One Hand vs DW - Which is better and why?

[Toonmaster]

Anyone have good information on the one hand with open second hand - vs - dw as far as damage output is concerned?

[Bootstwadd]

<p>See the stickies at the top of the Brig main  page?  The one called KOS Rogue Achievement Analysis (or something like that) will give you everything you need to know about...well, everything Rogue AA.</p>

[Jida]

That post is kinda dated.

[Azbadon]

Personally, as a PVP Brigand, I am a fan of DW. I am currently STR/AGI, and sailwind makes all the difference. Add my sailwind to all the STR casting debuffs, and I have a giant advantage. Also, with sailwind and some swift clicks, Double Up -> Tripple up.

[daboa]

<p>I have some rudementary tests with each situation and the conclusion always came out DW is better DPS all around.  The 1H spec is dying out. unless you can get your hands on the uber raid weps with 90+dmg rating. your not goign to get much higher damage.  You are also talking about a totaly differant style of play too, with DW you go with fast weps, and DPS mod.  With the 1H spec you want most crit chance you can get the slowest wep you can find and lots upon lots of haste(so really only works in raids).</p><p>Brig is also a class that con not continualy spam there CA(damage ones atleast) so you will be doing alot more auto attack damage then other scout classes.  And for auto attack damage nothing Beats DW. </p>

[Kegofbud]

<cite>daboa wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I have some rudementary tests with each situation and the conclusion always came out DW is better DPS all around.  The 1H spec is dying out. unless you can get your hands on the uber raid weps with 90+dmg rating. your not goign to get much higher damage.  You are also talking about a totaly differant style of play too, with DW you go with fast weps, and DPS mod.  With the 1H spec you want most crit chance you can get the slowest wep you can find and lots upon lots of haste(so really only works in raids).</p><p>Brig is also a class that con not continualy spam there CA(damage ones atleast) so you will be doing alot more auto attack damage then other scout classes.  And for auto attack damage nothing Beats DW. </p></blockquote><p> You have an awful lot of speculation built there. I'll give you that it takes a good quality 1 hander to make it worth it, but you started making assumptions past that. I have plenty of parses and reasons why WIS line is very viable, even in 80s for DR. </p><p>For maxing damage on WIS line, maxing DPS mod over haste is my choice DW or 1H.</p><p>As for "nothing beating DW for auto-attack damage"...that's assumption as well. With WIS line you are double attacking constantly with a higher DR weapon, meaning higher damage top end for each hit, 72% of the time - twice. Both lines are very viable and an educated choice of an AA line is based on the quality of each style of weapon you can obtain. Which style auto-attacks for more is based on that quality. There is no huge leader either way, because of the situational setups and gear.</p><p>The only case I would ignore WIS line in is PVP - for Sailwind to dump everything as fast as possible. I'm not here to argue over any of it, but saying WIS is a dying line is way incorrect.</p>

[Rokjin]

<p>Actually AGI + WIS is very good for PvP, since Coule is a very nice defense boost, and since you can have Sailwind now too.</p><p>AGI + STA could be better for solo PvP though probably due to being tougher.</p><p>A DW STR+AGI spec can do plenty of damage, but it's strength lies with CAs and short fights. WIS does the best job of raising auto-attack damage, which is the biggest chunk of our DPS next to CAs on Raids, so it shines there.</p><p> No spec has died out, except maybe for Int.</p>

[Tholar]

well int is used by some brigands soloing a lot where you can train to a certain point and then just fd. but that's it pretty much, no use in raids anymore. for the wis line: wis line (+agi or str) is already better with a 80+ damage rating weapon (ancient sarnak war cutlass or ancient vorpal blade for example) or equal to a good dual wield setup. if you can get chel'drak's shard or better (folded scale blade or the dream of every brigand: the clearcutter machete *drooool*) you would be better off with wis line. i went from SA on str+wis to agi+wis to try out if i parse any higher etc, it was higher, i parsed about 200 dps higher on fights in fth than before. i also tested out then a good dw setup (rapier of darkness + vampiric axe of balance) which was a little better, not too much, but a little better, since i thought i would never get my hands on cd shard (which is now possible) or that there isnt any good 1 hander for scouts in EoF (just 1 week later the machete was discovered -.-). now i understand that most of the brigands would go for Str and Wis because of Traumatic Swipe to help the raid, but if you have already 2 or more rogues in your raid with TS you should try out agi + wis setup. "But all the Crits!!!" - well there are so many items with +% crit on ingame already: league bracers and earring, relic hunter's solitaire, dedicated wrap or kindred cloak of the warrior or then Mistmoore's Cloak, MoA4 reward, Coat of static aura or if you're lucky enough to get all 7 eof class pieces = 17% if you have all the good things + base crit chance = 18% melee crit chance already on your own. in a raid you will certainly have a bard in your group with "Dont kill the Messenger"-Buff, which ups your crit chance by 7.5% too. so that would be already a lot crit chance + 16% proc + double attack on a 80+ damage rating weapon, which is really nice.

[Rob89]

<p>Well... This really depends. Considering the DW'S that exist in the game now that got 65+ dmg rating and such. If you get 2 of the best Dw's ingame the wis line and 1 handed weapon is like nothing.</p><p> Dw's only best if you get REALLY good dualwield weapons. That is better dps. Atm im using Shadow Axe still but looking for 2 dual wields atm. More stats from dualwields and such.</p><p>AA line for Dualwields are ofc Str and Agi.</p><p>The segmented rumbler drops a dualwield sword with 65 dmg rating and 2% or 5% crit chanse on it and i think it had 32str, 32agi and 32 Sta on it.. dont remember. Just remember that its the best dw ive seen ingame.</p>

[Goonch]

<p>How many threads do we need on this debate, lols.</p><p> I'll say what I always say.   Unless you have Shard, Machette, or maybe the Axe of Natural Order (ask Geradin)  you are better off dwing as a raiding brig.  I'll take the pepsi challenge against any vorpal or sarmak or shadowaxe or that whip from sawtooth wielder vs me dw'ing with rapier of darkness and dirk of negativity (2 easily obtainable dws) anyday of the week.  </p><p>I'm not being cocky, I am just speaking from plenty of experience.</p>

[Damari]

Whats the ratio/formula for determining the higher DR ratio again for determining OH vrs DW?  I'll put it in the guide.

[Crimson Dragon]

bottom line is that it's a matter of preference. zandus, i've used the shard (still have it, but it's retired)... and i'm getting equivalent dps from wurmslayer and the dirk of negativity (rallos bless sailwind and mental breach). i used both spec's post-EoF, so any changes that came with that didn't affect it, and i even had str/wis after they gave us easy access to the end abilities. i've parsed a lot of fights on both sides (agi vs wis), and from my experience the dps is the same. it varies with both lines depending on procs achieved, crits achieved, hit %, etc... but the averages were the same. so the real question is... do you want to be a fencer? do you want lunge reversal, double attacks, a raised riposte chance, and possibly increased combat skills? also factor in here that you only need one weapon, which could make this line easier to use. or, do you want to be a pirate? do you want the backstab proc, the rapier turn, and the faster casting times? honestly, that's the question. there is no "which is better"... because it's all a matter of player preference. the strength line is the "no-brainer" for dps. crits are where it's at and if you're raiding (i don't see why you're too worried about dps if you're not...) then you're going to want traumatic swipe. so what'll it be? fencer or pirate?

[Israphil]

In my experience, the weapons at your disposal should determine the aa spec you take. You're by no means locked in; I'd go with the times, and as other items become available I'd consider switching aa lines. Rapier of Darkness/Dirk of Negativity: Str/Agi; both have high max/min crit ranges, and as DWs wis line is clearly out. Chel'Drak's Shard: Str/Wis: High max/min crit range, amazing 1hander. Clearcutter Machete: Agi/Wis: Low max/min dmg range makes crits much much less beneficial with this weapon than with Chel'drak's shard, and this seems to be a trend in the new weapons SoE is releasing. I honestly would contend that down the road this weapon is not going to be terribly desirable, since most of the high end scout items bump crit %, and the crit range for this weapon is downright abysmal. At the moment that's the order I would say would be the damage escalation considering weapon/aa spec pairs. Other good weapons for Str/Agi dwing would include the weapon from Sarik the Fang, the Vampiric Axe of Balance from Enynti, GDoH (of course), and the DW from Sariah the Bloomseeker. Not only does a strong 1hander tend to parse (albeit a small bit) ahead of DWing if these weapons are available to you, but there is less demand for 1handers, while you'll be competing with predators and bards for all DWers. The only classes that 1handers are a given for are Crusaders (1? on raid), Guardian (1? on raid), Zerker (1? on raid), and swashies (1-2 on raid?).

[Efour EQ2]

<p>STR/AGi is so versatile.</p><p>you get your soloing tools and your raiding tools, fairly good crit boost and sailwind for unloading as fast as possible... when you really need to.  </p><p> a good rapier and a good slash sword pair and you can primary rapier for Walk the plank, extremely useful in tight situations in groups and equip the sword for raids where you get your traumatic swipe and Torpourous swipe.</p><p>It may not be 100% optimal for min maxers but i coubt ill swap to str/wis for Pve</p>

[Goonch]

Israphil@Unrest wrote: <blockquote>In my experience, the weapons at your disposal should determine the aa spec you take. You're by no means locked in; I'd go with the times, and as other items become available I'd consider switching aa lines. Rapier of Darkness/Dirk of Negativity: Str/Agi; both have high max/min crit ranges, and as DWs wis line is clearly out. Chel'Drak's Shard: Str/Wis: High max/min crit range, amazing 1hander. Clearcutter Machete: Agi/Wis: Low max/min dmg range makes crits much much less beneficial with this weapon than with Chel'drak's shard, and this seems to be a trend in the new weapons SoE is releasing. I honestly would contend that down the road this weapon is not going to be terribly desirable, since most of the high end scout items bump crit %, and the crit range for this weapon is downright abysmal. At the moment that's the order I would say would be the damage escalation considering weapon/aa spec pairs. Other good weapons for Str/Agi dwing would include the weapon from Sarik the Fang, the Vampiric Axe of Balance from Enynti, GDoH (of course), and the DW from Sariah the Bloomseeker. Not only does a strong 1hander tend to parse (albeit a small bit) ahead of DWing if these weapons are available to you, but there is less demand for 1handers, while you'll be competing with predators and bards for all DWers. The only classes that 1handers are a given for are Crusaders (1? on raid), Guardian (1? on raid), Zerker (1? on raid), and swashies (1-2 on raid?). </blockquote><p>So the machete's 1:3 (70-210) ratio compared with the shard's 1:4 (44-176)  is abyssmal?  I disagree.  My zw has gone up at least 100-200 over dwing, And when I spoke with Ociadia from strike he said the machette raised his zw by about 100 over his previous shard.  </p><p>/edit:  One thing to remember here.  I percieve my class as a debuff 1st, dps 2nd.  That being said I would never take agi/wis EVER and lose swipe as a raiding brigand.  This expansion that CA is a gamebreaker.  Especially in 9+ minute avatar fights.  Now some of you may have 2 swashies and 2 brigs in every raid.  Even in that scenario I would still take swipe.  Fights like avatars, gardener, farstrider unicorn, and wuoshi swipe misses often even with max slash or pierce.   </p><p>So that being said, I don't think that an extra bit of personal dps outweighs swipe.  This is assuming agi/wis would gain you more dps than str/wis and i just dont believe it would, but I wouldn't know, and I admit it, because I'd never bother. </p>

[Zygwen]

I wrote a little program that helps me estimate weapon dps. %Haste 0, +dps 0, %Crit 1                                     Folded Scale Blade    Qeynos Kilij        Chel'Drak's Shard  Axe of Natural Order  Clearcutter Machete                                     (90.8 Rating)            (76.8 Rating)        (87.8 Rating)        (87.8 Rating)            (93.2 Rating) Damage Ratio:                   2.98                             2.96                   4                        5.62                        3         dps Without Crits:             45.43                            38.43                 44                        43.87                    46.66 dps With Crits:                  45.66                            38.65                44.29                    44.21                    46.93 dps With Procs:                 45.4                              61.20                56.36                    43.87                    63.91 dps With Procs and Crits:   45.66                            61.49                56.69                    44.21                    64.23 %Haste 0, +dps 0, %Crit 25                                      Folded Scale Blade    Qeynos Kilij        Chel'Drak's Shard  Axe of Natural Order  Clearcutter Machete                                     (90.8 Rating)            (76.8 Rating)        (87.8 Rating)        (87.8 Rating)            (93.2 Rating) Damage Ratio:                   2.98                            2.96                   4                        5.62                        3        dps Without Crits:             45.4                             38.43                 44                      43.875                    46.66 dps With Crits:                  51.93                           43.95                 51.41                 52.31                     53.40 dps With Procs:                 45.4                             61.20                56.36                  43.87                    63.91 dps With Procs and Crits:   51.93                           68.43                64.69                  52.31                    71.95 %Haste 0, +dps 0, %Crit 50                                      Folded Scale Blade    Qeynos Kilij        Chel'Drak's Shard  Axe of Natural Order  Clearcutter Machete                                     (90.8 Rating)            (76.8 Rating)        (87.8 Rating)        (87.8 Rating)            (93.2 Rating) Damage Ratio:                   2.98                             2.96                   4                        5.62                        3        dps Wdps Without Crits:    45.4                             38.43                  44                      43.875                    46.66 dps With Crits:                  58.47                            49.46                58.82                  60.75                      60.15 dps With Procs:                 45.4                              61.20                56.36                  43.87                     63.91 dps With Procs and Crits:   58.47                            75.65                73.03                  60.75                     79.98 %Haste 0, +dps 0, %Crit 100                                      Folded Scale Blade    Qeynos Kilij        Chel'Drak's Shard  Axe of Natural Order  Clearcutter Machete                                     (90.8 Rating)            (76.8 Rating)        (87.8 Rating)        (87.8 Rating)            (93.2 Rating) Damage Ratio:                   2.98                             2.96                   4                        5.62                        3        dps Without Crits:              45.4                             38.43                  44                      43.875                   46.66 dps With Crits:                  71.54                            60.50                 73.64                 77.63                    73.63 dps With Procs:                 45.4                              61.20                56.36                  43.87                    63.91 dps With Procs and Crits:   71.54                            90.10                89.71                 77.63                    96.05 As you can see, discounting procs, Chel'drak shard will eventualy match the dps of Clearcutter with a high crit chance. Axe of Natural order beats both of them. However, when you factor in innate proc abilities, Clearcutter beats the rest even at 100% crit chance. P.S. sorry for the messy table, the forum ate my nice one <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Israphil]

Nice, have you run any comparison with Clearcutter str/wis specced as compared to agi/wis specced? Just curious.

[Turb]

<p>I'm a little confused - your dps figures are in the 10's not the hundreds...?</p>

[Azbadon]

edit: He explained it below =P

[Goonch]

<p>Thanks Evalin.  You should publish your app and share =).   </p><p>Grats on matron btw, buddy!  </p>

[Zygwen]

<cite>Goonch wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Thanks Evalin.  You should publish your app and share =).   </p></blockquote> If I wasn't worried about chewing up all my bandwidth I would. It is still work in progress though for example I think I need to split the crit percentage between procs and auto attack. If I understand correctly, proc crit percentage is based of your spell crit chance and auto attack is based on your melee crit chance so they really should be two seperate variables. My program is based on the formulas in this post <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=191114" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=191114</a> The numbers I posted assumed that you had no damage modifications apart from critical hits. That would be equivalent to soloing with no buffs up. If you want to see bigger numbers here is a calculation based on %haste = 125, +dps = 125, %double Attack = 72, crit% = 25 and debuff damage multiplier = 2. These numbers are basically one of the previous set of numbers multiplied by 2.25*2.25*1.72*2. Keep in mind these are only estimates and may not agree completely with real parses. They are still useful for giving a general idea of how weapons should compare.                                    Folded Scale Blade       Qeynos Kilij       Chel'Drak's Shard       Axe of Natural Order       Clearcutter Machete                                        (90.8 Rating)           (76.8 Rating)          (87.8 Rating)          (87.8 Rating)                   (93.2 Rating) Damage Ratio:                     2.98                         2.96                          4                          5.62                                     3 dps Without Crits:             790.64                     669.38                      766.26                  764.08                                812.7 dps With Crits:                  904.45                      765.45                      895.34                   911.07                                930.11 dps With Procs:                 790.64                     771.85                      821.88                   764.08                               890.32 dps With Procs and Crits:   904.45                     875.60                       955.13                    911.07                            1013.55

[Azbadon]

Zyg, with the new forum systems, it does not alert you to new PMs, but I sent one =P

[Crimson Dragon]

<cite>Goonch wrote:</cite><blockquote> So that being said, I don't think that an extra bit of personal dps outweighs swipe.  This is assuming agi/wis would gain you more dps than str/wis and i just dont believe it would, but I wouldn't know, and I admit it, because I'd never bother. </blockquote> and why would you pass up the crit chance?

[Goonch]

<p>I wouldn't.</p><p>I was speaking from the context of the other posters belief that agi/wis would net you more dps than str/wis with the machete.  Though I find it unprobable, I can't say for sure because I haven't tested it to prove otherwise.</p>