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View Full Version : Healer in Bottle ...Gotta Go


KannaWhoopass
03-12-2007, 01:44 PM
<p>I have some time at work so im going to write about something driving me nuts.</p><p>Cures in a bottle. </p><p>If I had my way I would take them out of the game or give them a heafty beating with a nerf bat. </p><p>The fact that some alchemists would take an income hit doesn't bother me in the least. </p><p>And now to why. </p><p>I am a warden. </p><p>What separates me from the other classes is that </p><ul><li>1) I heal - with strong heal over time . </li><li>2) I root - I have 2 roots and a snare. </li><li>3) I have higher than average dps in most cases for a priest class. (not that high)</li></ul><p>My beef is this. </p><p>There was a time when many people were upset that healers could heal and not be forced into combat. I didn't have a huge problem with it. I'm a healer . I never killed a person from healing myself, I could force a draw which seemed priestly in a passive resist kind of way. Several scout classes went into convulsions over this because they couldn't kill a priest who didn't want to kill them back. Or at least it was challenging .. or required  (gasp) a partner .. an evil word among scout classes . </p><p>The nerf was put in and yes it was a nerf not adjustment or fix. So any action aside from nose picking on the part of the priest classes results in being put in combat. Fine I have learned to deal with it. Even though I still think it sucks. Because now even tho many classes can deal 70% of my health in damage in less than 4 seconds and kill me in 5-6 seconds. My only response is to stand still heal myself and be stuck in combat with a swashie or brigand  ranger ... who now only needs to do 25% of my health to kill me. </p><p>It would seem there should be a defense to a massive dps burst from these classes. One would assume that a druid classs would be able to counter these attacks. We do after all have the fastest casting heals. The Hot portion would seem to counter the dot portion of the dps, it would make sense. Because we have roots I would be a good defense to root our opponent and back away, heal and engage our opponent from a distance. Or in the case of a ranger, root then stand on top of him to limit his dps. Both would be viable .. but unfortunately not possible. Why .. because each of these classes carry around a pocket healer. Capable of remove my class bonus skills. Not only does this pocket healer heal or remove dots or remove roots and snares. The pocket healer doesn't even drop you into combat. Amazing a stack of these things can cost less than a boat ride to nek docks. And yet can cure better than I can. I wasted 20 + AA points in a cure line .. but I cant compete with a potion bottle.  </p><p>This drives me insane ... I will recount a few encounters I have had in the past week to highlight my annoyance with the current system. </p><p>I decided to level a tinker. It requires an ungodly amount of loams, so I have spent many hours harvesting lately. While harvesting it is not uncommon to find yourself fighting with others for nodes. So im harvesting away on fear tainted when along comes another of even level to harvest nodes. I see him before he sees me. I lead off with a root . It lands .. I start to attack ... before my first attack hits he has cured my root. You might think he would attack me at this point or run away. NOPE he continues to harvest the nodes. I continue to attack him as he harvests ... nuke -he is at 94% .... Dot .. he is at 80% ... small nuke 73% ... he finishes harvesting the node and runs in a large circle for a few seconds while his health ticks up ... in a few moments he is back at 90% ... and continues to harvest all of the nodes ... I root him again .... And snare him ... insta cures off him nuke him dot him .... He just continues to harvest ... im foaming at the mouth ... I cant stop him ... I cant kill him .. root him snare him ... slow him down ... after harvesting all of the nodes in the area ... with me chasing along behind him combat locked ... he makes his way to the could pad .. and flies away... To add insult to injury as he flies away .... A full group flies in and kills me while I'm standing near the pad combat locked with a opponent who just stole all my nodes ... and never engaged me .. and flew away. </p><p>Later that day I'm trying to spawn the fence. It says he is up in the enemy territory so I figure ill go try to kill him so I can spawn him. As I approach the fence I see an enemy using it. Perhaps he has gold on him ... bonus .. I attack ... he is a wizard he has good cold resists so several of my spells are being resisted .. he lands some big hits on me I heal them before I die .. it's a good fight his health is falling steadily and I have been in the red a few times. His health is orange and he starts to panic and turns and runs. I try to hit him with a root .. it lands... and is cured .. he keeps running ... I stop to land a dot ... resisted ... im out of range .... I cant catch up to him ..... we both end up out of combat. I sprint up to him cast a root .... It lands ... start to nuke... he cures it ... and at full speed runs away .. while I'm stuck in combat ... again ... you know he got  ran towards a friend ranger ...  they turned around ... and ran me down at full speed while I was combat locked ... and killed me .... The same guy who just refused to engage me ... cured my attack ran me down at full speed. </p><p>In SS im harvesting nodes im a high enough tinker that I have my see stealth glasses on so I see him coming. I put my normal hat on and start casting my HoTs on myself anticipating the attack ... and BOOM there it is ... critical for 3400 points .... Use both emergency heals ... triple shot   hits .. I hit my stun immunity so I can keep healing myself. Devitalizing arrow ... rain of arrows (or whatever that one is called) double shot ... .. my health has bounced into the red several time so far but I'm spamming heals on myself and staying alive ... not being stunned and pre healing myself has kept me alive. I have survived the best he could dish out ... now its my turn to attack ... Lead off with a root so I can close the distance and decrease his dps ... root lands ... I'm walking at a snails pace because of all of the snares on me .. I'm at full health so I pause to cast tranquility on myself ... it removes 2 of the dots on me and I cure the other 2 .. the ranger has cured his root and is moving backward away from me ... I land my first attack ....</p><p>Many of his timers have refreshed and my health again starts diving into orange.. back to spam healing myself .. once AGAIN I'm covered in dots and cant move faster than a snails pace..  my health is back up .. I hit him with a dot but RESISTED ... attack with nuke RESISTED ...try to root RESISTED ... health is low again healing myself. My only hope is to close the distance so I can attack him and not die because is stop healing myself. Im trying to root him but he cures them off himself as soon as they land .... I cant cure fast enough to keep his snares and slows off me while healing myself ... I don't have time to attack this guy .. and I cant close the distance.  Now I cant tell if he started with mental breach but in the course of the fight he has started using it... He is draining my power ...  This fight lasts over 60 seconds ... It ends with me out of power .. all buttons grey cause I  have no power .. during the fight I have used manastone twice .. the ewer of the undying and am out of power ... as an aside I have flowing thought 60 . </p><p>During the fight I was never able to close the distance to the ranger. His snares and slows can be applied faster than I can cure them off . I could take the time to cast 4 or 5 cures in a row to take them off at which point my health is in the orange or red .. heal myself .. but at this point the snares are back on ..  I should have won this fight !. I took everything he could throw at me. I could never root him ... 22 points in the root line as a warden and I cant root for more than 3 seconds ... I could never get close enough to him to stop healing myself and attack him ... It made me sick ... Even more so because I know if I were to get him to red health ... he would have snared me and ran away with 60% in combat speed.</p><p>As a warden the roots should STICK for a minimum period or time. </p><p>The warden AA line should increase the effective level of the root not its chance to be resisted. Who cares if the root lands when it is cured off in 2 seconds. If I put those points in the root line I should cast roots like I'm a level 90. if the potion cures 70 levels of hostile effects then he should use at least 2 of them  to remove the root. Also I have 2 roots I should be able to stack them for an effective 180 levels. Requiring 3 potions uses to remove them. </p><p>Potions should lock you in combat ... it the argument that said healers should be locked in combat .. so should potion users ... you just countered a combat action = you are in combat ....   Either that or bring back healers healing not putting them in combat.</p><p>Or be fair about it ... make MORE potions .. like potion of tracking ... lets me track .. potion of evac .. potion of slash immunity (grnts 10 seconds immunity to slash ) potion of arrow resistance... (10 second immunity to arrows) ... potions Nuke Yer Face .. usable by all classes except fighter and scout ... lets you nuke yer opponent without putting you in combat.   Potion of sanctuary .. 10 second immunity to all damage (roots the caster and prevents the caster from casting aggressive spells).  Potion of Sniper shot would be cool .. potion of 60% in combat run speed ,  potion Rift slam ....Now I won't wait for this to happen. I'm kidding .. sort of </p><p>But if a Warden ..the master of roots .. can't root anyone .. and the snare effects Don't stack and cant be maintained ...  Something is wrong.</p>

