You MT Raid Group

[lCUBANOl]

Hi Im an fairly new to MT T7 raiding. I come from Venekor pvp server so we are a little behind in raiding compared to most servrs. But I was just curious what you guys use in your groups? We only have the queynos classes so I use Mystic, Warden/Fury, Templar, Dirge, Swashi, and myself. Is that about right or there other classes that might be more useful?

[Ep]

that'll be your mainstay mt group then, actually seem pretty lucky to get all the required ppl =p

[Oshef]

You're going to want the warden over the Fury. If there's no warden you might want to try to throw in a pali or conjurer until you get some gear for the extra mit. When that happens you may have a little less hate, and your raid may have to slow the DPS a little but survivability is the key until you get equipped.

[Gharik]

A warden is always preferable to a Fury in the MT group. Group should be Guardian/Warden/Shaman/Cleric/Bard/X. Our last spot used to go to an SK for the Mitigation increase on the MT, but now it either goes to a Coercer (for power) or an Assassin (for Shadows) depending.

[Ji]

<p>One tank, 2 healers, hate gain (swashy or assassin), one mana pump and a conjuror for mit buffs, resists and magic leash.</p>

[Ji]

If the raid is substantially over powered with dps then take out the conjy and put in another hate transfer.

[Duave]

Most of the time, the ideal group is: Guardian Templar(stoneskin, buff more hp than inquis since inquis use STA and templar buff straight hp) Defiler(more buffs than mystic, bolster is raid wide) Swashbuckler/Assassin (hate) Dirge (hate/stoneskin/power regen) Coercer (hate/power regen) This should vary though, like if you're doing Crab a wardens cold ward is uber. If the raid doesnt do much DPS you could lose the coercer and put in a mit buffer (pally/SK)

[FallenFeather]

<cite>Duave wrote:</cite><blockquote>Most of the time, the ideal group is: Guardian Templar(stoneskin, buff more hp than inquis since inquis use STA and templar buff straight hp) Defiler(more buffs than mystic ) <span style="color: #0066ff">-how much more is it?  Its just a bit  more health init? </span> Swashbuckler/Assassin (hate) Dirge (hate/stoneskin/power regen) -<span style="color: #0066ff">Are MT guards having trouble holding aggro under CoB ? if not must be an important member to have in your group as it will save you some pwr</span> Coercer (hate/power regen) This should vary though, like if you're doing Crab a wardens cold ward is uber. If the raid doesnt do much DPS you could lose the coercer and put in a mit buffer (pally/SK) </blockquote>Just added a few questions to what you wrote Duave its maybe a litle of topic but oh well, would still give me a nice hint or two and for eveyone else interested. Would say you have the right classes OT , a conj or pally could work as an replacement maybe if one your heals gone missing, but sounds like a pretty much solid MT group.

[Ji]

I'm gonna check but I'm pretty sure a conjies group mit buffs are much higher than a pally/sk. The benefit would be amends but that couold be cast from another group.

[Woruud]

Depending on overall raid makeup you will want different configs Guard / Zerker, Templar, Defiler, Warden, Coercer (thoughtsnap, 43% hate gain, dps buff, mana), and Swash/Dirge/Assassin Assassin / Swash when there is poor agrro control in rest of raid, dirge for tough named for extra proc rate, stoneskin, and general utility buffs. Trash clearing (please don't hate on me)  Put Paladin and SK in MT group dropping the Guard / Zerker and the Dirge/Swash/Assassin have the SK mit buff the paladin and have the paladin amends the SK; this allows the raid force to absolutely unload on trash mobs, then go back to Guard / Zerker for named [preferably a guard] and Swash/Dirge/Assassin.   

