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ratman22
02-26-2007, 02:51 PM
<p>I don't get this at all. I see this all the time and it's <b>driving me nuts!</b></p><p>Here is a sample scenario:</p><p>I usually sell sisal roots for around 12g and have sold many of them around this price. It's a good, stable market price. Then, this happens:</p><p>Someone will have up some sisal roots for 12g. I'll put up my sisal roots for 11g 95s. Someone else will put up their's for 11g 85s. Then, someone will put up his/her sisal roots for 7g, and everyone selling their's afterwards tries to go below those prices. So, the person who did the big skip from 11g 85s to 7g just lowered the market price for sisal roots by 4g for everyone. <b>Why, oh why? This just hurts everyone, including this person!</b></p><p>People were buying at 12g, so why go so much lower? If you want to go lower than the lowest currently listed item, just go for 11g 75s or something like that. <b>I just don't get it!</b> Do these people just not want to make money? Are they just stupid? Do they not want to make money to buy ridiculously expensive spells, weapons, armor, etc.?</p>

Quijib0
02-26-2007, 03:00 PM
<p>Here's an idea...  Buy them out, and repost at ~12g.</p>

Amytheyst
02-26-2007, 03:01 PM
Ask yourself if the average (not twink) player buying a t2 rare thinks 12 gold is reasonable for 1? I know what your answer will be, but truly, you expect a real level 10-15 player to have 12 gold to drop on a single rare that drops frequently in the wild? Market supply and demand, blah blah blah. Putting it on a vendor for a few gold is STILL making a profit. Just a thought.

ratman22
02-26-2007, 03:10 PM
[email protected] Bayle wrote: <blockquote>Ask yourself if the average (not twink) player buying a t2 rare thinks 12 gold is reasonable for 1? I know what your answer will be, but truly, you expect a real level 10-15 player to have 12 gold to drop on a single rare that drops frequently in the wild? Market supply and demand, blah blah blah. Putting it on a vendor for a few gold is STILL making a profit. Just a thought. </blockquote><p> Please keep in mind that this is just a sample. The same thing applies if roots are being sold on average for 3s and suddenldy someone drops the price to 99c for no apparent reason, even though this person could have sold them at 2s 99c just as easily. I am talking about items that are NOT ridiculously overpriced, I'm talking about items that actually sell, often and in large quantities, at the higher prices.</p><p>There are items that are so expensive that they truly would not sell, or sell very rarely, at the listed price, but those are not what I'm talking about.</p>

ratman22
02-26-2007, 03:13 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>Here's an idea...  Buy them out, and repost at ~12g.</blockquote>I have done this on occasion, but this happens so often, I'm really just curious as to why it happens, because it makes no sense to me. In real life, if you were selling something that sells a lot for $10 and all the other vendors are selling it at that price, would you drop the price to $5 for no reason?

SteelPiston
02-26-2007, 03:13 PM
<p>It's the law of "Supply and Demand". If there were no Sisal roots other than yours available at 20g, then people would pay that price. However, if 20 people try and sell Sisal roots, the price will be low balled down to 2g. </p><p>Buy low, sell high. Buy those cheap roots and re-list them if it makes you unhappy. Look what's happened with crappy old Leaded Loam. Pre Tinkering, there was no demand for it and it was basically worthless. Now the stuff sells for 30s to 1g a piece. I suggest you turn your harvesting skills over to farming leaded loam. I would love to see that market flooded with supply and the price to fall, but that won't happen any time soon as it regularly all gets gobbled up. There have been a few times lately when the broker has been completely cleaned out.</p>

Melli
02-26-2007, 03:14 PM
I admit to being one of those folks that prices under the market if I think the market price is unfair, and in fact did that with the very item you mentioned to the same degree you mentioned.   Someone gave you the perfect solution - buy out the lower priced ones and resell them at the price you think they're worth. 

Natak
02-26-2007, 03:16 PM
<cite>ratman22 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I don't get this at all. I see this all the time and it's <b>driving me nuts!</b></p><p>Here is a sample scenario:</p><p>I usually sell sisal roots for around 12g and have sold many of them around this price. It's a good, stable market price. Then, this happens:</p><p>Someone will have up some sisal roots for 12g. I'll put up my sisal roots for 11g 95s. Someone else will put up their's for 11g 85s. Then, someone will put up his/her sisal roots for 7g, and everyone selling their's afterwards tries to go below those prices. So, the person who did the big skip from 11g 85s to 7g just lowered the market price for sisal roots by 4g for everyone. <b>Why, oh why? This just hurts everyone, including this person!</b></p><p><b><span style="color: #ffff00">How does this hurt the person? Does it cost ANYTHING to harvest a sissal root? Last I checked, it doesn't. So here is what happens. The person puts it up at 7 gold. Either a) another seller buys it and reprices it at a higher price --- Consequence: orginal seller gets the 7 gold he wants and the new seller has more stock, and at a higher price which will sell at what he wants. Win/win Or b) a person who can use the root buys it at a discount price --- Consequence: Seller gets what he wants (the 7 gold) and the buyer gets a good deal on a rare. Win/win. The only "loser" is the person who was not bought from at the higher price.</span> </b></p><p>People were buying at 12g, so why go so much lower? If you want to go lower than the lowest currently listed item, just go for 11g 75s or something like that. <b>I just don't get it!</b> Do these people just not want to make money? Are they just stupid? Do they not want to make money to buy ridiculously expensive spells, weapons, armor, etc.?</p></blockquote>Why do you feel the need to dictate how much someone sells ANYTHING for in a virtual game. If the person wanted to sell it for 1 gold, more power to them. Is it hurting you? If so, perhaps you are the reason you are hurt for wanting to keep the prices so high. Demanding someone sell an item that has almost NO risk associated with getting for a price YOU deem fair is ridiculous.

Kocia
02-26-2007, 03:26 PM
Economy at work, a hard concept to grasp in the world where socialism is spoonfed from cradle to grave.

UlteriorModem
02-26-2007, 03:27 PM
<p>Using the roots as an example</p><p>Some folks collect these things in their "clear cutting" and are to them more or less un-wanted.</p><p>So joe clear cut has 40 roots for which he has absolutly no use. He check the broker and places them at 12g.</p><p>The roots sit there for a week and dont sell. Joe checks the market and sees they have dropped to 8 g. Hes sick of them taking up bank slot(s) so he prices them at 7g "just to get rid of them".</p><p>A provisioner sees roots at 7g rubs his hands together with glee and snaps em up.</p><p>Ive always felt the roots were a little over valued, so much so Ill go through the trouble to collect them myself.</p>

Siclone
02-26-2007, 03:34 PM
<cite>ratman22 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I don't get this at all. I see this all the time and it's <b>driving me nuts!</b></p><p>Here is a sample scenario:</p><p>I usually sell sisal roots for around 12g and have sold many of them around this price. It's a good, stable market price. Then, this happens:</p><p>Someone will have up some sisal roots for 12g. I'll put up my sisal roots for 11g 95s. Someone else will put up their's for 11g 85s. Then, someone will put up his/her sisal roots for 7g, and everyone selling their's afterwards tries to go below those prices. So, the person who did the big skip from 11g 85s to 7g just lowered the market price for sisal roots by 4g for everyone. <b>Why, oh why? This just hurts everyone, including this person!</b></p><p>People were buying at 12g, so why go so much lower? If you want to go lower than the lowest currently listed item, just go for 11g 75s or something like that. <b>I just don't get it!</b> Do these people just not want to make money? Are they just stupid? Do they not want to make money to buy ridiculously expensive spells, weapons, armor, etc.?</p></blockquote><p>welcome to economics 101...its called supply and demand.  the only one it hurts by dropping the price is the seller.  your trying to hurt the players looking for root by charging more then they are worth.</p><p>Personally I love to undercut guys like you trying to rip people off.  I did not work hard getting roots and loot so I just take what the price someone is willing to pay and be happy with it.  </p>

ratman22
02-26-2007, 03:35 PM
<cite>Natak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ratman22 wrote:</cite><blockquote><b><span style="color: #cc3300">How does this hurt the person? Does it cost ANYTHING to harvest a sissal root? Last I checked, it doesn't. So here is what happens. The person puts it up at 7 gold. Either a) another seller buys it and reprices it at a higher price --- Consequence: orginal seller gets the 7 gold he wants and the new seller has more stock, and at a higher price which will sell at what he wants. Win/win Or b) a person who can use the root buys it at a discount price --- Consequence: Seller gets what he wants (the 7 gold) and the buyer gets a good deal on a rare. Win/win. The only "loser" is the person who was not bought from at the higher price.</span> </b></blockquote><p>Well, I feel we both lose because both of us could be making more money. Remember, the only reason I, and I assume most other players, sell anything on the broker to begin with, is to make money, so that we can afford to buy the things we want/need for our characters. I'm not particularly happy about the prices of many of the items I want/need to buy, but as many folks here have stated, market price goes (most of the time). So, I want to maximize the amount of money I get for my stuff so I can afford to pay for stuff I want without having to grind 50 years to be able to afford them.</p><p>Why do you feel the need to dictate how much someone sells ANYTHING for in a virtual game. If the person wanted to sell it for 1 gold, more power to them. Is it hurting you? If so, perhaps you are the reason you are hurt for wanting to keep the prices so high. Demanding someone sell an item that has almost NO risk associated with getting for a price YOU deem fair is ridiculous.</p></blockquote>Whoa, chill out! I'm not dictating or demanding anything, nor do I want to. I am merely curious why people feel the need to lower the prices of items when I personally see no reason to and I personally see a lot of need to get good prices for my stuff so I can afford other people's high priced stuff.

ratman22
02-26-2007, 03:46 PM
<cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote>ratman22 wrote: <p>welcome to economics 101...its called supply and demand.  the only one it hurts by dropping the price is the seller.  your trying to hurt the players looking for root by charging more then they are worth.</p><p>Personally I love to undercut guys like you trying to rip people off.  I did not work hard getting roots and loot so I just take what the price someone is willing to pay and be happy with it.  </p></blockquote><p>Uh, sorry, I don't get this at all. The rules of supply and demand actually cause most sellers to sell items at the highest price they can get away with, meaning, the highest price at which the seller still sells a certain quantity of the item being sold. Do you really think GM wouldn't raise car prices by 20% if people would still buy just as many?</p><p>So, if you could sell roots for 3s each (I and many others have sold thousands at this price, so I don't think it's outrageously high), but are selling them at 1s each just to undercut "guys like me", you are a) hurting me, but also b) hurting yourself, because you are costing yourself 2s for each root.</p><p>Again, the reason I feel the need to keep prices resonably high, is because I need to buy stuff myself. I'm not doing this to "rip people off". Have you seen the prices for some spells even for a 20s and 30s character? I would give stuff away if I didn't have to buy stuff myself.</p>

ChildofHate
02-26-2007, 03:46 PM
<cite>ratman22 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I don't get this at all. I see this all the time and it's <b>driving me nuts!</b></p><p>Here is a sample scenario:</p><p>I usually sell sisal roots for around 12g and have sold many of them around this price. It's a good, stable market price. Then, this happens:</p><p>Someone will have up some sisal roots for 12g. I'll put up my sisal roots for 11g 95s. Someone else will put up their's for 11g 85s. Then, someone will put up his/her sisal roots for 7g, and everyone selling their's afterwards tries to go below those prices. So, the person who did the big skip from 11g 85s to 7g just lowered the market price for sisal roots by 4g for everyone. <b>Why, oh why? This just hurts everyone, including this person!</b></p><p>People were buying at 12g, so why go so much lower? If you want to go lower than the lowest currently listed item, just go for 11g 75s or something like that. <b>I just don't get it!</b> Do these people just not want to make money? Are they just stupid? Do they not want to make money to buy ridiculously expensive spells, weapons, armor, etc.?</p></blockquote><p>The same complaint you have about someone hammering the price to 7g could be said by the guy you undercut by 5s.  I think you're just upset that someone posted it for less then you and will sell it before you do.  You have 1 of two options, do as someone previously said, buy up the cheaper market items and sell them all for your higher price or simply move on.  How is it though you can call someone else stupid for selling lower then what you have it priced at when you just said you undercut someone else?  How much doesn't matter.  $$ is all relative.  Bottom line, you did no different then the guy you posted a complaint about.  You are not the market determinate.  Sure, you can whine as much as you like but withyour example, you sound hypocritical.  "I lowered my price to beat the other guy but then SOMEONE ELSE lowered THEIRS more then mine!!!  THAT'S NOT FAIR!"  That's what you basically have said.</p><p>Now, if this was someone selling CRAFTED items for less then what it costs to make the item, you would have a little more ground to make your posted complaint and rightfully so. Selling crafted items for less then cost is of course not good business practice.  that's a given.  But there is no set value of the price of harvested items.</p>

Natak
02-26-2007, 03:58 PM
<cite>ratman22 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Natak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ratman22 wrote:</cite><blockquote><b><span style="color: #cc3300">How does this hurt the person? Does it cost ANYTHING to harvest a sissal root? Last I checked, it doesn't. So here is what happens. The person puts it up at 7 gold. Either a) another seller buys it and reprices it at a higher price --- Consequence: orginal seller gets the 7 gold he wants and the new seller has more stock, and at a higher price which will sell at what he wants. Win/win Or b) a person who can use the root buys it at a discount price --- Consequence: Seller gets what he wants (the 7 gold) and the buyer gets a good deal on a rare. Win/win. The only "loser" is the person who was not bought from at the higher price.</span> </b></blockquote><p>Well, I feel we both lose because both of us could be making more money. Remember, the only reason I, and I assume most other players, sell anything on the broker to begin with, is to make money, so that we can afford to buy the things we want/need for our characters. I'm not particularly happy about the prices of many of the items I want/need to buy, but as many folks here have stated, market price goes (most of the time). So, I want to maximize the amount of money I get for my stuff so I can afford to pay for stuff I want without having to grind 50 years to be able to afford them.</p><p><span style="color: #ffff00">If a person wants 7 gold, and are happy with it, it doesn't hurt them.</span> </p><p>Why do you feel the need to dictate how much someone sells ANYTHING for in a virtual game. If the person wanted to sell it for 1 gold, more power to them. Is it hurting you? If so, perhaps you are the reason you are hurt for wanting to keep the prices so high. Demanding someone sell an item that has almost NO risk associated with getting for a price YOU deem fair is ridiculous.</p></blockquote>Whoa, chill out! I'm not dictating or demanding anything, nor do I want to. I am merely curious why people feel the need to lower the prices of items when I personally see no reason to and I personally see a lot of need to get good prices for my stuff so I can afford other people's high priced stuff. </blockquote>Yet you are, by the very nature of coming here and complaining about it. Look at your points: <ul><li>I don't get this at all. I see this all the time and it's <b>driving me nuts!</b></li></ul>This sentence gives the impression that you see a problem, cannot understand the problem (to you) and it bothers YOU. <ul><li>I usually sell sisal roots for around 12g and have sold many of them around this price. It's a good, stable market price. Then, this happens:</li></ul>YOU feel that 12 g is a reasonable price. You even think it is a good, stable price. Then you describe what happens to you. <ul><li>Someone will have up some sisal roots for 12g. I'll put up my sisal roots for 11g 95s</li></ul>You chose to undercut someone by a miniscule amount. It is more insulting to do this than by a larger amount, in a lot of peoples eyes. Still, it is YOUR choice. How would you feel if someone complained about YOU undercutting them? <ul><li>Then, someone will put up his/her sisal roots for 7g, and everyone selling their's afterwards tries to go below those prices. So, the person who did the big skip from 11g 85s to 7g just lowered the market price for sisal roots by 4g for everyone. <b>Why, oh why? This just hurts everyone, including this person!</b></li></ul>So here is where you begin to complain. Not only complain, but EMPHASIZE it with bold text and the lamenting term "Why, oh why" as if it were some poorly written shakespearean trajedy that they chose to undercut by 4 gold, yet they will still make a  7 gold profit. <ul><li>People were buying at 12g, so why go so much lower? If you want to go lower than the lowest currently listed item, just go for 11g 75s or something like that.</li></ul>Here it appears you ARE trying to dictate what they should sell for. <ul><li><b>I just don't get it!</b> Do these people just not want to make money? Are they just stupid?</li></ul>Again with the bold text. And implying they may be stupid. So again, you give the impression of trying to dictate prices because you don't agree or understand their reasoning. <ul><li>Do they not want to make money to buy ridiculously expensive spells, weapons, armor, etc.?</li></ul>Hypothesis: ridiculously expensive spells, weapons and armor are CAUSED by price gouging on RAWS that cost  nothing but time to harvest. No capital, all labor. Should labor be compensated? Yes. Is it worth as much as some charge? That is purely subjective. All in all, your post, the tone in which it is depicted, the emphasis and all that combined makes it SEEM that you wish to dictate that no one may undercut by more than 25 silver.

