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View Full Version : Dimishing curve, Tanks and PvP (can a red name give us some official word?)


ZhouYu
03-13-2007, 11:03 PM
<p><i>(please excuse the spelling errors, english isn;t my first language) </i></p><p><i>Sorry if this post is going to sound like a whine but its something that must be said and hope it gets some DEV attention. One problem I have noticed with this game is that "tanks" aren't really tanks. Well yes they do get taunts, but overall they just don't feel like classes that can take a lot of beating. Now you might jump off and say you disagree because so and so tanked xxx mob with no problems, but I'm not talking about pve, im taliing about tank's role in pvp. </i></p><p><i>A scout class in chain armor + jewl and other fabe gear has nearly as much physical mig as a tank has if not more. They also have more avoidance, resist since most of it comes from jewls are almost identical. This have been a long standing problem in EQ2 but it has become even more of an issue ever since the "diminishing" curve system went live. Now that little extra mig that we had is longer any of an advantage what so ever. A scout is a better pvp tank than any tank class in the game right now. My SK in full relic gear, all eof resistt jewl has only 2.5% more mig than a scout in same gear. Now this wouldn't have been a problem if my DPS was only 2% lower than scouts. This is a major issue for us tanks and for pvp servers in general, this is one of the reasons everyone and their dog has a scout class (specially brigand or swashy). </i></p><p><i>So lets look at it thsi way, a scout does 5x+ the dps any tank class does, and their mig is only 2% less ..avoidance is higher and resists are about even. there is clearly a flaw in game designe here. I have never played a game where a tank class had only 2% more mig than the dps classes. In Vanguard for example plate armor has x2 the mig than a chain armor has, and their dps classes dont do nearly as much damage as scouts here do.  I wish a DEV would explain to us why there is such an unbalancement in the game system. </i></p><p><i>Now I'm not calling the usual "nerf the scouts" line but how about making tanks able to actually tank in pvp ? able to take a few hits before they go down ? The dimishing cure system has basiclly kileld tanks in pvp, I hope a developer can read this and bring thsi up in their meetings. </i></p><p><i>ok enough of ranting, let me know what you think about this subject.</i></p>

Kurindor_Mythecnea
03-13-2007, 11:08 PM
I think that this is a perspective not many people pay enough attention to and I'd agree. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

PeaSy1
03-14-2007, 02:14 AM
Tbh I dont have a prob with plate tanks in pvp. Our pvp group had a sick zerker that took a barrel full of damage and held most groups on him for our fight (i was quite blessed being the clothy)

Norrsken
03-14-2007, 03:58 AM
Yes, there are tank issues, and the mit isnt the only one. the reason mit and resists are the way they are is IMHO that they have broken itemization. They gave too much to everyone. :/ nothing you cant remedy, but you need to either take out a big frekkin nerfy bat and smash all gear, or raise the lvl cap far enough to make the current gear useless, and then NOT give mad stats to everyone.

Darlion
03-14-2007, 06:03 AM
My only suggestion to tanks out there is to stop beefing up your mitigation, with the current system it's near worthless. Aim for things with +defense and +parry. Dark Chitin rings over light! Avoidance is king, and all that. Anyway with the current system the best damage sinks are brawlers. With the right items they can have comparable mitigation, and as high as 70% avoidance. Plate tanks need a serious bonus to where their mitigation starts tapering off, because we still have pitiful offensive skills (except for zerkers, they are nuts), and now, while we have the highest mitigation, the next highest has 10X the offensive power and like 90% the mitigation we have.

Killque
03-14-2007, 06:17 PM
<p>Take a scout with 500 Mit and 10% avoidance and put him up against an even con mob. See how long it takes him to die just standing there.</p><p>Do the same exact thing with the same exact stats level etc with a guardian and you will then see the difference.</p><p>The numbers mean only so much, un shown class/race things are at work here.</p>

ZhouYu
03-14-2007, 06:23 PM
<cite>Killque wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Take a scout with 500 Mit and 10% avoidance and put him up against an even con mob. See how long it takes him to die just standing there.</p><p>Do the same exact thing with the same exact stats level etc with a guardian and you will then see the difference.</p><p>The numbers mean only so much, un shown class/race things are at work here.</p></blockquote><p> <i>Please read a post completely before posting a reply. this is about tank's issues in pvp not pve. </i></p>

Killque
03-14-2007, 06:36 PM
<cite>ZhouYu wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Killque wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Take a scout with 500 Mit and 10% avoidance and put him up against an even con mob. See how long it takes him to die just standing there.</p><p>Do the same exact thing with the same exact stats level etc with a guardian and you will then see the difference.</p><p>The numbers mean only so much, un shown class/race things are at work here.</p></blockquote><p> <i>Please read a post completely before posting a reply. this is about tank's issues in pvp not pve. </i></p></blockquote><p>It doesnt matter! It was a meer example.</p><p>Just because a scout has the same Mitigation and avoidance as a Guardian doesnt mean a<b>n</b> attack is going to do the same amount of damage. The system knows you are a Guardian, and treats these things as such.</p><p>Edit in <b>Bold</b> </p>

ZhouYu
03-14-2007, 06:52 PM
<cite>Killque wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ZhouYu wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Killque wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Take a scout with 500 Mit and 10% avoidance and put him up against an even con mob. See how long it takes him to die just standing there.</p><p>Do the same exact thing with the same exact stats level etc with a guardian and you will then see the difference.</p><p>The numbers mean only so much, un shown class/race things are at work here.</p></blockquote><p> <i>Please read a post completely before posting a reply. this is about tank's issues in pvp not pve. </i></p></blockquote><p>It doesnt matter! It was a meer example.</p><p>Just because a scout has the same Mitigation and avoidance as a Guardian doesnt mean a<b>n</b> attack is going to do the same amount of damage. The system knows you are a Guardian, and treats these things as such.</p><p>Edit in <b>Bold</b> </p></blockquote><i>I don't know what you are taoking about here, but such thing doesn't exist in pvp damage. What you are trying to defened is a null point, there is no way in any pvp game a tank classes that is suppose to sacrifice offence for defence have same mig as a scout class. This is due to horrible game designe and itemization. There is a simpel so9lution to this problem, but I will make a seperate thread, because the solution i have will not only solve tank's problem in pvp, but every other non-scout class as well. </i>

Wytie
03-14-2007, 06:57 PM
<cite>Killque wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ZhouYu wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Killque wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Take a scout with 500 Mit and 10% avoidance and put him up against an even con mob. See how long it takes him to die just standing there.</p><p>Do the same exact thing with the same exact stats level etc with a guardian and you will then see the difference.</p><p>The numbers mean only so much, un shown class/race things are at work here.</p></blockquote><p> <i>Please read a post completely before posting a reply. this is about tank's issues in pvp not pve. </i></p></blockquote><p>It doesnt matter! It was a meer example.</p><p>Just because a scout has the same Mitigation and avoidance as a Guardian doesnt mean a<b>n</b> attack is going to do the same amount of damage. The system knows you are a Guardian, and treats these things as such.</p><p>Edit in <b>Bold</b> </p></blockquote><p>hmmm im courious just how does the system treat it differently? Mitigation is mitigation, are you saying theres another factor that plays apart in damage reduction, im courious as to what this is and how you know and the rest of us dont.</p><p>the only difference i would see would be hit points orther than that, damage reduction should be the same, if mitigation is the same, if not then this game is BS for having damage modifiers that arent listed and not shown...</p><p>Please explain</p>

Spider
03-14-2007, 08:32 PM
<p>ok to cite a simple example the other day i ( 57 inquis) was grouped with a 66 zerker </p><p>now i accualy had a few hundred more mit tha the zerker BUT whenn we got hit with an aoe i took 3 times the damage he did ( and his damage wanst avoided i checked)  so there are other factors such as levels amd other behind the scenes things  at play here that i would truely like to know more about </p>

Zaviur
03-14-2007, 09:44 PM
If you're gonna compare tanks and scouts I'd compare them with brawlers if anything.  In PVP brawlers can do scout like dps and are almost impossible to hit.  But to be honest comparing tanks and scouts is like comparing mages and druids doesn't really compare if you know what I mean...

