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View Full Version : PvP titles should be optional if worn or not


Gaeus
03-12-2007, 07:50 AM
    Titles gained via pvp are the only ones not allowed to be removed or used by choice of the player and I wonder why?  Titles cause more problems than anything, I don't need to embellish on how they do...  Every player on any pvp server know the cowardly type of tactics title hugging losers use to gain a title/infamy and imo if you were able to remove it, at least it would be a bit more subtle and  harder for them to track players down solely by their titles.  Players have even betrayed then returned to their starting city of choice just to drop the title off of their name, why is this necessary?  Why not enable us to have the title on or off, at our own leisure?

Sinistria
03-12-2007, 08:17 AM
this idea has my YES so i dont need to let myself killed to loose the title again. i mean, i can turn of hunter of orcs sh i t but not the prefix. names like: "hunter the the blabla -insert name here- hunter of orcs living in freeport and dont know a nice surename" just look stupid on screen.

Rattfa
03-12-2007, 08:19 AM
The way titles and fame works needs to be reworked, having the option to not display a title would only bork it more than it already is.

Greenion
03-12-2007, 08:51 AM
<p><span style="color: #339900">title just makes my name bigger and more easily seen at distance, so im all for it.</span></p><p><span style="color: #339900">if there were a way to make my name unseen unless you targeted my body, id do that to.</span></p>

Bozidar
03-12-2007, 10:15 AM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>    Titles gained via pvp are the only ones not allowed to be removed or used by choice of the player and I wonder why?  Titles cause more problems than anything, I don't need to embellish on how they do...  Every player on any pvp server know the cowardly type of tactics title hugging losers use to gain a title/infamy and imo if you were able to remove it, at least it would be a bit more subtle and  harder for them to track players down solely by their titles.  Players have even betrayed then returned to their starting city of choice just to drop the title off of their name, why is this necessary?  Why not enable us to have the title on or off, at our own leisure? </blockquote><p>Hmm... you say it causes problems.  I say it causes action.</p><p>We had 2 dreadnaughts when we went out last night (3 when we came home), and action came for us a lot more than when we generally didn't have any dreadnaughts.  They came at us, hard.</p><p>It's WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYY better than having to route them from behind guards <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p>

Bozidar
03-12-2007, 10:16 AM
<cite>Greenion wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="color: #339900">title just makes my name bigger and more easily seen at distance, so im all for it.</span></p><p><span style="color: #339900">if there were a way to make my name unseen unless you targeted my body, id do that to.</span></p></blockquote> hehe, what would you give to hide "the Exiled"? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Greenion
03-12-2007, 10:19 AM
<p><span style="color: #339900">im alot more proud of that suffix than any prefix i'll ever have.</span></p><p><span style="color: #339900">edit> in fact, and ive said this long before now, i value my forum title more than any one pvp title, roflz...truth. itd be a miracle (the rl kind, not the castable twice per hour ingame kind (or whatever the recast is...im godless ingame so....i dunno) if i ever got above slayer on a toon solo anyways...</span></p>

Norrsken
03-12-2007, 10:22 AM
<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>    Titles gained via pvp are the only ones not allowed to be removed or used by choice of the player and I wonder why?  Titles cause more problems than anything, I don't need to embellish on how they do...  Every player on any pvp server know the cowardly type of tactics title hugging losers use to gain a title/infamy and imo if you were able to remove it, at least it would be a bit more subtle and  harder for them to track players down solely by their titles.  Players have even betrayed then returned to their starting city of choice just to drop the title off of their name, why is this necessary?  Why not enable us to have the title on or off, at our own leisure? </blockquote><p>Hmm... you say it causes problems.  I say it causes action.</p><p>We had 2 dreadnaughts when we went out last night (3 when we came home), and action came for us a lot more than when we generally didn't have any dreadnaughts.  They came at us, hard.</p><p>It's WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYY better than having to route them from behind guards <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p></blockquote>For us, its the opposite effect. They know they'll die so they run at the mere notion of our dreadnaughts .<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Bozidar
03-12-2007, 10:26 AM
<cite>Greenion wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="color: #339900">im alot more proud of that suffix than any prefix i'll ever have.</span></p><p><span style="color: #339900">edit> in fact, and ive said this long before now, i value my forum title more than any one pvp title, roflz...truth. itd be a miracle (the rl kind, not the castable twice per hour ingame kind (or whatever the recast is...im godless ingame so....i dunno) if i ever got above slayer on a toon solo anyways...</span></p></blockquote><p> I know how you feel about being exile.  You're the one who didn't want your name to show, though <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> (you mentioned your whole name, not just prefix)</p><p>Think about it though.. you could run around conn'able to both sides, but the reds wouldn't summarily squash your face as soon as they see you.  You'd get way more appropriate fights, and fewer red beat downs.</p><p>I wouldn't mind seeing exiles lose their suffix, and i don't have a single exile toon.</p>

