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Grayspirit
03-01-2007, 06:39 AM
<p>I enjoy MTing in PvP, but which is best in T7 pvp?</p><p>Berserkers get a 20% melee reactive taunt, plus 5 taunts (including the only blue AE taunt) and good dps.</p><p>Guardians get a 50% reactive taunt, plus 6 taunts, different abilites to put on group mates and low dps.</p><p>But which is best in group vs group PvP though?</p>

Oneira
03-01-2007, 07:46 AM
I play a Guardian on Venekor who's dealing with T7 atm though I'm not 70 yet, and I'll keep my toon as it is, but in all honesty my advice to you is go with the Berserker. Berserkers have much better DPS and that is the clincher for PvP.  Guards and Zerkers have more than enough taunts for PvP.  The extra health and defense from things like like ToS that Guards get doesn't mean a whole lot.  Stone Sphere is certainly very nice, and as a Guard you can do a pretty nifty job of keeping your party members alive, but really in the end, Zerkers are better at PvP than Guards hands down. 

sprogn
03-01-2007, 08:24 AM
<p>63 Berserker on Naggy.  I haven't yet met a guardian of similar level who can tank something I can't.  I've heard at endgame, there are a few mobs that only guardians can handle.  Other L70 Berserkers have told me with the right group setup and gear they can tank anything in the game.  Guess I'll find out which is true.</p><p> As for PVP, it's true, a guardian will lock the enemy down a little easier, but gibe works just as well for me - plus I like being able to damage up there with the swashies and warlocks while taking a beating.  For me, there's no contest.  Berserker all the way.</p><p> No disrespect to guardians who are excellent in what they do best <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

Norrsken
03-01-2007, 08:43 AM
<cite>sprognak wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>63 Berserker on Naggy.  I haven't yet met a guardian of similar level who can tank something I can't.  I've heard at endgame, there are a few mobs that only guardians can handle.  Other L70 Berserkers have told me with the right group setup and gear they can tank anything in the game.  Guess I'll find out which is true.</p><p> As for PVP, it's true, a guardian will lock the enemy down a little easier, but gibe works just as well for me - plus I like being able to damage up there with the swashies and warlocks while taking a beating.  For me, there's no contest.  Berserker all the way.</p><p> No disrespect to guardians who are excellent in what they do best <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote>Also both crusaders can in the right group and right gear tank everything in the game. Mob wise. In pvp, the warriors are kings because they have actual taunts. And as far as the difference between them, I'd say I prefer the guardian to a zerker, but the difference in tanking ability for pvp between the two warriors is not too big. As the best tank pvper I know said "I miss my player buffs, zerks dont buff [Removed for Content]" when he's playing his zerker (in comparison to his guardian)

sprogn
03-01-2007, 10:31 AM
<cite>Norrsken wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>sprognak wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>63 Berserker on Naggy.  I haven't yet met a guardian of similar level who can tank something I can't.  I've heard at endgame, there are a few mobs that only guardians can handle.  Other L70 Berserkers have told me with the right group setup and gear they can tank anything in the game.  Guess I'll find out which is true.</p><p> As for PVP, it's true, a guardian will lock the enemy down a little easier, but gibe works just as well for me - plus I like being able to damage up there with the swashies and warlocks while taking a beating.  For me, there's no contest.  Berserker all the way.</p><p> No disrespect to guardians who are excellent in what they do best <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote>Also both crusaders can in the right group and right gear tank everything in the game. Mob wise. In pvp, the warriors are kings because they have actual taunts. And as far as the difference between them, I'd say I prefer the guardian to a zerker, but the difference in tanking ability for pvp between the two warriors is not too big. As the best tank pvper I know said "I miss my player buffs, zerks dont buff [I cannot control my vocabulary]" when he's playing his zerker (in comparison to his guardian) </blockquote><p>A ton of group incombat regen  (I'm still using my T5 master as can't find a decent T7 one yet, and it's +62 with no AA adding to it).</p><p>Group berserk buff (+25 DPS +25 Attack speed proc)</p><p>Group strength buff (around 130 STR)</p><p>Avoidance buff on group member (50% for them to use your avoidance)</p><p>Ok, it's no Templar buff, but in a 1 minute fight that's effectively +620 HP or +900 HP with the T7 master with the regen alone...</p>

xXBubblez
03-01-2007, 10:37 AM
<span style="color: #66ffff">i prefer a gaurdian as my mt in pvp personally.  Zerkers are good too, just my preference is the gaurdian and that might be because i'm a clothy.  The MT doesn't need to put out a ton of dps if his grp mates stay up and dish it out.  The guardian does a better job at keeping aggro plus all their intercepts and such make them ideal in my situations.  And that lock down ability they have where they can root someone at them is pretty nice too</span>