Bozidar
03-12-2007, 02:13 PM
<p>k, stopped reading after the ranger/wizard fence thing.. </p><p>You don't want to get rid of them, you just think they should put you in combat?</p><p>I can agree to that.  If my stupid healing spores put me into combat (which they still do) then a potion sure as hell should</p>

Killblade
03-12-2007, 02:18 PM
Bozidar wrote: <blockquote><p>I can agree to that.  If my stupid healing spores put me into combat (which they still do) then a potion sure as hell should</p></blockquote><p> While I agree that spores putting you into combat is BS<my fury was a warden till 67> ... I thought I'd let you know that healer cures do not put you into combat.... just the same as cure potions do not put you into combat. However... if you pop a direct or heal over time potion... it will pull you into combat... so I'm not really sure what you're asking for. Do you want all cures to bring you into combat as well? Dont you think that will make rooting classes ungodly? Hmm..</p>

tass
03-12-2007, 02:18 PM
I thought with that change they made it to that any use of a healing or warding device would put u into combat. At least it should of been put in. Maybe it was some kind of a screw up that happened in the update.

Greenion
03-12-2007, 02:31 PM
<p>You don't want to get rid of them, you just think they should put you in combat?</p><p>I can agree to that. </p><p><span style="color: #339900">just like any other action that counter an offensive action taken against a player, potions that "undo" anything that another opposing player has done to you should put you in combat with the player that did to you what you conteracted with said potion.</span></p><p><span style="color: #339900">i think i said that right...basicly its supposed to agree with the dood i quoted.</span></p>

Killque
03-12-2007, 02:34 PM
<p>Welcome to PvP.</p><p>Haha you think you have it hard, try PvPing solo with a Guardian with 0 run speed.</p><p> Seriously, you need to quit everquest or something...everything you explained was preventable, and the reason you died both times was due to your own lack of understanding.</p>

Merander
03-12-2007, 03:09 PM
<p>Ya welcome to PvP.  this is the reason eq2 is dying and eq2 pvp is dead. An imbalance comes along and as long as it benefits you or your fav class your good with it. Someone comes along and points it out and its "welcome to pvp". Screw you and your type. Too many games where this isn't a problem, too many games coming out where this won't be a problem. Ya tell people they need to quit, you know what they are. Think SOE will keep your server open just so you and a couple of your friends can play. Next time post something constructive or dont post at all (yes i understand the irony).</p><p>SOE needs to find a way to fix the problems or eq2 will be just like starwars, 2 high level jedis dueling themselves in mos, and 3 others watching. Does that sound fun.</p><p>edit cause i got personal sorry. Killque wrote: </p><blockquote><p>Welcome to PvP.</p><p>Haha you think you have it hard, try PvPing solo with a Guardian with 0 run speed.</p><p> Seriously, you need to quit everquest or something...everything you explained was preventable, and the reason you died both times was due to your own lack of understanding.</p></blockquote>

