Unrest, creating a mockery of itemization even moreso

[Mermidon]

<p>aITEM -445443125 -135600486:Rococo Breastplate/a</p><p>That comes out of Unrest.  You know, the new heroic zone.</p><p>No heroic zone should drop something that good for this tier.  For a ranger who relies upon range damage that is argueably the best breastplate in game and the only case you could make against it is the fabled set bp off mayong in inner sanctum.  </p><p>I thought you were trying to fix itemization, not make it even worse?  Why should any guild EVER raid clockwork menace is just as good and better stuff for classes is going to come from heroic zones?  This is ridiculous.  Please fix this asap because otherwise, you might as well just remove about 70% of the raid drops in game because they are worse than this stuff.  It wasnt enough we transmute half the crap we get because its so bad, but now we can get better stuff from a heroic instance?  Your basically saying dont raid, break your raid up into 4-6 groups and you will get way more loot that is just as good or better!  This needs to be corrected.</p><p>PS - I dont want to hear anything about how I am trying to ruin your fun or whatever from non raiders.  The fact is if you think by doing a heroic zone you should get as good of loot or better than people who clear all the raid instances you are being purely selfish and care nothing for the well being of this game and how progression should work.</p>

[valkyrja]

And the best mage robe comes out of Nest of the great Egg.  Maybe they just want all the cool chestpieces to be easily obtainable.  /boggle.

[Gungo]

<cite>Mermidon wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>aITEM -445443125 -135600486:Rococo Breastplate/a</p><p>That comes out of Unrest.  You know, the new heroic zone.</p><p>No heroic zone should drop something that good for this tier.  For a ranger who relies upon range damage that is argueably the best breastplate in game and the only case you could make against it is the fabled set bp off mayong in inner sanctum.  </p><p>I thought you were trying to fix itemization, not make it even worse?  Why should any guild EVER raid clockwork menace is just as good and better stuff for classes is going to come from heroic zones?  This is ridiculous.  Please fix this asap because otherwise, you might as well just remove about 70% of the raid drops in game because they are worse than this stuff.  It wasnt enough we transmute half the crap we get because its so bad, but now we can get better stuff from a heroic instance?  Your basically saying dont raid, break your raid up into 4-6 groups and you will get way more loot that is just as good or better!  This needs to be corrected.</p><p>PS - I dont want to hear anything about how I am trying to ruin your fun or whatever from non raiders.  The fact is if you think by doing a heroic zone you should get as good of loot or better than people who clear all the raid instances you are being purely selfish and care nothing for the well being of this game and how progression should work.</p></blockquote><p>First off decent rewards have to drop in high level heroic instances. Like nizara and mm castle and now Unrest. It adds to the replay value for alot of people. That said How many ranger usable BP's are dropping in your raids? I havent seen many. The fact remains yes that bp has a nice proc and is pretty decent stat etc wise. I see nothing wrong with it. What i do see a problem is the lack of thought in fabled raid dropped loot. The stat points and allocation in the current raid fabled loot is off, but what really is the main issue with raid loot is the [Removed for Content] procs. Most don't even make sense. The focus effects are minimal at best. Lots of raid items dont event have procs effects etc. </p><p>IMHO they messed up w the fabled class sets. The focus effects should have been a BONUS in addtion to normal procs not instead. Each peice should have an added focus and/or proc Something like the PVP sets. THEN the focus effects for completed sets should be added to encourage a complete set. each expansion itemization is gettign a tad better, but they usually make mistakes along the way that make most people who play this game go [Removed for Content]. So in conclusion i don't care if a good BP like that drops in a heroic instance as long as they upgrade all the RAID loot in eof to be progressively better. Archonix seems to be looking into this issue and hopefully we can see some form of progression exsist in the near future.  </p>

[Kizee]

<p>Thats one of the biggest downfalls of this game... progression sucks.</p><p>In no way should stull that drops off heroic mobs be better than raided stuff of the same tier.</p>

[Archonix]

<cite>Mermidon wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>aITEM -445443125 -135600486:Rococo Breastplate/a</p><p>That comes out of Unrest.  You know, the new heroic zone.</p></blockquote> The Rococo Breastplate doesn't drop in Unrest.

[Fayline Fyrecat]

Darn it, I wanted to throw a tantrum too! <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Stormwolf86]

<cite>Archonix wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mermidon wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>aITEM -445443125 -135600486:Rococo Breastplate/a</p><p>That comes out of Unrest.  You know, the new heroic zone.</p></blockquote> The Rococo Breastplate doesn't drop in Unrest. </blockquote> Where does it come from then might I ask?

[goboy]

<cite>Archonix wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mermidon wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>aITEM -445443125 -135600486:Rococo Breastplate/a</p><p>That comes out of Unrest.  You know, the new heroic zone.</p></blockquote> The Rococo Breastplate doesn't drop in Unrest. </blockquote> Was going to say, I never have seen it drop.  Then again, we probably have only seen about 75% of the drops on test.

[CrazedMut]

Emerald Halls

[Roriondesexiest]

<p>HA HA!</p><p>Though the treasured drops seem to be rather nice there.</p>

[PIexor]

The new Bixie named on the 2nd floor of Emerald Halls drops, hardly easy to get <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Jindrack]

<cite>Archonix wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mermidon wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>aITEM -445443125 -135600486:Rococo Breastplate/a</p><p>That comes out of Unrest.  You know, the new heroic zone.</p></blockquote> The Rococo Breastplate doesn't drop in Unrest. </blockquote> I'll second that.  The only BPs that drop in Unrest are the class BPs.  Nice leap though, I think you cleared that conclusion by a mile. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[ZeyGnome]

<cite>Jindrack wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Archonix wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mermidon wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>aITEM -445443125 -135600486:Rococo Breastplate/a</p><p>That comes out of Unrest.  You know, the new heroic zone.</p></blockquote> The Rococo Breastplate doesn't drop in Unrest. </blockquote> I'll second that.  The only BPs that drop in Unrest are the class BPs.  Nice leap though, I think you cleared that conclusion by a mile. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote><p>Sorry, I never do this, but in this case I just have to . . .</p><p>/pwned! </p>

[Kizee]

<p>Some of the items that I saw linked tonight are pretty [Removed for Content] nice and SHOULDN'T be dropping in a heroic intance.</p>

[selch]

<cite>Kizee wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Some of the items that I saw linked tonight are pretty [I cannot control my vocabulary] nice and SHOULDN'T be dropping in a heroic intance.</p></blockquote><p>Let me correct you a bit... No Heroic Dungeon should require RAID gear, nor should appeal only Raid players. But sadly that is done. If that is done, loot should somewhat appealing to raid players (which is done in Unrest. It is a heroic dungeon DESIGNED for RAID players --got it?, 'Raid players, rejoice' is the Press Introduction mail title of Unrest and it is heroic because they don't want you to wait 5 days to get in it, but it requires you to have raid gear), If loot was worse than most easy raid, why would raid players go there? If they don't go there, who will go there? With lower tier equipment, it is waste of time, and Unrest is waste of content for people who did not participate in raids before.</p><p>In better words: "Unrest is a tough raid zone, designed for '6 man raid' that has progressed through other raid zones" simple as that.</p>