Norrsken
03-01-2007, 11:27 AM
<cite>sprognak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Norrsken wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>sprognak wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>63 Berserker on Naggy.  I haven't yet met a guardian of similar level who can tank something I can't.  I've heard at endgame, there are a few mobs that only guardians can handle.  Other L70 Berserkers have told me with the right group setup and gear they can tank anything in the game.  Guess I'll find out which is true.</p><p> As for PVP, it's true, a guardian will lock the enemy down a little easier, but gibe works just as well for me - plus I like being able to damage up there with the swashies and warlocks while taking a beating.  For me, there's no contest.  Berserker all the way.</p><p> No disrespect to guardians who are excellent in what they do best <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote>Also both crusaders can in the right group and right gear tank everything in the game. Mob wise. In pvp, the warriors are kings because they have actual taunts. And as far as the difference between them, I'd say I prefer the guardian to a zerker, but the difference in tanking ability for pvp between the two warriors is not too big. As the best tank pvper I know said "I miss my player buffs, zerks dont buff [I cannot control my vocabulary]" when he's playing his zerker (in comparison to his guardian) </blockquote><p>A ton of group incombat regen  (I'm still using my T5 master as can't find a decent T7 one yet, and it's +62 with no AA adding to it).</p><p>Group berserk buff (+25 DPS +25 Attack speed proc)</p><p>Group strength buff (around 130 STR)</p><p>Avoidance buff on group member (50% for them to use your avoidance)</p><p>Ok, it's no Templar buff, but in a 1 minute fight that's effectively +620 HP or +900 HP with the T7 master with the regen alone...</p></blockquote>In t7, 600-900 is a good twohander autoattack hit. The guardian has two aviodance buffs. Not to mention that the proc taunt when hit makes your regular taunts better.

tass
03-01-2007, 02:05 PM
If I want a tank for pve if a gaurd is available he gets the spot. Even if the zerk and gaurd are the same the guard still gets the spot because a guard is the tank. If I want a tank for pvp a guard is the tank. They whip taunts and interrupts everywhere. Dont need a tank that can help dps thats what the mages and scouts are for I want lots and lots of taunts.

Splintered
03-01-2007, 02:18 PM
if I have a choice i'll take a guard anyday over a zerker.. but, one key thing to remember. A well played zerker can tank better then a not so well played guardian, but if both are equally geared and skilled, I would take the guardian to MT, both pve and pvp.

xXBubblez
03-01-2007, 02:24 PM
<cite>Splintered wrote:</cite><blockquote>if I have a choice i'll take a guard anyday over a zerker.. but, one key thing to remember. A well played zerker can tank better then a not so well played guardian, but if both are equally geared and skilled, I would take the guardian to MT, both pve and pvp.</blockquote> <span style="color: #66ffff">lol yea i would expect everyone to chose the more skilled player to be their mt </span><img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

tass
03-01-2007, 02:32 PM
I actually ran into a zerk about lv 21 once that didnt know what taunt was. and obviosly he couldnt read or see cause we had to start trying to describe the picture of the spell lol.

chrystolr
03-01-2007, 04:22 PM
Berzerkers out damage any other plate tank by alot. They have alot of utilities including a revive right after they die, a few of them ive heard. Heals as well. As a ranger I have hard times with berzerkers because of there offensive combined with there plate armor. I've died a few times because I couldn't keep up with the damage they were doing to me while they mitigated all my attacks. That plus getting hit for 500+ damage by arrows as I tried to use my CA was pretty bad too. If you want offense as a tank then berzerker is the way to go.