Bozidar
03-12-2007, 03:20 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><blockquote>While I agree that spores putting you into combat is BS<my fury was a warden till 67> ... I thought I'd let you know that healer cures do not put you into combat.... just the same as cure potions do not put you into combat. However... if you pop a direct or heal over time potion... it will pull you into combat... so I'm not really sure what you're asking for. Do you want all cures to bring you into combat as well? Dont you think that will make rooting classes ungodly? Hmm..</blockquote></blockquote><p> I guess i'm saying yes.  Any cure or heal should put you into combat.</p>

Bozidar
03-12-2007, 03:21 PM
<cite>Greenion wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="color: #339900">just like any other action that counter an offensive action taken against a player, potions that "undo" anything that another opposing player has done to you should put you in combat with the player that did to you what you conteracted with said potion.</span></p><p><span style="color: #339900">i think i said that right...basicly its supposed to agree with the dood i quoted.</span></p></blockquote><p> LOL, you said it right and put it in a more vastly encompasing way <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Anything you do to counter what some other player has done to you (short of you just getting the hell outta there) should put you into combat with them.</p><p>IMO, this should include emotes.</p>

Spag
03-12-2007, 03:24 PM
<p>I definitely relate to what the OP is saying.  As a warden, everything you can do can be bought in bottle form, and your only CC abilties can be easily cured with a potion.</p><p>Classes that have no inate utility, but plenty of DPS can purchase these items to make up for the lack of these abilities, but we cannot purchase items that would give us Harmtouch, Decapitate, or Snipershot.  We cannot purchase items that would better defend against high damage attacks.  These things do not come in bottle form.  These things are the reason its easy for scout classes to solo pvp, why not, they have a priest in their bags.  There are resist potions, ward potions, healing potions, all of which can be used to counter, or resist a caster's attack, yet there is no mitigation, avoidance potions to allow casters to do the same with melee opponents.   There is no tracking potion, nor is there a potion to counter tracking, there is no in-combat stealth potion, and no potion to allow casters to cast on the run.</p><p>EQ2 pvp has always been slanted towards melee classes, moreso towards scouts.  These items either should not work in PvP, or in the very least, have a lesser effect while also putting the user into combat.</p><p>Of course they could add the aforementioned potions such as tracking or anti-tracking too, but then all the scouts would start crying because its their class defining ability, but are perfectly ok with being able to purchase other class defining abilties in bottle form.</p>

Cantilena
03-12-2007, 03:29 PM
<p>The recast time on the potions is such that they are not imbalancing at all.  I am 100% sure that the recast on your roots and dots are MUCH faster than the recast on the corresponding cure potions.  So sorry you might have to cast something twice to get your kill.</p><p>"Balancing" classes for PvP based completely on solo ability is a bad idea.  The livliness of this PvP game is in jeapardy for a combination of many reasons.  I do NOT believe that solo pvp balance is one of those reasons.  Everyone knows, or can do a little reading to discover what classes solo well, and which ones don't.  If someone chooses a crappy solo class, the solution is to re-roll, not to whine about how their class can't solo.  (I play a Guardian -- arguably the crappiest solo pvp class in the entire game.)</p>

Greenion
03-12-2007, 03:33 PM
<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Greenion wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="color: #339900">just like any other action that counter an offensive action taken against a player, potions that "undo" anything that another opposing player has done to you should put you in combat with the player that did to you what you conteracted with said potion.</span></p><p><span style="color: #339900">i think i said that right...basicly its supposed to agree with the dood i quoted.</span></p></blockquote><p> LOL, you said it right and put it in a more vastly encompasing way <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Anything you do to counter what some other player has done to you (short of you just getting the hell outta there) should put you into combat with them.</p><p>IMO, this should include emotes.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #339900">yep, imo movement should be the single countermeasure not putting a character that is being fairly attacked into combat mode if we are to have the seperate states of in and out of combat.</span></p><p><span style="color: #339900">which also does include spell effects resulting from protective spells cast prior to the attack that triggering defensive benificial procs as a result.</span></p><p><span style="color: #339900">i think on pvp servers, those who initiate pvp battles have a fair right to actually having one, at very least as much right as those who avoid said battle being fairly engaged in pvp combat....</span> </p>

Cantilena
03-12-2007, 03:33 PM
<cite>Spag wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I definitely relate to what the OP is saying.  As a warden, everything you can do can be bought in bottle form, and your only CC abilties can be easily cured with a potion.</p><p>Classes that have no inate utility, but plenty of DPS can purchase these items to make up for the lack of these abilities, but we cannot purchase items that would give us Harmtouch, Decapitate, or Snipershot.  We cannot purchase items that would better defend against high damage attacks.  These things do not come in bottle form.  These things are the reason its easy for scout classes to solo pvp, why not, they have a priest in their bags.  There are resist potions, ward potions, healing potions, all of which can be used to counter, or resist a caster's attack, yet there is no mitigation, avoidance potions to allow casters to do the same with melee opponents.   There is no tracking potion, nor is there a potion to counter tracking, there is no in-combat stealth potion, and no potion to allow casters to cast on the run.</p><p>EQ2 pvp has always been slanted towards melee classes, moreso towards scouts.  These items either should not work in PvP, or in the very least, have a lesser effect while also putting the user into combat.</p><p>Of course they could add the aforementioned potions such as tracking or anti-tracking too, but then all the scouts would start crying because its their class defining ability, but are perfectly ok with being able to purchase other class defining abilties in bottle form.</p></blockquote>Show me the potion that wards or cures anywhere NEAR the amount that a Priest can.  Now show me one that has a recast time that would allow said melee type to cast it more than once in a PvP fight.  Seriously.  Do the math.  Health * number of possible casts in say, 2 minutes.  To compare potions to the healing abilities of a priest is just stupid.