Calthine
02-26-2007, 03:59 PM
When undercutting occurs I take my stuff off the market when the price gets to low for me.  Then the undercutters get it out of their system, and I put my stuff back up.

Scald
02-26-2007, 04:05 PM
<p>If you had a spell master you just looted. You see 3 of them on the broker, priced:</p><p>3 plat</p><p>2 plat 90 gold</p><p>2 plat 80 gold</p><p> Do you set yours for 2 plat 70 gold?</p><p>50 gold?</p><p>If you said 50 gold, I really would like to know why (just like the OP). Taking this down to the root example given earlier, if roots generally hover in the 3 silver range, why would you sell yours for 1 silver? Im talking about weeks and weeks where I can sell roots in large (hundreds) quantity for 3 silver. Why would someone put there up for 1? Yes, theirs will sell before mine but is selling those roots 1-2 hours before mine really worth a 75% reduction in profit?</p><p>I think this is the crux of the OPs question. And the reality is if you sell them at 1, odds are VERY high a smart market watcher will have just thanked you for making him almost 2 silver profit for 3 seconds of work. I would hazard a guess that most ludicrously underpriced items are quickly snapped up and resold at a higher price. The original seller basically became a migrant worker for "the man" by letting the seller make a huge profit off of the original sellers labor. Are there really that many people who enjoy being taken advantage of? It would drive me crazy if I put up my roots at 1 silver day in day out and constantly saw the same set of people buying them and reselling them at 3 (and actually selling them!) Why would you continue this path of undercutting if the only real result was making someone twice as much profit from YOUR efforts?</p>

Zard
02-26-2007, 04:12 PM
<cite>ratman22 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I usually sell sisal roots for around 12g and have sold many of them around this price. It's a good, stable market price. Then, this happens:</p><p>Someone will have up some sisal roots for 12g. I'll put up my sisal roots for 11g 95s.</p></blockquote><p>It sounds like YOU are the one that started the price war by undercutting another merchant selling the item for a price you felt was the stable market price.</p>

Illmarr
02-26-2007, 04:14 PM
<p>I've been known to say FU to people that have undercut me by a very small amount and go overboard on the discount. I don't buy anything off the broker so it was free to me (My own opinion, don't start quoting time spent costs, I enjoyed the lotto of getting a rare or not for it's own sake, or I came across the item adventuring and gaining exp) </p><p>Make your cost equal to mine and let people pick which they want to buy. You want to get in a pricing war I'll undercut you and get mine and [Removed for Content] you off, so it's win/win</p>

Hammer4
02-26-2007, 04:16 PM
<cite>Scald wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>If you had a spell master you just looted. You see 3 of them on the broker, priced:</p><p>3 plat</p><p>2 plat 90 gold</p><p>2 plat 80 gold</p><p> Do you set yours for 2 plat 70 gold?</p><p>50 gold?</p><p>If you said 50 gold, I really would like to know why (just like the OP). Taking this down to the root example given earlier, if roots generally hover in the 3 silver range, why would you sell yours for 1 silver? Im talking about weeks and weeks where I can sell roots in large (hundreds) quantity for 3 silver. Why would someone put there up for 1? Yes, theirs will sell before mine but is selling those roots 1-2 hours before mine really worth a 75% reduction in profit?</p><p>I think this is the crux of the OPs question. And the reality is if you sell them at 1, odds are VERY high a smart market watcher will have just thanked you for making him almost 2 silver profit for 3 seconds of work. I would hazard a guess that most ludicrously underpriced items are quickly snapped up and resold at a higher price. The original seller basically became a migrant worker for "the man" by letting the seller make a huge profit off of the original sellers labor. Are there really that many people who enjoy being taken advantage of? It would drive me crazy if I put up my roots at 1 silver day in day out and constantly saw the same set of people buying them and reselling them at 3 (and actually selling them!) Why would you continue this path of undercutting if the only real result was making someone twice as much profit from YOUR efforts?</p></blockquote><p> There is a simple and effective answer to your question:  Turnaround time.  I can put my Master 1 up on broker at 2p70g and let it sit there for a couple weeks to collect my price, or I can put it up for 50g and have someone pick it up just on the investment value tomorrow.  I don't need 2.7 plat in a couple weeks, I need 50g RIGHT NOW so I put it up at the fire sale price.</p><p>Same thing with the 7g sisal roots.  There's nothing wrong with someone choosing to offer a deep discount in order to move merchandise.  That's just as much part of the law of supply and demand as people undercutting each other by 5sp.</p><p>As others have repeatedly said, if you think the price is too low, buy up the low priced merchandise and resell it at your favored rate.  The original seller makes the money they want and has no right to complain, and you make the money you want too.  Assuming people are willing to pay your price, everyone wins.</p>

Natak
02-26-2007, 04:17 PM
<cite>Scald wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>If you had a spell master you just looted. You see 3 of them on the broker, priced:</p><p>3 plat</p><p>2 plat 90 gold</p><p>2 plat 80 gold</p><p> Do you set yours for 2 plat 70 gold?</p><p>50 gold?</p><p>If you said 50 gold, I really would like to know why (just like the OP). Taking this down to the root example given earlier, if roots generally hover in the 3 silver range, why would you sell yours for 1 silver? Im talking about weeks and weeks where I can sell roots in large (hundreds) quantity for 3 silver. Why would someone put there up for 1? Yes, theirs will sell before mine but is selling those roots 1-2 hours before mine really worth a 75% reduction in profit?</p><p>I think this is the crux of the OPs question. And the reality is if you sell them at 1, odds are VERY high a smart market watcher will have just thanked you for making him almost 2 silver profit for 3 seconds of work. I would hazard a guess that most ludicrously underpriced items are quickly snapped up and resold at a higher price. The original seller basically became a migrant worker for "the man" by letting the seller make a huge profit off of the original sellers labor. Are there really that many people who enjoy being taken advantage of? It would drive me crazy if I put up my roots at 1 silver day in day out and constantly saw the same set of people buying them and reselling them at 3 (and actually selling them!) Why would you continue this path of undercutting if the only real result was making someone twice as much profit from YOUR efforts?</p></blockquote>However, obtaining a master IS NOT the same as harvesting a root, or other raw. Risk vs Reward. How much risk is involved in harvesting a sissal root (the root in question). Not nearly as much as obtaining a master (the chances of getting a master chest off of a normal, easy mob is negligible). How much do I sell my masters? I take the current lowest price, minus the broker commision, and deduct 25% from that prices. Meaning if it is selling for 1 plat, i sell for 75 gold.  If it is selling for 2 plat, i sell for 1 plat 50 gold. But here is the kicker. I chose the price. Not some price polizie I never seem to have a problem with money, and my broker space moves faster than a greased pig down a slide covered with lard.

HBP
02-26-2007, 04:18 PM
[Removed for Content]....quit crying and just play the game called "economics" <img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Siclone
02-26-2007, 04:26 PM
<cite>ratman22 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote>ratman22 wrote: <p>welcome to economics 101...its called supply and demand.  the only one it hurts by dropping the price is the seller.  your trying to hurt the players looking for root by charging more then they are worth.</p><p>Personally I love to undercut guys like you trying to rip people off.  I did not work hard getting roots and loot so I just take what the price someone is willing to pay and be happy with it.  </p></blockquote><p><b><u>Uh, sorry, I don't get this at all</u></b>. The rules of supply and demand actually cause most sellers to sell items at the highest price they can get away with, meaning, the highest price at which the seller still sells a certain quantity of the item being sold. Do you really think GM wouldn't raise car prices by 20% if people would still buy just as many?</p><p>So, if you could sell roots for 3s each (I and many others have sold thousands at this price, so I don't think it's outrageously high), but are selling them at 1s each just to undercut "guys like me", you are a) hurting me, but also b) hurting yourself, because you are costing yourself 2s for each root.</p><p>Again, the reason I feel the need to keep prices resonably high, is because I need to buy stuff myself. I'm not doing this to "rip people off". Have you seen the prices for some spells even for a 20s and 30s character? I would give stuff away if I didn't have to buy stuff myself.</p></blockquote><p>I know you dont as proven with this post and your orgianal post.  You dont get to set the price, got it? the economy does, how much supply and how much demand for that supply and what people are willing to pay, set it,,,,you,,,,dont.  If I want to charge 4 gold lower to you to entice poeple in buying my root instead of harvesting, I will and do.  Just cause you sold roots for 12 gold yesterday, does not mean the price for roots today is 12 gold.</p>

ratman22
02-26-2007, 04:27 PM
<cite>UlteriorModem wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Using the roots as an example</p><p>Some folks collect these things in their "clear cutting" and are to them more or less un-wanted.</p><p>So joe clear cut has 40 roots for which he has absolutly no use. He check the broker and places them at 12g.</p><p>The roots sit there for a week and dont sell. Joe checks the market and sees they have dropped to 8 g. Hes sick of them taking up bank slot(s) so he prices them at 7g "just to get rid of them".</p><p>A provisioner sees roots at 7g rubs his hands together with glee and snaps em up.</p><p>Ive always felt the roots were a little over valued, so much so Ill go through the trouble to collect them myself.</p></blockquote><p>That would never happen. Sisal roots at 7g will sell instantly!</p><p><b>This goes back to my original scenario</b>: the item being sold is at a reasonable market price at the higher price. It's a price at which the item sells a reasonable amount in a reasonable time. For example, selling roots at 3s happens daily, selling sisal roots for 10-12g will happne in a day or 2. The person doing the large undercut is actually pricing their items at much below market value.</p>

Amytheyst
02-26-2007, 04:27 PM
Because some people have their own perception of what "fair" is. I originally didnt want to create an alt in every tradeskill/harvest profession, but did because of the market. Ive also been known to throw up 20 bags for (say) 4 gold when the current sellers are selling at 6. Of course they buy all mine up, Im expecting them to. Thats why I had 20 more waiting. 4 gold again. (pause) same thing. Then I drop the other 40 bags on. End result is usually a tell by the end of the night- by then Ive managed another 80 bags. Problem here is not mine, I sold (or tried) to put the items up that someone could afford- Eventually, I end up with repeat business via tells. Theres a point where throwing things up on the market at a certain price just because thats what people <i>will </i>pay isnt smart either. Part of my fun is also steamrolling what I percieve to be over inflated prices-  I just approach it  in a very mean manner.  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> My "efforts" left me with repeat business, and someone else stuck with 80+ bags that may sell eventually, if I let them. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I still made a good profit, and ended up with happy customers who come back.

ratman22
02-26-2007, 04:30 PM
<cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ratman22 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote>ratman22 wrote: <p>welcome to economics 101...its called supply and demand.  the only one it hurts by dropping the price is the seller.  your trying to hurt the players looking for root by charging more then they are worth.</p><p>Personally I love to undercut guys like you trying to rip people off.  I did not work hard getting roots and loot so I just take what the price someone is willing to pay and be happy with it.  </p></blockquote><p><b><u>Uh, sorry, I don't get this at all</u></b>. The rules of supply and demand actually cause most sellers to sell items at the highest price they can get away with, meaning, the highest price at which the seller still sells a certain quantity of the item being sold. Do you really think GM wouldn't raise car prices by 20% if people would still buy just as many?</p><p>So, if you could sell roots for 3s each (I and many others have sold thousands at this price, so I don't think it's outrageously high), but are selling them at 1s each just to undercut "guys like me", you are a) hurting me, but also b) hurting yourself, because you are costing yourself 2s for each root.</p><p>Again, the reason I feel the need to keep prices resonably high, is because I need to buy stuff myself. I'm not doing this to "rip people off". Have you seen the prices for some spells even for a 20s and 30s character? I would give stuff away if I didn't have to buy stuff myself.</p></blockquote><p>I know you dont as proven with this post and your orgianal post.  You dont get to set the price, got it? the economy does, how much supply and how much demand for that supply and what people are willing to pay, set it,,,,you,,,,dont.  If I want to charge 4 gold lower to you to entice poeple in buying my root instead of harvesting, I will and do.  Just cause you sold roots for 12 gold yesterday, does not mean the price for roots today is 12 gold.</p></blockquote>I understand and agree with this. However, this does not answer my original question: why did you set the price at 4g if you could instead sell the item just as easily at 12g? <b>That</b> is my question. not <b>that</b> it happens, but <b>why</b> does it happen?

Ishya
02-26-2007, 04:31 PM
<cite>Scald wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>If you had a spell master you just looted. You see 3 of them on the broker, priced:</p><p>3 plat</p><p>2 plat 90 gold</p><p>2 plat 80 gold</p><p> Do you set yours for 2 plat 70 gold?</p><p>50 gold?</p><p>If you said 50 gold, I really would like to know why (just like the OP). Taking this down to the root example given earlier, if roots generally hover in the 3 silver range, why would you sell yours for 1 silver? Im talking about weeks and weeks where I can sell roots in large (hundreds) quantity for 3 silver. Why would someone put there up for 1? Yes, theirs will sell before mine but is selling those roots 1-2 hours before mine really worth a 75% reduction in profit?</p><p>I think this is the crux of the OPs question. And the reality is if you sell them at 1, odds are VERY high a smart market watcher will have just thanked you for making him almost 2 silver profit for 3 seconds of work. I would hazard a guess that most ludicrously underpriced items are quickly snapped up and resold at a higher price. The original seller basically became a migrant worker for "the man" by letting the seller make a huge profit off of the original sellers labor. Are there really that many people who enjoy being taken advantage of? It would drive me crazy if I put up my roots at 1 silver day in day out and constantly saw the same set of people buying them and reselling them at 3 (and actually selling them!) Why would you continue this path of undercutting if the only real result was making someone twice as much profit from YOUR efforts?</p></blockquote>dependsonwhat tier? if some nitwits try to sell thier lvl 10-20 masters for 2-3pplat,i certainly will sell mine for 50. not because i need the money, but because some are selling their stuff for way to much. in this example a lvl10-20 wont have 2-3 plat to spend on a master, hell even master pre lvl 60 aren't worth that much i price my things. the way i think i would buy it for that price

Natak
02-26-2007, 04:32 PM
ratman22 wrote: <blockquote><p>That would never happen. Sisal roots at 7g will sell instantly!</p><p><b>This goes back to my original scenario</b>: the item being sold is at a reasonable market price at the higher price. It's a price at which the item sells a reasonable amount in a reasonable time. For example, selling roots at 3s happens daily, selling sisal roots for 10-12g will happne in a day or 2. The person doing the large undercut is actually pricing their items at much below market value.</p></blockquote>Reasonable by WHOM? Are you who determines it? Is it the people who put the items up? Is it the people who buy it? Is it Sony? The answer is: None of the above. A resonable price for an item that has inherent costs involved is whatever makes the person selling it happy.

UlteriorModem
02-26-2007, 04:32 PM
<cite>Calthine wrote:</cite><blockquote>When undercutting occurs I take my stuff off the market when the price gets to low for me.  Then the undercutters get it out of their system, and I put my stuff back up. </blockquote> But what does that accomplish other than opening a bank slot ? Why not just leave em up there at "your" price ?