Myxzptlk
03-02-2007, 08:06 PM
<p>If you know you are always going to have a group of people to play with, maybe Gaurdian is the one for you. In my experience, sometimes you don't always get a group, or you get a couple of other people to play with that don't really make a full balanced group. I know for solo pvp, i have never met an equal or even a few levels higher gaurdian who could even hold a candle to the damage i can put out as a zerker, and the thing about pvp taunts is they are not perma taunts like in pve, where the person has to stay locked on you until someone out damages your hate gain.... you taunt and that lasts a few seconds, then they can do what they want, so you're not going to be totally always holding the people your fighting to hitting you. </p><p>Now zerker is very powerful offensively and defensively, and has good taunts to boot. I would go with zerker...but then again, i'm biased. But still, often my damage is on par with a DPS classes damage, and my defenses are near on par with the gaurdian. THe main problem with gaurdian's is that they can't kill anything. It may take someone forever to kill them, but eventually they can wear through a gaurdian, where as a zerker will kill someone before they get worn down, most of the time. </p>

Norrsken
03-03-2007, 07:37 AM
<cite>chrystolred wrote:</cite><blockquote>Berzerkers out damage any other plate tank by alot. They have alot of utilities including a revive right after they die, a few of them ive heard. Heals as well. As a ranger I have hard times with berzerkers because of there offensive combined with there plate armor. I've died a few times because I couldn't keep up with the damage they were doing to me while they mitigated all my attacks. That plus getting hit for 500+ damage by arrows as I tried to use my CA was pretty bad too. If you want offense as a tank then berzerker is the way to go. </blockquote> The only toon I ever really had any problems with zerkers on is my assassin, and they have to be really good to be any problem at all. Their damage output is not that good, and they havent got any way to keep you next to them, and since they dont have much else to come up with, they ar emost of the time quite easily kited. Or you can run in, use your big attacks, snare them, run off, and stay out of LoS until your big attacks come back up, then finish them off. My sk has pretty much the same damage output as a zerker, and can self heal. Zerkers are nothing but free kills to him. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> However, both warriors have more taunts. A sk has 2, which is really [Removed for Content] up, since they simply removed one of the sks taunts from pvp. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Myxzptlk
03-06-2007, 11:00 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><cite>chrystolred wrote:</cite><blockquote>Berzerkers out damage any other plate tank by alot. They have alot of utilities including a revive right after they die, a few of them ive heard. Heals as well. As a ranger I have hard times with berzerkers because of there offensive combined with there plate armor. I've died a few times because I couldn't keep up with the damage they were doing to me while they mitigated all my attacks. That plus getting hit for 500+ damage by arrows as I tried to use my CA was pretty bad too. If you want offense as a tank then berzerker is the way to go. </blockquote> The only toon I ever really had any problems with zerkers on is my assassin, and they have to be really good to be any problem at all. Their damage output is not that good, and they havent got any way to keep you next to them, and since they dont have much else to come up with, they ar emost of the time quite easily kited. Or you can run in, use your big attacks, snare them, run off, and stay out of LoS until your big attacks come back up, then finish them off. My sk has pretty much the same damage output as a zerker, and can self heal. Zerkers are nothing but free kills to him. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> However, both warriors have more taunts. A sk has 2, which is really [I cannot control my vocabulary] up, since they simply removed one of the sks taunts from pvp. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote>That's odd, when i fight an sk i ask myself one thing. "Wonder if he has Mal touch up and i'll actually have a decent fight?" What tier are you talking? T7?