ZhouYu
03-14-2007, 10:00 PM
<cite>Zaviur wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you're gonna compare tanks and scouts I'd compare them with brawlers if anything.  In PVP brawlers can do scout like dps and are almost impossible to hit.  But to be honest comparing tanks and scouts is like comparing mages and druids doesn't really compare if you know what I mean...</blockquote> <i>once again please read post completely before replying. Problem isn't why scouts beat tanks (and every other class) the problem is why scouts have same mig if not more than tank classes while they do 5x the dps. I honestly don't how anyone could even defened the reasoning behind this. </i>

Splintered
03-14-2007, 10:30 PM
i would agree with you, and also something else I believe worthy of mentioning is monks and bruisers, which while they can take a beating, there are literally so many skills that decrease defense parry, agi  and deflection. I believe there are only 3 classes in the game who can decrease phy mit (I know monks and bruiser can too with right aa's). Every single scout, most priest and most tanks have some type of skill that decreases monks and bruiser primary defense.

Mildavyn
03-15-2007, 01:16 AM
<p>Brigand - Dispatch (single target Mit debuff vs everything)</p><p>Inquisitor - Shame line. (mit debuff vs everything)</p><p>Dirge - Clara's Cacophony line (AE mit debuff vs everything)</p><p>Assasin - Torture line (defense debuff + physical mit debuff)</p><p>Those are just the ones off the top of my head. You people seem to be missing the point of tanks though. They are there to KEEP AGRO while everyone else kills things. Generally you'll have a healer as well. Tanks taunt alot better than any other class (yes brigs/swash DO get an AE taunt, but only one, and not as many single target) also tanks get alot more defensive skills/CAs than any scout does.</p><p>Tower of Stone, Intercept, Stone Sphere, Defensive stance... thats just the guardian, and i'm sure i missed some. In short the tanks job is to keep everyone else alive by keeping people hitting him. Taunts get them on him and keep them there, those defensive skills i mentioned keep tanks alive a whole lot longer than any scout would survive.</p><p>In short... IFL2P</p>

FinalOrder
03-15-2007, 01:21 AM
<p>To a point, mitigation is mitigation. But, the person who said that the zerker got hit with low aoe damage, while he got hit with alot. The zerker may have other buffs on that you dont. He is the tank, so perhaps someone buffed up his mitigation vs a certain type of damage (Slashing) Also, it could have been non melee aoe. So resists then factor. </p><p> To the person comparing 50 some inqiusitor and 60 some berserker. Levels play a huge role. When you examine his mitigation, and it shows 50% mit .. it shows 50% mit agaisnt a mob HIS level, not yours. Your mit will show agaisnt a mob YOUR level, not his. So agaisnt a mob that u are fighting.. he of course is going to absorb more damage, because he has a higher level then you and thus, his mitigation will increase due to his level, but it will not show the number of mitigiatoin he has vs the mob under inspect since the mob is not his level. </p><p>On the other hand.. if the mob IS his level.. your absorb will be less than what it says because you are lower in level compared the the mob. Is that confusing? Sure sounds like it, but i dont know how to explain it any other way except, level vs monster is a factor that is unseen.</p><p> But, in a true test.. of both equel levels with equel stats.. a plate tank is at a disadvantage. Their mitigation can be obtained by brawlers and scouts, mabye a few less, but the plate tanks wont have the avoidance they do. Nor would they have the DPS the scout and well played brawlers are capable of doing either (im saying plate tanks in offensive mode, as well as scouts / brawlers. If a scout / brawler is in defensive, they might be out DPS'ed by a plate tank) Now.. on occasion, a plate tank can out DPS scouts / brawlers, but thats on occasion, and doesnt happen enough to be a viable option. Just some info I thought Id share.</p><p> Rottk</p><p>Nagafen</p>

ZhouYu
03-15-2007, 01:22 AM
<cite>Mildavyn wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Brigand - Dispatch (single target Mit debuff vs everything)</p><p>Inquisitor - Shame line. (mit debuff vs everything)</p><p>Dirge - Clara's Cacophony line (AE mit debuff vs everything)</p><p>Assasin - Torture line (defense debuff + physical mit debuff)</p><p>Those are just the ones off the top of my head. You people seem to be missing the point of tanks though. They are there to KEEP AGRO while everyone else kills things. Generally you'll have a healer as well. Tanks taunt alot better than any other class (yes brigs/swash DO get an AE taunt, but only one, and not as many single target) also tanks get alot more defensive skills/CAs than any scout does.</p><p>Tower of Stone, Intercept, Stone Sphere, Defensive stance... thats just the guardian, and i'm sure i missed some. In short the tanks job is to keep everyone else alive by keeping people hitting him. Taunts get them on him and keep them there, those defensive skills i mentioned keep tanks alive a whole lot longer than any scout would survive.</p><p>In short... IFL2P</p></blockquote><p>I swearpeople justdon't read before they post.  Haven't isaid over 4 times already here that we are talking about PVP not PvE. You can't hold aggro in pvp ...please read a thread completely before you reply. </p><p>PSMeiling thatmob must have hit you withaspell ..the difference indamage wasfromresists not mig. </p>

Mildavyn
03-15-2007, 01:29 AM
<cite>ZhouYu wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I swearpeople justdon't read before they post.  Haven't isaid over 4 times already here that we are talking about PVP not PvE. You can't hold aggro in pvp ...please read a thread completely before you reply. </p><p>PSMeiling thatmob must have hit you withaspell ..the difference indamage wasfromresists not mig. </p></blockquote><p>I would ask you to read my post again, just because i don't agree with yo u does not mean that i cant read. I WAS talking about PvP, and you CAN hold agro in PvP. Guardians get so many taunts its just not funny, also they get a very high % chance to taunt every time they get hit. If your tanks aren't holding agro in PvP then they obviously aren't good tanks. The entire point of HAVING a tank in PvP is to keep agro. It's what they do!</p><p>Learn about what you're talking about BEFORE you start talking about it. </p>

ZhouYu
03-15-2007, 01:58 AM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><cite>ZhouYu wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I swearpeople justdon't read before they post.  Haven't isaid over 4 times already here t ...please read a thread completely before you reply. </p><p>PSMeiling thatmob must have hit you withaspell ..the difference indamage wasfromresists not mig. </p></blockquote><p>I would ask you to read my post again, just because i don't agree with yo u does not mean that i cant read. I WAS talking about PvP, and you CAN hold agro in PvP. Guardians get so many taunts its just not funny, also they get a very high % chance to taunt every time they get hit. If your tanks aren't holding agro in PvP then they obviously aren't good tanks. The entire point of HAVING a tank in PvP is to keep agro. It's what they do!</p><p>Learn about what you're talking about BEFORE you start talking about it. </p></blockquote><i>exactly my point, a tank is suppose to tank. Now open your midna little andtry understand this simple aspect, AOEtaunting in pvp is suicide. Why ? because tanks have same mig as a scout and less avoidance ...meaning if we taunt we are dead, we don;t have the highest defence in the game to taunt ....if anything asit is right now scouts shouldbe the ones taunting and not plate tanks (specially with the pvp belt they getthat makes them 100% immune to frontalmelee attacks). Having taunts is pointless if you don't have the defence to absorb the samage. question here is whyshould a scout with 5times more dps than a tank have more defence than plate tanks ? </i>

Mildavyn
03-15-2007, 09:56 AM
Get a healer and learn to taunt. Oh, and dont bother with furys, most of them want to nuke, not heal.

Khrunk
03-15-2007, 11:43 AM
<cite>Spider wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>ok to cite a simple example the other day i ( 57 inquis) was grouped with a 66 zerker </p><p>now i accualy had a few hundred more mit tha the zerker BUT whenn we got hit with an aoe i took 3 times the damage he did ( and his damage wanst avoided i checked)  so there are other factors such as levels amd other behind the scenes things  at play here that i would truely like to know more about </p></blockquote><p> of course your going to take more damage. your mit is based on versus amob of your level hence 57. his is based versus a mob of level 66. you will always take more damage than a higher level character.</p><p>ohh and to op yes diminishing curve is too steep. plate is lackluster anymore they need to remove the avoidance check based on your heaviest armor that you can wear. before they did it hitting a tank was like...well hitting a tank, now they only difference you can tell is between a squishy and scouts/tanks.</p>

Kaleyen
03-15-2007, 11:53 AM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><p>before they did it hitting a tank was like...well hitting a tank, now they only difference you can tell is between a squishy and scouts/tanks.</p></blockquote>Exactly, and that is the problem.