Killblade
03-12-2007, 03:48 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>Show me the potion that wards or cures anywhere NEAR the amount that a Priest can.  Now show me one that has a recast time that would allow said melee type to cast it more than once in a PvP fight.  Seriously.  Do the math.  Health * number of possible casts in say, 2 minutes.  To compare potions to the healing abilities of a priest is just stupid. </blockquote><p> I agree with this... Also, there are quite a few potions made with priests in mind... there arent any class specific potions as far as I know. </p><p>I think the OP's real frustrations aren't really potion related..... in my opinion... it wasn't all so broken until the new runspeed changes came in. :O! meh. </p>

Bozidar
03-12-2007, 03:50 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><p>I think the OP's real frustrations aren't really potion related..... </p></blockquote> His problems are cure related.  Cures should put you into combat, all of em.

Killblade
03-12-2007, 03:53 PM
Maybe... but where then does the line end? Should we just go into combat as soon as we are attacked? Should WASD put us into combat if someone engages us ??? Personally I have no problem either way.... but I dont think it's bad enough right now to need a fix.

Bozidar
03-12-2007, 03:56 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>Maybe... but where then does the line end? Should we just go into combat as soon as we are attacked? Should WASD put us into combat if someone engages us ??? Personally I have no problem either way.... but I dont think it's bad enough right now to need a fix. </blockquote><p> no, it was said clearly above.</p><p>If you do something to counter something another player has done, you're in combat.</p><p>If you heal yourself, cure yourself, use an aggro-reducing skill on them to drop target, hit an item ward, or /moon them.. you should go into combat.</p>

Killblade
03-12-2007, 04:04 PM
<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>Maybe... but where then does the line end? Should we just go into combat as soon as we are attacked? Should WASD put us into combat if someone engages us ??? Personally I have no problem either way.... but I dont think it's bad enough right now to need a fix. </blockquote><p> no, it was said clearly above.</p><p>If you do something to counter something another player has done, you're in combat.</p><p>If you heal yourself, cure yourself, use an aggro-reducing skill on them to drop target, hit an item ward, or /moon them.. you should go into combat.</p></blockquote>Alright, I agree with all of those... especially.... /moon!! Oh the emote spammers would suffer <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Can we get a spam hailing pet putting you into combat, also?

Killque
03-12-2007, 04:11 PM
<p>Im not aruging that cures should or should not put you in combat. It wouldnt effect me either way.</p><p>However, saying that you have essensially "Bottled" a class is down right rediculous!</p><p>Cure, heal, power potions are a "emergency" item at best. They are very limiting and only work once every 2 minutes. How many HP's can you heal in 2 minutes Mr Warden/Fury? at level 42 I can heal just over 350 every 2 minutes... and that locks out my heal AND my power potions for the duration.</p><p>If a cure or heal put me in combat it wouldnt matter either way to me, but what would be just completely retarted is "uncureable" roots. A healer/wiz etc lands a root on a meele and its game over. I play a dirge, yes, but I also play a Coercer, Guardian, Fury, Wizard....</p><p>Wizard is becoming the new "unstoppable" class. If you can figure out how to harness them correctly, there is nothing that can stop them. Give them a root that lasts for [Removed for Content] near 30 seconds and no way to cure it, and you make for a reeeealy fun PvP battle.... /roll.</p><p>The OP may have a valid complaint, but a healer class complaining about things just puts me in a mood. I have a Fury man, I know how powerful the Druids already are. Just because your "root" is cured is not going to cost you the fight, not even close... Learn to get out of combat.... Dont chase people if the situation is funny...</p><p>Prime example... </p><p>I was grouped with a friend in Lava. 2 Yellow zoned in.. and engaged. we killed them. They spawned and tried again. This time they hesitated a bit, made me feel they were waiting for someone.... Normally I would have defeneded my self/group if they tried again, but I told my friend not to engage again and just run. He argued and said he can take them... I watched as he engaged, down the ramp trounced 2 Dreadnaughts 7 levels above us that were waiting for the jump. I evaced and left him to die.... </p><p>Seems you ran to your death both times. Sometimes the chase isnt worth it.... as you obiously know what can happen..</p><p> Fool me once....shame on you. Fool me twice...</p>

Greenion
03-12-2007, 04:37 PM
<span style="color: #339900">i think the thread title portion : "healer in a bottle" was allusory only...not meant literally.</span>

KannaWhoopass
03-12-2007, 04:42 PM
<p>Yes they are potion related </p><p>Imagine in my examples </p><p>IF the guy harvesting my nodes was rooted ...and could either wait for my dps to break my root </p><p>or attack me ....</p><p>Or if the wizard i was fighting was rooted cured himself and was in combat ... he may not have made it to his friend before i could have killed him .. or he would have fought me . </p><p>Or when fighting the ranger .. if he didnt cure my root then gain immunity from roots perhaps i could have closed the distance and avoided 50% of his dps . </p><p>Healers cure and heal .... DPS classes dont .. In My mind if you sneak up on me and beat me down with dps  my bad i didn see ya comming. </p><p>If i see you and root you in place .. now you are feeling the pain of my class ... </p><p>Just as i feel helpless as  a swashie or a ranger or a brigand .. sometimes monks .. bruisers coercers and illusionists  .. grey out my spell bar and i sit and watch as my health drops to 0 ... so others can enjoy being rooted in place ... </p><p>The solution to the root exists .. group with a warden ..who took as AA ability root immunity.</p><p>By big bonus in PvP roots have ben made trivial but a 10 silver bottle. </p><p>Imagine if there was a bottle of 60% in combat runspeed ...  would rangers monks complain </p><p>you bet they would ... or better yet potion of safehouse .... so when a ranger opens up with sniper shot poof you are teleported away .... </p>