FinalOrder
03-07-2007, 01:54 AM
<p>Id perfer the Berserker. Then agian, I am a 69 Berserker <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Solo PvP, a berserker has an easier time soloing, because they have a respectable damage output. Most predators / rogues that are similar level and similar gear cannot beat me 1 vs 1. Most of the time, they even get the jump on me with their high damage / CC attack because I usually dont have see stealth totem on. We can temp buff our mitigation in an instant which mitigates most of their attacks. With a simple, cheap potion, you cannot be stunned. With a good bow and IF you have see invis, let them kite you.. hitting for 600 - 1300 (not including crit) will make them think twice with their chain armor.</p><p> Most sorcerers and summoners, I have had similar experience if you have moderate resists. Another cheap potion, you cannot be rooted.  With your stuns (you have 3 stuns, 2 are knockbacks that cannot be immunified (is that a word?)) and you have 2 attacks that interrupt. Also, you get a stifle attack. Thats a good repoitire of skills to keep a mage locked down if you remain calm and dont spam all the attacks at once. Let rampage or open wounds auto attack do the damage for you. </p><p> Insolent gibe is a great AE taunt that makes it easy to keep enemies off your allies. And I dont care what anyone says, there is never enough dps. If your mages get assassinated before you can taunt.. a guardian wont be doing much now can he? PvP is about verstilty.. a berserker can defend himself solo when their DPS buddy is down, and sometimes come out in a win (even 2 v 1 if you are geared enough and are willing to spend some money on expendable items, ie potions & charges).</p><p> But, I havent seen a good guardian since I started Nagafen, the day the server came out. Im sure there are good ones out on my server, but I never actually grouped with 1. Plate tanks are rare, guardians rarer. IMO, thats not a coincidence. Like I said verstility is king. High DPS, good armor, utility.. is the premier skills for PvP.. thats why rogues are so efficeint! Just a few cents on the Berserker standpoint. Not to sure about guardian. Im sure their Tower and Sphere lines would be good additions. In fact, I even thought and still want, to make a Guardian, and level him up to T7 to compare. </p><p>Rottk</p><p>Nagafen</p>

Zexxii
03-07-2007, 02:14 AM
From a healer's point of view, Guards are easier to keep up.

Norrsken
03-07-2007, 06:50 AM
<cite>Myxzptlk wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><cite>chrystolred wrote:</cite><blockquote>Berzerkers out damage any other plate tank by alot. They have alot of utilities including a revive right after they die, a few of them ive heard. Heals as well. As a ranger I have hard times with berzerkers because of there offensive combined with there plate armor. I've died a few times because I couldn't keep up with the damage they were doing to me while they mitigated all my attacks. That plus getting hit for 500+ damage by arrows as I tried to use my CA was pretty bad too. If you want offense as a tank then berzerker is the way to go. </blockquote> The only toon I ever really had any problems with zerkers on is my assassin, and they have to be really good to be any problem at all. Their damage output is not that good, and they havent got any way to keep you next to them, and since they dont have much else to come up with, they ar emost of the time quite easily kited. Or you can run in, use your big attacks, snare them, run off, and stay out of LoS until your big attacks come back up, then finish them off. My sk has pretty much the same damage output as a zerker, and can self heal. Zerkers are nothing but free kills to him. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> However, both warriors have more taunts. A sk has 2, which is really [I cannot control my vocabulary] up, since they simply removed one of the sks taunts from pvp. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote>That's odd, when i fight an sk i ask myself one thing. "Wonder if he has Mal touch up and i'll actually have a decent fight?" What tier are you talking? T7?</blockquote>Nopes, still making my way towards t7. So far though, I have killed every single warrior I have ever had a 1 on 1 with (Except the redcons when I first made it to t6). Orange warriors? No biggie. And well, the orange warriors I am fighting are in t7. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> And I dont need HT for that either. Swashies give me more headache than the warriors.

