Yes, I have beaten him solo....once. No, brigands are still not balanced against casters. No, I do not want them gimped. Keep in mind, I want gear to matter. If I'm well-geared, I want to crush enemies who aren't in a short amount of time, and I often do. But what they can do now is unstoppable. One last thing: PvP is not horribly out of whack, but there is still some balancing to do. </span> </p>

dnice74
04-05-2007, 12:46 PM
<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote>Get a group.  It's a group game, in pvp too.  Hope that helps you.</blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Keep telling yourself that's all it is if that's what helps you sleep at night. Oh, and by the way, Mr. T5 - if I'm in a group, they will still tear me up then, too. But I'm sure you'll have another witty retort for that one as well. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Why don't you go level up one of those [Removed for Content] toons and stop talking, mmmmkay? </span></p>

Bozidar
04-05-2007, 01:44 PM
<p>my toons will level up when... *gasp*.. they're GROUPS are ready to level up <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>As it is i have more game time than my compatriots.. so i'm ready before most of them.  But i don't mind waiting for them. Know why?</p><p>Cuz it's a group game.</p><p>When i group, i get so much.  I get better avoidance, better mitigation, more health, more resists, more dps, and oh so very much utility.  It's fantastic.  Sometimes i can get into solo mode and then when i group i start to think "I can't believe the game designers accidentally made it so that i'm so frigging awesome when grouped compared to solo"</p><p>Oh, wait.. they DIDN'T. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

dnice74
04-05-2007, 02:33 PM
<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>my toons will level up when... *gasp*.. they're GROUPS are ready to level up <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>As it is i have more game time than my compatriots.. so i'm ready before most of them.  But i don't mind waiting for them. Know why?</p><p>Cuz it's a group game.</p><p>When i group, i get so much.  I get better avoidance, better mitigation, more health, more resists, more dps, and oh so very much utility.  It's fantastic.  Sometimes i can get into solo mode and then when i group i start to think "I can't believe the game designers accidentally made it so that i'm so frigging awesome when grouped compared to solo"</p><p>Oh, wait.. they DIDN'T. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Your stubbornness would be commendable if you made any sense whatsoever. As it is, you just continue to make a fool out of yourself. But as part of your education: healers aren't going to keep me up if a brig doing this is on me, but I suppose you'd like to debate that too, even though you're not in T7 and have no clue what you are talking about. Please enlighten me, he of many lame alts. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">This is a group game??? No, really? WOW! Thanks, I had no idea. Man, I get it now! This is awesome, because I have never ever joined a group before. I've gotta tell you, it is hard soloing entire groups in PvP, instances, or raid zones. This will make things so much better for me! </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Maybe I should just drop my playstyle entirely! Or maybe I should just get a group together every single time I want to go out, because that's always feasible. Or maybe on those times when one is out, I should run around in circles or go hit an instance, because CLEARLY the devs didn't want people to solo, EVER. And clearly, "get a group" AUTOMATICALLY fixes all imbalances. No, leave brigs alone, those noob casters died in < 3 seconds because they didn't have a group! </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">It's slow at work today, so if you'd like to keep up with your ignorant arguments, please continue. Sadly, I enjoy dissecting moronic comments, so you are entertaining me. Then again, I've never been very patient, so maybe I'll just go back to ignoring you. I was getting good at it in this thread.   </span></p>

Bozidar
04-05-2007, 02:44 PM
<p>Ah, yes, you were getting good at ignoring me when i stopped posting.  Grats <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>In group pvp a player shouldn't get the drop on you, and be able to single you out so quickly, if your group plays right.</p><p>And by grouping i mean, think it through, just don't get a bunch of conjs and think "ooo, we're grouped, now we can't lose!"</p><p>Ain't like that.</p><p>Let me take it slow for you, since you obviously can't figure this out for yourself.  Maybe you just get some kind of sick e-peene from playing the way you do and whining when you know what you should really be doing, but i'll just assume ignorance for now -- seems like they're equally possible though.</p><p>If you're grouped right, you have:</p><p>A scout, with totems up, to keep an eye on what and who are around you.  Yes, folks can still jump in off a carpet, griffon, cloud, ect.. and they can get the jump on your group that way, but by the time they cycle through who's there and target the EASY kill (a.k.a. the clothy) your scout should have targetd the enemy and hit his "enemy alert" macro, and the rest of the group should have begun their work too..</p><p>A tank, with good taunts and nice utility to keep an enemy player under control in so many ways.  In the scenario above alls he has to do is target the scout, and begin taunting  the enemy off, and lock him down.</p><p>A healer, wards are preferable in many cases because they can often times be up WHEN you get jumped where as HoTs are nice.. they're not as good as wards <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Healers provide tons of utility, but their primary job is to heal.. so if you DO get jumped.. your tank (who taunts, remember?) should be fine.</p><p>A clothy.. lots of things to do here, but i'd start with CC.  That's what I look for in a clothy anyway.  Stifles, stuns, mezzes, ect.  Know those mezzes that you never use in pvp because they make no sense?  They make sense in group pvp.. </p><p>And two more of the above.  Doesn't make much sense to have two tanks unless one is spec'd for dps, but i'd suggest if you have a druid, get a non-druid priest.. and vise versa.  If you have a pred/rogue, get a bard to fill a slot.  If you have a sorcerer.. get a chanter.  If you have a summoner... well, any other clothy and you won't get a ton of overlap of what a summoner brings (especially necro, from what i've seen).</p><p>k, hope that group tutorial helps <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  It's fundamental to the game, tier of play doesn't change a [Removed for Content] thing. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

Xova
04-05-2007, 04:20 PM
<cite>dnice74 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Let's pull this back a minute. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">I talked with one of the people who I assumed is one of the offenders of the "hack" in question (Famine). Had a good chat with him, then we did some one-on-one with his guardian. Was a good time.</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">He says he's not hacking; fine. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't. I know there are others out there who get booted for it, I know hacks exist. I have repeatedly said that if my original thrust in this thread was wrong, there is a huge problem here with scout vs. caster balance. He even agreed that they could stand to be toned down a little. </span></p></blockquote><p>I'm pretty sure I know what he is doing, and it's not hacking. Creative use of in-game mechanics at most, but not a hack.</p><p>I believe the key is macros and Double-up (an attack that repeats the <b><i><u>previous 2 seconds</u></i></b> of certain combat arts). Macro together a few CA's with .5 second casts, hit Double-up, and you get the 5-second fights people are complaining about. </p>

Ameniel
04-05-2007, 04:46 PM
<cite>dnice74 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="font-size: medium"><span style="color: #00cc00">EDIT: Here is the clincher that you didn't read this thread: you're in QG? <span style="color: #ff0000">You read this thread, and you don't know who I am by now? I love it when my own guild members don't pay attention.</span> I'll be looking for an apology tonight, [I cannot control my vocabulary]. </span></span></p></blockquote>Lol even your own guildies think you're a tool.

Wytie
04-05-2007, 05:18 PM
<cite>Ameniel wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>dnice74 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="font-size: medium"><span style="color: #00cc00">EDIT: Here is the clincher that you didn't read this thread: you're in QG? <span style="color: #ff0000">You read this thread, and you don't know who I am by now? I love it when my own guild members don't pay attention.</span> I'll be looking for an apology tonight, [I cannot control my vocabulary]. </span></span></p></blockquote>Lol even your own guildies think you're a tool. </blockquote><img src="http://media.urbandictionary.com/image/page/owned-17632.jpg" border="0">

dnice74
04-05-2007, 05:36 PM
<cite>Xova wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>dnice74 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Let's pull this back a minute. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">I talked with one of the people who I assumed is one of the offenders of the "hack" in question (Famine). Had a good chat with him, then we did some one-on-one with his guardian. Was a good time.</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">He says he's not hacking; fine. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't. I know there are others out there who get booted for it, I know hacks exist. I have repeatedly said that if my original thrust in this thread was wrong, there is a huge problem here with scout vs. caster balance. He even agreed that they could stand to be toned down a little. </span></p></blockquote><p>I'm pretty sure I know what he is doing, and it's not hacking. Creative use of in-game mechanics at most, but not a hack.</p><p>I believe the key is macros and Double-up (an attack that repeats the <b><i><u>previous 2 seconds</u></i></b> of certain combat arts). Macro together a few CA's with .5 second casts, hit Double-up, and you get the 5-second fights people are complaining about. </p></blockquote><span style="color: #00cc00">Geez, Xova. I know you're trying to be helpful, so I will not bash you. But this has only been brought up about 17 zillion times in the thread. </span>

dnice74
04-05-2007, 05:37 PM
<cite>Ameniel wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>dnice74 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="font-size: medium"><span style="color: #00cc00">EDIT: Here is the clincher that you didn't read this thread: you're in QG? <span style="color: #ff0000">You read this thread, and you don't know who I am by now? I love it when my own guild members don't pay attention.</span> I'll be looking for an apology tonight, [I cannot control my vocabulary]. </span></span></p></blockquote>Lol even your own guildies think you're a tool. </blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00">I actually think he was more interested in joining the "bash the op" bandwagon and didn't read the thread. If he doesn't like me, that's fine. I'm sure he's not the only one. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">If you're quite finished with the "pwned" screenshots, let's get it back on topic. </span> </p>

dnice74
04-05-2007, 05:43 PM
<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Ah, yes, you were getting good at ignoring me when i stopped posting.  Grats <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>In group pvp a player shouldn't get the drop on you, and be able to single you out so quickly, if your group plays right.</p><p>And by grouping i mean, think it through, just don't get a bunch of conjs and think "ooo, we're grouped, now we can't lose!"</p><p>Ain't like that.</p><p>Let me take it slow for you, since you obviously can't figure this out for yourself.  Maybe you just get some kind of sick e-peene from playing the way you do and whining when you know what you should really be doing, but i'll just assume ignorance for now -- seems like they're equally possible though.</p><p>If you're grouped right, you have:</p><p>A scout, with totems up, to keep an eye on what and who are around you.  Yes, folks can still jump in off a carpet, griffon, cloud, ect.. and they can get the jump on your group that way, but by the time they cycle through who's there and target the EASY kill (a.k.a. the clothy) your scout should have targetd the enemy and hit his "enemy alert" macro, and the rest of the group should have begun their work too..</p><p>A tank, with good taunts and nice utility to keep an enemy player under control in so many ways.  In the scenario above alls he has to do is target the scout, and begin taunting  the enemy off, and lock him down.</p><p>A healer, wards are preferable in many cases because they can often times be up WHEN you get jumped where as HoTs are nice.. they're not as good as wards <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Healers provide tons of utility, but their primary job is to heal.. so if you DO get jumped.. your tank (who taunts, remember?) should be fine.</p><p>A clothy.. lots of things to do here, but i'd start with CC.  That's what I look for in a clothy anyway.  Stifles, stuns, mezzes, ect.  Know those mezzes that you never use in pvp because they make no sense?  They make sense in group pvp.. </p><p>And two more of the above.  Doesn't make much sense to have two tanks unless one is spec'd for dps, but i'd suggest if you have a druid, get a non-druid priest.. and vise versa.  If you have a pred/rogue, get a bard to fill a slot.  If you have a sorcerer.. get a chanter.  If you have a summoner... well, any other clothy and you won't get a ton of overlap of what a summoner brings (especially necro, from what i've seen).</p><p>k, hope that group tutorial helps <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  It's fundamental to the game, tier of play doesn't change a [I cannot control my vocabulary] thing. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00">You actually seem to be trying to be helpful here, so i won't bash you, either. Unfortunately, you are arguing just to argue again. I think the only way to save you from looking more and more foolish is to stop responding to your posts; I know enough about how you post to know that you won't stop otherwise, nor will you ever listen, even though your rebuttals are utterly painful at this point. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">On that note, have a nice day. </span> </p>

Bozidar
04-05-2007, 06:03 PM
<cite>dnice74 wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="color: #00cc00">are utterly painful at this point. </span><p><span style="color: #00cc00">On that note, have a nice day. </span> </p></blockquote><p> I can see why it might hurt to read about how the game is supposed to be played, when you're dead set against playing it that way.  I wish you a nice day too.</p><p>Know a good way to have a nice day?  get a group <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> heh.. </p>

Ameniel
04-05-2007, 06:29 PM
<cite>dnice74 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00">If you're quite finished with the "pwned" screenshots, let's get it back on topic. </span> </p></blockquote><p>Ok fine, no more 'pwned' shots....</p><p>How bout puppies??</p><p><img src="http://www.kloudiia.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/09/Puppy.JPG" border="0"> </p>