Fearborn
03-12-2007, 04:58 PM
<p>Don't really understand the post and disagree with a lot of what is said.</p><p>I have played several wardens at several different tiers.</p><p>The changes to Out of Combat healing were a fix, not a nerf.  I could stand with several guys beating on me, losing no power, just self-healing, whilst they were in combat and draining their power.  As soon as their power was low, I could switch into combat mode and whack them.  This was not fair.</p><p>I generally have few problems with scouts when handled right.</p><p>Unless your health is relatively small, I am surprised that you can lose 75% of it in the first 4 seconds???</p><p>Your talk of potions and their amazing abilities is simply not true.  The recast on potions is pretty huge, and their effects are really quite limited.  A heal potion is nice as an emergency aid, but can do very little in the face of a concerted attack.  The cures are OK, but again, due to recast limitations are not great.</p><p>I don't understand how on one hand you can complain about your dots being cured, and on the other hand complain about the ranger getting you snared and him covering you in dots. He resisted your Dot, resisted your nuke, resisted your root.  This does not sound normal. You simply cannot compare Warden heals to the heals from potions, there is no comparison.</p><p>I agree though, cures should put you into combat.</p>

Badaxe Ba
03-12-2007, 05:15 PM
There are potions that benefit healer classes as well.  Its not all one-sided.  And the 60s potions aren't as good as the 6g ones, but they are a finite resource with a long reuse timer.

KannaWhoopass
03-12-2007, 05:49 PM
<p>Recast on cure arcane = 15 seconds</p><p>yes as a warden you have 5000-6000 + ish hitpoits </p><p>when sniper shot hits for 3000 ..bow auto attach is 900 and tripple shot when 3 hit do 1500 + if quickshot procs ... with a poison hit </p><p>you just died .... </p><p>it is quite possible to die to 2 attacks ... snipershot + tripple shot </p><p>Also </p><p>the scouts snare .. the snares stack to the point of rooting you ... and can be applied again and again </p><p>Roots cant </p><p>cast one cure one and you have root imunity  ... warden roots last for what 30 or more seconds in pvp i cant remember </p><p>you just bought yerself root imunity till you can cast the potion again </p><p>Then factor in that you cast it once ... are not in combat ... and are now free to run away while a warden or whoever cast it is locked in combat .... 1 cure is enough </p>

Spag
03-12-2007, 06:14 PM
<cite>Killque wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Cure, heal, power potions are a "emergency" item at best. They are very limiting and only work once every 2 minutes. How many HP's can you heal in 2 minutes Mr Warden/Fury? at level 42 I can heal just over 350 every 2 minutes... and that locks out my heal AND my power potions for the duration.</p><p>If a cure or heal put me in combat it wouldnt matter either way to me, but what would be just completely retarted is "uncureable" roots. A healer/wiz etc lands a root on a meele and its game over. I play a dirge, yes, but I also play a Coercer, Guardian, Fury, Wizard....</p></blockquote><p>If a warden roots his target and his target then uses a potion to cure it, the immunity is still in place, and the immunity can be up to 80 seconds in duration.  You really dont need more than that, seeing as many scout classes can kill players inside of 10 seconds.</p><p>So to you an uncurable root is insane, guess what, it would not be incurable, you just would not be able to cure it.  Get a group.  </p><p>They could atleast reduce the immunity timer to the duration the root was on them before cured.  i.e. rooted for 5 seconds before cured, immunity for 5 seconds after cure.   Atleast this would allow it to be reapplied in a reasonable amount of time. </p><p>Most casters only defense is root, and to make it so easily curable is what is insane.  Once the scout cures, its lights out for the mage, seeing as a scout can fire off multiple high damage attacks in the couple of seconds it takes a mage to cast a spell, that is if they are not interrupted 5 times in the process.</p><p>If you recall its ridiculous CC immunities that give scouts that advantage in the first place.  They should not be able to both cure the root well short of its duration, and still have the benefit of the full immunity timer.</p>

Norrsken
03-12-2007, 06:50 PM
<cite>Spag wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Killque wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Cure, heal, power potions are a "emergency" item at best. They are very limiting and only work once every 2 minutes. How many HP's can you heal in 2 minutes Mr Warden/Fury? at level 42 I can heal just over 350 every 2 minutes... and that locks out my heal AND my power potions for the duration.</p><p>If a cure or heal put me in combat it wouldnt matter either way to me, but what would be just completely retarted is "uncureable" roots. A healer/wiz etc lands a root on a meele and its game over. I play a dirge, yes, but I also play a Coercer, Guardian, Fury, Wizard....</p></blockquote><p>If a warden roots his target and his target then uses a potion to cure it, the immunity is still in place, and the immunity can be up to 80 seconds in duration.  You really dont need more than that, seeing as many scout classes can kill players inside of 10 seconds.</p><p>So to you an uncurable root is insane, guess what, it would not be incurable, you just would not be able to cure it.  Get a group.  </p><p>They could atleast reduce the immunity timer to the duration the root was on them before cured.  i.e. rooted for 5 seconds before cured, immunity for 5 seconds after cure.   Atleast this would allow it to be reapplied in a reasonable amount of time. </p><p>Most casters only defense is root, and to make it so easily curable is what is insane.  Once the scout cures, its lights out for the mage, seeing as a scout can fire off multiple high damage attacks in the couple of seconds it takes a mage to cast a spell, that is if they are not interrupted 5 times in the process.</p><p>If you recall its ridiculous CC immunities that give scouts that advantage in the first place.  They should not be able to both cure the root well short of its duration, and still have the benefit of the full immunity timer.</p></blockquote> Sounds like the better fix would be to make the duration of immunity twice that of the actual root duration rather than twice of the MAX duration.