[khufure]

<cite>Jixx wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm gonna check but I'm pretty sure a conjies group mit buffs are much higher than a pally/sk. The benefit would be amends but that couold be cast from another group.</blockquote> Well this is just wrong.  Mitigation is pretty much useless anyway.  But here is the math: Paladin mit buff is ~400 single target OR ~700 non-fighters group.  Conjuror is a little bit above 400 group.  The conjuror also buffs power and resists.  I think power is about 600 and cold/heat are 1000.  These are in addition to the geotic seal buff that is 400 mit.. but is actually 400 everything (include resists). Paladin can buff a lot more.  Besides healing that stacks with other healers, a Paladin can buff your unmitigated block% with his avoidance substantially.  Other buffs include : +34 all skills group (!), group melee proc (x2 vs. undead),  group 60 str buff, group 80 wisdom buff, amends to 1 healer, and ability to tank in an emergency. Best MT group for author/PVP: Guardian Mystic Warden Templar Dirge Swashbuckler/Paladin/Illusionist

[Snorm]

<p>In terms of survivability in a good only raid, you could put in a brawler for the avoid buff. I've generally seen better results in terms of survivability from having a brawler's avoid vs. having some mit and avoid from a crusader. Brawlers also have some decent melee buffs, as I recall. Without access to any of the evil classes (particularly a coercer) I'd say those are your main options. </p><p>Also, if you have a decently geared pally that you can keep alive, the suggestion of having them tank the trash and the guard tank the names isn't bad at all. Particularly if you (the guard) are set up for pure survivability and don't have really (really) nice gear, amends will produce much better hate. This is nice because on hard named fights, you have a defensively set up guard tanking, and on the trash DPS fests you get the better hate to speed things up, which plays to everyone's strengths.</p><p>Snorm -- 70 Guard</p>

[lCUBANOl]

Timmeh@Nektulos wrote: <blockquote><cite>Jixx wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm gonna check but I'm pretty sure a conjies group mit buffs are much higher than a pally/sk. The benefit would be amends but that couold be cast from another group.</blockquote> Well this is just wrong.  Mitigation is pretty much useless anyway.  But here is the math: Paladin mit buff is ~400 single target OR ~700 non-fighters group.  Conjuror is a little bit above 400 group.  The conjuror also buffs power and resists.  I think power is about 600 and cold/heat are 1000.  These are in addition to the geotic seal buff that is 400 mit.. but is actually 400 everything (include resists). Paladin can buff a lot more.  Besides healing that stacks with other healers, a Paladin can buff your unmitigated block% with his avoidance substantially.  Other buffs include : +34 all skills group (!), group melee proc (x2 vs. undead),  group 60 str buff, group 80 wisdom buff, amends to 1 healer, and ability to tank in an emergency. Best MT group for author/PVP: Guardian Mystic Warden Templar Dirge Swashbuckler/Paladin/Illusionist </blockquote>Thanks for all the responses guys. I have actually been using the set up listed right above and that seems to be workin alright!

[Oshef]

Timmeh@Nektulos wrote: <blockquote><cite>Jixx wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm gonna check but I'm pretty sure a conjies group mit buffs are much higher than a pally/sk. The benefit would be amends but that couold be cast from another group.</blockquote> Well this is just wrong.  Mitigation is pretty much useless anyway.  But here is the math: Paladin mit buff is ~400 single target OR ~700 non-fighters group.  Conjuror is a little bit above 400 group.  The conjuror also buffs power and resists.  I think power is about 600 and cold/heat are 1000.  These are in addition to the geotic seal buff that is 400 mit.. but is actually 400 everything (include resists). Paladin can buff a lot more.  Besides healing that stacks with other healers, a Paladin can buff your unmitigated block% with his avoidance substantially.  Other buffs include : +34 all skills group (!), group melee proc (x2 vs. undead),  group 60 str buff, group 80 wisdom buff, amends to 1 healer, and ability to tank in an emergency. Best MT group for author/PVP: Guardian Mystic Warden Templar Dirge Swashbuckler/Paladin/Illusionist </blockquote>... this is just wrong? Mitigation isn't useless. Unless of course you have 10k. But you don't have 10k, and neither does the OP. Conj can give just as much mit as crusaders if their aa's are in the right place. And they give extra elemental resists which would be nice if you didn't have a warden. Pali is still the best choice given the above statement Especially if the Pali has his aa's in the block line.  This is assuming that survivability is the big issue.. if it's not then the swashy is head and shoulders above others.