Xova
04-05-2007, 09:05 PM
<cite>dnice74 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xova wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>dnice74 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Let's pull this back a minute. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">I talked with one of the people who I assumed is one of the offenders of the "hack" in question (Famine). Had a good chat with him, then we did some one-on-one with his guardian. Was a good time.</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">He says he's not hacking; fine. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't. I know there are others out there who get booted for it, I know hacks exist. I have repeatedly said that if my original thrust in this thread was wrong, there is a huge problem here with scout vs. caster balance. He even agreed that they could stand to be toned down a little. </span></p></blockquote><p>I'm pretty sure I know what he is doing, and it's not hacking. Creative use of in-game mechanics at most, but not a hack.</p><p>I believe the key is macros and Double-up (an attack that repeats the <b><i><u>previous 2 seconds</u></i></b> of certain combat arts). Macro together a few CA's with .5 second casts, hit Double-up, and you get the 5-second fights people are complaining about. </p></blockquote><span style="color: #00cc00">Geez, Xova. I know you're trying to be helpful, so I will not bash you. But this has only been brought up about 17 zillion times in the thread. </span></blockquote><p>Geez, well if it's been brought up that many times in this thread then you think maybe that's what he's doing and not the hack you keep trying to claim it is? At some point one would think you'd get a clue...</p><p>Honestly, I haven't read all 15 pages of this thread either because about 13 pages of it is you doing the textual equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and saying "LALALALALA NOT LISTENING!!!" It's tiresome, and frankly makes me embarassed to admit we play on the same server. I can agree with you that brigands are grossly over-powered still, and I can agree with you that the PvP game is still unbalanced. But as myself and others have patiently (and impatiently) pointed out to you numerous times - IT'S NOT A HACK.</p><p>If you want to shift to talking about caster vs. scout imbalance then might I suggest you start a new thread to plead your case on that specific topic? Because I'm pretty sure your valid concern would get a lot more attention if it weren't buried under all your kvetching and sneering in this thread. -_- </p>

dnice74
04-05-2007, 11:37 PM
<cite>Xova wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>dnice74 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xova wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>dnice74 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Let's pull this back a minute. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">I talked with one of the people who I assumed is one of the offenders of the "hack" in question (Famine). Had a good chat with him, then we did some one-on-one with his guardian. Was a good time.</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">He says he's not hacking; fine. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't. I know there are others out there who get booted for it, I know hacks exist. I have repeatedly said that if my original thrust in this thread was wrong, there is a huge problem here with scout vs. caster balance. He even agreed that they could stand to be toned down a little. </span></p></blockquote><p>I'm pretty sure I know what he is doing, and it's not hacking. Creative use of in-game mechanics at most, but not a hack.</p><p>I believe the key is macros and Double-up (an attack that repeats the <b><i><u>previous 2 seconds</u></i></b> of certain combat arts). Macro together a few CA's with .5 second casts, hit Double-up, and you get the 5-second fights people are complaining about. </p></blockquote><span style="color: #00cc00">Geez, Xova. I know you're trying to be helpful, so I will not bash you. But this has only been brought up about 17 zillion times in the thread. </span></blockquote><p>Geez, well if it's been brought up that many times in this thread then you think maybe that's what he's doing and not the hack you keep trying to claim it is? At some point one would think you'd get a clue...</p><p>Honestly, I haven't read all 15 pages of this thread either because about 13 pages of it is you doing the textual equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and saying "LALALALALA NOT LISTENING!!!" It's tiresome, and frankly makes me embarassed to admit we play on the same server. I can agree with you that brigands are grossly over-powered still, and I can agree with you that the PvP game is still unbalanced. But as myself and others have patiently (and impatiently) pointed out to you numerous times - IT'S NOT A HACK.</p><p>If you want to shift to talking about caster vs. scout imbalance then might I suggest you start a new thread to plead your case on that specific topic? Because I'm pretty sure your valid concern would get a lot more attention if it weren't buried under all your kvetching and sneering in this thread. -_- </p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Excuse me, weren't you the one demanding an apology earlier on? No problem, I can treat you like the rest of the trolls if that's how you want it. Take your 'kvetching and sneering' comments back to whatever noob zone you are leveling in at the moment and bite me. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Get a clue? Riiight. Tell you what, you prove to me that hacks don't exist and provide me with a way to monitor his machine, then I will agree 100% that there is no hack. You don't know he's not. I don't either, which is why I said maybe, you simpleton.   </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">I answered your post that way because you were not paying attention AT ALL to what I said in the post that you quoted. If you were, you would realize that your answer had nothing to do with what I said. Go re-read that post, it was pretty self-explanatory. If not, I suggest a reading comprehension course. And if you had bothered to read the thread, you would see how I've shifted gears because I HAVE BEEN LISTENING, WHICH IS WHY I CHANGED THE ORIGINAL THRUST OF THE THREAD and agree that it might not be a hack. If it is, the gm's will eventually find it. If not, they can see for themselves how op this crap is and report it to the devs. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">The point is: something is freaking wrong here. You boo-birds can dress up in as many frilly clothes as you like, but it won't change a damned thing. I shouldn't have to create a new thread for that just because you are too lazy to pick out the key points here (which I have repeated a lot at this point). </span></p>

dnice74
04-05-2007, 11:37 PM
<cite>Ameniel wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>dnice74 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00">If you're quite finished with the "pwned" screenshots, let's get it back on topic. </span> </p></blockquote><p>Ok fine, no more 'pwned' shots....</p><p>How bout puppies??</p><p><img src="http://www.kloudiia.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/09/Puppy.JPG" border="0"> </p></blockquote><span style="color: #00cc00">awwww. very cute. how about some kittens?</span>

Spyderbite
04-05-2007, 11:42 PM
<cite>dnice74 wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="color: #00cc00">awwww. very cute. how about some kittens?</span> </blockquote> Kittens aren't available at this time. You see. they were ganked by some Brigands in the Enchanted Lands recently. So, they're currently holding their breath until a GM or Developer personally addresses this injustice. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Edit: Oops.. one of the Kittens just asked me to give you a message.. <img src="http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e101/DJSpyderBite/Humor/laughing_cat.jpg" border="0">

dnice74
04-05-2007, 11:55 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><cite>dnice74 wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="color: #00cc00">awwww. very cute. how about some kittens?</span> </blockquote> Kittens aren't available at this time. You see. they were ganked by some Brigands in the Enchanted Lands recently. So, they're currently holding their breath until a GM or Developer personally addresses this injustice. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Edit: Oops.. one of the Kittens just asked me to give you a message.. <img src="http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e101/DJSpyderBite/Humor/laughing_cat.jpg" border="0"> </blockquote> <span style="color: #00cc00">Better. Thanks!</span>

Xova
04-06-2007, 01:23 AM
<cite>dnice74 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Excuse me, weren't you the one demanding an apology earlier on? No problem, I can treat you like the rest of the trolls if that's how you want it. Take your 'kvetching and sneering' comments back to whatever noob zone you are leveling in at the moment and bite me. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Get a clue? Riiight. Tell you what, you prove to me that hacks don't exist and provide me with a way to monitor his machine, then I will agree 100% that there is no hack. You don't know he's not. I don't either, which is why I said maybe, you simpleton.   </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">I answered your post that way because you were not paying attention AT ALL to what I said in the post that you quoted. If you were, you would realize that your answer had nothing to do with what I said. Go re-read that post, it was pretty self-explanatory. If not, I suggest a reading comprehension course. And if you had bothered to read the thread, you would see how I've shifted gears because I HAVE BEEN LISTENING, WHICH IS WHY I CHANGED THE ORIGINAL THRUST OF THE THREAD and agree that it might not be a hack. If it is, the gm's will eventually find it. If not, they can see for themselves how op this crap is and report it to the devs. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">The point is: something is freaking wrong here. You boo-birds can dress up in as many frilly clothes as you like, but it won't change a damned thing. I shouldn't have to create a new thread for that just because you are too lazy to pick out the key points here (which I have repeated a lot at this point). </span></p></blockquote><p>I read your post, and my response was to your comments about hacking and "maybe he is, maybe he isn't." Having reviewed combat logs, talking to others, practicing with brigands, I know that's what he's doing and it's not a hack. Do hacks exist? Of course. Is one being used in this case? Nope. And considering you and your buddies have apparently reported him oh-so-many times for using a "hack" I think the fact that he's still playing should maybe clue you in that you were wrong.</p><p>If you have truly changed the thrust of your complaint and are now conceding that it's not a hack, then leave it at that and quit with the flip-flopping "maybe it is maybe it isn't" and then you won't get people responding to you and telling you definitively that it's not hacking, but rather a clever use of in-game mechanics to make an overpowered class even moreso.</p><p>My suggestion was to create a new post to make your points not because I or others are too lazy to read them, but rather because your name-calling and nasty, childish attitude detracts from what are otherwise valid points. Surely you are not so obtuse that you can't see that, are you?</p><p>Simply put, if you want to debate imbalance between classes and foster a discussion that might actually orchestrate some positive change, then you should just create a new thread to get it away from all the garbage in this one. Otherwise, don't expect much courtesy or Dev attention to what is just another whiny flamefest of a thread.</p><p>Oh one last thing...I have a 70 Fury, 70 Warden, 70 Dirge, 70 Defiler, and 70 Swashbuckler, the latter two of which are Exiled. So you can take your "noob" comment and shove it up your [Removed for Content] alongside that stick that seems permanently wedged there. Thanks!</p>

Oshef
04-06-2007, 01:40 AM
I just want to say that brigs are soso.. and far from overpowered. There isn't a class in the game that <b>can't</b> beat a brigand. Sure if the fight goes a certain way they'll win most fights.. you carry freedom of mind potions on you.. you pwn the [Removed for Content] out of brigands. You root him.. you pwn the brig. You fear him, you stun him.. must I go on? I'll just say that if you aren't running vision totem of the butterfly at all times you're asking for it. Especially as a clothie. And I also want to say that people that say "OMG HAX" make me smile. Revive and get over it, bloobie.

dnice74
04-06-2007, 02:03 AM
<cite>Xova wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>dnice74 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Excuse me, weren't you the one demanding an apology earlier on? No problem, I can treat you like the rest of the trolls if that's how you want it. Take your 'kvetching and sneering' comments back to whatever noob zone you are leveling in at the moment and bite me. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Get a clue? Riiight. Tell you what, you prove to me that hacks don't exist and provide me with a way to monitor his machine, then I will agree 100% that there is no hack. You don't know he's not. I don't either, which is why I said maybe, you simpleton.   </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">I answered your post that way because you were not paying attention AT ALL to what I said in the post that you quoted. If you were, you would realize that your answer had nothing to do with what I said. Go re-read that post, it was pretty self-explanatory. If not, I suggest a reading comprehension course. And if you had bothered to read the thread, you would see how I've shifted gears because I HAVE BEEN LISTENING, WHICH IS WHY I CHANGED THE ORIGINAL THRUST OF THE THREAD and agree that it might not be a hack. If it is, the gm's will eventually find it. If not, they can see for themselves how op this crap is and report it to the devs. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">The point is: something is freaking wrong here. You boo-birds can dress up in as many frilly clothes as you like, but it won't change a damned thing. I shouldn't have to create a new thread for that just because you are too lazy to pick out the key points here (which I have repeated a lot at this point). </span></p></blockquote><p>I read your post, and my response was to your comments about hacking and "maybe he is, maybe he isn't." Having reviewed combat logs, talking to others, practicing with brigands, I know that's what he's doing and it's not a hack. Do hacks exist? Of course. Is one being used in this case? Nope. And considering you and your buddies have apparently reported him oh-so-many times for using a "hack" I think the fact that he's still playing should maybe clue you in that you were wrong.</p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Is english not your native tongue? Are you a psychic, perhaps? You don't know jack [Removed for Content]. Yes, I am fully aware that he is a good player with good gear and that brigs get an utterly stupid AA combo. Part of my point, dipstick, was that I've talked about that already. But you couldn't be bothered to read all of the thread, could you? My word you are dense. The other part of the point is that I have conceded several times now that it might not be a hack, but you want to keep railing on with "it's not let it go." I won't until I have proof, so stop callousing your fingers. Maybe the fact that a GM was investigating him today should clue you into the fact that you're a [Removed for Content] masquerading your opinion as fact. </span></p><p>If you have truly changed the thrust of your complaint and are now conceding that it's not a hack, then leave it at that and quit with the flip-flopping "maybe it is maybe it isn't" and then you won't get people responding to you and telling you definitively that it's not hacking, but rather a clever use of in-game mechanics to make an overpowered class even moreso.</p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">First of all, if you don't like the thread, LEAVE. There is still a lot of good info in this thread, and if it was such an abomination, the mods would close it. I don't care if they do - I've made my point. But thanks for adding the fact that you think this is op, which accomplishes what I am looking for. I've only said it about 98374654239853280947 [Removed for Content] times now - something is wrong here. I do not care how it is fixed, I only want it fixed. </span></p><p>My suggestion was to create a new post to make your points not because I or others are too lazy to read them, but rather because your name-calling and nasty, childish attitude detracts from what are otherwise valid points. Surely you are not so obtuse that you can't see that, are you?</p><p><span style="color: #00cc00"><u>In every single instance here</u>, my "nasty blah blah blah" has been in response to someone who started it. The only person I jumped the gun with was you, who I have apologized to - and apparently, I was probably right to bite back at you, given the drivel you are spewing here. I am not nasty unless it is warranted - and let's look at the responses, shall we? All brigands, trolls, opposing guild-people, bandwagoneers, etc. When you're done making me out to be the bad guy, maybe you can take a look at why I have responded to people in a certain manner. Oh wait, you can't be bothered. </span></p><p>Simply put, if you want to debate imbalance between classes and foster a discussion that might actually orchestrate some positive change, then you should just create a new thread to get it away from all the garbage in this one. Otherwise, don't expect much courtesy or Dev attention to what is just another whiny flamefest of a thread.</p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Again with your opinion. Great, close the thread, Oz has spoken!! Is some demonic force forcing you to post here? I'll call a priest, or maybe the GhostBusters. </span></p><p>Oh one last thing...I have a 70 Fury, 70 Warden, 70 Dirge, 70 Defiler, and 70 Swashbuckler, the latter two of which are Exiled. So you can take your "noob" comment and shove it up your [I cannot control my vocabulary] alongside that stick that seems permanently wedged there. Thanks!</p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">You left out the things you do not have - but I don't know whether that is a job, a life, friends, the ability to read at the 8th grade level, or all of the above. Pick one. Go play with your plethora of toons and go away. By the way, that giant yellow ball in the sky is a star called Sol, or the Sun. I just didn't want you to be startled should you ever choose to step outside, freak. </span></p></blockquote>

dnice74
04-06-2007, 02:05 AM
<cite>Oshef wrote:</cite><blockquote>I just want to say that brigs are soso.. and far from overpowered. There isn't a class in the game that <b>can't</b> beat a brigand. Sure if the fight goes a certain way they'll win most fights.. you carry freedom of mind potions on you.. you pwn the [I cannot control my vocabulary] out of brigands. You root him.. you pwn the brig. You fear him, you stun him.. must I go on? I'll just say that if you aren't running vision totem of the butterfly at all times you're asking for it. Especially as a clothie. And I also want to say that people that say "OMG HAX" make me smile. Revive and get over it, bloobie. </blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Welcome to about 10 pages ago, when I talked about how oh-so-easy it is to take out certain brigands. Or maybe 13, when I said that they weren't all impossible to kill, just a certain few. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Yes, I'm the bluebie who plays on a PvP server. [Removed for Content], you got me. </span> </p>

dnice74
04-06-2007, 02:17 AM
<cite>Oshef wrote:</cite><blockquote>I just want to say that brigs are soso.. and far from overpowered. There isn't a class in the game that <b>can't</b> beat a brigand. Sure if the fight goes a certain way they'll win most fights.. you carry freedom of mind potions on you.. you pwn the [I cannot control my vocabulary] out of brigands. You root him.. you pwn the brig. You fear him, you stun him.. must I go on? I'll just say that if you aren't running vision totem of the butterfly at all times you're asking for it. Especially as a clothie. And I also want to say that people that say "OMG HAX" make me smile. Revive and get over it, bloobie. </blockquote> <span style="color: #00cc00">And another thing, dingleberry - I have stated they are op against CASTERS. Those who wear cloth. Finger-wagglers. I just wanted to make sure you understood this, seeing as how you were also too busy drooling over yourself to read the rest of this thread. </span>