Killque
03-12-2007, 07:07 PM
<p>Potion recast time 2 Minutes</p><p>Root Immunity time? 30 seconds? 1 Minute? Do the math people.</p><p>Edit: or better yet, snare them first, and get them to waste the potion on that. Then root away and moon them from a distance, or whaveter it is that you do.</p><p>As far as your nodes go... if you have someone just dancing around you like that, you may want to rethink how your playing, or your gear or something... sounds just wrong to me.</p>

Eybietie
03-12-2007, 07:15 PM
no i think he is right. give healer another more powerfull eof aa line. they arent powerfull enough as it is now. my suggestion would be something like an ice comet unresistable and no mana loss. ah and it heals the priests for 20k . just to be sure. ah and run speed - make wardens run buff incombat 80%.

Kneemin
03-12-2007, 07:23 PM
If they put that in... im screwed when i get rooted and jumped by a group of OJ cons... my wizzy currently uses his arcane cure spell and gets away... although it would help make the root thing better for rooting classes it would also make ganking alot easier I would like to see the <u>POTIONS</u> have a longer cast time so that classes that can cure can do it more effectively than a potion to make it fair... I.E. a wizard should be able to use arcane cure and get out of there faster than you can drink a potion.

Myxzptlk
03-12-2007, 07:41 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>Show me the potion that wards or cures anywhere NEAR the amount that a Priest can.  Now show me one that has a recast time that would allow said melee type to cast it more than once in a PvP fight.  Seriously.  Do the math.  Health * number of possible casts in say, 2 minutes.  To compare potions to the healing abilities of a priest is just stupid. </blockquote><p>QFE </p><p>Healikng potions are ridiculously inadequate and rarely postpone the fight more than a hit or two, and that's if you're wearing plate. </p>

CresentBlade
03-12-2007, 10:20 PM
OK lol as if druids havent become powerful enough yet. You as a druid have no right to complain about anything at this point in time, your starting to sound just like a scout.

Killque
03-12-2007, 11:03 PM
<p>Just as a heads up, no matter what class you are, you should carry a stack of pretty much every potion possible. Nice thing about the classes who have abilities that the potions already provide is you dont need to restock your potions. That one extra heal, or that extra cure or extra power can be the difference between a win and a loss. Just because you can heal, doesnt mean you shouldnt carry potions.</p><p>But then again, this is obvious and I am sure you all already do...</p>

Eybietie
03-12-2007, 11:30 PM
<span style="color: #ffff00">how about giving the druids a group buff so they are immune to root and knockbacks.. oh wait - they allready got this...</span>

KannaWhoopass
03-13-2007, 04:14 AM
<p>Imunity to knockback .... yes some of them ..not all of them ...</p><p>Imunity to root ..yes ..but not the snare ..which make the root imunity useless as being slow'd by 65% is a root. </p><p>Unless i guess you have 60% run boost ..which we dont .. + 45% so -20% run at best ... snares stack ... </p><p>Ill make  a deal take the potions out ... you can have my root imunity and knock back </p><p>I paid 22 AA points for it .. you can get snare imunity in a bottle for 10 silver.</p><p>The fact is i cant root a person ..</p><p>And i cant kill a person who doesnt figth back ... All they need to do is cure the root then run in circles arround me in a wide arc .... </p><p>Heck they can harvest too while they are there .. </p><p>If fighter abilities were RESISTED ...INTERUPTED ...CURED ..RESISTED ...RESISTED ...IMMUNE .... im sure you might get it..</p><p>1/3 to 2/3 of my attacks are resisted ... and my roots are trivial.</p><p>I win pvp in groups and when my opponent thinks he is going to win ... if any class with a potion feels they might loose ..just turn and run away .... i cant stop you .  </p>

Norrsken
03-13-2007, 05:28 AM
<cite>KannaWhoopass wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Imunity to knockback .... yes some of them ..not all of them ...</p><p>Imunity to root ..yes ..but not the snare ..which make the root imunity useless as being slow'd by 65% is a root. </p><p>Unless i guess you have 60% run boost ..which we dont .. + 45% so -20% run at best ... snares stack ... </p><p>Ill make  a deal take the potions out ... you can have my root imunity and knock back </p><p>I paid 22 AA points for it .. you can get snare imunity in a bottle for 10 silver.</p><p>The fact is i cant root a person ..</p><p>And i cant kill a person who doesnt figth back ... All they need to do is cure the root then run in circles arround me in a wide arc .... </p><p>Heck they can harvest too while they are there .. </p><p>If fighter abilities were RESISTED ...INTERUPTED ...CURED ..RESISTED ...RESISTED ...IMMUNE .... im sure you might get it..</p><p>1/3 to 2/3 of my attacks are resisted ... and my roots are trivial.</p><p>I win pvp in groups and when my opponent thinks he is going to win ... if any class with a potion feels they might loose ..just turn and run away .... i cant stop you .  </p></blockquote>On my sk, that is quite accurate. My abilities are Resisted, interrupted, cured. I dont even have the damage output or heal capability of a fury, and no way of curing stuff without cure potions. So, you want to have all the plusses of roots/cures and none of the drawbacks? Nice one. Now, excuse me, I'll go laugh over here.