Addex
03-15-2007, 12:23 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>Get a healer and learn to taunt. Oh, and dont bother with furys, most of them want to nuke, not heal.</blockquote><p> I'm guessing u dont know the "huge" amount of taunts SKs have. Having ur disease base taunts getting resisted non stop due to every1 and his mom having huge disease resists thanks to the wonderful itemization in the EOF collections rewards is pretty cool. </p><p>Anyway yeah after the changes it blows to be a tank in pvp, it feels really great to be in Fable and take the same hits as if u were in treasured.</p>

Mildavyn
03-15-2007, 12:37 PM
<p>I've only played a SK to 28 in PvP, so i guess i haven't ran into the taunt resists that you will get in T7 (yes i know you WILL get them, dont talk to me about resists screwing ppl over in t7, Auditor of Silence procs 9800 mental resists... you'll never guess what the major (im talking 90%) part of my damage is...)</p><p>Fair enough if the SKs are getting resisted, then they need to put the 'taunt' part of those spells on a different resist check, because i know for a fact that zerkers dont get resisted very often, if ever with their taunts. I guess i was comparing a zerker tanking to a SK tanking (if the taunts landed more often a SK should have absolutely no problem holding agro)</p>

Kaleyen
03-15-2007, 12:49 PM
I'm not sure what warrior taunts are based off of, for Pally our taunts are divine and SK's are disease.

Killque
03-15-2007, 12:56 PM
<p>I have a 14 Guardian in PvP and I tank just fine. </p><p>I can make a video of what im talking about. A 14 fury and I have no problems taking on a full group of yellows...</p><p> I am not sure where your complaints are coming from?</p>

Khrunk
03-15-2007, 01:04 PM
<p>warriors taunts are based on the aggresion skill. </p><p>what the complaint is about is that fact that plate tanks mit sucks. once you unlock your toon and get to tier 7 you will see that duoing with a fury will not happen when groups are steamrolling you. a scout can get to 55% mit and plate wearers are lucky to see 60% mit. meaning that plate is pretty much useless. scouts do significantly more damage than a tank, which they should. but the imbalance of how much damage they do to the amount that a tank does and how much mit that got is wrong.</p>

Bozidar
03-15-2007, 01:42 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>Get a healer and learn to taunt. Oh, and dont bother with furys, most of them want to nuke, not heal.</blockquote> LOL, that made me laugh.. furies are funny <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Bozidar
03-15-2007, 01:47 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><p>I've only played a SK to 28 in PvP, so i guess i haven't ran into the taunt resists that you will get in T7 (yes i know you WILL get them, dont talk to me about resists screwing ppl over in t7, Auditor of Silence procs 9800 mental resists... you'll never guess what the major (im talking 90%) part of my damage is...)</p><p>Fair enough if the SKs are getting resisted, then they need to put the 'taunt' part of those spells on a different resist check, because i know for a fact that zerkers dont get resisted very often, if ever with their taunts. I guess i was comparing a zerker tanking to a SK tanking (if the taunts landed more often a SK should have absolutely no problem holding agro)</p></blockquote><p> Brawlers and Crusaders don't get the constant taunt procs that the warriors do, from what i've seen.  Maybe they get something better in spells or gear as they go up.. but warriors own pvp taunting.  I like your idea to fix the taunt aspect of an sks and pally's (and probably brawlers which are likely heat/cold based?) portion of the taunt.  That's a great idea.</p><p>They have an aggression skill for a reason.. </p><p>But Guardians and Zerkers will still own taunting because they have more tools for it.</p><p>Man.. with the resists the way they are in T7, it must really suck to be a SK or Warlock.  And now as an SK your mit sucks too.. lol.. fun times ahead!</p>

Kaleyen
03-15-2007, 01:48 PM
<cite>Killque wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I have a 14 Guardian in PvP and I tank just fine. </p><p>I can make a video of what im talking about. A 14 fury and I have no problems taking on a full group of yellows...</p><p> I am not sure where your complaints are coming from?</p></blockquote>Taking a wild shot in the dark here from reading this thread and all, but the complaints are coming from tanks that are higher then level 14.

Bozidar
03-15-2007, 01:49 PM
<cite>Killque wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I have a 14 Guardian in PvP and I tank just fine. </p><p>I can make a video of what im talking about. A 14 fury and I have no problems taking on a full group of yellows...</p><p> I am not sure where your complaints are coming from?</p></blockquote><p> Rofled - This is basically a T7 discussion.  I'm trying to read it and figure out what's ahead, and for the most part i find my self getting sick to my stomach because i'm agreeing with Z and he's made a compelling argument.</p><p>Lower tier stuff really doesn't compare.  The most i can add to the conversation is that i've seen the buffs of a 44 zerker, and the taunts worked into that class, and i've seen guardians in action when it comes to taunting at higher levels.  And warriors are very impressive at keeping aggro.</p><p>I've pvped with brawlers in T6 too, and they just aren't as good at it.</p>

Khrunk
03-15-2007, 02:04 PM
<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Killque wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I have a 14 Guardian in PvP and I tank just fine. </p><p>I can make a video of what im talking about. A 14 fury and I have no problems taking on a full group of yellows...</p><p> I am not sure where your complaints are coming from?</p></blockquote><p> Rofled - This is basically a T7 discussion.  I'm trying to read it and figure out what's ahead, and for the most part i find my self getting sick to my stomach because i'm agreeing with Z and he's made a compelling argument.</p><p>Lower tier stuff really doesn't compare.  The most i can add to the conversation is that i've seen the buffs of a 44 zerker, and the taunts worked into that class, and i've seen guardians in action when it comes to taunting at higher levels.  And warriors are very impressive at keeping aggro.</p><p>I've pvped with brawlers in T6 too, and they just aren't as good at it.</p></blockquote><p><span style="font-size: medium">the problem with brawlers is that this game is based on pve</span> so for bruisers to tank in pve that got hella damage to control mobs due to the fact that 1 point of damage is equal to 1 point of taunting in pve. this does not work in pvp no matter how hard you hit the pc (player controlled) it will not stay on the brawler. thats why warriors are better at taunting and holding aggro in pvp, escpecially guards (main is a 70 guard and i like to taunt). when a guard gets hit that got a 50% chance to retaunt which holds the attacker on them for another 3 secs. which is why you group taunt alot as a guard and spam taunts. but the problem is diminishing curves on mit never was thought of for pvp conquences. thats the whole problem with pvp is that this game is based on pve. </p>

ZhouYu
03-15-2007, 11:24 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Killque wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I have a 14 Guardian in PvP and I tank just fine. </p><p>I can make a video of what im talking about. A 14 fury and I have no problems taking on a full group of yellows...</p><p> I am not sure where your complaints are coming from?</p></blockquote><p> Rofled - This is basically a T7 discussion.  I'm trying to read it and figure out what's ahead, and for the most part i find my self getting sick to my stomach because i'm agreeing with Z and he's made a compelling argument.</p><p>Lower tier stuff really doesn't compare.  The most i can add to the conversation is that i've seen the buffs of a 44 zerker, and the taunts worked into that class, and i've seen guardians in action when it comes to taunting at higher levels.  And warriors are very impressive at keeping aggro.</p><p>I've pvped with brawlers in T6 too, and they just aren't as good at it.</p></blockquote><p><span style="font-size: medium">the problem with brawlers is that this game is based on pve</span> so for bruisers to tank in pve that got hella damage to control mobs due to the fact that 1 point of damage is equal to 1 point of taunting in pve. this does not work in pvp no matter how hard you hit the pc (player controlled) it will not stay on the brawler. thats why warriors are better at taunting and holding aggro in pvp, escpecially guards (main is a 70 guard and i like to taunt). when a guard gets hit that got a 50% chance to retaunt which holds the attacker on them for another 3 secs. which is why you group taunt alot as a guard and spam taunts. but the problem is diminishing curves on mit never was thought of for pvp conquences. thats the whole problem with pvp is that this game is based on pve. </p></blockquote><i>I totally agree with you. I just think the tnask classes (all of them) need to be looked at and readjusted to better suit pvp. (maybe change a lot of the pvp effct on spells so they dont ruin pve while they try to fix pvp ?) whatever they want to do, i dont care all i know is that right now tanks in pvp need some serious help from the DEVs.</i>