Spyderbite
04-06-2007, 02:52 AM
<cite>dnice74 wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="color: #00cc00">And another thing, dingleberry </span></blockquote> Wow.. do you realize you managed to toss a personal insult in to 3 consecutive replies in a row? I do believe that's some sort of record. <img src="http://www.myspacehumor.com/Myspace-Girlie/myspace-girlie-graphics4.jpg" border="0">

Eybietie
04-06-2007, 03:17 AM
<cite>Oshef wrote:</cite><blockquote>I just want to say that brigs are soso.. and far from overpowered. There isn't a class in the game that <b>can't</b> beat a brigand. Sure if the fight goes a certain way they'll win most fights.. you carry freedom of mind potions on you.. you pwn the [I cannot control my vocabulary] out of brigands. You root him.. you pwn the brig. You fear him, you stun him.. must I go on? I'll just say that if you aren't running vision totem of the butterfly at all times you're asking for it. Especially as a clothie. And I also want to say that people that say "OMG HAX" make me smile. Revive and get over it, bloobie. </blockquote><p> <span style="color: #ffff00">the last sentence is very remarkable - revive and get over it.... btw - i will light a ph4t blunt and dedicate it to you.</span></p>

Firam
04-06-2007, 03:25 AM
<cite>Oshef wrote:</cite><blockquote>I just want to say that brigs are soso.. and far from overpowered. There isn't a class in the game that <b>can't</b> beat a brigand. Sure if the fight goes a certain way they'll win most fights.. you carry freedom of mind potions on you.. you pwn the [I cannot control my vocabulary] out of brigands. You root him.. you pwn the brig. You fear him, you stun him.. must I go on? I'll just say that if you aren't running vision totem of the butterfly at all times you're asking for it. Especially as a clothie. And I also want to say that people that say "OMG HAX" make me smile. Revive and get over it, bloobie. </blockquote> You mean that you <b>*gasp*</b> actually use all tools, items, and tactics available to you in such a way as to render the strengths of another class almost null and void?  I wouldn't make this public, bro, if word of this gets out we may have a revolution of people that don't suck at PvP on ours hands. And then who would we farm for tokens? =(

Bozidar
04-06-2007, 09:02 AM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><cite>dnice74 wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="color: #00cc00">And another thing, dingleberry </span></blockquote> Wow.. do you realize you managed to toss a personal insult in to 3 consecutive replies in a row? I do believe that's some sort of record. <img src="http://www.myspacehumor.com/Myspace-Girlie/myspace-girlie-graphics4.jpg" border="0"> </blockquote>folks, that's ALL HE DOES!  If you don't agree with him, FLAME!  Get over him.. he's just a troll who likes to evoke reponses from people.  Only thing to do is tweak his nose, move on, and gank him in game.  And if you do, please make a pet named "Getagroup" for me, and hail the crap outta it <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

dnice74
04-06-2007, 09:48 AM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><cite>dnice74 wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="color: #00cc00">And another thing, dingleberry </span></blockquote> Wow.. do you realize you managed to toss a personal insult in to 3 consecutive replies in a row? I do believe that's some sort of record. <img src="http://www.myspacehumor.com/Myspace-Girlie/myspace-girlie-graphics4.jpg" border="0"> </blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Can you post [Removed for Content] having something to do with hypocrisy? I find it amusing that when people insult me it's ok, but when I bite back, I'm the bad guy. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">I find it even more hilarious considering that you have contributed zero - hell, we could go into the negative integers here - to this thread. All you have done is jump on the "bash the evil op" bandwagon. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">I know this board isn't crawling with MIT grads, but [I cannot control my vocabulary] some of you are idiots. Yes Spider, that was another insult, pointed right at you. But I await your next ss, go nuts. </span> </p>

dnice74
04-06-2007, 09:55 AM
<cite>Firamas wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Oshef wrote:</cite><blockquote>I just want to say that brigs are soso.. and far from overpowered. There isn't a class in the game that <b>can't</b> beat a brigand. Sure if the fight goes a certain way they'll win most fights.. you carry freedom of mind potions on you.. you pwn the [I cannot control my vocabulary] out of brigands. You root him.. you pwn the brig. You fear him, you stun him.. must I go on? I'll just say that if you aren't running vision totem of the butterfly at all times you're asking for it. Especially as a clothie. And I also want to say that people that say "OMG HAX" make me smile. Revive and get over it, bloobie. </blockquote> You mean that you <b>*gasp*</b> actually use all tools, items, and tactics available to you in such a way as to render the strengths of another class almost null and void?  I wouldn't make this public, bro, if word of this gets out we may have a revolution of people that don't suck at PvP on ours hands. And then who would we farm for tokens? =( </blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Let's count the trolling, repetitive, or useless comments, shall we? </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Here's Firamas again - a brigand - again claiming there is a magic wand that can be waved to keep brigands from practically instakilling people. Let's forget the fact that scouts everywhere admit that they salivate when they see a "squishy", despite the fact that many of them consider me the best of my class on the server. Clearly, I need to learn to play. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">One </span> </p>

dnice74
04-06-2007, 10:27 AM
<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><cite>dnice74 wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="color: #00cc00">And another thing, dingleberry </span></blockquote> Wow.. do you realize you managed to toss a personal insult in to 3 consecutive replies in a row? I do believe that's some sort of record. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00">And here is Mr. T5 again. Despite repeatedly being destroyed more times in debates (pssst btw - did you know they nerfed decap, Boz?) than Pfizer has pills, he continues to strive on with his nonsensical arguments. I seriously believe you would argue cars ran on Diet Pepsi with Henry Ford's ghost just to annoy him. Repeating utterly ridiculous statements doesn't make your arguments any more convincing, Boz. Keep dreaming about how you can gank me someday, how getting a group will solve the imbalances between scouts and casters, or that magical day when you do make a convincing point in an argument. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Actually, I hope you don't wise up. I highly highly highly doubt I'm the only one who chuckles when they see you post in a thread. You are fun to torture.   </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Very constructive, guys. Keep up the useful comments. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Two</span></p></blockquote>

Bozidar
04-06-2007, 10:37 AM
<p>Know what i find constructive?  PvPing with a group successfully <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>btw, don't dream of killing you one day.  I won't be making it to T7 on Vox.  server just seems too dead</p>

Syslik
04-06-2007, 10:44 AM
<cite>dnice74 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xova wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>dnice74 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Excuse me, weren't you the one demanding an apology earlier on? No problem, I can treat you like the rest of the trolls if that's how you want it. Take your 'kvetching and sneering' comments back to whatever noob zone you are leveling in at the moment and bite me. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Get a clue? Riiight. Tell you what, you prove to me that hacks don't exist and provide me with a way to monitor his machine, then I will agree 100% that there is no hack. You don't know he's not. I don't either, which is why I said maybe, you simpleton.   </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">I answered your post that way because you were not paying attention AT ALL to what I said in the post that you quoted. If you were, you would realize that your answer had nothing to do with what I said. Go re-read that post, it was pretty self-explanatory. If not, I suggest a reading comprehension course. And if you had bothered to read the thread, you would see how I've shifted gears because I HAVE BEEN LISTENING, WHICH IS WHY I CHANGED THE ORIGINAL THRUST OF THE THREAD and agree that it might not be a hack. If it is, the gm's will eventually find it. If not, they can see for themselves how op this crap is and report it to the devs. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">The point is: something is freaking wrong here. You boo-birds can dress up in as many frilly clothes as you like, but it won't change a damned thing. I shouldn't have to create a new thread for that just because you are too lazy to pick out the key points here (which I have repeated a lot at this point). </span></p></blockquote><p>I read your post, and my response was to your comments about hacking and "maybe he is, maybe he isn't." Having reviewed combat logs, talking to others, practicing with brigands, I know that's what he's doing and it's not a hack. Do hacks exist? Of course. Is one being used in this case? Nope. And considering you and your buddies have apparently reported him oh-so-many times for using a "hack" I think the fact that he's still playing should maybe clue you in that you were wrong.</p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Is english not your native tongue? Are you a psychic, perhaps? You don't know jack [I cannot control my vocabulary]. Yes, I am fully aware that he is a good player with good gear and that brigs get an utterly stupid AA combo. Part of my point, dipstick, was that I've talked about that already. But you couldn't be bothered to read all of the thread, could you? My word you are dense. The other part of the point is that I have conceded several times now that it might not be a hack, but you want to keep railing on with "it's not let it go." I won't until I have proof, so stop callousing your fingers. Maybe the fact that a GM was investigating him today should clue you into the fact that you're a [Removed for Content] masquerading your opinion as fact. </span></p><p>If you have truly changed the thrust of your complaint and are now conceding that it's not a hack, then leave it at that and quit with the flip-flopping "maybe it is maybe it isn't" and then you won't get people responding to you and telling you definitively that it's not hacking, but rather a clever use of in-game mechanics to make an overpowered class even moreso.</p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">First of all, if you don't like the thread, LEAVE. There is still a lot of good info in this thread, and if it was such an abomination, the mods would close it. I don't care if they do - I've made my point. But thanks for adding the fact that you think this is op, which accomplishes what I am looking for. I've only said it about 98374654239853280947 [I cannot control my vocabulary] times now - something is wrong here. I do not care how it is fixed, I only want it fixed. </span></p><p>My suggestion was to create a new post to make your points not because I or others are too lazy to read them, but rather because your name-calling and nasty, childish attitude detracts from what are otherwise valid points. Surely you are not so obtuse that you can't see that, are you?</p><p><span style="color: #00cc00"><u>In every single instance here</u>, my "nasty blah blah blah" has been in response to someone who started it. The only person I jumped the gun with was you, who I have apologized to - and apparently, I was probably right to bite back at you, given the drivel you are spewing here. I am not nasty unless it is warranted - and let's look at the responses, shall we? All brigands, trolls, opposing guild-people, bandwagoneers, etc. When you're done making me out to be the bad guy, maybe you can take a look at why I have responded to people in a certain manner. Oh wait, you can't be bothered. </span></p><p>Simply put, if you want to debate imbalance between classes and foster a discussion that might actually orchestrate some positive change, then you should just create a new thread to get it away from all the garbage in this one. Otherwise, don't expect much courtesy or Dev attention to what is just another whiny flamefest of a thread.</p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Again with your opinion. Great, close the thread, Oz has spoken!! Is some demonic force forcing you to post here? I'll call a priest, or maybe the GhostBusters. </span></p><p>Oh one last thing...I have a 70 Fury, 70 Warden, 70 Dirge, 70 Defiler, and 70 Swashbuckler, the latter two of which are Exiled. So you can take your "noob" comment and shove it up your [I cannot control my vocabulary] alongside that stick that seems permanently wedged there. Thanks!</p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">You left out the things you do not have - but I don't know whether that is a job, a life, friends, the ability to read at the 8th grade level, or all of the above. Pick one. Go play with your plethora of toons and go away. By the way, that giant yellow ball in the sky is a star called Sol, or the Sun. I just didn't want you to be startled should you ever choose to step outside, freak. </span></p></blockquote> </blockquote>I've been following this thread for a while.  In fact, though I've been playing for years and I check the class boards here, this will be my first post on SOE's forums.  Yes, your thread is galling enough that I registered just to respond to you.  In the interest of disclosure, let's start off:  no, I am not on a PvP server.  Yes, I played on a red server for years on EQLive.  Are the game mechanics slightly different on PvP servers?  Sure.  However, in EQLive, WoW, EQ2, DAoC, and every other game with PvP, certain things hold true.  You have 16 pages of ad-hominem attacks, and zero evidence of anything being wrong.  In ANY game, be it D&D, Diablo2, EQLive, EQ2, or something else you feel like throwing in, cloth casters have very little in the way of mitigation and HP.  Your basic complaint boils down to the fact that you, for some reason, feel like you should have some kind of special protection against high-DPS meleers.  At numerous points in the thread here, we've had brigs and swashies responding that they are ALSO at risk of this if they get jumped.  Go look at the combat log with Leap.  We've seen them say that tanky classes with high mitigation and reasonable DPS (SKs, 'zerkers) can just stand there and melee them to death as long as they see them coming.  What exactly is your problem?  You clearly want to keep whatever abilities you have as a conjuror and stack more nerfs on top of a class that just got some?  Note that while PvP is great, the PvE servers generate the most revenue stream for SOE.  With the already low playerbase of brigands in general, I fail to see what you hope to accomplish.  Are you just going to obstinately keep flaming people until the thread gets closed (I, for one, reported it)?  The balance is what it is, and that's somewhat variable, sure.  From the sounds of it, you had another long bitchfest about long-timer oneshot abilities (harmtouch, decap) and attribute the rebalancing solely to your whining.  Your mitigation sucks, and getting more gear is not going to help you significantly with that, nor should it.  You'll get more power, more INT, and the other things which define conjurors.  THOSE are your tools, not enough HP or mitigation to survive a doubleup, harmtouch, decapitate, sniper shot, or any other ability which can do mass damage to somebody with very little HP.  The fact that a brigand can drop your mitigation precipitously and burn you down does not make them overpowered.  It means they know how to play their class.  It worked that way in EQLive (rogues/monks/rangers vs. casties), WoW (rogues/hunters vs. casties), and it'll work that way in every other game you'll ever play. Let's break it down to basics: You childishly insist that there's a commonly-used hack out there.  You've posted combat logs, and many people have looked at them.  No hack there.  People have even identified the opening combo and what PvP gear he's wearing. You maintain that GMs are "investigating" and that people have been "banned."  Where is your proof of this?  GMs do not tell you such things from a normal /report, and you've posted zero evidence to support your case.  Your original assertion was that disproportionately high numbers of FP characters were playing brigands and exploiting this.  Nobody else has come forward to support you (other than Leap, who recanted once he looked at the combat log).  The playerbase numbers also do not agree. You've resorted to seemingly baseless personal attacks as if they somehow abrogate your responsibility to face the mounting evidence against you.  Anybody who disagrees with you is a troll.  You're just responding to their attacks (as if that somehow makes it better even if it were the case, which it's not).  Multiple times,  you've proclaimed your superior PvP skills.  I don't play PvP in EQ2.  I'm not sure.  However, you seem to have a reputation, and not a good one.  Not one person has come forward to defend your talents.  A few people stopped taking the thread seriously once they found out who you were in-game.  Doesn't bode well for you. The reason why I quoted the reply above is that it exemplifies everything which is wrong with you.  He's listing out the facts as presented and giving you advice for getting positive feedback on the thread, and -maybe- even having a dev look at it instead of seeing as "another whinefest from dnice74."  You attacked his education level (which appears from an outside perspective to be at least on par with yours, and quite possibly better), debased his personal character and told him he "has no life" (I suppose making excessively long forum threads with no point is better than playing a game he obviously enjoys, even if you don't?), and called people who disagreed with you "All brigands, trolls, opposing guild-people, bandwagoneers, etc."  I suppose that'll include me?  This would be my first experience with you at all.  No vested interest in being on a bandwagon.  It was linked on the bruiser forums, and I thought it -might- get better and actually show something as the pages went on.  It did, clearly, but not whatever it was you were trying to bring to people's attention. Put simply (I think it needs to be for you to understand it), people like you ruin games.  You cannot expect the balance of the entire game to make a fulcrum shift in order for a squishy to walk all over everybody he encounters.  Brigs are effectively using the tools they have, that's all.  If you had a similar skillset,  you'd certainly use it also.  In DAoC, similar hordes of [Removed for Content] made assassins pretty much the only class worth playing.  In EQLive, SKs and Paladins pretty much lost the ability to tank; to the point where any other melee class did it better against raid bosses with untouchable discs, since 30 seconds is longer than the 1 second it took a knight to get onerounded, and group content in the last few expansions mandated a warrior.  In WoW, right now, druids are getting their DPS AND tanking abilities nerfed because PvP specced warriors feel that they should be better than every other class in PvE also, even though all of them admitted their tanking problems disappeared if they respecced to a more versatile setup.  Take a step back and contemplate which classes YOU can take out without much of a problem.  There's a balance, and that's it.  You've been told repeatedly that it's a group game.  Well, it is.  Certain classes are built to take out others, and if you were in a group you'd find a niche.  Solo, a high DPS meleer is going to kill you without much trouble. That's the game.  Take it or leave it.  For the sake of your server, please take the 2nd option, or grow up and play for fun.  Games are supposed to be fun, y'know?  Judging by how heated you're getting, you clearly have some kind of superiority complex, and I can't fathom why, though the persecution complex is obvious.  The notion that you're automatically more intelligent than everybody else, and they're "out to get you" for some reason is laughable.  Nobody's going to take you seriously. Before you reply to this with more off-the-wall personal attacks against somebody you've never seen before and is undeniably older, wiser, and more intelligent (yes, this is my judgement, but I've had pages and pages of your inane responses to read, whereas you've got one post), try actually reading and thinking about what I said.  If you must insist on flaming, I have ONE paragraph with personal comments about you, and it's the second to last.  Should you respond to well-reasoned arguments with petty temper tantrums, it'll eludicatingly show that you have no interest in making a more enjoyable experience, merely in correcting the "problems" with the game (namely that you cannot beat everybody with your eyes closed).

