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View Full Version : EQ2 lowlevel pvp totally sucks


Knightwish
03-12-2007, 11:14 PM
<p>Hello <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I am relatively new to EQII pvp so I don't know much but 2 weeks were enough to realize that there are major exploits in EQII. I know that EQII was originally not meant for PvP (strange though since you should think after EQ SOE could have guessed that at some point people will request PvP). So I can ignore the fact that the enviroment is not PvP friendly. But what the hell is SOE thinking to allow such exploits? I don't know what is worse, the way grouping is handled or the importance of gear in low levels (twinking). I can even tolerate the fact that the classes are completely unbalanced in pvp, because I would just start a class that is better at pvp.</p><p>I'll adress the grouping first. How can it be that we run into a group 20 levels above us ... all but one who is in our range ... in CL and we are good as dead without a chance ??? Because the one of our level would disband, so that he can attack us. And as soon as we are in fight the 20 level highers join his group and kill us with no problem. I cannot even start to understand why something like this is even possible. I don't even blame the guys who do this. It's SOE's job to make sure such exploits don't exist. It cannot be that group-invites are part of pvp tactics, that's [Removed for Content]. During a pvp encounter it shouldn't be possible to join groups or pick up people into your group. Only before and after the encounter. I don't even know why I have to mention this here, one year after PvP servers started.</p><p>Second thing, twinking. Fully twinked characters, especially if they are a strong pvp class, are basically invulnerable. Why is that necessary? Why do toons in t1 or t2 need legendary or fabled items or skills/spells? That means I have to have around 100 plat to get a fair chance in lowlevel pvp? That would mean lowlevel pvp is only an option for people who play like forever and have lots of plat or buy it at ebay. Come on, that's not fair and completely unnessesary. There need not be stuff better than treasured in t2(level 10-19) and no spells better than adept I. Also there need not be stuff better than legendary/mastercrafted in t3(20/22-29/31). Also there need not be horses in this level. I'm pretty sure if you remove fabled from the first 3 tiers the quality of pvp and the game in general will rise. When I buy the game I don't want to spend 3 month farming before I have enough cash to get the gear I need to pvp, that's [Removed for Content].</p><p>A good pvp is about player skill, not just gear. And that complete idiots can get any title just because they can afford to buy the best gear, and can beat me anytime no matter what tactics I try just pisses me off. My friends and I have played many pvp games, and we are pretty good at it. And I gave EQII PvP a chance because I was told it was balanced. But thé PvP we expecienced in the past 2 weeks was complete batsht. It was developed by people who either have no clue or just don't care about pvp at all. I wonder why SOE even started PvP servers, just to get a few more bucks out of people who have no skill but like to think they do? Come on. This game can have good pvp if SOE just start to care already.</p><p>To make this critizism a constructive one here is my idea: Create a new pvp server. On the new server remove all but the treasured items from t1 and t2 also all spells and skills higher than adept I. Remove all fabled and master Is from t3. Set level restriction for horses to level 30 (paladins can keep theirs for god's sake - I don't like paladins but it is one of their skills so they should keep it). Also you should really improve the guards or remove them completely. If they can be pulled away that easy then they just give people a wrong idea of a safety that doesn't really exist. And give them see invis. That's not asked too much for a guard or is it? Just give them an additional mage type npc who can see invis and buff them. (i.e. at xroads). Don't allow group invites/disbands during a pvp encounter. Don't allow that a toon 20 levels higher than another can attack him in a 4 level range pvp zone like CL. Not even if grouped. If a lvl 17 groups with 5 lvl 35s it's his own problem if they can't help him. I see no reason to group like this other than to exploit.</p>

Killque
03-12-2007, 11:27 PM
<cite>Knightwish wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Hello <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I am relatively new to EQII pvp so I don't know much but 2 weeks were enough to realize that there are major exploits in EQII. I know that EQII was originally not meant for PvP (strange though since you should think after EQ SOE could have guessed that at some point people will request PvP). So I can ignore the fact that the enviroment is not PvP friendly. But what the hell is SOE thinking to allow such exploits? I don't know what is worse, the way grouping is handled or the importance of gear in low levels (twinking). I can even tolerate the fact that the classes are completely unbalanced in pvp, because I would just start a class that is better at pvp.</p><p>I'll adress the grouping first. How can it be that we run into a group 20 levels above us ... all but one who is in our range ... in CL and we are good as dead without a chance ??? Because the one of our level would disband, so that he can attack us. And as soon as we are in fight the 20 level highers join his group and kill us with no problem. I cannot even start to understand why something like this is even possible. I don't even blame the guys who do this. It's SOE's job to make sure such exploits don't exist. It cannot be that group-invites are part of pvp tactics, that's [I cannot control my vocabulary]. During a pvp encounter it shouldn't be possible to join groups or pick up people into your group. Only before and after the encounter. I don't even know why I have to mention this here, one year after PvP servers started.</p><p>Second thing, twinking. Fully twinked characters, especially if they are a strong pvp class, are basically invulnerable. Why is that necessary? Why do toons in t1 or t2 need legendary or fabled items or skills/spells? That means I have to have around 100 plat to get a fair chance in lowlevel pvp? That would mean lowlevel pvp is only an option for people who play like forever and have lots of plat or buy it at ebay. Come on, that's not fair and completely unnessesary. There need not be stuff better than treasured in t2(level 10-19) and no spells better than adept I. Also there need not be stuff better than legendary/mastercrafted in t3(20/22-29/31). Also there need not be horses in this level. I'm pretty sure if you remove fabled from the first 3 tiers the quality of pvp and the game in general will rise. When I buy the game I don't want to spend 3 month farming before I have enough cash to get the gear I need to pvp, that's [I cannot control my vocabulary].</p><p>A good pvp is about player skill, not just gear. And that complete idiots can get any title just because they can afford to buy the best gear, and can beat me anytime no matter what tactics I try just pisses me off. My friends and I have played many pvp games, and we are pretty good at it. And I gave EQII PvP a chance because I was told it was balanced. But thé PvP we expecienced in the past 2 weeks was complete batsht. It was developed by people who either have no clue or just don't care about pvp at all. I wonder why SOE even started PvP servers, just to get a few more bucks out of people who have no skill but like to think they do? Come on. This game can have good pvp if SOE just start to care already.</p><p>To make this critizism a constructive one here is my idea: Create a new pvp server. On the new server remove all but the treasured items from t1 and t2 also all spells and skills higher than adept I. Remove all fabled and master Is from t3. Set level restriction for horses to level 30 (paladins can keep theirs for god's sake - I don't like paladins but it is one of their skills so they should keep it). Also you should really improve the guards or remove them completely. If they can be pulled away that easy then they just give people a wrong idea of a safety that doesn't really exist. And give them see invis. That's not asked too much for a guard or is it? Just give them an additional mage type npc who can see invis and buff them. (i.e. at xroads). Don't allow group invites/disbands during a pvp encounter. Don't allow that a toon 20 levels higher than another can attack him in a 4 level range pvp zone like CL. Not even if grouped. If a lvl 17 groups with 5 lvl 35s it's his own problem if they can't help him. I see no reason to group like this other than to exploit.</p></blockquote>Good luck with that.

tass
03-12-2007, 11:55 PM
Only read the first sentance. So lets wrap it. Low level pvp is every possible way to get around somthing ever created with the guantlet of pvp locked fabled out twinks. If ur not twinked you dont win. Now once u get out of low teirs ur rewarded with sitting on a dock waiting for some poor bastage to zone with a bunch of other guys. And that explains eq2 pvp. Have a nice day stop by vanguard so I can kill u so many times u wonder how its possible. Take care now bye bye then.

Killque
03-13-2007, 12:09 AM
<p>Were so helpful arnt we!</p><p>Please remember, we all started out the EXACT SAME WAY! Thoes days are over for me now, didnt take long to get past it. I remember making a post exactly like yours about 2 years ago.... well as you can see that has changed.</p><p>Do your thing, play or dont play. Plenty of placed to get away from the Twinks. This game is an investment, and should be treated as such. If your not willing to invest, this is probably not the game for you.</p><p> It is also a very social game. Get in groups, meet people, guilds work wonders for the problems your facing. Learn the game mechanics, and get used to them, trust me they are not going to change ever or if they do, its not going to be over night.</p><p> Good luck. I mean it.</p>