[Noaani]

<cite>Oshef wrote:</cite><blockquote>Timmeh@Nektulos wrote: <blockquote><cite>Jixx wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm gonna check but I'm pretty sure a conjies group mit buffs are much higher than a pally/sk. The benefit would be amends but that couold be cast from another group.</blockquote> Well this is just wrong.  Mitigation is pretty much useless anyway.  But here is the math: Paladin mit buff is ~400 single target OR ~700 non-fighters group.  Conjuror is a little bit above 400 group.  The conjuror also buffs power and resists.  I think power is about 600 and cold/heat are 1000.  These are in addition to the geotic seal buff that is 400 mit.. but is actually 400 everything (include resists). Paladin can buff a lot more.  Besides healing that stacks with other healers, a Paladin can buff your unmitigated block% with his avoidance substantially.  Other buffs include : +34 all skills group (!), group melee proc (x2 vs. undead),  group 60 str buff, group 80 wisdom buff, amends to 1 healer, and ability to tank in an emergency. Best MT group for author/PVP: Guardian Mystic Warden Templar Dirge Swashbuckler/Paladin/Illusionist </blockquote>... this is just wrong? Mitigation isn't useless. Unless of course you have 10k. But you don't have 10k, and neither does the OP. Conj can give just as much mit as crusaders if their aa's are in the right place. And they give extra elemental resists which would be nice if you didn't have a warden. Pali is still the best choice given the above statement Especially if the Pali has his aa's in the block line.  This is assuming that survivability is the big issue.. if it's not then the swashy is head and shoulders above others. </blockquote><p>While mitigation is not useless, putting a conj in the MT group for mitigation is rather silly if a crusader of either flavour is on hand.</p><p>A conj will buff the MT for 326 mitigation and to each resist (more to heat and cold), will give the tank 522 power, and will give him a small melee heat DoT. A crusader will buff it for 425, gives the tank a second chance to avoid being hit on more than half the hits they take, will buff the MTs str and wis for 54, and give them a divine melee proc. Paladins can also heal the MT better from the MT group than they can from any other group.</p><p>In order for a conj to put their AAs in the right place to be able to buff a tank enough for them to be worth the spot in the MT group, they are missing out on doing what they are there for, namely DPS. in order for a paladin in particular to buff a MT, which they will always do better than a conj, they are putting their AAs exactly where they should be to perform their main function on a raid, and would likely have the same AAS (KoS ones, if not EoF) if they were in the MT group or not.</p><p>The only time I can think of a conj being more useful than a paladin in the MT group is if there is a mob that dispells all fighter class buffs, but such a mob does not exist yet. There is noting that a conj can buff the MT for that a paladin can not do better, at least not when broken down to survivability and hate generation, which is all a tank needs on a raid. Therefore, a conj has no place in the MT group if a crusader is around.</p>

[khufure]

<cite>Oshef wrote:</cite><blockquote>... this is just wrong? Mitigation isn't useless. Unless of course you have 10k. But you don't have 10k, and neither does the OP. Conj can give just as much mit as crusaders if their aa's are in the right place. And they give extra elemental resists which would be nice if you didn't have a warden. Pali is still the best choice given the above statement Especially if the Pali has his aa's in the block line.  This is assuming that survivability is the big issue.. if it's not then the swashy is head and shoulders above others. </blockquote>Yes it is.  Mitigation > 60% is just about useless and actually HARMFUL.   Why?  Because compared to HP and avoidance increases putting your efforts to mitigation hurts survivability.  We're not in KOS anymore.  Diminishing curves of effectiveness.