Firam
03-16-2007, 02:48 AM
This entire argument is moot.  The plate tank role in PvP is not to "soak damage," it's to lock down the other group.  Which they do much better than brawlers or rogues.  <i>Exponentially</i> better.   I'm a brigand, I have pretty decent but by no means excellent (no raid gear) equipment, I am AA specced defensive, and I can PVE tank very well, just slightly worse than plate.  Maybe on par in many situations.  However, you think I have a snowball's chance in hell of locking down a full group, let alone ONE person onto me for any length of time in a PvP battle?   The first 15-20 seconds of a group vs group fight are key, you have to stabilize your own situation and take out the critical classes in the other group.  It's a nightmare trying to get a healer dead when they're in with a good group with a skilled plate tank.  Put me in place of that zerker or guardian and the other group is going to laugh as they tear through our healers.  None of my three taunts (regular CA single target, AA encounter taunt, AA reactive/passive taunt) really mean a [Removed for Content] in PvP, with the exception of the dispel on the CA taunt.  Put a well geared plate tank in front of a group and that group doesn't have much to worry about, except for the healers doing their job.   Even bot groups, with broker-bought gear, are a pain in the [Removed for Content] if you're a solo scout.  It's a challenge to touch the healer or mages in a bot group anymore; the tanks realized they were good at doing something other than being a meatshield to keep their DPS alive, and recently have been some crazy-taunting mofos.  I've seen full groups of players, in pretty decent gear, get torn up by bot groups because they didn't have the right class makeup.  The main tank just keep everything locked on him and the mages, targeting through that tank, rip people down.   I group PvP without a plate tank because they're so scarce on this kind of server (moreso if you aren't a raid guild).  I don't do it because I think they suck at their role.  Believe me, I'd rather have a MC/legendary zerker around over another fully fabled DPSer anyday.

Oneira
03-16-2007, 04:19 AM
<cite>Firamas wrote:</cite><blockquote>This entire argument is moot.  The plate tank role in PvP is not to "soak damage," it's to lock down the other group.  Which they do much better than brawlers or rogues.  <i>Exponentially</i> better.   I'm a brigand, I have pretty decent but by no means excellent (no raid gear) equipment, I am AA specced defensive, and I can PVE tank very well, just slightly worse than plate.  Maybe on par in many situations.  However, you think I have a snowball's chance in hell of locking down a full group, let alone ONE person onto me for any length of time in a PvP battle?   The first 15-20 seconds of a group vs group fight are key, you have to stabilize your own situation and take out the critical classes in the other group.  It's a nightmare trying to get a healer dead when they're in with a good group with a skilled plate tank.  Put me in place of that zerker or guardian and the other group is going to laugh as they tear through our healers.  None of my three taunts (regular CA single target, AA encounter taunt, AA reactive/passive taunt) really mean a [I cannot control my vocabulary] in PvP, with the exception of the dispel on the CA taunt.  Put a well geared plate tank in front of a group and that group doesn't have much to worry about, except for the healers doing their job.   Even bot groups, with broker-bought gear, are a pain in the [I cannot control my vocabulary] if you're a solo scout.  It's a challenge to touch the healer or mages in a bot group anymore; the tanks realized they were good at doing something other than being a meatshield to keep their DPS alive, and recently have been some crazy-taunting mofos.  I've seen full groups of players, in pretty decent gear, get torn up by bot groups because they didn't have the right class makeup.  The main tank just keep everything locked on him and the mages, targeting through that tank, rip people down.   I group PvP without a plate tank because they're so scarce on this kind of server (moreso if you aren't a raid guild).  I don't do it because I think they suck at their role.  Believe me, I'd rather have a MC/legendary zerker around over another fully fabled DPSer anyday. </blockquote>You can't have one without the other.  A tank's ability to "lock down" another group with hate control is directly tied to their ability to soak up damage.  If you can't soak up the damage, see what happens to you when you group taunt.  The issue here is that the diminishing curve has effectively screwed over the class that needs mitigation the most, plate tanks.  When scouts in chain can get within 5% of a plate tank's mitigated damage, there is something wrong.  And it shows...a plate tank probably should not be able to kill anyone fast, but by the same token they should be hard to take down.  That is not the case.  A predator or rogue can take my guardian down in no time.  That is just not right.

Norrsken
03-16-2007, 05:05 AM
<cite>Firamas wrote:</cite><blockquote>This entire argument is moot.  The plate tank role in PvP is not to "soak damage," it's to lock down the other group.  Which they do much better than brawlers or rogues.  <i>Exponentially</i> better.   I'm a brigand, I have pretty decent but by no means excellent (no raid gear) equipment, I am AA specced defensive, and I can PVE tank very well, just slightly worse than plate.  Maybe on par in many situations.  However, you think I have a snowball's chance in hell of locking down a full group, let alone ONE person onto me for any length of time in a PvP battle?   The first 15-20 seconds of a group vs group fight are key, you have to stabilize your own situation and take out the critical classes in the other group.  It's a nightmare trying to get a healer dead when they're in with a good group with a skilled plate tank.  Put me in place of that zerker or guardian and the other group is going to laugh as they tear through our healers.  None of my three taunts (regular CA single target, AA encounter taunt, AA reactive/passive taunt) really mean a [I cannot control my vocabulary] in PvP, with the exception of the dispel on the CA taunt.  Put a well geared plate tank in front of a group and that group doesn't have much to worry about, except for the healers doing their job.   Even bot groups, with broker-bought gear, are a pain in the [I cannot control my vocabulary] if you're a solo scout.  It's a challenge to touch the healer or mages in a bot group anymore; the tanks realized they were good at doing something other than being a meatshield to keep their DPS alive, and recently have been some crazy-taunting mofos.  I've seen full groups of players, in pretty decent gear, get torn up by bot groups because they didn't have the right class makeup.  The main tank just keep everything locked on him and the mages, targeting through that tank, rip people down.   I group PvP without a plate tank because they're so scarce on this kind of server (moreso if you aren't a raid guild).  I don't do it because I think they suck at their role.  Believe me, I'd rather have a MC/legendary zerker around over another fully fabled DPSer anyday. </blockquote>you might wanna consider the sk. They have as many taunts as you do, so they are basically [Removed for Content] for pvp tanking. They should have their proc taunt PUT BACK FOR PVP! [Removed for Content] is up with giving the plate tank with the least taunts one LESS taunt for pvp? Stupid.

Khrunk
03-16-2007, 11:54 AM
<cite>Firamas wrote:</cite><blockquote>This entire argument is moot.  The plate tank role in PvP is not to "soak damage," it's to lock down the other group.  Which they do much better than brawlers or rogues.  <i>Exponentially</i> better.   I'm a brigand, I have pretty decent but by no means excellent (no raid gear) equipment, I am AA specced defensive, and I can PVE tank very well, just slightly worse than plate.  Maybe on par in many situations.  However, you think I have a snowball's chance in hell of locking down a full group, let alone ONE person onto me for any length of time in a PvP battle?   The first 15-20 seconds of a group vs group fight are key, you have to stabilize your own situation and take out the critical classes in the other group.  It's a nightmare trying to get a healer dead when they're in with a good group with a skilled plate tank.  Put me in place of that zerker or guardian and the other group is going to laugh as they tear through our healers.  None of my three taunts (regular CA single target, AA encounter taunt, AA reactive/passive taunt) really mean a [I cannot control my vocabulary] in PvP, with the exception of the dispel on the CA taunt.  Put a well geared plate tank in front of a group and that group doesn't have much to worry about, except for the healers doing their job.   Even bot groups, with broker-bought gear, are a pain in the [I cannot control my vocabulary] if you're a solo scout.  It's a challenge to touch the healer or mages in a bot group anymore; the tanks realized they were good at doing something other than being a meatshield to keep their DPS alive, and recently have been some crazy-taunting mofos.  I've seen full groups of players, in pretty decent gear, get torn up by bot groups because they didn't have the right class makeup.  The main tank just keep everything locked on him and the mages, targeting through that tank, rip people down.   I group PvP without a plate tank because they're so scarce on this kind of server (moreso if you aren't a raid guild).  I don't do it because I think they suck at their role.  Believe me, I'd rather have a MC/legendary zerker around over another fully fabled DPSer anyday. </blockquote><p>yes the tank role in pvp is to soak the damage that they recieve while holding down another group otherwise we wouldnt need plate armor. the problem is when they did diminishing curve they modified the damage that pve encounters did, however they did not modify the damage that pvp encounter do. therby screwing what little plate tanks had that was our big thing. it help everyone else by raising their mitigation. this is a problem that is needing addressed. </p><p>since i see you have a 70 bruiser in a pve server i dont think i need to explain why bruisers are at an unfair advantage as to why they cant lock pvp down as good as they can in pve. and rogues arent meant to be pvp tanks they are scouts and are suppose to lay down the damage on unsuspecting enemies. </p>

Mordumor
03-16-2007, 11:55 AM
<p><b><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Times New Roman">My guard on nagafen (one of the best geared on the server-t7 fabeled, claymore finished, all EoF jewelry), if solo:</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Times New Roman">Will kill another guardian, has a chance against a beserker, has a smaller chance against a avoidance tanks and no chance against healing tanks</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Times New Roman">Has a miniscule chance against a poorly equiped Brig/Swashy, and I am 100% snared/kited by assassins, rangers since this immunity to roots/snares doesnt really exist.  Havn't 1 vs. 1 any bards, but I assume that they will kite me also.  </span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Times New Roman">Mages, if no pets involved, I have a chance maybe since summoning classes can keep me snared also, and I don't have the burst DPS for when I do catch up- Raincaller helps some here (completely avaoided by the snaring scouts though) , A better chance against the bigger nukers, since I have stoneskin buffs.</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Times New Roman">Any healer class, absolutely no chance on Norath.  </span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Times New Roman">The over all message is little to no chance, 1v1, with other guardians being the sole exception.</span></b></p><p><b></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Times New Roman">Grouped PvP is a lot of fun, and I can take damage from a huge numbers of people.  Except that most good PvP group have some stun that is uncurable (I would really like to know what this is) seems to open up every serious fight.  Its luck of the draw with how much DPS is in the hostile group and if I survive.</span></b></p>

ZhouYu
03-16-2007, 04:06 PM
<cite>Firamas wrote:</cite><blockquote>This entire argument is moot.  The plate tank role in PvP is not to "soak damage," it's to lock down the other group.  Which they do much better than brawlers or rogues.  <i>Exponentially</i> better.   I'm a brigand, I have pretty decent but by no means excellent (no raid gear) equipment, I am AA specced defensive, and I can PVE tank very well, just slightly worse than plate.  Maybe on par in many situations.  However, you think I have a snowball's chance in hell of locking down a full group, let alone ONE person onto me for any length of time in a PvP battle?   The first 15-20 seconds of a group vs group fight are key, you have to stabilize your own situation and take out the critical classes in the other group.  It's a nightmare trying to get a healer dead when they're in with a good group with a skilled plate tank.  Put me in place of that zerker or guardian and the other group is going to laugh as they tear through our healers.  None of my three taunts (regular CA single target, AA encounter taunt, AA reactive/passive taunt) really mean a [I cannot control my vocabulary] in PvP, with the exception of the dispel on the CA taunt.  Put a well geared plate tank in front of a group and that group doesn't have much to worry about, except for the healers doing their job.   Even bot groups, with broker-bought gear, are a pain in the [I cannot control my vocabulary] if you're a solo scout.  It's a challenge to touch the healer or mages in a bot group anymore; the tanks realized they were good at doing something other than being a meatshield to keep their DPS alive, and recently have been some crazy-taunting mofos.  I've seen full groups of players, in pretty decent gear, get torn up by bot groups because they didn't have the right class makeup.  The main tank just keep everything locked on him and the mages, targeting through that tank, rip people down.   I group PvP without a plate tank because they're so scarce on this kind of server (moreso if you aren't a raid guild).  I don't do it because I think they suck at their role.  Believe me, I'd rather have a MC/legendary zerker around over another fully fabled DPSer anyday. </blockquote><i>Hmmm wanna know what happens when i hit my aoe tauntto lock down the enemy group ? i die in 2 seconds. A brigand solocan take me out in 5-10seconds ...aoe taunt 4 of them on myself ? you [Removed for Content] stupid ? </i>

Firam
03-17-2007, 04:26 AM
<cite>ZhouYu wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Firamas wrote:</cite><blockquote>This entire argument is moot.  The plate tank role in PvP is not to "soak damage," it's to lock down the other group.  Which they do much better than brawlers or rogues.  <i>Exponentially</i> better.   I'm a brigand, I have pretty decent but by no means excellent (no raid gear) equipment, I am AA specced defensive, and I can PVE tank very well, just slightly worse than plate.  Maybe on par in many situations.  However, you think I have a snowball's chance in hell of locking down a full group, let alone ONE person onto me for any length of time in a PvP battle?   The first 15-20 seconds of a group vs group fight are key, you have to stabilize your own situation and take out the critical classes in the other group.  It's a nightmare trying to get a healer dead when they're in with a good group with a skilled plate tank.  Put me in place of that zerker or guardian and the other group is going to laugh as they tear through our healers.  None of my three taunts (regular CA single target, AA encounter taunt, AA reactive/passive taunt) really mean a [I cannot control my vocabulary] in PvP, with the exception of the dispel on the CA taunt.  Put a well geared plate tank in front of a group and that group doesn't have much to worry about, except for the healers doing their job.   Even bot groups, with broker-bought gear, are a pain in the [I cannot control my vocabulary] if you're a solo scout.  It's a challenge to touch the healer or mages in a bot group anymore; the tanks realized they were good at doing something other than being a meatshield to keep their DPS alive, and recently have been some crazy-taunting mofos.  I've seen full groups of players, in pretty decent gear, get torn up by bot groups because they didn't have the right class makeup.  The main tank just keep everything locked on him and the mages, targeting through that tank, rip people down.   I group PvP without a plate tank because they're so scarce on this kind of server (moreso if you aren't a raid guild).  I don't do it because I think they suck at their role.  Believe me, I'd rather have a MC/legendary zerker around over another fully fabled DPSer anyday. </blockquote><i>Hmmm wanna know what happens when i hit my aoe tauntto lock down the enemy group ? i die in 2 seconds. A brigand solocan take me out in 5-10seconds ...aoe taunt 4 of them on myself ? you [I cannot control my vocabulary] stupid ? </i> </blockquote>(Discounting the fact that not many, if ANY, good pvp groups contain 4 brigands... but for the sake of argument...)   Would you rather those 4 brigands are tearing up your weaker groupmates in 3-5 seconds instead?  So you can stand there like a doofus at 95% health while your entire group is on their faces, and 6 angry enemies are converging on the Tank Who Didn't Taunt? Simple fact:  no other class besides plate tanks can effectively lock groups down in PvP.  Warriors do it best, by far, crusaders have some ability, and everyone else with a taunt has a taunt that frankly sucks in PvP. Know your role.  Play into that.  Win.

CresentBlade
03-17-2007, 04:55 AM
<cite>Firamas wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ZhouYu wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Firamas wrote:</cite><blockquote>This entire argument is moot.  The plate tank role in PvP is not to "soak damage," it's to lock down the other group.  Which they do much better than brawlers or rogues.  <i>Exponentially</i> better.   I'm a brigand, I have pretty decent but by no means excellent (no raid gear) equipment, I am AA specced defensive, and I can PVE tank very well, just slightly worse than plate.  Maybe on par in many situations.  However, you think I have a snowball's chance in hell of locking down a full group, let alone ONE person onto me for any length of time in a PvP battle?   The first 15-20 seconds of a group vs group fight are key, you have to stabilize your own situation and take out the critical classes in the other group.  It's a nightmare trying to get a healer dead when they're in with a good group with a skilled plate tank.  Put me in place of that zerker or guardian and the other group is going to laugh as they tear through our healers.  None of my three taunts (regular CA single target, AA encounter taunt, AA reactive/passive taunt) really mean a [I cannot control my vocabulary] in PvP, with the exception of the dispel on the CA taunt.  Put a well geared plate tank in front of a group and that group doesn't have much to worry about, except for the healers doing their job.   Even bot groups, with broker-bought gear, are a pain in the [I cannot control my vocabulary] if you're a solo scout.  It's a challenge to touch the healer or mages in a bot group anymore; the tanks realized they were good at doing something other than being a meatshield to keep their DPS alive, and recently have been some crazy-taunting mofos.  I've seen full groups of players, in pretty decent gear, get torn up by bot groups because they didn't have the right class makeup.  The main tank just keep everything locked on him and the mages, targeting through that tank, rip people down.   I group PvP without a plate tank because they're so scarce on this kind of server (moreso if you aren't a raid guild).  I don't do it because I think they suck at their role.  Believe me, I'd rather have a MC/legendary zerker around over another fully fabled DPSer anyday. </blockquote><i>Hmmm wanna know what happens when i hit my aoe tauntto lock down the enemy group ? i die in 2 seconds. A brigand solocan take me out in 5-10seconds ...aoe taunt 4 of them on myself ? you [I cannot control my vocabulary] stupid ? </i> </blockquote>(Discounting the fact that not many, if ANY, good pvp groups contain 4 brigands... but for the sake of argument...)   Would you rather those 4 brigands are tearing up your weaker groupmates in 3-5 seconds instead?  So you can stand there like a doofus at 95% health while your entire group is on their faces, and 6 angry enemies are converging on the Tank Who Didn't Taunt? Simple fact:  no other class besides plate tanks can effectively lock groups down in PvP.  Warriors do it best, by far, crusaders have some ability, and everyone else with a taunt has a taunt that frankly sucks in PvP. Know your role.  Play into that.  Win. </blockquote><p>Firamas</p><p>Man looking at your sig kinda shows how badass scouts are and how crummy the other classes are. Your poor caster doesnt have a title, how come? hehehe </p>