Radigazt
03-13-2007, 12:15 AM
<p>Group Invites: Shouldn't work that way, and if it's possible then it's an exploit that needs to be addressed.  You're not supposed to be able to join a group that's engaged in PvP.  </p><p>Outside Healers: It's quite possible the higher level out of group person was a healer healing people during your fight.  That is being fixed so that they cannot heal outside of their level range ... whatever that means.  Not perfect, I'd rather you not be able to heal at all outside of your group.  </p><p>Twinks, Gear, Masters, and Loot in general: Like it or not, this is a loot based game.  Everything that EQ2 is has been built around loot.  It is going to be difficult to get SOE to accept anything that nullifies all of the work they put into content and loot, so any solution you suggest needs to keep the need for loot around, otherwise, SOE simply will not implement that solution.  I think what you want is a way to lessen the impact but still allow loot to make a difference ... and I'd support that.  I twink my characters because I want to be as good as possible, but I freely admit that twinks are way more powerful than non-twinks.  My suggestion is to allow characters who mentor down to have their mentored gear act as Mastercrafted.  Sure, it means you'll have to blitz through T2 and probably T3, but you can then come back and mentor down and do those quests you missed and PvP as a twink.  The benefit is that there's always a reason to quest for better gear than Mastercrafted, but you'll be quite competitive in Mastercrafted.  I'm sure the crafters who make Mastercrafted gear (like me) wouldn't be too happy about it though.  </p><p>New Player Competition Curve: The curve to get from a new player on a PvP server to a competitive player is very steep.  In addition to the PvP elements--which are vast--there is a very heavy loot element that makes it virtually impossible for new players to compete.  I agree that this needs to be addressed, but I'm not sure I have the answer for this one.  Twinks lock xp and twink out because they can find the most PvP action in the lower tiers, and it's very inexpensive-comparatively to twink out at the lower tiers compared to the higher tiers.  But, it creates a very bad environment for the new players.  The feeling of powerlessness stems primarily from the fact that this is a loot based game, and when the unexperienced PvP'er is at such a loot-gear advantage, he's almost always going to lose, thus stunting the growth of the PvP community.  </p><p>I hear your problems, and you have some valid concerns, and I do feel for ya ... but what we need is good solutions and then a community committed to making SOE realize how to fix it.  </p>

Kurindor_Mythecnea
03-13-2007, 12:37 AM
I hold an assembly of many solutions...I just don't want to present it without finding an alternative for attaining "token" PvP gear. meneedsbrainstormhelps =

TheLopper
03-13-2007, 12:42 AM
<p>I only read the title but heres my suggestion...</p><p>Level up</p>

Oneira
03-13-2007, 03:25 AM
<cite>Knightwish wrote:</cite><blockquote> <p>Second thing, twinking. Fully twinked characters, especially if they are a strong pvp class, are basically invulnerable. Why is that necessary? Why do toons in t1 or t2 need legendary or fabled items or skills/spells? That means I have to have around 100 plat to get a fair chance in lowlevel pvp? That would mean lowlevel pvp is only an option for people who play like forever and have lots of plat or buy it at ebay. Come on, that's not fair and completely unnessesary. There need not be stuff better than treasured in t2(level 10-19) and no spells better than adept I. Also there need not be stuff better than legendary/mastercrafted in t3(20/22-29/31). Also there need not be horses in this level. I'm pretty sure if you remove fabled from the first 3 tiers the quality of pvp and the game in general will rise. When I buy the game I don't want to spend 3 month farming before I have enough cash to get the gear I ed to pvp, that's [I cannot control my vocabulary].</p></blockquote>Having MC gear or better at any level is pretty much a necessity, but you don't have to have 100 plat to twink yourself out for t2.  I have a 17 brigand in mostly MC with a couple pieces of treasured and legendary, and I got just about all of it by harvesting rares and killing nameds.  It's not that hard to get good equipment for t2 if you want to stay there for a while, and fact is that I do for one simple reason:  the faction requirements.  You start at -10,000 and can't even buy a pvp potion until you hit +7000 faction.  That's about 700 kills I'm not budging until I get at least that far.

Kocia
03-13-2007, 05:38 AM
Cry more

Norrsken
03-13-2007, 05:57 AM
<cite>Knightwish wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Hello <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I am relatively new to EQII pvp so I don't know much but 2 weeks were enough to realize that there are major exploits in EQII. I know that EQII was originally not meant for PvP (strange though since you should think after EQ SOE could have guessed that at some point people will request PvP). So I can ignore the fact that the enviroment is not PvP friendly. But what the hell is SOE thinking to allow such exploits? I don't know what is worse, the way grouping is handled or the importance of gear in low levels (twinking). I can even tolerate the fact that the classes are completely unbalanced in pvp, because I would just start a class that is better at pvp.</p><p>I'll adress the grouping first. How can it be that we run into a group 20 levels above us ... all but one who is in our range ... in CL and we are good as dead without a chance ??? Because the one of our level would disband, so that he can attack us. And as soon as we are in fight the 20 level highers join his group and kill us with no problem. I cannot even start to understand why something like this is even possible. I don't even blame the guys who do this. It's SOE's job to make sure such exploits don't exist. It cannot be that group-invites are part of pvp tactics, that's [I cannot control my vocabulary]. During a pvp encounter it shouldn't be possible to join groups or pick up people into your group. Only before and after the encounter. I don't even know why I have to mention this here, one year after PvP servers started.</p><p>Second thing, twinking. Fully twinked characters, especially if they are a strong pvp class, are basically invulnerable. Why is that necessary? Why do toons in t1 or t2 need legendary or fabled items or skills/spells? That means I have to have around 100 plat to get a fair chance in lowlevel pvp? That would mean lowlevel pvp is only an option for people who play like forever and have lots of plat or buy it at ebay. Come on, that's not fair and completely unnessesary. There need not be stuff better than treasured in t2(level 10-19) and no spells better than adept I. Also there need not be stuff better than legendary/mastercrafted in t3(20/22-29/31). Also there need not be horses in this level. I'm pretty sure if you remove fabled from the first 3 tiers the quality of pvp and the game in general will rise. When I buy the game I don't want to spend 3 month farming before I have enough cash to get the gear I need to pvp, that's [I cannot control my vocabulary].</p><p>A good pvp is about player skill, not just gear. And that complete idiots can get any title just because they can afford to buy the best gear, and can beat me anytime no matter what tactics I try just pisses me off. My friends and I have played many pvp games, and we are pretty good at it. And I gave EQII PvP a chance because I was told it was balanced. But thé PvP we expecienced in the past 2 weeks was complete batsht. It was developed by people who either have no clue or just don't care about pvp at all. I wonder why SOE even started PvP servers, just to get a few more bucks out of people who have no skill but like to think they do? Come on. This game can have good pvp if SOE just start to care already.</p><p>To make this critizism a constructive one here is my idea: Create a new pvp server. On the new server remove all but the treasured items from t1 and t2 also all spells and skills higher than adept I. Remove all fabled and master Is from t3. Set level restriction for horses to level 30 (paladins can keep theirs for god's sake - I don't like paladins but it is one of their skills so they should keep it). Also you should really improve the guards or remove them completely. If they can be pulled away that easy then they just give people a wrong idea of a safety that doesn't really exist. And give them see invis. That's not asked too much for a guard or is it? Just give them an additional mage type npc who can see invis and buff them. (i.e. at xroads). Don't allow group invites/disbands during a pvp encounter. Don't allow that a toon 20 levels higher than another can attack him in a 4 level range pvp zone like CL. Not even if grouped. If a lvl 17 groups with 5 lvl 35s it's his own problem if they can't help him. I see no reason to group like this other than to exploit.</p></blockquote>Those 20lvls above you joining group like that is a fairly recently popped up exploit. It is not supposed to work like that, and will be dealt with. You dont need 100pp to twink. You need about a week in total to have a t2/3 twink. And probably 20-40pp under your belt as well. How to do it? 1, start a tradeskill. MAke your buddies start one too. (make sure you can make your AD3 spells and gear.) 2, go harvest all the rares you need for your gear and make it. 3, level up to where you want to be, don the gear, and kick [Removed for Content]. This is fully accomplishable in a week of casual gameplay. I've done it on pretty much all my toons. Youw ill also end up with 20-40pp worth of rares you wont use and can sell on the broker. Spend the plat on masters or gear. Now, when you've done that and still get your [Removed for Content] whipped, realize that there is a skill component in the game. The classes are fairly balanced (With the exception of the swashy in t7, which will probably take you some time to get to). MOST of us playing on this server have been around since they opened them. Most of us know how to fight pretty much every class in the game with our class of choice. You will be hitting brick walls from time to time, and it will be because those are the skilled players (we have them here too yaknow). They will lay waste to you no matter how good gear you have. At least until you start getting some skill yourself. And yeah, mastercrafted gear and skills are the norm on nagafen. Anything worse and you are behind on the curve.

Bozidar
03-13-2007, 09:00 AM
<cite>TheLopper wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I only read the title but heres my suggestion...</p><p>Level up</p></blockquote>The 50's and 60's that my T3 team takes out probably thought this was the answer, too.

WasFycksir
03-13-2007, 09:13 AM
You sure learned alot in two weeks.  It's almost as if you have been playing for over a year /cough.