Bozidar
03-12-2007, 10:27 AM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>For us, its the opposite effect. They know they'll die so they run at the mere notion of our dreadnaughts .<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote> Well i guess are enemies are just COOOLER then =P <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Greenion
03-12-2007, 10:37 AM
<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Greenion wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="color: #339900">im alot more proud of that suffix than any prefix i'll ever have.</span></p><p><span style="color: #339900">edit> in fact, and ive said this long before now, i value my forum title more than any one pvp title, roflz...truth. itd be a miracle (the rl kind, not the castable twice per hour ingame kind (or whatever the recast is...im godless ingame so....i dunno) if i ever got above slayer on a toon solo anyways...</span></p></blockquote><p> I know how you feel about being exile.  You're the one who didn't want your name to show, though <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> (you mentioned your whole name, not just prefix)</p><p>Think about it though.. you could run around conn'able to both sides, but the reds wouldn't summarily squash your face as soon as they see you.  You'd get way more appropriate fights, and fewer red beat downs.</p><p>I wouldn't mind seeing exiles lose their suffix, and i don't have a single exile toon.</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #339900">yep because noone would "know" you, before really getting to "know" you.</span></p><p><span style="color: #339900">you either con attackable or not.</span></p><p><span style="color: #339900">edit> in the target window, not in the middle of the screen preferably, at least on my screen, id simply prefer for others not to see the huge neon sign meandering through the brush unless they have me (the body ubder the neon sign) targeted. (i would expect the same type con system for everyone, and no, i am not demanding the one we are using be changed, just my thoughts on the matter)</span></p><p><span style="color: #339900">edit2> btw friendlies (i have none but i guess a few peeps onserver do) itd be ok imo for them to see other names of friendlies without having them targeted, if they feel the need, i think it ruins the view (the names onscreen...not having friendlies))</span></p><p><span style="color: #339900">edit3> lastly my one big complaint about vg is that there is no setting at all anywhere that i can make the name of whatever i have targeted not appear above the head of it on the screen...this upsets me a great deal...roflz)</span> </p>

Norrsken
03-12-2007, 10:39 AM
<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>For us, its the opposite effect. They know they'll die so they run at the mere notion of our dreadnaughts .<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote> Well i guess are enemies are just COOOLER then =P <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote>Prolly sad but true. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I've started talking to a dude in qeynos that are bringing up some toons to our level, asking for good group on group fights. Im so [Removed for Content] sick of a full group of even cons with equal or better gear evacing as soon as they see us. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Killque
03-12-2007, 11:01 AM
<p>Well, heres my take on it.</p><p>Infamy titles show just that, how infamous you are. If you were able to hide them, it wouldnt have the same effect.</p><p>Wear your title, and wear it proudly.</p>

Norrsken
03-12-2007, 11:05 AM
<cite>Killque wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Well, heres my take on it.</p><p>Infamy titles show just that, how infamous you are. If you were able to hide them, it wouldnt have the same effect.</p><p>Wear your title, and wear it proudly.</p></blockquote>Nah. REal infamy or fame is competely detached from the title in game. There are a fwe players that are famous for their skill, as well as infamous for their lack of it, or their zoneline tenedencies. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> The famous ones get respect (And a bit of hate shot their way) and the infamous tend to get flamed at every possible turn. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Bozidar
03-12-2007, 11:13 AM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>Nah. REal infamy or fame is competely detached from the title in game. There are a fwe players that are famous for their skill, as well as infamous for their lack of it, or their zoneline tenedencies. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> The famous ones get respect (And a bit of hate shot their way) and the infamous tend to get flamed at every possible turn. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote><p> But how often do those titles not follow the pvp titles?</p><p>Now i've only made it to lvl 53 on my highest level toon.  Maybe it's different in T7, but i've never come across an untitled toon, or even a hunter, that made me think to myself: Wow, this guy is awesome! </p>

Norrsken
03-12-2007, 11:20 AM
<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>Nah. REal infamy or fame is competely detached from the title in game. There are a fwe players that are famous for their skill, as well as infamous for their lack of it, or their zoneline tenedencies. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> The famous ones get respect (And a bit of hate shot their way) and the infamous tend to get flamed at every possible turn. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote><p> But how often do those titles not follow the pvp titles?</p><p>Now i've only made it to lvl 53 on my highest level toon.  Maybe it's different in T7, but i've never come across an untitled toon, or even a hunter, that made me think to myself: Wow, this guy is awesome! </p></blockquote>Nah, they arent generally untitled, but I've fought quite a few nasty peeps that were slayers/destroyers. And a score of champs/dreads that didnt put up the least bit of a fight. I think Ssslick is a slayer, or destroyer. Or he finally got himself some more titles. And he's prolly a bit known on nagafen. Gnarkill should be quite famous. No idea what title gnarkill had, but I still know he was a nasty sk. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Killque
03-12-2007, 12:04 PM
<p>I agree that the higher the title doesnt always mean the more potent the player, but I take titles at face value. Im only a destroyer, but I think I pack a punch.... and would like to think I am "known" on Vox... Hell I play enough...</p><p> Still, I think titles are important, and should be shown.</p><p>Im Solo more often than not. Only a destroyer because I always get killed when I group =/.</p>

AbyssalSoul
03-12-2007, 12:10 PM
My general notion is the higher the title, the faster they run or the more people they travel with.  As a mage I would LOVE to have the option to hide your title, it'd save the "love" towards me to knock me out fast for my infamy and to get rid of my DPS when my group is getting attacked.  I'd rather people stay and fight than jump off a cliff, etc, to save face.  Of course if it wasn't infamy and a title system, people would care more about KvD than they do now.  So, it'll always be something...