Vendi
03-17-2007, 04:59 AM
My 36 Ranger has as many HP's as my friend's Paladin. If I could taunt I would be a better tank because my avoidance is better. We are both in great gear, he's all Feysteel Plate and I have the Clay leggings and the RoV scout armor Et'sipe's, or something like that. Monk's used to be the answer if you wanted to tank in PvP, but they have screwed them over, I don't even bother playing my Monk (which was my favorite class). I think right now the best tank in PvP has to be the Swash (on the Qeynos side). If the player puts his AA in the right spot and learns how to use his DPS and pseudo-taunts they can maintain aggro as well as any tank. I think tanks should be tanks, let them withstand and avoid until their low DPS can equal the High DPS and lower mitigation of a scout (at least that's what make sense to me). I think it's really sad that there are hardly any tanks out there. I think the only reason the SK even gets attention is HT. If they did not have that, there would be as many of those as there are Paladins. I also think that taunts need to be changed in PvP. If someone is taunted off the healer it should be impossible for them to target the healer for x number of seconds.

CresentBlade
03-17-2007, 05:03 AM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>My 36 Ranger has as many HP's as my friend's Paladin. If I could taunt I would be a better tank because my avoidance is better. We are both in great gear, he's all Feysteel Plate and I have the Clay leggings and the RoV scout armor Et'sipe's, or something like that. Monk's used to be the answer if you wanted to tank in PvP, but they have screwed them over, I don't even bother playing my Monk (which was my favorite class). I think right now the best tank in PvP has to be the Swash (on the Qeynos side). If the player puts his AA in the right spot and learns how to use his DPS and pseudo-taunts they can maintain aggro as well as any tank. I think tanks should be tanks, let them withstand and avoid until their low DPS can equal the High DPS and lower mitigation of a scout (at least that's what make sense to me). I think it's really sad that there are hardly any tanks out there. I think the only reason the SK even gets attention is HT. If they did not have that, there would be as many of those as there are Paladins. I also think that taunts need to be changed in PvP. If someone is taunted off the healer it should be impossible for them to target the healer for x number of seconds. </blockquote>Ya this sucks! I have had a couple of Swashes totally out tank me, kind of make me question my roll as a class. Ah well at least I can train mobs better then most..for now<img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Radigazt
03-17-2007, 01:06 PM
<p>One of the many aspects of Taunting in PvP that really gets ovelrooked is that Scouts have the very best 1-2 taunt combo.  A Tank taunts ... and he gets massive damage burst onto him.  A scout taunts and immediately follows it up with a very quick casting de-taunt, so he gets a very short damage burst onto him, and then a period where the enemy is disoriented and has to re-acquire it's target.  The Scout's taunts--especially when enhanced by the AA lines-- recycle quick enough to do a pretty decent job of distracting the enemy, particularly the slow casting mages.  But this distracting aspect means that it's not really taking the damage that a tank takes.  Add the interrupts to the Scout's ability to do the quick Taunt-Detaunt combo, and it becomes very difficult to really lay down your group's dps on the Scout or his groupmates.  Call it shiftiness if you like, but it's really just an additional form of mitigation and resistance ... to everything.  By contrast, when the Tank taunts you ... your damage stream continues without problems.  </p><p>IMHO, it should be the Tanks that get interrupts, not the Scouts.  I don't think Taunts really work well, but if the devs are going to try to force this square peg into a round hole, they'll need to continue to be very creative about their work-arounds.  Perhaps Taunts should taunt for 1 second and then automatically de-taunt losing target?  </p><p>Make Scout offensive stances give offensive buffs only, but get rid of the interrupts.  </p><p>I don't like the idea of incessent interrupts or de-taunts because they frustrate PvP'ing, but if anyone should have them it should be Tanks, not Scouts.  Make those classes with hate-procs or taunt-procs (like Shadowknights, Bruisers, etc.) become interrupt procs in PvP.  So, whenever a Tank's hate-gain proc or taunt-proc goes off, it instead interrupts the target encounter.  This would be hell for the slow casting types such as mages, but honestly, the Tanks cannot De-taunt like Scouts can, and the current system of Taunts makes the quick combination of Taunt-then-Detaunt the way to go for PvP.  Or, just make every Tank's Taunt automatically taunt for 1 second and then detaunt.  </p>

Xova
03-17-2007, 02:55 PM
<cite>Firamas wrote:</cite><blockquote>(Discounting the fact that not many, if ANY, good pvp groups contain 4 brigands... but for the sake of argument...)   Would you rather those 4 brigands are tearing up your weaker groupmates in 3-5 seconds instead?  So you can stand there like a doofus at 95% health while your entire group is on their faces, and 6 angry enemies are converging on the Tank Who Didn't Taunt? Simple fact:  no other class besides plate tanks can effectively lock groups down in PvP.  Warriors do it best, by far, crusaders have some ability, and everyone else with a taunt has a taunt that frankly sucks in PvP. Know your role.  Play into that.  Win. </blockquote><p>All due respect Firamas, but the very last line in your post is what I would consider an easy way out of a discussion. Simply dismissing Zhouyu's valid concerns by telling him to "know his role, play into that, win" is not good enough. It might interest you to know that his two main toons are a lvl45 Master Brigand (title earned pre-EoF and without the signature Brig attacks) and a lvl70 Master SK (which he acquired Master at lvl48 and has retained successfully through 22 levels while still actively PvP'ing.) To say he knows how to play his classes to win is a gross understatement.</p><p>His arguement is simply that the diminishing curve has had a detrimental effect on tank's mitigation to the point that a scout in chain has nearly as much mitigation as a tank in plate, in addition to having more avoidance. What he is suggesting is that the formula for the diminishing curve be re-examined to allow for tanks to have the proper mitigation for their armor class in comparison to other armor classes. His argument is not so much about tank abilities in PvP like taunting. It's about their ability to absorb damage based on the mitigiation imbalance. Their ability to taunt and lock down an encounter doesn't mean squat if they can't properly absorb the damage that ensues from it.</p><p>From your sig I can infer that you do not play a plate tank. You play a brig a swash, a ranger, and a coercer on PvP, as well as a bruiser and a defiler in PvE. Since we know that PvP experiences vary greatly from PvE experiences, let's leave the bruiser and defiler out of this. So that leaves you with 3 scouts and a coercer, of which 2 of those scouts are chain-wearers. I'm willing to bet that if you took your two chain wearing scouts and measured them up against plate-wearing tanks of comparable levels and gear, that your mitigation would be within a few percent of theirs, while your avoidance and DPS output is vastly greater. <b>That is a problem.</b></p><p>Simply put, the diminishing curve formula needs to be re-examined to allow for plate-wearing tanks to have the proper mitigation in comparison to the other armor-classes.</p>