[Ji]

<p>I love it. Weve been begging for better gear all this time and here we go. And your complaining about it? </p><p>1. I love to raid but it's only 20% for the drops.</p><p>2. Level 70s have needed this boost for a long time. This is the gear needed to better handle EoF raid content.</p><p>Bravo devs! Dont change nothing. Please!</p>

[Sebastien]

<cite>Kizee wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Some of the items that I saw linked tonight are pretty [I cannot control my vocabulary] nice and SHOULDN'T be dropping in a heroic intance.</p></blockquote><p> omg omg the horror!!</p><p>People who don't want to consign their lives to a raiding grind can still get cool stuff.</p><p><b>WHATEVER WILL U DO KIZEE?</b></p>

[Koehianna]

Okay, so the OP's chest piece doesn't drop in Unrest, but how about some other stuff. There's a 1H wand for mages that procs 1.8 times per minute, with a buff that increases all spell damage by 8% for 12 seconds.  That could possibly be the very best 1H available to a mage at the moment. And the fabled Cloak of Unrest.  Again, possibly the best mage cloak in the game, dropping in a heroic instance.

[Niende]

I agree that a number of the items the guild was pulling out of Unrest tonight seemed rather overpowered. PLEASE swap the item designer of the heroic loot and raid loot so some interesting procs start showing up on epic gear. At least I know a couple of slots I dont have to hoard dkp for anymore, I just need to hit Unrest some with some lucky dice, or the broker.

[Mr. Dawki]

<cite>Jixx wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I love it. Weve been begging for better gear all this time and here we go. And your complaining about it? </p><p>1. I love to raid but it's only 20% for the drops.</p><p>2. Level 70s have needed this boost for a long time. This is the gear needed to better handle EoF raid content.</p><p>Bravo devs! Dont change nothing. Please!</p></blockquote>/second

[Wayoff]

Loved the items and the zone, hopefully see more things like this in the future

[Caetrel]

It's a beautiful zone, if you finish it you will see some incrediblly unique graphics and scripts unlike anything else in EQ2.  There are actually several fabled cloaks, +18 non-lore charm items, and alot of nice legendary drops to appeal to raiders.  It will be a zone that raiders will want to do when they aren't raiding. It is a zone that non-raiders can easily do (difficulty of Nek 70 IMO- left with 100% gear). There are items in the zone that raiders will want and in some cases may be the best you can get for some time in a certain slot.  That's not a bad thing.  BFD if some loot from here is endgame.  Alot of raiders use Zan-fi idols, proc collection/quest gear, etc....It really has no bearing at all on progression because you aren't gonna kill Woushi because of loot you got from here.  Nor are you gonna have the best gear by solely farming this or any other heroic zones.  Let's face it, any raiders with long play hours spend their non-raid time doing heroic or solo stuff to farm upgrades...whether it's soloing PP for a tier 6 master someone needs or doing Nizara for a proc bracelet.  This is just more of that.  The sky isn't falling. A master 1 Dispatch is more valuable than anything that drops off CWM.  Should I cry because I have to do a DoF zone to get it? There are always bigger progression issues within the raid zones themselves, better that dev time addresses that.

[SinIsLaw]

Agree the zone is a blast, for a very very long time I had fun in an instance again ... it kinda felt like Nek castle back in Nov/Dec 04 ... not just dull like Crypt or Obelisk! Really Thumbs up was a blast and on top of it amazing design! The Loot, so what if it is great or better then raid loot - I've said it before Gear doesn't make a players it only helps - defenitly there are some sweet items in that zone, and yes they look better in stats etc then some of the raid drops I've seen in EH etc ... but so what! There will always be raid loot far superior to some items in certain slots, tbh it doesn't bother me that one of the best tank belts in game has been for a very long time been a quest item! Eventually you come along a better item ... 

[goboy]

Lasie@Blackburrow wrote: <blockquote>Okay, so the OP's chest piece doesn't drop in Unrest, but how about some other stuff. There's a 1H wand for mages that procs 1.8 times per minute, with a buff that increases all spell damage by 8% for 12 seconds.  That could possibly be the very best 1H available to a mage at the moment. And the fabled Cloak of Unrest.  Again, possibly the best mage cloak in the game, dropping in a heroic instance. </blockquote><p> I'll chime in on the wand since it was my feedback that got it changed.  The Wand of Plasma is barely better then Grizzfazzle's wand - originally it was worse.  The first proc was an increase in DPS by 6% for the next spell.  Well, for wizards (if we got real lucky), our next spell would have been Ice Comet at 600-800 point increase.  The reality, the next spell was most often a 1k tic of surging tempest or (at best) a 3k Ball of Lava.  On average I was seeing a 60-200 point increase in damage 1.8x a minute.  </p><p>Now compare that with Grizzfazzle - 300-600 pt proc 2x a minute.  For wizards, Grizzfazzle still came out ahead.  For the other mage classes, Grizzfazzle was superior in every way we could think of.  That was why we recommended changing the Proc to a straight dps increase for 15 seconds (they went for 12 seconds).  I have found I can get 2-3 spells off in that time - but they are not always damage either.  8% increase seems huge, until you understand that <b>a.</b> you don't control when it procs and <b>b.</b> your next spell is most likely in the 1-3k range (wizard).</p><p>Now we have a wand that competes with grizzfazzle.  It does not blow it out of the water and is not worse.  Grizzfazzle is also much easier to get.  The real problem is probably grizzfazzle, but our feedback was that nerfing grizzfazzle was not the answer.  </p><p>On the cloak, I LOVE my unrest cloak.  Saying that, I still am not convinced that it is better then the Diety Cloak.  +12int/wiz and 10% resuse speed increase (2x a  minute) is nice - but the straight 65 pt increase in damage of Sol Ro cloak will probably parse out higher.  This is the first gear that I have chosen look over functionality.</p><p>For those complaining that you need raid gear to do the instance.  Our test group was a mix of low leve raiders and non-raiders.  The best gear we have is from LABS.  We have run the instance 6-7x and never had a problem until the last time.  They changed Garanel and we could not stun him (that was suppossed to be reverted).  I think when people get to know the zone, they will realize that it does not take raid gear - but it will take very good gear and teamwork.</p>

[TwistedFaith]

What SoE should have done is make unrest like all  the other EOF instances, crap  loot that nobody wants and pretty soon the zone wi ll be deserted just like all the other EOF instanc es.  Would the people whining about itemization be happy then?

[Ellrin]

To the OP ...........dry your eyes mate, you just got pwned.

[Sebastien]

<cite>TwistedFaith wrote:</cite><blockquote>Would the people whining about itemization be happy then? </blockquote>I'm all for a logical progression of items that people feel excited about.  What I can't stand is the mentality of certain raiders, who don't so much care about how "good" or useful their gear is, but only really care for making sure that others cannot have good gear.  Notice that the complaints in this thread are not related to making a progression of the raids, nor having raids drop gear that is good for raiding; its simply a protest at the mere notion that ANYONE would be allowed to have access to gear that is good, other than raiders.

[Computer MAn]

Sebastien@Permafrost wrote: <blockquote><cite>TwistedFaith wrote:</cite><blockquote>Would the people whining about itemization be happy then? </blockquote>I'm all for a logical progression of items that people feel excited about.  What I can't stand is the mentality of certain raiders, who don't so much care about how "good" or useful their gear is, but only really care for making sure that others cannot have good gear.  Notice that the complaints in this thread are not related to making a progression of the raids, nor having raids drop gear that is good for raiding; its simply a protest at the mere notion that ANYONE would be allowed to have access to gear that is good, other than raiders.</blockquote>No its the fact that once again SOE has proved they don't have a clue. Raiders generally don't care if casuals can have some nice gear but to have it drop the best stuff in the game and come out of an instance where the nameds are weak is just a slap in the face to everyone who goes into EH etc. Heroic mobs should not be dropping the best gear in the game. And at least for me it annoys the hell out of me that heroic instances like Unrest get both A) Exciting loot with intresting procs and B) a fun zone with an intresting script. If you would implement a raid zone like unrest with fun items and scripts I am sure it would make a lot of raiders happy.

[Jida]

<cite>Jindrack wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Archonix wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mermidon wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>aITEM -445443125 -135600486:Rococo Breastplate/a</p><p>That comes out of Unrest.  You know, the new heroic zone.</p></blockquote> The Rococo Breastplate doesn't drop in Unrest. </blockquote> I'll second that.  The only BPs that drop in Unrest are the class BPs.  Nice leap though, I think you cleared that conclusion by a mile. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote> /sigh.... I'm the noob that started that bad bad bad rumor... i guess I have to be more careful on what i "assume" is update on <a href="http://www.eq2llinks.com/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">www.eq2llinks.com</a>. And put in a [Removed for Content] system to see what drops in a particular zone... btw.... /browser www.eq2llinks.com is your friend.... =).. soon to be updated to look awsome in game (its just a little too "big" to fit in the game window ATM, I should be able to shrink it in a few days.)

[Ballads]

Bad info on the BP you shoulda used  aITEM -1729347897 -1367021392:Jindrack's Lucan D'Lere Action Figure/a   as your example. Which does come from unrest tho from a lvl 80x2 mob. I don't think he was meant to be beat but that didn't stop us from doing it. Grats eskie on her new dolly. P.S. could you make me like a lockeye Voodoo doll ? I promise to stab it with pins alot.

[Darry]

Computer MAn wrote: <blockquote>Sebastien@Permafrost wrote: <blockquote><cite>TwistedFaith wrote:</cite><blockquote>Would the people whining about itemization be happy then? </blockquote>I'm all for a logical progression of items that people feel excited about.  What I can't stand is the mentality of certain raiders, who don't so much care about how "good" or useful their gear is, but only really care for making sure that others cannot have good gear.  Notice that the complaints in this thread are not related to making a progression of the raids, nor having raids drop gear that is good for raiding; its simply a protest at the mere notion that ANYONE would be allowed to have access to gear that is good, other than raiders.</blockquote>No its the fact that once again SOE has proved they don't have a clue. Raiders generally don't care if casuals can have some nice gear but to have it drop the best stuff in the game and come out of an instance where the nameds are weak is just a slap in the face to everyone who goes into EH etc. Heroic mobs should not be dropping the best gear in the game. And at least for me it annoys the hell out of me that heroic instances like Unrest get both A) Exciting loot with intresting procs and B) a fun zone with an intresting script. If you would implement a raid zone like unrest with fun items and scripts I am sure it would make a lot of raiders happy. </blockquote><p>Nail, head, nuff' said. </p>

[scl]

Computer MAn wrote: <blockquote>Sebastien@Permafrost wrote: If you would implement a raid zone like unrest with fun items and scripts I am sure it would make a lot of raiders happy. </blockquote> I'm quite sure nothing would make <i>some</i> raiders happy. Just be greatful for a new, fun zone with interesting items I say. Unrest is a step in the right direction for items. Who knows, maybe they'll add new raid items or update existing ones to be more like the new items.

[auk]

Yeah, just IMO so take it with a grain of salt, but nothing I've seen coming out of unrest blows raid loot progression out of the water. The problem is with raid loot and needs to be fixed with changes or additions to raid loot, not by depriving heroic content of nice stuff.

[Sebastien]

Computer MAn wrote: <blockquote>Sebastien@Permafrost wrote: <blockquote><cite>TwistedFaith wrote:</cite><blockquote>Would the people whining about itemization be happy then? </blockquote>I'm all for a logical progression of items that people feel excited about.  What I can't stand is the mentality of certain raiders, who don't so much care about how "good" or useful their gear is, but only really care for making sure that others cannot have good gear.  Notice that the complaints in this thread are not related to making a progression of the raids, nor having raids drop gear that is good for raiding; its simply a protest at the mere notion that ANYONE would be allowed to have access to gear that is good, other than raiders.</blockquote>No its the fact that once again SOE has proved they don't have a clue. Raiders generally don't care if casuals can have some nice gear but to have it drop the best stuff in the game and come out of an instance where the nameds are weak is just a slap in the face to everyone who goes into EH etc. Heroic mobs should not be dropping the best gear in the game. And at least for me it annoys the hell out of me that heroic instances like Unrest get both A) Exciting loot with intresting procs and B) a fun zone with an intresting script. If you would implement a raid zone like unrest with fun items and scripts I am sure it would make a lot of raiders happy. </blockquote><p>I stand by my point.  When your primary motivation is based on making sure others can't have things better than you, then you are a segment of the player base that is not likely to ever be happy.</p><p>I don't mean this toward you personally.  But I've never seen an mmorpg that tried to appease raiders, and succeeded.  Moreover, they have almost always upset the vast majority of their player base in that failed effort.  Hardcore raiders are so single-mindedly motivated by meaningless statistics on fictional gear that, in order to design a game that truly makes them happy, by necessity you've created something totally unappealing to the majority of online gamers.</p><p>That you guys can actually have your real-life emotions negatively impacted by the fact that some casual people are having fun in a non-raid instance <i>in a game</i> is mind boggling, if you step back and think about it.</p><p>If you think your raids are buggy or not creatively designed or not fun to do, then I think that is totally legitimate feedback.  If your only feedback is that you are upset that other people are getting loot as good as you have, then I think that's a lame position. </p>

[Kizee]

Sebastien@Permafrost wrote: <blockquote>Computer MAn wrote: <blockquote>Sebastien@Permafrost wrote: <blockquote><cite>TwistedFaith wrote:</cite><blockquote>Would the people whining about itemization be happy then? </blockquote>I'm all for a logical progression of items that people feel excited about.  What I can't stand is the mentality of certain raiders, who don't so much care about how "good" or useful their gear is, but only really care for making sure that others cannot have good gear.  Notice that the complaints in this thread are not related to making a progression of the raids, nor having raids drop gear that is good for raiding; its simply a protest at the mere notion that ANYONE would be allowed to have access to gear that is good, other than raiders.</blockquote>No its the fact that once again SOE has proved they don't have a clue. Raiders generally don't care if casuals can have some nice gear but to have it drop the best stuff in the game and come out of an instance where the nameds are weak is just a slap in the face to everyone who goes into EH etc. Heroic mobs should not be dropping the best gear in the game. And at least for me it annoys the hell out of me that heroic instances like Unrest get both A) Exciting loot with intresting procs and B) a fun zone with an intresting script. If you would implement a raid zone like unrest with fun items and scripts I am sure it would make a lot of raiders happy. </blockquote><p>I stand by my point.  When your primary motivation is based on making sure others can't have things better than you, then you are a segment of the player base that is not likely to ever be happy.</p><p>I don't mean this toward you personally.  But I've never seen an mmorpg that tried to appease raiders, and succeeded.  Moreover, they have almost always upset the vast majority of their player base in that failed effort.  Hardcore raiders are so single-mindedly motivated by meaningless statistics on fictional gear that, in order to design a game that truly makes them happy, by necessity you've created something totally unappealing to the majority of online gamers.</p><p>That you guys can actually have your real-life emotions negatively impacted by the fact that some casual people are having fun in a non-raid instance <i>in a game</i> is mind boggling, if you step back and think about it.</p><p>If you think your raids are buggy or not creatively designed or not fun to do, then I think that is totally legitimate feedback.  If your only feedback is that you are upset that other people are getting loot as good as you have, then I think that's a lame position. </p></blockquote><p>I think the casuals need to take a step back and look at the whole picture.</p><p>As others said in this thread....the majoritity of raiders don't have any problem with casual gamers getting geared up in nice stuff. The problem is when loot is dropping in single group instances that is equal to or better than the raids that you need 24 people and alot of hard work to complete. </p><p>Raid items should ALWAYS be better than group instance stuff.... no exceptions.</p><p>Another beef I have is alot of legendary items are better than fabled and some treasued items are better than legendary. Progression is all messed up.</p>

[EtoilePirate]

<cite>selch wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>No Heroic Dungeon should require RAID gear, nor should appeal only Raid players. But sadly that is done. If that is done, loot should somewhat appealing to raid players (which is done in Unrest. It is a heroic dungeon DESIGNED for RAID players --got it?, 'Raid players, rejoice' is the Press Introduction mail title of Unrest and it is heroic because they don't want you to wait 5 days to get in it, but it requires you to have raid gear), </p></blockquote> Um.  If it's for raiders only, then why did they ask us to make sure we gave feedback wearing terasured and legendary, instead of just our raid stuff?  <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Surprise: with a solid, talented, and well-balanced group, a treasured tank can do Unrest.  Or at least the ones on Test can. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[goboy]

<p>Kizee wrote: </p><blockquote><p>I think the casuals need to take a step back and look at the whole picture.</p><p>As others said in this thread....the majoritity of raiders don't have any problem with casual gamers getting geared up in nice stuff. The problem is when loot is dropping in single group instances that is equal to or better than the raids that you need 24 people and alot of hard work to complete. </p><p>Raid items should ALWAYS be better than group instance stuff.... no exceptions.</p><p>Another beef I have is alot of legendary items are better than fabled and some treasued items are better than legendary. Progression is all messed up.</p></blockquote><p> That is your opinion.  I have no problem with High Degree of Difficulty instances reaching Raid Quality - and no, unrest is not quite that hard.  Besides, are you actually saying that gear in a place like unrest cannot exceed Labs or Cube mobs (etc...).  How about T6, can it exceed T6 raid gear - where do you draw the line?  I absolutely hated EQ1's disparity in raid vs casual gear - raid gear can be better without being that much better. </p><p>Also, some of the items linked as the Best in The Game for xx class linked from Unrest are not the best in the game.  Take the wand of crystallized plasma (described above): I asked some wizard raiders and most would still use their raid dropped gear over it.  I guess it will be telling if Raiders start gearing up through unrest - somehow I doubt it. </p>

[NorrinRadd]

<p>As a MMORPG that is in a state of  constant fluid development on the part of SOE,I'd think the Raiders would be the most pleased by the Items that are dropping in Unrest and their Stats. My perspective is one of ,"Imagine what the Raid gear will look like from here on out if this is what the Devs are creating for an instance that a PUG can achieve." Try to see the "Proverbial BIG Picture" sometimes & be a tad more optimistic and open to everyone sharing the wealth. These types of Items mean the beginning of wonderful possibilities for all,Great job on Unrest Dev's,keep up the Good Work!<img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Sebastien]

<cite>Kizee wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I think the casuals need to take a step back and look at the whole picture.</p><p>As others said in this thread....the majoritity of raiders don't have any problem with casual gamers getting geared up in nice stuff. The problem is when loot is dropping in single group instances that is equal to or better than the raids that you need 24 people and alot of hard work to complete. </p><p>Raid items should ALWAYS be better than group instance stuff.... no exceptions.</p><p>Another beef I have is alot of legendary items are better than fabled and some treasued items are better than legendary. Progression is all messed up.</p></blockquote><p><u>What you meant to say was</u>: the majority of raiders don't have any problem with casual gamers getting geared up in nice stuff<b>, as long as it is strictly inferior to what raiders get</b>.  You left that important tidbit out in an effort to make your position seem more appealing.</p><p>Now if you were to make the argument to me that more challenging content should have better rewards, I would agree with you.  But that isn't what you're saying.  What you're saying is that simply because an instance requires a larger group, it should ALWAYS (your emphasis) yield better rewards.  Since when is the size of a group indicative of how challenging something is?  Is it not possible to design content for six people that is harder (for six people) than certain content designed for 24 people?</p><p>Of course the answer is that there is no direct relationship between the challenge of the content and the number of people involved.  You could play a game in which the standard group size is 8, instead of 6.  Would that mean, by your narrow logic, that everything in that game is automatically harder?</p><p>Now, as a seperate topic, there is the issue of incentive.  It's possible and from a certain point of view quite logical to say that soloing is more difficult than grouping, and therefore soloing will yield the best loot.  The trouble is, if you designed a game that way, the community would suffer because the incentive is to avoid other people.  So then the question with raiding is whether you wish to create incentives for "large" groups of players to come together.  If you do, is a raiding progression the best way to do that?  Etc.</p><p>These questions are beyond the scope of the thread.  My point is that raid content is not necessarily more difficult.  I know from first-hand experience that a raiding guild's primary objective is to get baseline raids on "farm status".. meaning what? meaning that it is so easy for them to complete the content that the effort becomes <u>trivial</u>.  If the effort is trivial, guess what I think the reward should be? =)</p><p>Now just to be clear, I am all for raiders having fun raids to do.  I am all for a progression of raids.  And I am all for you folks finding wonderful fictional items that you'll treasure for days.  But there is no good reason why properly designed heroic content cannot yield loot on par with raids.  The fundamental question should be about challenge and effort, not simply number of people.</p>

[Noaani]

Computer MAn wrote: <blockquote>No its the fact that once again SOE has proved they don't have a clue. Raiders generally don't care if casuals can have some nice gear but to have it drop the best stuff in the game and come out of an instance where the nameds are weak is just a slap in the face to everyone who goes into EH etc. Heroic mobs should not be dropping the best gear in the game. And at least for me it annoys the hell out of me that heroic instances like Unrest get both A) Exciting loot with intresting procs and B) a fun zone with an intresting script. If you would implement a raid zone like unrest with fun items and scripts I am sure it would make a lot of raiders happy. </blockquote><p>Do me a favor.</p><p>Using small words, and short sentances, mathmatical formulas where appropriate, tell me what item drops in Unrest that is the best in the game.</p><p>I have looked over every drop I have seen, nothing for a wizard could be considered 'the best'</p><p>The Cloak is nice, and at times would be my choice of cloak, however, both Sol Ros cloak and the one from the sage in CMM have times when they are a better choice. The fact that the other two cloaks are heroic as well is a concern, but so far there is no single 'best cloak in the game for a wizard'... there are 3 cloaks that all have their place, which is good.</p><p>The healer belt with FT 10 is nice, but hardly the best healer belt in the game.</p><p>The power proc dagger is nice, but i can think of several better choices for mages.</p><p>The wand with the extra damage proc is nice, better than Grizzfazzles for some mages, worse than grizzfazzles for other mages.</p><p>The crit necklace is cool for a bard or crusader, but again, anyone that thinks its the best in the game needs to either go out and raid some, or learn how the game works a bit more.</p><p>The 2 handed staff... well, every mage in the game that uses 2 handed weapons has better.</p><p>And that doll that supposedly drops from the epic, well, its an epic, its in a heroic instance, and its 10 levels above the cap (assuming you dont de-level him or anything) it should drop T8 loot... but it is STILL not the best for anyone in those slots.</p><p>Am i missing something here?</p><p>Did SoE put master 3s dropping in Unrest and I missed it? cause really, there is some nice stuff in here, stuff that has uses on raids, but nothing I would consider to be THE BEST... which is just how it should be.</p><p>Gown of Glory retains its spot as the pinup centerfold for poor itemization.</p>

[Zelkova]

Clearing Nizara is harder than clearing labs. Just because it's a heroic instance does not mean the loot should suck. The same goes for Unrest, though I haven't been in it yet to know exactly what drops. It's ok if some loot that comes out of group dungeons is high quality. It really depends on the challenge of the instance or time investment required. 6 hours of a raiders time is no more valuable than 6 hours of full group in an instance.

[arieste]

<cite>Zelkova wrote:</cite><blockquote>6 hours of a raiders time is no more valuable than 6 hours of full group in an instance. </blockquote><p>6hoursx24players= 144 manhours</p><p>6hoursx6player = 36 manhours</p><p>So if each person's time is equally valuable, then the raid invests four times the time.   </p><p>Or in other terms, in order to do one raid, you could have had the same people do the instance 4 times.  So in simplistic terms, the payoff from the raid should be 4 times better than one instance, else it would be more beneficial to simply do the instance 4 times.  </p><p>This is in purely "payoff" terms, let's leave "fun and challenge" out of it, since EVERYTHING in the game should provide those.</p><p>Clearing nizara is not harder than clearing Labs.  This based on the experience of clearing both countless times.</p><p>That is to answer the previous poster.  As far as loot in Unrest, I am hoping it's the start of better itemization throughout the game and only hope that it will serve as a new baseline for future raids and instances.  Good equipment is always good and there should be nice loot for everyone, including those that don't raid.  However if the best loot in the game can be obtained solo, it will discourage grouping and if the best loot in game can be obtained with one group, it will discourage raiding, hence there needs to be a progression to encourage people to do all 3.</p><p>The problem with Nizara itemization was that it required people in better gear than it provided.  Unrest fixes that, unrest can be done by a bunch of people in treasured, so the legendary drops are nice upgrades.  </p><p>Now they just need to apply the same principle to the rest of the game - if a zone requires you to have raid full of KoS-fabled people, the drops should be clear upgrades to KoS fabled items. etc, etc.</p><p>Basically, don't nerf Unrest loot, improve all the other loot.  </p>

[Ama]

<cite>Jixx wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I love it. Weve been begging for better gear all this time and here we go. And your complaining about it? </p><p>1. I love to raid but it's only 20% for the drops.</p><p>2. Level 70s have needed this boost for a long time. This is the gear needed to better handle EoF raid content.</p><p>Bravo devs! Dont change nothing. Please!</p></blockquote><p> Ya it's that kind of attitude that got that Breastplate of Protection or whatever it is called nerfed.  That thing had no str, agi, or sta enhancing stats yet made up for it with great mitigation.  Now it got nerfed badly along with Grizzlefazzle's shield.  <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>No More Nerfings Come On Please. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Sebastien]

<cite>arieste wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zelkova wrote:</cite><blockquote>6 hours of a raiders time is no more valuable than 6 hours of full group in an instance. </blockquote><p>6hoursx24players= 144 manhours</p><p>6hoursx6player = 36 manhours</p><p>So if each person's time is equally valuable, then the raid invests four times the time.   </p><p>Or in other terms, in order to do one raid, you could have had the same people do the instance 4 times.  So in simplistic terms, the payoff from the raid should be 4 times better than one instance, else it would be more beneficial to simply do the instance 4 times.  </p><p>This is in purely "payoff" terms,</p></blockquote><p>This is not correct, and is another raiders' myth that is easy to debunk.</p><p>My friend joins a team in Stormhold, and spends about 1 hour in there.</p><p>Meanwhile, I plant myself on top of a griffon tower in Antonica, and I spend 5 hours reading a book while my character stands there.</p><p>According to your analysis, arieste, I should receive 5x as a great a reward as my friend, because I invested 5x the amount of time.</p><p>The "time" analysis is flawed, just like the "size of group" analysis is flawed.  These are just raiders' myths.  And people without any experience in raiding tend to just accept and believe them, but they aren't true, and they aren't valid.  The primary driver of reward in a well-designed game is risk.  Sometimes it's true that investing the time to create a larger group means putting more at stake, hence a greater risk/challenge, and therefore a greater reward.  But it's also true that sometimes those large groups are completely mindless and trivial.</p><p>So, I go back to my original premise.  There is no good reason why appropriate heroic content should not result in rewards that are as good as rewards obtained in raiding.  Time and size of group are not appropriate drivers for reward.  Risk/challenge is.</p>

[arieste]

Sebastien@Permafrost wrote: <blockquote><p>So, I go back to my original premise.  There is no good reason why appropriate heroic content should not result in rewards that are as good as rewards obtained in raiding.  Time and size of group are not appropriate drivers for reward.  Risk/challenge is.</p></blockquote><p>The time analysis is indeed simplistic and flawed, as I pointed out in my post (I guess I wasn't clear enough there.)</p><p>However on the risk/challenge argument you are not correct.  If you've ever had to manage or lead people you would know that with all other things being equal, it is harder to organize 24 people than 6.  So a zone with some sort of nominal difficulty of "10" will be harder when designed for 24 than for 6.  </p>

[Gungo]

<cite>arieste wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sebastien@Permafrost wrote: <blockquote><p>So, I go back to my original premise.  There is no good reason why appropriate heroic content should not result in rewards that are as good as rewards obtained in raiding.  Time and size of group are not appropriate drivers for reward.  Risk/challenge is.</p></blockquote><p>The time analysis is indeed simplistic and flawed, as I pointed out in my post (I guess I wasn't clear enough there.)</p><p>However on the risk/challenge argument you are not correct.  If you've ever had to manage or lead people you would know that with all other things being equal, it is harder to organize 24 people than 6.  So a zone with some sort of nominal difficulty of "10" will be harder when designed for 24 than for 6.  </p></blockquote><p> You do realise your b1tching about a nonexsistant issue. The OP was wrong. So far nothing in this zone is the best raid loot. Its actually decent heroic stuff. But thats it. Even the item he linked i though was fine for a heroic instance other then the fabled label. IF it had a ranged proc or crit % i would of said that is raid loot, but really it was nothing special. If i would of saw that chest in raids i would of been unimpressed. it is crap for raids but sadly that is the raid itemization in eq2 Seriously i can count on my hand the heroic drops that are the best items in games. And that is because they have unique effects where as most raid items lack thought and only include blanket stat /resist increases. </p><p>and for this qoute i am sorry you are worng cube mobs and (most of labs both are x24 raids and both require little to no thought. Nizara WAS by far harder then cube mobs and most of labs (minus vyemm).</p>

[Anaun]

<p>Assuming it actually takes 4x the effort (man hours, difficulty, etc) perhaps the best solution is to have named for each raid zone drop 4x as many items. To compensate for the relative amount of effort.</p><p> 'Cuz nothing says satisfaction like having four pieces of the same fabled BP drop... for a class that isn't even there, or got one last week... <img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Seriously tho, since actually there are four times (or two times, in some cases) as many players required, is it unreasonable to expect a proportional <i>number</i> of rewards?</p>

[Judist]

<cite>arieste wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sebastien@Permafrost wrote: <blockquote><p>So, I go back to my original premise.  There is no good reason why appropriate heroic content should not result in rewards that are as good as rewards obtained in raiding.  Time and size of group are not appropriate drivers for reward.  Risk/challenge is.</p></blockquote><p>The time analysis is indeed simplistic and flawed, as I pointed out in my post (I guess I wasn't clear enough there.)</p><p>However on the risk/challenge argument you are not correct.  If you've ever had to manage or lead people you would know that with all other things being equal, it is harder to organize 24 people than 6.  So a zone with some sort of nominal difficulty of "10" will be harder when designed for 24 than for 6.  </p></blockquote><p> Exactly. And this is <b>expecially</b> true with EoF raiding where you often need all 24 players on the same page in order to succeed. Not every raid consists of players just standing still to heal/dps while the tank does his thing. There are many encounters (KoS/EoF alike) where 1 person can screw the deal, screwing over 23 other players in the process.</p><p>Nizara is a ton easier to manage as long as 2 or 3 key players knows whats going on. The rest can usually hang back to do their thing without much worry (so long as they understand how not to break mezz). Same is true with Unrest. </p><p>So risk + challenge + time will always put raiding on top. And time better be a factor even if its a small factor. Like said 24 players could clear ALOT of instances in the time it takes to do 1 raid, so raiding rewards should always come out on top. Not in quantity but quality.</p><p>Even so when considering Unrest loot, I actually have NO problems with how good it looks. We've all been griping and moaning for better instance loot and we got just that. And even if it replaces some fabled T7 loot, an instance-only player will never accumulate as much top-end gear as a raider. So their 2-3 pieces of great legendary is not overbalancing considering us raiders have entire sets (armor/jewelry/weapons) of fantastic gear.</p><p>Definitly a step in the right direction.</p>

[Groma]

<cite>Ballads wrote:</cite><blockquote>Bad info on the BP you shoulda used  aITEM -1729347897 -1367021392:Jindrack's Lucan D'Lere Action Figure/a   as your example. Which does come from unrest tho from a lvl 80x2 mob. I don't think he was meant to be beat but that didn't stop us from doing it. Grats eskie on her new dolly. P.S. could you make me like a lockeye Voodoo doll ? I promise to stab it with pins alot. </blockquote>If he has a loot table, he was obviously meant to be beat.  I'm just curious what kinda group setup you had to take down an 80x2 mob with 6 people.

[KBern]

<cite>Gromann wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ballads wrote:</cite><blockquote>Bad info on the BP you shoulda used  aITEM -1729347897 -1367021392:Jindrack's Lucan D'Lere Action Figure/a   as your example. Which does come from unrest tho from a lvl 80x2 mob. I don't think he was meant to be beat but that didn't stop us from doing it. Grats eskie on her new dolly. P.S. could you make me like a lockeye Voodoo doll ? I promise to stab it with pins alot. </blockquote>If he has a loot table, he was obviously meant to be beat.  </blockquote>QFE

[Mirander_1]

<cite>Gromann wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ballads wrote:</cite><blockquote>Bad info on the BP you shoulda used  aITEM -1729347897 -1367021392:Jindrack's Lucan D'Lere Action Figure/a   as your example. Which does come from unrest tho from a lvl 80x2 mob. I don't think he was meant to be beat but that didn't stop us from doing it. Grats eskie on her new dolly. P.S. could you make me like a lockeye Voodoo doll ? I promise to stab it with pins alot. </blockquote><b>If he has a loot table, he was obviously meant to be beat.</b>  I'm just curious what kinda group setup you had to take down an 80x2 mob with 6 people. </blockquote>One word: Nagafen

[Sebastien]

<cite>arieste wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The time analysis is indeed simplistic and flawed, as I pointed out in my post (I guess I wasn't clear enough there.)</p><p>However on the risk/challenge argument you are not correct.  If you've ever had to manage or lead people you would know that with all other things being equal, it is harder to organize 24 people than 6.  So a zone with some sort of nominal difficulty of "10" will be harder when designed for 24 than for 6.  </p></blockquote><p> With respect, I believe this is another bit of raiding rhetoric that, when one stops to think about it, really doesn't hold water.  The problem here is that you are confusing in-game risk/reward with real-life (out of game) burdens.</p><p>The difficulty of coordinating 24 people's schedules, managing them, as you say, etc.. none of that is an in-game challenge.  Indeed (since you implied the question), I am a guild leader and have, in the past, been a raid leader.  I will tell you the single biggest thing I learned from doing that: raids are not any harder than anything else in these games.  What makes them hard is the real life burden that leading raids imposes on a person.</p><p>If Tim's parents pay for his internet access and EQ2 account, and he plays on his own computer in his room, while Sam has to walk through snow and sleet to play EQ2 at a cyber cafe, should Sam get better rewards once he logs into the game?  I'm trying to illustrate through hyperbole that the idea of rewarding out-of-game effort is a silly one.  In just the same way, it is silly for raiders to suggest that, because raiding is such an inherent burden on the real lives of the people that participate in it, that somehow they should be compensated for that.</p><p>Anyone who has raided knows just how trivial the in-game challenge can be.</p><p>Perhaps we can agree on this tho:</p><p>If there were a raid that was "challenging" for 24 people to complete, and if there were also a heroic instance that was equally as "challenging" for 6 people to complete, strictly according to the risk/reward curve, both of these activities should result in roughly the same level of reward over time, <i>per person</i>.  Now, if you want to provide an additional in-game incentive to raid, beyond the sheer joy of raiding, then perhaps you could argue that the reward from the raid in this case would be somewhat better, as a social incentive.</p><p>But to say that raids automatically yield rewards that no heroic instance should ever yield is a totally naive point of view, imo bad game design bored into people's brains by Brad and his "vision".</p>

[samejima]

<cite>Gromann wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ballads wrote:</cite><blockquote>Bad info on the BP you shoulda used  aITEM -1729347897 -1367021392:Jindrack's Lucan D'Lere Action Figure/a   as your example. Which does come from unrest tho from a lvl 80x2 mob. I don't think he was meant to be beat but that didn't stop us from doing it. Grats eskie on her new dolly. P.S. could you make me like a lockeye Voodoo doll ? I promise to stab it with pins alot. </blockquote>If he has a loot table, he was obviously meant to be beat.  I'm just curious what kinda group setup you had to take down an 80x2 mob with 6 people. </blockquote>Nagafen has a loot table.

[Judist]

<p><span style="color: #cc0000">I will tell you the single biggest thing I learned from doing that: raids are not any harder than anything else in these games.</span></p><p>No offense but thats a rather confident comment. Keeping 6 players focused is alot easier than 24 unless your guild has blown thru the raidzone many times. Even then, raiding will never be easier than group content.</p>

[SmCaudata]

Sebastien@Permafrost wrote: <blockquote><cite>arieste wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The time analysis is indeed simplistic and flawed, as I pointed out in my post (I guess I wasn't clear enough there.)</p><p>However on the risk/challenge argument you are not correct.  If you've ever had to manage or lead people you would know that with all other things being equal, it is harder to organize 24 people than 6.  So a zone with some sort of nominal difficulty of "10" will be harder when designed for 24 than for 6.  </p></blockquote><p> With respect, I believe this is another bit of raiding rhetoric that, when one stops to think about it, really doesn't hold water.  The problem here is that you are confusing in-game risk/reward with real-life (out of game) burdens.</p><p>The difficulty of coordinating 24 people's schedules, managing them, as you say, etc.. none of that is an in-game challenge.  Indeed (since you implied the question), I am a guild leader and have, in the past, been a raid leader.  I will tell you the single biggest thing I learned from doing that: raids are not any harder than anything else in these games.  What makes them hard is the real life burden that leading raids imposes on a person.</p><p>If Tim's parents pay for his internet access and EQ2 account, and he plays on his own computer in his room, while Sam has to walk through snow and sleet to play EQ2 at a cyber cafe, should Sam get better rewards once he logs into the game?  I'm trying to illustrate through hyperbole that the idea of rewarding out-of-game effort is a silly one.  In just the same way, it is silly for raiders to suggest that, because raiding is such an inherent burden on the real lives of the people that participate in it, that somehow they should be compensated for that.</p><p>Anyone who has raided knows just how trivial the in-game challenge can be.</p><p>Perhaps we can agree on this tho:</p><p>If there were a raid that was "challenging" for 24 people to complete, and if there were also a heroic instance that was equally as "challenging" for 6 people to complete, strictly according to the risk/reward curve, both of these activities should result in roughly the same level of reward over time, <i>per person</i>.  Now, if you want to provide an additional in-game incentive to raid, beyond the sheer joy of raiding, then perhaps you could argue that the reward from the raid in this case would be somewhat better, as a social incentive.</p><p>But to say that raids automatically yield rewards that no heroic instance should ever yield is a totally naive point of view, imo bad game design bored into people's brains by Brad and his "vision".</p></blockquote>As a raid leader how many repair kits did you burn through before clearing Labs or DT for the first time?  I suppose if you had experienced raiders with raid gear already and proven strats it wouldn't take long.  The guild I was a part of the first time we took down Vyemm spent a very long time in labs before getting to that day.  Now we 3 group it practically sleeping through.  Arguably Labs is the easiest of the KoS raid zones with the exception of Vyemm who is still easier than many of the named in the other zones. Now compare that to say, the Den, which is the easiest of the group instances for T7 IMO.  The second time I cleared that zone I was with 3 people who had never been there and 2 other that had only been there once or twice.  We had 2 deaths the whole zone.  Now I duo the zone with any healer on my swash, but that is due to raid gear.  I still run the zone because it is the only way to make money to cover the platinum I spend raiding.  I can get adds and not target things or whatever and still beat this zone.  When I raid, an add can wipe the raid just by double tapping your MT at the wrong time.  So yes the raid zones may be easy, but there is much less margin for error and still much harder than instanced stuff, with the exception of Nek3 and Niz. As it currently sit raids take a lot of time and a lot of coin and if those 24 people were to break up and run instances they would make more money in less time.  People raid for the loot and challenge.  If the loot isn't there, once the challenge goes away, what's the point in raiding?  Should non-raiders get a nice piece here and there for a long quest line or an exceptionally tough mob? Yes.  In fact I have no issues with raid quality gear dropping from a zone like Niz if the lockout is 7 days and coin and other body drops are non existent.  As it sits though, the only reward for raiding is to have the best gear that is unique.  Take that away, and what is the point?

[Sebastien]

<cite>Judist wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="color: #cc0000">I will tell you the single biggest thing I learned from doing that: raids are not any harder than anything else in these games.</span></p><p>No offense but thats a rather confident comment. Keeping 6 players focused is alot easier than 24 unless your guild has blown thru the raidzone many times. Even then, raiding will never be easier than group content.</p></blockquote><p> No offense taken.  We're all just having a civilized debate. =)</p><p>You say that raiding will <u>never</u> be easier than group content.  Does that mean that taking a raid of level 70 characters to a level 50 zone is harder than a team of 6 level 70's working through some of the challenging KoS instances?  Clearly there are times when a raid is easier than a heroic instance.  Raiders just try to drill it into everyone else's head that raiding is, by its nature, harder.  It's not.</p><p>None of you here, that are in raiding guilds, can honestly tell me you don't think there is any such thing as "farm status" for raids.  What could be more trivial and easy in a game than that?  Like I said before, if I am am the lone healer in a six-man team, even if everything in the instance is green to us, I can't just afk for 20 minutes.  If I attend a raid that is on farm status I could do exactly that. </p><p>You could have a legitimate point if you told me that certain, particular raids in the game right now are harder than certain, particular heroic instances.  Then I would have to agree that the rewards should be better, one vs. the other.  But you cannot maintain a blanket statement that all raids, no matter what level or what nature, are always harder than the most challenging possible heroic situation.  That simply isn't true, never was, never will be.</p>

[Caetrel]

deleted

[Groma]

<cite>samejima wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gromann wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ballads wrote:</cite><blockquote>Bad info on the BP you shoulda used  aITEM -1729347897 -1367021392:Jindrack's Lucan D'Lere Action Figure/a   as your example. Which does come from unrest tho from a lvl 80x2 mob. I don't think he was meant to be beat but that didn't stop us from doing it. Grats eskie on her new dolly. P.S. could you make me like a lockeye Voodoo doll ? I promise to stab it with pins alot. </blockquote>If he has a loot table, he was obviously meant to be beat.  I'm just curious what kinda group setup you had to take down an 80x2 mob with 6 people. </blockquote>Nagafen has a loot table. </blockquote>And where would i find this loot table, since he has never been killed.

[kenm]

<cite>Gromann wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>samejima wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gromann wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ballads wrote:</cite><blockquote>Bad info on the BP you shoulda used  aITEM -1729347897 -1367021392:Jindrack's Lucan D'Lere Action Figure/a   as your example. Which does come from unrest tho from a lvl 80x2 mob. I don't think he was meant to be beat but that didn't stop us from doing it. Grats eskie on her new dolly. P.S. could you make me like a lockeye Voodoo doll ? I promise to stab it with pins alot. </blockquote>If he has a loot table, he was obviously meant to be beat.  I'm just curious what kinda group setup you had to take down an 80x2 mob with 6 people. </blockquote>Nagafen has a loot table. </blockquote>And where would i find this loot table, since he has never been killed. </blockquote>He was killed in EoF beta and dropped T5 fabled loot, actually.

[KrAzE1]

"You say that raiding will never be easier than group content.  Does that mean that taking a raid of level 70 characters to a level 50 zone is harder than a team of 6 level 70's working through some of the challenging KoS instances?  Clearly there are times when a raid is easier than a heroic instance.  Raiders just try to drill it into everyone else's head that raiding is, by its nature, harder.  It's not." WOW! I'm confused with your comparing apples and oranges. How about 6 lvl 70's doing a lvl 50 instance would be comparing it equaly. Also with your way of thinking why stop at groups? Why not say screw it all together and forget raids and groups for that matter and make everything soloable and drop the best gear? I play just as long and hard why should I have to group? Since the rewards are the same forget grouping I'l just solo and keep all the loot for myself. Sounds stupid huh?  With your mentality, the KOS "challenging" instances you mention are not anymore difficult then any solo content at the same level. So I'm off to KOS to find the hardest single mob and kill it and LOW and BEHOLD I get the "SAME" nice fabled robe on a drop as you and 5 friends just got while clearing HOF but funny thing is I just got mine but there was another cloth wearer in your group that got a better role, so sorry. Just go try another instance maybe you will get it in 7 days when your lockout is up (raid humor)  Meanwhile Il go hit another solo mob and get me some more fabled screw that grouping stuff <img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Selioth]

Kenman@Najena wrote: <blockquote><cite>Gromann wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>samejima wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gromann wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ballads wrote:</cite><blockquote>Bad info on the BP you shoulda used  aITEM -1729347897 -1367021392:Jindrack's Lucan D'Lere Action Figure/a   as your example. Which does come from unrest tho from a lvl 80x2 mob. I don't think he was meant to be beat but that didn't stop us from doing it. Grats eskie on her new dolly. P.S. could you make me like a lockeye Voodoo doll ? I promise to stab it with pins alot. </blockquote>If he has a loot table, he was obviously meant to be beat.  I'm just curious what kinda group setup you had to take down an 80x2 mob with 6 people. </blockquote>Nagafen has a loot table. </blockquote>And where would i find this loot table, since he has never been killed. </blockquote>He was killed in EoF beta and dropped T5 fabled loot, actually. </blockquote>I killed him on EOF beta, you used the god charm on the 52x2 next to him and he stayed epic and then sent it in on nagafen and it killed him in a few min, I just healed the 52x2, Nagafen droped T5 fabled and rares

[Wayoff]

why haven't the mod dieb's locked this thread yet

[josephloceff]

Kenman@Najena wrote: <blockquote><cite>Gromann wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>samejima wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gromann wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ballads wrote:</cite><blockquote>Bad info on the BP you shoulda used  aITEM -1729347897 -1367021392:Jindrack's Lucan D'Lere Action Figure/a   as your example. Which does come from unrest tho from a lvl 80x2 mob. I don't think he was meant to be beat but that didn't stop us from doing it. Grats eskie on her new dolly. P.S. could you make me like a lockeye Voodoo doll ? I promise to stab it with pins alot. </blockquote>If he has a loot table, he was obviously meant to be beat.  I'm just curious what kinda group setup you had to take down an 80x2 mob with 6 people. </blockquote>Nagafen has a loot table. </blockquote>And where would i find this loot table, since he has never been killed. </blockquote>He was killed in EoF beta and dropped T5 fabled loot, actually. </blockquote>No actually he wasn't killed in EoF beta, it took us 3ish hours to get him down to 10% and then we all died. So no he was not killed in EoF beta

[HerzenFunia]

<cite>josephloceff wrote:</cite><blockquote>Kenman@Najena wrote: <blockquote><cite>Gromann wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>samejima wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gromann wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ballads wrote:</cite><blockquote>Bad info on the BP you shoulda used  aITEM -1729347897 -1367021392:Jindrack's Lucan D'Lere Action Figure/a   as your example. Which does come from unrest tho from a lvl 80x2 mob. I don't think he was meant to be beat but that didn't stop us from doing it. Grats eskie on her new dolly. P.S. could you make me like a lockeye Voodoo doll ? I promise to stab it with pins alot. </blockquote>If he has a loot table, he was obviously meant to be beat.  I'm just curious what kinda group setup you had to take down an 80x2 mob with 6 people. </blockquote>Nagafen has a loot table. </blockquote>And where would i find this loot table, since he has never been killed. </blockquote>He was killed in EoF beta and dropped T5 fabled loot, actually. </blockquote>No actually he wasn't killed in EoF beta, it took us 3ish hours to get him down to 10% and then we all died. So no he was not killed in EoF beta </blockquote>He was killed on beta... I even saw ss's with the loot.

[Krilinye]

<p>Aye he was, twice actually.</p><p>A necro had taken Cazic Thule as god (i think?) and that gives him a unresistable charm or something, so he went down, charmed Nagafen and used Implode i think to kill Nagafen (deals 150% dmg to your pet and deals like 2k dmg to everything around you) and he dropped a chest (very buggy i know)</p><p>He then proceeded into the KoS version of Nagafens lair andk illed him there too.</p>

[Sebastien]

<cite>KrAzE1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>WOW! I'm confused with your comparing apples and oranges. How about 6 lvl 70's doing a lvl 50 instance would be comparing it equaly. Also with your way of thinking why stop at groups? Why not say screw it all together and forget raids and groups for that matter and make everything soloable and drop the best gear? I play just as long and hard why should I have to group? Since the rewards are the same forget grouping I'l just solo and keep all the loot for myself. Sounds stupid huh?  With your mentality, the KOS "challenging" instances you mention are not anymore difficult then any solo content at the same level. </blockquote><p> I'm not comparing apples to oranges in that statement.  I'm exposing the fact that some posters inherently do exactly that when they try to make blanket statements that raiding is ALWAYS more difficult than heroic content.  Sorry if that confused you.</p><p>Secondly, I already addressed the issue of solo risk/reward vs. group risk/reward.  Please read some of my prior posts in this thread for details.  Thanks.</p>