[Oshef]

Haha Timmeh.. I'm not gonna argue with you. You keep thinking that. And I clearly said that a paladin is better then a conj.. if you would have read the post you would see he is on a pvp server, and shockingly paladins aren't HUGE on a pvp server. He can't have SK's in his raid, so it is a very real possibility that he gets into a situation without a crusader available. In that situation, i was stating that a conj would be helpful to survivability - which is a true statement. Meh, Mwink take what you want from these boards - people here are often very misinformed. Try it out yourself imo. I'm done trying to help.

[Zo]

Firstly, note that I'm from a PVP server. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Your RL should be switching groups around as per the fights If you're struggling with survivability or a tough name then a defensive group of: MT, Mystic, Templar, Warden, Dirge, Pally (PoA and avoidance buff) Long fight - double power regen MT, Mystic, Templar, Warden, Dirge, Illy Extra hate - named fight MT, Mystic, Templar, Warden, Dirge, Swash Extra hate - trash fight MT, Mystic, Templar, Dirge, Swash, Illy (double attack AA)

[khufure]

<cite>Oshef wrote:</cite><blockquote>Haha Timmeh.. I'm not gonna argue with you. You keep thinking that. </blockquote>That's fine.  Think what you want.  But don't misinform others. If anyone is confused as to what stats matter most to top tanks, simply look at what the top tanks are equipping.  The vast majority are concentrating on > 10K hp, block/defense/parry, resists, and hate procs.  Not many care about mitigation anymore.  Don't believe me?  Look them up.  Check out the tanks for the top guilds.

[Oshef]

I hate to argue on the guardian boards.. I also hate to argue with an assassin on the guardian boards about the nuances of tanking.

[denboj]

<p>Little off topic, i realy hate it when someone thinks that anyone of another class arent entitled to an opinion, in this case pretty specifik though. In reality from groups most other classes than guadians in this case have much more experiense in seeing what other guardians are doing, right or wrong. other classes has probbaly grouped with hundreds of guardians and therefore seen both the best and the worst of any situation while the guardian usually only have himself as refference. </p><p> Also, i realise that this is a pvp server discussion so not as important. However i kind of like Furys in mt groups. Often in my guild we go Fury, Swash, Dirge, guard, templar, mystic//defiler. 2 reasons for using the fury realy. 1 is that hes dps buff on the swash generates more agro for the guardian. Secondly the Urchin seems to totally own any mana draining mob. </p><p> Oh and btw, finally i agree with Timmeh to some extend. In cases of non geared tanks it seems reasonable to add mitigation buffs, however there is a reason that most top guild tanks are specced away from the wis line now. Simply that those extra 0.025 % mitigation isnt worth it, and honestly, The situations where we would trade off anything for more mitigation = put a conj or pal in mt group is 0. We used to do it half a year ago when our gear sucked more though. </p>

[Oshef]

Alright, I REALLY didn't wanna get into this discussion - especially not on this thread. A) I hope English is your second language. B) No assassin knows how to play guardian better then me. (not saying I'm the best Guardian in the world, but I've been doing it for a while. I like to think I know what I'm doing.) C)Look at it this way. If you had 50% mitigation, you'd be taking half damage. Adding 50% more mitigation doesn't "double" the value; it goes from "half damage" to "no damage". To actually double the value you instead only go to 75%; the first 50% halved the damage you're taking and the second 25% halved it again. That's *increasing* returns- each percentage is more valuable than the previous one. This is where the "diminishing" returns comes in. To compensate for the fact that percentages of mit get more useful as you get more, they become harder to acquire- the numerical increase necessary to go up one percent increases. The curve makes it so that each *point* of mitigation is equally valuable, compensating for the fact that each *percentage point* of mitigation is *not* equally valuable. or do the math yourself: Mit % = 1 - 1/((M/10500)*3 +1) Where M is the raw mitigation number. either way - mitigation is not useless.