Norrsken
03-12-2007, 12:10 PM
<cite>Killque wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I agree that the higher the title doesnt always mean the more potent the player, but I take titles at face value. Im only a destroyer, but I think I pack a punch.... and would like to think I am "known" on Vox... Hell I play enough...</p><p> Still, I think titles are important, and should be shown.</p><p>Im Solo more often than not. Only a destroyer because I always get killed when I group =/.</p></blockquote>Ont he flip side of the coin I dayly see dreadnaughts that I ahve no idea who they are. And even the occasional general and master. Titles dont really come with any kind of fame. They may give a hint of the players qualities, but most often that hint means they are good at not getting killed, rather than good allround players. There are a select few that break that pattern, but, well, again, its not the title that make them famous. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Mutant
03-12-2007, 12:23 PM
<p>Just want to clear a myth. People without titles RUN all the time. Even non-title oranges run from me non-stop everyday. Taking titles away will not by any means whatsoever stop people from running. It is human nature to want to survive. on another note:</p><p>The ones who do have titles more often then not, do have some skill, even if avoiding a death is their best skill <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Titles are a reward and a con system; you have a rough idea of how tough your enemy is based on them. When you have a high title, people hate you more and more and go after you first and hunt you relentlessly. Wear it proud definitely.</p><p>The problem I see happening if you could hide them, is we would be even more in the dark as to when we lost or gained fame/infamy. Like what was his title? How much fame did I just lose or gain w t f. Maybe if some other things were worked out first, like actually knowing the current fame percentage, then hiding your title would be a more viable option.</p><p>Devs have done some pretty impressive changes lately that we needed, so If they feel titles and fame/infamy are out of whack they might make some of our wishes come true soon. </p>

Killque
03-12-2007, 12:32 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><cite>Killque wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I agree that the higher the title doesnt always mean the more potent the player, but I take titles at face value. Im only a destroyer, but I think I pack a punch.... and would like to think I am "known" on Vox... Hell I play enough...</p><p> Still, I think titles are important, and should be shown.</p><p>Im Solo more often than not. Only a destroyer because I always get killed when I group =/.</p></blockquote>Ont he flip side of the coin I dayly see dreadnaughts that I ahve no idea who they are. And even the occasional general and master. Titles dont really come with any kind of fame. They may give a hint of the players qualities, but most often that hint means they are good at not getting killed, rather than good allround players. There are a select few that break that pattern, but, well, again, its not the title that make them famous. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote>Exactly, there are thousands who play the game, we cant know them all. Some are more "infamous" in the game as they play more often, or play at your tier etc. Others arent as well known, but are just as good. That is where the title comes in. When you come across someone new, their title can tell you a story... now, that story can vary from leet solo stalker who would stab Innorruuk himself in the face if he got a chance, to a Guard leg clinging, x4 rolling player. That, is where the power of your own mind comes in.... interpratation ftw.

Norrsken
03-12-2007, 12:47 PM
<cite>Killque wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><cite>Killque wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I agree that the higher the title doesnt always mean the more potent the player, but I take titles at face value. Im only a destroyer, but I think I pack a punch.... and would like to think I am "known" on Vox... Hell I play enough...</p><p> Still, I think titles are important, and should be shown.</p><p>Im Solo more often than not. Only a destroyer because I always get killed when I group =/.</p></blockquote>Ont he flip side of the coin I dayly see dreadnaughts that I ahve no idea who they are. And even the occasional general and master. Titles dont really come with any kind of fame. They may give a hint of the players qualities, but most often that hint means they are good at not getting killed, rather than good allround players. There are a select few that break that pattern, but, well, again, its not the title that make them famous. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote>Exactly, there are thousands who play the game, we cant know them all. Some are more "infamous" in the game as they play more often, or play at your tier etc. Others arent as well known, but are just as good. That is where the title comes in. When you come across someone new, their title can tell you a story... now, that story can vary from leet solo stalker who would stab Innorruuk himself in the face if he got a chance, to a Guard leg clinging, x4 rolling player. That, is where the power of your own mind comes in.... interpratation ftw. </blockquote>And I still regard seeing my own title as ugly crud infront of my name. Idc if others see it, I dont want to see mine. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Radigazt
03-12-2007, 12:49 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>The way titles and fame works needs to be reworked, having the option to not display a title would only bork it more than it already is. </blockquote><p> I think Rattface has it right.  The title system should ENCOURAGE PVP, not DISCOURAGE it.  At present the penalty for losing is so steep infamy/fame-wise that the title-h0arz run from us all the time.  I run with Ulvhamne quite often, and when they see our Dreadnaughts, even full groups of yellow cons insta-evac or run to the nearest zone line.  If we follow them they'll zone-hump and eventually camp/call.  We con blue to them, they are very well geared out, yet they refuse to fight us because they know we stand a decent chance of winning.  That is NOT what people want from PvP.  I'm fine with all the statistics, but for titles I'd like to see some changes made.  </p><p>1) Remove the infamy-loss for dying, it just discourages PvP.  Sure, titles would then be about how much you PvP, but what's really wrong with that? 2) Make it so that you get infamy every time you kill someone higher titled than you ... when a Slayer kills a Dreadnaught, he deserves infamy! 3) Give more infamy for killing someone higher level than  you and less infamy for killing someone lower level than you. 4) Give more infamy for soloing, they're taking more risks.  But, give scouts less infamy for soloing, because they're the only ones with tracking.  5) Give less infamy if your group has more total con levels than your prey.  I.e., every grey con counts as 1 level, green con as 2 levels, blue 3, white 4, yellow 5, orange 6, and red 7.  So, if you have a group of 6 who con green to your prey, that's 12 con levels in the group.  They would be about even with 2 orange cons.  6) Give less infamy when someone is engaged with mobs or low on health.  7) Make it so that when someone kills you, neither you nor the person that killed you can attack each other for 3 minutes ... it will prevent zerg rushing and not [Removed for Content] respawns.  </p>