Kurindor_Mythecnea
03-13-2007, 06:49 AM
I think that's what has created the equilibrium here, the current status in this certain sect. The focus has always been to ensure no class can lock you into PvP, and that you ARE able to flee unless you encounter annihilating odds. What this is is simple Priest strategy. This is what Priests must typically be -- the passive, sustaining combatant. If you want to act overtly and succeed, be a Scout, and maybe, even a Mage. All everyone would want then is a healer in their PvP group. Here, lets just throw this root on Target A and evaluate his options: · Option 1.) Wait for the root to break while you potentially get your face DPSed the f*** off · Option 2.) Engage and commence beat-down reception while having lost your ability to use means of escape (runspeed, griffon use, lift use, whatever) · Option 3.) Stand and /cheer as you realize your chances are completely botched, knowing that your only method of recourse is within the hands of your opposition (oh...unless you're a Ranger, Monk, or Druid [or, in the cases of higher-tier PvP, a Swashy, Brigand, or Assassin {given the encounter being either a 1 vs 1 or 1 vs 2, otherwise -- if there's more than that many -- the former would remain the only victors; given, that "victory" would be with their escaping*). * Okay, fine, all Scouts and then Shadowknights, I guess, if they wanted to use an evac every time they got rooted against a larger form factor while roaming in the field. Anyways, besides the Scout segment, I think PvP is generally "okay"; although, I of course am not 100% sure of that and wouldn't know exact specifics, as my knowledge is limited to my communications with the general people (of EQ2). <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Cantilena
03-13-2007, 09:07 AM
<cite>KannaWhoopass wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Imunity to knockback .... yes some of them ..not all of them ...</p><p>Imunity to root ..yes ..but not the snare ..which make the root imunity useless as being slow'd by 65% is a root. </p><p>Unless i guess you have 60% run boost ..which we dont .. + 45% so -20% run at best ... snares stack ... </p><p>Ill make  a deal take the potions out ... you can have my root imunity and knock back </p><p>I paid 22 AA points for it .. you can get snare imunity in a bottle for 10 silver.</p><p>The fact is i cant root a person ..</p><p>And i cant kill a person who doesnt figth back ... All they need to do is cure the root then run in circles arround me in a wide arc .... </p><p>Heck they can harvest too while they are there .. </p><p>If fighter abilities were RESISTED ...INTERUPTED ...CURED ..RESISTED ...RESISTED ...IMMUNE .... im sure you might get it..</p><p>1/3 to 2/3 of my attacks are resisted ... and my roots are trivial.</p><p>I win pvp in groups and when my opponent thinks he is going to win ... if any class with a potion feels they might loose ..just turn and run away .... i cant stop you .  </p></blockquote><p>Waaaahhh!!!</p><p>Roll a Guardian.  I will GIVE you stacks of mastercrafted potions made by my Alchemist.  And you can show me how "easy" it is to escape from ANY class that can root or snare.  And when you are grouped, just like you said, they just run away.  Only now you REALLY can't stop them.  You can yell at them to ensure that they know who they are running from.</p><p>The problem is not that the potions give you one stinking chance to remedy your situation.  It's the stupid "immunity" crap.  They ruined Enchanters with that crap.</p><p>It's clear that the develpers WANT people to continually run away rather than fight.  Why else would they have taken out the zoning change?  They are still trying to compete with WoW for the whiney kiddie market, who don't have the attention span to play a game with real challenge, nor the [Removed for Content] to eat a death once in a while when it wasn't "fair" -- Waaaaahhhh!!! </p>

Mildavyn
03-13-2007, 09:50 AM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>KannaWhoopass wrote: <p>Waaaahhh!!!</p><p><snip> </p><p>nor the [Removed for Content] to eat a death once in a while when it wasn't "fair" -- Waaaaahhhh!!! </p></blockquote><p> Normally i don't go in for this sort of thing, but seriously... IFL2P</p><p>If ppl weren't so attatched to their kill streaks, their KvD ratio and their stupid [Removed for Content] titles, then we'd have alot more PvP, and alot less running away.</p><p>Anyone who runs from a PvP fight should be considered to have LOST that PvP fight. Your chest appears at the feet of your attacker, with gold and tokens inside, you lose fame, you LOSE FACTION (cos you're a coward, and FP/Qeynos have no need for cowards) and you attacker gains all the normal benefits of getting a kill. </p><p>As for the potions issue... have them put you into combat and be done with it.</p>

Eybietie
03-13-2007, 10:03 AM
KannaWhoopass wrote: <blockquote>The fact is i cant root a person .. <p>And i cant kill a person who doesnt figth back ... All they need to do is cure the root then run in circles arround me in a wide arc .... </p><p>Heck they can harvest too while they are there .. </p><p>If fighter abilities were RESISTED ...INTERUPTED ...CURED ..RESISTED ...RESISTED ...IMMUNE .... im sure you might get it..</p><p>1/3 to 2/3 of my attacks are resisted ... and my roots are trivial.</p><p>I win pvp in groups and when my opponent thinks he is going to win ... if any class with a potion feels they might loose ..just turn and run away .... i cant stop you .  </p></blockquote> lool. how about giving the furies some nuke ability? oh wait.... they only can nuke for 1k since lvl 35 something AE... how about giving the warden an ability that the melee classes cant get near them oh wait - they got this ( sandstorm ) how about giving them swarm pets... oh wait they got that... how about giving the WARDEN A F-in 15 sec AE ROOT? wait ... they got that.... how about ...... come on <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

baddogshaun
03-13-2007, 10:17 AM
<cite>KannaWhoopass wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Ill make  a deal take the potions out ... you can have my root imunity and knock back </p><p>I paid 22 AA points for it .. you can get snare imunity in a bottle for 10 silver.</p></blockquote>But you cant.. what you get in bottles is pathetically inferior, inconvenient and not useable often enough to be more than an occasional get out of jail card. And to draw an analogy what is a see stealth or invis totem but that for you? a way to do something other classes do as defining abilities, but do it badly.