sprogn
03-07-2007, 08:17 AM
<p>I play a 64 Berserker on Nagafen.  Here's my input on the topic <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p> 1v1 fights:</p><p>Healers:  Healers are quite simply a pain in the [Removed for Content].  Fury's usually flee before the fight is over with pact.  My dps is high enough that I can keep them healing and not nuking up to yellow con.  The 70's are tough buggers if well geared but I can still land decent hits on them.  Key tactic:  Watch for their health to start dipping below 50%, hit the stifle, drop rampage, shield bash and let rampage finish them off.  Every time they cast, taunt or interrupt.</p><p>Scouts:  Scouts are easy, they all want to get off their high damage attacks so hit the +def buff and defensive stance for the first few seconds and just have at toe to toe battle.  This is where it pays to keep our nerve!  At this stage of the fight, we both tend to hit 50% health around the same time.  At this point the defensive buff is wearing thin, don't worry, it's not needed now.  Flip to offensive stance and start mashing the high damage buttons but SAVE rampage and open wounds.  This is where the ace card is played.  Never underestimate the power of the AGI AA line =)  Drop rampage, open wounds (for it's haste component), hit Dragoon's reflexes (12 second 100% parry) and finish them off with autoattack.</p><p>Tanks:  No other tank is a real threat except perhaps a shadowknight.  Watch for the casts and use stuns/interrupts appropriately.  Our autoattack damage is much higher than theirs with rampage, weapon guard etc.  Harm touch rarely lands on me now and when it does it's no worse than a small wizard nuke.  Gut roar is great for HT by the way.  A great tactic here is to do nothing until the SK has harmtouched (which they usually do to me wayyy to early) then use our AA outside combat heal to fix the damage before going to town.  Last SK I met nuked me for 2.2K, I healed 1.5K and beat the crap out of him.</p><p>Casters:  Enchanters are a pain, still struggle with them.  Anything else it's a case of keeping them stunned stifled.  Necro scout/caster pets drop fast, their tank pet can be ignored.  Swarm pets are dispatched by hitting any of our AOE's.  Focus on the necro and forget the rest.</p><p>Group fights:  This is where a berserker REALLY shines.  You see, the entire principle of a berserker is the more things there are to hit, the more damage you will do.  Nothing is more satisfying than being surrounded by a group of green/blues and dropping rampage, bloodbath, barrage, stunning cry and open wounds.</p><p>As for guardians being easier to keep alive?  Perhaps, better taunts?  Not really in PVP.  Gibe tends to be all we need and our encounter taunt is castable when stifled.  Our regular taunt has a fast cast time, interrupts and locks them down for a few seconds.  I've PVP'ed with guardians and they are a great class, but I wouldn't trade the utility of the Berserker for anything.</p><p>Did I mention we can die twice too?  It's too funny letting a caster/scout think he has the upper hand before our death avoidances kick in and start healing for insane amounts per second...</p>

Odama
03-07-2007, 10:23 AM
<p>What's group PvP?</p><p>Anyway I don't want to sound like a broken record but "It's not the class, it's the player" there are tons of bad Berserkers out there.  An embarassment to the family, yes I know and I cringe whenever I see one of them either posting or mis-representing as a tank or off-tank.</p><p>If all you're planning on doing is group PvP then Guardian is for you. I personally hate the thought of my PvP output being limited to spamming taunt and suiciding to a full group or raid through Insolent Gibe so I stay away from the group PvP as much as possible, that's why I chose Berserker.  I love having a choice.</p><p>The oddest thing is this thread leads to someone wanting to play a warrior on a EQ2 PvP server /gasp.</p>

Legiax
03-07-2007, 10:55 AM
<p>OK Here we go.</p><p>I've played as a PvP zerker for a while now, and im one of the better known zerkers on Venekor, purely due to PvP'ing a ton (dont PvE a lot eww).</p><p>Anyway, as a MT role Zerkers will do better in PvP than a guard 90% of the time, if you know what you are doing. I recently specced from PvP AoE DPS to a PvP Tank / Single target DPS and its fun.</p><p>Generally, i have 4 macro's using the new /useabilityon  command, i have a macro for the main DPS and main healer for each grp I fight, and they take all of 5 seconds to change per fight.</p><p>As for as tanking goes, your reactive taunt (20%) is MUCH more useful than one you have to trigger by attacking. If your fighting a good group, you'll be stunned a lot, whilst your stunned its nice to see your still holding agro whilst being hit. </p><p>As for Insolent Gibe, it rocks, no doubt again it, however it carries a massive risk of holding agro a little too well, and causing you to take insane amounts of damage and drop quickly. Its not always the best idea in PvP to hold 100% of agro, often enough letting 1 small dps (e.g. brawler) go off you will give your group a much higher chance of winning. Also, having a scout taunt off you works nicely.</p><p>Just think it through from every angle and then decide. However, for the Huge (yes huge) DPS zerkers put out AoE (you'll beat warlocks), the ability to hold 100% of agro if needed, and some nice short term buffs to get your mit etc up, i think Zerker is the way to go.</p><p>However i am partial to my class, and im simply going off what I know I can do. I also know Guardians which can do basically the same minus the nice DPS.</p>