Splintered
03-12-2007, 03:30 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><p>Just want to clear a myth. People without titles RUN all the time. Even non-title oranges run from me non-stop everyday. Taking titles away will not by any means whatsoever stop people from running. It is human nature to want to survive. on another note:</p><p>The ones who do have titles more often then not, do have some skill, even if avoiding a death is their best skill <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Titles are a reward and a con system; you have a rough idea of how tough your enemy is based on them. When you have a high title, people hate you more and more and go after you first and hunt you relentlessly. Wear it proud definitely.</p><p>The problem I see happening if you could hide them, is we would be even more in the dark as to when we lost or gained fame/infamy. Like what was his title? How much fame did I just lose or gain w t f. Maybe if some other things were worked out first, like actually knowing the current fame percentage, then hiding your title would be a more viable option.</p><p>Devs have done some pretty impressive changes lately that we needed, so If they feel titles and fame/infamy are out of whack they might make some of our wishes come true soon. </p></blockquote> So, you claim that titles do represent skill and how tough your opponent is? Ok, lets look at that for a second, your a lvl 18 swashy dreadnaught, translation, you by default the most powerful tier 2 class save a very twinked warden. Only one class can actually see you in tier 2, your always the first to run, and know exactly where the nearest exit is. So my question is, would a lvl 18 warlock who is very twinked and very skilled stand up to you lvl 18 swashy?, no of course not. Now, i will agree with you partially in that there are a good number of people with high titles who are very good pvp'ers, i.e. drytan, xane, runz, ohnoes, dirdy, weakling, flinch, likuk and a good number of others I didn't mention. (venekor server). As others have said though, and I would agree with, pvp is based off of mainly 3 things, with the first thing as the most important part, second and third respectively. 1) class (single most important aspect), 2) gear, 3) skill. Btw, goblin, not trying to say you don't have skill, not even for a second, just saying you have to remember your playing an extremlely powerful class (see #1). Most people who like titles seem to play those classes, i.e. swashy, ranger, brig, assassin, fury, warden (yes I know my main is a warden, but I was playing druids long before it ever became a fad!)

Fearborn
03-12-2007, 05:13 PM
<p>Doesn't make sense to me at all.</p><p>You are criticizing people for running away from fights that they can't win, but these guys have high titles, signifying that they have probably made a lot of kills.</p><p>So basically, they are killing titled players when they have the advantage, and avoiding combat when the odds are not in their favor.</p><p>Sounds like common sense and good tactical awareness to me.</p><p>Basically what I am hearing is bitterness towards some players because they are tough to kill, and seem to have all the advantages.</p><p>Sure, some players frustrate me because I want to kill them and take their infamy, but when the odds look even or good, they evade, and when the odds are in their favor, they move in hard.  Well, good for them that they are doing things right.</p><p>I love having the future plan of improving my title, and picking fights carefully.  Once you have several hundred kills, having the additional aim of titles keeps the buzz.  Losing a title is a pain and you PvP more to try and get it back.  I like that you lose titles.  I like that it causes some players to become hugely defensive, I like that it causes a lot of controversy.  This is when the Devs put titles into the game, cause we are all competitive.  In the main, those who moan about titles are generally seething inside because someone took theirs, or they cannot kill a certain player who keeps running from them.</p>

Badaxe Ba
03-12-2007, 05:31 PM
<p>In the end, a title means squat.  The most skilled player can die to a raidx4 and lose fame.  The most nonskilled player can be in a group and gain fame thru no actions other than landing one hit.  There are different tactics and strategies that come into play depending on whether you are solo or grouped, that doesn't take into account titles at all.</p><p>Dying at a rez point after reviving and someone in your group is fighting and you lose fame because you get wiped by an aoe, yet you didn't personally reenter combat?  How does that make sense?  Gaining fame because you killed a solo player and you had 23 friends help you?  REAL famous action there!  Sporting a Dreadnought title, but you abandon your group members because you might lose fame?  Good players are known by their skill.  They are not known by the title.</p>

Gaeus
03-12-2007, 05:50 PM
<cite>Radigazt wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>The way titles and fame works needs to be reworked, having the option to not display a title would only bork it more than it already is. </blockquote><p> I think Rattface has it right.  The title system should ENCOURAGE PVP, not DISCOURAGE it.  At present the penalty for losing is so steep infamy/fame-wise that the title-h0arz run from us all the time.  I run with Ulvhamne quite often, and when they see our Dreadnaughts, even full groups of yellow cons insta-evac or run to the nearest zone line.  If we follow them they'll zone-hump and eventually camp/call.  We con blue to them, they are very well geared out, yet they refuse to fight us because they know we stand a decent chance of winning.  That is NOT what people want from PvP.  I'm fine with all the statistics, but for titles I'd like to see some changes made.  </p><p>1) Remove the infamy-loss for dying, it just discourages PvP.  Sure, titles would then be about how much you PvP, but what's really wrong with that? 2) Make it so that you get infamy every time you kill someone higher titled than you ... when a Slayer kills a Dreadnaught, he deserves infamy! 3) Give more infamy for killing someone higher level than  you and less infamy for killing someone lower level than you. 4) Give more infamy for soloing, they're taking more risks.  But, give scouts less infamy for soloing, because they're the only ones with tracking.  5) Give less infamy if your group has more total con levels than your prey.  I.e., every grey con counts as 1 level, green con as 2 levels, blue 3, white 4, yellow 5, orange 6, and red 7.  So, if you have a group of 6 who con green to your prey, that's 12 con levels in the group.  They would be about even with 2 orange cons.  6) Give less infamy when someone is engaged with mobs or low on health.  7) Make it so that when someone kills you, neither you nor the person that killed you can attack each other for 3 minutes ... it will prevent zerg rushing and not [Removed for Content] respawns.  </p></blockquote>          This guy hit the nail on the head when describing the pvp fights you have with those who fight for only one thing, a title which is gained not from skill but from simply evading death no matter the cost.  If he leaves a group when it half health and saves his infamy he feels great, regardless that had he stayed his group might not have gotten wiped.  These players will hear where a "champion" is, and if he is a lone they will be sure to be higher con to him, and in a full group just to get the infamy it's not about the pvp anymore.  Also, anyone higher in title SHOULD give infamy to a lower titled player, it's rediculous that a higher title has nothing to lose when he fights a lower title.  As for increasing PVP due to showing a title, it does not increase it.  It increases cowardly gameplay on those who value titles the most, and makes a player a target not because of his prowess in combat or his spell choices IE a healer, mage but because he has a infamy title that will give more infamy.  I see entire groups of title mongers that will target one player with a title they want, kill him then simply run to zonelines or guards to hide in safety.  The strategy in PVP shouldn't be about killing someone over a title, it should be about taking out the most damaging enemy first.  I only say to let the titles be optional because then, at least it's your choice if it's over your head, just like every other title in the game.  Too many people just value titles and nothing else, and they do anything to get them.  It's really making PVP not about PVP but instead, a prefix which truly does not indicate skill on the battlefield in most cases.  I have fought one on one dreadnaughts and beaten them, and fought slayers/destroyers and died one on one.  Title means NOTHING.