Amytheyst
02-26-2007, 04:34 PM
<cite>ratman22 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ratman22 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote>ratman22 wrote: <p>welcome to economics 101...its called supply and demand.  the only one it hurts by dropping the price is the seller.  your trying to hurt the players looking for root by charging more then they are worth.</p><p>Personally I love to undercut guys like you trying to rip people off.  I did not work hard getting roots and loot so I just take what the price someone is willing to pay and be happy with it.  </p></blockquote><p><b><u>Uh, sorry, I don't get this at all</u></b>. The rules of supply and demand actually cause most sellers to sell items at the highest price they can get away with, meaning, the highest price at which the seller still sells a certain quantity of the item being sold. Do you really think GM wouldn't raise car prices by 20% if people would still buy just as many?</p><p>So, if you could sell roots for 3s each (I and many others have sold thousands at this price, so I don't think it's outrageously high), but are selling them at 1s each just to undercut "guys like me", you are a) hurting me, but also b) hurting yourself, because you are costing yourself 2s for each root.</p><p>Again, the reason I feel the need to keep prices resonably high, is because I need to buy stuff myself. I'm not doing this to "rip people off". Have you seen the prices for some spells even for a 20s and 30s character? I would give stuff away if I didn't have to buy stuff myself.</p></blockquote><p>I know you dont as proven with this post and your orgianal post.  You dont get to set the price, got it? the economy does, how much supply and how much demand for that supply and what people are willing to pay, set it,,,,you,,,,dont.  If I want to charge 4 gold lower to you to entice poeple in buying my root instead of harvesting, I will and do.  Just cause you sold roots for 12 gold yesterday, does not mean the price for roots today is 12 gold.</p></blockquote>I understand and agree with this. However, this does not answer my original question: why did you set the price at 4g if you could instead sell the item just as easily at 12g? <b>That</b> is my question. not <b>that</b> it happens, but <b>why</b> does it happen? </blockquote>Again, look at what a real player at that tier has for monetary resources, then ask yourself what is reasonable. A level 10 player wont have 12 gold to drop on a single rare. Some people have a conscience?

Natak
02-26-2007, 04:38 PM
[email protected] Bayle wrote: <blockquote>Again, look at what a real player at that tier has for monetary resources, then ask yourself what is reasonable. A level 10 player wont have 12 gold to drop on a single rare. Some people have a conscience? </blockquote>Conscience really shouldn't play a part in selling / buying. Common sense should however. As you state, a typical player at that tier probably won't have 10-12 gold to spend on a single raw that will produce one item, which they will then have to sell for 12-14g, again a price that a player of that range probably won't have (unless he has alts). I know if i pooled all my alts money and resources together i would have about 30-40 plat, and that is because i spend stuff as soon as i get it. Over my time here, i have probably spent around 100 - 150 plat, and many others have spent much more. I am a fairly casual player, so don't have a problem Heck, I even remove stuff off of my broker and sell it to the NPC merchant if it doesn't move quick enough... Talk about a bath! (according to the Orig Poster). However if somethng has been on my broker for 2 weeks at the lowest possible price, chances are no one is really interested in that item.

Jai1
02-26-2007, 04:39 PM
<p>As far as the rares go, some crafters like me look for the 'bottom dropping out'.  Then we buy 10+ of the items.  I tend to be cheap and have a general idea of what the rares sell for.  I imagine since rares have actually no value people tend to just get what they can for them.  They also may not know what the price generally is so they just keep undercutting.  People do buy them up and then the prices go back the generally listed price.   Seems to always fluctuacte though.</p>

ratman22
02-26-2007, 04:42 PM
[email protected] Bayle wrote: <blockquote><cite>ratman22 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ratman22 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote>ratman22 wrote: <p>welcome to economics 101...its called supply and demand.  the only one it hurts by dropping the price is the seller.  your trying to hurt the players looking for root by charging more then they are worth.</p><p>Personally I love to undercut guys like you trying to rip people off.  I did not work hard getting roots and loot so I just take what the price someone is willing to pay and be happy with it.  </p></blockquote><p><b><u>Uh, sorry, I don't get this at all</u></b>. The rules of supply and demand actually cause most sellers to sell items at the highest price they can get away with, meaning, the highest price at which the seller still sells a certain quantity of the item being sold. Do you really think GM wouldn't raise car prices by 20% if people would still buy just as many?</p><p>So, if you could sell roots for 3s each (I and many others have sold thousands at this price, so I don't think it's outrageously high), but are selling them at 1s each just to undercut "guys like me", you are a) hurting me, but also b) hurting yourself, because you are costing yourself 2s for each root.</p><p>Again, the reason I feel the need to keep prices resonably high, is because I need to buy stuff myself. I'm not doing this to "rip people off". Have you seen the prices for some spells even for a 20s and 30s character? I would give stuff away if I didn't have to buy stuff myself.</p></blockquote><p>I know you dont as proven with this post and your orgianal post.  You dont get to set the price, got it? the economy does, how much supply and how much demand for that supply and what people are willing to pay, set it,,,,you,,,,dont.  If I want to charge 4 gold lower to you to entice poeple in buying my root instead of harvesting, I will and do.  Just cause you sold roots for 12 gold yesterday, does not mean the price for roots today is 12 gold.</p></blockquote>I understand and agree with this. However, this does not answer my original question: why did you set the price at 4g if you could instead sell the item just as easily at 12g? <b>That</b> is my question. not <b>that</b> it happens, but <b>why</b> does it happen? </blockquote>Again, look at what a real player at that tier has for monetary resources, then ask yourself what is reasonable. A level 10 player wont have 12 gold to drop on a single rare. Some people have a conscience? </blockquote><p>Please define "real player". So, do you really arbitrarily set your broker prices based on some WAG of what this mythical "real player" will have in funds? How do you know you're even remotely close to reality with such guesses?</p><p>Thanks to everyone, btw, on the psychoanalysis and insults in reply to a forum question. </p>

Siclone
02-26-2007, 04:42 PM
<cite>ratman22 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ratman22 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote>ratman22 wrote: <p>welcome to economics 101...its called supply and demand.  the only one it hurts by dropping the price is the seller.  your trying to hurt the players looking for root by charging more then they are worth.</p><p>Personally I love to undercut guys like you trying to rip people off.  I did not work hard getting roots and loot so I just take what the price someone is willing to pay and be happy with it.  </p></blockquote><p><b><u>Uh, sorry, I don't get this at all</u></b>. The rules of supply and demand actually cause most sellers to sell items at the highest price they can get away with, meaning, the highest price at which the seller still sells a certain quantity of the item being sold. Do you really think GM wouldn't raise car prices by 20% if people would still buy just as many?</p><p>So, if you could sell roots for 3s each (I and many others have sold thousands at this price, so I don't think it's outrageously high), but are selling them at 1s each just to undercut "guys like me", you are a) hurting me, but also b) hurting yourself, because you are costing yourself 2s for each root.</p><p>Again, the reason I feel the need to keep prices resonably high, is because I need to buy stuff myself. I'm not doing this to "rip people off". Have you seen the prices for some spells even for a 20s and 30s character? I would give stuff away if I didn't have to buy stuff myself.</p></blockquote><p>I know you dont as proven with this post and your orgianal post.  You dont get to set the price, got it? the economy does, how much supply and how much demand for that supply and what people are willing to pay, set it,,,,you,,,,dont.  If I want to charge 4 gold lower to you to entice poeple in buying my root instead of harvesting, I will and do.  Just cause you sold roots for 12 gold yesterday, does not mean the price for roots today is 12 gold.</p></blockquote>I understand and agree with this. However, this does not answer my original question: why did you set the price at 4g if you could instead sell the item just as easily at 12g? <b>That</b> is my question. not <b>that</b> it happens, but <b>why</b> does it happen? </blockquote>you cant say that the roots I sold for 7 gold each I could have gotten 12? you dont know that, the person that bought them for 7 bought them cause they were cheap and aint paying 12 he is going to harvest them himself then pay 12.  Also, he wants a quick sale, at 7 gold each I will sell in an hour where as for 12 each, I may have to wait a day or two, or more and I need the money now,,,,,,there is your why question.  Also the market never may be as high as 12 again,,,people start to flood the market, cause they are selling for so high and everyone starts to undercut everyone and that root will never see 12 again,,,on the flip side you are selling them for 12 how do you know they wont pay 15? ......

ratman22
02-26-2007, 04:51 PM
<cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote>you cant say that the roots I sold for 7 gold each I could have gotten 12? you dont know that, the person that bought them for 7 bought them cause they were cheap and aint paying 12 he is going to harvest them himself then pay 12.  Also, he wants a quick sale, at 7 gold each I will sell in an hour where as for 12 each, I may have to wait a day or two, or more and I need the money now,,,,,,there is your why question.  Also the market never may be as high as 12 again,,,people start to flood the market, cause they are selling for so high and everyone starts to undercut everyone and that root will never see 12 again,,,on the flip side you are selling them for 12 how do you know they wont pay 15? ...... </blockquote><p> Ok, that sounds like a reasonable "why", especially for people that don't know the usual price of an item.</p><p>I disagree with the 12g, I know that market very well and it's been pretty steady for months. However, I see your point that someone else may not know the market as well and set his/her price based on such thoughts.</p>

Illmarr
02-26-2007, 04:57 PM
<cite>ratman22 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Please define "real player". So, do you really arbitrarily set your broker prices based on some WAG of what this mythical "real player" will have in funds? How do you know you're even remotely close to reality with such guesses?</p><p>Thanks to everyone, btw, on the psychoanalysis and insults in reply to a forum question. </p></blockquote><p> Well, "real player" in this case I think is someone that is playing a level appropriate character without twinking.</p><p>Unfortunately, I sure as heck hope that the broker is the last place this type of person goes to get geared up, since the broker is priced to sell to people outfitting twinks.</p><p>New people. Harvest your own rares and then ask in your crafting channel for someone to turn them into something for you to use.</p>

Amytheyst
02-26-2007, 04:58 PM
<cite>Natak wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] Bayle wrote: <blockquote>Again, look at what a real player at that tier has for monetary resources, then ask yourself what is reasonable. A level 10 player wont have 12 gold to drop on a single rare. Some people have a conscience? </blockquote>Conscience really shouldn't play a part in selling / buying. Common sense should however. As you state, a typical player at that tier probably won't have 10-12 gold to spend on a single raw that will produce one item, which they will then have to sell for 12-14g, again a price that a player of that range probably won't have (unless he has alts). I know if i pooled all my alts money and resources together i would have about 30-40 plat, and that is because i spend stuff as soon as i get it. Over my time here, i have probably spent around 100 - 150 plat, and many others have spent much more. I am a fairly casual player, so don't have a problem Heck, I even remove stuff off of my broker and sell it to the NPC merchant if it doesn't move quick enough... Talk about a bath! (according to the Orig Poster). However if somethng has been on my broker for 2 weeks at the lowest possible price, chances are no one is really interested in that item. </blockquote>Youre forgetting that not everyone HAS alts. A very viable market is players "at" the expected level of monetary aqquisition, with the added benefit of repeat business as they progress through the tiers at "normal" mechanics pacing. The "price war" market on the broker is always going to be there, (twinks) but not everyone plays, or submits to that system either. The OP may be merely seeing the existence of what I described.

Natak
02-26-2007, 05:04 PM
[email protected] Bayle wrote: <blockquote><cite>Natak wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] Bayle wrote: <blockquote>Again, look at what a real player at that tier has for monetary resources, then ask yourself what is reasonable. A level 10 player wont have 12 gold to drop on a single rare. Some people have a conscience? </blockquote>Conscience really shouldn't play a part in selling / buying. Common sense should however. As you state, a typical player at that tier probably won't have 10-12 gold to spend on a single raw that will produce one item, which they will then have to sell for 12-14g, again a price that a player of that range probably won't have (unless he has alts). I know if i pooled all my alts money and resources together i would have about 30-40 plat, and that is because i spend stuff as soon as i get it. Over my time here, i have probably spent around 100 - 150 plat, and many others have spent much more. I am a fairly casual player, so don't have a problem Heck, I even remove stuff off of my broker and sell it to the NPC merchant if it doesn't move quick enough... Talk about a bath! (according to the Orig Poster). However if somethng has been on my broker for 2 weeks at the lowest possible price, chances are no one is really interested in that item. </blockquote>Youre forgetting that not everyone HAS alts. A very viable market is players "at" the expected level of monetary aqquisition, with the added benefit of repeat business as they progress through the tiers at "normal" mechanics pacing. The "price war" market on the broker is always going to be there, (twinks) but not everyone plays, or submits to that system either. The OP may be merely seeing the existence of what I described. </blockquote>No, I didn't. That is why i said " common sense" should be used. If you had read, or rather if I had communicated it properly, you would see that I switched topics on the second and third paragraphs. The first was the one replying to your statement about conscience dictating prices (rarely a good idea)

Lord_Quaymar
02-26-2007, 05:04 PM
<cite>ratman22 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I don't get this at all. I see this all the time and it's <b>driving me nuts!</b></p><p>Here is a sample scenario:</p><p>I usually sell sisal roots for around 12g and have sold many of them around this price. It's a good, stable market price. Then, this happens:</p><p>Someone will have up some sisal roots for 12g. I'll put up my sisal roots for 11g 95s. Someone else will put up their's for 11g 85s. Then, someone will put up his/her sisal roots for 7g, and everyone selling their's afterwards tries to go below those prices. So, the person who did the big skip from 11g 85s to 7g just lowered the market price for sisal roots by 4g for everyone. <b>Why, oh why? This just hurts everyone, including this person!</b></p><p>People were buying at 12g, so why go so much lower? If you want to go lower than the lowest currently listed item, just go for 11g 75s or something like that. <b>I just don't get it!</b> Do these people just not want to make money? Are they just stupid? Do they not want to make money to buy ridiculously expensive spells, weapons, armor, etc.?</p></blockquote>Just take advantage of the morons. Buy up all the roots at 7g and under and resell em for the FMV of 12g. I do this all the time and I make a fortune doing it. I really like it when someone thinks they will outdo me by continually placing them for the same rediculously low price but I will always win because they will grow tired of farming them LONG before I grow tired of clicking "Buy Item" for free money lol.

Amytheyst
02-26-2007, 05:05 PM
<cite>ratman22 wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] Bayle wrote: <blockquote><cite>ratman22 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ratman22 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Siclone wrote:</cite><blockquote>ratman22 wrote: <p>welcome to economics 101...its called supply and demand.  the only one it hurts by dropping the price is the seller.  your trying to hurt the players looking for root by charging more then they are worth.</p><p>Personally I love to undercut guys like you trying to rip people off.  I did not work hard getting roots and loot so I just take what the price someone is willing to pay and be happy with it.  </p></blockquote><p><b><u>Uh, sorry, I don't get this at all</u></b>. The rules of supply and demand actually cause most sellers to sell items at the highest price they can get away with, meaning, the highest price at which the seller still sells a certain quantity of the item being sold. Do you really think GM wouldn't raise car prices by 20% if people would still buy just as many?</p><p>So, if you could sell roots for 3s each (I and many others have sold thousands at this price, so I don't think it's outrageously high), but are selling them at 1s each just to undercut "guys like me", you are a) hurting me, but also b) hurting yourself, because you are costing yourself 2s for each root.</p><p>Again, the reason I feel the need to keep prices resonably high, is because I need to buy stuff myself. I'm not doing this to "rip people off". Have you seen the prices for some spells even for a 20s and 30s character? I would give stuff away if I didn't have to buy stuff myself.</p></blockquote><p>I know you dont as proven with this post and your orgianal post.  You dont get to set the price, got it? the economy does, how much supply and how much demand for that supply and what people are willing to pay, set it,,,,you,,,,dont.  If I want to charge 4 gold lower to you to entice poeple in buying my root instead of harvesting, I will and do.  Just cause you sold roots for 12 gold yesterday, does not mean the price for roots today is 12 gold.</p></blockquote>I understand and agree with this. However, this does not answer my original question: why did you set the price at 4g if you could instead sell the item just as easily at 12g? <b>That</b> is my question. not <b>that</b> it happens, but <b>why</b> does it happen? </blockquote>Again, look at what a real player at that tier has for monetary resources, then ask yourself what is reasonable. A level 10 player wont have 12 gold to drop on a single rare. Some people have a conscience? </blockquote><p>Please define "real player". So, do you really arbitrarily set your broker prices based on some WAG of what this mythical "real player" will have in funds? How do you know you're even remotely close to reality with such guesses?</p><p>Thanks to everyone, btw, on the psychoanalysis and insults in reply to a forum question. </p></blockquote> Trust me, if I sought to insult you, you'd know it. I just explained what you are seeing. Some people have many years of market experience, and also adventure "by the book". (clue: start with a fresh account, as a new player and remember what it was like to work your way up using non twink methods for aqquisition). Use a calculator. Determine profit percentages over vendor sellback. Sellbacks ARE indicative of mechanics, by design. /yawn. 12g is what, a 11,000 percent markup? (example, not actual, if someone wants to log in and chack it'd be awsome) /shrug

dartie
02-26-2007, 05:06 PM
<blockquote>ratman22 wrote: <ul><li>Someone will have up some sisal roots for 12g. I'll put up my sisal roots for 11g 95s</li></ul>You chose to undercut someone by a miniscule amount. It is more insulting to do this than by a larger amount, in a lot of peoples eyes. Still, it is YOUR choice. How would you feel if someone complained about YOU undercutting them? </blockquote><p>Different people are driven nuts by different things.  I am annoyed when I see people doing precisely what the OP suggests--undercutting by some trivial amount.  If I see a guy charging 10 gp for a sisal root and another one charging 9gp and 99 silver and 99 copper , I will gladly pay the extra copper to the one charging 10 gp.  I see the undercutter as the coattail-riding villain in this scenario (though I'll echo the sentiments of those who have already said that the undercutter has a right to undercut by however small a margin he likes).  </p><p>To answer the original OP's question about WHY this happens, I'll be happy to explain why I often sell stuff for 30% - 50% less than what appears to  be the going price on the broker:</p><p>If I see 6 sellers all listing sisal roots for 11 to 12 gp, I put mine on for 7 gp not because I'm trying to influence the market one way or another, but because I want to get rid of it quickly.  Maybe I need the cash right away, but it's mre likely that I need the space in my sales display for something else.  (Have you never found yourself after a long gaming session with far more junk to get rid of than sales slots to put it in?  I sometimes price stuff way low just so I can be reasonably sure to sell it in the time that it takes me to reorganize my bags while standing at the broker so I can dump more junk on the broker.)  </p>