Bozidar
04-06-2007, 10:52 AM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><b></b> The reason why I quoted the reply above is that it exemplifies everything which is wrong with you.  He's listing out the facts as presented and giving you advice for getting positive feedback on the thread, and -maybe- even having a dev look at it instead of seeing as "another whinefest from dnice74."  You attacked his education level (which appears from an outside perspective to be at least on par with yours, and quite possibly better), debased his personal character and told him he "has no life" (I suppose making excessively long forum threads with no point is better than playing a game he obviously enjoys, even if you don't?), and called people who disagreed with you "All brigands, trolls, opposing guild-people, bandwagoneers, etc."  </blockquote><p>FYI -- you prolly don't know it, but Xova is a She.  No reason you would have known it, so no big deal.  Also, Xova is probably the EASIEST person to get along with from Vox when it comes to the Forums.  she has never "gotten nasty" that i've seen, nor lost her cool.  I've given her and her friend Z no end of BS on the forums, just screwing around, and she just _never_ loses it.  She even moonlights as the forum lawyer for unfounded attacks on just about anyone.  The fact that dnice can't have a civil conversation with HER just screams to anyone that knows these two that he's just not <i>interested</i> in having a civil conversation.  He wants to troll, and flame, and get lots of responses so he can say "I started a 20 page thread on this, and no one could beat my argument, blah blah blah".  Ignore him, and move on.  </p><p>There is an AWESOME community on the forums here, with people like Xova, Greenion for pvp, and a thousand cool pve folks who i enjoy reading their stuff.  Feel free to contribute through out the rest of the forums, and welcome <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Don't feed the trolls though.. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

dnice74
04-06-2007, 11:05 AM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><cite>dnice74 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xova wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>dnice74 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Excuse me, weren't you the one demanding an apology earlier on? No problem, I can treat you like the rest of the trolls if that's how you want it. Take your 'kvetching and sneering' comments back to whatever noob zone you are leveling in at the moment and bite me. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Get a clue? Riiight. Tell you what, you prove to me that hacks don't exist and provide me with a way to monitor his machine, then I will agree 100% that there is no hack. You don't know he's not. I don't either, which is why I said maybe, you simpleton.   </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">I answered your post that way because you were not paying attention AT ALL to what I said in the post that you quoted. If you were, you would realize that your answer had nothing to do with what I said. Go re-read that post, it was pretty self-explanatory. If not, I suggest a reading comprehension course. And if you had bothered to read the thread, you would see how I've shifted gears because I HAVE BEEN LISTENING, WHICH IS WHY I CHANGED THE ORIGINAL THRUST OF THE THREAD and agree that it might not be a hack. If it is, the gm's will eventually find it. If not, they can see for themselves how op this crap is and report it to the devs. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">The point is: something is freaking wrong here. You boo-birds can dress up in as many frilly clothes as you like, but it won't change a damned thing. I shouldn't have to create a new thread for that just because you are too lazy to pick out the key points here (which I have repeated a lot at this point). </span></p></blockquote><p>I read your post, and my response was to your comments about hacking and "maybe he is, maybe he isn't." Having reviewed combat logs, talking to others, practicing with brigands, I know that's what he's doing and it's not a hack. Do hacks exist? Of course. Is one being used in this case? Nope. And considering you and your buddies have apparently reported him oh-so-many times for using a "hack" I think the fact that he's still playing should maybe clue you in that you were wrong.</p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Is english not your native tongue? Are you a psychic, perhaps? You don't know jack [I cannot control my vocabulary]. Yes, I am fully aware that he is a good player with good gear and that brigs get an utterly stupid AA combo. Part of my point, dipstick, was that I've talked about that already. But you couldn't be bothered to read all of the thread, could you? My word you are dense. The other part of the point is that I have conceded several times now that it might not be a hack, but you want to keep railing on with "it's not let it go." I won't until I have proof, so stop callousing your fingers. Maybe the fact that a GM was investigating him today should clue you into the fact that you're a [Removed for Content] masquerading your opinion as fact. </span></p><p>If you have truly changed the thrust of your complaint and are now conceding that it's not a hack, then leave it at that and quit with the flip-flopping "maybe it is maybe it isn't" and then you won't get people responding to you and telling you definitively that it's not hacking, but rather a clever use of in-game mechanics to make an overpowered class even moreso.</p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">First of all, if you don't like the thread, LEAVE. There is still a lot of good info in this thread, and if it was such an abomination, the mods would close it. I don't care if they do - I've made my point. But thanks for adding the fact that you think this is op, which accomplishes what I am looking for. I've only said it about 98374654239853280947 [I cannot control my vocabulary] times now - something is wrong here. I do not care how it is fixed, I only want it fixed. </span></p><p>My suggestion was to create a new post to make your points not because I or others are too lazy to read them, but rather because your name-calling and nasty, childish attitude detracts from what are otherwise valid points. Surely you are not so obtuse that you can't see that, are you?</p><p><span style="color: #00cc00"><u>In every single instance here</u>, my "nasty blah blah blah" has been in response to someone who started it. The only person I jumped the gun with was you, who I have apologized to - and apparently, I was probably right to bite back at you, given the drivel you are spewing here. I am not nasty unless it is warranted - and let's look at the responses, shall we? All brigands, trolls, opposing guild-people, bandwagoneers, etc. When you're done making me out to be the bad guy, maybe you can take a look at why I have responded to people in a certain manner. Oh wait, you can't be bothered. </span></p><p>Simply put, if you want to debate imbalance between classes and foster a discussion that might actually orchestrate some positive change, then you should just create a new thread to get it away from all the garbage in this one. Otherwise, don't expect much courtesy or Dev attention to what is just another whiny flamefest of a thread.</p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Again with your opinion. Great, close the thread, Oz has spoken!! Is some demonic force forcing you to post here? I'll call a priest, or maybe the GhostBusters. </span></p><p>Oh one last thing...I have a 70 Fury, 70 Warden, 70 Dirge, 70 Defiler, and 70 Swashbuckler, the latter two of which are Exiled. So you can take your "noob" comment and shove it up your [I cannot control my vocabulary] alongside that stick that seems permanently wedged there. Thanks!</p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">You left out the things you do not have - but I don't know whether that is a job, a life, friends, the ability to read at the 8th grade level, or all of the above. Pick one. Go play with your plethora of toons and go away. By the way, that giant yellow ball in the sky is a star called Sol, or the Sun. I just didn't want you to be startled should you ever choose to step outside, freak. </span></p></blockquote> </blockquote>I've been following this thread for a while.  In fact, though I've been playing for years and I check the class boards here, this will be my first post on SOE's forums.  Yes, your thread is galling enough that I registered just to respond to you.  In the interest of disclosure, let's start off:  no, I am not on a PvP server.  Yes, I played on a red server for years on EQLive.  Are the game mechanics slightly different on PvP servers?  Sure.  However, in EQLive, WoW, EQ2, DAoC, and every other game with PvP, certain things hold true.  You have 16 pages of ad-hominem attacks, and zero evidence of anything being wrong.  In ANY game, be it D&D, Diablo2, EQLive, EQ2, or something else you feel like throwing in, cloth casters have very little in the way of mitigation and HP.  Your basic complaint boils down to the fact that you, for some reason, feel like you should have some kind of special protection against high-DPS meleers.  At numerous points in the thread here, we've had brigs and swashies responding that they are ALSO at risk of this if they get jumped.  Go look at the combat log with Leap.  We've seen them say that tanky classes with high mitigation and reasonable DPS (SKs, 'zerkers) can just stand there and melee them to death as long as they see them coming.  What exactly is your problem?  You clearly want to keep whatever abilities you have as a conjuror and stack more nerfs on top of a class that just got some?  Note that while PvP is great, the PvE servers generate the most revenue stream for SOE.  With the already low playerbase of brigands in general, I fail to see what you hope to accomplish.  Are you just going to obstinately keep flaming people until the thread gets closed (I, for one, reported it)?  The balance is what it is, and that's somewhat variable, sure.  From the sounds of it, you had another long [I cannot control my vocabulary] about long-timer oneshot abilities (harmtouch, decap) and attribute the rebalancing solely to your whining.  Your mitigation sucks, and getting more gear is not going to help you significantly with that, nor should it.  You'll get more power, more INT, and the other things which define conjurors.  THOSE are your tools, not enough HP or mitigation to survive a doubleup, harmtouch, decapitate, sniper shot, or any other ability which can do mass damage to somebody with very little HP.  The fact that a brigand can drop your mitigation precipitously and burn you down does not make them overpowered.  It means they know how to play their class.  It worked that way in EQLive (rogues/monks/rangers vs. casties), WoW (rogues/hunters vs. casties), and it'll work that way in every other game you'll ever play. Let's break it down to basics: You childishly insist that there's a commonly-used hack out there.  You've posted combat logs, and many people have looked at them.  No hack there.  People have even identified the opening combo and what PvP gear he's wearing. You maintain that GMs are "investigating" and that people have been "banned."  Where is your proof of this?  GMs do not tell you such things from a normal /report, and you've posted zero evidence to support your case.  Your original assertion was that disproportionately high numbers of FP characters were playing brigands and exploiting this.  Nobody else has come forward to support you (other than Leap, who recanted once he looked at the combat log).  The playerbase numbers also do not agree. You've resorted to seemingly baseless personal attacks as if they somehow abrogate your responsibility to face the mounting evidence against you.  Anybody who disagrees with you is a troll.  You're just responding to their attacks (as if that somehow makes it better even if it were the case, which it's not).  Multiple times,  you've proclaimed your superior PvP skills.  I don't play PvP in EQ2.  I'm not sure.  However, you seem to have a reputation, and not a good one.  Not one person has come forward to defend your talents.  A few people stopped taking the thread seriously once they found out who you were in-game.  Doesn't bode well for you. The reason why I quoted the reply above is that it exemplifies everything which is wrong with you.  He's listing out the facts as presented and giving you advice for getting positive feedback on the thread, and -maybe- even having a dev look at it instead of seeing as "another whinefest from dnice74."  You attacked his education level (which appears from an outside perspective to be at least on par with yours, and quite possibly better), debased his personal character and told him he "has no life" (I suppose making excessively long forum threads with no point is better than playing a game he obviously enjoys, even if you don't?), and called people who disagreed with you "All brigands, trolls, opposing guild-people, bandwagoneers, etc."  I suppose that'll include me?  This would be my first experience with you at all.  No vested interest in being on a bandwagon.  It was linked on the bruiser forums, and I thought it -might- get better and actually show something as the pages went on.  It did, clearly, but not whatever it was you were trying to bring to people's attention. Put simply (I think it needs to be for you to understand it), people like you ruin games.  You cannot expect the balance of the entire game to make a fulcrum shift in order for a squishy to walk all over everybody he encounters.  Brigs are effectively using the tools they have, that's all.  If you had a similar skillset,  you'd certainly use it also.  In DAoC, similar hordes of [Removed for Content] made assassins pretty much the only class worth playing.  In EQLive, SKs and Paladins pretty much lost the ability to tank; to the point where any other melee class did it better against raid bosses with untouchable discs, since 30 seconds is longer than the 1 second it took a knight to get onerounded, and group content in the last few expansions mandated a warrior.  In WoW, right now, druids are getting their DPS AND tanking abilities nerfed because PvP specced warriors feel that they should be better than every other class in PvE also, even though all of them admitted their tanking problems disappeared if they respecced to a more versatile setup.  Take a step back and contemplate which classes YOU can take out without much of a problem.  There's a balance, and that's it.  You've been told repeatedly that it's a group game.  Well, it is.  Certain classes are built to take out others, and if you were in a group you'd find a niche.  Solo, a high DPS meleer is going to kill you without much trouble. That's the game.  Take it or leave it.  For the sake of your server, please take the 2nd option, or grow up and play for fun.  Games are supposed to be fun, y'know?  Judging by how heated you're getting, you clearly have some kind of superiority complex, and I can't fathom why, though the persecution complex is obvious.  The notion that you're automatically more intelligent than everybody else, and they're "out to get you" for some reason is laughable.  Nobody's going to take you seriously. Before you reply to this with more off-the-wall personal attacks against somebody you've never seen before and is undeniably older, wiser, and more intelligent (yes, this is my judgement, but I've had pages and pages of your inane responses to read, whereas you've got one post), try actually reading and thinking about what I said.  If you must insist on flaming, I have ONE paragraph with personal comments about you, and it's the second to last.  Should you respond to well-reasoned arguments with petty temper tantrums, it'll eludicatingly show that you have no interest in making a more enjoyable experience, merely in correcting the "problems" with the game (namely that you cannot beat everybody with your eyes closed).</blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Cupcake! You made a post just to respond to me! Awwwww, that is so sweet. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Your qualifications of playing other PvP games don't mean jack, Mr. Guk. You've painted quite an elegant tapestry with this response, but here's what it boils down to: "I don't like you, so I'm going to get mine in". While your response is eloquent, your credentials are non-existent. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Chew on that, bud - because you can't refute it. Actually, there is a ton of easily debatable stuff in here: lots of hypocrisy, fundamental flaws in your thinking, lots of things to be disputed. You aren't anything special, my friend. You are just far more verbose, and a little brighter than the average bear. However, I'm sure the peanut gallery is happy to see a champion rise forth!</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Now, off to work. As I have said, I don't care anymore if the thread is locked, so good for you. If this thread is still open when I find time, you will have a reply.    </span></p>