Radigazt
03-12-2007, 06:05 PM
<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>Nah. REal infamy or fame is competely detached from the title in game. There are a fwe players that are famous for their skill, as well as infamous for their lack of it, or their zoneline tenedencies. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> The famous ones get respect (And a bit of hate shot their way) and the infamous tend to get flamed at every possible turn. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote><p> But how often do those titles not follow the pvp titles?</p><p>Now i've only made it to lvl 53 on my highest level toon.  Maybe it's different in T7, but i've never come across an untitled toon, or even a hunter, that made me think to myself: Wow, this guy is awesome! </p></blockquote><p> I generally agree with what you're saying Bozidar.  But some people, like myself, are alt-aholics.  I make new alts periodically, and I consider myself a formidable opponent regardless of title.  The last alt I made has no PvP gear and just got Slayer ... yeah, Slayer, but he's got over 100 kills and only 7 deaths and unless it's a raid or a full group of orange cons, I don't run.  I like to think that I'm a pretty good player and I have fully mastercrafted armor, no charms, no adornments and no miracles.  </p>

Killque
03-12-2007, 06:11 PM
<p>I agree with someone above. Fame, lets face it, its motivation. We would have runners with or without it. I really dont think people run because they will loose fame, it is the small majority. With Fame, it gives us something to stride for, to show off, to earn and hold as your own.. to be taken from and to take.</p><p>Everyone has different motivation, sure maybe some people truely dont care about titles, but the majority do.</p><p>It is of my opionion those who complain about titles the most, care about it the most. They care so much, that it boils their blood when they loose.</p><p>The mysterious and hidden mechanics of Infamy also is a root cause of this discontent towards fame imo. People dont like the "unknown", hence we have religion etc... always an answer for everything...</p><p>Killing 10 people for fame and then getting killed once and loosing a title sure frustrates even the best of us, but it is what it is... If it wasnt a challenge, why would it need to exist.</p><p>If you never lost imfamy for dying there would be no indiviualization. It would be like trivializing the Jedi role in SWG... a game killer to be sure.</p>

Mutant
03-12-2007, 06:20 PM
<p>If titles were optionally hidden, then what's the best way to manage viewing when you lose or gain fame/infamy? Just leave it as it is, you die and get the message "your death has decreased your fame" and that's it?</p><p>I think it could be a good idea to hide titles, but we are already in the dark about the fame/infamy amount as it is. Its bad enough now, you have to judge based on con, title, amount of people as to what your gain or lose was, but its still something.</p><p>Without seeing the titles in pvp, it would be kind of like pve without ever knowing what the mob cons, how much exp debt you get if you die, or how much xp gain you are getting.</p><p>All I'm saying like others said, is other things would need to be changed first if titles were hid.</p><p>Maybe a fame/infamy xp bar would be a good start so that you can see what affects what, and even make it to where you can disable your fame/infamy xp; that would solve the problem for all you who don't want the title <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p>

Norrsken
03-12-2007, 06:21 PM
<cite>Killque wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I agree with someone above. Fame, lets face it, its motivation. We would have runners with or without it. I really dont think people run because they will loose fame, it is the small majority. With Fame, it gives us something to stride for, to show off, to earn and hold as your own.. to be taken from and to take.</p><p>Everyone has different motivation, sure maybe some people truely dont care about titles, but the majority do.</p><p>It is of my opionion those who complain about titles the most, care about it the most. They care so much, that it boils their blood when they loose.</p><p>The mysterious and hidden mechanics of Infamy also is a root cause of this discontent towards fame imo. People dont like the "unknown", hence we have religion etc... always an answer for everything...</p><p>Killing 10 people for fame and then getting killed once and loosing a title sure frustrates even the best of us, but it is what it is... If it wasnt a challenge, why would it need to exist.</p><p>If you never lost imfamy for dying there would be no indiviualization. It would be like trivializing the Jedi role in SWG... a game killer to be sure.</p></blockquote>/shrug. I have an idea for how to make titles only obtainable by skill, but its beens hot down every time I ever bring it up so I got bored. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Radigazt
03-12-2007, 06:22 PM
<p>double post, please delete.  </p>

Gaeus
03-12-2007, 06:27 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><cite>Killque wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I agree with someone above. Fame, lets face it, its motivation. We would have runners with or without it. I really dont think people run because they will loose fame, it is the small majority. With Fame, it gives us something to stride for, to show off, to earn and hold as your own.. to be taken from and to take.</p><p>Everyone has different motivation, sure maybe some people truely dont care about titles, but the majority do.</p><p>It is of my opionion those who complain about titles the most, care about it the most. They care so much, that it boils their blood when they loose.</p><p>The mysterious and hidden mechanics of Infamy also is a root cause of this discontent towards fame imo. People dont like the "unknown", hence we have religion etc... always an answer for everything...</p><p>Killing 10 people for fame and then getting killed once and loosing a title sure frustrates even the best of us, but it is what it is... If it wasnt a challenge, why would it need to exist.</p><p>If you never lost imfamy for dying there would be no indiviualization. It would be like trivializing the Jedi role in SWG... a game killer to be sure.</p></blockquote>/shrug. I have an idea for how to make titles only obtainable by skill, but its beens hot down every time I ever bring it up so I got bored. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote>          What is your idea?  I would like to hear it anyways.

Norrsken
03-12-2007, 06:28 PM
<cite>Radigazt wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Now i've only made it to lvl 53 on my highest level toon.  Maybe it's different in T7, but i've never come across an untitled toon, or even a hunter, that made me think to myself: Wow, this guy is awesome! </p></blockquote> I dunno, I am a person who has several alts, and while I may be a decent player, not all of my toons have the same titles.  For instance, my latest alt just got Slayer ... yeah Slayer, so you might consider him to be no good.  But, he has 118 kills and 7 deaths, only runs from raids, groups of orange cons, and when he's outnumbered at least 2 to 1.  I think a lot of people might look at me as an easy kill, but I'm not.  I have Mastercrafted armor, nothing in my charm slots, no adornments, no miracles, just about half of my spells are masters and the other half adept 3's.  I don't really think my title is going to make much of a difference in me as a player.  I was Hunter last week, and I'm quite certain that I'll get this toon to Champion or better eventually, but all that's really going to change is that I'll have time to get more masters and the faction to get PvP gear, but I will not become that much stronger of a toon or player.  So, when you see a person without a title, don't always assume he sucks, because you may be in for a rough education.  </blockquote> Hey! Dont go givin people clues! I like it when they think my sk is [Removed for Content]. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Norrsken
03-12-2007, 06:29 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><cite>Killque wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I agree with someone above. Fame, lets face it, its motivation. We would have runners with or without it. I really dont think people run because they will loose fame, it is the small majority. With Fame, it gives us something to stride for, to show off, to earn and hold as your own.. to be taken from and to take.</p><p>Everyone has different motivation, sure maybe some people truely dont care about titles, but the majority do.</p><p>It is of my opionion those who complain about titles the most, care about it the most. They care so much, that it boils their blood when they loose.</p><p>The mysterious and hidden mechanics of Infamy also is a root cause of this discontent towards fame imo. People dont like the "unknown", hence we have religion etc... always an answer for everything...</p><p>Killing 10 people for fame and then getting killed once and loosing a title sure frustrates even the best of us, but it is what it is... If it wasnt a challenge, why would it need to exist.</p><p>If you never lost imfamy for dying there would be no indiviualization. It would be like trivializing the Jedi role in SWG... a game killer to be sure.</p></blockquote>/shrug. I have an idea for how to make titles only obtainable by skill, but its beens hot down every time I ever bring it up so I got bored. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote>          What is your idea?  I would like to hear it anyways. </blockquote>Requires a pretty long post to explain it fully, but basically tournaments.

Kurindor_Mythecnea
03-13-2007, 12:04 AM
I've suggested before and still am a proponent for scaling down kill rewards based upon your form factor and the oppositions'. As it stands, if you are in anything greater than a x 2 and kill any single groups or solo players, you get no credit. What this needs to do is end up getting carried on down the chain -- anything over twice your current alliance will be without rank attribution for the kill (status, recency tab, and kill count would still be modified, as it might otherwise kill the general incentive for PvPing on a more collective scale [i.e. in full groups]). As you add players to your group, they can't be removed for one minute. Being a group leader and succeeding is something that should take skill and judicious proceeding for success -- if there was an awareness for a crucial potential (for instance, accidentally inviting that supernub Liltimtom and opening your group's susceptibility), all the better. Some safeguards though that would need enacting would consist of the following: · 25 second timer on group ejection (whether through the leader or self)* · Fame gathering nullification if any outside party steps in and hits for more than 5% of your/the group's health/power · Rank progression voiding if any outside party debuffs you/your group The phrased term "outside party" is that which doesn't coincide with the bounds for the accumulation of notoriety, fame, or infamy. * provided that the 1 minute probation limit had already elapsed

tass
03-13-2007, 12:06 AM
omg I got the best idea that would [Removed for Content] title [Removed for Content] off. Right now we have it so that u can lock xp and all that control what u get and dont get in xp. What about titles. What if you could lock title gain. Now if u had a title you could lock it so u didnt advance but u could also de advance if killed and if u had no title at all ud never get 1 to begin with. Its so dam brilliant and would certainly [Removed for Content] so many people off it has to be put in. Think of how many people hate the aspect of pvping on a pvp server and like to pve. Theyd all go without titles. Theired be a standstill of heightening ourself. Well thats my ramble. Now cover it up like the Kennedy assassination.

TheLopper
03-13-2007, 12:37 AM
<p>No, this would be a silly change and wouldn't fix anything.</p><p>They need to pull their heads out their arses and completely rework the fame system.</p>

Badaxe Ba
03-13-2007, 03:04 PM
Its not the titles as such that I disagree with, but the system that determines them.  As far as that goes, if some changes were put in that fixed how titles were earned, I would also agree that an option for the title to be seen or not by the player is a great idea.  Simply to cut back on rendering issues, this would be a plus to each individual.  I may not care what title my opponent has, or I may just want to boost incrementally my pc performance.  If my opponent wishes to see my title, he would have an option to 'turn on pvp titles' for his viewing.  If I don't want to see them, I'd have an option to 'turn off pvp titles', just as I can turn off guild names and regular titles.  I just don't think personally that pvp titles add anything to the game, but that is my opinion and I know others feel differently.

Jaggid
03-13-2007, 03:06 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>    Titles gained via pvp are the only ones not allowed to be removed or used by choice of the player and I wonder why?  Titles cause more problems than anything, I don't need to embellish on how they do...  Every player on any pvp server know the cowardly type of tactics title hugging losers use to gain a title/infamy and imo if you were able to remove it, at least it would be a bit more subtle and  harder for them to track players down solely by their titles.  Players have even betrayed then returned to their starting city of choice just to drop the title off of their name, why is this necessary?  Why not enable us to have the title on or off, at our own leisure? </blockquote> Remove them totally, they have no meaning anyway and most are exploiting to get them.

PeaSy1
03-13-2007, 06:45 PM
In a way i kinda care about my title but not hugely. On Vox in the tiers that i pvp in the guys you see with higher titles are never alone and shows nothing in your title if you run a full group and your toon dont leave town without it. I know of a particular brigand that got dread the other day (gratz btw) that i have only seen out in groups of at least 4 people. And have and know that i can solo anyone in the group save 1. But because i play on a completely dead faction and am forced to run solo 99% of the time im stuck at slayer from and uneven odds. I was actually proud of myself the other day got my 24 wizzy that has been in a group 1 time to destroyer =). But then lost it yesterday when i got jumper by 2 even con hunters and a gray 14 slayer that decided to leech some fame and dropped me slayer but o well ill get it back =).

Spider
03-13-2007, 10:58 PM
maybie its to keep people from pretending to not have a title so they can hide it to lessen the chances of loosing it ?

Vicenzo
03-14-2007, 09:53 AM
<p>Personally, I'm a terrible pvper and fond of soloing.   I tend to favour defilers, berserkers and inquisitors so none of these are exactly solo-pvp advantageous, but thats not to say I don't enjoy a decent rumble when someone chooses to throw down.</p><p>But the title thing I'll never get my head around.   My beloved untwinked Inquisitor (43) has a frankly terrible and rather uninvolved record of 53-43.  He's a questaholic AA nut - and he's a Slayer.  How the hell did that happen when he's barely got involved?  If a heavyweight boxer had that record 'The Slayer' would be some kind of ironic title...</p><p>My answer though would be this - instead of no titles, more titles.  100 of them, 200 of them if they can find a big enough thesaurus.   Starting with negative ones like Feeble, Weak, Pathetic, Lightweight, the Asthmatic Ant, rising to more palatable ones, before ending with the Elite titles.   Give them titles to get rid of - not to earn (to start with anyway).</p>

Norrsken
03-14-2007, 09:59 AM
<cite>Vicenzo wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Personally, I'm a terrible pvper and fond of soloing.   I tend to favour defilers, berserkers and inquisitors so none of these are exactly solo-pvp advantageous, but thats not to say I don't enjoy a decent rumble when someone chooses to throw down.</p><p>But the title thing I'll never get my head around.   My beloved untwinked Inquisitor (43) has a frankly terrible and rather uninvolved record of 53-43.  He's a questaholic AA nut - and he's a Slayer.  How the hell did that happen when he's barely got involved?  If a heavyweight boxer had that record 'The Slayer' would be some kind of ironic title...</p><p>My answer though would be this - instead of no titles, more titles.  100 of them, 200 of them if they can find a big enough thesaurus.   Starting with negative ones like Feeble, Weak, Pathetic, Lightweight, the Asthmatic Ant, rising to more palatable ones, before ending with the Elite titles.   Give them titles to get rid of - not to earn (to start with anyway).</p></blockquote>You must have a quite different build for your inqy than I do. I tear pretty much everyone apart with mine. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Vicenzo
03-14-2007, 12:28 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><cite>Vicenzo wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Personally, I'm a terrible pvper and fond of soloing.   I tend to favour defilers, berserkers and inquisitors so none of these are exactly solo-pvp advantageous, but thats not to say I don't enjoy a decent rumble when someone chooses to throw down.</p><p>But the title thing I'll never get my head around.   My beloved untwinked Inquisitor (43) has a frankly terrible and rather uninvolved record of 53-43.  He's a questaholic AA nut - and he's a Slayer.  How the hell did that happen when he's barely got involved?  If a heavyweight boxer had that record 'The Slayer' would be some kind of ironic title...</p><p>My answer though would be this - instead of no titles, more titles.  100 of them, 200 of them if they can find a big enough thesaurus.   Starting with negative ones like Feeble, Weak, Pathetic, Lightweight, the Asthmatic Ant, rising to more palatable ones, before ending with the Elite titles.   Give them titles to get rid of - not to earn (to start with anyway).</p></blockquote>You must have a quite different build for your inqy than I do. I tear pretty much everyone apart with mine. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote>Its not the dps, I'm well covered in that department, Battle Cleric etc etc.  Its just the treasured armour ten levels below optimal usefulness and the manual dexterity of a boxer trying to play Rachmaninov after a 12 round bout.    Hmmm - I seem to be in a pugilistic mood today, perhaps its time to pvp some more later...

Mordumor
03-14-2007, 02:21 PM
<p>I doubt somone that could turn off titles, would indead change their play style, since by definition title "huggers" want to maintain a title.  It is a nice idea, but that it would somehow convince others who protect THEIR title to play any different is absurd.  In fact, with out any knowledge of the titles they are fighting against, they would likely display the "hugger" behavior more often.  I would suggest instead that make the rate of title decay increased, and that you must actually kill individuals within your infamy range to maintain your title.  Ya..that would work.  And people who do not play anymore, get rid of them off the title chart..there are tons.</p>

Greenion
03-14-2007, 02:31 PM
<p><span style="color: #339900">you know...if we turned off all enemy names overhead (in relation to their opponents) unless an opponent had them targeted or was assisting an ally that had them targeted...then...opponents would not at all see other players titles but their allies still would....unless they had them targeted or were assisting someone who did.</span></p><p><span style="color: #339900">plus it wouldnt make the woods look like a las vegas strip (endless strings of neon signs) in all the pvp videos...</span></p><p><span style="color: #339900">...and...id be harder to see by everyone...roflz.</span></p><p><span style="color: #339900">just a thought.</span></p>

Wytie
03-14-2007, 03:39 PM
<cite>Greenion wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="color: #339900">you know...if we turned off all enemy names overhead (in relation to their opponents) unless an opponent had them targeted or was assisting an ally that had them targeted...then...opponents would not at all see other players titles but their allies still would....unless they had them targeted or were assisting someone who did.</span></p><p><span style="color: #339900">plus it wouldnt make the woods look like a las vegas strip (endless strings of neon signs) in all the pvp videos...</span></p><p><span style="color: #339900">...and...id be harder to see by everyone...roflz.</span></p><p><span style="color: #339900">just a thought.</span></p></blockquote><p>I kinda like this idea but we would still need some way of telling if your foe was bright <span style="color: #ff0033">RED </span>or light <span style="color: #999999">GREY</span></p><p>if that could be implemented with your idea it would make thing more interesting, but that could make scout's track a bit more powerfull that it already is IMO </p>

tass
03-14-2007, 04:23 PM
This game needs what vanguard has. You kill for 2 things and 2 things only infamy and coin. And the optional 3rd to watch every bastage die and yell at u lol. It needs no zones and it needs the in combat and out of combat speeds taken out. It works quite well over their and takes away and way in hell of deciding you dont want to fight today. Because lets face it. Does the player base really give 2 [Removed for Content] if u want to fight or not?

Ameniel
03-14-2007, 05:03 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>Nah. REal infamy or fame is competely detached from the title in game. There are a fwe players that are famous for their skill, as well as infamous for their lack of it, or their zoneline tenedencies. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> The famous ones get respect (And a bit of hate shot their way) and the infamous tend to get flamed at every possible turn. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote><p> But how often do those titles not follow the pvp titles?</p><p>Now i've only made it to lvl 53 on my highest level toon.  Maybe it's different in T7, but i've never come across an untitled toon, or even a hunter, that made me think to myself: Wow, this guy is awesome! </p></blockquote>Nah, they arent generally untitled, but I've fought quite a few nasty peeps that were slayers/destroyers. And a score of champs/dreads that didnt put up the least bit of a fight. I think Ssslick is a slayer, or destroyer. Or he finally got himself some more titles. And he's prolly a bit known on nagafen. Gnarkill should be quite famous. No idea what title gnarkill had, but I still know he was a nasty sk. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote>Yup, I agree here. On Venekor we have an SK(lvl 70) that's an absolute monster, has taken down lvl 70 champ/dreadnaught Qs in 1v2 and even 1v3(normally scouts). One of if not the most(and imo its the most) respected and feared SKs on our server and he is currently a Slayer.

Dak
03-14-2007, 05:54 PM
<cite>tass wrote:</cite><blockquote>This game needs what vanguard has. You kill for 2 things and 2 things only infamy and coin. And the optional 3rd to watch every bastage die and yell at u lol. It needs no zones and it needs the in combat and out of combat speeds taken out. It works quite well over their and takes away and way in hell of deciding you dont want to fight today. Because lets face it. Does the player base really give 2 [I cannot control my vocabulary] if u want to fight or not? </blockquote> Worst.  Assassin.  Ever.

Greenion
03-14-2007, 06:08 PM
<cite>Wytie wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Greenion wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="color: #339900">you know...if we turned off all enemy names overhead (in relation to their opponents) unless an opponent had them targeted or was assisting an ally that had them targeted...then...opponents would not at all see other players titles but their allies still would....unless they had them targeted or were assisting someone who did.</span></p><p><span style="color: #339900">plus it wouldnt make the woods look like a las vegas strip (endless strings of neon signs) in all the pvp videos...</span></p><p><span style="color: #339900">...and...id be harder to see by everyone...roflz.</span></p><p><span style="color: #339900">just a thought.</span></p></blockquote><p>I kinda like this idea but we would still need some way of telling if your foe was bright <span style="color: #ff0033">RED </span>or light <span style="color: #999999">GREY</span></p><p>if that could be implemented with your idea it would make thing more interesting, but that could make scout's track a bit more powerfull that it already is IMO </p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #339900">if you or an ally you are assisting targets an opponent (youd be able to see names of allies...so just dont target them) you'd see their name above their head and in your target window...both places display a con....and a scout's track should show a humanoid biped...possibly factional clues could be found along a trail of someone...though i think tracking should be creature type only anyway...</span></p><p><span style="color: #339900">could possibly be on mouseover also...to see an opponents name and also con.</span></p><p><span style="color: #339900">also...if an opponent attacks you, their name should appear to you above them even if you dont auto target them (you could already be in pvp or pve combat or harvesting when they strike...but the name shouldnt be a blazing neon beacon in the middle of the wilds for anyone to see...imo it detracts from being able to use the environ strategicly a great deal.</span> </p>