Oneira
03-17-2007, 03:56 PM
<cite>Xova wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Firamas wrote:</cite><blockquote>(Discounting the fact that not many, if ANY, good pvp groups contain 4 brigands... but for the sake of argument...)   Would you rather those 4 brigands are tearing up your weaker groupmates in 3-5 seconds instead?  So you can stand there like a doofus at 95% health while your entire group is on their faces, and 6 angry enemies are converging on the Tank Who Didn't Taunt? Simple fact:  no other class besides plate tanks can effectively lock groups down in PvP.  Warriors do it best, by far, crusaders have some ability, and everyone else with a taunt has a taunt that frankly sucks in PvP. Know your role.  Play into that.  Win. </blockquote><p>All due respect Firamas, but the very last line in your post is what I would consider an easy way out of a discussion. Simply dismissing Zhouyu's valid concerns by telling him to "know his role, play into that, win" is not good enough. It might interest you to know that his two main toons are a lvl45 Master Brigand (title earned pre-EoF and without the signature Brig attacks) and a lvl70 Master SK (which he acquired Master at lvl48 and has retained successfully through 22 levels while still actively PvP'ing.) To say he knows how to play his classes to win is a gross understatement.</p><p><span style="color: #ff3300">His arguement is simply that the diminishing curve has had a detrimental effect on tank's mitigation to the point that a scout in chain has nearly as much mitigation as a tank in plate, in addition to having more avoidance. What he is suggesting is that the formula for the diminishing curve be re-examined to allow for tanks to have the proper mitigation for their armor class in comparison to other armor classes.</span> His argument is not so much about tank abilities in PvP like taunting. It's about their ability to absorb damage based on the mitigiation imbalance. Their ability to taunt and lock down an encounter doesn't mean squat if they can't properly absorb the damage that ensues from it.</p><p>From your sig I can infer that you do not play a plate tank. You play a brig a swash, a ranger, and a coercer on PvP, as well as a bruiser and a defiler in PvE. Since we know that PvP experiences vary greatly from PvE experiences, let's leave the bruiser and defiler out of this. So that leaves you with 3 scouts and a coercer, of which 2 of those scouts are chain-wearers. I'm willing to bet that if you took your two chain wearing scouts and measured them up against plate-wearing tanks of comparable levels and gear, that your mitigation would be within a few percent of theirs, while your avoidance and DPS output is vastly greater. <b>That is a problem.</b></p><p>Simply put, the diminishing curve formula needs to be re-examined to allow for plate-wearing tanks to have the proper mitigation in comparison to the other armor-classes.</p></blockquote>Very, very well said.  The diminishing returns curve was a terrible decision for tank classes in this game.  SOE couldn't have screwed us, meaning plate tanks like my guardian, worse.  Time to un-screw it a bit.

Oshef
03-17-2007, 08:20 PM
Post -EoF they really have screwed warriors and shamans. I'm #1 guardian PvP kills worldwide. Wearing mostly EoF raid fabled with some KoS stuff left over. Solo I'm worthless. I accept this, I embrace this. I am made for grouping, so it is what I do. In a duo I'm worthless. I can't do enough damage to kill anyone, and I can't take much damage without a healer. The only time I really feel that I am a true addition to the PvP group is with two healers. If I don't have two healers (two different archetypes) I can be burned just as quickly as any scout. Hell I've seen an illusionist take almost as much damage as me. Before EoF came out, I could tank. It was wonderful. Even before the dispatch nerf, I would call out dispatch, it would be cured.. we would be fine. There was a purpose.. I would LOVE for it to be looked at. But I don't think it's going to happen. The game changes as time goes on, as of now this game is very DPS heavy, specifically caster heavy. I still play - and PvP every day. I still enjoy it, and my groups still normally do fairly well. Sometimes we will run into group make-ups that we just cannot beat... but it happens, ya know? Win some, lose some. I still maintain that most groups would be 100% more effective replacing me with almost any other class. I don't think that there is a real need for tanks anymore in PvP groups.. which is pretty sad. Fortunately for me - the rest of my guild thinks that I'm crazy <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Kaleyen
03-18-2007, 12:40 AM
Don't lie Oshef, we all think you're completely useless.

Mildavyn
03-18-2007, 11:51 AM
<p>I tried taking on a a DoM group with 4 brigs and an assasin (and myself) You had Broncas, Brid, Nagous, a warlock and 2 others (not sure) You guys completely destroyed us. i think we managed to kill the warlock. that is all.</p><p>Taunts > ALL.</p><p>Also for all you ppl complaining about mitigation... have you actually sat down and thought about it?</p><p>Lets say (hypotheticaly) you have a scout and a plate tank. the Scout has 45% mitigation (my own %), the tank has managed to attain 60%. Now you might say, "Wow, a massive 15% gee, thats really worth it." Well actually its NOT 15%. Look at it this way If a mob hits you for 1000 damage, the scout(me) will take 550, and the tank will take 400. now 400/550=0.72   So actually, the fighter has 28% more mitigation than the scout. Bit of a difference eh? Almost double.</p><p>People need to think things through before they jump on the band-wagon and cry nerf! It's not nearly as bad as it looks. Tanks mitigate damage ALOT better than scouts, and they have MUCH better tools to do it. Even with just a 5% difference (50% vs 55%) you actually see a difference of 10%.</p><p>EDIT for clarity: Broncas is a Zerker, Brid is a warden, Nagous is a ranger.</p>

Oshef
03-19-2007, 06:28 AM
I agree that tanks take hits better then scouts.. much better then scouts. We also don't take half as well as did before EoF. Trust me.. i KNOW this. I was there. And of course, when you're trying to target the warlock the taunts will suck. But when you just burn the hell out of the tank.. the taunts don't matter so much.

Mildavyn
03-19-2007, 11:09 AM
<cite>Oshef wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree that tanks take hits better then scouts.. much better then scouts. We also don't take half as well as did before EoF. Trust me.. i KNOW this. I was there. And of course, when you're trying to target the warlock the taunts will suck. But when you just burn the hell out of the tank.. the taunts don't matter so much. </blockquote><p> I know this also, as i was there too. I'm not saying tanks didnt take a hit with the EoF combat changes, they did. I'm just sick of people telling everyone that the sky is falling when they really dont know jack. If a full group tries to kill one person, then that person should almost always die. Having said that ask Broncas about that raid we (almost) 1-grouped in Sinking Sands. Having both a warden and a mystic to keep you up helps tremendously. Hell, the raid was mostly grey (59-61), but there were a couple blues/greens in it. We killed off about 3/4 of that raid before they got us. You find me a scout that can tank 24 players at once, for more than 5 seconds.</p><p>Tanks are fine in PvP. If anything the DPS classes need to be toned down (PvP only) longer fights means there are more chances for one side to make a mistake, and more chance for class/game knowledge to come into play. As it stands now, the scouts walk in, burn you down with insane burst damage, and walk away with your coin/tokens.</p>

Khrunk
03-19-2007, 12:12 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><cite>Oshef wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree that tanks take hits better then scouts.. much better then scouts. We also don't take half as well as did before EoF. Trust me.. i KNOW this. I was there. And of course, when you're trying to target the warlock the taunts will suck. But when you just burn the hell out of the tank.. the taunts don't matter so much. </blockquote><p> I know this also, as i was there too. I'm not saying tanks didnt take a hit with the EoF combat changes, they did. I'm just sick of people telling everyone that the sky is falling when they really dont know jack. If a full group tries to kill one person, then that person should almost always die. Having said that ask Broncas about that raid we (almost) 1-grouped in Sinking Sands. Having both a warden and a mystic to keep you up helps tremendously. Hell, the raid was mostly grey (59-61), but there were a couple blues/greens in it. We killed off about 3/4 of that raid before they got us. You find me a scout that can tank 24 players at once, for more than 5 seconds.</p><p>Tanks are fine in PvP. If anything the DPS classes need to be toned down (PvP only) longer fights means there are more chances for one side to make a mistake, and more chance for class/game knowledge to come into play. As it stands now, the scouts walk in, burn you down with insane burst damage, and walk away with your coin/tokens.</p></blockquote><p>what level is your plate wearer? ohh and if diminishing curves didnt get plateys a nerf consider this pre-eof labs hammerfist 5k-6k damage, post-eof before mob rebalancing hammerfist 12k. now put that on the much smaller scale of pvp combat.</p><p> ps sorry pythos but that was funny [Removed for Content] when that mob dropped you and didnt even stop moving just went through like a waterfall. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> And then demolished the raid.</p>

Wytie
03-19-2007, 12:38 PM
well the thing with pvp is taunts, and you really need two tanks to taunt swap to really enjoy the benifit, to me thats when they really shine otherwise its just an short bump in the road on the way to the healer......

Kaleyen
03-23-2007, 12:03 PM
I highly doubt that there will be any kind of response to this, even though I'd be extremely interested in reading one.