Syslik
04-06-2007, 11:36 AM
<cite>dnice74 wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><cite>dnice74 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xova wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>dnice74 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Excuse me, weren't you the one demanding an apology earlier on? No problem, I can treat you like the rest of the trolls if that's how you want it. Take your 'kvetching and sneering' comments back to whatever noob zone you are leveling in at the moment and bite me. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Get a clue? Riiight. Tell you what, you prove to me that hacks don't exist and provide me with a way to monitor his machine, then I will agree 100% that there is no hack. You don't know he's not. I don't either, which is why I said maybe, you simpleton.   </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">I answered your post that way because you were not paying attention AT ALL to what I said in the post that you quoted. If you were, you would realize that your answer had nothing to do with what I said. Go re-read that post, it was pretty self-explanatory. If not, I suggest a reading comprehension course. And if you had bothered to read the thread, you would see how I've shifted gears because I HAVE BEEN LISTENING, WHICH IS WHY I CHANGED THE ORIGINAL THRUST OF THE THREAD and agree that it might not be a hack. If it is, the gm's will eventually find it. If not, they can see for themselves how op this crap is and report it to the devs. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">The point is: something is freaking wrong here. You boo-birds can dress up in as many frilly clothes as you like, but it won't change a damned thing. I shouldn't have to create a new thread for that just because you are too lazy to pick out the key points here (which I have repeated a lot at this point). </span></p></blockquote><p>I read your post, and my response was to your comments about hacking and "maybe he is, maybe he isn't." Having reviewed combat logs, talking to others, practicing with brigands, I know that's what he's doing and it's not a hack. Do hacks exist? Of course. Is one being used in this case? Nope. And considering you and your buddies have apparently reported him oh-so-many times for using a "hack" I think the fact that he's still playing should maybe clue you in that you were wrong.</p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Is english not your native tongue? Are you a psychic, perhaps? You don't know jack [I cannot control my vocabulary]. Yes, I am fully aware that he is a good player with good gear and that brigs get an utterly stupid AA combo. Part of my point, dipstick, was that I've talked about that already. But you couldn't be bothered to read all of the thread, could you? My word you are dense. The other part of the point is that I have conceded several times now that it might not be a hack, but you want to keep railing on with "it's not let it go." I won't until I have proof, so stop callousing your fingers. Maybe the fact that a GM was investigating him today should clue you into the fact that you're a [Removed for Content] masquerading your opinion as fact. </span></p><p>If you have truly changed the thrust of your complaint and are now conceding that it's not a hack, then leave it at that and quit with the flip-flopping "maybe it is maybe it isn't" and then you won't get people responding to you and telling you definitively that it's not hacking, but rather a clever use of in-game mechanics to make an overpowered class even moreso.</p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">First of all, if you don't like the thread, LEAVE. There is still a lot of good info in this thread, and if it was such an abomination, the mods would close it. I don't care if they do - I've made my point. But thanks for adding the fact that you think this is op, which accomplishes what I am looking for. I've only said it about 98374654239853280947 [I cannot control my vocabulary] times now - something is wrong here. I do not care how it is fixed, I only want it fixed. </span></p><p>My suggestion was to create a new post to make your points not because I or others are too lazy to read them, but rather because your name-calling and nasty, childish attitude detracts from what are otherwise valid points. Surely you are not so obtuse that you can't see that, are you?</p><p><span style="color: #00cc00"><u>In every single instance here</u>, my "nasty blah blah blah" has been in response to someone who started it. The only person I jumped the gun with was you, who I have apologized to - and apparently, I was probably right to bite back at you, given the drivel you are spewing here. I am not nasty unless it is warranted - and let's look at the responses, shall we? All brigands, trolls, opposing guild-people, bandwagoneers, etc. When you're done making me out to be the bad guy, maybe you can take a look at why I have responded to people in a certain manner. Oh wait, you can't be bothered. </span></p><p>Simply put, if you want to debate imbalance between classes and foster a discussion that might actually orchestrate some positive change, then you should just create a new thread to get it away from all the garbage in this one. Otherwise, don't expect much courtesy or Dev attention to what is just another whiny flamefest of a thread.</p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Again with your opinion. Great, close the thread, Oz has spoken!! Is some demonic force forcing you to post here? I'll call a priest, or maybe the GhostBusters. </span></p><p>Oh one last thing...I have a 70 Fury, 70 Warden, 70 Dirge, 70 Defiler, and 70 Swashbuckler, the latter two of which are Exiled. So you can take your "noob" comment and shove it up your [I cannot control my vocabulary] alongside that stick that seems permanently wedged there. Thanks!</p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">You left out the things you do not have - but I don't know whether that is a job, a life, friends, the ability to read at the 8th grade level, or all of the above. Pick one. Go play with your plethora of toons and go away. By the way, that giant yellow ball in the sky is a star called Sol, or the Sun. I just didn't want you to be startled should you ever choose to step outside, freak. </span></p></blockquote> </blockquote>I've been following this thread for a while.  In fact, though I've been playing for years and I check the class boards here, this will be my first post on SOE's forums.  Yes, your thread is galling enough that I registered just to respond to you.  In the interest of disclosure, let's start off:  no, I am not on a PvP server.  Yes, I played on a red server for years on EQLive.  Are the game mechanics slightly different on PvP servers?  Sure.  However, in EQLive, WoW, EQ2, DAoC, and every other game with PvP, certain things hold true.  You have 16 pages of ad-hominem attacks, and zero evidence of anything being wrong.  In ANY game, be it D&D, Diablo2, EQLive, EQ2, or something else you feel like throwing in, cloth casters have very little in the way of mitigation and HP.  Your basic complaint boils down to the fact that you, for some reason, feel like you should have some kind of special protection against high-DPS meleers.  At numerous points in the thread here, we've had brigs and swashies responding that they are ALSO at risk of this if they get jumped.  Go look at the combat log with Leap.  We've seen them say that tanky classes with high mitigation and reasonable DPS (SKs, 'zerkers) can just stand there and melee them to death as long as they see them coming.  What exactly is your problem?  You clearly want to keep whatever abilities you have as a conjuror and stack more nerfs on top of a class that just got some?  Note that while PvP is great, the PvE servers generate the most revenue stream for SOE.  With the already low playerbase of brigands in general, I fail to see what you hope to accomplish.  Are you just going to obstinately keep flaming people until the thread gets closed (I, for one, reported it)?  The balance is what it is, and that's somewhat variable, sure.  From the sounds of it, you had another long [I cannot control my vocabulary] about long-timer oneshot abilities (harmtouch, decap) and attribute the rebalancing solely to your whining.  Your mitigation sucks, and getting more gear is not going to help you significantly with that, nor should it.  You'll get more power, more INT, and the other things which define conjurors.  THOSE are your tools, not enough HP or mitigation to survive a doubleup, harmtouch, decapitate, sniper shot, or any other ability which can do mass damage to somebody with very little HP.  The fact that a brigand can drop your mitigation precipitously and burn you down does not make them overpowered.  It means they know how to play their class.  It worked that way in EQLive (rogues/monks/rangers vs. casties), WoW (rogues/hunters vs. casties), and it'll work that way in every other game you'll ever play. Let's break it down to basics: You childishly insist that there's a commonly-used hack out there.  You've posted combat logs, and many people have looked at them.  No hack there.  People have even identified the opening combo and what PvP gear he's wearing. You maintain that GMs are "investigating" and that people have been "banned."  Where is your proof of this?  GMs do not tell you such things from a normal /report, and you've posted zero evidence to support your case.  Your original assertion was that disproportionately high numbers of FP characters were playing brigands and exploiting this.  Nobody else has come forward to support you (other than Leap, who recanted once he looked at the combat log).  The playerbase numbers also do not agree. You've resorted to seemingly baseless personal attacks as if they somehow abrogate your responsibility to face the mounting evidence against you.  Anybody who disagrees with you is a troll.  You're just responding to their attacks (as if that somehow makes it better even if it were the case, which it's not).  Multiple times,  you've proclaimed your superior PvP skills.  I don't play PvP in EQ2.  I'm not sure.  However, you seem to have a reputation, and not a good one.  Not one person has come forward to defend your talents.  A few people stopped taking the thread seriously once they found out who you were in-game.  Doesn't bode well for you. The reason why I quoted the reply above is that it exemplifies everything which is wrong with you.  He's listing out the facts as presented and giving you advice for getting positive feedback on the thread, and -maybe- even having a dev look at it instead of seeing as "another whinefest from dnice74."  You attacked his education level (which appears from an outside perspective to be at least on par with yours, and quite possibly better), debased his personal character and told him he "has no life" (I suppose making excessively long forum threads with no point is better than playing a game he obviously enjoys, even if you don't?), and called people who disagreed with you "All brigands, trolls, opposing guild-people, bandwagoneers, etc."  I suppose that'll include me?  This would be my first experience with you at all.  No vested interest in being on a bandwagon.  It was linked on the bruiser forums, and I thought it -might- get better and actually show something as the pages went on.  It did, clearly, but not whatever it was you were trying to bring to people's attention. Put simply (I think it needs to be for you to understand it), people like you ruin games.  You cannot expect the balance of the entire game to make a fulcrum shift in order for a squishy to walk all over everybody he encounters.  Brigs are effectively using the tools they have, that's all.  If you had a similar skillset,  you'd certainly use it also.  In DAoC, similar hordes of [Removed for Content] made assassins pretty much the only class worth playing.  In EQLive, SKs and Paladins pretty much lost the ability to tank; to the point where any other melee class did it better against raid bosses with untouchable discs, since 30 seconds is longer than the 1 second it took a knight to get onerounded, and group content in the last few expansions mandated a warrior.  In WoW, right now, druids are getting their DPS AND tanking abilities nerfed because PvP specced warriors feel that they should be better than every other class in PvE also, even though all of them admitted their tanking problems disappeared if they respecced to a more versatile setup.  Take a step back and contemplate which classes YOU can take out without much of a problem.  There's a balance, and that's it.  You've been told repeatedly that it's a group game.  Well, it is.  Certain classes are built to take out others, and if you were in a group you'd find a niche.  Solo, a high DPS meleer is going to kill you without much trouble. That's the game.  Take it or leave it.  For the sake of your server, please take the 2nd option, or grow up and play for fun.  Games are supposed to be fun, y'know?  Judging by how heated you're getting, you clearly have some kind of superiority complex, and I can't fathom why, though the persecution complex is obvious.  The notion that you're automatically more intelligent than everybody else, and they're "out to get you" for some reason is laughable.  Nobody's going to take you seriously. Before you reply to this with more off-the-wall personal attacks against somebody you've never seen before and is undeniably older, wiser, and more intelligent (yes, this is my judgement, but I've had pages and pages of your inane responses to read, whereas you've got one post), try actually reading and thinking about what I said.  If you must insist on flaming, I have ONE paragraph with personal comments about you, and it's the second to last.  Should you respond to well-reasoned arguments with petty temper tantrums, it'll eludicatingly show that you have no interest in making a more enjoyable experience, merely in correcting the "problems" with the game (namely that you cannot beat everybody with your eyes closed).</blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Cupcake! You made a post just to respond to me! Awwwww, that is so sweet. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Your qualifications of playing other PvP games don't mean jack, Mr. Guk. You've painted quite an elegant tapestry with this response, but here's what it boils down to: "I don't like you, so I'm going to get mine in". While your response is eloquent, your credentials are non-existent. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Chew on that, bud - because you can't refute it. Actually, there is a ton of easily debatable stuff in here: lots of hypocrisy, fundamental flaws in your thinking, lots of things to be disputed. You aren't anything special, my friend. You are just far more verbose, and a little brighter than the average bear. However, I'm sure the peanut gallery is happy to see a champion rise forth!</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Now, off to work. As I have said, I don't care anymore if the thread is locked, so good for you. If this thread is still open when I find time, you will have a reply.    </span></p></blockquote>The fact that I haven't PvPed in EQ2 does not mean that I "don't know jack," but you can think what you like. The simple fact is that <b>every</b> fantasy game (I mentioned D&D, for instance, and I meant pencil & paper) has casters in the same position.  Low hitpoints, very little avoidance/mitigation/whatever.  You don't need any particular prescience to bear witness to something everybody knows, except for you (apparently).  I don't really need to refute anything you've said.  Nothing that you've listed is "debatable."  If there are fundamental flaws in my reasoning (and I see no inherent problem with the idea that a scout class can tear you apart in very little time if they get the jump on you), I don't see them.  The fact that I've not played PvP in EQ2 does not mean that I don't know the game.  Even in the PvE game, cloth casters don't survive very long against something hitting them.  Crowd control utilities (mez, fear, stun) or kiting are what you use for survival.  Your complaint was that you didn't even have enough time to turn on autoattack.  I fail to see how autoattack is going to save you, even if you do happen to have a weapon which procs a stun.  Rogue-like classes are the bane of casters in every PvP game on the market.  Why should this one be different? Call me a hypocrite if it makes you feel better.  /shrug  I see nothing hypocritical about saying I'm older, wiser, and more intelligent than somebody who consistently behaves like a petulant child.  Go ahead and threaten your guildies some more for disagreeing with you.