Taldier
03-14-2007, 02:53 AM
Mildavyn wrote: <blockquote><p>Anyone who runs from a PvP fight should be considered to have LOST that PvP fight. Your chest appears at the feet of your attacker, with gold and tokens inside, you lose fame, you LOSE FACTION (cos you're a coward, and FP/Qeynos have no need for cowards) and you attacker gains all the normal benefits of getting a kill. </p><p>As for the potions issue... have them put you into combat and be done with it.</p></blockquote><p>While Im sure this is not meant literally, I'll pretend that your serious.  So when the x2 raid swoops in on you, yet you manage to get away they should get a free kill?  Certainly I agree with you when it comes to one v one or group v group, but there are way to many gankers who exploit these kinds of things.</p><p> Back to the original topic... I really dont see the problem.  If the person was going to engage you, having the potion put  them in combat doesnt make a [Removed for Content] difference.  Having them lock you in combat is just another way for gankers to force you into combat so that their whole group can bash you into the ground.  Certainly its annoying when someone manages to get away, but wouldnt you rather lose a kill every once in awhile then get rolled over by a full group while you cant move?</p><p>- Lord Taldier Unholy </p>

Greenion
03-14-2007, 09:06 AM
<p><span style="color: #339900">no i would prefer those whom i attack that undo my attacks in whatever way go into combat mode.</span></p><p><span style="color: #339900">i will be happy to have the same combative stipulations placed upon me.</span></p>

Lite-Brite
03-14-2007, 10:21 AM
<span style="color: #66ffff">i didn't read the whole thread just the OP.  An easy fix to this has nothing to do with changing how potions work. But adding an immunity timer to snare.  Snare IS a control effect.  Every other class in the game that has any type of control effect have to work their way around it and time their control effects depending on the situation to get the most out of it.  Where as a snare, if you cure it, the snare-er can just reapply at will.  If you got immunity to snare in the same manner you got immunity to root/fear/stun/stifle/mez i think it would level out the playing field of roots being cured</span>

Taldier
03-14-2007, 12:59 PM
<p>/agree</p><p>It doesnt really make sense why snare is the only one that doesnt have an immunity timer on it.  Snareing someone enough times is essentially the same as rooting them, and often times even seems more effective.</p>

Killque
03-14-2007, 01:24 PM
<cite>Mildavyn wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>KannaWhoopass wrote: <p>Waaaahhh!!!</p><p><snip> </p><p>nor the [Removed for Content] to eat a death once in a while when it wasn't "fair" -- Waaaaahhhh!!! </p></blockquote><p> Normally i don't go in for this sort of thing, but seriously... IFL2P</p><p>If ppl weren't so attatched to their kill streaks, their KvD ratio and their stupid [I cannot control my vocabulary] titles, then we'd have alot more PvP, and alot less running away.</p><p>Anyone who runs from a PvP fight should be considered to have LOST that PvP fight. Your chest appears at the feet of your attacker, with gold and tokens inside, you lose fame, you LOSE FACTION (cos you're a coward, and FP/Qeynos have no need for cowards) and you attacker gains all the normal benefits of getting a kill. </p><p>As for the potions issue... have them put you into combat and be done with it.</p></blockquote><p>Are you seriously saying this should be instated? Do you have any idea what this would mean?</p><p>A fair 1v1 can easily change to a not fair 1v1. Someone joins in, you discover that they are resisting everything u throw at them, they have way better gear as you are doing squat for dmg and they are ripping you appart. No reason anyone should stand there and die just because you want them to. You have to earn that kill my friend. Dont expect anyone to lay down and die. </p>

Elephanton
03-15-2007, 02:43 PM
I think using potions should put you in combat

Ameniel
03-15-2007, 04:02 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><cite>Spag wrote:</cite><blockquote>Show me the potion that wards or cures anywhere NEAR the amount that a Priest can.  Now show me one that has a recast time that would allow said melee type to cast it more than once in a PvP fight.  Seriously.  Do the math.  Health * number of possible casts in say, 2 minutes.  To compare potions to the healing abilities of a priest is just stupid. </blockquote></blockquote><p> Exactly. Cure potions have huge reuse timers, very unlikely you'll get to use the same type in the same fight. This is why I just don't buy the OP's claim that they tried to root multiple times and each time it was cured with a potion. And healing potions....lol they're almost a joke, they heal for very little and their best use is for a very close fight when you need that little extra edge, other than that they're not worth using. </p><p>Classes such as melees who do not innately have curing abilities need these items because without them druids would be way unbalanced. Think at low tiers when you can't use cure root potions yet. When that 20+ warden casts that root that lasts forever on you & nukes the crap out of you there's nothing you can do. They nuke you to death & it's a sure win. </p><p> Cure potions are balanced in that they have the long reuse times like mentioned above. You'll cure it once, but you'll have to put up with it the next time. </p>