Cantilena
03-13-2007, 09:22 AM
<p>Here's the easy solution to low level twinking:</p><p>Make the game SO easy and xp SO fast that a complete idiot can ding lvl 20 in about a week or so without even trying.</p><p>Oh wait, they did that already.  Nevermind.  There is no problem here.</p>

Knightwish
03-13-2007, 10:38 AM
<p>I was really hoping someone who can read would answer this.Guess that's the reason why I am here since nov 2004 and only bothered to 'discuss' here 3 times.</p><p>I said lowlevel PvP sucks ...  not PvP in general. How does leveling up solve that problem??? I turn xp off so I get AAs from quests and named, so what is the point of telling me to level up ... lol. Also I do have a 26(I won't level higher than 27 because I mostly harvest in cl and nek right now) full mastercrafted already and I could easily harvest and farm 2 or 3 plat a day... if I wanted. I am just tired of doing that and think  at LOW levels ... LOW ... there need not be so good gear. People are learning the game then, so why [Removed for Content] them off that early? I won't quit, I just wanted to say that it is not fair and not well done the way it is. This hasn't anything to do with soe's achievement system. I play this game since day one ... just not pvp. I said I am an EQII-pvp newb, not new to EQII as such. Ppl can still raid and do tradeskills and farm and whatever from 30-70. Those who want that can ... as someone just mentioned ... go to 30 in no time. You guys need to learn to read really. I want to do lowlevel pvp but don't want to have to level to 70 for that. I could and probably will have to ... I just think this is dumb. If lowlevel pvp was made better, then more ppl would do it and it would be better quality and certainly more fun. Right now we are just running from all who have destroyer and higher title and pick on those who have none or just hunter or slayer. This is a pretty weak tactic and not really fun imho. I want a good fight, not just kill fast or/and run. I am usually not someone who runs from a fight, I rather fight to the last breath so to speak. But soe doesn't leave newbs alot of choice. We can either get a title by acting like cowardly bullies or we get none. That's what pisses me off. I don't enjoy killing ppl who just go harvesting or do not actively pvp. But oh well if that's the way it has to be then so be it. Sorry that I suggested to improve the game I pay for playing. Have a good one.</p>

Bozidar
03-13-2007, 11:03 AM
<cite>Knightwish wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I am just tired of doing that and think  at LOW levels ... LOW ... there need not be so good gear. </p><p>We can either get a title by acting like cowardly bullies or we get none. </p></blockquote><p> Ok, so you're not mad about the fact that you can't compete in low level pvp, you're just frustrated because you don't UNDERSTAND low level pvp.  Gear is gear.. at some point it means less, but don't say you can farm for x amount of plat a day and then whine about not having good gear.  No excuse.. all PvP is about twinking to the max.  If you're not twinking as much as you can then you're just not TRYING.</p><p>It's not a solo game.  Get a group, form a good group, and challenge other players.  Assuming your server doesn't have an entire city population full of absolute cowardly wussies the way it is for Qeynos on Vox, folks will come out from under the guards to fight you.</p>

Norrsken
03-13-2007, 11:05 AM
<cite>Knightwish wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I was really hoping someone who can read would answer this.Guess that's the reason why I am here since nov 2004 and only bothered to 'discuss' here 3 times.</p><p>I said lowlevel PvP sucks ...  not PvP in general. How does leveling up solve that problem??? I turn xp off so I get AAs from quests and named, so what is the point of telling me to level up ... lol. Also I do have a 26(I won't level higher than 27 because I mostly harvest in cl and nek right now) full mastercrafted already and I could easily harvest and farm 2 or 3 plat a day... if I wanted. I am just tired of doing that and think  at LOW levels ... LOW ... there need not be so good gear. People are learning the game then, so why [Removed for Content] them off that early? I won't quit, I just wanted to say that it is not fair and not well done the way it is. This hasn't anything to do with soe's achievement system. I play this game since day one ... just not pvp. I said I am an EQII-pvp newb, not new to EQII as such. Ppl can still raid and do tradeskills and farm and whatever from 30-70. Those who want that can ... as someone just mentioned ... go to 30 in no time. You guys need to learn to read really. I want to do lowlevel pvp but don't want to have to level to 70 for that. I could and probably will have to ... I just think this is dumb. If lowlevel pvp was made better, then more ppl would do it and it would be better quality and certainly more fun. Right now we are just running from all who have destroyer and higher title and pick on those who have none or just hunter or slayer. This is a pretty weak tactic and not really fun imho. I want a good fight, not just kill fast or/and run. I am usually not someone who runs from a fight, I rather fight to the last breath so to speak. But soe doesn't leave newbs alot of choice. We can either get a title by acting like cowardly bullies or we get none. That's what pisses me off. I don't enjoy killing ppl who just go harvesting or do not actively pvp. But oh well if that's the way it has to be then so be it. Sorry that I suggested to improve the game I pay for playing. Have a good one.</p></blockquote>Well, that is not how it is working. People fight eachothers twinks at t2/3. You basically have 2 options, gear up, or level up. And nice that you have been playing EQ2 for a long time. But pvp is still a whole other game, and the playstyle for pvp encounters is vastly different than pve combat.

seahawk
03-13-2007, 11:08 AM
<cite>Knightwish wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I was really hoping someone who can read would answer this.Guess that's the reason why I am here since nov 2004 and only bothered to 'discuss' here 3 times.</p><p>I said lowlevel PvP sucks ...  not PvP in general. How does leveling up solve that problem??? I turn xp off so I get AAs from quests and named, so what is the point of telling me to level up ... lol. Also I do have a 26(I won't level higher than 27 because I mostly harvest in cl and nek right now) full mastercrafted already and I could easily harvest and farm 2 or 3 plat a day... if I wanted. I am just tired of doing that and think  at LOW levels ... LOW ... there need not be so good gear. People are learning the game then, so why [Removed for Content] them off that early? I won't quit, I just wanted to say that it is not fair and not well done the way it is. This hasn't anything to do with soe's achievement system. I play this game since day one ... just not pvp. I said I am an EQII-pvp newb, not new to EQII as such. Ppl can still raid and do tradeskills and farm and whatever from 30-70. Those who want that can ... as someone just mentioned ... go to 30 in no time. You guys need to learn to read really. I want to do lowlevel pvp but don't want to have to level to 70 for that. I could and probably will have to ... I just think this is dumb. If lowlevel pvp was made better, then more ppl would do it and it would be better quality and certainly more fun. Right now we are just running from all who have destroyer and higher title and pick on those who have none or just hunter or slayer. This is a pretty weak tactic and not really fun imho. I want a good fight, not just kill fast or/and run. I am usually not someone who runs from a fight, I rather fight to the last breath so to speak. But soe doesn't leave newbs alot of choice. We can either get a title by acting like cowardly bullies or we get none. That's what pisses me off. I don't enjoy killing ppl who just go harvesting or do not actively pvp. But oh well if that's the way it has to be then so be it. Sorry that I suggested to improve the game I pay for playing. Have a good one.</p><p><span style="font-size: x-small"><span style="color: #ffff00">I did read both your posts FWIW.. <hint a double space here and there would make your posts easier to read></span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small"><span style="color: #ffff00"> Not to sound rude, but it seems to me that you are your own problem.  You mention that you shut off your Exp, but yet you don't want to spend the time to harvest your rares to get better gear and skill upgrades.  </span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small"><span style="color: #ffff00">A sad reality is that many people level lock at the lower tiers because that is where the bulk of the population resides.  I personally, don't think much of level locking because I don't feel it is a challenge to twink oneself and kill newbies (to PvP) like yourself.  That takes no skill.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small"><span style="color: #ffff00">Having said that, I have no problem with those that choose to do that.  The game is what it is.  Period.  IF you choose to shut off EXP and stay in the lower tiers you will get rolled by the Twinks.  My suggestion is spend a few nights and get your rares and spell upgrades.  Your experience will be much different.  LIke some other poster in this thread mentioned, this game is gear and upgrade dependant.  If it wasn't, it would simply be a button mashing game and any noob with App 2's could compete with someone who actually spent the time to harvest, upgrade etc.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small"><span style="color: #ffff00">As for having to have 20plat plus to Twink yourself out.. I would like to differ.  OF course my definition of a Twink maybe a bit different, but with player skill you can complete with Mastercrafted gear and Adept 3's if you choose to stay in that tier.  It is not necessary to roll with Fabled/Legendary and all Master 1 skills to "survive" in that tier.  If you get MC and Adept 3's and are still getting rolled 1v1, than you may want to consider a new class to play.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small"><span style="color: #ffff00">On a personal note, I like the fact that this game makes the player go out and upgrade.  I would hate to think that someone fresh off the boat can roll a toon and straight up compete with someone that has invested their time to upgrade and learn the ropes of their profession.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small"><span style="color: #ffff00"> I hope this helps, and it is only my opinion.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small"><span style="color: #ffff00"> Best of luck mate!</span></span></p></blockquote>

Knightwish
03-13-2007, 11:55 AM
<p>Well when I started 2 weeks ago I thought I need to level lock, I am a 15 assi btw and friends are 15 sk and 15 warden which is imho a pretty good pvp setup. The sk is fully mastercrafted but I am not yet. I was told we had to do that to have a chance in lowlevel pvp. </p><p> My 26 died so often that I lost count, he is not for pvp, so I mostly just get killed harvesting or waiting for nameds in wc. He is just for getting better gear for my pvp toons, as you suggested. Our little pvp squad has about everything, speed, see invis, track, dps, whatever you need for pvp I think. The thing is we know how to play games and are good at it. That's why I know when I say something is not fair. And if we 3 get owned by a single 17er without being able to dmg him much then this whole thing doesn't make a lot of sense. I mean we all have at least one master II choice so even if our gear is not all fabled we should have been able to to get a few good shots <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I don't know any cheats though so I cannot tell if he just had that good pvp gear/potions or did actually cheat. He was one title higher than destroyer (forgot how the title was called, something with 'D'<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. That means that he basically never dies, and since then we run if we only see these in our range. Funny thing is we even killed a 25 with this group, he was without title though and and didn't really expect us to attack him lol.</p><p>Well maybe we should just level and try higher level pvp. Just one thing, you said you like twinks because you don't want noobs to kill you. But honestly if a noob manages to kill you with gear of the same level that you use, then you probably suck at pvp lol. That's what I mean, the more gear counts, the less does pvp skill count. Real pvp skill, like a good reaction and to know how to use your skills. Not just sitting there and let your gear fight for you <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I can't even imagine how that is fun hehe.  </p>