[khufure]

Let's get back to the point: go for the low hanging fruit.  Hint : the low hanging fruit isn't mitigation in diminshing returns curve!!!!!  Especially considering your temp mit buffs.  You seem to understand the math enough to quote it.  How can you believe mitigation returns more oomph back on your resource investment?  Are you trying to argue the word 'useless'?  Ok let me rephrase my statment. <b><span style="font-size: small">It is extremely foolish and in fact detrimental to survivability to spend resources on mitigation past 60%.</span></b> BTW I really hate it when people have to use "you're not my class" arguments.  You've done this twice now, apparently thinking you are proving something or winning argument points.  I do have a L70 tank alt, and have lots of raid experience with many different guardians with many different forms of gear.   You may know how to push your CA buttons better than I can.  I'm not arguing that.  Unfortunately for you, we are talking about game mechanics and survivability not pushing CAs.

[Oshef]

It isn't foolish or detrimental to get past 60% mitigation. Nothing changed in EoF to "nerf" mitigation. It's still uncontested damage reduction. The reason the "top tanks" are speccing away from the WIS line is because after EoF parry is actually worth something. Before EoF you couldn't parry orange mobs, even debuffed. Now you can. Parry -vs- mit is something to debate.. saying plain and simple that mitigation is useless past 60% is ridiculous. Or did you not READ my explanation at all? Or do you just not believe it? I don't understand.

[denboj]

<p>oshef, your math is theoretically corret. if you mitigate 50 % and get a 25 % mitigatoin gian you would actually mitigate 50 % more than you did before. The entire issue is that it is now how [Removed for Content] works.</p><p> When you mitigatie my base mitigation is 5452 % wich is 62.2 % </p><p>now if i short temp buff abit up to 6213 i will hit 65 % (wich is a 3.8 % benefit)</p><p>7317 = 67 % wich is a 4.8 % benefit from 1865 mitigation.</p><p> however from 6213 to 7317 you only get a 2 % upgrade. </p><p>i suck to much at this (european=danish) hour to do the math, but blindingly obvious it isnt reverse linear as you claim. the problem in the algorhytm sp? (i am danish so english isnt my native language) is that it is aiming for 80 % and not for 100 %. it is however totally not taking that into account so the closer you get to your 80 % mark your reverse gain will be smaller and smaller. I do realise that you would have been correct if the devs developing the system would have had any mathematical skill, but obviously they didnt so your blind faith proves incorrect. </p>

[khufure]

<cite>Oshef wrote:</cite><blockquote>It isn't foolish or detrimental to get past 60% mitigation. Nothing changed in EoF to "nerf" mitigation. It's still uncontested damage reduction. ... I don't understand. </blockquote>It's simple.  Mitigation is just too expensive to upgrade or even bother with once you are in fabled gear.  The benefit gained from increasing mitigation past 60% is negligible for warriors with their temp-mit buffs compared to avoidance.. Don't believe me?  Simply parse a week's worth of raiding with mitigation gear and one with avoidance/hp gear.  Of course, try to keep the MT group similar and similar debuffs.  A week should be a big enough sample size to avoid these problems.

[Aristigon]

I think the point here is this, after you reach beyond a certain level of mitigation, increased points in mitigation provide a much smaller return of damage absorption capability for each new point added. So after you reach this level (the value of which is debatable) you can attain much more benefit from focusing on other stats which will provide more benefit for tanking than increasing mitigation. I didn't see anyone say Mitigation was WORTHLESS past the 6000 value, just that increasing beyond that point is ILLOGICAL when much more benefit could be gained by focusing on improving a skill which provides more benefit for each point gained.