tshook
04-06-2007, 01:09 PM
<p>wow.... just wow. </p><p>please lock this thread... make it stop... it used to be fun but now its just painful.</p>

dnice74
04-06-2007, 01:23 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><cite>dnice74 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xova wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>dnice74 wrote:</cite><blockquote></blockquote></blockquote> </blockquote><p>I've been following this thread for a while.  In fact, though I've been playing for years and I check the class boards here, this will be my first post on SOE's forums.  Yes, your thread is galling enough that I registered just to respond to you.  In the interest of disclosure, let's start off:  no, I am not on a PvP server.  Yes, I played on a red server for years on EQLive.  Are the game mechanics slightly different on PvP servers?  Sure.  However, in EQLive, WoW, EQ2, DAoC, and every other game with PvP, certain things hold true.  </p><p>The fact that I haven't PvPed in EQ2 does not mean that I "don't know jack," but you can think what you like. The simple fact is that <b>every</b> fantasy game (I mentioned D&D, for instance, and I meant pencil & paper) has casters in the same position.  Low hitpoints, very little avoidance/mitigation/whatever.  You don't need any particular prescience to bear witness to something everybody knows, except for you (apparently).</p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Ah, the holes, the holes. So let's get this straight - you disliked what I wrote enough to come here and charge in on your white horse, further diluting the wreckage of the arguments I originally presented before this turned into me vs. almost everyone. Very constructive. Fact of the matter is, if you had wanted to say something constructive, you could have sent me a PM - you just wanted to take your swings. I hate to break it to you Galahad, but you're not fooling anyone here. You're no better than anyone else here slinging mud. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">And like I said to you before - your statements have no basis in fact. Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. Argue theory all you want, you have no time in the trenches. I find it laughable that someone "older, wiser, and more intelligent" than I am could make such an incredibly flawed statement. I'm going to repeat that so that it sinks in - that is preposterous. So experience means nothing? You haven't played one day of PvP in years, but you're going to tell me exactly how it works in this game because you used to play EQ1? Tell you what, why don't we just have people read books and forums on everything and not even bother, because clearly, that makes them experts, right? I could come up with 100 examples of how experience is king, but someone as "wise" as you should know this, shouldn't they?</span></p><p>You have 16 pages of ad-hominem attacks, and zero evidence of anything being wrong.  In ANY game, be it D&D, Diablo2, EQLive, EQ2, or something else you feel like throwing in, cloth casters have very little in the way of mitigation and HP.  Your basic complaint boils down to the fact that you, for some reason, feel like you should have some kind of special protection against high-DPS meleers.  At numerous points in the thread here, we've had brigs and swashies responding that they are ALSO at risk of this if they get jumped.  Go look at the combat log with Leap.  We've seen them say that tanky classes with high mitigation and reasonable DPS (SKs, 'zerkers) can just stand there and melee them to death as long as they see them coming.  What exactly is your problem?  You clearly want to keep whatever abilities you have as a conjuror and stack more nerfs on top of a class that just got some?  Note that while PvP is great, the PvE servers generate the most revenue stream for SOE.  With the already low playerbase of brigands in general, I fail to see what you hope to accomplish.  Are you just going to obstinately keep flaming people until the thread gets closed (I, for one, reported it)?  </p><p> <span style="color: #00cc00">Ad-hominem my [I cannot control my vocabulary]. I attacked them on the personal level after they did the same. Why don't you stop focusing on the evil poster and read what was said to me before I took my cuts back? Were some of the comments over-the-top? You're damned right they were, and shame on me for not walking away from them to begin with (I have done it quite often in this thread, but not nearly enough). In stooping to the level of insults, even if I was not the one to start it, I have indeed failed. I should turn a blind eye to the childish comments. On the other hand, you couldn't even go one post without doing it, so I will take your hypocritical lectures with a BIG grain of salt. Furthermore, if you are going to insult me, be prepared to reap what you sow. I won't be apologizing to anyone.  </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">What you don't realize - because hey, you have all the theory, so why bother, right? - is that ALL classes are in danger when they are jumped. I never said that PvP balance was broken in this game overall, I even said that they have done a good job. Since the last pvp update, you can tell when someone has good gear. It makes much more of a difference when they know how to play their class. But there are some unbalanced situations - scouts vs casters being the topic of this thread. In the case of the first, I can be sitting there with every spell buff up and still get whacked in 2 seconds. While there are many good fights in the game, this is not one of them. Should I get full-fabled only to die in 3 seconds? Run away from every scout? Roll a scout? Get a group? What is the point? I want classes to be on equal footing. A toon that can stand up to a beating from the best-geared swash on the server being healed by a well-geared Fury and then killing them both is balanced? Get the hell out of here. You display nothing but your lack of experience here. What a bunch of tripe. </span></p><p>The balance is what it is, and that's somewhat variable, sure.  From the sounds of it, you had another long [I cannot control my vocabulary] about long-timer oneshot abilities (harmtouch, decap) and attribute the rebalancing solely to your whining.  Your mitigation sucks, and getting more gear is not going to help you significantly with that, nor should it.  You'll get more power, more INT, and the other things which define conjurors.  THOSE are your tools, not enough HP or mitigation to survive a doubleup, harmtouch, decapitate, sniper shot, or any other ability which can do mass damage to somebody with very little HP.  The fact that a brigand can drop your mitigation precipitously and burn you down does not make them overpowered.  It means they know how to play their class.  It worked that way in EQLive (rogues/monks/rangers vs. casties), WoW (rogues/hunters vs. casties), and it'll work that way in every other game you'll ever play.</p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">You don't even play on a Pvp server, but you want to tell me the "balance is what it is"? You have to be kidding me, right? Secondly, I didn't attribute them changing it to my arguments. But if all classes are supposed to just keel over dead every 15 minutes, don't you think THEY WOULD HAVE LEFT IT(overpowered decaps/HT's) IN THE GAME? You didn't read that thread, either. Come to think of it, you probably didn't even read this one. I'm just curious, do you have any hard evidence to support any of your accusations against me? Hell no. You're a pompous windbag - nothing more. "Wiser", indeed. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Do you play a conjuror? I'm qualified to say what defines them, thanks. You aren't. Oh, brigands can kill me because they know how to play their class. Riveting. I forgot though - I don't. Thanks for reminding me.</span> Let's break it down to basics: You childishly insist that there's a commonly-used hack out there.  You've posted combat logs, and many people have looked at them.  No hack there.  People have even identified the opening combo and what PvP gear he's wearing.</p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Again - did you read the thread? Nope. I have left a LOT of room for doubt about a hack. I even changed the main thrust of the thread because I see what people are saying. However - I don't have proof there isn't, either. Keep parroting what other people have said, though. It's cute. </span> You maintain that GMs are "investigating" and that people have been "banned."  Where is your proof of this?  GMs do not tell you such things from a normal /report, and you've posted zero evidence to support your case.  </p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">My proof is in the reports they send back to me, or my guildmates talking to them and relaying it to me. Do you need an Indian trail guide here? Good grief. I never said they had been banned. I said it looked awfully suspicious. Did you read ANYTHING I said???? </span> Your original assertion was that disproportionately high numbers of FP characters were playing brigands and exploiting this.  Nobody else has come forward to support you (other than Leap, who recanted once he looked at the combat log).  The playerbase numbers also do not agree.</p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Brigands are the highest played scout, and 5th most played class overall, according to that chart. Furthermore, you aren't on a PvP server, either - oooops. There's that experience thing coming back to bite you in the [I cannot control my vocabulary] again. But nice try, spin doctor. </span> You've resorted to seemingly baseless personal attacks as if they somehow abrogate your responsibility to face the mounting evidence against you.  Anybody who disagrees with you is a troll.  You're just responding to their attacks (as if that somehow makes it better even if it were the case, which it's not). </p><p><span style="color: #00cc00"> Wrong again, tiger - but I've spoken to this already.</span> Multiple times,  you've proclaimed your superior PvP skills.  I don't play PvP in EQ2.  I'm not sure.  However, you seem to have a reputation, and not a good one.  Not one person has come forward to defend your talents.  A few people stopped taking the thread seriously once they found out who you were in-game.  Doesn't bode well for you.</p><p> <span style="color: #00cc00">No, I state facts. I am good at what I do. You make it sound like I use it in pickup lines or job interviews. You are basing my reputation BASED ON ONE THREAD FILLED WITH MY OPPONENTS' INSULTS? ha. hahahah. hahahahah. Just....man. Stop already. You do realize that many of these people don't like me because I kill their guildmates every day, don't you? No? Oh wait....you don't PvP. Thanks again for the insight, Captain America. </span> The reason why I quoted the reply above is that it exemplifies everything which is wrong with you.  He's listing out the facts as presented and giving you advice for getting positive feedback on the thread, and -maybe- even having a dev look at it instead of seeing as "another whinefest from dnice74."  You attacked his education level (which appears from an outside perspective to be at least on par with yours, and quite possibly better), debased his personal character and told him he "has no life" (I suppose making excessively long forum threads with no point is better than playing a game he obviously enjoys, even if you don't?), and called people who disagreed with you "All brigands, trolls, opposing guild-people, bandwagoneers, etc."  I suppose that'll include me?  This would be my first experience with you at all.  No vested interest in being on a bandwagon.  It was linked on the bruiser forums, and I thought it -might- get better and actually show something as the pages went on.  It did, clearly, but not whatever it was you were trying to bring to people's attention.</p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">This just gets better and better. It looks like you're defending a combination of Xova and Boz. Boz is a troll, but you don't know that from experience, do you? Ooooops. You have become better at Proving Dnice74's Points (231)! I was orginally too harsh with Xova, so I changed my reply to her, apologized in the sake of goodwill - and yet she still jumped down my throat, so she got what she deserved. Boo hoo. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">But the funny thing here is how you are pretending to be better than the other mudslingers. I spoke to this already, but I'll repeat it - you aren't. No vested interest my [I cannot control my vocabulary]. You don't like my posts, you rose to defend. Funny thing is, I do the same thing when I have a valid reason. You don't here. </span></p><p>Put simply (I think it needs to be for you to understand it), people like you ruin games.  You cannot expect the balance of the entire game to make a fulcrum shift in order for a squishy to walk all over everybody he encounters.  Brigs are effectively using the tools they have, that's all.  If you had a similar skillset,  you'd certainly use it also.  In DAoC, similar hordes of [Removed for Content] made assassins pretty much the only class worth playing.  In EQLive, SKs and Paladins pretty much lost the ability to tank; to the point where any other melee class did it better against raid bosses with untouchable discs, since 30 seconds is longer than the 1 second it took a knight to get onerounded, and group content in the last few expansions mandated a warrior.  In WoW, right now, druids are getting their DPS AND tanking abilities nerfed because PvP specced warriors feel that they should be better than every other class in PvE also, even though all of them admitted their tanking problems disappeared if they respecced to a more versatile setup.  Take a step back and contemplate which classes YOU can take out without much of a problem.  There's a balance, and that's it.  You've been told repeatedly that it's a group game.  Well, it is.  Certain classes are built to take out others, and if you were in a group you'd find a niche.  Solo, a high DPS meleer is going to kill you without much trouble.</p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Now I ruin games? I want balance, so I ruin games?? L O L. Are you a scout? They are using the tools they have, huh? So when assassins decapped for 7500, it was ok for them to "use the tools they had"? My word this is funny. Once again, dummy - I don't agree with the "rps" argument, because I think it is a crock. You can have fun-class defining abilities without being an OP nightmare. But rant on, my son. </span> That's the game.  Take it or leave it.  For the sake of your server, please take the 2nd option, or grow up and play for fun.  Games are supposed to be fun, y'know?  Judging by how heated you're getting, you clearly have some kind of superiority complex, and I can't fathom why, though the persecution complex is obvious.  The notion that you're automatically more intelligent than everybody else, and they're "out to get you" for some reason is laughable.  Nobody's going to take you seriously.</p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Did I say everyone? Nope. Would you like to talk about my mother, too? Your armchair psych routines, much like your paper-thin arguments, are laughable. You, sir, are a fraud, a hypocrite, and a joke. Oh, and by the way - come back when you have some chops, Mr. Bluebie. How's that for maturity? </span> Before you reply to this with more off-the-wall personal attacks against somebody you've never seen before and is undeniably older, wiser, and more intelligent (yes, this is my judgement, but I've had pages and pages of your inane responses to read, whereas you've got one post), try actually reading and thinking about what I said.  If you must insist on flaming, I have ONE paragraph with personal comments about you, and it's the second to last.  Should you respond to well-reasoned arguments with petty temper tantrums, it'll eludicatingly show that you have no interest in making a more enjoyable experience, merely in correcting the "problems" with the game (namely that you cannot beat everybody with your eyes closed).</p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">"but I only flamed you once, so it's ok!" Hypocrisy, thy name is Syslik. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Yes Syslik, clearly what I want is to make this game so easy as to be boring. Thanks for the insight. </span></p></blockquote>