Bozidar
03-13-2007, 12:03 PM
<cite>Knightwish wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Well when I started 2 weeks ago I thought I need to level lock, I am a 15 assi btw and friends are 15 sk and 15 warden which is imho a pretty good pvp setup. The sk is fully mastercrafted but I am not yet. I was told we had to do that to have a chance in lowlevel pvp. </p><p> And if we 3 get owned by a single 17er without being able to dmg him much then this whole thing doesn't make a lot of sense. </p></blockquote><p> So much of it just... DEPENDS.</p><p>Depends on your choices, and your gear, and your spells.</p><p>I might suggest that you quickly drop the assassin, and get a brigand.  Assassins are nice, but there are way more scouts out there than clothies, and as a brigand you can track other scouts who're stealthed.   As a brigand you can hide your group from anyone who's not a swashy (or a lvl 20 with a totem).  Brigands can take much more of a beating than a sin, and in a small team that's a good thing.</p><p>I have an assassin, i have 2.. but they're not <i>great</i> for small team low lvl pvp.  Make a brig, trust me.</p><p>As for getting owned by a single 17.. chances are it was a warden, and chances are they used a god power.  If there are three of you at 15th level, with a healer, in master crafted and i PRAY with Adept III's.. then you should never die to a lvl 17.</p>

Radigazt
03-13-2007, 12:06 PM
<cite>Knightwish wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I was really hoping someone who can read would answer this.</p></blockquote> Did you not read my post above?  Yeah, there have been some "cry more noob" type posts, but mine was not one of them.  I gave you very specific answers, so if you want help, it's a good idea to identify those of us who actually did help.  I'm not the only person who posted a helpful reply either.  If you offend us ... you're just not going to get help from anyone.  <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

seahawk
03-13-2007, 12:11 PM
<cite>Knightwish wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>" Just one thing, you said you like twinks because you don't want noobs to kill you. "</p><p>Who are you referring to?</p><p> I said "<span style="color: #ffff00">I personally, <b><i><span style="color: #cc0000">don't</span></i></b> think much of level locking because I <b><i><span style="color: #cc0000">don'</span><span style="color: #cc0000">t</span></i></b> feel it is a challenge to twink oneself and kill newbies (to PvP) like yourself.  That takes no skill.</span></p><p><span style="color: #33cc00">I don't PvP in the lower tiers. My Swashi is 70 and my wizzy is 68.  I have been through those tiers, but for me I like the high end PvP.  Although, it is nice to see all the action in those tiers.  I do understand why people like to level lock in those tiers.</span></p><p>ON a side note.. why is it when I quote someone and reply, my reply gets "lumped" in their quote?  I must be doing something wrong.</p></blockquote>

Knightwish
03-13-2007, 12:23 PM
<p>Seahawk, I was referring to this:</p><p>On a personal note, I like the fact that this game makes the player go out and upgrade.  I would hate to think that someone fresh off the boat can roll a toon and straight up compete with someone that has invested their time to upgrade and learn the ropes of their profession.</p><p>Maybe I read that one wrong though.</p><p>Radigatz, I'm sorry I didn't mean you. I am just getting a bit impatient when I think I make a good point and don't get the feedback I think I deserve lol. Sorry about that.</p><p>I think downtime should be over, I'll go delete my assassin for a brigant <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I really didn't know they can track invis pvp, that seems to be something I cannot go without. </p>

Radigazt
03-13-2007, 12:24 PM
<p>Solutions have been given to you, like them or not, here is my paraphrase of some of the other posters:</p><p>Ulvhamne:  Harvest and craft, it'll get you the rares you need and money to sell the other rares.</p><p>TheLopper:  Level up past this stuff to where there are less PvP'ers to gank you senseless.</p><p>Bozidar:  If you don't have the gear, you need a group.</p><p>All of that is sound advice, and if you don't like it, well maybe you're just not as committed to PvP'ing as those of us who have done these things.  Not every game is instantly-competitive, and unfortunately for you, EQ2 is one of those that takes time and committment to compete.  FYI, if you have 20 plat you can fully twink any toon in T2 or T3, and come [I cannot control my vocabulary] close to doing so in the less-PvP-populated T4 and T5.  Guess how those of us on the server made plat?  We 1) Harvested, 2) Crafted, 3) Farmed named mobs for loot, and 4) leveled up a higher level toon to use its money to twink out the lower level PvP alts.  This is why Killque and others mentioned that we've all been through what  you're going through.  If you want PvE, there are plenty of servers that will gladly congeal together like little lemmings for the sole purpose of grinding xp and risklessly farm named mobs.  But if you are worried about something non-formulaic preying on you while you do those things ... well then you'll need to invest into PvP'ing.  </p><p>Three quick solutions for you:  A) Level up to T4, there's a lot less PvP in T4 and up than there is in T2 and T3, or B) Harvest/craft/farm and use the money to twink out a level locked character, then make sure you have all your Mastercrafted Armor and at least Adept 3's for the next tier before you unlock and level up, or C) take one character that you really don't give a shizzle about and leve him up.  Make him your farmer of nameds and harvester of rares.  When he's well above the tiers you want to harvest, you'll get more rares harvesting the lower tiers, and it'll be safer since he's outside of most PvP'ers level range.  When he dies, remember, you don't give a shizzle if he dies or not, he's not your real PvP toon.  When you get to T3 harvesting, go to the instanced zone in Zarvonn's Tower, it has plenty of nodes, no lockout timer, and no mobs, so you can harvest till your heart's content and you can make fat cash without taking any risks ... all you have to do is invest the time.  Those T3 rares will always bring you good money because everyone is buying them to twink out their T3 toons.  </p><p>Next time you start a thread whining, and people give you good solid advice ... THANK THEM.  </p>

seahawk
03-13-2007, 12:34 PM
<cite>Knightwish wrote:</cite><blockquote><p> That's what I mean, the more gear counts, the less does pvp skill count. Real pvp skill, like a good reaction and to know how to use your skills. Not just sitting there and let your gear fight for you <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I can't even imagine how that is fun hehe.  </p><p><span style="font-size: small"><span style="color: #00ff00">This statement bothers me, because if you truly believe that then you should probably find another game to play.  You would have really been ticked off at this game prior to diminishing returns and the resist and mitigation nerfs.  I get the impression you are looking for the easy way out and don't want to spend the time to better your toons.  Or the flip side of that argument is, you want to nerf those that do take the time to better their toons so that you can compete with them.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: small"><span style="color: #00ff00">This game is easy enough as it is, and some classes have it much better than others.  LIke I mentioned earlier, it is YOUR decision to NOT harvest and upgrade.  I would never envision playing this game without all adept 3's and there are many people out there that think like me in that regard.  IF you happen to come upon one of those people chances are your band  will get rolled.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-size: small"><span style="color: #00ff00">Anyways, I was just giving my 2 cents and speaking from my experiences on Venekor.  I do wish you luck, and I also happen to think that overall this game is pretty good and that you need to maybe alter your perspective of what is fair in this game. </span></span></p></blockquote>

Radigazt
03-13-2007, 12:37 PM
<p>The titles go like this in decending order:</p><p>Overseer - Highest possible title, only a few people on the server have it, only one I can think of offhand is Brokensword one of the best T7 Brigands and he has a solid PvP group. Master - Very high title, not many people have this title either.  There is exactly 1 T3 Master and she got most of her title ganking lowbies when the lowbie zones had an 8 level range.  General - Extremely high title as well, I know of one General in T4 and one more in T3 (although my T3 toon is on the verge of General too). Dreadnaught - This is generally the highest title you'll see anywhere, there are a few of us in T3 but I don't know of any in T2.  Almost all of the Dreadnaughts are T4 and above.  Champion - This is the mark of excellence in every tier.  You'll see a fair amount of Champions in every tier, and most of them are very tough adversaries.  Destroyer - this typical title can be attained in any tier.  Not every Destroyer is a good player, and not every good player has achieved this rank. Slayer - It's a low level title, but a kinda cool name.  <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Hunter - Lowest title, easy to obtain, but it's a nice feeling to finally have a title at all.  Untitled - this is the beginner state, everyone begins here, even the skilled players rolling twinked alts.  </p>

Norrsken
03-13-2007, 12:37 PM
<cite>Knightwish wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Seahawk, I was referring to this:</p><p>On a personal note, I like the fact that this game makes the player go out and upgrade.  I would hate to think that someone fresh off the boat can roll a toon and straight up compete with someone that has invested their time to upgrade and learn the ropes of their profession.</p><p>Maybe I read that one wrong though.</p><p>Radigatz, I'm sorry I didn't mean you. I am just getting a bit impatient when I think I make a good point and don't get the feedback I think I deserve lol. Sorry about that.</p><p>I think downtime should be over, I'll go delete my assassin for a brigant <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I really didn't know they can track invis pvp, that seems to be something I cannot go without. </p></blockquote>You got it wrong. The assassin track invis, the brigand track stealth. With totems, everyone with track can track both.