Natak
02-26-2007, 05:09 PM
<cite>Lord_Quaymar wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just take advantage of the morons. Buy up all the roots at 7g and under and resell em for the FMV of 12g. I do this all the time and I make a fortune doing it. I really like it when someone thinks they will outdo me by continually placing them for the same rediculously low price but I will always win because they will grow tired of farming them LONG before I grow tired of clicking "Buy Item" for free money lol. </blockquote>Win? Who wins? Both of you really. Unless the person states that is why they are doing it. The person asking for the lower prices gets the lower price, and you get a profit. Win/win as stated before. Now if they do it on purpose and have stated that they are doing it to try to drive your prices lower then yes, you win (and it would be silly). But I know I don't price lower out of some self imposed rightiousness. I price them low in hopes that someone, anyone will buy them. . . including people like you who resell them. Once it leave my inventory and I get my money, i don't care what you do with it. I got my money, and will spend it on what I want. You got your item, and more inventory to make more money. /shrug

ratman22
02-26-2007, 05:17 PM
dartie wrote: <blockquote>Different people are driven nuts by different things.  I am annoyed when I see people doing precisely what the OP suggests--undercutting by some trivial amount.  If I see a guy charging 10 gp for a sisal root and another one charging 9gp and 99 silver and 99 copper , I will gladly pay the extra copper to the one charging 10 gp.  I see the undercutter as the coattail-riding villain in this scenario (though I'll echo the sentiments of those who have already said that the undercutter has a right to undercut by however small a margin he likes). </blockquote><p>You, and several others that have stated this, have a good point, I should match other sellers in my price range instead of undercutting them, even by a small amount. Depending on the actual selling scenario, I have done this.</p><p>The unfortunate reality is that for all the people doing this, others will not.</p><p>It's the same with the replies suggesting that I'm "ripping people off". The reality is that even if I lower my prices, the prices of the things I want/need to buy are still going to be very high and I need to earn money to be able to afford them.</p>

ratman22
02-26-2007, 05:20 PM
<cite>Lord_Quaymar wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just take advantage of the morons. Buy up all the roots at 7g and under and resell em for the FMV of 12g. I do this all the time and I make a fortune doing it. I really like it when someone thinks they will outdo me by continually placing them for the same rediculously low price but I will always win because they will grow tired of farming them LONG before I grow tired of clicking "Buy Item" for free money lol. </blockquote> Well, I do. I was just curious as to why this would continuously happen. Oh well, it's just like the people selling items below vendor prices - this is almost impossible to do accidentally now, but I see it all the time. It's like having my own sweat shop.

Natak
02-26-2007, 05:21 PM
<cite>ratman22 wrote:</cite><blockquote>dartie wrote: <p>You, and several others that have stated this, have a good point, I should match other sellers in my price range instead of undercutting them, even by a small amount. Depending on the actual selling scenario, I have done this.</p><p>The unfortunate reality is that for all the people doing this, others will not.</p><p>It's the same with the replies suggesting that I'm "ripping people off". The reality is that even if I lower my prices, the prices of the things I want/need to buy are still going to be very high and I need to earn money to be able to afford them.</p></blockquote>Ummm.. why match them. Sell for whatever you feel like, and whatever YOU feel is a fair price. That is the beauty of a free market. YOU as the seller can choose to price your goods at any price you feel the market will bear. If it doesn't sell, YOU can choose to lower the price by as much or as little as you want. The is what grinds some people. The feeling that others are trying to dictate what they will sell the item for. As for your ascertation... Cost of a finished item is based on the cost of raws and fuels, plus a small mark up for what the seller feels is the value of his time. If raws cost less, the items will eventually cost less. It is never an instant thing, but rather a ripple effect.

Lord_Quaymar
02-26-2007, 05:43 PM
[email protected] Bayle wrote: <blockquote>Again, look at what a real player at that tier has for monetary resources, then ask yourself what is reasonable. A level 10 player wont have 12 gold to drop on a single rare. Some people have a conscience? </blockquote> Not true at all. Any player with half a clue in today's economy can just as easily sell rares and other items that they DON'T need for the same prices. Your assumption is completely false.

Gorpier
02-26-2007, 05:50 PM
sorry.  removed my post as I see no reason to re-state what someone said before me. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  I learn a lesson in reading the whole post before posting (01/100)

thedu
02-26-2007, 05:59 PM
Argh! Why must a post like this be put up every month?

MaryJane666
02-26-2007, 06:09 PM
<cite>Lord_Quaymar wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] Bayle wrote: <blockquote>Again, look at what a real player at that tier has for monetary resources, then ask yourself what is reasonable. A level 10 player wont have 12 gold to drop on a single rare. Some people have a conscience? </blockquote> Not true at all. Any player with half a clue in today's economy can just as easily sell rares and other items that they DON'T need for the same prices. Your assumption is completely false.</blockquote> Actually, thats exactly what I do.  I think about the lvl/tier of the item and then price accordingly.  I refuse to charge 20-30g for a master that is only lvl 15, or charge 15-20g for an adept that is only lvl 30.   It's not going to happen.  I think of the players on their first toon at that lvl and price for them.  If someone buys it up...well that sucks but at least I did the right thing.  Sometimes it isn't just about how much money you make, but being fair and doing the right thing.  If you really want to make money though, make a provisioner everyone needs food/drink and even pricing the lowest on the broker you can still make lots of money.  Hey and if everyone started pricing competively hell maybe the stuff everyone else is trying to buy will go down in price too<img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Blackgold
02-26-2007, 06:15 PM
<cite>ratman22 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lord_Quaymar wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just take advantage of the morons. Buy up all the roots at 7g and under and resell em for the FMV of 12g. I do this all the time and I make a fortune doing it. I really like it when someone thinks they will outdo me by continually placing them for the same rediculously low price but I will always win because they will grow tired of farming them LONG before I grow tired of clicking "Buy Item" for free money lol. </blockquote> Well, I do. I was just curious as to why this would continuously happen. Oh well, it's just like the people selling items below vendor prices - this is almost impossible to do accidentally now, but I see it all the time. It's like having my own sweat shop.</blockquote> I think your answer lies in your own words. You say that this process happens "repeatedly" and "continuously" yet you still hold on to the notion that 12g is the market price.

Lord_Quaymar
02-26-2007, 06:15 PM
[email protected] DLere wrote: <blockquote><cite>Lord_Quaymar wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] Bayle wrote: <blockquote>Again, look at what a real player at that tier has for monetary resources, then ask yourself what is reasonable. A level 10 player wont have 12 gold to drop on a single rare. Some people have a conscience? </blockquote> Not true at all. Any player with half a clue in today's economy can just as easily sell rares and other items that they DON'T need for the same prices. Your assumption is completely false.</blockquote> Actually, thats exactly what I do.  I think about the lvl/tier of the item and then price accordingly.  I refuse to charge 20-30g for a master that is only lvl 15, or charge 15-20g for an adept that is only lvl 30.   It's not going to happen.  I think of the players on their first toon at that lvl and price for them.  If someone buys it up...well that sucks but at least I did the right thing.  Sometimes it isn't just about how much money you make, but being fair and doing the right thing.  If you really want to make money though, make a provisioner everyone needs food/drink and even pricing the lowest on the broker you can still make lots of money.  Hey and if everyone started pricing competively hell maybe the stuff everyone else is trying to buy will go down in price too<img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote><p>But if 10 other people are selling that Master for 20-30g, it is you that is wrong and it is YOU that is doing harm not only to yourself but to the people playing their first toon too. How? You devalue the market and, thanks to you, that same newbie who just got a Master that he/she does NOT need cannot sell it for 20-30g as they should be able to because you have screwed up the market by underpricing. Underpricing out of some misguided self righteousness can be just as harmful as overpricing.</p><p>I had 10p by level 20 on my "first toon" so the assumption that they do not have the money is completely false. </p>

MaryJane666
02-26-2007, 06:25 PM
<p>I'm not saying 10 other people.  I'm sorry for not being more clear and specific about the situation I was talking about.  I'm talking about there being only one or two other people with the item, and that being over priced at say a plat (just to use an extreme) for a lvl 20 master.  I'm not going to charge 99g or 95g for that same master.  If there are several people selling the same item THEN I stay close to the price listed because that shows that most people think that is fair.  But if there is only one or two people selling the item for an insane amount of money for the lvl.  I'm going to sell mine for less.  And it's great that you had so much plat at a low lvl.  I didn't.   If I found something reasonably priced I was extatic.  Please don't tell me about "misguided self righteousness"  All I said was what I do.  I wasn't being self rightous.  You can do whatever the hell you want.  You said that people don't do it, so I just pointed out that some people do look at the lvl and thing about the people who are just starting out.  Don't get mean and nasty please.</p><p>**edited for spelling</p>

Amytheyst
02-26-2007, 06:29 PM
<cite>Lord_Quaymar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ratman22 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I don't get this at all. I see this all the time and it's <b>driving me nuts!</b></p><p>Here is a sample scenario:</p><p>I usually sell sisal roots for around 12g and have sold many of them around this price. It's a good, stable market price. Then, this happens:</p><p>Someone will have up some sisal roots for 12g. I'll put up my sisal roots for 11g 95s. Someone else will put up their's for 11g 85s. Then, someone will put up his/her sisal roots for 7g, and everyone selling their's afterwards tries to go below those prices. So, the person who did the big skip from 11g 85s to 7g just lowered the market price for sisal roots by 4g for everyone. <b>Why, oh why? This just hurts everyone, including this person!</b></p><p>People were buying at 12g, so why go so much lower? If you want to go lower than the lowest currently listed item, just go for 11g 75s or something like that. <b>I just don't get it!</b> Do these people just not want to make money? Are they just stupid? Do they not want to make money to buy ridiculously expensive spells, weapons, armor, etc.?</p></blockquote>Just take advantage of the morons. Buy up all the roots at 7g and under and resell em for the FMV of 12g. I do this all the time and I make a fortune doing it. I really like it when someone thinks they will outdo me by continually placing them for the same rediculously low price but I will always win because they will grow tired of farming them LONG before I grow tired of clicking "Buy Item" for free money lol. </blockquote>I still own multiple houses in both Qey and Freeport, with newer aqq's in Fay, so Im profiting too. I also enjoy the friendships Ive amassed within the game, alot of them "customers". Other people ar ein this strictly for "profit". (ie exchange servers). Different strokes for different follks.

Amytheyst
02-26-2007, 06:32 PM
<cite>Lord_Quaymar wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] DLere wrote: <blockquote><cite>Lord_Quaymar wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] Bayle wrote: <blockquote>Again, look at what a real player at that tier has for monetary resources, then ask yourself what is reasonable. A level 10 player wont have 12 gold to drop on a single rare. Some people have a conscience? </blockquote> Not true at all. Any player with half a clue in today's economy can just as easily sell rares and other items that they DON'T need for the same prices. Your assumption is completely false.</blockquote> Actually, thats exactly what I do.  I think about the lvl/tier of the item and then price accordingly.  I refuse to charge 20-30g for a master that is only lvl 15, or charge 15-20g for an adept that is only lvl 30.   It's not going to happen.  I think of the players on their first toon at that lvl and price for them.  If someone buys it up...well that sucks but at least I did the right thing.  Sometimes it isn't just about how much money you make, but being fair and doing the right thing.  If you really want to make money though, make a provisioner everyone needs food/drink and even pricing the lowest on the broker you can still make lots of money.  Hey and if everyone started pricing competively hell maybe the stuff everyone else is trying to buy will go down in price too<img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote><p>But if 10 other people are selling that Master for 20-30g, it is you that is wrong and it is YOU that is doing harm not only to yourself but to the people playing their first toon too. How? You devalue the market and, thanks to you, that same newbie who just got a Master that he/she does NOT need cannot sell it for 20-30g as they should be able to because you have screwed up the market by underpricing. Underpricing out of some misguided self righteousness can be just as harmful as overpricing.</p><p>I had 10p by level 20 on my "first toon" so the assumption that they do not have the money is completely false. </p></blockquote>Sure. Are we talking exchange servers here? "F" the exchange servers, the market there is for [insert four letter explatives lazy pathet...] I stand firm that if *I* sell for a price that suits me, feel good about it, no [Removed for Content] and moaning by you or anyone else could possibly make me think otherwise. Im not the one upset at my prices. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> You forget that it may be part of MY game TO [Removed for Content] off the high pricers. Nuff said.  

Lord_Quaymar
02-26-2007, 06:36 PM
[email protected] DLere wrote: <blockquote><p>I'm not saying 10 other people.  I'm sorry for not being more clear and specific about the situation I was talking about.  I'm talking about there being only one or two other people with the item, and that being over priced at say a plat (just to use an extreme) for a lvl 20 master.  I'm not going to charge 99g or 95g for that same master.  If there are several people selling the same item THEN I stay close to the price listed because that shows that most people think that is fair.  But if there is only one or two people selling the item for an insane amount of money for the lvl.  I'm going to sell mine for less.  And it's great that you had so much plat at a low lvl.  I didn't.   If I found something reasonably priced I was extatic.  Please don't tell me about "misguided self righteousness"  All I said was what I do.  I wasn't being self rightous.  You can do whatever the hell you want.  You said that people don't do it, so I just pointed out that some people do look at the lvl and thing about the people who are just starting out.  Don't get mean and nasty please.</p><p>**edited for spelling</p></blockquote><p>Maybe you didn't have 10p by level 20 because you sell stuff for too little? Don't forget....insane prices are largely a matter of opinion. I made the "self righteousness" comment because you claim to price stuff very low because you are thinking of others...this is misguided and not a good way to go about things. If something is overpriced, it won't sell...simple. Nobody is forced to buy anything in this game so the buyers will tell you what the appropriate price is.</p><p>I have no intent on being mean and nasty. I am just blunt and direct...it's easy to confuse that for mean and nasty I guess. </p>

hobi
02-26-2007, 06:38 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><p>Here's an idea...  Buy them out, and repost at ~12g.</p></blockquote><p> funny you should mention this i know someone on my server that actually will do this <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p><p>and to be honest i have been guilty of it from time to time also</p>

Lord_Quaymar
02-26-2007, 06:41 PM
[email protected] Bayle wrote: <blockquote> I stand firm that if *I* sell for a price that suits me, feel good about it, no [Removed for Content] and moaning by you or anyone else could possibly make me think otherwise. Im not the one upset at my prices. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> You forget that it may be part of MY game TO [Removed for Content] off the high pricers. Nuff said.   </blockquote><p> You would never [Removed for Content] me off. I LOVE people like you. You give me free money so...PLEASE....keep selling too low. I like having people out there doing my grunt work for me. You see....I pay you a pittance for the goods and make a fortune reselling it...thanks!</p><p>Oh...and before you claim to run me out of money....never gonna happen. You will grow bored and tired of the farming LONG before I even come close to running out of money. Not to mention the fact that all of my eggs aren't in one basket and I have tons of cash flowing in from other sources as well.</p><p>So...yeah...go ahead and keep [Removed for Content] me off....LOL!</p>

Jaggid
02-26-2007, 06:51 PM
<p>I try to sell at the price everyone else is, but after time if they stuff doesn't sell or people are undercuting, I take a lose to unload the stuff fast.</p><p>You can buy them out and relist it.</p>

Ealthina
02-26-2007, 06:52 PM
Yet another person who needs to head down to their local Community College, or, more likely in this case highschool and take two classes.  Economic Fundementals 101 and Supply Side Economics and Capatalism 102.  Their a hoot.