[Yimway]

Noaani wrote:<blockquote><p>While mitigation is not useless, putting a conj in the MT group for mitigation is rather silly if a crusader of either flavour is on hand.</p><p>A conj will buff the MT for 326 mitigation and to each resist (more to heat and cold), will give the tank 522 power, and will give him a small melee heat DoT. A crusader will buff it for 425, gives the tank a second chance to avoid being hit on more than half the hits they take, will buff the MTs str and wis for 54, and give them a divine melee proc. Paladins can also heal the MT better from the MT group than they can from any other group.</p> </blockquote> I disagree... A crusader adds slightly more mitigation but for sacrifice of utility.   The crusader avoidance buff cancels the guardian's avoidance buff.  i feel the 12.6 parry from the guardian buff is better than the crusader buff. Furthermore, you crusader is FAR more valuable in a dps group lowering THIER hate. If heals are an issue (situational encounters), hydromancy on the conji far out parses pally heals (remember to factor the dammage prevention from thier intercept ward). Furthermore the conji provides sacrifice power and health when needed. Our MT group usually looks like this: Guard Conj Defiler Templar Dirge Swash We often don't have the dirge (50% at best) and we pull in an assasin instead for more hate loc. The OP asked for a qeynos MT group build: Guard Conj Mystic Templar Dirge Swash We've parsed 6 ways from sunday on if the conj should be there vs a druid or crusader.   We've found they are viable alternatives, but present too many negative reprocusions for placing them in MT group where they are FAR more effective in other groups. You're milage may vary...

[gfx]

Guardian/Warden/Templar/Mystic/Troubador/Paladin. Conjuror can take the Paladins or the Troubadors place if they aren't on. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[gfx]

an MT group can easily be very successfull without an Assassin/Swashbuckler.

[Aristigon]

Hanes@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>Guardian/Warden/Templar/Mystic/Troubador/Paladin. Conjuror can take the Paladins or the Troubadors place if they aren't on. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote> Where in god's name is your hate increase with that setup? Is the pally tanking? I'd like to think you just mixed up dirge and troub.

[khufure]

<cite>Yimway wrote:</cite><blockquote>I disagree... A crusader adds slightly more mitigation but for sacrifice of utility.   The crusader avoidance buff cancels the guardian's avoidance buff.  i feel the 12.6 parry from the guardian buff is better than the crusader buff. Furthermore, you crusader is FAR more valuable in a dps group lowering THIER hate. If heals are an issue (situational encounters), hydromancy on the conji far out parses pally heals (remember to factor the dammage prevention from thier intercept ward). Furthermore the conji provides sacrifice power and health when needed. Our MT group usually looks like this: Guard Conj Defiler Templar Dirge Swash We often don't have the dirge (50% at best) and we pull in an assasin instead for more hate loc. The OP asked for a qeynos MT group build: Guard Conj Mystic Templar Dirge Swash We've parsed 6 ways from sunday on if the conj should be there vs a druid or crusader.   We've found they are viable alternatives, but present too many negative reprocusions for placing them in MT group where they are FAR more effective in other groups. You're milage may vary... </blockquote>I don't even know where to start.  Ok yes I do <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.  Let me start by saying I have both a conjuror and paladin alt so I feel like I know these classes pretty well. Issue 1 - 12.6 parry is better than 54% of Paladin avoidance. I find it impossible to conceive of a situation where 12.6 parry is better than 54% of a Paladin's avoidance.  Were you aware that with Paladin EOF AA the Paladin has the greatest block % in the game?  Close to 30%.  In EQ2, block is the only unmitigated avoidance.  Epics gain +hit making non-block avoidance much less effective.  In other words, block pwns everything else in epic combat. Issue 2 - Hydromancer heals more than a Paladin. A Paladin specd in 70% heal crits + master heal spells + EOF Heal line heals more than the hydromancer pet.  The only thing the hydro has on a Paladin is it can be resummoned for unlimited healing power.  However, I don't see how this utility trumps intercedes or stackable wards (w/mystic) preventing damage in the first place.  And heck, while we're at it see Issue 1 above.  I don't know where/what you parsed but it is not uncommon for a Paladin avoidance to stop 15-20% of damage on a tank before it even lands.  I'm talking about end boss raid mobs not trash.  This is probably even higher on trash fights. I have not parsed hydromancer avoidance in a raid because frankly a conjuror is a dps machine.  No raid conjurer I have ever met is specd into hydro.  Why would you make a conjuror a crappy healer instead of a dps machine? Issue 3 - Hate You aren't going to do very well without multiple bards in a raid.  Most of EOF requires blade dance (bard AA AOE immunity) and superior hate management. Issue 4 - Druid vs. Conj in MT Warden preferred, fury if you don't have a warden.  The rest are not even close.  I guess you could argue illusionist in MT group instead.  Or Paladin, for certain mobs.   But a warden is by far the best choice.  Is your warden just not very good? The short list of what a warden brings: fast cures, group heals, heals over time, +melee skills on guardian (helps with hate _a lot_).