Bloodfa
03-13-2007, 12:40 PM
<p>Wait, you're playing evil and getting owned in PvP? <img src="/smilies/0a4d7238daa496a758252d0a2b1a1384.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Sorry, it's usually the other way on Nagafen. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I'd have to agree with the 'gear up' posts.  Levelling up, as well, but that has its' own risks.  The suggestion to roll a Brigand is a good one; if it's a fair fight with an Assassin, I tend to end up still alive at the end.  Brigands ... not so much.  Also, know when to run.  Make a macro so you can inform the party it's time to beat feet with just the click of a button.  Trying to win every combat will just frustrate you.  Sometimes you're the dog, sometimes you're the fire hydrant.  Realize when you're in trouble <i>before</i> the fight begins.  If you're out soloing and harvesting, don't ignore that full party of grays making a beeline for you.  Chances are, they're not heading that way out of coincidence, and underestimating your quarry can be expensive.  I've been in groups that turned the tables on guys waaaaay in the red, and recieved a few "huh, how'd that happen" deaths from gray rat-packs.  Shrug it off, grab a brew, and tell yourself "next time, he's mine".</p><p>Or roll a Fury and let Pact of the Cheetah save you.</p>

seahawk
03-13-2007, 12:41 PM
<cite>Knightwish wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Seahawk, I was referring to this:</p><p>On a personal note, I like the fact that this game makes the player go out and upgrade.  I would hate to think that someone fresh off the boat can roll a toon and straight up compete with someone that has invested their time to upgrade and learn the ropes of their profession. <b><i>-Seahawk91</i></b></p><p><span style="font-size: small"><span style="color: #cccc00">That quote does not equal your quote of --</span></p><p>" <span style="color: #00cc00">Just one thing, you said you like twinks because you don't want noobs to kill you</span>. " <b><i>-Knightwish</i></b></p><p>[size="small"><span style="color: #cccc00">Anyways, as for seeing invis or stealth on your brigand.. get totems.  You should never leave home without them!  If you are unsure which ones to use, that would be Owl and Butterfly totems.</span></span></p><p><span style="color: #cccc00">One more note on Totems, you may think that since your Brigand sees stealth you will not need to buy the see stealth totem.  While not entirely untrue, you see stealth only when stealthed yourself.  So, I suggest still buying both the Owl and Butterfly Totems so you dont have to worry about being stealthed to see stealth.[/size]</p><p><span style="color: #cccc00"]Also sorry for butchering Quotes and the like.. I am still trying to figure out this new format.  I am a forum noob.</span></p></blockquote>

seahawk
03-13-2007, 12:50 PM
<p>^^^ fourm noob.</p><p>LOL!  I give up.. hope you can figure out what I was trying to say.</p><p>Anyways, best of luck and happy hunting.</p>

Bozidar
03-13-2007, 01:20 PM
<cite>seahawk91 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>^^^ fourm noob.</p><p>LOL!  I give up.. hope you can figure out what I was trying to say.</p><p>Anyways, best of luck and happy hunting.</p></blockquote><p> you're saying it don't matter what kinda scout you are, get a totem for invis and stealth and keep them up at all times so that you can track everyone, every time.</p><p>But this guy i'm talking to is in T2.  No totems, ftw.  Roll a brig.. make your party happy.</p><p>Rogue (Brig/Swash), Druid, Tank.. BEST 3-man combo you can have in pvp, IMO.</p>

Killque
03-13-2007, 01:58 PM
<cite>Knightwish wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I was really hoping someone who can read would answer this.Guess that's the reason why I am here since nov 2004 and only bothered to 'discuss' here 3 times.</p><p>I said lowlevel PvP sucks ...  not PvP in general. How does leveling up solve that problem??? I turn xp off so I get AAs from quests and named, so what is the point of telling me to level up ... lol. Also I do have a 26(I won't level higher than 27 because I mostly harvest in cl and nek right now) full mastercrafted already and I could easily harvest and farm 2 or 3 plat a day... if I wanted. I am just tired of doing that and think  at LOW levels ... LOW ... there need not be so good gear. People are learning the game then, so why [Removed for Content] them off that early? I won't quit, I just wanted to say that it is not fair and not well done the way it is. This hasn't anything to do with soe's achievement system. I play this game since day one ... just not pvp. I said I am an EQII-pvp newb, not new to EQII as such. Ppl can still raid and do tradeskills and farm and whatever from 30-70. Those who want that can ... as someone just mentioned ... go to 30 in no time. You guys need to learn to read really. I want to do lowlevel pvp but don't want to have to level to 70 for that. I could and probably will have to ... I just think this is dumb. If lowlevel pvp was made better, then more ppl would do it and it would be better quality and certainly more fun. Right now we are just running from all who have destroyer and higher title and pick on those who have none or just hunter or slayer. This is a pretty weak tactic and not really fun imho. I want a good fight, not just kill fast or/and run. I am usually not someone who runs from a fight, I rather fight to the last breath so to speak. But soe doesn't leave newbs alot of choice. We can either get a title by acting like cowardly bullies or we get none. That's what pisses me off. I don't enjoy killing ppl who just go harvesting or do not actively pvp. But oh well if that's the way it has to be then so be it. Sorry that I suggested to improve the game I pay for playing. Have a good one.</p></blockquote><p>Maybe I am not understanding where you are coming from.</p><p>Every time you kill someone, you yourself are adding to the "problem". It seems to me, you want a game where everyone gets in a line and has very constructed and fair 1v1 fights. I really dont understand what you are asking.</p><p>Seriously tho, who here has trouble PvPing at the low tiers? Certainly not me... does that mean I dont die? [Removed for Content] no... I die, but that is PART of this game. If you arnt dying, if you arnt getting chased or have to avoid the x3 raids, what are we even playing for? Mike Tysons Punchout sounds more like your game.. </p>

DngrMou
03-14-2007, 02:37 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>Knightwish wrote: You basically have 2 options, gear up, or level up. </blockquote> Well...there's also the third option....delete the toon.  It's what I did.  It was not just frustrating trying to level lowbie, it was gamebreaking.  I don't know what the population numbers on PvP servers look like anymore, but I'd suspect they're not too healthy.  The attitudes of some in this thread are'nt helping that, either.

Greenion
03-14-2007, 02:44 PM
<p><span style="color: #339900">roll on venekor...get to ten, exile, and i'll give you all the help you need...however...you must first get over letting dieing to obviously stacked odds in a single quick battle, no matter how many of that type you experience bothering you in the least.</span></p><p><span style="color: #339900">i almost left rallos zek in eqlive...rolled on firona vie...as a woody...at lvl 7 instead of getting ganked a dark elf came outa nowhere and started healing me as i grinded...nice of her...but...</span></p><p><span style="color: #339900">i couldnt handle it...i went back to rz where things made some sense and never left again.</span></p><p><span style="color: #339900">edit> you bring me the t2 or t3 (t4 coming soon) rares and ill set you up...where you go from there is all up to you...</span></p><p><span style="color: #339900">edit2> think you cant get the rares yourself? bahz, i'll show you where and how...and when.</span></p>

Jaggid
03-14-2007, 03:04 PM
<cite>Knightwish wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Hello <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I am relatively new to EQII pvp so I don't know much but 2 weeks were enough to realize that there are major exploits in EQII. I know that EQII was originally not meant for PvP (strange though since you should think after EQ SOE could have guessed that at some point people will request PvP). So I can ignore the fact that the enviroment is not PvP friendly. But what the hell is SOE thinking to allow such exploits? I don't know what is worse, the way grouping is handled or the importance of gear in low levels (twinking). I can even tolerate the fact that the classes are completely unbalanced in pvp, because I would just start a class that is better at pvp.</p><p>I'll adress the grouping first. How can it be that we run into a group 20 levels above us ... all but one who is in our range ... in CL and we are good as dead without a chance ??? Because the one of our level would disband, so that he can attack us. And as soon as we are in fight the 20 level highers join his group and kill us with no problem. I cannot even start to understand why something like this is even possible. I don't even blame the guys who do this. It's SOE's job to make sure such exploits don't exist. It cannot be that group-invites are part of pvp tactics, that's [I cannot control my vocabulary]. During a pvp encounter it shouldn't be possible to join groups or pick up people into your group. Only before and after the encounter. I don't even know why I have to mention this here, one year after PvP servers started.</p><p>Second thing, twinking. Fully twinked characters, especially if they are a strong pvp class, are basically invulnerable. Why is that necessary? Why do toons in t1 or t2 need legendary or fabled items or skills/spells? That means I have to have around 100 plat to get a fair chance in lowlevel pvp? That would mean lowlevel pvp is only an option for people who play like forever and have lots of plat or buy it at ebay. Come on, that's not fair and completely unnessesary. There need not be stuff better than treasured in t2(level 10-19) and no spells better than adept I. Also there need not be stuff better than legendary/mastercrafted in t3(20/22-29/31). Also there need not be horses in this level. I'm pretty sure if you remove fabled from the first 3 tiers the quality of pvp and the game in general will rise. When I buy the game I don't want to spend 3 month farming before I have enough cash to get the gear I need to pvp, that's [I cannot control my vocabulary].</p><p>A good pvp is about player skill, not just gear. And that complete idiots can get any title just because they can afford to buy the best gear, and can beat me anytime no matter what tactics I try just pisses me off. My friends and I have played many pvp games, and we are pretty good at it. And I gave EQII PvP a chance because I was told it was balanced. But thé PvP we expecienced in the past 2 weeks was complete batsht. It was developed by people who either have no clue or just don't care about pvp at all. I wonder why SOE even started PvP servers, just to get a few more bucks out of people who have no skill but like to think they do? Come on. This game can have good pvp if SOE just start to care already.</p><p>To make this critizism a constructive one here is my idea: Create a new pvp server. On the new server remove all but the treasured items from t1 and t2 also all spells and skills higher than adept I. Remove all fabled and master Is from t3. Set level restriction for horses to level 30 (paladins can keep theirs for god's sake - I don't like paladins but it is one of their skills so they should keep it). Also you should really improve the guards or remove them completely. If they can be pulled away that easy then they just give people a wrong idea of a safety that doesn't really exist. And give them see invis. That's not asked too much for a guard or is it? Just give them an additional mage type npc who can see invis and buff them. (i.e. at xroads). Don't allow group invites/disbands during a pvp encounter. Don't allow that a toon 20 levels higher than another can attack him in a 4 level range pvp zone like CL. Not even if grouped. If a lvl 17 groups with 5 lvl 35s it's his own problem if they can't help him. I see no reason to group like this other than to exploit.</p></blockquote>Fix the game is a the easy part, what you need to ask is, why would someone use the exploits when the come to the PvP servers for more of a challenge?  Cheating/exploiting is the easy button, we as gamers should always take the tougher roads to make the competition better.