ZhouYu
04-25-2007, 11:55 PM
<p>Back o the top, this is a ungoing problem that has yet to be adressed or even commented on.</p>

ArrA
04-26-2007, 12:09 AM
<p>Great topic. Similar to a post of mine earlier today.</p><p> T7 fully fabled Guardian here. I think I'm in the top 10 worldwide on PvP. Im not pointing this out to say Im a PvP king but to show I have been PvPing for a long while on Nagafen. I agree with some comments here, such as taunts being great for groups in pvp, it's really a role the Guard fits into. The problem is once you do the taunting and you pull 2-3 swashies onto you more often than not healers cant heal the damage without burning every insta they have.</p><p> Mitigation vs physical damage is an issue in PVP now since EOF and needs to be addressed period.</p>

Mildavyn
04-27-2007, 11:06 AM
<p>Mitigation is NOT a problem. mitigation is NOT even an issue! Tanks do NOT need buffing. The issue is that people just do too much DPS too quickly in PvP. Don't give the tanks more mitigation, just nerf the crap out of the damage classes.</p><p> I said: </p><p>"I know this also, as i was there too. I'm not saying tanks didnt take a hit with the EoF combat changes, they did. I'm just sick of people telling everyone that the sky is falling when they really dont know jack. If a full group tries to kill one person, then that person should almost always die. Having said that ask Broncas about that raid we (almost) 1-grouped in Sinking Sands. Having both a warden and a mystic to keep you up helps tremendously. Hell, the raid was mostly grey (59-61), but there were a couple blues/greens in it. We killed off about 3/4 of that raid before they got us. You find me a scout that can tank 24 players at once, for more than 5 seconds. </p><p>Tanks are fine in PvP. If anything the DPS classes need to be toned down (PvP only) longer fights means there are more chances for one side to make a mistake, and more chance for class/game knowledge to come into play. As it stands now, the scouts walk in, burn you down with insane burst damage, and walk away with your coin/tokens"</p><p>QFE QFE QFE QFE. </p>

Chia_Pet
04-29-2007, 09:59 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><cite>Oshef wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree that tanks take hits better then scouts.. much better then scouts. We also don't take half as well as did before EoF. Trust me.. i KNOW this. I was there. And of course, when you're trying to target the warlock the taunts will suck. But when you just burn the hell out of the tank.. the taunts don't matter so much. </blockquote><p> I know this also, as i was there too. I'm not saying tanks didnt take a hit with the EoF combat changes, they did. I'm just sick of people telling everyone that the sky is falling when they really dont know jack. If a full group tries to kill one person, then that person should almost always die. Having said that ask Broncas about that raid we (almost) 1-grouped in Sinking Sands. Having both a warden and a mystic to keep you up helps tremendously. Hell, the raid was mostly grey (59-61), but there were a couple blues/greens in it. We killed off about 3/4 of that raid before they got us. You find me a scout that can tank 24 players at once, for more than 5 seconds.</p><p>Tanks are fine in PvP. If anything the DPS classes need to be toned down (PvP only) longer fights means there are more chances for one side to make a mistake, and more chance for class/game knowledge to come into play. As it stands now, the scouts walk in, burn you down with insane burst damage, and walk away with your coin/tokens.</p></blockquote>make it more interesting paikis, give us some numbers based on your avoidance and mit combined compared to say a guard or paladin. heck use Liluks numbers and your own asa comparison.

Mildavyn
04-30-2007, 01:32 AM
<p>Here ya go Artur. A picture is worth a thousand words. This is me in my usual gear, running my usual buffs. I can increase my avoidance to around 47% if i run my defense song... but I never do. This is self buffed, without potions. For those interested, I was running these buffs at the time: Dove Song, Raxxyl's Brazen Descant, Rousing Opus, Daelis' Frolicking of Blades, Aria of Acclaimation.</p><p>Any tanks care to share their stats?</p><p><img src="http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/3400/paikis2or0.jpg" border="0"></p>

ZhouYu
04-30-2007, 02:02 AM
<p><i>You have about 10% less mig than a typical plate tank that is much better geared than you. A brigand for example in full relic has about 50-52% mig. Also you are a bard, and we all know bards aren't in a better boat than plate tanks are right now, so we feel your pain too. </i></p><p><i>You should have a look at some of the stats from rouges and preds, than comparethem to ap late tank defensive stats. you will understand why we are so freaking [Removed for Content] off.</i></p>

cs01bw
05-27-2007, 12:28 PM
<p>This problem is NOT going away unless we convince the Devs to do something about it!!</p><p> The reality is Non Bard scouts -- are Almost as good at surviving as a Plate Tanks.... and do Way more dmg - i see this as broken.</p>

convict
05-27-2007, 01:59 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><p>This problem is NOT going away unless we convince the Devs to do something about it!!</p><p> The reality is Non Bard scouts -- are Almost as good at surviving as a Plate Tanks.... and do Way more dmg - i see this as broken.</p></blockquote> No reply yet? No suprise there...

Soulhunt
05-28-2007, 04:22 AM
<p>i only read a few pages then got bored...here what i saw that need to be better clarified.</p><p>someone stated that scouts have as good mitigation as tanks......wrong [partily]</p><p>assassins / rangers get zero mit bonuses and only get avoidance bonuses....no where near the avoidance  a monk/bruiser gets. monks/ bruisers wearing leather have about the same mitigation as an assassin or ranger in chain. not counting thier temp buffs.</p><p>wardens wear leather but becuase of thier buffs have more mitigation then most chain wearers</p><p>bards have no offensive or defensive stances...they rely soley on their group buffs to give then any defensive bonus.</p><p>ONLY SWASHIES/BRIGS GET A PERMENANT MITIGATION BUFF AND AAS TO BUFF MITIGATIONS.</p><p>the problem is as i see it...... each class was designed to buff one or all the group to make the group as a whole stronger. soloing these buffs seem to be alittle overpowered....but u got to remember this is a group game...if it where a solo game i could play on my x box and not see all this drama.</p><p>obviously exceptions are there...swashies / brigs get self mit buffs that are alittle over the top when u add in their dps and other abitlities. assassin/ rangers dont have any group buffs worth mentioning.</p><p>mitigations / resists where dropped all around by soe....but they failed to drop the overall damages of spells and melee, and heals. to balance out the game....therefore they made the melee dps classes effectively hit harder. as far as resists go they dropped the resists but gave at t 7 a way to get resists back up using collections and etc.</p><p>im a scout.....lol i love it when people want to nerf a skill that they dont have....TRACKING IS FINE THE WAY IT IS...IF U DONT HAVE IT FIND A SCOUT TO GROUP WITH. ITS A GROUP GAME REMEMBER?</p><p>SOULHUNTER</p>

Saintedone
05-28-2007, 05:31 AM
<p>I think ( my 2 copper pcs), if there gonna make mittigation such a huge issue then they need to change up mittigation to meet the classes - if yr a plate wearer then yr mittigation should count for something. </p><p>Something tiered </p><p>example only:</p><p>plate pc = 100 mit treasured - 120 mit mastercraft - 140 mit legon - 160 mit fabled - 180 mit mythical by tier</p><p>chain pc = 80 mit treasured - 100 mit mastercraft - 120 mit legon - 140 mit fabled - 160 mit mythicle by tier</p><p>leather pc = 60 mit treasured - 80 mit mastercraft - 100 mit legon - 120 mit fabled - 140 mit mythical by tier</p><p>cloth pc = 40 mit treasured - 60 mit mastercraft - 80 mit legon - 100 mit fabled - 120 mythical by tier</p><p>Now in pvp a cloth wearer who doesnt use CA's should only have a 40% chance to hit a plate tank with a weapon </p><p>Leather should only have a 60% chance to hit using CA's at based spells with 80% max with AA's and mastered CA's giving Plate an inate 20% avoidance built in for being a tank class vrs leather and a 10% inate avoidance vrs chain using the same formula.</p><p>Now the classes should hit via there strengths </p><p>casters = spell dam/ranged/AA's</p><p>leather = speed/ranged/CA's/AA's</p><p>chain = speed/CA's/AA's/close in</p><p>plate = weapon dam/defence/CA's/AA's/close in</p><p>please dont flame - Im just tryin to give a base to work from to find a solution... I feel almost as bad for tanks as I feel for us casters (pure tanks anyway)</p>

Elephanton
06-08-2007, 12:29 PM
<p>This is so sick... dimishing return is probably worst idea ever.</p><p>Here's a screen of 70 Warlock with 42.4% mitigation LOOOOOL (it's real)</p><p><a href="http://img73.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pic51nw9.jpg" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://img73.imageshack.us/my.php?i...ge=pic51nw9.jpg</a></p><p>[Removed for Content], my lowbie SK has same miti in offensive <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

Wytie
06-08-2007, 12:44 PM
WE need 30 more pages first then it might get a thought, j/k  but the class nerfs will help this imo so now we have to wait and see if this will still be a viable problem as the nerf could be addressing this indirectly IMO