[khufure]

Hanes@Nagafen wrote: <blockquote>an MT group can easily be very successfull without an Assassin/Swashbuckler. </blockquote> In non-PVP servers, there's two setups that you see over and over again.  Both share some classes: Guardian/ (Berserker) Defiler/ (Mystic) Templar Dirge Warden / (Fury) And the 6th spot depends on the guild setup.  If you've got 2 troubs and a  solid 2nd tank group for AE/add hate control this spot is usually a coercer.  The coercer provides extra power, +dps on the MT/dirge, and heal crits among other things. Coercer If your raid doesn't have some of these requirements listed above you'll probably see Swashbuckler/Assassin This is because the swashy/assassin setup provides ~500+ hate/s to the tank.  (2000hate/s avg. * 26% transfer avg).  The coercer's added few % in hate gain don't provide near ~500 hate/s.  No, two hate buffs don't stack.  One hate buff (biggest) + one hate transfer. == Any other setup just doesn't really hold up too well under load.  By load I mean  > 15k dps and EOF raid zones.  We currently have topped 30k+ dps and 25k+ zone parses, and I know some guilds that claim to do 30k+ zones and I believe them.  So how on earth are you going to keep hate and keep the MT up with less than optimal MT group?

[Macross_JR]

Ok, I'm sorry but I need to but in here.  As to the Guard who thinks he know's best over the Assassin, you might not.  My first toon was my Guardian, I have played the game from the very beginning. I also have a Brigand, started that one later on in the game.  I know how to play both very proficiently.  There are other classes that I have not played, but, I have a very good feel on how they work.  My point being is just because one person does not play a particular class, doesn't mean he does not know how the class works. Now, I don't raid that much more on my Guard, but take my Brigand for guild needs, but I still know how to tank with the best of them.  Now to get to the OP's original topic.  Here is my ideal MT Raid Group: Guardian Templar Defiler Dirge Illusionist Assassin For the life of me I can't stand having more then 2 healers in the MT group.  And I'm sorry, but if you don't have some kind of Hate Transfer and Hate Increase you are going to [Removed for Content] your Raids over-all DPS.  Having both will let your DPS go harder and go faster.  Some would rather have a Coercer over the Dirge for the Hate Increase but the Dirge brings more over-all benefits to the MT group.  Plus the Dirge will give the MT Raid Group DKTM, which is one of the BEST, if not the BEST, Bard AA Abilities. I can understand some people wanting that third type of healer in there, for the other stat buffs, defensive buffs, or what have you, but Templar/Defiler should be the only two you need, with having the Dirge and Illusionist. Oh yeah, back to that whole get as much mitigation as you can thing.  Once you are in Fabled Gear if you still need the Wisdom line you are a [Removed for Content] and only gimping yourself.  Your AA points would be better spent down the Agi or Int lines for defense/parry.  The diminishing returns over 60% is just not worth working towards.