Wytie
03-14-2007, 03:32 PM
[email protected] Bayle wrote: <blockquote>[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>Knightwish wrote: You basically have 2 options, gear up, or level up. </blockquote> Well...there's also the third option....delete the toon.  It's what I did.  It was not just frustrating trying to level lowbie, it was gamebreaking.  I don't know what the population numbers on PvP servers look like anymore, but I'd suspect they're not too healthy.  The attitudes of some in this thread are'nt helping that, either.</blockquote><p> Well you just wernt cut out for pvp, IMO T2 pvp is sorta the trial run for your pvp life. you either get over getting ganked or get smart and learn how to lessn that chance because nomatter what there is allways gona be a group or raid that bigger faster and stronger than you, and you know what?? So what big deal, its just a game and those folks are haveing fun doing what they do. Sure we all get alittle frustrated from time to time but thats when you step back chill do something different craft wak off or what ever. The way i see if you can survive with your pride after T2 then its all down hill from there.</p><p>too many people take dieing in pvp too personally, there are so many lagit ways to avoid getting rolled do like the rest of us and get smart cause that what pvp makes you become is smart, no that doesnt mean hide all the time but that also doesnt mean walk out in the middle of nowhere with 10 plat on you and expect since your level 10 you get a free pass... not hardly</p><p>sorry bud but you just didnt have what it take to be a EQ2 pvp'r</p><p>Even in T7 if i go out solo i expect at some point in time to get molested by a group of what ever but thats when you learn how to use the tools given to you, to pick and choose your battles even then you can't thelp but die, but oh well... revive and move on, <b><i>away from where you were</i></b> cause if your, that dumb to go back to the same spot, where the same group that just wiped you was, you WILL DIE AGAIN. no its not griefing it called they own that area and you dont so unless you get some help dont show your face around or they will gladdy stomp in back into the dirt from which you came from, and rightfully so its war.  </p>

Jaggid
03-14-2007, 03:38 PM
[email protected] Bayle wrote: <blockquote>[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>Knightwish wrote: You basically have 2 options, gear up, or level up. </blockquote> Well...there's also the third option....delete the toon.  It's what I did.  It was not just frustrating trying to level lowbie, it was gamebreaking.  I don't know what the population numbers on PvP servers look like anymore, but I'd suspect they're not too healthy.  The attitudes of some in this thread are'nt helping that, either.</blockquote>The exploiting shouldn't have or have very little to do with lvl'ing.  I have solo'ed most of my 54 lvl's.  The only time these exploits are an issue are when I am near the TS Griff in Ant or there heavy PvP bubbles.  Other than that, it reallys doesn't have much effect.

Norrsken
03-14-2007, 04:25 PM
[email protected] Bayle wrote: <blockquote>[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>Knightwish wrote: You basically have 2 options, gear up, or level up. </blockquote> Well...there's also the third option....delete the toon.  It's what I did.  It was not just frustrating trying to level lowbie, it was gamebreaking.  I don't know what the population numbers on PvP servers look like anymore, but I'd suspect they're not too healthy.  The attitudes of some in this thread are'nt helping that, either.</blockquote>Then I think life on an open world pvp would not suit you, and you are better of not playing on a pvp server. Its a game, and as such, it would be rather bad an entertainment if you spend your time being frustrated. Nagafens population is quite alright, the euro servers are suffering a bit though.

Ameniel
03-14-2007, 06:13 PM
<cite>Knightwish wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000">A good pvp is about player skill, not just gear.</span> And that complete idiots can get any title just because they can afford to buy the best gear, and can beat me anytime no matter what tactics I try just pisses me off. My friends and I have played many pvp games, and we are pretty good at it. And I gave EQII PvP a chance because I was told it was balanced. But thé PvP we expecienced in the past 2 weeks was complete batsht. It was developed by people who either have no clue or just don't care about pvp at all. I wonder why SOE even started PvP servers, just to get a few more bucks out of people who have no skill but like to think they do? Come on. This game can have good pvp if SOE just start to care already.</p></blockquote><p> EQ2 pvp is not about any type of 'skill', it is about gear & pve-type grinding. I understand what type of pvp game you are looking for, and unfortunately it is not eq2. Eq2 is not imo really a pvp game, its a pvp enabled pve game. There's a difference. Games like Warhammer are pvp games. Where the focus of the game is pvp. </p><p>If you decide to continue with eq2 you have to get used to that this game requires pve grinding for the most part to be successful, which even though I have gotten used to is still annoying. Most of it is not too bad, far as harvesting/crafting...it is annoying, but as others in this thread have pointed out, easily doable. </p><p>But I undertsand very well the feeling when you just want to pvp, and not have to feel like youre forced to pve grind to keep up(farming gear, tradeskilling, raiding etc...all things I can't stand doing) and be competitive. Unfortunately this game does not cater to pvpers, it caters to powergamers.  </p>

Spider
03-14-2007, 08:38 PM
<p>well bro teh grouping bug/exploit is a recurrign issue that gets fixed then broken again and again  unfortunately currently its broken again </p><p>the twinkign thing well while it sux horribly and its completely unbalanced  some loosers will still do it because it makes them feel like there worthless little lives are accualy  less pathetic than they realy are but eh  w/e simple soloution is to grind to the 20's as fast as possible and igrnore pvp till at least mid tier 3  where while not completely balanced its a LOT better off than teir 1 and 2 </p>

Armondpb
03-16-2007, 06:36 AM
<p>wow...LOL...</p><p> Okay... i came to pvp from a diffrent sever not to long ago and LOVE IT..when i first started I came over with a friend and NO ONE ... i repeat NO ONE helped us out but each other. And it was hella hard.</p><p>If you are upset with how things are run at low lvl pvp go play PVE... its -really- not that hard to get twinked once you know what you're doing... first, get someone to make you okay armor for now... havfest your [Removed for Content] off for rares...LOCK your xp and do quests to gain AA and make sure you read your AA lines so you know where you are putting them...after that, havfest some more...pick up crafting. 10-15 you can get some really nice armor form the Ruins. </p><p>what I did was I made my main (Bobangles) then I made a few alts to made food and stuff....once you get the hang over it, you'll like it.. but IMO pvp at low lvl's is a BLAST.</p>

Ammem
03-16-2007, 09:52 AM
<cite>Armondpb wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>wow...LOL...</p><p> Okay... i came to pvp from a diffrent sever not to long ago and LOVE IT..when i first started I came over with a friend and NO ONE ... i repeat NO ONE helped us out but each other. And it was hella hard.</p><p>If you are upset with how things are run at low lvl pvp go play PVE... its -really- not that hard to get twinked once you know what you're doing... first, get someone to make you okay armor for now... havfest your [I cannot control my vocabulary] off for rares...LOCK your xp and do quests to gain AA and make sure you read your AA lines so you know where you are putting them...after that, havfest some more...pick up crafting. 10-15 you can get some really nice armor form the Ruins. </p><p>what I did was I made my main (Bobangles) then I made a few alts to made food and stuff....once you get the hang over it, you'll like it.. but IMO pvp at low lvl's is a BLAST.</p></blockquote>It sure is!!! Nothing better than going to CL seeing a raid of Qs and getting a raid of Freeps and then having a huge manhunt. Also as you stated not that hard to twink out, especially if you're a class that can solo very well. Run through WC get bunch of valuable loot and sell it.

Bozidar
03-16-2007, 10:17 AM
<cite>Ameniel wrote:</cite><blockquote>Knightwish wrote: <p>EQ2 pvp is not about any type of 'skill', it is about gear & pve-type grinding. </p></blockquote> Skill most definately plays a part, and in many many ways.