Illmarr
02-26-2007, 06:54 PM
<cite>Lord_Quaymar wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] Bayle wrote: <blockquote> I stand firm that if *I* sell for a price that suits me, feel good about it, no [Removed for Content] and moaning by you or anyone else could possibly make me think otherwise. Im not the one upset at my prices. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> You forget that it may be part of MY game TO [Removed for Content] off the high pricers. Nuff said.   </blockquote><p> You would never [Removed for Content] me off. I LOVE people like you. You give me free money so...PLEASE....keep selling too low. I like having people out there doing my grunt work for me. You see....I pay you a pittance for the goods and make a fortune reselling it...thanks!</p><p>Oh...and before you claim to run me out of money....never gonna happen. You will grow bored and tired of the farming LONG before I even come close to running out of money. Not to mention the fact that all of my eggs aren't in one basket and I have tons of cash flowing in from other sources as well.</p><p>So...yeah...go ahead and keep [Removed for Content] me off....LOL!</p></blockquote><p>Luckily Mycha isn't on Blackburrow, but I'm sure every server has it's Daddy Warbucks that will always laugh at people that play using a different set of principles.</p><p>Most people don't have the same gaming philosophy as you do I imagine from the volume of posts that disagree with you on most every topic on these forums. Yes, you have acheived close to the max that a player can without raiding, and have sold a buttload of plat worth of stuff. Grats to you. Because it worked for you does not mean it will work as a playstyle for anyone else.</p><p>I wish you well</p>

Illmarr
02-26-2007, 06:55 PM
<cite>Ealthina wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yet another person who needs to head down to their local Community College, or, more likely in this case highschool and take two classes.  Economic Fundementals 101 and Supply Side Economics and Capatalism 102.  Their a hoot.</blockquote> Yet another person that needs Remedial Spelling. They're a hoot <img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 

Jai1
02-26-2007, 06:56 PM
<p>I sort of think that crafters who price stuff on the broker for little or no margin will eventually become disinterested in the whole deal.  I realize that some people craft for crafting sake but I really do it to make money.  I enjoy being about to max out my mains(Necro masters and berzerker gear) and gear up my other alts.  They are all fun to play. </p><p>I used to price my stuff lower than everyone and when there were relatively few crafters making rares in my markets, I would undercut everyone.  People tended to seem to go with my price and that's fine with me.</p><p>Nowadays, everyone is crafting and there are some people that put up rare items extremely low.  I see EQ2 as providing limited resources.  I mean, you only get so much with time.  You can put a lot more time into it and get more or you can try to get the most for what you have.  I don't really market my stuff as the cheapest.  I have limited time to play and I'd rather sell to twinks.  Twinks buy Steel armor and not 'New Players'.</p><p>I have a general idea of what profit I want to make and depending on the supply at the time(pages of stuff means it's not selling) I will price either low or high.  I have a general belief that everything I price eventually sells because I think I'm reasonable.  I also probably got the rare cheap and price is average.</p><p>You can't always find cheap rares to compete with 'priced to move' items.  I tend to set a price and adjust it if say Acrylia goes to 1.25 plat.  I can't replace the rare selling the item for 1.35p which seems reasonable so I sell it for 1.60.  I just so happens I got the rares for 70g back when they were lower.  Sometimes it pays to stockpile on those rares that bottom out.</p>

Jaggid
02-26-2007, 06:57 PM
<cite>Ealthina wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yet another person who needs to head down to their local Community College, or, more likely in this case highschool and take two classes.  Economic Fundementals 101 and Supply Side Economics and Capatalism 102.  Their a hoot.</blockquote><p> ah yes supply and demand, the supply goes up, the price goes down.</p><p>Now to back to your school and go to some parties with the popular kids and get drunk, then apply human feelings and nature + drunk to the equation....supply/demand are out the window. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Yes people drink and play.</p>

Ealthina
02-26-2007, 06:59 PM
<p>I would not be the happy person I am today with out giving you grammar former German Facist's party members something to whine about.</p><p>Heh had to wrod that oddly because German facist is on the no no list.</p>

Amytheyst
02-26-2007, 07:03 PM
<cite>Lord_Quaymar wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] Bayle wrote: <blockquote> I stand firm that if *I* sell for a price that suits me, feel good about it, no [Removed for Content] and moaning by you or anyone else could possibly make me think otherwise. Im not the one upset at my prices. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> You forget that it may be part of MY game TO [Removed for Content] off the high pricers. Nuff said.   </blockquote><p> You would never [Removed for Content] me off. I LOVE people like you. You give me free money so...PLEASE....keep selling too low. I like having people out there doing my grunt work for me. You see....I pay you a pittance for the goods and make a fortune reselling it...thanks!</p><p>Oh...and before you claim to run me out of money....never gonna happen. You will grow bored and tired of the farming LONG before I even come close to running out of money. Not to mention the fact that all of my eggs aren't in one basket and I have tons of cash flowing in from other sources as well.</p><p>So...yeah...go ahead and keep [Removed for Content] me off....LOL!</p></blockquote> See, the above merely proves that many people play the game for many different reasons. I cant fathom perceived "wealth" as being an achievment of any kind, especially in a game. The commraderie I play for supercedes any measure of "wealth" when looking at the coin purse. I'm not the red bug eyed toon from Roger Rabbit screaming at the top of my lungs flaunting some percieved wealth, Im just a happy person at the end of the day. I'm also not viewed as a piece of trash either, so we both win our games dont we? They still nuked interdependency and the spirit shards, btw.

DeathRider69
02-26-2007, 07:21 PM
I must say that this is a very interesting discussion and does show the various levels of education and real-world business experience.  I understand both side of the disucssion but do want to try to explain the situation as the OP requested, at least as best I can. They way I see it, the OP is talking about past sales and what they "could" get for the product versus what someone has determined that they will get by pricing cheaper than another.  From my year+ of playing and selling, I see free market economics at work all the time.  Say I see that someone has tussah roots up for 30s and I decide that will go harvest some for sale (I am known to take 6 empty 32-slot boxes out to harvest and not come back till full of "sellable" items).  So now I come back and have say 2k worth of tussah roots.  Yep the ones at 30s are still out there, so I know that either crafters that buy their raws are not needing tussah roots, or 30s is too high.  So I can list for 30s, but I may have 40 slots taken while waiting on the sales.  Conversely I can get gold now by pricing aggressively.  If I price at 15s and sell out, then I know that I may have been too low in pricing.  If I price at 25s and still have any listed the next day, then I know I was too high in the pricing, and lower it accordingly.  So I tie up 40 slots on the broker by listing at 30s to make 6p, but it will take up to a week or I can sell at 15s, make 3p, but sell out in a day.  So if I am selling items as fast as I can stock them, then in the week I took to make 6p 30s I can make 21p using the same 40 slots. It works in the real work too.  If store A sells steak at $4.99/lb and store B decides to sell the same steak at $4.00/lb, people will go to store B to to buy the product.  Providing B can keep the products on the shelf, store A now has a problem.  They have a time-sensitive product that is not selling with more product waiting on shelf-space.  They can either lower their price to $4.00/lb or try to wait out B.  The problem is that if B has enough product, then A will have to really cut prices to move their product before it is unsellable.   Thus to clear their product, they cut the price to $3.00/lb until all of the current inventory that will spoil is sold out.  Now enters the issue of supply and demand.  A is not selling their steaks that fast and thus has not ordered more from their supplier.  B is ordering a lot from their supplier at price that allows for them to make $X at $4.00/lb.  B's supplier sees their inventory going down and tells B that their next order is going to cost more.  Either B raises the price or orders less product.  If the price is increased, those that bought at $4.00/lb may not buy at $4.25/lb. So B sells less and thus orders less. Conversely if B still sells at $4.00/lb they will have to buy less as their price went up.  Either way B starts selling out of the product.  So now people have to go to A to get the steak.  A sees that they are selling a lot of product or even selling out.  Thus they raise their prices back up to $4.99 or even $5.99 to make back their money.  So basically when there is a good supply at a price lower than a "normal" price, people will buy those products before the higher priced ones.  Thus to sell your products you have to price lower than a competitor or keep the higher price and wait on the demand to outpace the supply.  At the lower price you make the money now and can list something else.   At the higher price you tie up a sales slot, but at some point will sell the product when the lower priced ones are sold out. Product sales and marketing strategies always depend on supply and demand for the products.  Another good in-game example is Master versus Adept III.   Say I want to upgrade my 63 necro's tank pet.  If there is a master listed at 30p but I can get the rare for the Adept III for 1p, I am gonna go buy the rare and make the Adept III.   But if someone is selling the Master for 50g I am gonna jump all over it.  Sure the seller could have gotten 29p 50g more, <i>eventually</i>, they have 50g now and a slot free to sell something else.  If I have a product that has value to me, say an Ebon cluster, I am going to put it up for sale for what I think someone desperate enough would pay for it.  If it sells, great if not, then I have it when I need it.  If it is something I have plenty of in the bank, then I will price it to sell quickly for a little cash.   I know that I had sissal root for 15g on the broker for 2 weeks.  At that point I had a level 61 Wizard Master I wanted to sell but no free slots.  Thus I lowered the price to 5g as well as other items.  When I checked back those items sold.  They were less than what I could have eventually gotten, but as a result of freeing that slot, I got 10p for the master within 5 minutes of listing it.

sayitaintso
02-26-2007, 07:24 PM
<cite>ratman22 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I don't get this at all. I see this all the time and it's <b>driving me nuts!</b></p><p>Here is a sample scenario:</p><p>I usually sell sisal roots for around 12g and have sold many of them around this price. It's a good, stable market price. Then, this happens:</p><p>Someone will have up some sisal roots for 12g. I'll put up my sisal roots for 11g 95s. Someone else will put up their's for 11g 85s. Then, someone will put up his/her sisal roots for 7g, and everyone selling their's afterwards tries to go below those prices. So, the person who did the big skip from 11g 85s to 7g just lowered the market price for sisal roots by 4g for everyone. <b>Why, oh why? This just hurts everyone, including this person!</b></p><p>People were buying at 12g, so why go so much lower? If you want to go lower than the lowest currently listed item, just go for 11g 75s or something like that. <b>I just don't get it!</b> Do these people just not want to make money? Are they just stupid? Do they not want to make money to buy ridiculously expensive spells, weapons, armor, etc.?</p></blockquote>1) it's called capitalism, get over it 2) with the population getting smaller on some servers, there are fewer and fewer buyers...(just speculation) 3) 12g for a root is insane 4) the economy in EQ2 has never been balanced or well thought out..Every time it looks like the economy was stabilizing, SOE goes and does something like raise broker fees or institute things like Diety sacrifice and transmuting that made prices soar....

Zmobie
02-26-2007, 07:26 PM
If I am placing something on the broker, and there is 1-3 others on there, I tend to price mine about 1 unit lower in price. If they are for sale for 3 gold, I'll place mine at 2 gold. If they are 10 silver, I'll price mine at 9 silver, and so on. If there are a LOT of items up for sale, all withing a tiny increment of each other, say  1 each @ 10 gold, 9g99s, 9g98s, 9g97s..etc... I will price mine signifigantly below it, for instance 8 gold, or perhaps even 5. Why? Because I want to sell it. I make my cash by high turnover. Things that sit in my boxes waiting to be sold at a higher value just take up valuable space. If something has been in the box at a given price, even when that price is the lowest on the market, I start slashing the price. "A bird in hand is worth two in the bush." When I see a ton of items on the broker, and see that they are all playing the "1 copper less" or "1 silver less" game, I know there isn't a huge demand for that item. I want the next person who wants to buy that item to give me their coin, even if that means I get less for it than I could if I wanted to wait it out. Certain items, I do price high, and keep high, those that I know are inherently worth more than the going rate on the broker. High-end masters, good Legendary armor, rare collection items. In this case, I'll wait and take the higher profit. Other items, I price at ridiculous prices, that I *know* are ridiculous. Usually I do this for masters for classes that I have an alt in,  but the alt is too low to use it. Basically, if someone wants it bad enough to pay a ridicullous sum for it, no skin off my back. I'll take the extra coin, and deal with only having an Ad3 of that spell. If no one is dumb/desperate/coin-rich enough to buy it by the time my alt can use the spell, then hey, my alt gets a nice spell. The thing I don't understand about the EQ2 market is how the raws used to make Ad3s consistently sell for more than the spell the make.  Recently, my guild had me make a bunch of T7 Ad3s, in order to get the dusts to make rare potions. I had a couple of my own rares lying around, so made up a coupld of my own, to help out with the dust situation.  If I get an acrylia, and put it on the broker for 1 plat (made up value, been a while since I've priced them), I guarantee it's gone before I log on the next morning. If I use that to make the fastest-selling Ad3 spell I know (Necro pets), and then pu t the Ad3 on the broker, it will sit there for wee ks, before someone finally buys it when I mark it  down to 80G. I saw this consistantly the whole time I was levelling up my Sage. The spells themselves would NEVER sell until they were much cheaper than the rare used to make it. People are weird. --Plague

Mawie
02-26-2007, 07:32 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote> 1) it's called capitalism, get over it 2) with the population getting smaller on some servers, there are fewer and fewer buyers...(just speculation) 3) 12g for a root is insane 4) the economy in EQ2 has never been balanced or well thought out..Every time it looks like the economy was stabilizing, SOE goes and does something like raise broker fees or institute things like Diety sacrifice and transmuting that made prices soar.... </blockquote> Wow. Number one is really rude. Everyone is entitled to their opinions without being told to "get over it." Number two also works the other way. Sure there are less buyers, but there are also less sellers at the same time. Number three is purely an opinion. I agree with it, but it is an opinion. Oh, and it was a hypothetical situation given by the OP. S/he never said it was the real figure. However, going to number four, prices soared for the VERY REASON you just told someone to get over... capitalism exists on supply and demand. More people need the goods, more items are not being put on the broker, so the prices go up.

Leafbringer
02-26-2007, 08:04 PM
I think the main problem you're dealing with is that EQ2 isn't full of sales-savvy people.  Yeah you'll have five or six people selling an item around, say 10g, suddenly a 13 year old shows up and without even looking at other prices puts his same item up for 1g.  /shrug It happens. You asked if people are stupid and in some cases the simple answer there is yes.