tass
04-06-2007, 01:49 PM
jesus no wonder thing thing is so many pages. The replies should be god dam short stories lol

dnice74
04-06-2007, 02:21 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><cite>dnice74 wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><cite>dnice74 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xova wrote:</cite><blockquote>dnice74 wrote: </blockquote> </blockquote></blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Cupcake! You made a post just to respond to me! Awwwww, that is so sweet. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Your qualifications of playing other PvP games don't mean jack, Mr. Guk. You've painted quite an elegant tapestry with this response, but here's what it boils down to: "I don't like you, so I'm going to get mine in". While your response is eloquent, your credentials are non-existent. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Chew on that, bud - because you can't refute it. Actually, there is a ton of easily debatable stuff in here: lots of hypocrisy, fundamental flaws in your thinking, lots of things to be disputed. You aren't anything special, my friend. You are just far more verbose, and a little brighter than the average bear. However, I'm sure the peanut gallery is happy to see a champion rise forth!</span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Now, off to work. As I have said, I don't care anymore if the thread is locked, so good for you. If this thread is still open when I find time, you will have a reply.    </span></p></blockquote>The fact that I haven't PvPed in EQ2 does not mean that I "don't know jack," but you can think what you like. The simple fact is that <b>every</b> fantasy game (I mentioned D&D, for instance, and I meant pencil & paper) has casters in the same position.  Low hitpoints, very little avoidance/mitigation/whatever.  You don't need any particular prescience to bear witness to something everybody knows, except for you (apparently).  I don't really need to refute anything you've said.  Nothing that you've listed is "debatable."  If there are fundamental flaws in my reasoning (and I see no inherent problem with the idea that a scout class can tear you apart in very little time if they get the jump on you), I don't see them.  The fact that I've not played PvP in EQ2 does not mean that I don't know the game.  Even in the PvE game, cloth casters don't survive very long against something hitting them.  Crowd control utilities (mez, fear, stun) or kiting are what you use for survival.  Your complaint was that you didn't even have enough time to turn on autoattack. <b><i><u> I fail to see how autoattack is going to save you, even if you do happen to have a weapon which procs a stun.</u></i></b>  Rogue-like classes are the bane of casters in every PvP game on the market.  Why should this one be different? Call me a hypocrite if it makes you feel better.  /shrug  I see nothing hypocritical about saying I'm older, wiser, and more intelligent than somebody who consistently behaves like a petulant child.  Go ahead and threaten your guildies some more for disagreeing with you. </blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00">I missed this little gem. This is how you destroy assassins (assuming they don't have KB and Decap up), and it works to a lesser degree on brigands. You do this because it makes it a LOT harder for them to get behind you and use positionals. Furthermore, I have 4 different DS's to choose from to kill themselves with, two of which are always on. I have a half-[Removed for Content] AA heal (or a pet sacrifice which leaves me screwed unless I have managed to get them in the red) a magic-based stun, and a stoneskin that does jack [I cannot control my vocabulary] against scouts. I burn them down or I die. No evacs, no mez, no mend, no mit, nothing. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">You will not outrun a scout unless you see them coming a long ways off, and they are always hiding, waiting to jump out at you(usually because their timers have refreshed). So 9 times out of 10, you have little choice other than to burn them down - you do know they get snare and stun, right? Putting your back to a scout = dead mage. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">But you knew all this, because you PvP, right? [Removed for Content]. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Older? Who knows. Wiser? I pointed out how "wise" you were above. More intelligent? You have yet to prove it. And if you are - so? Like I have said once already - I don't consider myself exceptionally intelligent. So who cares? I'm certainly bright enough to refute your fantastically stupid points. </span></p>

Syslik
04-06-2007, 03:55 PM
<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] wrote: <blockquote> The reason why I quoted the reply above is that it exemplifies everything which is wrong with you.  He's listing out the facts as presented and giving you advice for getting positive feedback on the thread, and -maybe- even having a dev look at it instead of seeing as "another whinefest from dnice74."  You attacked his education level (which appears from an outside perspective to be at least on par with yours, and quite possibly better), debased his personal character and told him he "has no life" (I suppose making excessively long forum threads with no point is better than playing a game he obviously enjoys, even if you don't?), and called people who disagreed with you "All brigands, trolls, opposing guild-people, bandwagoneers, etc."  </blockquote><p>FYI -- you prolly don't know it, but Xova is a She.  No reason you would have known it, so no big deal.  Also, Xova is probably the EASIEST person to get along with from Vox when it comes to the Forums.  she has never "gotten nasty" that i've seen, nor lost her cool.  I've given her and her friend Z no end of BS on the forums, just screwing around, and she just _never_ loses it.  She even moonlights as the forum lawyer for unfounded attacks on just about anyone.  The fact that dnice can't have a civil conversation with HER just screams to anyone that knows these two that he's just not <i>interested</i> in having a civil conversation.  He wants to troll, and flame, and get lots of responses so he can say "I started a 20 page thread on this, and no one could beat my argument, blah blah blah".  Ignore him, and move on.  </p><p>There is an AWESOME community on the forums here, with people like Xova, Greenion for pvp, and a thousand cool pve folks who i enjoy reading their stuff.  Feel free to contribute through out the rest of the forums, and welcome <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Don't feed the trolls though.. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote>I suppose if that's the reputation Vox has, I won't be rolling a PvP character there anytime soon.  <cite>dnice74 wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><cite>dnice74 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xova wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>dnice74 wrote:</cite><blockquote></blockquote></blockquote> </blockquote><span style="color: #00cc00">Ah, the holes, the holes. So let's get this straight - you disliked what I wrote enough to come here and charge in on your white horse, further diluting the wreckage of the arguments I originally presented before this turned into me vs. almost everyone. Very constructive. Fact of the matter is, if you had wanted to say something constructive, you could have sent me a PM - you just wanted to take your swings. I hate to break it to you Galahad, but you're not fooling anyone here. You're no better than anyone else here slinging mud. </span><p><span style="color: #00cc00">And like I said to you before - your statements have no basis in fact. Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. Argue theory all you want, you have no time in the trenches. I find it laughable that someone "older, wiser, and more intelligent" than I am could make such an incredibly flawed statement. I'm going to repeat that so that it sinks in - that is preposterous. So experience means nothing? You haven't played one day of PvP in years, but you're going to tell me exactly how it works in this game because you used to play EQ1? Tell you what, why don't we just have people read books and forums on everything and not even bother, because clearly, that makes them experts, right? I could come up with 100 examples of how experience is king, but someone as "wise" as you should know this, shouldn't they?</span></p><p> <span style="color: #00cc00">Ad-hominem my [I cannot control my vocabulary]. I attacked them on the personal level after they did the same. Why don't you stop focusing on the evil poster and read what was said to me before I took my cuts back? Were some of the comments over-the-top? You're damned right they were, and shame on me for not walking away from them to begin with (I have done it quite often in this thread, but not nearly enough). In stooping to the level of insults, even if I was not the one to start it, I have indeed failed. I should turn a blind eye to the childish comments. On the other hand, you couldn't even go one post without doing it, so I will take your hypocritical lectures with a BIG grain of salt. Furthermore, if you are going to insult me, be prepared to reap what you sow. I won't be apologizing to anyone.  </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">What you don't realize - because hey, you have all the theory, so why bother, right? - is that ALL classes are in danger when they are jumped. I never said that PvP balance was broken in this game overall, I even said that they have done a good job. Since the last pvp update, you can tell when someone has good gear. It makes much more of a difference when they know how to play their class. But there are some unbalanced situations - scouts vs casters being the topic of this thread. In the case of the first, I can be sitting there with every spell buff up and still get whacked in 2 seconds. While there are many good fights in the game, this is not one of them. Should I get full-fabled only to die in 3 seconds? Run away from every scout? Roll a scout? Get a group? What is the point? I want classes to be on equal footing. A toon that can stand up to a beating from the best-geared swash on the server being healed by a well-geared Fury and then killing them both is balanced? Get the hell out of here. You display nothing but your lack of experience here. What a bunch of tripe. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">You don't even play on a Pvp server, but you want to tell me the "balance is what it is"? You have to be kidding me, right? Secondly, I didn't attribute them changing it to my arguments. But if all classes are supposed to just keel over dead every 15 minutes, don't you think THEY WOULD HAVE LEFT IT(overpowered decaps/HT's) IN THE GAME? You didn't read that thread, either. Come to think of it, you probably didn't even read this one. I'm just curious, do you have any hard evidence to support any of your accusations against me? Hell no. You're a pompous windbag - nothing more. "Wiser", indeed. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Do you play a conjuror? I'm qualified to say what defines them, thanks. You aren't. Oh, brigands can kill me because they know how to play their class. Riveting. I forgot though - I don't. Thanks for reminding me.</span> </p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Again - did you read the thread? Nope. I have left a LOT of room for doubt about a hack. I even changed the main thrust of the thread because I see what people are saying. However - I don't have proof there isn't, either. Keep parroting what other people have said, though. It's cute. </span> </p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">My proof is in the reports they send back to me, or my guildmates talking to them and relaying it to me. Do you need an Indian trail guide here? Good grief. I never said they had been banned. I said it looked awfully suspicious. Did you read ANYTHING I said???? </span> </p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Brigands are the highest played scout, and 5th most played class overall, according to that chart. Furthermore, you aren't on a PvP server, either - oooops. There's that experience thing coming back to bite you in the [I cannot control my vocabulary] again. But nice try, spin doctor. </span> </p><p><span style="color: #00cc00"> Wrong again, tiger - but I've spoken to this already.</span> </p><p> <span style="color: #00cc00">No, I state facts. I am good at what I do. You make it sound like I use it in pickup lines or job interviews. You are basing my reputation BASED ON ONE THREAD FILLED WITH MY OPPONENTS' INSULTS? ha. hahahah. hahahahah. Just....man. Stop already. You do realize that many of these people don't like me because I kill their guildmates every day, don't you? No? Oh wait....you don't PvP. Thanks again for the insight, Captain America. </span> </p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">This just gets better and better. It looks like you're defending a combination of Xova and Boz. Boz is a troll, but you don't know that from experience, do you? Ooooops. You have become better at Proving Dnice74's Points (231)! I was orginally too harsh with Xova, so I changed my reply to her, apologized in the sake of goodwill - and yet she still jumped down my throat, so she got what she deserved. Boo hoo. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">But the funny thing here is how you are pretending to be better than the other mudslingers. I spoke to this already, but I'll repeat it - you aren't. No vested interest my [I cannot control my vocabulary]. You don't like my posts, you rose to defend. Funny thing is, I do the same thing when I have a valid reason. You don't here. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Now I ruin games? I want balance, so I ruin games?? L O L. Are you a scout? They are using the tools they have, huh? So when assassins decapped for 7500, it was ok for them to "use the tools they had"? My word this is funny. Once again, dummy - I don't agree with the "rps" argument, because I think it is a crock. You can have fun-class defining abilities without being an OP nightmare. But rant on, my son. </span> </p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Did I say everyone? Nope. Would you like to talk about my mother, too? Your armchair psych routines, much like your paper-thin arguments, are laughable. You, sir, are a fraud, a hypocrite, and a joke. Oh, and by the way - come back when you have some chops, Mr. Bluebie. How's that for maturity? </span> </p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">"but I only flamed you once, so it's ok!" Hypocrisy, thy name is Syslik. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Yes Syslik, clearly what I want is to make this game so easy as to be boring. Thanks for the insight. </span></p></blockquote> </blockquote>Nobody's saying I'm "charging in" to save anything.  I thought that perhaps an outside perspective from somebody who you couldn't possibly think was "out to get you" would get through to you and show you how you're acting.  Seemingly not.  I have no interest in "taking swings," but a PM would have been fundamentally worthless.  Sometimes people need to see how they're acting in a public forum, that's all.  You can assume that I haven't played a day of PvP in years, because obviously DAoC isn't around anymore (wrong), WoW isn't around anymore (wrong), and I couldn't possibly play a game with far more brutal PvP than EQ2 (I do, EVE), could I?  You can find as many examples of "experience is king" as you want, but generally speaking, the balance in PvP games goes: Scout kills mage Tank kills scout Mage kills tank Priests vary somewhat, and I'm not precisely sure where they fit in EQ2, but you don't play a priest, and I made no assumptions about them.  As I mentioned, it's <b>always</b> been this way, in <i>every</i> fantasy game, though exceptional skill or gear can tip the balance.  Of course, anybody getting the jump makes all the difference, but you have butterfly, don't you?  Why did your combat log show your pet going in exceptionally late?  You have a stun, snare, knockdown, AND root as a conjuror.  Sure, the cast times are 2s or 3s, but a tankpet could have taunted that brig while you tied him up and ran away or attempted to kite.  The pet sac has a cast time of half a second.  Is it much health back?  Not really.  Enough to save you?  Maybe.  I'm not going to sit here and give you advice on how to play your class, but there <i>are</i> things you can do if you have a little warning.  You never bothered to answer which classes <b>you</b> can demolish with little trouble.  Conjurors are one of the highest DPSing classes in the game.  Is it fair to assume that you sometimes gank people?  Should they start [I cannot control my vocabulary] on the forums and accuse you of hacking?  I can tell you that dueling (no, it's not the same) a conjuror with my SK, seed+plane shift+elemental vestment are pathetically effective.  Does that need to be "balanced" also?  Do I play a conjuror?  Yes. Should you get full fabled only to die in 3 seconds?  Frankly, yes.  A T2 melee DPSer close enough to hit you <i>should</i> kill you in very little time, regardless of what buffs you have up.  Sorcerors and enchanters have a few things things (manashield, for instance, though it seems that this isn't very effective in T7) they can do.  Your defense and class-defining trait is your pet, really, not your ability to stand up to a swash/brig or ranger/assassin for extended periods of time in melee.  Did he take out your tankpet in 3 seconds?  No?  Stop [I cannot control my vocabulary].  Also comparisons about the "best geared $class" being healed by "well geared $worstparsinghealerinthegame" losing to the brig doesn't mean much.  The presumption would be that said players would be skilled.  Did the swash pop en-guarde, inspiration, and fitness?  Probably not, or things would have gone differently. I said you ruin games because it's attitudes precisely like yours combined with [I cannot control my vocabulary] on forums which turned EQLive (and is turning WoW's PvP, much as I think WoW sucks) into the [I cannot control my vocabulary] it was at the end.  You don't agree with RPS?  Too bad.  Play another game. Developers should not kowtow to whiny players who would like the balance changed completely just so they stand a better chance.  What would you have them do?  No more doubleup?  No more sailwind?  Increase your mitigation or avoidance by a ludicrous percentage?  There's no change they can make here without severely upsetting everything else. <cite>dnice74 wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><cite>dnice74 wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><cite>dnice74 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xova wrote:</cite><blockquote>dnice74 wrote: </blockquote> </blockquote></blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Cupcake! You made a post just to respond to me! Awwwww, that is so sweet. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Your qualifications of playing other PvP games don't mean jack, Mr. Guk. You've painted quite an elegant tapestry with this response, but here's what it boils down to: "I don't like you, so I'm going to get mine in". While your response is eloquent, your credentials are non-existent. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Chew on that, bud - because you can't refute it. Actually, there is a ton of easily debatable stuff in here: lots of hypocrisy, fundamental flaws in your thinking, lots of things to be disputed. You aren't anything special, my friend. You are just far more verbose, and a little brighter than the average bear. However, I'm sure the peanut gallery is happy to see a champion rise forth!</span></p></blockquote> </blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00">I missed this little gem. This is how you destroy assassins (assuming they don't have KB and Decap up), and it works to a lesser degree on brigands. You do this because it makes it a LOT harder for them to get behind you and use positionals. Furthermore, I have 4 different DS's to choose from to kill themselves with, two of which are always on. I have a half-[Removed for Content] AA heal (or a pet sacrifice which leaves me screwed unless I have managed to get them in the red) a magic-based stun, and a stoneskin that does jack [I cannot control my vocabulary] against scouts. I burn them down or I die. No evacs, no mez, no mend, no mit, nothing. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">You will not outrun a scout unless you see them coming a long ways off, and they are always hiding, waiting to jump out at you(usually because their timers have refreshed). So 9 times out of 10, you have little choice other than to burn them down - you do know they get snare and stun, right? Putting your back to a scout = dead mage. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">But you knew all this, because you PvP, right? [Removed for Content]. </span></p><p><span style="color: #00cc00">Older? Who knows. Wiser? I pointed out how "wise" you were above. More intelligent? You have yet to prove it. And if you are - so? Like I have said once already - I don't consider myself exceptionally intelligent. So who cares? I'm certainly bright enough to refute your fantastically stupid points. </span></p></blockquote>Frankly, this post is classic.  Yes, putting your back to a scout=dead mage.  However, both brigs and swashies are much less dependent on positionals than predators, and they have more HP than you.  I find it amusing that you think 2 DSes for ~60 each (or whatever amount they actually hit for in PvP) are going to take them down.  You simply don't have enough HP, and it's quite likely that even autoattacking you would outdamage the DS.  Brigs get snares, yes, and stuns, and a few knockdowns.  What's the stun length on your weapon?  30 seconds?  Your cast times are long enough that even if you <i>had</i> managed to stun him, you'd likely have gotten the same doubled-up combo.  Keep assuming that nobody who plays on a PvE server knows the game mechanics.  That'll suit you well.  Keep thinking that this is "imbalanced," and that 3 seconds is awful.  Then go log into EVE and head to 0.0  Get sniped at 300,000km by a battleship who you know can't possibly make it to your cans for no reason other than that he can.  Note:  when you get blown in EVE, your ship is gone.  You need to buy a new one.  If they kill the pod which comes out,  you can lose skill points (which come realtime).  You're telling me that <i>everybody</i> posting here has a vendetta because you've killed them?  Two of your guildies posted against you in this thread.  Again, we saw combat logs.  You implied people were banned for this (saying that you reported them and haven't seen them in weeks).  If you're getting responses to your reports, how about you screenshot them and post them here?  Most of all, you refuse to accept the limitations and weaknesses of your chosen class.  If you think you're actually getting to me, think again.  You can keep making snide comments about my "mudslinging," or that you don't think I'm older and more intelligent than you.  I really couldn't care less what you have to say about it until you start showing some actual evidence of anything, or reasons why you think it should be different that <i>make sense</i> and can be executed <b>without</b> destroying the balance for the rest of the game.  Think logically.  Don't say "I shouldn't die in 3 seconds."  What are they going to change in order to correct that "problem?"  What else will that affect? 