Radigazt
03-16-2007, 10:43 AM
<p>Does gear play a role?  Sure, just like it does in PvE.  Honestly, how many people solo orange triple ups in Treasured gear?  But, it's possible with top notch gear.  Real live people behind the controls of an orange con character that hits almost as hard as that triple up and is clever enough to be much harder to kill ... yeah, you're gonna need top notch gear to have a prayer against him.  Show me where in EQ2 that gear isn't important?  The difference is that in PvE you can choose to fight greens and blues, and if you're still underpowered, non-heroics.  In PvP, think of everything as a triple up heroic mob.  The green ones are green conned triple up heroic mobs.  Think of your aggro range to be one-half of the zone size.  If  you're not in stealth or invis, then you'll aggro  half the zone.  If you're in stealth or invis, you're still gonna aggro a lot of mobs, most of which will be orange conned triple ups or groups of orange connec triple ups ... and you'll aggro them from half a zone away.  If you're in the dead center of the zone, you'll aggro the entire zone.  If you're foolish enough to travel NOT in stealth ... you'll aggro the entire zone.  Will you die under those constraints?  Hell yes!  So, next time you get frustrated at PvP, just remember, it's as if you're in a PvE zone of nothing but triple ups, aggro range is 10,000 meters, and about 2/3 of the mobs see stealth and see invis.  Then, think again how your gear shouldn't matter.  </p><p>As for Skill?  Any yahoo that thinks skill doesn't matter is very naive.  Sure,  you have some llamas that roll a Shadowknight, twink him out to the hilt, then log him on, Harm Touch one poor sap for infamy (usually by a zone line so they can stay in "immunity" forever until they find their victim), then camp to another toon for 15 minutes to let Harm Touch recharge.  I agree, those people don't require much skill.  Then there's the llamas that sit by the zone lines of the noob zones looking for green cons engaged in PvE or who just leveled up to 10 and they gank them and zone hop away from everyone else ... that doesn't take any risk either, so not much skill needed there.  But, the vast majority of PvP requires a LOT of skill.  These days, the majority of PvP is twink v. twink and to be more precise, twink group v. twink group.  Yeah, without skill you'll get rolled repeatedly.  Remember, these aren't stupid AI's there that just sit there happily until you get the first shot.  </p>

DngrMou
03-16-2007, 10:43 AM
<cite>Wytie wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>sorry bud but you just didnt have what it take to be a EQ2 pvp'r</p></blockquote> You are completely correct.  I do not have what it 'takes' to try to twink out a toon, level lock him, then spend who knows how long endlessly ganking noobs, who could'nt hit me even if I sat there and did nothing, in order to build up this faction.

CresentBlade
03-16-2007, 06:45 PM
<cite>Radigazt wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Does gear play a role?  Sure, just like it does in PvE.  Honestly, how many people solo orange triple ups in Treasured gear?  But, it's possible with top notch gear.  Real live people behind the controls of an orange con character that hits almost as hard as that triple up and is clever enough to be much harder to kill ... yeah, you're gonna need top notch gear to have a prayer against him.  Show me where in EQ2 that gear isn't important?  The difference is that in PvE you can choose to fight greens and blues, and if you're still underpowered, non-heroics.  In PvP, think of everything as a triple up heroic mob.  The green ones are green conned triple up heroic mobs.  Think of your aggro range to be one-half of the zone size.  If  you're not in stealth or invis, then you'll aggro  half the zone.  If you're in stealth or invis, you're still gonna aggro a lot of mobs, most of which will be orange conned triple ups or groups of orange connec triple ups ... and you'll aggro them from half a zone away.  If you're in the dead center of the zone, you'll aggro the entire zone.  If you're foolish enough to travel NOT in stealth ... you'll aggro the entire zone.  Will you die under those constraints?  Hell yes!  So, next time you get frustrated at PvP, just remember, it's as if you're in a PvE zone of nothing but triple ups, aggro range is 10,000 meters, and about 2/3 of the mobs see stealth and see invis.  Then, think again how your gear shouldn't matter.  </p><p>As for Skill?  Any yahoo that thinks skill doesn't matter is very naive.  Sure,  you have some llamas that roll a Shadowknight, twink him out to the hilt, then log him on, Harm Touch one poor sap for infamy (usually by a zone line so they can stay in "immunity" forever until they find their victim), then camp to another toon for 15 minutes to let Harm Touch recharge.  I agree, those people don't require much skill.  Then there's the llamas that sit by the zone lines of the noob zones looking for green cons engaged in PvE or who just leveled up to 10 and they gank them and zone hop away from everyone else ... that doesn't take any risk either, so not much skill needed there.  But, the vast majority of PvP requires a LOT of skill.  These days, the majority of PvP is twink v. twink and to be more precise, twink group v. twink group.  Yeah, without skill you'll get rolled repeatedly.  Remember, these aren't stupid AI's there that just sit there happily until you get the first shot.  </p></blockquote>/Agree

Oneira
03-17-2007, 01:04 PM
<cite>Radigazt wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Does gear play a role?  Sure, just like it does in PvE.  Honestly, how many people solo orange triple ups in Treasured gear?  But, it's possible with top notch gear.  Real live people behind the controls of an orange con character that hits almost as hard as that triple up and is clever enough to be much harder to kill ... yeah, you're gonna need top notch gear to have a prayer against him.  Show me where in EQ2 that gear isn't important?  The difference is that in PvE you can choose to fight greens and blues, and if you're still underpowered, non-heroics.  In PvP, think of everything as a triple up heroic mob.  The green ones are green conned triple up heroic mobs.  Think of your aggro range to be one-half of the zone size.  If  you're not in stealth or invis, then you'll aggro  half the zone.  If you're in stealth or invis, you're still gonna aggro a lot of mobs, most of which will be orange conned triple ups or groups of orange connec triple ups ... and you'll aggro them from half a zone away.  If you're in the dead center of the zone, you'll aggro the entire zone.  If you're foolish enough to travel NOT in stealth ... you'll aggro the entire zone.  Will you die under those constraints?  Hell yes!  So, next time you get frustrated at PvP, just remember, it's as if you're in a PvE zone of nothing but triple ups, aggro range is 10,000 meters, and about 2/3 of the mobs see stealth and see invis.  Then, think again how your gear shouldn't matter.  </p><p>As for Skill?  Any yahoo that thinks skill doesn't matter is very naive.  Sure,  you have some llamas that roll a Shadowknight, twink him out to the hilt, then log him on, Harm Touch one poor sap for infamy (usually by a zone line so they can stay in "immunity" forever until they find their victim), then camp to another toon for 15 minutes to let Harm Touch recharge.  I agree, those people don't require much skill.  Then there's the llamas that sit by the zone lines of the noob zones looking for green cons engaged in PvE or who just leveled up to 10 and they gank them and zone hop awa^^^y from everyone else ... that doesn't take any risk either, so not much skill needed there.  But, the vast majority of PvP requires a LOT of skill.  These days, the majority of PvP is twink v. twink and to be more precise, twink group v. twink group.  Yeah, without skill you'll get rolled repeatedly.  Remember, these aren't stupid AI's there that just sit there happily until you get the first shot.  </p></blockquote>This is not quite true.  If you are twinked out and the other player is not, then you are the ^^^ while the other poor slob is like a 2-down arrow flailing against you.  I know.  I am playing the twink game as well.   I have a 17 brigand that is relatively well equipped with adept IIIs in most things and MC armor and jewelry and MC or legendary weapons, and believe me, I can take down yellows and oranges relatively easily if they are not well equipped.  On the other hand, there are blue-cons out there who are SOOOOO twinked that they can take me down without too much difficulty. Skill matters, but it just doesn't matter as much as you think.  I'm no great player by a long shot, but with a basic knowledge of what to do my KvD is now about 185/30, and the only reason i have so many deaths is from the twinks i've fought.  Anyone who isn't in comparable gear to me just doesn't have a chance.  It's a combination of class and equipment.   Why do you think most of the teens twinks are a) rogues and b) druids?  A well-twinked, well AA'd druid at those levels just owns everybody that's why.  Nobody can beat them, nobody.  It take a helluva lot of time to get what you need to twink yourself like that, unless you have a 70 toon with platinum growing out of his ears.  I can understand ppl's frustration very well.  PvP means them getting completely steamrolled by twinks. 