[irongun324]

I am not from a PVP Server, however my guild is Qeynos aligned so my experience in T7 raiding has been entirely with qeynos classes.  When we raid, our MT group setup is almost identical every raid.  But the 6th spot rotates frequently depending on encounter.  Templar Mystic Swashie Dirge Guardian (me) And our 6th spot is typically a paladin for the extra mitigation yes, but I think moreso for the hate reduction he can put on our mystic.  We rarely have a warden in the MT group and frankly sometimes it's due to lack of healers in the raid period and the warden is better utilized in a group that doesn't have a healer.  Also once the raid mob has been debuffed, it's not uncommon for the defiler or templar to concentrate on healing me alone when the other has to do something else (mystic debuffing, or either helping heal another group, etc.)  With this setup we have broken 19k parses on mobs, and about 14-15k zonewide.   I realize those aren't great numbers, but we're still learning and frankly Hate has been a huge issue for us and our mages have not been able to go all out all the time.  There are several fixes for this, first a foremost is group setup with a dirge and swashie for the hate benefits is what we do.  Second, I've maintained my STR 4/4/8/8 STA 5/4/8/8 KoS achievement spec for the sole purpose of increased DPS = increased Hate, and the raw increased hate gain from the STR line.   Lastly is the other groups in the raid and their setup, and how they assist and when they start attacking a raid mob.  We use a main assist player (lately a wizard, and he does a fine job) And as long as he gives me about 3-5 seconds to sit there and generate some hate before the raid engages full out... I don't have hate issues.   My other thread in here ("AA respec decision, need input&quot<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> is discussing some other hate control ideas atm.  So that's my input from a Qeynos aligned guild on a non-PVP server.  We just cleared half of FTH last night, parsing 13-16k most fights, and obtained our first fabled set piece (silly paladin forearms *sigh*)

[UGAdawg]

Githil@Permafrost wrote: <blockquote> For the life of me I can't stand having more then 2 healers in the MT group.  And I'm sorry, but if you don't have some kind of Hate Transfer and Hate Increase you are going to [Removed for Content] your Raids over-all DPS.  Having both will let your DPS go harder and go faster.  Some would rather have a Coercer over the Dirge for the Hate Increase but the Dirge brings more over-all benefits to the MT group.  Plus the Dirge will give the MT Raid Group DKTM, which is one of the BEST, if not the BEST, Bard AA Abilities. Oh yeah, back to that whole get as much mitigation as you can thing.  Once you are in Fabled Gear if you still need the Wisdom line you are a [Removed for Content] and only gimping yourself.  Your AA points would be better spent down the Agi or Int lines for defense/parry.  The diminishing returns over 60% is just not worth working towards. </blockquote>Having 3 healers in the maintank group is a must for EOF content. Defieler, warden, templar are a sick combo that provide not only buffs, but group heals and reactives or soulwards. Each healing class is good at a particular aspect of healing. All 3 together cover all the bases. Mit is over rated at the high end of the game. Personally, I have lost almost 500 Mit while picking up avoidence. Avoidence makes a huge difference in the game after EOF was released and I can tell a difference in all the raid zones in the game. It's not hard to reach 60% avoidence self-buffed as a guardian. But, it is hard to reach 60%+ Avoidence. In a group setting, guardians are reaching 70% Avoidence. It makes a HUGE difference in survivability. If you're just starting to raid and don't have a lot of threat-proc gear, you're going to want 2 hate transfers in the main tank group. If you're in Qeynos, do the templar, mystic, warden, guardian/zerker, swash, and dirge. If you are really having power issues, then throw in the coercer, but, remember that your raid force needs power regen especially when you're only parsing 10k on mobs with 1million+hps. So try and spread out the love. Raid tanking is a fun and challenging task. As your guild gets better geared, so will you. So tanking, and surviving damage will get better over time. Get yourself a good tower shield and do something like STR+INT or AGI+INT and have fun!