Bozidar
04-06-2007, 04:11 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>I suppose if that's the reputation Vox has, I won't be rolling a PvP character there anytime soon.  </blockquote>Sorry, what's the impression i gave you about Vox's reputation in that post?

Syslik
04-06-2007, 04:56 PM
<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>I suppose if that's the reputation Vox has, I won't be rolling a PvP character there anytime soon.  </blockquote>Sorry, what's the impression i gave you about Vox's reputation in that post?</blockquote>Not that post specifically, just that the general impression that I'm getting from the boards is that Vox is... stagnating, and that most of the playerbase which is active on the forums is hard to deal with.

kreepr
04-06-2007, 05:10 PM
<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>I suppose if that's the reputation Vox has, I won't be rolling a PvP character there anytime soon.  </blockquote>Sorry, what's the impression i gave you about Vox's reputation in that post?</blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000">I think hes talkin about  </span><b>dnice74  </b><span style="color: #ff0000">not you guys. Don't let that [I cannot control my vocabulary] sway you from rollin a toon on Vox, there are some really great people here. He's just not one of them. </span></p><p><span style="color: #ff0000">Oh and Bozidar come out with us we have been finding plenty of Q and slaying then lately.</span></p>

Spyderbite
04-06-2007, 05:13 PM
<cite>dnice74 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="color: #00cc00">I know this board isn't crawling with MIT grads, but [I cannot control my vocabulary] some of you are idiots. Yes Spider, that was another insult, pointed right at you. But I await your next ss, go nuts. </span> </p></blockquote> <img src="http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e101/DJSpyderBite/Humor/kitty-sad.jpg" border="0"> Anyone else feel like they're having a debate with an autistic child by the way?

Xova
04-06-2007, 05:48 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>I suppose if that's the reputation Vox has, I won't be rolling a PvP character there anytime soon.  </blockquote>Sorry, what's the impression i gave you about Vox's reputation in that post?</blockquote>Not that post specifically, just that the general impression that I'm getting from the boards is that Vox is... stagnating, and that most of the playerbase which is active on the forums is hard to deal with. </blockquote><p>The Vox players that are active on the forums really only make up a very, very small percentage of the server. Unfortunately that's all the PvE community has to go by when making an assessment of Vox, so some of us recognize that and *try* to put on a better face.</p><p>Thanks too, both of you, for the kind words. I'm really not bothered by dnice/Wreakinn's posts so much because in his desperate attempt to seem like a forums tough guy, he's making a mockery of himself. At this point his posts are comic relief, and it's sad because he does have some valid points, but they're overshadowed by his pathetically nasty attitude. I don't think anyone really takes him seriously anymore. He's a joke on Vox and now thanks to his verbal diarrhea here he's a joke gamewide. Sad.</p><p>By the way Wreakinn, since you brought it up, I have a BA in History, I work as an onsite manager of a swim resort for a large housing community in beautiful, SUNNY Southern California, have the good fortune to make enough money that I can spend it on the entertainment of my choice, a gorgeous 4 year-old son who (much to my delight) occupies quite a bit of my time, and yes English is my native tongue. I'm not proficient in Idiot, however thanks to your posts I'm picking a few things up here and there. Keep up the good work there Champ! <img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>[email protected] wrote: </p><blockquote> Anyone else feel like they're having a debate with an autistic child by the way? </blockquote><p>Spyder don't insult autistic children by comparing them to dnice! Shame on you!</p><p><img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

Ikuri
04-06-2007, 05:57 PM
<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] wrote: <blockquote> The reason why I quoted the reply above is that it exemplifies everything which is wrong with you.  He's listing out the facts as presented and giving you advice for getting positive feedback on the thread, and -maybe- even having a dev look at it instead of seeing as "another whinefest from dnice74."  You attacked his education level (which appears from an outside perspective to be at least on par with yours, and quite possibly better), debased his personal character and told him he "has no life" (I suppose making excessively long forum threads with no point is better than playing a game he obviously enjoys, even if you don't?), and called people who disagreed with you "All brigands, trolls, opposing guild-people, bandwagoneers, etc."  </blockquote><p>FYI -- you prolly don't know it, but Xova is a She.  No reason you would have known it, so no big deal.  Also, Xova is probably the EASIEST person to get along with from Vox when it comes to the Forums.  she has never "gotten nasty" that i've seen, nor lost her cool.  I've given her and her friend Z no end of BS on the forums, just screwing around, and she just _never_ loses it.  She even moonlights as the forum lawyer for unfounded attacks on just about anyone.  The fact that dnice can't have a civil conversation with HER just screams to anyone that knows these two that he's just not <i>interested</i> in having a civil conversation.  He wants to troll, and flame, and get lots of responses so he can say "I started a 20 page thread on this, and no one could beat my argument, blah blah blah".  Ignore him, and move on.  </p><p>There is an AWESOME community on the forums here, with people like Xova, Greenion for pvp, and a thousand cool pve folks who i enjoy reading their stuff.  Feel free to contribute through out the rest of the forums, and welcome <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Don't feed the trolls though.. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote>Yeh and not to mention she puts up with me lol.

Xova
04-06-2007, 06:09 PM
<cite>Ikuri wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] wrote: <blockquote> The reason why I quoted the reply above is that it exemplifies everything which is wrong with you.  He's listing out the facts as presented and giving you advice for getting positive feedback on the thread, and -maybe- even having a dev look at it instead of seeing as "another whinefest from dnice74."  You attacked his education level (which appears from an outside perspective to be at least on par with yours, and quite possibly better), debased his personal character and told him he "has no life" (I suppose making excessively long forum threads with no point is better than playing a game he obviously enjoys, even if you don't?), and called people who disagreed with you "All brigands, trolls, opposing guild-people, bandwagoneers, etc."  </blockquote><p>FYI -- you prolly don't know it, but Xova is a She.  No reason you would have known it, so no big deal.  Also, Xova is probably the EASIEST person to get along with from Vox when it comes to the Forums.  she has never "gotten nasty" that i've seen, nor lost her cool.  I've given her and her friend Z no end of BS on the forums, just screwing around, and she just _never_ loses it.  She even moonlights as the forum lawyer for unfounded attacks on just about anyone.  The fact that dnice can't have a civil conversation with HER just screams to anyone that knows these two that he's just not <i>interested</i> in having a civil conversation.  He wants to troll, and flame, and get lots of responses so he can say "I started a 20 page thread on this, and no one could beat my argument, blah blah blah".  Ignore him, and move on.  </p><p>There is an AWESOME community on the forums here, with people like Xova, Greenion for pvp, and a thousand cool pve folks who i enjoy reading their stuff.  Feel free to contribute through out the rest of the forums, and welcome <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Don't feed the trolls though.. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote>Yeh and not to mention she puts up with me lol. </blockquote> That's because I <3 you. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Bozidar
04-06-2007, 06:38 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>I suppose if that's the reputation Vox has, I won't be rolling a PvP character there anytime soon.  </blockquote>Sorry, what's the impression i gave you about Vox's reputation in that post?</blockquote>Not that post specifically, just that the general impression that I'm getting from the boards is that Vox is... stagnating, and that most of the playerbase which is active on the forums is hard to deal with. </blockquote><p> i think the transfers have vox in a state of.. everyone not knowing what things are going to be like.</p><p> The forums are generally fine.. as far as pvp server boards go.  the good news is that dnice rarely goes there <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

Syslik
04-06-2007, 06:49 PM
Fantastic news, really. Perhaps I'll roll up something on Vox this weekend.

Titan-X
04-09-2007, 02:05 PM
<cite>dnice74 wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>OMG I had to apologize to myself for reading this entire thread…. OP: did you by chance, go back through the board and read about brigands? I only ask this because it has been discussed countless time that a brigand is a very powerful class. Had you done your research you would have discovered that not long ago SOE did something about it…You start your thread with “I am not whining”, yet page after page this is a veiled call for the further nerfing of a class and you whining about getting owned. All I can say is “Welcome to the wonderful world of PvP”, if you played a class to T7 and you don’t like what you see you have a few options. Suck it up, go play another game or reroll. Easy as 1,2,3.. </blockquote><p> <span style="color: #00cc00">Hi noob: did you by chance, read through this thread....at all? "Welcome to the wonderful world of pvp?" r...o...f...l. Again - did you read this thread? I suggest you do so before you come here with such inane statements. Your statement adds nothing to this conversation, you clearly didn't read the entire thread, and for some reason your post reeks of someone who is T5 and shouldn't be here to begin with, like many others in this thread. </span></p><p><span style="font-size: medium"><span style="color: #00cc00">EDIT: Here is the clincher that you didn't read this thread: you're in QG? You read this thread, and you don't know who I am by now? I love it when my own guild members don't pay attention. I'll be looking for an apology tonight, [I cannot control my vocabulary]. </span></span></p></blockquote>No, I read the post. The entire thread. Yes my toon in QG guild is t5..I also have two 70s, 3 20's, 2 40's, does that make me qualified to tell you that your a [Removed for Content] now? Secondly nothing you have posted has made me change my opinion even a little. The fact remains you have ran to the forums to cry about a class and that is about it. As for a apology "kiss my a.."..Does that make you feel all warm and fuzzy?

Bozidar
04-09-2007, 02:28 PM
<p>Oh he's so going to kick you out of the guild now!!!!!!!</p><p>And tbh.. you'll be way better off <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

Titan-X
04-09-2007, 02:39 PM
<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Oh he's so going to kick you out of the guild now!!!!!!!</p><p>And tbh.. you'll be way better off <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote><p> lol <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>