Oneira
03-17-2007, 01:06 PM
<cite>Oneira wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Radigazt wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Does gear play a role?  Sure, just like it does in PvE.  Honestly, how many people solo orange triple ups in Treasured gear?  But, it's possible with top notch gear.  Real live people behind the controls of an orange con character that hits almost as hard as that triple up and is clever enough to be much harder to kill ... yeah, you're gonna need top notch gear to have a prayer against him.  Show me where in EQ2 that gear isn't important?  The difference is that in PvE you can choose to fight greens and blues, and if you're still underpowered, non-heroics.  In PvP, think of everything as a triple up heroic mob.  The green ones are green conned triple up heroic mobs.  Think of your aggro range to be one-half of the zone size.  If  you're not in stealth or invis, then you'll aggro  half the zone.  If you're in stealth or invis, you're still gonna aggro a lot of mobs, most of which will be orange conned triple ups or groups of orange connec triple ups ... and you'll aggro them from half a zone away.  If you're in the dead center of the zone, you'll aggro the entire zone.  If you're foolish enough to travel NOT in stealth ... you'll aggro the entire zone.  Will you die under those constraints?  Hell yes!  So, next time you get frustrated at PvP, just remember, it's as if you're in a PvE zone of nothing but triple ups, aggro range is 10,000 meters, and about 2/3 of the mobs see stealth and see invis.  Then, think again how your gear shouldn't matter.  </p><p>As for Skill?  Any yahoo that thinks skill doesn't matter is very naive.  Sure,  you have some llamas that roll a Shadowknight, twink him out to the hilt, then log him on, Harm Touch one poor sap for infamy (usually by a zone line so they can stay in "immunity" forever until they find their victim), then camp to another toon for 15 minutes to let Harm Touch recharge.  I agree, those people don't require much skill.  Then there's the llamas that sit by the zone lines of the noob zones looking for green cons engaged in PvE or who just leveled up to 10 and they gank them and zone hop awa^^^y from everyone else ... that doesn't take any risk either, so not much skill needed there.  But, the vast majority of PvP requires a LOT of skill.  These days, the majority of PvP is twink v. twink and to be more precise, twink group v. twink group.  Yeah, without skill you'll get rolled repeatedly.  Remember, these aren't stupid AI's there that just sit there happily until you get the first shot.  </p></blockquote>This is not quite true.  If you are twinked out and the other player is not, then you are the ^^^ while the other poor slob is like a 2-down arrow flailing against you.  I know.  I am playing the twink game as well.   I have a 17 brigand that is relatively well equipped with adept IIIs in most things and MC armor and jewelry and MC or legendary weapons, and believe me, I can take down yellows and oranges relatively easily if they are not well equipped.  On the other hand, there are blue-cons out there who are SOOOOO twinked that they can take me down without too much difficulty. Skill matters, but it just doesn't matter as much as you think.  I'm no great player by a long shot, but with a basic knowledge of what to do my KvD is now about 185/30, and the only reason i have so many deaths is from the twinks i've fought.  Anyone who isn't in comparable gear to me just doesn't have a chance.  It's a combination of class and equipment.   Why do you think most of the teens twinks are a) rogues and b) druids, with a few brawlers thrown into the mix?  A well-twinked, well AA'd druid at those levels just owns everybody that's why.  Nobody can beat them, nobody.  It take a helluva lot of time to get what you need to twink yourself like that, unless you have a 70 toon with platinum growing out of his ears.  I can understand ppl's frustration very well.  PvP means them getting completely steamrolled by twinks.  </blockquote>

Radigazt
03-17-2007, 01:22 PM
<cite>Oneira wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Radigazt wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Does gear play a role?  Sure, just like it does in PvE.  ... Will you die under those constraints?  Hell yes!  So, next time you get frustrated at PvP, just remember, it's as if you're in a PvE zone of nothing but triple ups, aggro range is 10,000 meters, and about 2/3 of the mobs see stealth and see invis.  Then, think again how your gear shouldn't matter.  </p><p>As for Skill?  Any yahoo that thinks skill doesn't matter is very naive.  ... These days, the majority of PvP is twink v. twink and to be more precise, twink group v. twink group.  Yeah, without skill you'll get rolled repeatedly.  Remember, these aren't stupid AI's there that just sit there happily until you get the first shot.  </p></blockquote>This is not quite true.  If you are twinked out and the other player is not, then you are the ^^^ while the other poor slob is like a 2-down arrow flailing against you.  ... Skill matters, but it just doesn't matter as much as you think.  It take a helluva lot of time to get what you need to twink yourself like that, unless you have a 70 toon with platinum growing out of his ears.  I can understand ppl's frustration very well.  PvP means them getting completely steamrolled by twinks.  </blockquote><p> OK, I've paired down both of our posts to make this post a more managable size, leaving only the important bits.  I don't think you're disagreeing with me at all ... wht I said is that "next time you get frustrated at PvP ..." so obviously when you're way twinked out and orange conned facing a green con untwinked engaged with a mob ... yeah that should be an easy fight.  The thrust of my post was to explain that if he wants to join a PvP server, almost all of the adversaries he is likely to find are going to be hella challenges at his level, because twinks are like triple ups and groups of twinks are like groups of triple ups.  And most importantly, players are far more clever and unpredictable than AI will ever be.  And we're social too, because if we see a fight, we run immediately there to engage, so our aggro range is huge.  My point is that if he goes out to fight groups of yellow and orange triple ups in treasured gear, he's bound to lose.  On a PvE server he wouldn't do that, so what on earth makes him think he can do it on a PvP server?  </p><p>As I mentioned towards the end, "the majority of PvP is twink v. twink and to be more precise, twink group v. twink group."  This means that you aren't going to be able to compete very well unless you're twinked.  If you want a non-loot game where twinking doesn't matter, I highly recommend City of Heros/City of Villains ... it's a great lootless game.  But to want EQ2 to turn it's back to loot is like asking First Person Shooters to eliminate weapons ... it's just not going to happen.  So, skill matters a LOT more in the twink group v. twink group than it does against untwinked foes ... no doubt, but there I don't even count untwinked opponents unless they con red.  I don't go out looking for noobs to gank, I look to gank the gankers, and that's where skill does play in very strongly.  Opposing groups often outnumber us and usually have as good gear, but our skill allows us to have the same classes, gear, and usually fewer numbers and lower levels, yet still win.  Teamwork, individual skill, yeah those things are at a premium when you go looking to gank the gankers like I do.  </p><p>The learning curve is steep and the preparation curve is steep, but you don't need a level 70 to twink out, that's just not the case.  One good tradeskiller in the 30's is enough, and as he levels up he gets more customers.  Having someone with high harvesting skills is enough, then just harvest for rares, sell the ones you don't need and buy what you do need.  It takes about 20 plat for a twink that has excellent gear and you can do it in less than that at most tiers.  You could make a very competitive twink for 7 plat easily.  No, it might not have the very best, and no it might not have adornments, but you could fully mastercraft and Adept3/Fable your spells or combat arts.  </p>

Forsaken Falc
03-18-2007, 11:55 AM
<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Knightwish wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Well when I started 2 weeks ago I thought I need to level lock, I am a 15 assi btw and friends are 15 sk and 15 warden which is imho a pretty good pvp setup. The sk is fully mastercrafted but I am not yet. I was told we had to do that to have a chance in lowlevel pvp. </p><p> And if we 3 get owned by a single 17er without being able to dmg him much then this whole thing doesn't make a lot of sense. </p></blockquote><p> So much of it just... DEPENDS.</p><p>Depends on your choices, and your gear, and your spells.</p><p>I might suggest that you quickly drop the assassin, and get a brigand.  Assassins are nice, but there are way more scouts out there than clothies, and as a brigand you can track other scouts who're stealthed.   As a brigand you can hide your group from anyone who's not a swashy (or a lvl 20 with a totem).  Brigands can take much more of a beating than a sin, and in a small team that's a good thing.</p><p>I have an assassin, i have 2.. but they're not <i>great</i> for small team low lvl pvp.  Make a brig, trust me.</p><p>As for getting owned by a single 17.. chances are it was a warden, and chances are they used a god power.  If there are three of you at 15th level, with a healer, in master crafted and i PRAY with Adept III's.. then you should never die to a lvl 17.</p></blockquote><p> lol 1st person to refer assassins as a "Sin not a "[Removed for Content]" /salute</p><p>Grimwell .... ~.~ blocking the word Azz with S's instead of a Z is realy lame.</p>

Cocytus
03-20-2007, 02:37 AM
I like low level PVP myself. What I don't like is writing that isn't spaced out or fluid. Sorry, I couldn't read all of that :/

Norrsken
03-20-2007, 06:19 AM
Forsaken Falcon wrote: <blockquote><cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Knightwish wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Well when I started 2 weeks ago I thought I need to level lock, I am a 15 assi btw and friends are 15 sk and 15 warden which is imho a pretty good pvp setup. The sk is fully mastercrafted but I am not yet. I was told we had to do that to have a chance in lowlevel pvp. </p><p> And if we 3 get owned by a single 17er without being able to dmg him much then this whole thing doesn't make a lot of sense. </p></blockquote><p> So much of it just... DEPENDS.</p><p>Depends on your choices, and your gear, and your spells.</p><p>I might suggest that you quickly drop the assassin, and get a brigand.  Assassins are nice, but there are way more scouts out there than clothies, and as a brigand you can track other scouts who're stealthed.   As a brigand you can hide your group from anyone who's not a swashy (or a lvl 20 with a totem).  Brigands can take much more of a beating than a sin, and in a small team that's a good thing.</p><p>I have an assassin, i have 2.. but they're not <i>great</i> for small team low lvl pvp.  Make a brig, trust me.</p><p>As for getting owned by a single 17.. chances are it was a warden, and chances are they used a god power.  If there are three of you at 15th level, with a healer, in master crafted and i PRAY with Adept III's.. then you should never die to a lvl 17.</p></blockquote><p> lol 1st person to refer assassins as a "Sin not a "[I cannot control my vocabulary]" /salute</p><p>Grimwell .... ~.~ blocking the word Azz with S's instead of a Z is realy lame.</p></blockquote>asn works very well too. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />