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sayitaintso
02-27-2007, 11:26 AM
last night I would have cancelled my account... I got bored playing my high level toons and decided to create a level 1 Assasin and play him with no twinking. He would only spend the money that he had earned or use quest reward items. I knew level 1-20 were very easy to obtain, so I decided to forgo new weapons until I reached level 15. He did manage to obtain one new dagger at level 11 but that was through a quest reward and it wasn't much better than the newbie dagger he got on the island. SO when he dinged level 15 I marched him to East Freeport to buy some shiny new cuttlery...Open the broker window and what do I find... Iron Stilleto, 1 AGI.    6 gold...that was the LOWEST priced level 12-15 dual wield pig sticker in the list...I thought...this cant be right, so I broaded my search....It was still at teh bottom of the list.. The end all is, the lowest priced dual wield dagger for sale with decent stats 3 agi, 3 sta was <u><i><b>55 GOLD</b></i></u> for a level 13 dagger with a damage rating of 6.....Rediculous... MAYBE this is part of the reason that we have few if any new players.. IS this due to Diety sacrifice and Transmuting still? Is this because most of not all low level toons are now alts and their owners can afford to twink them out? At level 15 I had made 3 gold, and that was with a lot of effort...Could I have made 55 gold...Sure, had I wanted to take a week to level to 15....who wants to do that? The first 20 levels are about as dry as eating burnt toast with no jelly... So the economy still seems to be broken on Guk, as far as any new players are concerned..Economy failing, population falling apart....what's next SOE?

Pendant
02-27-2007, 11:41 AM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote> The end all is, the lowest priced dual wield dagger for sale with decent stats 3 agi, 3 sta was <u><i><b>55 GOLD</b></i></u> for a level 13 dagger with a damage rating of 6.....Rediculous... MAYBE this is part of the reason that we have few if any new players.. </blockquote><p> No, I'd take out the 'maybe'. Alts + twinking = market inflation, newcomers can't get a look-in. Until they learn how to twink, and then they become part of the problem <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I'd love to play on a one-player-one-toon server. But such a beast does not exist <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

liveja
02-27-2007, 11:53 AM
<p>I decided to try a similar experiment. I started on a totally new server, so I wouldn't know anyone at all; I played a Freeport character, since I don't know Freeport at all; & I chose a Shadowknight, since I've never played one before. That was about 2 weeks ago.</p><p>Since that time, the character has leveled (mostly solo) to 26, is decked out in entirely pristine imbued carbonite, has a nice proccing weapon & shield, 3-4 M1 spells, & 4 Ad3 spells. Harvested rares sell nicely, as do collectibles, & it doesn't take very many scores to build up a nice little nest egg. </p><p>Money-making is EASY in this game, & it's not difficult to find reasonable gear for your level, either. I see no reason why a new player, who chooses to actually PLAY the game & THINK, couldn't do the same thing I did, & I think that's true of any race, any class, on any given server.</p>

-AtPlay-
02-27-2007, 11:57 AM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote> IS this due to Diety sacrifice and Transmuting still? Is this because most of not all low level toons are now alts and their owners can afford to twink them out? </blockquote>Yup, all of the above!  The funny part is trying to be a crafter in the same market.  I can put up nearly anything in the 10-19 range and it will sell for a huge profit.  Anything I craft from 20+ I have to sell for fuel costs as a Woodworker, Weaponsmith, Tailor, Jeweler, and Alchemist.  Its terribly broken at the moment, and I have no idea if its even fixable.

Finora
02-27-2007, 11:59 AM
<p>Anything treasured and above is priced for transmuters.</p><p>They (SOE) were warned how this sort of thing could affect the newbie population. Their response was that the newbies could sell the stuff they get for the high prices so it worked out. </p><p>That being said, no one ever said you HAD to buy stuff from the broker. They tell you about tradeskills in the tutorials, and surely you can find someone who would be willing to make you some stuff for a reasonable price. I know you can on Everfrost, can't see why Guk would be any different.</p>

Rijacki
02-27-2007, 12:00 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote> SO when he dinged level 15 I marched him to East Freeport to buy some shiny new cuttlery...Open the broker window and what do I find... </blockquote>If you had opened the broker window before level 15 to sell items, you would have had that much and more.  If you'd done any amount of harvesting in T1 (especially loam and ore) and sold that (the commons), you would have had that much and more.  If you'd found a few rares while harvesting (real easy for T1 and T2), you would have had that much and more.  If you sold the adept 1 drops and gear drops you couldn't use, you would have had that much and more. Expecting money to come only from quests and selling to NPCs is very short-sighted.  Even brand new players figure that out pretty early.

Lord_Quaymar
02-27-2007, 12:02 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>last night I would have cancelled my account... I got bored playing my high level toons and decided to create a level 1 Assasin and play him with no twinking. He would only spend the money that he had earned or use quest reward items. I knew level 1-20 were very easy to obtain, so I decided to forgo new weapons until I reached level 15. He did manage to obtain one new dagger at level 11 but that was through a quest reward and it wasn't much better than the newbie dagger he got on the island. SO when he dinged level 15 I marched him to East Freeport to buy some shiny new cuttlery...Open the broker window and what do I find... Iron Stilleto, 1 AGI.    6 gold...that was the LOWEST priced level 12-15 dual wield pig sticker in the list...I thought...this cant be right, so I broaded my search....It was still at teh bottom of the list.. The end all is, the lowest priced dual wield dagger for sale with decent stats 3 agi, 3 sta was <u><i><b>55 GOLD</b></i></u> for a level 13 dagger with a damage rating of 6.....Rediculous... MAYBE this is part of the reason that we have few if any new players.. IS this due to Diety sacrifice and Transmuting still? Is this because most of not all low level toons are now alts and their owners can afford to twink them out? At level 15 I had made 3 gold, and that was with a lot of effort...Could I have made 55 gold...Sure, had I wanted to take a week to level to 15....who wants to do that? The first 20 levels are about as dry as eating burnt toast with no jelly... So the economy still seems to be broken on Guk, as far as any new players are concerned..Economy failing, population falling apart....what's next SOE? </blockquote>Then what you should do is find out where that 55 gold dagger drops and go get 2 of them. 1 to equip and one to sell for 50g! At level 15, you should have several plat. Just spend a few hours farming the collectibles in Antonica or the Commonlands....many of them sell for as much as 1p each. Simple.

Spyderbite
02-27-2007, 12:04 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote> SO when he dinged level 15 I marched him to East Freeport to buy some shiny new cuttlery...Open the broker window and what do I find... Iron Stilleto, 1 AGI.    6 gold...that was the LOWEST priced level 12-15 dual wield pig sticker in the list...I thought...this cant be right, so I broaded my search....It was still at teh bottom of the list..</blockquote> Heh.. yah I noticed the same thing when I went to outfit my level 11 Necro the other night. Was half tempted to give up all sense of ethics and have my main shoot him a few plat after seeing all the level 1-15 gear going for no less than 5 gold. There are other items that are worse.. jewelry. Holy Tarnished Gold Piece, Batman! Even quest rings with absolutely no bene's on them started at 6 gold! So, I grabbed the 2 gold I'd saved up on my young Necro and headed off to the NPC merchants and suited him up from head to toe. He'll go shopping again after he hits level 26. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Lord_Quaymar
02-27-2007, 12:17 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>SO when he dinged level 15 I marched him to East Freeport to buy some shiny new cuttlery...Open the broker window and what do I find... Iron Stilleto, 1 AGI.    6 gold...that was the LOWEST priced level 12-15 dual wield pig sticker in the list...I thought...this cant be right, so I broaded my search....It was still at teh bottom of the list..</blockquote> Heh.. yah I noticed the same thing when I went to outfit my level 11 Necro the other night. Was half tempted to give up all sense of ethics and have my main shoot him a few plat after seeing all the level 1-15 gear going for no less than 5 gold. There are other items that are worse.. jewelry. Holy Tarnished Gold Piece, Batman! Even quest rings with absolutely no bene's on them started at 6 gold! So, I grabbed the 2 gold I'd saved up on my young Necro and headed off to the NPC merchants and suited him up from head to toe. He'll go shopping again after he hits level 26. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote>But what about all the 1-15 drops that your Necro gets that he can't use? Don't you sell them for the same 5 gold or so? No? Well that's why you don't have enough to buy what you need! It's all relative. If all the 1-15 items were selling for 1g or less but you still didn't sell the items you found for that price, there is no way you could afford the stuff at 1g either.

Thunderthyze
02-27-2007, 12:26 PM
<cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you had opened the broker window before level 15 to sell items, you would have had that much and more.  If you'd done any amount of harvesting in T1 (especially loam and ore) and sold that (the commons), you would have had that much and more.  If you'd found a few rares while harvesting (real easy for T1 and T2), you would have had that much and more.  If you sold the adept 1 drops and gear drops you couldn't use, you would have had that much and more. Expecting money to come only from quests and selling to NPCs is very short-sighted.  Even brand new players figure that out pretty early. </blockquote><p> I think the OP's point was that a newb would be unaware these avenues are available. I think there is little argument that the game is a LOT harder to get a toehold in now than when I started 2 years ago.</p><p>C'est la vie</p><p>/shrug</p>

liveja
02-27-2007, 12:34 PM
<cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote>Expecting money to come only from quests and selling to NPCs is very short-sighted.  Even brand new players figure that out pretty early. </blockquote></blockquote><p>Precisely.</p><p>I note the OP even acknowledged he/she could have made a lot more money, but wanted to level more quickly. IOW, the OP made a conscious decision, & then decided he/she didn't like the consequences of that decision. The thread says absolutely nothing at all about the state of EQ2 for "new players". </p>

Ebjelen
02-27-2007, 12:38 PM
<cite>Pendant wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] wrote: <blockquote> The end all is, the lowest priced dual wield dagger for sale with decent stats 3 agi, 3 sta was <u><i><b>55 GOLD</b></i></u> for a level 13 dagger with a damage rating of 6.....Rediculous... MAYBE this is part of the reason that we have few if any new players.. </blockquote><p> No, I'd take out the 'maybe'. Alts + twinking = market inflation, newcomers can't get a look-in. Until they learn how to twink, and then they become part of the problem <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I'd love to play on a one-player-one-toon server. But such a beast does not exist <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote><p>I can think of two games right off that meet your conditions. Both have sizable player bases and both have been online for years.</p><p>Project Entropia allows exactly 1 toon per account. There is only 1 server. Certainly you can twink yourself by adding in lots of cash, but you don't have to put much in to just play and keep up.</p><p>Eve-Online gives you 3 toons per account. Again, there is only 1 server. The trick is that all skill training is real-time based and you can only have 1 of your three toons advancing at any givien time. Training a new toon means you stop advancing your old toon. So, the vast majority of players have only 1 toon per account.</p><p>You can research either of those games via google and get a free download.</p><p>This still does not slow down twinking. There is nothing to prevent a person from buying additional accounts.</p><p>What you're proposing is that SoE set an enforce a set of rules on playstyle, above and beyond normal gameplay rules. In other words, you want to tell other people how to play.</p><p>If you don't want to twink, then don't. But you need to remember that other people want to play differently and they get to do so. That to me is the hardest aspect of living in a free society: letting other people enjoy their freedom their way. </p>

liveja
02-27-2007, 12:38 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>I think the OP's point was that a newb would be unaware these avenues are available.</blockquote><p>Is the "newb" also utterly unaware of chat channels, & other players from whom one can ask for help? Because, seriously, that's the only way this "newb would be unaware these avenues are available" argument carries any weight at all.</p>

Beldin_
02-27-2007, 12:51 PM
Most "newbs" i know, are aware of it, and most of these "newbs" are 10 times better gearead then everybody else who played since beginning was with his first characters <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

FairysTear
02-27-2007, 12:59 PM
<p>I did play eq2 on the day it went live and for about a month. That was 3 years ago and I just came back to the game. I am not a "true" newb but as close as they come (IMHO anyway). I found the last time I played it was hard for me to earn pp, took a month for me to get my first pp.  This time around I have no pp issues at all. </p><p>The difference was last time all I wanted was to get to top level and raid. So while all my group mates were running off after that glowing "?" or a harvest node ( looking for that rare), I was /sigh lets move it please. I did level fast but had NO money. At level 33 I used all my PP for a first level horse, that was really slow. </p><p>Now I am giving it another go and this time I am stopping to find the "?" and spend a day every now and then just running around looking for "?" as well as harvesting my brains out. My char is doing great, she has gear to her level, her spells where I want them, some fun toys for my house, 7pp in the bank and a pretty good horse. I may level slower this way but I am way more comfy doing it. When I am level 70 I feel my char will be stronger for it as well. Not to mention that you dont have to ignor exp while doing this "farming" as I call it. You can go and kill mobs while hunting for pp items( ? or harvest nodes) so you get exp and pp at the same time. Then sell the mob drops you dont need as well and you have more pp. </p><p>I use my broker board nonstop and have stuff in my house vault waiting for room in my vet display case. As I empty a slot I fill it again. I was given this advice with in my first day of playing again.  So get a broker board and start selling some stuff, and you too can have pp for what you want and need, and still level fairly fast.</p>

DngrMou
02-27-2007, 01:01 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>At level 15 I had made 3 gold, and that was with a lot of effort...Could I have made 55 gold...Sure, had I wanted to take a week to level to 15....who wants to do that? The first 20 levels are about as dry as eating burnt toast with no jelly... So the economy still seems to be broken on Guk, as far as any new players are concerned..Economy failing, population falling apart....what's next SOE? </blockquote> 3 gold?  Did I read that right?   At level 15 you made a combined total of 3 gold?  Three?  Wow....I think I see part of your problem right there.

Siclone
02-27-2007, 01:03 PM
<p>thank god for gold sellers, only way a noob could really enjoy the game </p>

Lord_Quaymar
02-27-2007, 01:03 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><p>Now I am giving it another go and this time I am stopping to find the "?" and spend a day every now and then just running around looking for "?" as well as harvesting my brains out. My char is doing great, she has gear to her level, her spells where I want them, some fun toys for my house, 7pp in the bank and a pretty good horse. I may level slower this way but I am way more comfy doing it. When I am level 70 I feel my char will be stronger for it as well. Not to mention that you dont have to ignor exp while doing this "farming" as I call it. You can go and kill mobs while hunting for pp items( ? or harvest nodes) so you get exp and pp at the same time. Then sell the mob drops you dont need as well and you have more pp. </p><p>I use my broker board nonstop and have stuff in my house vault waiting for room in my vet display case. As I empty a slot I fill it again. I was given this advice with in my first day of playing again.  So get a broker board and start selling some stuff, and you too can have pp for what you want and need, and still level fairly fast.</p></blockquote>Exactly.....it isn't rocket science.

Jesdyr
02-27-2007, 01:09 PM
I started about 1 month ago and so far have not had much of a problem but, the market is totaly messed up for anything treasured or higher. I found at lvl 30ish that my master I spells were selling for LESS than the rares used to make the adept III spells. This was shocking but I had no problem unloading my rare harvested materials and buying master I spells <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

UlteriorModem
02-27-2007, 01:17 PM
<p>I AM a new player.</p><p>I have never recieved a copper from another player as a gift.</p><p>I do have two charecters one is a provisioner the other is an adventurer / gatherer.</p><p>Through a lot of "hard work" and alot of "learning" I have managed to put a few plat in the bank, Own my apartment, and have fairly decent skills and armor / weapons.</p><p>It was not easy but it can be done.</p><p>I guess the key thing here is that it was not easy. If you want easy maybe hello kitty adventure island is more suitable.</p>

Jai1
02-27-2007, 02:45 PM
<p>I was going to make my own post or similiar to this but this is a good place for my concerns.  First off,  it's not about the money.  I don't really have some kinda ethics or desire not to leverage my money to make my played time better.   I have put about 6 toons through T1-3 in the last few months or so and the market sucks.  Once again it's not the money because I'll spend 6-10g per item if I can find it.  That may vary because I see Attunables for 6ish gold and don't see the value there.  </p><p>So I'm playing, with a lot of money, and just want to get geared up so I will have a better played.  My wife and I got two characters to 22 and I took them shopping.  I found jack-[Removed for Content] to buy.  I ended up buying 9 clusters of steel because my options were slim.  There is absolutely no reason, even transmutting, that the market needs to be so bare.  I don't think making money is hard and is not my point.  The fact that most of you are making it and not talking about the relatively lackluster itemization of T1-3 make me wonder when the last time you tried to gear up a T2-T3 charater.  At t4 everything seems to be better.</p><p>This is a big problem in my mind.   New players don't want to spend 3-5g for a piece that has hardly any stats.  Or maybe it's that I don't.   I also don't want to pay 5-7g for an attunable.  That stuff is junk and is like buying steel clusters for 70 gold.  It's not worth it to me in my mind.  I want value.  </p><p>I am assuming that since I can't find value, and pristine carbonite for 3g a piece is not a value, I'm not sure how the new players do.  The best thing for me is when I can gear myself up when I lvl.  I imagine that satisfaction applies to other players.  I seem to find the same gear all around.   There doesn't seem to be much variety(T1-3).   </p><p>There's talk about re-itemizing the last tiers stuff.  I mean is that really a problem?  Gear is an important aspect to playing or at least the feeling of progression.  I have no problem finding gear at T6-T6.  Lots availible.  KoS to EoF might be messed up I don't know. Since I'm not new and have played a few characters, I might have a different perspective and be less satisfied with what's availible for what price at the lower levels.</p><p>I don't see what the harm would be in increasing the drop rate and expanding the loot tables for T1-3.  Actually T1 isn't all that important.  I'd like to see some logic that increases players chances for getting items that drop to be of use.  Spells the same way. My brigand got 2 spells they could use on the island and 1 at T2.  I was thrilled.  It's all luck but if a new player got the same they might reup their subscriptions. </p><p>All this talk about declining populations would make addressing this a good thing.  Hook the players with gear!!  I know when I'm playing a new game and I get gear I can use, it usually make me want to play a little more and get more gear and levels.   I just wonder how many people get turned off but the itemization and availibility of gear T2-3.  I know I'd spend more if there were things to buy.  It doesn't make sense that Steel is my best option.  Like I said 6 chars through in the past months and T3 is ghetto time and I have been pushing through it to 30 when things seem to be better.  How would new players know things would change.  Again, they might not know any better.</p>

Lord_Quaymar
02-27-2007, 02:54 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><p>I was going to make my own post or similiar to this but this is a good place for my concerns.  First off,  it's not about the money.  I don't really have some kinda ethics or desire not to leverage my money to make my played time better.   I have put about 6 toons through T1-3 in the last few months or so and the market sucks.  Once again it's not the money because I'll spend 6-10g per item if I can find it.  That may vary because I see Attunables for 6ish gold and don't see the value there.  </p><p>So I'm playing, with a lot of money, and just want to get geared up so I will have a better played.  My wife and I got two characters to 22 and I took them shopping.  I found jack-[I cannot control my vocabulary] to buy.  I ended up buying 9 clusters of steel because my options were slim.  There is absolutely no reason, even transmutting, that the market needs to be so bare.  I don't think making money is hard and is not my point.  The fact that most of you are making it and not talking about the relatively lackluster itemization of T1-3 make me wonder when the last time you tried to gear up a T2-T3 charater.  At t4 everything seems to be better.</p><p>This is a big problem in my mind.   New players don't want to spend 3-5g for a piece that has hardly any stats.  Or maybe it's that I don't.   I also don't want to pay 5-7g for an attunable.  That stuff is junk and is like buying steel clusters for 70 gold.  It's not worth it to me in my mind.  I want value.  </p><p>I am assuming that since I can't find value, and pristine carbonite for 3g a piece is not a value, I'm not sure how the new players do.  The best thing for me is when I can gear myself up when I lvl.  I imagine that satisfaction applies to other players.  I seem to find the same gear all around.   There doesn't seem to be much variety(T1-3).   </p><p>There's talk about re-itemizing the last tiers stuff.  I mean is that really a problem?  Gear is an important aspect to playing or at least the feeling of progression.  I have no problem finding gear at T6-T6.  Lots availible.  KoS to EoF might be messed up I don't know. Since I'm not new and have played a few characters, I might have a different perspective and be less satisfied with what's availible for what price at the lower levels.</p><p>I don't see what the harm would be in increasing the drop rate and expanding the loot tables for T1-3.  Actually T1 isn't all that important.  I'd like to see some logic that increases players chances for getting items that drop to be of use.  Spells the same way. My brigand got 2 spells they could use on the island and 1 at T2.  I was thrilled.  It's all luck but if a new player got the same they might reup their subscriptions. </p><p>All this talk about declining populations would make addressing this a good thing.  Hook the players with gear!!  I know when I'm playing a new game and I get gear I can use, it usually make me want to play a little more and get more gear and levels.   I just wonder how many people get turned off but the itemization and availibility of gear T2-3.  I know I'd spend more if there were things to buy.  It doesn't make sense that Steel is my best option.  Like I said 6 chars through in the past months and T3 is ghetto time and I have been pushing through it to 30 when things seem to be better.  How would new players know things would change.  Again, they might not know any better.</p></blockquote> The reason you are having a rough time finding anything in T1-3 is because people blow through it so fast so they don't spend too much time getting loot drops and such and having "great" gear in those tiers is really not necessary. Just get the rare crafted armor for that tier and move on...you will do just fine and save money too.

zhiDarkivel
02-27-2007, 03:02 PM
I know there's a lot of talk of declining populations and no new people in the game, but does anyone have hard evidence of that fact?  During the Hearts'a'flutter contest, I had an alt just sitting at the West Freeport gates, joining the contest to get the consolation rose (or sometimes 3rd or 4th if not many people competing), and during that time, I saw lots of people coming and doing the quest for Nephet (a mid-teens level Freeport quest.)  And I do mean lots.  Several times an hour I'd see "Hail Nephet." Even if half of them were alts, that would mean 4 or 5 new people I was seeing every day, which seems like a pretty healthy join rate.

mellowknees72
02-27-2007, 03:02 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you had opened the broker window before level 15 to sell items, you would have had that much and more.  If you'd done any amount of harvesting in T1 (especially loam and ore) and sold that (the commons), you would have had that much and more.  If you'd found a few rares while harvesting (real easy for T1 and T2), you would have had that much and more.  If you sold the adept 1 drops and gear drops you couldn't use, you would have had that much and more. Expecting money to come only from quests and selling to NPCs is very short-sighted.  Even brand new players figure that out pretty early. </blockquote><p> I think the OP's point was that a newb would be unaware these avenues are available. I think there is little argument that the game is a LOT harder to get a toehold in now than when I started 2 years ago.</p><p>C'est la vie</p><p>/shrug</p></blockquote><p> I totally disagree - if newbies go to the various newbie zones around their hometown, there are TONS of quests to get a good set of armor (min level 12 I think - at least in Qeynos).  It's good equipment - much better than could be gotten when I started my first character "back in the day".  That gets them MORE than a toehold IMO.  While they're doing those quests, they get drops that they can sell.</p><p>What would <b>REALLY</b> help newbies would be a quest teaching them how to place items on the market for others to buy via the broker.  Then they'd know what to do with all those Adept I books that drop that they can't use.</p>

rakki
02-27-2007, 03:09 PM
<cite>Lord_Quaymar wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><p>I was going to make my own post or similiar to this but this is a good place for my concerns.  First off,  it's not about the money.  I don't really have some kinda ethics or desire not to leverage my money to make my played time better.   I have put about 6 toons through T1-3 in the last few months or so and the market sucks.  Once again it's not the money because I'll spend 6-10g per item if I can find it.  That may vary because I see Attunables for 6ish gold and don't see the value there.  </p><p>So I'm playing, with a lot of money, and just want to get geared up so I will have a better played.  My wife and I got two characters to 22 and I took them shopping.  I found jack-[I cannot control my vocabulary] to buy.  I ended up buying 9 clusters of steel because my options were slim.  There is absolutely no reason, even transmutting, that the market needs to be so bare.  I don't think making money is hard and is not my point.  The fact that most of you are making it and not talking about the relatively lackluster itemization of T1-3 make me wonder when the last time you tried to gear up a T2-T3 charater.  At t4 everything seems to be better.</p><p>This is a big problem in my mind.   New players don't want to spend 3-5g for a piece that has hardly any stats.  Or maybe it's that I don't.   I also don't want to pay 5-7g for an attunable.  That stuff is junk and is like buying steel clusters for 70 gold.  It's not worth it to me in my mind.  I want value.  </p><p>I am assuming that since I can't find value, and pristine carbonite for 3g a piece is not a value, I'm not sure how the new players do.  The best thing for me is when I can gear myself up when I lvl.  I imagine that satisfaction applies to other players.  I seem to find the same gear all around.   There doesn't seem to be much variety(T1-3).   </p><p>There's talk about re-itemizing the last tiers stuff.  I mean is that really a problem?  Gear is an important aspect to playing or at least the feeling of progression.  I have no problem finding gear at T6-T6.  Lots availible.  KoS to EoF might be messed up I don't know. Since I'm not new and have played a few characters, I might have a different perspective and be less satisfied with what's availible for what price at the lower levels.</p><p>I don't see what the harm would be in increasing the drop rate and expanding the loot tables for T1-3.  Actually T1 isn't all that important.  I'd like to see some logic that increases players chances for getting items that drop to be of use.  Spells the same way. My brigand got 2 spells they could use on the island and 1 at T2.  I was thrilled.  It's all luck but if a new player got the same they might reup their subscriptions. </p><p>All this talk about declining populations would make addressing this a good thing.  Hook the players with gear!!  I know when I'm playing a new game and I get gear I can use, it usually make me want to play a little more and get more gear and levels.   I just wonder how many people get turned off but the itemization and availibility of gear T2-3.  I know I'd spend more if there were things to buy.  It doesn't make sense that Steel is my best option.  Like I said 6 chars through in the past months and T3 is ghetto time and I have been pushing through it to 30 when things seem to be better.  How would new players know things would change.  Again, they might not know any better.</p></blockquote> The reason you are having a rough time finding anything in T1-3 is because people blow through it so fast so they don't spend too much time getting loot drops and such and having "great" gear in those tiers is really not necessary. Just get the rare crafted armor for that tier and move on...you will do just fine and save money too.</blockquote>Uhh your wrong as usual.. He isn't finding anything because of transmuters.. I also call BS to the person saying they have 7 plat and a good fast horse..They never mentioned their level but made it known she/he wasn't 70..You'd have to be super lucky and loot some rare master which would sell really well to make these claims and chances are high that smart people aren't even buying sub 55 masters cause adept 3 do the trick and are less than a plat with your own rares. I never made a plat on my first character till lvl 50. My next character never had 7p and a good horse till well after level 70.. I also call BS on selling low level shinies for a plat.. I can't sell high level shines for 1-5 gold let alone a plat..

Sebastien
02-27-2007, 03:10 PM
I'm just chiming in to give OP credit for properly using the conditional tense of "to be", even though the word "a" was mispelled.  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Lord_Quaymar
02-27-2007, 03:13 PM
<cite>rakki wrote:</cite><blockquote>Uhh your wrong as usual.. He isn't finding anything because of transmuters.. I also call BS to the person saying they have 7 plat and a good fast horse.. I never made a plat on my first character till lvl 50. My next character never had 7p and a good horse till well after level 70.. I also call BS on selling low level shinies for a plat.. I can't sell high level shines for 1-g gold let alone a plat.. </blockquote><p> Sure...transmuting plays a part but that hardly makes me wrong.</p><p>The person claiming 7p and a fast horse is very likely telling the truth. I had 10p by level 20...it isn't that hard to do especially when many of the collectibles from Antonica, TS, Commonlands and Nek can sell for up to 2p for just one.</p><p>Name your server and I bet I could post a screen shot of low level collectibles for 1-2p. Call BS all you want but it is YOU that is wrong....as usual.  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

sayitaintso
02-27-2007, 03:16 PM
<cite>Lord_Quaymar wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>last night I would have cancelled my account... I got bored playing my high level toons and decided to create a level 1 Assasin and play him with no twinking. He would only spend the money that he had earned or use quest reward items. I knew level 1-20 were very easy to obtain, so I decided to forgo new weapons until I reached level 15. He did manage to obtain one new dagger at level 11 but that was through a quest reward and it wasn't much better than the newbie dagger he got on the island. SO when he dinged level 15 I marched him to East Freeport to buy some shiny new cuttlery...Open the broker window and what do I find... Iron Stilleto, 1 AGI.    6 gold...that was the LOWEST priced level 12-15 dual wield pig sticker in the list...I thought...this cant be right, so I broaded my search....It was still at teh bottom of the list.. The end all is, the lowest priced dual wield dagger for sale with decent stats 3 agi, 3 sta was <u><i><b>55 GOLD</b></i></u> for a level 13 dagger with a damage rating of 6.....Rediculous... MAYBE this is part of the reason that we have few if any new players.. IS this due to Diety sacrifice and Transmuting still? Is this because most of not all low level toons are now alts and their owners can afford to twink them out? At level 15 I had made 3 gold, and that was with a lot of effort...Could I have made 55 gold...Sure, had I wanted to take a week to level to 15....who wants to do that? The first 20 levels are about as dry as eating burnt toast with no jelly... So the economy still seems to be broken on Guk, as far as any new players are concerned..Economy failing, population falling apart....what's next SOE? </blockquote>Then what you should do is find out where that 55 gold dagger drops and go get 2 of them. 1 to equip and one to sell for 50g! At level 15, you should have several plat. Just spend a few hours farming the collectibles in Antonica or the Commonlands....many of them sell for as much as 1p each. Simple. </blockquote>HUH? it took me 2 hours to reach level 15...so you are saying a new player has to spend "a few hours" harvesting just to have enough coin to outfit themselves decently before continuing to level? Sure, any new player is going to want to do that.....those of us who started playing when the game was new didn't have to do that....OH WAIT we are back to how changing WORKING game mechanics has borked EQ2...no new players is a death sentence for any game.....

rakki
02-27-2007, 03:20 PM
<cite>Lord_Quaymar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>rakki wrote:</cite><blockquote>Uhh your wrong as usual.. He isn't finding anything because of transmuters.. I also call BS to the person saying they have 7 plat and a good fast horse.. I never made a plat on my first character till lvl 50. My next character never had 7p and a good horse till well after level 70.. I also call BS on selling low level shinies for a plat.. I can't sell high level shines for 1-g gold let alone a plat.. </blockquote><p> Sure...transmuting plays a part but that hardly makes me wrong.</p><p>The person claiming 7p and a fast horse is very likely telling the truth. I had 10p by level 20...it isn't that hard to do especially when many of the collectibles from Antonica, TS, Commonlands and Nek can sell for up to 2p for just one.</p><p>Name your server and I bet I could post a screen shot of low level collectibles for 1-2p. Call BS all you want but it is YOU that is wrong....as usual.  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote>I think I'm on the wrong server.. How inflated is your economy? I can't see this being true for lvl 20.. I honestly never made my first plat till around lvl 45, then hit 2 plat at 50 or so and re-rolled another toon which didn't roll into any plat till 61 when a rare mystic master spell sold for 44 plat which was used to buy about 5 defiler masters, a 10 plat horse 48%, and I was broke again.. My shinies don't sell either.. and they are allways put on the broker as the lowest priced. None of my junk really sells except looted legendary gear or masters I can't use..

Lord_Quaymar
02-27-2007, 03:23 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>HUH? it took me 2 hours to reach level 15...so you are saying a new player has to spend "a few hours" harvesting just to have enough coin to outfit themselves decently before continuing to level? Sure, any new player is going to want to do that.....those of us who started playing when the game was new didn't have to do that....OH WAIT we are back to how changing WORKING game mechanics has borked EQ2...no new players is a death sentence for any game..... </blockquote><p> HUH? Why do you want to even bother with buying anything if you can blow through the levels that fast? What's the point? why even worry about getting upgrades if you're just going to replace them in a couple hours?</p><p>I took my time (Only about a year ago FYI) and spent some time "farming" up to level 20 and wound up with 10p then I never had to worry about upgrades again...seems worthwhile to me.../shrug.</p>

Lord_Quaymar
02-27-2007, 03:29 PM
<cite>rakki wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lord_Quaymar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>rakki wrote:</cite><blockquote>Uhh your wrong as usual.. He isn't finding anything because of transmuters.. I also call BS to the person saying they have 7 plat and a good fast horse.. I never made a plat on my first character till lvl 50. My next character never had 7p and a good horse till well after level 70.. I also call BS on selling low level shinies for a plat.. I can't sell high level shines for 1-g gold let alone a plat.. </blockquote><p> Sure...transmuting plays a part but that hardly makes me wrong.</p><p>The person claiming 7p and a fast horse is very likely telling the truth. I had 10p by level 20...it isn't that hard to do especially when many of the collectibles from Antonica, TS, Commonlands and Nek can sell for up to 2p for just one.</p><p>Name your server and I bet I could post a screen shot of low level collectibles for 1-2p. Call BS all you want but it is YOU that is wrong....as usual.  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote>I think I'm on the wrong server.. How inflated is your economy? I can't see this being true for lvl 20.. I honestly never made my first plat till around lvl 45, then hit 2 plat at 50 or so and re-rolled another toon which didn't roll into any plat till 61 when a rare mystic master spell sold for 44 plat which was used to buy about 5 defiler masters, a 10 plat horse 48%, and I was broke again.. My shinies don't sell either.. and they are allways put on the broker as the lowest priced. None of my junk really sells except looted legendary gear or masters I can't use.. </blockquote><p>Cmon....name your server and I will show you soon as I get home from work. If you're afraid of being proven wrong in a public forum....do a search for Antonican Ficus Leaves, the Dark Brown one is the rare and it probably sells for a good amount. Or do a search for Pine Needles....those ALL sell for 1-2p on my server and they can be found in Nek Forest. how about Cracked Bones? The Cracked Barbarian Bone is the rarest one but others sell well also. I could go on but this should be enough to get you started.</p><p>If your "shinies" aren't selling it's probably because you are selling the most common ones that are easily found. </p>

Badaxe Ba
02-27-2007, 03:52 PM
<cite>Lord_Quaymar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>rakki wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lord_Quaymar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>rakki wrote:</cite><blockquote>Uhh your wrong as usual.. He isn't finding anything because of transmuters.. I also call BS to the person saying they have 7 plat and a good fast horse.. I never made a plat on my first character till lvl 50. My next character never had 7p and a good horse till well after level 70.. I also call BS on selling low level shinies for a plat.. I can't sell high level shines for 1-g gold let alone a plat.. </blockquote><p> Sure...transmuting plays a part but that hardly makes me wrong.</p><p>The person claiming 7p and a fast horse is very likely telling the truth. I had 10p by level 20...it isn't that hard to do especially when many of the collectibles from Antonica, TS, Commonlands and Nek can sell for up to 2p for just one.</p><p>Name your server and I bet I could post a screen shot of low level collectibles for 1-2p. Call BS all you want but it is YOU that is wrong....as usual.  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote>I think I'm on the wrong server.. How inflated is your economy? I can't see this being true for lvl 20.. I honestly never made my first plat till around lvl 45, then hit 2 plat at 50 or so and re-rolled another toon which didn't roll into any plat till 61 when a rare mystic master spell sold for 44 plat which was used to buy about 5 defiler masters, a 10 plat horse 48%, and I was broke again.. My shinies don't sell either.. and they are allways put on the broker as the lowest priced. None of my junk really sells except looted legendary gear or masters I can't use.. </blockquote><p>Cmon....name your server and I will show you soon as I get home from work. If you're afraid of being proven wrong in a public forum....do a search for Antonican Ficus Leaves, the Dark Brown one is the rare and it probably sells for a good amount. Or do a search for Pine Needles....those ALL sell for 1-2p on my server and they can be found in Nek Forest. how about Cracked Bones? The Cracked Barbarian Bone is the rarest one but others sell well also. I could go on but this should be enough to get you started.</p><p>If your "shinies" aren't selling it's probably because you are selling the most common ones that are easily found. </p></blockquote><p>And therein lies the rub.  Which shiny are you selling.  The commonplace easily found ones, or the ultra rare, that you need for your own collection.  It doesn't matter which server, there are high priced collectibles on every one.  There are also 100 times more of the common ones, some even as low as 10c, because that will get you more than selling to a vendor.  And just because you might see a collectible at 1p, doesn't mean customers are rushing to buy that either.  Why spend a plat for a t1-t2 collectible, when you can go out looking for free?  Using the collectible market as a reason that new players should have all the money they need is ridiculous. And how many lvl 15 toons do you see running around nek forest bent over a shiny?  </p><p>The truth of the matter is the lack of a larger base of truly new players, thereby reducing market influence.  New players are still learning how to play their characters, and exploring the game, and for that matter how to even search for things on the broker. </p>

Lord_Quaymar
02-27-2007, 03:59 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>And just because you might see a collectible at 1p, doesn't mean customers are rushing to buy that either.  Why spend a plat for a t1-t2 collectible, when you can go out looking for free?  Using the collectible market as a reason that new players should have all the money they need is ridiculous. And how many lvl 15 toons do you see running around nek forest bent over a shiny?  </blockquote><p> I haven't just SEEN collectibles for 1p or more, I SELL them for that much all the time.</p><p>Why spend the plat for it rather than going out and getting it? Simple....think about it....some people just flat out hate such a tedious task and rather than spending what could be MANY hours searching for that one last rare collectible, they gladly pay 1-2p so they DON'T have to spend the time looking for it. Most people in the higher levels can make more than 1-2p in that amount of time so it only makes sense to spend the plat rather than the time.</p><p>Other folks have more time than plat so they do the opposite...they go out and farm them thar shinies, get the ones they need plus some others to sell and then everyone's happy. </p>

Badaxe Ba
02-27-2007, 04:03 PM
And I was specifically referring to new players doing this, not people who've been around a while.  I personally have never and will never pay a plat for a collectible, its just not in my nature.  My cap is 10g.  But that is me, and I'm level 70. A new player hasn't even started collecting yet.  The people buying your 1p collectibles aren't new players obviously. 

sayitaintso
02-27-2007, 04:07 PM
<cite>UlteriorModem wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I AM a new player.</p><p>I have never recieved a copper from another player as a gift.</p><p>I do have two charecters one is a provisioner the other is an adventurer / gatherer.</p><p>Through a lot of "hard work" and alot of "learning" I have managed to put a few plat in the bank, Own my apartment, and have fairly decent skills and armor / weapons.</p><p>It was not easy but it can be done.</p><p>I guess the key thing here is that it was not easy. If you want easy maybe hello kitty adventure island is more suitable.</p></blockquote> I call BS, you have way too many posts here to be a NEW player.....How much money did you have at level 15 and how long did it take you to reach that level?

Lord_Quaymar
02-27-2007, 04:12 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>And I was specifically referring to new players doing this, not people who've been around a while.  I personally have never and will never pay a plat for a collectible, its just not in my nature.  My cap is 10g.  But that is me, and I'm level 70. A new player hasn't even started collecting yet.  The people buying your 1p collectibles aren't new players obviously.  </blockquote><p> Well...see....it all started for me back when I was hunting in Antonica...a brand spanking newbie. I happened to notice that there was 1 collectible that I still needed to complete the Antonican Ficus Leaf collection...the Dark Brown one. So off I go to the broker to see if I can just buy one cheap. HOLY CRAP!! I said as I noticed that there were 3 for sale but they all cost 75g to 1p...OMG! My next thought was "Wow....I HAVE to find out where those are" and the rest is history. Not only did I get the one I needed but I kept looking for more and managed to find another one to sell for 74g.</p><p>Amazing how easy it is for a newbie to figure that out eh?</p>

Lord_Quaymar
02-27-2007, 04:13 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><cite>UlteriorModem wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I AM a new player.</p><p>I have never recieved a copper from another player as a gift.</p><p>I do have two charecters one is a provisioner the other is an adventurer / gatherer.</p><p>Through a lot of "hard work" and alot of "learning" I have managed to put a few plat in the bank, Own my apartment, and have fairly decent skills and armor / weapons.</p><p>It was not easy but it can be done.</p><p>I guess the key thing here is that it was not easy. If you want easy maybe hello kitty adventure island is more suitable.</p></blockquote> I call BS, you have way too many posts here to be a NEW player.....How much money did you have at level 15 and how long did it take you to reach that level? </blockquote>I don't know about him but I had 10p by level 20. It isn't hard to do.

Badaxe Ba
02-27-2007, 04:21 PM
<p>FYI, I still haven't finished my antonican leaf collection.  Do I care?  No.  Would a new player?  Maybe.  Will he spend the time earning a plat to pay for that last leaf?  Maybe.  Maybe not.  Maybe like you, he will see the broker price and be inspired to go do the same as you, and underprice you. then you can buy it, mark it up to a higher price, and we are back at the beginning, except the next new player will be no better off at all.</p>

Jeger_Wulf
02-27-2007, 04:25 PM
<p>> Expecting money to come only from quests and selling to NPCs is very > short-sighted.  Even brand new players figure that out pretty early.</p><p>You guys don't remember what it was like to be a newb. I played for quite a while before I checked a broker. They are mostly hidden away in crafting instances, which I never visited. I played for a while longer before I started selling on one. </p><p>I'm glad prices weren't like this when I started playing. </p>

Lord_Quaymar
02-27-2007, 04:30 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><p>FYI, I still haven't finished my antonican leaf collection.  Do I care?  No.  Would a new player?  Maybe.  Will he spend the time earning a plat to pay for that last leaf?  Maybe.  Maybe not.  Maybe like you, he will see the broker price and be inspired to go do the same as you, and underprice you. then you can buy it, mark it up to a higher price, and we are back at the beginning, except the next new player will be no better off at all.</p></blockquote><p> Sure he would be...he will have sold his for 73g!  Hehe....that's how I did it. Just the fact that I sell them proves that there are plenty of people who DO care about completing those quests.</p><p>Who's to say what a new player will or will not do? That's not the point. The point is that it IS possible. And if it is possible, nobody can complain about not having money or that newbies are discouraged by this. If they are that easily discouraged....MMO's are not for them.</p>

Lord_Quaymar
02-27-2007, 04:35 PM
<cite>Jeger_Wulf wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>> Expecting money to come only from quests and selling to NPCs is very > short-sighted.  Even brand new players figure that out pretty early.</p><p>You guys don't remember what it was like to be a newb. I played for quite a while before I checked a broker. They are mostly hidden away in crafting instances, which I never visited. I played for a while longer before I started selling on one. </p><p>I'm glad prices weren't like this when I started playing. </p></blockquote><p> It was only about a year ago when I was a newbie. Know how I found the broker? I simply asked in the 1-10 channel (Maybe it was the 11-20) "Hey...where would I go to buy upgrades?" and the rest is history.</p><p>Prices weren't like this when you started...ok. But it's no different really. If the gear you needed back then only cost....say....1g instead of 10g. You would still have to get that 1g somehow right? Probably by selling the stuff you didn't need for the same 1g I would guess. Oh...you sold it to a vendor because you didn't know about the broker? Well...you can hardly blame the game for that now can you?</p>

Badaxe Ba
02-27-2007, 04:38 PM
<p>I said the NEXT new player.  Not the same one.  Each player is different, and sees different aspects of the game.  If I wanted to play a money game, I could play monopoly.  If I wanted to stand at the broker for hours on end, playing buy low/sell high, I could.  But I'm not a new player.  </p><p>There is more to this game than broker economics.  And when I was a new player, I said screw the greedy [Removed for Content] trying to take my hard earned money, I'll go find it myself.  Lets just say I have a soft spot for truly new players, and no wish to be Mister Scrooge.  After all, you can't take it with you.  The one piece of advice I'd give a new player, and make this my last post in this thread, is PLAY YOUR OWN GAME.</p>

UlteriorModem
02-27-2007, 04:44 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><cite>UlteriorModem wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I AM a new player.</p><p>I have never recieved a copper from another player as a gift.</p><p>I do have two charecters one is a provisioner the other is an adventurer / gatherer.</p><p>Through a lot of "hard work" and alot of "learning" I have managed to put a few plat in the bank, Own my apartment, and have fairly decent skills and armor / weapons.</p><p>It was not easy but it can be done.</p><p>I guess the key thing here is that it was not easy. If you want easy maybe hello kitty adventure island is more suitable.</p></blockquote> I call BS, you have way too many posts here to be a NEW player.....How much money did you have at level 15 and how long did it take you to reach that level? </blockquote><p>I had about 60 or 70 g in the bank and owned items, and skill ups.</p><p>Besides what the heck does number of posts have to do with game experience ? All that proves is I know how to type. </p>

Lord_Quaymar
02-27-2007, 04:48 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><p>I said the NEXT new player.  Not the same one.  Each player is different, and sees different aspects of the game.  If I wanted to play a money game, I could play monopoly.  <u>If I wanted to stand at the broker for hours on end, playing buy low/sell high, I could.  But I'm not a new player.</u>  </p><p>There is more to this game than broker economics.  And when I was a new player, I said screw the greedy [I cannot control my vocabulary] trying to take my hard earned money, I'll go find it myself.  Lets just say I have a soft spot for truly new players, and no wish to be Mister Scrooge.  After all, you can't take it with you.  The one piece of advice I'd give a new player, and make this my last post in this thread, is PLAY YOUR OWN GAME.</p></blockquote><p> Exactly. But, if a new player WANTS to make enough money to buy whatever he/she wants to buy, the mechanics are there to do it. If they are broke, it cannot be blamed on the game or other players.</p><p>Sure, there is more to the game than broker economics but that does not diminish the fact that it is an integral and IMPORTANT part of it whether you like it or not.</p><p>Also....standing at the broker playing buy low/sell high isn't just for new players. it would work for an old timer like yourself too if you should find yourself in need of some plat. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

Jai1
02-27-2007, 05:00 PM
<p>I'm not sure it is all about transmutting.  I do searches on Treasured and buy the 4-6 gold stuff for my T3 transmutter.  I would be willing to spend 10-12g on some 'good' treasured to adventure in but I don't find much of it.  There's a lot of high priced crap out there.  Having non-treasured attunable was supposed to fill in the holes of availibility I believe.   Problem is that people are pricing them as much as treasured because there's just not a lot out there and they can. </p><p>If this IS all about transmutting, then there was a shortsight in seeing that there will be a vacuum for stuff at T3, when combines required more burning of treasured and stuff.  I think the drop rate should be increased.  It's amazing how actually rare good items are in the game.  That's fine for the higher levels but, and I'm focusing on T3, new players encountering few and expensive items in that tier may say [Removed for Content] IT and move on.  I know WoW really hooked me on gear and that was a time when SoE was being scroogy about items.  Not that items are easier to get now, there is just more of them.</p><p>For a more selfish stance, I want to have better options.  I don't have a lot to buy for my 70s but I REALLY enjoy having good gear and taking on harder stuff for new alts.  It more exp after all.  It has to be saying something that when I was shopping for T3 weapons, the best ones I found, of value for the price, were lvl 19.  I bought them and then found out I can't put lvl 20 adornments on them.  That makes me sad because T1 ones aren't even worth 9c for something like 12 points of damage.</p><p>If anyone could tell me the harm that would cause the game/economy or whatever to flood these tiers with treasured and possible increase what is availible, I'd like to know.  I just don't see it as anything damaging but would be really beneficial.   It may even have a better draw for new players.  I'm item-centric though.</p>

Rast
02-27-2007, 05:00 PM
<p>Let's see...  I've sold cracked bones I've gotten on the way to TT for 60g, I've sold yellow spotted butterflies I've gotten while leveling for 50g (each).  </p><p>I just turned level 70 the weekend before last.  Have about 17p in the bank, two masters, full mastercrafted and a legendary shield, a SQ HOUSE (5 room at 5 Karana court) and spent 3.3 plat last night to buy 14 pieces of cedar.  I also have several rares sitting in my bank (all my harvesting except fishing is at or near cap).  Oh, all but the house, I had before I got to 70.</p><p>I had almost 25p in the bank before I bought my house (I'm a RPer and he hated living over the fish house <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />).  I support a couple crafters (My armorer and my wifes carpenter).  A month ago, I was struggling with 10p to my name and less than quality gear (except my armor, which I make myself).  I've probably made close to 30-40p in the past month alone.</p><p>I have a templar (which I rarely play) but she had 5p by the time she was 30, in full AQ armor and wasn't twinked in the slightest (and to be honest, the 2 butterflies where actually hers, but Jal is my seller toon).</p>

sayitaintso
02-27-2007, 05:36 PM
<cite>Lord_Quaymar wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><cite>UlteriorModem wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I AM a new player.</p><p>I have never recieved a copper from another player as a gift.</p><p>I do have two charecters one is a provisioner the other is an adventurer / gatherer.</p><p>Through a lot of "hard work" and alot of "learning" I have managed to put a few plat in the bank, Own my apartment, and have fairly decent skills and armor / weapons.</p><p>It was not easy but it can be done.</p><p>I guess the key thing here is that it was not easy. If you want easy maybe hello kitty adventure island is more suitable.</p></blockquote> I call BS, you have way too many posts here to be a NEW player.....How much money did you have at level 15 and how long did it take you to reach that level? </blockquote>I don't know about him but I had 10p by level 20. It isn't hard to do. </blockquote>How long did it take for you to earn 10 plat and reach level 20? Did you spend hours a day collecting and harvesting? So it took you a couple weeks to get to level 20? Or did you get to level 20 first then get your 10 plat?

sayitaintso
02-27-2007, 05:45 PM
OK I think just about all of you missed the point I was trying to make...Prior to Transmuting/diety sacrifice a new player could take a few gold and go buy serviceable armor and weapons..For a couple plat he could be a god... NOW with the emplimentation of new game mechanics....(yes these are game mechanics, disguised as content changes) new players (if there really are any) are not given the same advenatages that most of us had...level 1-20 is suppose to be about learning your class/tradeskill...That's why when the game was released you had to jump through al the hoops to chose your final class from your archtype) NOW instead of just learning to play your class and chose a tradeskill, you have to go out and find ways of earning WAY more money that was expected of those of us who have been around...Most people play MMOs to gain adventure and gain levels...Harvesting nodes to colect rares to put on a seller and wait until your items sell to collect coin to buy over prived lowbie gear is NOT the way to promote fun in the game...It's boring and tedious for most people.. I am just loking for reason why maybe we no longer see new players in the game. Last night there were 7 people on the newbie island...all of them were alts...(I asked) My wife made an illusionist and was on the Qeynos Island...13 people, all alts....not a true newbie in site...

Lord_Quaymar
02-27-2007, 06:02 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>How long did it take for you to earn 10 plat and reach level 20? Did you spend hours a day collecting and harvesting? So it took you a couple weeks to get to level 20? Or did you get to level 20 first then get your 10 plat? </blockquote><p> You know....I really don't remember how long it took me. AllI know is I was having lot's of fun which was made even more fun as I saw the plat pile up in my bank account. Not having to worry about having money to buy stuff made things just that much more fun.</p><p>Since they sell for 1-2p each, you only need 5-10 rare collection items to accumulate 10p. I got most of mine as I did quests and exp grinding. On average, I spent 2 hours or so actively harvesting and farming collection items a couple times a week. No biggie to me anyway as I was having fun doing it.</p><p>Just FYI...every MMORPG is roughly the same. Plat/gold is not going to just be handed to you....you have to put forth some effort to get it.</p>

sayitaintso
02-27-2007, 06:07 PM
<cite>Lord_Quaymar wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>How long did it take for you to earn 10 plat and reach level 20? Did you spend hours a day collecting and harvesting? So it took you a couple weeks to get to level 20? Or did you get to level 20 first then get your 10 plat? </blockquote><p> You know....I really don't remember how long it took me. AllI know is I was having lot's of fun which was made even more fun as I saw the plat pile up in my bank account. Not having to worry about having money to buy stuff made things just that much more fun.</p><p>Since they sell for 1-2p each, you only need 5-10 rare collection items to accumulate 10p. I got most of mine as I did quests and exp grinding. On average, I spent 2 hours or so actively harvesting and farming collection items a couple times a week. No biggie to me anyway as I was having fun doing it.</p><p>Just FYI...every MMORPG is roughly the same. Plat/gold is not going to just be handed to you....you have to put forth some effort to get it.</p></blockquote>Find me a rare harvested tier one item that sells for a plat...(I don't mean shinies, I mean node harvested...) Maybe when you were level 20 it did, but now tier one rares are maybe 15-18 gold? Like I said, it's not really so much about taking the time to make the coin, it's about how the game has changed and teh new player is at an unfair advantage compared to how most of us had it..And like I said, if I were coing to EQ2 for the first time and I found I needed to make that much coin just to buy a decent weapon (not saying anything about jewelry or armor) I would find another game. The economy is borked...

Anski
02-27-2007, 06:18 PM
I think what a lot of people are forgetting and a few are trying to convey here is that it is a LOT easier now to make money in the low levels than it was "back in the day". Yes, prices are high, but it's balanced by being able to make so much more. I remember the days when coin didn't drop, at all, as body loot. I remember spending 50 silver on a bed for my empty apartment and it was <i>90%</i> of the money I had on me. I remember the first time I had <i>one</i> gold on my person and I felt like the richest character alive. Now you can make <i>platinum</i> in your first levels and not even blink an eye at it. I don't really see the problem. More money to go around means people can ask for more money for their items.

Lord_Quaymar
02-27-2007, 06:20 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><cite>Lord_Quaymar wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>How long did it take for you to earn 10 plat and reach level 20? Did you spend hours a day collecting and harvesting? So it took you a couple weeks to get to level 20? Or did you get to level 20 first then get your 10 plat? </blockquote><p> You know....I really don't remember how long it took me. AllI know is I was having lot's of fun which was made even more fun as I saw the plat pile up in my bank account. Not having to worry about having money to buy stuff made things just that much more fun.</p><p>Since they sell for 1-2p each, you only need 5-10 rare collection items to accumulate 10p. I got most of mine as I did quests and exp grinding. On average, I spent 2 hours or so actively harvesting and farming collection items a couple times a week. No biggie to me anyway as I was having fun doing it.</p><p>Just FYI...every MMORPG is roughly the same. Plat/gold is not going to just be handed to you....you have to put forth some effort to get it.</p></blockquote>Find me a rare harvested tier one item that sells for a plat...(I don't mean shinies, I mean node harvested...) Maybe when you were level 20 it did, but now tier one rares are maybe 15-18 gold? Like I said, it's not really so much about taking the time to make the coin, it's about how the game has changed and teh new player is at an unfair advantage compared to how most of us had it..And like I said, if I were coing to EQ2 for the first time and I found I needed to make that much coin just to buy a decent weapon (not saying anything about jewelry or armor) I would find another game. The economy is borked... </blockquote><p>Well....I DID say rare collection items sell for 1-2p NOT rare harvests.../BONK. Rare harvests that I acquired were icing on the cake.</p><p>New players are at no more of an unfair advantage now than at any other time. It's the same difference regarding price...why is this so hard to comprehend? What cost 50s "back in the day" costs 5g AND what sold for 50s "back in the day" now SELLS for 5g...SAME DIFFERENCE! </p>

DngrMou
02-27-2007, 06:21 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><cite>Lord_Quaymar wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>How long did it take for you to earn 10 plat and reach level 20? Did you spend hours a day collecting and harvesting? So it took you a couple weeks to get to level 20? Or did you get to level 20 first then get your 10 plat? </blockquote><p> You know....I really don't remember how long it took me. AllI know is I was having lot's of fun which was made even more fun as I saw the plat pile up in my bank account. Not having to worry about having money to buy stuff made things just that much more fun.</p><p>Since they sell for 1-2p each, you only need 5-10 <span style="color: #ff0000">rare collection items </span>to accumulate 10p. I got most of mine as I did quests and exp grinding. On average, I spent 2 hours or so actively harvesting and farming <span style="color: #ff0000">collection items </span>a couple times a week. No biggie to me anyway as I was having fun doing it.</p><p>Just FYI...every MMORPG is roughly the same. Plat/gold is not going to just be handed to you....you have to put forth some effort to get it.</p></blockquote>Find me a rare harvested tier one item that sells for a plat...(I don't mean shinies, I mean node harvested...) Maybe when you were level 20 it did, but now tier one rares are maybe 15-18 gold? Like I said, it's not really so much about taking the time to make the coin, it's about how the game has changed and teh new player is at an unfair advantage compared to how most of us had it..And like I said, if I were coing to EQ2 for the first time and I found I needed to make that much coin just to buy a decent weapon (not saying anything about jewelry or armor) I would find another game. The economy is borked... </blockquote><p>He's talking about shiny's...not T1 rares......</p><p>Money is very easy to make...and a new player is not going to know that something priced for ten gold today was priced at 1 gold 12 months ago....neither will they know that the items they're selling on the broker now for ten gold used to sell for 1 gold....it's relative.  It's no more difficult now, no more time consuming, to make money than it ever was.  If anything, it's much easier.</p><p>Oh, and since when were you appointed official Spokesman For Teh Newbs?  Why can't they come in here and speak for themselves?  </p>

Rast
02-27-2007, 06:24 PM
In some ways, unless you are harvesting shinies, alot more comes down to luck of the drop now than it use to.  You used to be able to equip up even when you didn't get as many drops because the costs were lower and the quest yeilds were usually sufficient to support you.  Unlike now, where if you get unlucky and do not not get drops for a session or two (or are grouped and lose the rolls) it is more difficult and you need to look outside the 'original' gameplay system to get your money (ie, shinies, rare harvests, etc)

Brigh
02-27-2007, 06:25 PM
<p>New players probably don't even think about the broker since most people jump right into things without reading manuals, forums, guides, etc.</p><p>New players also wouldn't think to put stuff on a broker for sale at the OP commented prices unless they were taught about the market and the fact a broker exists.</p>

Farzmek
02-27-2007, 06:33 PM
/ignore Broker

DngrMou
02-27-2007, 06:34 PM
[email protected] DLere wrote: <blockquote>In some ways, unless you are harvesting shinies, alot more comes down to luck of the drop now than it use to.  You used to be able to equip up even when you didn't get as many drops because the costs were lower and the quest yeilds were usually sufficient to support you.  Unlike now, where if you get unlucky and do not not get drops for a session or two (or are grouped and lose the rolls) it is more difficult and you need to look outside the 'original' gameplay system to get your money (ie, shinies, rare harvests, etc)</blockquote><p>Shiny's and rare harvests are not new.  They're being on the broker is not new.  They're being expensive is not new.  Players farming for them is not new.  </p><p>Making money, and gearing up is no more harder today than it ever was, (it's actually easier).  I'm willing to prove it, if any of you whiners are up to a challenge?</p>

Slapfish
02-27-2007, 06:48 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>HUH? it took me 2 hours to reach level 15...so you are saying a new player has to spend "a few hours" harvesting just to have enough coin to outfit themselves decently before continuing to level? Sure, any new player is going to want to do that.....those of us who started playing when the game was new didn't have to do that....OH WAIT we are back to how changing WORKING game mechanics has borked EQ2...no new players is a death sentence for any game..... </blockquote> If it only took you two hours to get to level 15, then what the heck do you need better gear for?

Rast
02-27-2007, 06:50 PM
<p>You miss my point DangerMouse <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I'm saying that it has shifted from being something you 'wanted' to do to get a little more, to something you almost have to do to keep up.  I agree, it isn't new, but the part it is playing is getting bigger and bigger as time goes along.</p><p>Like I said, you could gear up before without doing this, the costs and quest rewards were pretty much in line that you could afford handcrafted (which was good at that point) without alot of 'side' activities.  Now, you nearly need those side activities to gear up.  Especially if you group alot at the lower levels (since you won't get as many drops when you do).</p><p>Is one way easier than another, no, not really.  Nothing about EQ2 is really hard, but it is different and outside (IMO) what was originally intended (I seriously doubt the original intent of the collectables was to finance gearing up)</p>

Jai1
02-27-2007, 06:55 PM
<p>I think telling people to make money is a hack for the current economy and availibility.  There are times that I make 10p in a day and I STILL won't spend my money on some of the stuff that is availible for the prices.   When was the last time you guys went shopping for T3 jewelry?   The game needs more stuff and more of the stuff to drop.  I imagine what is basically happening is that players are consuming the gear faster than it is created in the game.  Add transmutting to that and how is making more money going to fix anything.  LQ I imagine you can say that plat doesn't neccessarily get you anything.  It has more to do with luck.  The luck of finding the right item at the right price at the right time.</p><p>OK, how is that mechanic good for new players.  They may or may not know about risk vs reward or the relative scarcity of quality items in the game.  Working the broker takes time to learn to be effective.  Maybe it's not all that much but let's bring the word 'effort' into it.  How many TRUE new players are willing to put up the effort in the early stages?  Sure, at 70 we will do things like Claymore but if I'm starting a new game I'd like a little to fall into my lap.  I would like the experience to settle well with me and bring fun and not be some kind of grind fest to make cash so I can afford a 'nice' outfit.  To the point, they should be able to gear themselves well and with relative ease.</p><p>How would it hurt the game to increase and expand the drops in the lower tiers?  I'm thinking it's hurting the game right now to have the market out of whack but only Sony knows how many people quit in a short amout on time.  If the retention is good then there needs to be no changes.  I do know I invited a 100ish people off the island into the guild about a year ago.  They may have rolled new toons or rolled on to a new game but out of those only 5 are left in the guild.  I was looking last night and a slew of them quit in their late teens/early 20s.  This was a year ago.  What turns people off from the game?  I don't actually know that but let's think about what can be done to make the game more attractive.  I'd like if the game dished out class specific stuff for adventures. They don't have to know how it's coded to get a warm fuzzy from a usable drop vs scouring the lands for cracked barb bones so they can afford that 6g attunable item.</p>

Gungo
02-27-2007, 07:02 PM
<p>You know what is really funny about this thread you have older people who twink thier toons complaining that New people will have a hard time in this game. </p><p>BUT You have several actual new players telling the OP "no, i am doing fine". Why don't you listen to their advice because Obviously the OP is wrong. Instead of telling them what you think they don't know. Because there is not one new player who asked for help that said he has a hard time finding items/coin in this game. Puting it simply you are wrong.</p>

Sebastien
02-27-2007, 07:07 PM
<cite>rakki wrote:</cite><blockquote>Uhh your wrong as usual.. He isn't finding anything because of transmuters.. I also call BS to the person saying they have 7 plat and a good fast horse..They never mentioned their level but made it known she/he wasn't 70..You'd have to be super lucky and loot some rare master which would sell really well to make these claims and chances are high that smart people aren't even buying sub 55 masters cause adept 3 do the trick and are less than a plat with your own rares. I never made a plat on my first character till lvl 50. My next character never had 7p and a good horse till well after level 70.. I also call BS on selling low level shinies for a plat.. I can't sell high level shines for 1-5 gold let alone a plat.. </blockquote><p> This just isn't true anymore.  I think some people are completely out of touch with the current state of the lowbie/midbie economy right now.</p><p>Thanks to transmuters, virtually any piece of attunable (treasured+) loot sells for at least 3g on my server, and I know the rule-of-thumb of 2-5g holds on other servers as well.  Meaning: even the lousiest, stupidest piece of level 2 gear that you loot as lowbie, so long as it is attunable and treasured+, nets you a few gold on the broker.</p><p>I made an alt over the weekend, played him for ONE NIGHT, and that resulted in 68g.  That was one night, below level 10, not farming, just playing.</p><p>So when you imply that 7 plat is somehow a big deal, frankly that is totally untrue.  When people complain about not being able to afford things because of transmuters, they are completely missing the boat.  Instead of competing with transmuters, you sell to them.  Buy mastercrafted gear, buy app iv's or have adept iii's made, and profit greatly.  You don't need to have all these prestigious items when you are 20 or 30 anyway.  So sell to transmuters, buy from tradeskillers, and you have no trouble making several plat without ever trying to farm.</p><p>It's very simple and also quite obvious.. but for some reason people seem to be in denial over this, or else they just aren't familiar with the broker.  That's not meant to insult rakki but rather to express my confusion over how people can not notice these facts.</p>

Jai1
02-27-2007, 07:11 PM
<p>G, I stated that I don't actually know what a new player thinks.  I stated that I thought gear in an item centric game was important.  I believe T1-3 to be lackluster in itemization and availibility and if player retention isn't a problem. Then there isn't a problem.  Maybe people aren't like me and don't care about gear.  There's a myriad of ways to enjoy games and everyone is a little different.  I don't think you can tell me that I'm wrong for me.  I want better gear to be availible in those tiers and new players not knowing any different doesn't make a case.  </p>

sayitaintso
02-28-2007, 01:07 AM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><p>G, I stated that I don't actually know what a new player thinks.  I stated that I thought gear in an item centric game was important.  I believe T1-3 to be lackluster in itemization and availibility and if player retention isn't a problem. Then there isn't a problem.  Maybe people aren't like me and don't care about gear.  There's a myriad of ways to enjoy games and everyone is a little different.  I don't think you can tell me that I'm wrong for me.  I want better gear to be availible in those tiers and new players not knowing any different doesn't make a case.  </p></blockquote> The majority of new players want to jump in with both feet and go hog wild adventuring and gaining levels...That's not to say their play style and yours are going to be the same, but when the prices for tier 1-3 gear are focused toward high level transmuters and not new players there is something wrong...Seriously wrong...the arguement that they can sell their loot and make money is flawed...They shouldn't have to do any such thing to be able to upgrade their gear to basic utilitarian stuff...I just upgraded the armor and weapons of this toon that I made...I sent him 5 plat from one of my high levels...he bought weapons and armor, NO jewelry...Nothing special, master crafted and treasured....it cost him 2.5 plat...Rediculous...just rediculous...

Lord_Quaymar
02-28-2007, 04:33 AM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><p>G, I stated that I don't actually know what a new player thinks.  I stated that I thought gear in an item centric game was important.  I believe T1-3 to be lackluster in itemization and availibility and if player retention isn't a problem. Then there isn't a problem.  Maybe people aren't like me and don't care about gear.  There's a myriad of ways to enjoy games and everyone is a little different.  I don't think you can tell me that I'm wrong for me.  I want better gear to be availible in those tiers and new players not knowing any different doesn't make a case.  </p></blockquote> The majority of new players want to jump in with both feet and go hog wild adventuring and gaining levels...That's not to say their play style and yours are going to be the same, but when the prices for tier 1-3 gear are focused toward high level transmuters and not new players there is something wrong...Seriously wrong...<span style="color: #ffff33">the arguement that they can sell their loot and make money is flawed...They shouldn't have to do any such thing to be able to upgrade their gear to basic utilitarian stuff..</span>.I just upgraded the armor and weapons of this toon that I made...I sent him 5 plat from one of my high levels...he bought weapons and armor, NO jewelry...Nothing special, master crafted and treasured....it cost him 2.5 plat...Rediculous...just rediculous... </blockquote><p>You cannot say that new people can't sell their loot nor can you claim that such an arguement is flawed. Fact cannot be flawed because...well...it is fact. You mean that newbies shouldn't have to sell anything to upgrade? Nothing? Well...guess what? They DON'T.</p><p>You do realize that they can sell everything to the vendor and buy "the basic utilitarian stuff" from an NPC as well. Or have you forgotten about that? Next you are going to tell me that those items aren't the basic stuff....rare crafted is right? Wrong. </p><p>You spent 2.5p to twink a toon with Mastercrafted stuff but you didn't HAVE to do that...you COULD have harvested all the rares yourself and had the items made for about 10% of that cost. But you made the CHOICE not to. You cannot blame the game nor the economy for that....it was your own choices that brought that about...nothing else.</p>

Chirpaa
02-28-2007, 04:48 AM
<p>I was a new player just a few months ago and at that time, the lower level things were priced even higher.  Transmuter impact on markets has come down some.</p><p> I had NO problems with money.  The inflated market actually helped me as a newer player, because I could sell all of the things I was getting as loot for massive amounts of gold.</p><p>Anyone who says "new players wouldn't think of using the broker" is a fool.  Anyone with a brain knows enough to know to check where your good get the best prices, and in EQ2 that means comparing broker to what an npc gives.  It doesn't take long to figure out broker is the smart place to sell.</p><p>EVERY new player gets a free house and a free market board for it.  Any new player that doesn't figure out what the broker is after getting the broker board can't use being "new" as an excuse, they are just stupid.</p><p>I made a small fortune as a new player back in December just selling all the Adept I books I got on the newbie island.   Enough such that I still have a bank full of the rare's I harvested at the time but didn't need, because I had enough money without selling these, and I figure I could use them down the line to make nice twink gear for an alts.</p><p>OP is wrong, the inflated economy helps newer players more than it harms them.  The people it hurts are those too dense to actually figure out some real basics of economics and too unwilling to think even just a little bit about what the broker is, despite the fact the game holds you by the hand and hands the info to you on a silver platter...if you play with your eyes open that is.</p><p>I am not saying anyone in this thread is stupid, btw... but I AM saying that any new player that has the problems some have implied new players will have IS.  Sorry, but if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...</p><p> And to the person that implied that newbies should be able to BUY from the broker to gear up without first SELLING things on the broker..   what??!   That's just ridiculous.  If you want to partake in the economy of the player base (the broker) then the only way to have the level of income required  to buy there is to also sell there.   Players that choose to not sell on the broker are also making the choice to have a hard time buying there.  It's their own choice, and it is not the fault of the game that you can't move the cart without first putting the horse in front of it.  IMHO, it would be pretty lame if you could make enough to buy from other players without also having to do some selling to them.  That'd be like getting to have your cake and eat it too.</p><p>I'm all out of cliched statements for now, so that's all I have to say. >.></p>

DngrMou
02-28-2007, 11:35 AM
<cite>TheresaN wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I was a new player just a few months ago and at that time, the lower level things were priced even higher.  Transmuter impact on markets has come down some.</p><p> I had NO problems with money.  The inflated market actually helped me as a newer player, because I could sell all of the things I was getting as loot for massive amounts of gold.</p><p>Anyone who says "new players wouldn't think of using the broker" is a fool.  Anyone with a brain knows enough to know to check where your good get the best prices, and in EQ2 that means comparing broker to what an npc gives.  It doesn't take long to figure out broker is the smart place to sell.</p><p>EVERY new player gets a free house and a free market board for it.  Any new player that doesn't figure out what the broker is after getting the broker board can't use being "new" as an excuse, they are just stupid.</p><p>I made a small fortune as a new player back in December just selling all the Adept I books I got on the newbie island.   Enough such that I still have a bank full of the rare's I harvested at the time but didn't need, because I had enough money without selling these, and I figure I could use them down the line to make nice twink gear for an alts.</p><p>OP is wrong, the inflated economy helps newer players more than it harms them.  The people it hurts are those too dense to actually figure out some real basics of economics and too unwilling to think even just a little bit about what the broker is, despite the fact the game holds you by the hand and hands the info to you on a silver platter...if you play with your eyes open that is.</p><p>I am not saying anyone in this thread is stupid, btw... but I AM saying that any new player that has the problems some have implied new players will have IS.  Sorry, but if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...</p><p> And to the person that implied that newbies should be able to BUY from the broker to gear up without first SELLING things on the broker..   what??!   That's just ridiculous.  If you want to partake in the economy of the player base (the broker) then the only way to have the level of income required  to buy there is to also sell there.   Players that choose to not sell on the broker are also making the choice to have a hard time buying there.  It's their own choice, and it is not the fault of the game that you can't move the cart without first putting the horse in front of it.  IMHO, it would be pretty lame if you could make enough to buy from other players without also having to do some selling to them.  That'd be like getting to have your cake and eat it too.</p><p>I'm all out of cliched statements for now, so that's all I have to say. >.></p></blockquote>QFE.  And yours should be the last, and final word in this tired, and well worn thread.  But it won't be.....the people who claim to speak for the noobs will continue to do so.

Veet
02-28-2007, 01:28 PM
A newbie that doesn't know enough to read the forums or ask around <i>is</i> going to have a hard time. But, the first time a newbie hears the word "Broker", they should then know this (and it should be fairly obvious): check the price on every item in your bag before selling it to the vendor. If you know enough to BUY from the broker then you should know enough to SELL at the broker. The first time you see some crappy little item selling for 2-5G, it should be clear to you that you can sell similarly crappy items for the same amount of money. Blaming the transmuters is silly. If T1 items are selling for 2-5G, then put your T1 items that you can't use up on the broker and make 2-5G for each one. I started a new, untwinked toon when EOF came out and he had 2P in cash by level 20. That's 2P ready cash, sitting around, after buying gear, by level 20. How did I do such trickery? I sold very single treasured item I found that I couldn't use for 2-5 gold. Usually 5g. Even level 2 adepts will sell for 4g.

Xagoth
02-28-2007, 02:02 PM
<p>Sorry, but the OP is just trolling or is complaing based purely on ignorance or laziness (not really doing much to disprove his mindset in his experiment).</p><p>It is beyond easy for a newbie to not only make money but figure out the best way to do it.</p><p>My Girlfriend and I were recently having a good laugh over the fact when we first started (release) we thought ONE gold was just a ton of money.</p><p>I recently made a ranger and in my 9 levels on newbie isle, I killed quite a few of the named. There is a tree called Grimroot and a troll named the Puppetmaster. They both drop a chest EVERY time with a treasured item and have a fairly fast respawn. Infact, I would say about 1 in 20 mobs on newbie isle drop some sort of treasured item. Now on my server (Oasis), treasured items start at about 2 gold. Doesnt take a mathmetician to figure out if you spend about 2 hours on newbie island and save all the treasured crap you get, you should EASILY come away with 20 gold worth of items to sell on the broker.</p><p>And as someone has said. Once you start doing collections, you realize that there are some rare ones that sell for ridiculous ammounts (there are collections, I will NEVER finish, because I would rather have the gold than the little bit of exp. Examples are - ANY of the EoF collections as each one has a rare that on our server sells for a minimum of 1.2 plat, Erudin Coin collection (a level 15 collection that each coin sells for atleast 15 gold on our server), bone collections (weathered and cracked all sell for insane ammounts on Oasis). </p><p>It is easier than EVER for a newbie to make money just using COMMON SENSE. An above average intellligence person who just starts EQ2, can with a little work, be in complete mastercrafted gear and a few Masters by the time they are in their 30's.</p><p>I think too many people are comparing what the economy was like when EQ2 first came out. Its not fair. Online economies even more than in real life, shift constantly. Hey, I was against transmuting when it first came out, thinking it was going to destroy the economy. But you know what...it just made it easier for lower levels to make some decend gold is all it did. Maybe you have to suffer through not having the "best" equipment or spells in the first 20 levels, but the money you make off the broker will make it much easier on you once you get in to your 30's, when the transmuting affected economy begins to slow. CERTAINLY more easier than most of us who have been playing since the beginning had it!</p>

DizzyGee
02-28-2007, 02:44 PM
I don't really consider myself a "noob," but I would say that I am a relatively new player (and very much so to the world of MMOs - this being my first): I started in mid-October, i.e., shortly before transmuting and tinkering were introduced. My experience has been quite the opposite to that of the OP. Before transmuting was introduced I found it RELATIVELY EASY to find the broker (I asked on the chat channels) and thus to earn money - mostly off of common harvestables; I saved the rares, because I thought - and still think - that I will use them some day for my own purposes (I like to craft). I certainly was able to make enough - even in the first ten levels - to do what I wanted to do (=upgrade my spells and get some better equipment). Now, after transmuting was introduced, it has become EVEN EASIER to earn EVEN MORE money than before. Especially during the boom that occurred for about three weeks after it was implemented (which has, to a large extent, receded in the meanwhile), I earned enough from selling adepts that I was able to buy a horse (not the fastest, but a horse nonetheless) and move to a three-room, four-slot house in SQ - and that at around lvl30. In fact, the only reasons I can find for being poor in this game are either because of mere laziness or because you twink out too many alts - I keep my alts on a tight budget (they only get adept3s/mastercrafted, no masters/legendary - and they still kick hiney). <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

liveja
02-28-2007, 03:29 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>I just upgraded the armor and weapons of this toon that I made...I sent him 5 plat from one of my high levels...he bought weapons and armor, NO jewelry...Nothing special, master crafted and treasured....it cost him 2.5 plat...Rediculous...just rediculous... </blockquote><p>Um .... just so you know, I consider mastercrafted gear to be "special".</p><p>My 26th level SK has done just fine with only crafted gear. Buying that crafted gear has never cost me anywhere near 2.5 plat; in fact, the other day, I upgraded 5-6 slots for less than 40 gold.</p><p>I think you need to re-think your upgrade strategies.</p>

DngrMou
02-28-2007, 03:42 PM
<cite>DizzyGee wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't really consider myself a "noob," but I would say that I am a relatively new player (and very much so to the world of MMOs - this being my first): I started in mid-October, i.e., shortly before transmuting and tinkering were introduced. My experience has been quite the opposite to that of the OP. Before transmuting was introduced I found it RELATIVELY EASY to find the broker (I asked on the chat channels) and thus to earn money - mostly off of common harvestables; I saved the rares, because I thought - and still think - that I will use them some day for my own purposes (I like to craft). I certainly was able to make enough - even in the first ten levels - to do what I wanted to do (=upgrade my spells and get some better equipment). Now, after transmuting was introduced, it has become EVEN EASIER to earn EVEN MORE money than before. Especially during the boom that occurred for about three weeks after it was implemented (which has, to a large extent, receded in the meanwhile), I earned enough from selling adepts that I was able to buy a horse (not the fastest, but a horse nonetheless) and move to a three-room, four-slot house in SQ - and that at around lvl30. In fact, the only reasons I can find for being poor in this game are either because of mere laziness or because you twink out too many alts - I keep my alts on a tight budget (they only get adept3s/mastercrafted, no masters/legendary - and they still kick hiney). <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote>This is another nail in the coffin, the economy works....for vet's, as well as noobs.  But I don't expect it do much...this particular topic is like bad sea food....it's gonna come back up.

Cyllus
02-28-2007, 04:48 PM
<p> I've noticed the same problem on Permafrost... level 20 gear selling for 20gp up to a few Pp. <img src="/smilies/47941865eb7bbc2a777305b46cc059a2.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> But, and this is a big but... I consider myself to be part of the problem.</p><p>  I don't Craft... I Tinker (no I'm not a Tinkerer, I mean I don't craft 'seriously'<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. I have several crafters and not one of them is over level 35. It's been a process of finding what I like, what my guild needs the most, and what I can sell. I've decided on Weaponscrafting... for now <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Part of the problelm for me is Rares. Leveling through the 20 as a WC, I've been gathering in TS and in that time I've found 0 Steel... not one cluster, found a couple of Mallable (sp?) loam,no steel... Lowest priced Steel Cluster on Permafrost 2 days ago was 54gp. I will not now or ever pay 50+gp for any level 22 gear or crafting component.</p><p>  Inflation is idiotic... pricing some of my stuff,I've found that most Imbued weapons at level 20 are going for around 15-25gp. This if for your basic Carbonite stuff, not Steel. But even the stuff that I'm selling (1gp for non imbued Carboninte, and 2-4 for Imbued Carb.) is not moving.(or wasn't, haven't logged in today so I could be wrong).</p><p>  Do I have the solution? Nope... I'm just going to keep making fairly priced weapons and hope someone notices <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> .</p>

Illmarr
02-28-2007, 06:01 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><cite>UlteriorModem wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I AM a new player.</p><p>I have never recieved a copper from another player as a gift.</p><p>I do have two charecters one is a provisioner the other is an adventurer / gatherer.</p><p>Through a lot of "hard work" and alot of "learning" I have managed to put a few plat in the bank, Own my apartment, and have fairly decent skills and armor / weapons.</p><p>It was not easy but it can be done.</p><p>I guess the key thing here is that it was not easy. If you want easy maybe hello kitty adventure island is more suitable.</p></blockquote> I call BS, you have way too many posts here to be a NEW player.....How much money did you have at level 15 and how long did it take you to reach that level? </blockquote>That little graphic sig that UlteriorModem uses? Type that name into EQ2 players. Aquilla on Oasis was created Dec 27 2006. only other character on account was created in Jan of 2007. Learn to use the tools available before making yourself look like a fool

sayitaintso
02-28-2007, 06:28 PM
<cite>Lord_Quaymar wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><p>G, I stated that I don't actually know what a new player thinks.  I stated that I thought gear in an item centric game was important.  I believe T1-3 to be lackluster in itemization and availibility and if player retention isn't a problem. Then there isn't a problem.  Maybe people aren't like me and don't care about gear.  There's a myriad of ways to enjoy games and everyone is a little different.  I don't think you can tell me that I'm wrong for me.  I want better gear to be availible in those tiers and new players not knowing any different doesn't make a case.  </p></blockquote> The majority of new players want to jump in with both feet and go hog wild adventuring and gaining levels...That's not to say their play style and yours are going to be the same, but when the prices for tier 1-3 gear are focused toward high level transmuters and not new players there is something wrong...Seriously wrong...<span style="color: #ffff33">the arguement that they can sell their loot and make money is flawed...They shouldn't have to do any such thing to be able to upgrade their gear to basic utilitarian stuff..</span>.I just upgraded the armor and weapons of this toon that I made...I sent him 5 plat from one of my high levels...he bought weapons and armor, NO jewelry...Nothing special, master crafted and treasured....it cost him 2.5 plat...Rediculous...just rediculous... </blockquote><p>You cannot say that new people can't sell their loot nor can you claim that such an arguement is flawed. Fact cannot be flawed because...well...it is fact. You mean that newbies shouldn't have to sell anything to upgrade? Nothing? Well...guess what? They DON'T.</p><p>You do realize that they can sell everything to the vendor and buy "the basic utilitarian stuff" from an NPC as well. Or have you forgotten about that? Next you are going to tell me that those items aren't the basic stuff....rare crafted is right? Wrong. </p><p>You spent 2.5p to twink a toon with Mastercrafted stuff but you didn't HAVE to do that...you COULD have harvested all the rares yourself and had the items made for about 10% of that cost. But you made the CHOICE not to. You cannot blame the game nor the economy for that....it was your own choices that brought that about...nothing else.</p></blockquote>Fine, I am wrong, you are right...The game isn't in trouble, and it's making plenty of money for SOE because there are so many new players coming to play...(Which was my point to begin with)...Wait...What's the latest rumor??? That subscription fees are going up in April to offset teh loss of player subsciptions and loss of profit??? HMMMM....interesting....But just a rumour mind you....

Slapfish
02-28-2007, 08:29 PM
<blockquote><blockquote>Fine, I am wrong, you are right...The game isn't in trouble, and it's making plenty of money for SOE because there are so many new players coming to play...(Which was my point to begin with)...Wait...What's the latest rumor??? That subscription fees are going up in April to offset teh loss of player subsciptions and loss of profit??? HMMMM....interesting....But just a rumour mind you.... </blockquote></blockquote><p> Although you may be correct that subscriptions are decreasing (not proven, IMO, with only mention of a rumor that fees are to rise to cover costs of lost subscriptions, this can hardly be considered fact or proof) you still have not proven a connection between the cost of low level gear and loss of subscriptions.  If subscriptions are declining, there are a number of reasons why that might be, only one of which might be, the cost of low level gear. </p><p>Not to mention that you have completely switched arguments as the stability and health of the game was never mentioned in the original post. </p>

Spyderbite
02-28-2007, 08:45 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>Fine, I am wrong, you are right...The game isn't in trouble, and it's making plenty of money for SOE because there are so many new players coming to play...(Which was my point to begin with)...Wait...What's the latest rumor??? That subscription fees are going up in April to offset teh loss of player subsciptions and loss of profit??? HMMMM....interesting....But just a rumour mind you.... </blockquote> I'm a Sony stock holder and I didn't read anything about the loss of subscriptions being the cause of a subscription price increase in the last quarterly perspectice I received. If that were the reasoning, it would have been mandatory for Sony to disclose it us stock holders. So, what you're gunning at is pure speculation. Subscription rates for online games, magazines, Elk Club dues, etc. can go up for any reason at all. Could be cost of living increase in the area where employees work and live, higher taxes, loss of revenue in another department, or they're just compensating for the new vending machines they put in all the call center break rooms. When a price increase in a service goes up its usually for a more than just one reason.. its usually many, many, many reasons/justifications. To make a knee-jerk move like raise costs for a single purpose, is shooting the service in the foot as well as the stock price. My bet is that they put Starbuck's in the Developer's lounge.. XD

harleypilot
03-01-2007, 12:10 AM
I don't know who is righ or wrong here, not even sure if there is a right and wrong in this case, but I can relay my side from my experiences for discussion sake.  I started this game almost 2 years ago and it was the first attempt at a game (online or otherwise) and is the only one that my old butt plays.  It took me almost 45 levels to make my first plat and I pretty much struggled to keep my toon in something other than rags.  This may be due in part to the fact that that toon is a wizard and I didn't really worry much about armor, weps or game mechanics, just had fun and wanted to reach the next level.  I'll be honest, I didn't even know how to "talk" in a channel.  Sure, I could see the conversations, but had to rather embarassingly ask in guild one night how it was done.  Bottom line is the basics came slow and so did the money.  When I started trying, it was as a crafter, but who wants App 4 spells?  Ok, so go harvest rares right?  Heh, I have harvested 78 rares in almost 2 years and believe me I have spent many hours looking.  So that was not the answer either.  Shinies?  I wanted them for me and my alts...I didn't start making any coin off them until KoS came out.  I don't spend enough time reading about games to know more than what I generally experience, but it seems as though EoF was released to attract a new base of players.  That appears to have happened, but there were some unforseen drawbacks to this in order to appease the older crowd with new content.  Transmuting is a fun (albeit expensive) and useful addition, but I feel it has killed (well, seriously impacted) the market for Adepts, Masters, certain crafters wares and exponentially raised the price of 1 copper harvests to pretty ridiculous levels.  Is that a factor in market trends and to be expected?  Yes.  Is it frustrating to deal with as a new player?  I can well imagine.  Times have changed drastically since I started playing and adjustments were necessary (as they are in RL), but I can feel for the new players as they must think we are crazy.  Maybe we are?  Anyway, I have noticed a drop in population on my server (Bazaar) but of course this could be seasonal.  I have also seen a drop in items available on the exchange.  All you really see now are (yep you guessed it) transmuted or tinkered items.  Pickings are slim.  None of this affects my game play and I certainly am not complaining, just a few observations.  One other thing that I have noticed that could possibly be affecting the market, to an extent, so I will pose it to you great folks out there.  Who are these folks I see hanging out in the TS brokers for hours on end with AFK tags?  They are there all day.  I have heard complaints about TS bots.  Are these a broker version?  It's always the same toons, every day.  And they are selling transmute items, adornments, etc.  Doesn't really bother me, but it seems that if they are "automatically" buying up all items that are necessary for transmuting (especially right after EoF release) that it might force prices to go up.  Heck, they could be hard core re-sellers for all I know, but I thought I would just throw that in the mix for the heck of it.  Good hunting to you all.  Oh, and my apologies in advance for this being so long.  Sorry...<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 

Talz
03-01-2007, 01:42 AM
What exactly qualifies people who don't know enough about simple economics to make money in a video game to lecture others about the topic in question?

sayitaintso
03-01-2007, 02:05 AM
Sure, you are right and there is nothing wrong...they are probably increasing the subscriptions so the devs can all go buy new cars or something...It has absolutley nothing to do with the increase in subscription cancelations... And "Mr Sony Stock Holder"...Unless you own a amazing amount of Sony stock, i  seriously doubt they are going to give you time of day, let alone the health of this game or any other product Sony makes...You and I both know that stock holders rarely if ever get insider inforamtion like that...and if they did, telling outsiders about it would be illegal...But nice try... Why don't you all go try to find new virgin players on your server...then report back how many you have located..it certainly isn't going to be enough to come close to offsetting the number of people who are leaving.  O.T. here's another thought..Maybe they are increasing YOUR station pass fees to offset the the losses they are suffering because of Vanguard...it's ashame because that game has promise...BUT Sigil used a game engine designed to run on a generation of video cards that haven't been released yet...and will cost upwards of $800?? How does it feel to know that you may be subsidizing Vanguard even though most of you aren't playing it?

Chirpaa
03-01-2007, 05:29 AM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>Sure, you are right and there is nothing wrong...they are probably increasing the subscriptions so the devs can all go buy new cars or something...It has absolutley nothing to do with the increase in subscription cancelations... And "Mr Sony Stock Holder"...Unless you own a amazing amount of Sony stock, i  seriously doubt they are going to give you time of day, let alone the health of this game or any other product Sony makes...You and I both know that stock holders rarely if ever get insider inforamtion like that...and if they did, telling outsiders about it would be illegal...But nice try... Why don't you all go try to find new virgin players on your server...then report back how many you have located..it certainly isn't going to be enough to come close to offsetting the number of people who are leaving.  O.T. here's another thought..Maybe they are increasing YOUR station pass fees to offset the the losses they are suffering because of Vanguard...it's ashame because that game has promise...BUT Sigil used a game engine designed to run on a generation of video cards that haven't been released yet...and will cost upwards of $800?? How does it feel to know that you may be subsidizing Vanguard even though most of you aren't playing it? </blockquote><p>Clearly you are a player with a chip on your shoulder regarding something, and it isn't in relation to your original post that began this thread.  Enough REAL new players posted with their story, including myself, to inform you that the economics for a new player are quite the opposite.  </p><p>In terms of economy, things work very well for new players because they can make quite a bit of money selling things.  I had made 15 plat by the time I was in my mid-teen levels..and the simple fact is, that up to that point a new player doesn't NEED to buy anything.. the levels go so fast the gear is pretty much "disposable".  So, that plat was all profit.  </p><p>The economics of the low level game is NOT an issue, sell stuff to buy stuff.. works .. the nice thing about inflation in a game is that income is determined by the same exact pricing that you have to buy from.   Therefore, any and all inflation sees an equal increase in income.  This is quite different from how the real world works.. where you need to get a raise from your boss to keep pace with cost of living increases.  In EQ2, if the stuff you want to BUY costs more, then you also make more from SELLING it.  And, with everything level and tier based, you will never need to buy things beyond the level at which you could also go get them....so inflation is irrelevant.</p><p>With your original points disqualified by actual, truly new players. you have strayed entirely from the subject which you yourself created.   So, I must ask you, what is your real beef?  Somewhere in there is the root of a truth that you really have issues with, but it's been clouded by your misperceptions regarding the economy.  What is the real issue?</p>

sayitaintso
03-01-2007, 02:53 PM
<cite>TheresaN wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>Sure, you are right and there is nothing wrong...they are probably increasing the subscriptions so the devs can all go buy new cars or something...It has absolutley nothing to do with the increase in subscription cancelations... And "Mr Sony Stock Holder"...Unless you own a amazing amount of Sony stock, i  seriously doubt they are going to give you time of day, let alone the health of this game or any other product Sony makes...You and I both know that stock holders rarely if ever get insider inforamtion like that...and if they did, telling outsiders about it would be illegal...But nice try... Why don't you all go try to find new virgin players on your server...then report back how many you have located..it certainly isn't going to be enough to come close to offsetting the number of people who are leaving.  O.T. here's another thought..Maybe they are increasing YOUR station pass fees to offset the the losses they are suffering because of Vanguard...it's ashame because that game has promise...BUT Sigil used a game engine designed to run on a generation of video cards that haven't been released yet...and will cost upwards of $800?? How does it feel to know that you may be subsidizing Vanguard even though most of you aren't playing it? </blockquote><p>Clearly you are a player with a chip on your shoulder regarding something, and it isn't in relation to your original post that began this thread.  Enough REAL new players posted with their story, including myself, to inform you that the economics for a new player are quite the opposite.  </p><p>In terms of economy, things work very well for new players because they can make quite a bit of money selling things.  I had made 15 plat by the time I was in my mid-teen levels..and the simple fact is, that up to that point a new player doesn't NEED to buy anything.. the levels go so fast the gear is pretty much "disposable".  So, that plat was all profit.  </p><p>The economics of the low level game is NOT an issue, sell stuff to buy stuff.. works .. the nice thing about inflation in a game is that income is determined by the same exact pricing that you have to buy from.   Therefore, any and all inflation sees an equal increase in income.  This is quite different from how the real world works.. where you need to get a raise from your boss to keep pace with cost of living increases.  In EQ2, if the stuff you want to BUY costs more, then you also make more from SELLING it.  And, with everything level and tier based, you will never need to buy things beyond the level at which you could also go get them....so inflation is irrelevant.</p><p>With your original points disqualified by actual, truly new players. you have strayed entirely from the subject which you yourself created.   So, I must ask you, what is your real beef?  Somewhere in there is the root of a truth that you really have issues with, but it's been clouded by your misperceptions regarding the economy.  What is the real issue?</p></blockquote>That SOE continues to change game mechanics (not content) that make the game unpalitable to a lot of people...they leave, no one replaces them...the population goes to SHE IT and the players that remain suffer...No MARKETING, NO ADVERTISING, un neccesary changes to basic mechanics of the game that are working JSUT FINE, artifical manipulation of the economy in order to force people into time sink activities such as node harveting just to make money to afford items that once were purchasable with monies earned by adventuring...Those are my beefs... Look around you in game....(Not here) how many people do you see who want to spend their game play time harvesting nodes just to make coin? Relatively few....So why should anyone who is NEW be almost forced to do so just so they can outfit themselves? All in the name of timesink...And it's working SO well isn't it...PLENTY of new players and subsciptions aren't there......NOT

dartie
03-01-2007, 03:04 PM
<p>Sort of a simple-minded question here, but why are so many of the old players obsessed with the idea that new players aren't flocking to EQ2?</p><p>I don't think I count as new anymore (since I joined in November of '06), but my wife is new, since we just opened her account in February.  </p><p>The two of us play and have a grand old time except for when we run into crowds (such as a line for the Rotweed quest that we were determined to check off our list).  If new people join the EQ2 community, I guess that's fine with us, but there are already plenty of people on the servers to answer our questions and group/buy/sell/trade with.  </p><p>It hasn't occurred to either one of us to say, "Gee, if SOE would advertise this game more, then more people would be standing in line for Rotweed!"  So I'm just wondering what makes it so important for players to have new players around.  (Obviously, I can see why it's important to SOE, but since they're the ones not doing the advertising and not starting this thread, I don't see how their outlook is relevant to the question I'm asking.) </p>

DngrMou
03-01-2007, 03:21 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><cite>TheresaN wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>Sure, you are right and there is nothing wrong...they are probably increasing the subscriptions so the devs can all go buy new cars or something...It has absolutley nothing to do with the increase in subscription cancelations... And "Mr Sony Stock Holder"...Unless you own a amazing amount of Sony stock, i  seriously doubt they are going to give you time of day, let alone the health of this game or any other product Sony makes...You and I both know that stock holders rarely if ever get insider inforamtion like that...and if they did, telling outsiders about it would be illegal...But nice try... Why don't you all go try to find new virgin players on your server...then report back how many you have located..it certainly isn't going to be enough to come close to offsetting the number of people who are leaving.  O.T. here's another thought..Maybe they are increasing YOUR station pass fees to offset the the losses they are suffering because of Vanguard...it's ashame because that game has promise...BUT Sigil used a game engine designed to run on a generation of video cards that haven't been released yet...and will cost upwards of $800?? How does it feel to know that you may be subsidizing Vanguard even though most of you aren't playing it? </blockquote><p>Clearly you are a player with a chip on your shoulder regarding something, and it isn't in relation to your original post that began this thread.  Enough REAL new players posted with their story, including myself, to inform you that the economics for a new player are quite the opposite.  </p><p>In terms of economy, things work very well for new players because they can make quite a bit of money selling things.  I had made 15 plat by the time I was in my mid-teen levels..and the simple fact is, that up to that point a new player doesn't NEED to buy anything.. the levels go so fast the gear is pretty much "disposable".  So, that plat was all profit.  </p><p>The economics of the low level game is NOT an issue, sell stuff to buy stuff.. works .. the nice thing about inflation in a game is that income is determined by the same exact pricing that you have to buy from.   Therefore, any and all inflation sees an equal increase in income.  This is quite different from how the real world works.. where you need to get a raise from your boss to keep pace with cost of living increases.  In EQ2, if the stuff you want to BUY costs more, then you also make more from SELLING it.  And, with everything level and tier based, you will never need to buy things beyond the level at which you could also go get them....so inflation is irrelevant.</p><p>With your original points disqualified by actual, truly new players. you have strayed entirely from the subject which you yourself created.   So, I must ask you, what is your real beef?  Somewhere in there is the root of a truth that you really have issues with, but it's been clouded by your misperceptions regarding the economy.  What is the real issue?</p></blockquote>That SOE continues to change game mechanics (not content) that make the game unpalitable to a lot of people...they leave, no one replaces them...the population goes to SHE IT and the players that remain suffer...No MARKETING, NO ADVERTISING, un neccesary changes to basic mechanics of the game that are working JSUT FINE, artifical manipulation of the economy in order to force people into time sink activities such as node harveting just to make money to afford items that once were purchasable with monies earned by adventuring...Those are my beefs... Look around you in game....(Not here) how many people do you see who want to spend their game play time harvesting nodes just to make coin? Relatively few....So why should anyone who is NEW be almost forced to do so just so they can outfit themselves? All in the name of timesink...And it's working SO well isn't it...PLENTY of new players and subsciptions aren't there......NOT </blockquote><p>This anti-SOE thing you're on is getting very old.  Money is now EASIER for people to make, money that was locked up in the banks of wealthy players has been reintroduced into the economy.  SOE increased the amount of items players can diversify their characters with, added new skills to the game, and finally provided options for common 'trash' drops other than dumping them for a couple silver at the nearest vendor.  And you complain about this?  </p><p>No new person is forced to do anything they don't want to.  New players can gear up just as easily as they did a year ago, (in fact, it's easier now).  Some of them have even posted saying as much...yet you continue to bill yourself as their official spokesperson.   They've spoken for themselves, which means you're speaking for no one but yourself....and nothing you've said yet rises above just another factually challenged anti SOE rant. </p>

Lord_Quaymar
03-01-2007, 04:37 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>That SOE continues to change game mechanics (not content) that make the game unpalitable to a lot of people...they leave, no one replaces them...the population goes to SHE IT and the players that remain suffer...No MARKETING, NO ADVERTISING, un neccesary changes to basic mechanics of the game that are working JSUT FINE, artifical manipulation of the economy in order to force people into time sink activities such as node harveting just to make money to afford items that once were purchasable with monies earned by adventuring...Those are my beefs... Look around you in game....(Not here) how many people do you see who want to spend their game play time harvesting nodes just to make coin? Relatively few....So why should anyone who is NEW be almost forced to do so just so they can outfit themselves? All in the name of timesink...And it's working SO well isn't it...PLENTY of new players and subsciptions aren't there......NOT </blockquote> Uhh.....I don't know about you but every MMORPG that I have EVER played (EQ1, EQ2, WoW and Guild Wars to name a few) requires that you do some sort of farming in order to make money that you in turn use to buy gear, etc... Where did you get the idea that it shouldn't be that way? Is this your first MMORPG?

sayitaintso
03-01-2007, 05:45 PM
<cite>dartie wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Sort of a simple-minded question here, but why are so many of the old players obsessed with the idea that new players aren't flocking to EQ2?</p><p>I don't think I count as new anymore (since I joined in November of '06), but my wife is new, since we just opened her account in February.  </p><p>The two of us play and have a grand old time except for when we run into crowds (such as a line for the Rotweed quest that we were determined to check off our list).  If new people join the EQ2 community, I guess that's fine with us, but there are already plenty of people on the servers to answer our questions and group/buy/sell/trade with.  </p><p>It hasn't occurred to either one of us to say, "Gee, if SOE would advertise this game more, then more people would be standing in line for Rotweed!"  So I'm just wondering what makes it so important for players to have new players around.  (Obviously, I can see why it's important to SOE, but since they're the ones not doing the advertising and not starting this thread, I don't see how their outlook is relevant to the question I'm asking.) </p></blockquote>Because veteran players make alts, and see that the number of new players is extremely low...It's easy to tell who are truly new, they have a steep learning curve and ask a lot of questions. You can tell a veteran player..they are the ones that take 30 minutes to get off the island, if they stay on it at all..Then as the vets progress through the levels they see few if any people they group with who are struggling to learn new things...And then there are those of us who simply ask around...I am sure that there are SOME new players...but not nearly enough to offset the numbers that are leaving the game...Common sense will tell you if 200,000 people have left that there were not 200,000 people to take their place or the number of players would stay constant..Now we all know that doesn't happen in any game, but in this case, the numbers are so proportionally out of whack, it's very easy to see that there are few new accounts being created... if no one left, new players wouldn't be important, but people leave games all the time...which means server populations fall, making it harder to play games that force grouping to achive meaningful progression. As the population falls, server mergers take place, that try to make it easier for players to group and maintain their level of play. (EQ2 had it's first server merger just a year after release, compared with EQ1 who didn't have a low population related merger until it was 6 years old) But something else happens behind the scenes as player popualtion falls off...Profits drop, forcing game makers to increase subscription costs. They also will move around staff, either to other projects, like they did in EQ1 or let them go, so there are fewer support related persons running the game...which also hinders the players by making new content enter the game slower or broken. New blood is very important to any game..and SOE hasn't made much of an effort to see to it that there was a constant flow of new interesting players....and because of that, the players who are being loyal, despite the problems that exist are the ones who "suffer"

Slapfish
03-01-2007, 06:32 PM
<cite>dartie wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Sort of a simple-minded question here, but why are so many of the old players obsessed with the idea that new players aren't flocking to EQ2?</p><p>I don't think I count as new anymore (since I joined in November of '06), but my wife is new, since we just opened her account in February.  </p><p>The two of us play and have a grand old time except for when we run into crowds (such as a line for the Rotweed quest that we were determined to check off our list).  If new people join the EQ2 community, I guess that's fine with us, but there are already plenty of people on the servers to answer our questions and group/buy/sell/trade with.  </p><p>It hasn't occurred to either one of us to say, "Gee, if SOE would advertise this game more, then more people would be standing in line for Rotweed!"  So I'm just wondering what makes it so important for players to have new players around.  (Obviously, I can see why it's important to SOE, but since they're the ones not doing the advertising and not starting this thread, I don't see how their outlook is relevant to the question I'm asking.) </p></blockquote><p>I'm not necessarily obsessed with it, but I do worry. I know that a lot of people leave the game for various reasons. Job or school pressures, or a new game, new baby etc... The guild I'm in has practically died in just one months time when several key players left to play Vanguard.  We see people leave, but not many new players come in to replace them. Most of the new players I meet are the type who play multiple games and probably won't have longevity in the game.  So it's a worry. If enough people leave without equal numbers to replace them, eventually the game will die. </p>