Sotaudi
02-26-2007, 08:16 PM
<p>These discussions are always amusing because people throw around market economic terms without regard for their actual meaning.  For instance, the OP used the expression, "It's a good, stable market price" in reference to his 12g price.  Yet the very essence of a market economy is that there is no such thing as a "stable market price."  Prices fluctuate on a number of factors affecting the market participants, ranging from the willingness of people to take a loss selling an item to the willingness of people to take a bath to obtain it.  In between, a multitude of other factors apply such as the number of actual items on the market, the current need for those items, and the principles of both the buyers and sellers.  All of these factors demand an unstable market price.  As buyers come into extra cash and supply drops, prices go high.  As purses tighten and supply is in a glut, prices drop faster than Wile E. Coyote with a brand new Acme Anvil.  Since none of these factors are constants, the only time prices become "stable" is when there is price fixing, which is basically what the OP is suggesting.  Effectively, he is saying the price should be agreed upon by all sellers, and no one should charge less than that.  But that is based on arbitrary factors, such as what the OP thinks is a fair price, not what the market forces dictate.</p><p>The thing the OP is missing is that people have wildly varying motivations when they sell.  Some people, such as the OP, want to get top price.  Others just want to get rid of it as quickly as possible.  The OP is usually willing to wait to get his price, while the latter may need some quick cash or may need their inventory slots for higher value items.  The OP simply cannot impose his evaluation of the "worth" of those items either on other sellers or on buyers.  Sometimes people consider other "profit" factors than just what the most the can squeeze out of a each sale.</p><p>The bottom line is that, in a free market, people are allowed to charge whatever they want.  And sellers are allowed to take what you would consider a loss in the same way that sellers are allowed to post items at outrageous prices which will never likely produce a sale.</p><p>Oh, and by the way, you are never "hurt" by someone charging less than you.  You can always continue to charge 12g for your items.  No one is forcing you to charge less.  And, if you feel an item is well underpriced, you always have the option of buying their items and adding them to your inventory at 12g per unit, as someone else mentioned.</p>

sayitaintso
02-26-2007, 08:24 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>[email protected] wrote: <blockquote> 1) it's called capitalism, get over it 2) with the population getting smaller on some servers, there are fewer and fewer buyers...(just speculation) 3) 12g for a root is insane 4) the economy in EQ2 has never been balanced or well thought out..Every time it looks like the economy was stabilizing, SOE goes and does something like raise broker fees or institute things like Diety sacrifice and transmuting that made prices soar.... </blockquote> Wow. Number one is really rude. Everyone is entitled to their opinions without being told to "get over it." Number two also works the other way. Sure there are less buyers, but there are also less sellers at the same time. Number three is purely an opinion. I agree with it, but it is an opinion. Oh, and it was a hypothetical situation given by the OP. S/he never said it was the real figure. However, going to number four, prices soared for the VERY REASON you just told someone to get over... capitalism exists on supply and demand. More people need the goods, more items are not being put on the broker, so the prices go up. </blockquote>OK get over it was rude, I apologize... With less people period there is more of a stagnant economy..while less product might be being made, fewer people are around to buy the product that is being produced, so the prices drop. I believe that a person should charge what they think is fair market value, what the market can bear, and make as much profit as they are able...competition is a good thing for the server economy, that said, I think number 2 is having more enfluence right now.. The economy was artificially inflated by the release of diety sacrifice and transmuting. tier one and two adept1 spells were selling for 20 times their value....it could have never happened without the artificial enfluence of SOE...I am just glad things are settling out now..

tcwalter
02-26-2007, 08:44 PM
I think part of the problem is lack of information.  When you put something on the marketplace, you don't have any way to tell if those 12g roots have been there 1 minute or 12 months.  You can't see that the last 10 roots that sold were all within the last week and all for over 10g, or that only one has sold this month and for 7g.  The solution is more data.  That still doesn't prevent people from ignoring the information, but it allows better informed decision making. This could even be fit in game-wise.  Have a gnomish brokerage service that does market research for a fee.  Maybe one could get "per price check" fee, while someone more into the market could hire them at a higher flat fee for unlimited research.

Sebastien
02-26-2007, 09:10 PM
<p>First of all, you have to just roll with the punches here.  People will do what they want.</p><p>For some people, they really don't care whether its 1g they make or 20g.. money comes pretty easily in the game and their biggest interest is just in moving things to make room for more stuff to sell.  People like that may look at what the market average is, sell way below in order to turn a quick sale, and be done with it.  Often that quick sale is not a "real" buyer but just someone who intends to resell it.. to the person in this category, it doesn't matter.  The buy-low/sell-high crowd is just another vehicle to give this player what they want: a fast transaction.</p><p>If you really feel an item is underpriced, you can buy and resell (put your money where your mouth is, in other words) or you can simply maintain your price, confident you'll get your top dollar eventually.</p><p>But you can't have it both ways.  Either you are going to be patient and get your top dollar, or you're going to be impulsive and get less.</p><p>What bothers me much more than an underpriced sissal root are the tradeskillers that prostitute out their wares at obsene prices.  In the amount of time it takes me (all things considered, including gathering) to make a few t4 app iv's, I can easily earn 20-40g by adventuring.  Yet those app iv's will sell, if they sell at all, for a handful of silver.. perhaps a few coins each.  And its because some tradeskillers just dump the byproducts of their levelups on the market.  If you dont care about the market please just sell them to the npc, eh?  Allow the game to be a little fun for those of us who are actually into it imo.</p>

RipFlex
02-26-2007, 10:49 PM
<p>Simple answer really.. personally I do not give a cr-a-p about the market and undersell things just a bit to empty my salescrates.   And if it takes more than 2 days to get rid of it at the "reasonable" going price I slash it to 50% off and to make it go away.</p><p>Simple as that...  If you care so much about a Game's market you grab my 7g root and resell it for 12 gold, I want you to.</p>

DarrkElf
02-26-2007, 11:44 PM
<cite>ratman22 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I don't get this at all. I see this all the time and it's <b>driving me nuts!</b></p><p>Here is a sample scenario:</p><p>I usually sell sisal roots for around 12g and have sold many of them around this price. It's a good, stable market price. Then, this happens:</p><p>Someone will have up some sisal roots for 12g. I'll put up my sisal roots for 11g 95s. Someone else will put up their's for 11g 85s. Then, someone will put up his/her sisal roots for 7g, and everyone selling their's afterwards tries to go below those prices. So, the person who did the big skip from 11g 85s to 7g just lowered the market price for sisal roots by 4g for everyone. <b>Why, oh why? This just hurts everyone, including this person!</b></p><p>People were buying at 12g, so why go so much lower? If you want to go lower than the lowest currently listed item, just go for 11g 75s or something like that. <b>I just don't get it!</b> Do these people just not want to make money? Are they just stupid? Do they not want to make money to buy ridiculously expensive spells, weapons, armor, etc.?</p></blockquote><p>Some people don't check the market price, or just decide that they want to sell quick and totally drop the value.</p><p>The best thing to do in my opinion is don't put your items on the broker if there has been a massive drop in values.  Throw it in your bank, then when the value has steadied again put it on the broker.  </p><p>I've seen tier 7 loam drop to 1c each with the undercutting game.  If you think it's worth more than what stuff is selling for on the broker just be patient and wait for values to level.  </p><p>Alternately, play the market to your advantage.  If you see something selling for 5c when you know it usually sells for 80c, buy it, put it in the bank and then when the price goes back up sell it.</p><p>Often the players driving down the price are those that are searching for a specific rare, and the other rares and common harvests are of no value to them, so they price it cheaply to get rid of it.  Eventually they move on to another tier, or another rare and then the price levels again.  The other option (as suggested by one of the earlier posters) is to buy out the cheap stuff, then add it to your own listing at a higher price. </p>

HerbertWalker
02-27-2007, 12:30 AM
<p>What is so hard to understand?  The dude wanted to sell his junk fast.  Big deal.</p>

melaine_dvarvensplitter
02-27-2007, 02:05 AM
<cite>ratman22 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I don't get this at all. I see this all the time and it's <b>driving me nuts!</b></p><p>Here is a sample scenario:</p><p>I usually sell sisal roots for around 12g and have sold many of them around this price. It's a good, stable market price. Then, this happens:</p><p>Someone will have up some sisal roots for 12g. I'll put up my sisal roots for 11g 95s. Someone else will put up their's for 11g 85s. Then, someone will put up his/her sisal roots for 7g, and everyone selling their's afterwards tries to go below those prices. So, the person who did the big skip from 11g 85s to 7g just lowered the market price for sisal roots by 4g for everyone. <b>Why, oh why? This just hurts everyone, including this person!</b></p><p>People were buying at 12g, so why go so much lower? If you want to go lower than the lowest currently listed item, just go for 11g 75s or something like that. <b>I just don't get it!</b> Do these people just not want to make money? Are they just stupid? Do they not want to make money to buy ridiculously expensive spells, weapons, armor, etc.?</p></blockquote>ROFL!!! Ok my take is this... I spend sometimes 20hrs or so a week gathering just for sales and rares so i dont have to buy things off the broker and times ill sell everything I have gathered rares and imbueing rares. I sell cheap and fair, as I remember what it was like at launch to make coin. Now granted its a ton easier with so many things to do, but that isn't here nor there. I dealt with guilds sending me hate mail, hate tells and the such about my prices, best part is the guilds aren't on the server anymore and those who sent the hate tells aren't playing the game. Many forget what fair is be it game play or prices or what not. I will sell low to move the items and if someone has an issue with it.. simple buy what I am selling at the low cost and mark it up. Just my take on this... this has been beaten to death and will continue to be beaten to death in a player based market. *starts digging another hole for the dead horse that is prettty much dust now*

Azan
02-27-2007, 02:48 AM
Supply and demand I totally get. What I don't understand is when some crafters sell their skill-up wares (like App IV spells for example) for at or even sometimes below what a vendor would pay. I mean seriously, why? The only thing that does is hurt other crafters, which I guess is the point, albeit a crappy thing to do. Or make market watchers money, which is just stupid for the seller. Then again, sometimes I'll see App IV spells of the same level going for radically different prices, like 2g for one and 6g for another, even though they take the same materials to make. Supply and demand I guess, though I would wonder if there's really that much "demand" for App IV spells anyway. Weirdness.

Thunderthyze
02-27-2007, 07:10 AM
<cite>Azanth wrote:</cite><blockquote>Supply and demand I totally get. What I don't understand is when some crafters sell their skill-up wares (like App IV spells for example) for at or even sometimes below what a vendor would pay. I mean seriously, why? The only thing that does is hurt other crafters, which I guess is the point, albeit a crappy thing to do. Or make market watchers money, which is just stupid for the seller. Then again, sometimes I'll see App IV spells of the same level going for radically different prices, like 2g for one and 6g for another, even though they take the same materials to make. Supply and demand I guess, though I would wonder if there's really that much "demand" for App IV spells anyway. Weirdness. </blockquote> When transmuting was first introduced adepts became impossible to get and App IV spells came into their own. There is really not THAT huge a difference anyway. Now that everyone, who wanted to, has become a transmuter, by and large, Adept 1 spells are reappearing at sensible prices. What you are possibly seeing with App IV's are the higher priced ones are holdovers from the early days of transmuting not having been repriced. In time you will probably find App IV's will slowly disappear off the brokers again.

Jerr
02-27-2007, 07:15 AM
<p>As long as you are undercutting people you really shouldn't complain.</p><p>The guy at 12G probably thought he/she was selling at a fair price.  Then you come along and undercut him at 11G95S.</p><p>I ALWAYS price at the lowest price-unless I think it will sell higher with some time.</p><p>So in your case-I would have priced mine at 12G and bought out anyone pricing at 7G. </p>

Chirpaa
02-27-2007, 07:53 AM
<p>I'm one of those people who would underprice to the extent mentioned by the OP.  </p><p>Reason #1: I don't just look at the price others are selling what I am for, I also look at other things that should be a part of the decision for fair pricing.  </p><p>Example pertaining to rares (such as the root you mentioned).  I wouldn't just look at the price of the root, I'd look at what price ranges crafters are selling the items that USE the root.  If everyone is trying to sell a rare for 12 gold, but the items crafted from that root are moving for 8 gold on the average... I am going to price it under 8 gold and consider those at 12 out of toon with their customer base.</p><p>An example pertaining to Masters (also mentioned in others replies).  I don't just look at what others are charging for the Master spell i'm selling, I look at other masters in the level range AND the price of Adept III's.  </p><p>Basically, the economic realities of a server are pretty much lost on 8 out of 10 sellers, in my honest opinion, and I feel it is necessary to look at alot more than the price of just what I'm selling to build a picture of what a good, fair price is that will sell quickly.   I believe in inventory turnover as the best way to make money  </p><p>It's clear that most people sell based only on the prices they see others selling the same item for... and they look at nothing else in comparison.  This is why in the case of a lot of things you see people trying to sell something for more than what better items are being sold for.  (Such as recently when I saw that everyone selling one kind of strongbox was trying to sell them for more than the average price of the next larger one... 12 different people, all in the same price range.   Smart, huh?)</p><p>Reason #2: As another has stated already, I'm trying to clear place quickly.  You want to buy it and resell higher? PLEASE DO!</p>

Jal
02-27-2007, 08:05 AM
I price goods to sell also, i check current market and will set at a lower value.  Not the usual 1 silver or stupid things that many do but if a spell is at 3pp on the broker mine gets listed at 2-2.50 f a collectible sells for 1.50 on the broker mine goes in at 1pp.  Its all bonus money in the end and anything coming in is good but id rather sell it cheap than have it sat there for months competing with 50 others at the exact same price..

baguetteovenfresh
02-27-2007, 09:15 AM
<cite>ratman22 wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>Here's an idea...  Buy them out, and repost at ~12g.</blockquote>I have done this on occasion, but this happens so often, I'm really just curious as to why it happens, because it makes no sense to me. In real life, if you were selling something that sells a lot for $10 and all the other vendors are selling it at that price, would you drop the price to $5 for no reason? </blockquote> yep! people see a low, low bargain and buy it - even if they don't need it. dont believe me? go to a deep discount sale at a store and watch people buy absolutely ridiculous things because they cant pass up a bargain. i may lose a potential $5.00 in this manner, but i sell it NOW while you wait a couple weeks to sell it. I prefer to sell large numbers of things very quickly and have cash in hand immediately instead of waiting longer for a potential higher profit which may or may not materialize.

Scald
02-27-2007, 09:38 AM
I think the majority of this is just people not checking prices.  I also think alot of people are quite naive when it comes to the broker. I have made more money buying items at a price LOWER then the vendor will give. I buy 10-20 items a DAY this way, day in day out. These people (different folks not just a few) are just  completely misunderstading the broker system or get hung up in under bidding and end up essentially handing me money. Someone selling a root for 5 gold when I sell 20 a day for 12 gold is exactly the same scenario. The 12 gold roots WILL and DO sell in under a day. Pricing at 5 to empty slots may be the motivation but it's leaving money on the table (money I happily pick up)

Thunderthyze
02-27-2007, 10:00 AM
<cite>Scald wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think the majority of this is just people not checking prices.  I also think alot of people are quite naive when it comes to the broker. I have made more money buying items at a price LOWER then the vendor will give. I buy 10-20 items a DAY this way, day in day out. These people (different folks not just a few) are just  completely misunderstading the broker system or get hung up in under bidding and end up essentially handing me money. Someone selling a root for 5 gold when I sell 20 a day for 12 gold is exactly the same scenario. The 12 gold roots WILL and DO sell in under a day. Pricing at 5 to empty slots may be the motivation but it's leaving money on the table (money I happily pick up)</blockquote><p> I think you are right in suggesting some people get hopelessly confused in using the broker. Additional reasons include looking at the broker prices rather than underlying price before broker commission and wrongly comparing FP and Qeynos prices. Not looking at the base sale price will also affect you if you are competing with a vendor selling out of a 10% comission crate as it still states their comission is (wrongly) 20%.</p><p>Insofar as laziness is concerned as a reason why they would sell below merchant rates I have to disagree. When you go below merchant price the broker will flag this to you by displaying it in a differrent colour. Maybe replace "laziness" with "stupidity", or "rash altruism"?</p>

Rattfa
02-27-2007, 10:11 AM
Generally speaking I will always match the lowest price on the broker. Unless I think thet price is totally unreasonable (10plat for a T2 master anyone?) then i will set a price I think appropriate. Undercutting happens, but if I see someone with something priced up for 11g99s99c I will ignore them out of principle, and spend one copper more on the slightly more expensive item.

Farzmek
02-27-2007, 10:29 AM
<p>I'm the kind of guy that undercuts everyone else, like the Sisal Roots for 7g.</p><p>Why?</p><p>1.)  It's impractical to sell such a low leveled item for such a high price.  It's ridiculous that some of the time, these raws go for more than the finished products!</p><p>2.)  I'm bitter because I was/am poor in game.</p><p>3.)  It works out best for everyone, save myself.  If a lowbie wants to get his hands on some rares, he can do it inexpensively.  If a high-leveled crafter wants to get some, he can do it inexpensively.  If some raw-farmer wants to buy mine up and sell them at a higher price, heck, he can do it inexpensively.</p><p>I usually only come across maybe one or two rares per 100 raws, t2 or t3ish.  To me, it's not a big deal to lose out on 10g, and make someone else's life that much easier.  As said way too many times before, if you don't like it, then buy mine and re-sell them.  More importantly, why the heck would anyone complain about this?!</p><p>"No!  Don't make it so that I don't even have to go out and harvest to make a hefty profit!"</p>

Lord_Quaymar
02-27-2007, 10:39 AM
[email protected] Bayle wrote: <blockquote><cite>Lord_Quaymar wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] Bayle wrote: <blockquote> I stand firm that if *I* sell for a price that suits me, feel good about it, no [Removed for Content] and moaning by you or anyone else could possibly make me think otherwise. Im not the one upset at my prices. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> You forget that it may be part of MY game TO [Removed for Content] off the high pricers. Nuff said.   </blockquote><p> You would never [Removed for Content] me off. I LOVE people like you. You give me free money so...PLEASE....keep selling too low. I like having people out there doing my grunt work for me. You see....I pay you a pittance for the goods and make a fortune reselling it...thanks!</p><p>Oh...and before you claim to run me out of money....never gonna happen. You will grow bored and tired of the farming LONG before I even come close to running out of money. Not to mention the fact that all of my eggs aren't in one basket and I have tons of cash flowing in from other sources as well.</p><p>So...yeah...go ahead and keep [Removed for Content] me off....LOL!</p></blockquote> See, the above merely proves that many people play the game for many different reasons. I cant fathom perceived "wealth" as being an achievment of any kind, especially in a game. The commraderie I play for supercedes any measure of "wealth" when looking at the coin purse. I'm not the red bug eyed toon from Roger Rabbit screaming at the top of my lungs flaunting some percieved wealth, Im just a happy person at the end of the day. I'm also not viewed as a piece of trash either, so we both win our games dont we? They still nuked interdependency and the spirit shards, btw. </blockquote> I'm not "the red bug eyed toon from Roger Rabbit" either. I just hate not being able to buy something that I want so I amass huge amounts of plat so when something VERY rare shows up on the broker I can buy it and not even flinch. That's my motivation. I don't see it as an achievemant either...just a means to get what I want.

Lord_Quaymar
02-27-2007, 10:47 AM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote> If there are a LOT of items up for sale, all withing a tiny increment of each other, say  1 each @ 10 gold, 9g99s, 9g98s, 9g97s..etc... I will price mine signifigantly below it, for instance 8 gold, or perhaps even 5. Why? Because I want to sell it. --Plague </blockquote><p> This is the most common misconception I have seen imho. In this scenario, you would sell it just as fast if you priced it at 9g 95s. There is either a demand for it or there is not and the lowest price will get bought first usually. If you sell any faster than normal, it's because one of the other sellers are taking advantage of your lack of patience and reselling it.</p><p>Patience = exponentially more plat over time.</p>

Lord_Quaymar
02-27-2007, 10:54 AM
<cite>baguetteovenfresh wrote:</cite><blockquote>ratman22 wrote: i may lose a potential $5.00 in this manner, but i sell it NOW while you wait a couple weeks to sell it. I prefer to sell large numbers of things very quickly and have cash in hand immediately instead of waiting longer for a potential higher profit which may or may not materialize. </blockquote> Another example of the same misconception. The belief is that it will take weeks to sell rather than a couple days or hours when this is absolutely not true. As long as there is a demand for what you are selling and you have the lowest price, even by 1s, it WILL sell just as fast give or take a few hours. Patience is key....a trait that many seem to be lacking.

Lord_Quaymar
02-27-2007, 11:00 AM
<cite>Farzmek wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I'm the kind of guy that undercuts everyone else, like the Sisal Roots for 7g.</p><p>Why?</p><p>1.)  It's impractical to sell such a low leveled item for such a high price.  It's ridiculous that some of the time, these raws go for more than the finished products!</p><p>2.)  I'm bitter because I was/am poor in game.</p><p>3.)  It works out best for everyone, save myself.  If a lowbie wants to get his hands on some rares, he can do it inexpensively.  If a high-leveled crafter wants to get some, he can do it inexpensively.  If some raw-farmer wants to buy mine up and sell them at a higher price, heck, he can do it inexpensively.</p><p>I usually only come across maybe one or two rares per 100 raws, t2 or t3ish.  To me, it's not a big deal to lose out on 10g, and make someone else's life that much easier.  As said way too many times before, if you don't like it, then buy mine and re-sell them.  More importantly, why the heck would anyone complain about this?!</p><p>"No!  Don't make it so that I don't even have to go out and harvest to make a hefty profit!"</p></blockquote>HAHA! You have absolutely NO RIGHT to complain or be bitter about being poor. You are to blame for it! Ever stop to think that you are poor because you sell your stuff for prices that are just WAY too low? You say it isn't a big deal to lose out on 10g but then say you are bitter because you are poor....do you realize how completely rediculous that is? It's like standing on a street corner handing out money to the homeless then complaining that you are broke...well....DUH!

Hammer4
02-27-2007, 11:15 AM
<cite>ratman22 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I understand and agree with this. However, this does not answer my original question: why did you set the price at 4g if you could instead sell the item just as easily at 12g? <b>That</b> is my question. not <b>that</b> it happens, but <b>why</b> does it happen? </blockquote><p> The answer is, YOU CAN'T sell items "just as easily" when there are 14 people all hovering around the same price.  I don't know about your buying habits, but I always buy the cheapest item on the broker when I go to buy something.  The ONLY thing people look for is price, because all items are guaranteed quality and there's no such thing as a return policy, so price is the only difference between vendors.  If a vendor wants to unload their merchandise, they have to be the low price.  The lower the price, the faster they unload their merchandise.</p><p>I don't know if it can be explained in any simpler terms than this.  If you still don't understand, it will just have to remain one of the deeper mysteries of life, like "How many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie pop?"</p>

Hammer4
02-27-2007, 11:20 AM
<cite>Lord_Quaymar wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just take advantage of the morons. Buy up all the roots at 7g and under and resell em for the FMV of 12g. I do this all the time and I make a fortune doing it. I really like it when someone thinks they will outdo me by continually placing them for the same rediculously low price but I will always win because they will grow tired of farming them LONG before I grow tired of clicking "Buy Item" for free money lol. </blockquote> Until someone notices that all the cheap items disappear and you're the one sitting at the bottom of the list with 6 of the same item listed.  Then I start pricing a silver less than you.  I try to help people out, but I'm not going to get screwed.  If you're going to buy all the cheap stuff, you can buy mine too, or let me get the first sale.  I don't care.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Lord_Quaymar
02-27-2007, 11:23 AM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><cite>ratman22 wrote:</cite><blockquote>The answer is, YOU CAN'T sell items "just as easily" when there are 14 people all hovering around the same price.  I don't know about your buying habits, but I always buy the cheapest item on the broker when I go to buy something.  The ONLY thing people look for is price, because all items are guaranteed quality and there's no such thing as a return policy, so price is the only difference between vendors.  If a vendor wants to unload their merchandise, they have to be the low price.  The lower the price, the faster they unload their merchandise.</blockquote></blockquote> Only partially true. Sure, you need to have the lowest price to sell quicker but not the lowest by 50-75% or more....that's silly. Being the lowest by 10% or so is more than adequate and, assuming there is demand, will guarantee you a sale the next time a buyer comes along.

Hammer4
02-27-2007, 11:31 AM
<cite>Lord_Quaymar wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>But if 10 other people are selling that Master for 20-30g, it is you that is wrong and it is YOU that is doing harm not only to yourself but to the people playing their first toon too. How? You devalue the market and, thanks to you, that same newbie who just got a Master that he/she does NOT need cannot sell it for 20-30g as they should be able to because you have screwed up the market by underpricing. Underpricing out of some misguided self righteousness can be just as harmful as overpricing.</p><p>I had 10p by level 20 on my "first toon" so the assumption that they do not have the money is completely false. </p></blockquote><p> Yes, but anyone who has read any of your ten thousand posts knows what an utter genius you are, so you can't consider yourself the average newb.  Speaking personally, I didn't have a full plat cash on hand until my main was almost 40.  Of all the different spots on the learning curve, broker diving is just about the last thing most people figure out.</p><p>At least, those of us who aren't geniuses.</p><p>So, assuming that a character who's making 5sp on body loot drops will not be able to pay 12sp for a raw rare to make an item instead of using one of the thousand quite functional quested items they might have available is not an invalid or unwise assumption.  Who's buying sisal for 12gp?  Tailors making hex dolls for twinks.</p>

Hammer4
02-27-2007, 11:56 AM
<cite>Lord_Quaymar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>baguetteovenfresh wrote:</cite><blockquote>ratman22 wrote: i may lose a potential $5.00 in this manner, but i sell it NOW while you wait a couple weeks to sell it. I prefer to sell large numbers of things very quickly and have cash in hand immediately instead of waiting longer for a potential higher profit which may or may not materialize. </blockquote> Another example of the same misconception. The belief is that it will take weeks to sell rather than a couple days or hours when this is absolutely not true. As long as there is a demand for what you are selling and you have the lowest price, even by 1s, it WILL sell just as fast give or take a few hours. Patience is key....a trait that many seem to be lacking.</blockquote><p>Sometimes, the true genius loses track of how the common man thinks.  As someone else pointed out, sometimes people buy things just because it's a deal.  You said yourself you want to have enough money so that you can buy what you want "without flinching."  Different people flinch at different points.  Maybe someone will see a rare priced at 60% of what the rest are priced at, and buy something right away that they were only mulling over.  Or maybe they consider 12gp "maybe too much" but 7gp is right in the sweet spot.</p><p>And, as someone else pointed out in a very cogent post, if they can run 40 stacks of materials through the same broker spot in a week, tying up a slot just "being patient" isn't very smart.</p><p>Pricing merchandise to move fast works for WalMart.  Patience is lacking them way up into the billions in yearly sales.  Guess it just depends on your style.</p>

Lord_Quaymar
02-27-2007, 11:56 AM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><cite>Lord_Quaymar wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>But if 10 other people are selling that Master for 20-30g, it is you that is wrong and it is YOU that is doing harm not only to yourself but to the people playing their first toon too. How? You devalue the market and, thanks to you, that same newbie who just got a Master that he/she does NOT need cannot sell it for 20-30g as they should be able to because you have screwed up the market by underpricing. Underpricing out of some misguided self righteousness can be just as harmful as overpricing.</p><p>I had 10p by level 20 on my "first toon" so the assumption that they do not have the money is completely false. </p></blockquote><p> Yes, but anyone who has read any of your ten thousand posts knows what an utter genius you are, so you can't consider yourself the average newb.  Speaking personally, I didn't have a full plat cash on hand until my main was almost 40.  Of all the different spots on the learning curve, broker diving is just about the last thing most people figure out.</p><p>At least, those of us who aren't geniuses.</p><p>So, assuming that a character who's making 5sp on body loot drops will not be able to pay 12sp for a raw rare to make an item instead of using one of the thousand quite functional quested items they might have available is not an invalid or unwise assumption.  Who's buying sisal for 12gp?  Tailors making hex dolls for twinks.</p></blockquote><p>LOL...thanks for the compliment but my point is the total opposite actually. I'm a complete [Removed for Content] and I managed to do it so, for that reason, ANYONE can do it.</p><p>That same character, using simple logic, should go out and harvest his own Sisal roots and sell them for 11g75s! </p>

Lord_Quaymar
02-27-2007, 11:58 AM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><p>Pricing merchandise to move fast works for WalMart.  Patience is lacking them way up into the billions in yearly sales.  Guess it just depends on your style.</p></blockquote><p> Yes...but you will NEVER see them sell something that is a bargain at $10.00 for $1.50</p><p>THAT's the point.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

Amytheyst
02-27-2007, 11:59 AM
I dont see what all the controversy is for in the first place. Bottom line, people will sell for what they want to. Some sell by their perception of what they think is fair, others, perhaps by mechanical diagnosis, or even by "milking the market for mad plat" by continually seeing how much they can get for an item, especially if theres little of said product on the broker... So what. Every one has their reasons, and for each their method or approach is "right". So what. Enjoy the game- I do, been playing long enough to have whatever I want when I want it by my own methods. If you think someone is selling low, buy it up and move on. If you whine about low sellers driving the market down remember you havent a leg to stand on, youre just as guilty in the reverse, so, (being direct AND rude) GET OVER IT. The different factions here wont ever agree, its our monkey nature. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> /off to another thread or to go bash VG losers /peace

Hammer4
02-27-2007, 12:08 PM
<cite>Lord_Quaymar wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><p>Pricing merchandise to move fast works for WalMart.  Patience is lacking them way up into the billions in yearly sales.  Guess it just depends on your style.</p></blockquote><p> Yes...but you will NEVER see them sell something that is a bargain at $10.00 for $1.50</p><p>THAT's the point.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote><p>You certainly will.  If it's been in the store for a month it goes on the rollback table at 20% off.  The longer it stays in the store the farther down the aisle it goes and the cheaper it gets.  If you're willing to wait long enough, you may indeed get a $10 item for $1.50.</p><p>Patience is a virtue.  Someone said that. </p>

Lord_Quaymar
02-27-2007, 12:08 PM
[email protected] Bayle wrote: <blockquote> /off to another thread or to go bash VG losers </blockquote> What exactly is a VG loser? Someone who played it for 5 minutes and gave up because it was too hard?

Lord_Quaymar
02-27-2007, 12:13 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><cite>Lord_Quaymar wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><p>Pricing merchandise to move fast works for WalMart.  Patience is lacking them way up into the billions in yearly sales.  Guess it just depends on your style.</p></blockquote><p> Yes...but you will NEVER see them sell something that is a bargain at $10.00 for $1.50</p><p>THAT's the point.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote><p>You certainly will.  If it's been in the store for a month it goes on the rollback table at 20% off.  The longer it stays in the store the farther down the aisle it goes and the cheaper it gets.  If you're willing to wait long enough, you may indeed get a $10 item for $1.50.</p><p>Patience is a virtue.  Someone said that. </p></blockquote><p>That is the rare exception rather than normal business practices. That's a case where a buyer made a mistake and bought too much inventory and the demand is just not there. The same thing goes on our broker....no demand = tanked prices. But, as I said, as long as there IS a demand (I said this several times), it is silly to undercut by more than 10-20% or so.</p><p>P.S. - In that example above, I would go in and buy all those $1.50 items and go sell em on Ebay for $5.00 to $7.00 + shipping and handling. I make some nice money doing this on the side.  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p>

liveja
02-27-2007, 12:25 PM
<cite>Lord_Quaymar wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><cite>ratman22 wrote:</cite><blockquote>The answer is, YOU CAN'T sell items "just as easily" when there are 14 people all hovering around the same price.  I don't know about your buying habits, but I always buy the cheapest item on the broker when I go to buy something.  The ONLY thing people look for is price, because all items are guaranteed quality and there's no such thing as a return policy, so price is the only difference between vendors.  If a vendor wants to unload their merchandise, they have to be the low price.  The lower the price, the faster they unload their merchandise.</blockquote></blockquote> Only partially true. Sure, you need to have the lowest price to sell quicker but not the lowest by 50-75% or more....that's silly. Being the lowest by 10% or so is more than adequate and, assuming there is demand, will guarantee you a sale the next time a buyer comes along.</blockquote><p>IMHO, that depends entirely on the item being sold. I think some people wildly over-value certain items, so they badly over-price them when they put them up on the broker. If I see something that I think is wildly over-priced, I'll under-cut that person by FAR more than 75%.</p><p>Case in point: an item I got from an adept chest in Kaladim, some treasured Mage bracer; nice item, I figured it was worth maybe 20 gold, tops. I get to the broker, some yokel has it selling for more than a plat. I put mine up for 50 gold, & ended up dropping the price down to I think 20 to sell it.</p><p>The key phrase to go by, of course, is "assuming there is demand". The fact is, there isn't a lot of demand for a LOT of relatively decent items, but that doesn't stop people from wildly over-pricing those items. Competing with such people at 10% less does nobody any good at all, & IMHO, it does "the market" a lot MORE good to radically undercut them. If nothing else, doing so might help to educate some players on proper pricing strategies.</p><p>In the end,  actual play money in my bank account is FAR more valuable to me than is potential play money sitting on my broker. Having a rare collectible up for 80 gold, 10% less than the highest price, is pointless to me if nobody buys the item at all. I'd rather drop my price to half what that highest bidder is asking & actually sell the item. & ya know what? That strategy works for me quite nicely. Note that I've rarely, if ever, complained on these forums about the difficulty of making money or buying gear! </p><p>Ruthless under-cutting for the win.</p>

Amytheyst
02-27-2007, 12:26 PM
<cite>Lord_Quaymar wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] Bayle wrote: <blockquote> /off to another thread or to go bash VG losers </blockquote> What exactly is a VG loser? Someone who played it for 5 minutes and gave up because it was too hard?</blockquote>/expected response, LOL. The junk game speaks for itself (well, it tries to anyways). Dont hijack the ops thread because youre a vanboi. /no further response

Lord_Quaymar
02-27-2007, 12:33 PM
[email protected] Bayle wrote: <blockquote><cite>Lord_Quaymar wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] Bayle wrote: <blockquote> /off to another thread or to go bash VG losers </blockquote> What exactly is a VG loser? Someone who played it for 5 minutes and gave up because it was too hard?</blockquote>/expected response, LOL. The junk game speaks for itself (well, it tries to anyways). Dont hijack the ops thread because youre a vanboi. /no further response </blockquote>Yep...I'm an EQ2 Fanboi and a Vanguard Vanboi....and PROUD of it! The only real losers are the ones that think these silly names are actually insults.

Lord_Quaymar
02-27-2007, 12:46 PM
<cite>livejazz wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lord_Quaymar wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><cite>ratman22 wrote:</cite><blockquote>The answer is, YOU CAN'T sell items "just as easily" when there are 14 people all hovering around the same price.  I don't know about your buying habits, but I always buy the cheapest item on the broker when I go to buy something.  The ONLY thing people look for is price, because all items are guaranteed quality and there's no such thing as a return policy, so price is the only difference between vendors.  If a vendor wants to unload their merchandise, they have to be the low price.  The lower the price, the faster they unload their merchandise.</blockquote></blockquote> Only partially true. Sure, you need to have the lowest price to sell quicker but not the lowest by 50-75% or more....that's silly. Being the lowest by 10% or so is more than adequate and, assuming there is demand, will guarantee you a sale the next time a buyer comes along.</blockquote><p>IMHO, that depends entirely on the item being sold. I think some people wildly over-value certain items, so they badly over-price them when they put them up on the broker. If I see something that I think is wildly over-priced, I'll under-cut that person by FAR more than 75%.</p><p>Case in point: an item I got from an adept chest in Kaladim, some treasured Mage bracer; nice item, I figured it was worth maybe 20 gold, tops. I get to the broker, some yokel has it selling for more than a plat. I put mine up for 50 gold, & ended up dropping the price down to I think 20 to sell it.</p><p>The key phrase to go by, of course, is "assuming there is demand". The fact is, there isn't a lot of demand for a LOT of relatively decent items, but that doesn't stop people from wildly over-pricing those items. Competing with such people at 10% less does nobody any good at all, & IMHO, it does "the market" a lot MORE good to radically undercut them. If nothing else, doing so might help to educate some players on proper pricing strategies.</p><p>In the end,  actual play money in my bank account is FAR more valuable to me than is potential play money sitting on my broker. Having a rare collectible up for 80 gold, 10% less than the highest price, is pointless to me if nobody buys the item at all. I'd rather drop my price to half what that highest bidder is asking & actually sell the item. & ya know what? That strategy works for me quite nicely. Note that I've rarely, if ever, complained on these forums about the difficulty of making money or buying gear! </p><p>Ruthless under-cutting for the win.</p></blockquote><p>Well...naturally, there are exceptions to everything. Remember....something is only "wildly over-priced" if it doesn't sell. Sure...opinions can vary amongst sellers but the only opinion that really counts is that of the buyers out there. I sell collectibles all day long for 75g, 1p, 2p, 3p and even 5p or more. </p><p>It does the market no good at all to radically undercut a price. Why? Because any number of savvy players will snatch that thing up and resell it for the higher price. So, in the end, you are really only hurting yourself. Again, there are exceptions of course and that's where knowledge of the market comes in....following is an example.</p><p>On my server, I know that the Scalelord Boots typically sell for 25-40p and there is rarely more than 2 up for sale at any time if there are any at all. One day, doing my normal searches, I see that there is a set of these boots up for sale (There weren't any for the longest time) and this goof priced it for 75p. I just laughed and thought...good luck with that one. </p><p>Later that day, I do another search and see that yet another goof put the same boots up for sale for 10p undercutting goof #1 by 65p lol. Now, knowing what the "normal" range is, I bought the 10p pair and put it up for sale for 21p...a good bargain knowing the normal range. 3 hours later, the boots sold for 21p.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  As we speak, goof #1 has dropped his price to 25p and I have bought another pair for 11p and put them up for 21p. Just an example to better illustrate the point I'm trying to make. </p>

liveja
02-27-2007, 12:54 PM
<cite>Lord_Quaymar wrote:</cite><blockquote>something is only "wildly over-priced" if it doesn't sell.</blockquote><p>Um ... something is "wildly over-priced" if I say it is. Literally. Yes, I'm serious. Because "over-priced" is a matter of the value a given person places on a given item, nothing more, nothing less. This is true of real life, just as it's true of EQ2.</p><p>I'm not going to argue most of your point, though, because we're both right. I will say, however, that the notion that I'm "hurting" myself via ruthless undercutting is entirely your opinion, one which I do not share. Sorry, LQ, but you'll just have to feel my pain for me; I can't feel even a twinge.</p>

Lord_Quaymar
02-27-2007, 12:59 PM
<cite>livejazz wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lord_Quaymar wrote:</cite><blockquote>something is only "wildly over-priced" if it doesn't sell.</blockquote><p>Um ... something is "wildly over-priced" if I say it is. Literally. Yes, I'm serious. Because "over-priced" is a matter of the value a given person places on a given item, nothing more, nothing less. This is true of real life, just as it's true of EQ2.</p><p>I'm not going to argue most of your point, though, because we're both right. I will say, however, that the notion that I'm "hurting" myself via ruthless undercutting is entirely your opinion, one which I do not share. Sorry, LQ, but you'll just have to feel my pain for me; I can't feel even a twinge.</p></blockquote><p> I hear ya. But, again, the only opinion that really matters is the buyers....not the sellers.</p><p>I also understand that it's easy to ignore the loss of plat never received in the first place. If you were the person selling the boots for 10p in my example above, you might be pleased at getting 10p from that sale but the reality is that you SHOULD have 21p or more instead....it's easy to put blinders on and ignore that though...I understand the point there.</p>

Ishya
02-27-2007, 01:19 PM
<cite>Lord_Quaymar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>livejazz wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lord_Quaymar wrote:</cite><blockquote>something is only "wildly over-priced" if it doesn't sell.</blockquote><p>Um ... something is "wildly over-priced" if I say it is. Literally. Yes, I'm serious. Because "over-priced" is a matter of the value a given person places on a given item, nothing more, nothing less. This is true of real life, just as it's true of EQ2.</p><p>I'm not going to argue most of your point, though, because we're both right. I will say, however, that the notion that I'm "hurting" myself via ruthless undercutting is entirely your opinion, one which I do not share. Sorry, LQ, but you'll just have to feel my pain for me; I can't feel even a twinge.</p></blockquote><p> I hear ya. But, again, the only opinion that really matters is the buyers....not the sellers.</p><p>I also understand that it's easy to ignore the loss of plat never received in the first place. If you were the person selling the boots for 10p in my example above, you might be pleased at getting 10p from that sale but the reality is that you SHOULD have 21p or more instead....it's easy to put blinders on and ignore that though...I understand the point there.</p></blockquote>did it occur to you that some don't want that 21p? if i sell a T7 rare for 50g i very well know i can sell it for 1p-2p. i just don't want that. i'd never spend 2p on a rare i can harvest myself. so why should i ask a price that i would never buy it myself If i sell fabled items for 10p and i see other selling it for 40p, i don't sell it to get "fast cash", nor do i sell it with that price  to get rid of it. I sell it for 10p because i would never buy it for 40p, but for 10p i would buy it. I don't need any platinium at all. thanks to my wonderful guild (much love midnight <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ), i know if i ask anything they will help me to get it, or help me to get money for it, or i would recieve it from my guild.

Badaxe Ba
02-27-2007, 01:29 PM
<p>Its already been said,but I'll repeat it, a person marks their prices to gain what they wish to get out of it.  If this puts you at the high price mark, then economics as had its way with you.  Since I'm a weaponsmith, I have no sympathy whatsoever for anyone who sells rares, and then complains when someone undersells the broker average.</p><p>Badgers beat my prices all the time.</p>

Bramwe
02-27-2007, 01:42 PM
I do it all the time.  People put up EoF collection rares for like 4-5 plat and sure enough four or five people will undercut that first one by like 4 gold.  This makes it so there are more so called rare items on the broker than common items.  I am not going to wait around playing games trying to sell my products for 5-10g less than the next person.  I will gladly sell that same rare for 3p, buy a master or some sort of upgrade and continue on my way.  Otherwise, I am trying to undercut people by 5g for a week or two and my items never sell.  These items are used to complete "Treasured" quests for Christ's sake.

Lord_Quaymar
02-27-2007, 01:43 PM
[email protected] Bayle wrote: <blockquote><cite>Lord_Quaymar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>livejazz wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lord_Quaymar wrote:</cite><blockquote>something is only "wildly over-priced" if it doesn't sell.</blockquote><p>Um ... something is "wildly over-priced" if I say it is. Literally. Yes, I'm serious. Because "over-priced" is a matter of the value a given person places on a given item, nothing more, nothing less. This is true of real life, just as it's true of EQ2.</p><p>I'm not going to argue most of your point, though, because we're both right. I will say, however, that the notion that I'm "hurting" myself via ruthless undercutting is entirely your opinion, one which I do not share. Sorry, LQ, but you'll just have to feel my pain for me; I can't feel even a twinge.</p></blockquote><p> I hear ya. But, again, the only opinion that really matters is the buyers....not the sellers.</p><p>I also understand that it's easy to ignore the loss of plat never received in the first place. If you were the person selling the boots for 10p in my example above, you might be pleased at getting 10p from that sale but the reality is that you SHOULD have 21p or more instead....it's easy to put blinders on and ignore that though...I understand the point there.</p></blockquote>did it occur to you that some don't want that 21p? if i sell a T7 rare for 50g i very well know i can sell it for 1p-2p. i just don't want that. i'd never spend 2p on a rare i can harvest myself. so why should i ask a price that i would never buy it myself If i sell fabled items for 10p and i see other selling it for 40p, i don't sell it to get "fast cash", nor do i sell it with that price  to get rid of it. I sell it for 10p because i would never buy it for 40p, but for 10p i would buy it. I don't need any platinium at all. thanks to my wonderful guild (much love midnight <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ), i know if i ask anything they will help me to get it, or help me to get money for it, or i would recieve it from my guild. </blockquote><p>If you truly didn't want the plat, you would never sell anything....you would simply give it away now wouldn't you? So that arguement is a complete farce.</p><p>If it makes you feel better to throw plat away...more power to you. I need people like you in the game so I can have plat rolling in for little or no effort. So, I say...THANKS!!  /bow </p>

ratman22
02-27-2007, 01:44 PM
<p>Well, thanks for the feedback everyone. I have learned some reasons for pricing items on the broker I truly never would have thought of myself. That's what makes life, and EQ 2, so interesting. It would be very boring if everyone thought the same way. I certainly don't agree with everyone here, but it was interesting to read your feedback on this.</p><p>This kind of thing will continue to drive me nuts, but at least I understand people's motivation for doing so a little better. I don't hate anyone for doing so and I would never harass anyone, in or outside of the game, for underpricing me. I was just curious about the thoughts behind this.</p><p>My prediction is that Lord Q, myself and others will continue to make money by buying out the lower priced items and reselling them for whatever people are willing to pay.</p><p>BTW: I'm doing ok money-wise, but I am certainly not rich. I have been able to buy some thing I want/need for my character, but many others are way out of my reach. My main char is a level 31 conjurer now and has some master spells, some adept iiis, and many lower level spells. I just upgraded most of my equipment to increase my INT pool, but I spent about 45g total in doing so. I could increase my INT pool much more, but paying 70g for a single level 30-31 piece of equipment would simply wipe out my cash reserves real quick.</p>

Lord_Quaymar
02-27-2007, 01:54 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>I do it all the time.  People put up EoF collection rares for like 4-5 plat and sure enough four or five people will undercut that first one by like 4 gold.  This makes it so there are more so called rare items on the broker than common items.  I am not going to wait around playing games trying to sell my products for 5-10g less than the next person.  I will gladly sell that same rare for 3p, buy a master or some sort of upgrade and continue on my way.  Otherwise, I am trying to undercut people by 5g for a week or two and my items never sell.  These items are used to complete "Treasured" quests for Christ's sake. </blockquote><p> Well...you see....the reason those rares sell for so much is because they are...well...rare. It could, in theory, take weeks or months to find that one rare and the person buying it could probably make many times the 5p in that same amount of time so it's a trade off. I gladly paid 5-15p for some of the EoF rare collections because I knew that my time would be better spent doing something else other than trying to get those. Especially the collections from the castle...odds are, I would never get those...at least not the rare ones for sure.</p><p>The misconception here again is that it takes weeks to sell something by only undercutting in 5-10g increments and I will tell you that it is absolutely not true. The lenght of time difference is more a matter of hours or, at most, days...not weeks.</p><p>Also, these "Treasured" quests are clearly not labeled properly when these alleged Treasured rewards are better than Legendary and in some cases Fabled items of the same level. They should be, in reality, Legendary quests. </p>

Karlen
02-27-2007, 01:56 PM
<p><span style="color: #99ff00">>>>>I sell collectibles all day long for 75g, 1p, 2p, 3p and even 5p or more.  It does the market no good at all to radically undercut a price. Why? Because any number of savvy players will snatch that thing up and resell it for the higher price. So, in the end, you are really only hurting yourself.<<<</span></p>Quite often I will price something very low in order to sell it quickly.   If a reseller snaps it up and puts it back up at a higher price, then we both win.   He gets his eventual profit and I get the cash I need now. Some people can afford to sit on inventory a lot longer than others.   I might be able to get 1p for something by tomorrow, but I might need the money now -- even if I will only get 50g for the item in a rush sale. As an example, I make totems. Recently I made some Chameleon totems.  The "NPC price" is about 20s and assuming I buy the raws, the actual cost to make each one is about 30-35s.    Generally speaking I will see them on the broker for 1g to 6g.   I can price them at 90s and sell as many as I can make.   However, at 80s or 75s, I will sell them more quickly -- which is why I often price them lower when I am actually at the woodworking table (since I can replace any that sell as they sell).  Most of the money I get from sales goes back into buying sandpaper and raw materials (including rares).  Quite often I find myself with only 5-10g leftover after resupplying.  In such cases, I will often drop prices drastically in order to create cash flow.   Chameleon totems for 40s might be significantly undercutting, but it is more than the npc price and will generate enough cash when I really need it (such as to repair my armor).

Lord_Quaymar
02-27-2007, 01:59 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><p><span style="color: #99ff00">>>>>I sell collectibles all day long for 75g, 1p, 2p, 3p and even 5p or more.  It does the market no good at all to radically undercut a price. Why? Because any number of savvy players will snatch that thing up and resell it for the higher price. So, in the end, you are really only hurting yourself.<<<</span></p>Quite often I will price something very low in order to sell it quickly.   If a reseller snaps it up and puts it back up at a higher price, then we both win.   He gets his eventual profit and I get the cash I need now. Some people can afford to sit on inventory a lot longer than others.   I might be able to get 1p for something by tomorrow, but I might need the money now -- even if I will only get 50g for the item in a rush sale. As an example, I make totems. Recently I made some Chameleon totems.  The "NPC price" is about 20s and assuming I buy the raws, the actual cost to make each one is about 30-35s.    Generally speaking I will see them on the broker for 1g to 6g.   I can price them at 90s and sell as many as I can make.   However, at 80s or 75s, I will sell them more quickly -- which is why I often price them lower when I am actually at the woodworking table (since I can replace any that sell as they sell).  Most of the money I get from sales goes back into buying sandpaper and raw materials (including rares).  Quite often I find myself with only 5-10g leftover after resupplying.  In such cases, I will often drop prices drastically in order to create cash flow.   Chameleon totems for 40s might be significantly undercutting, but it is more than the npc price and will generate enough cash when I really need it (such as to repair my armor). </blockquote><p>Another good example of what I have already said 100 times. Some people just lack the patience and, in the end, throw money away because of it. That's ok though....I need people like you in the game...it's how I get free plat!</p><p>Who needs to buy plat when people give it away so freely??  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p>

Ishya
02-27-2007, 02:05 PM
<cite>Lord_Quaymar wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] Bayle wrote: <blockquote><cite>Lord_Quaymar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>livejazz wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lord_Quaymar wrote:</cite><blockquote>something is only "wildly over-priced" if it doesn't sell.</blockquote><p>Um ... something is "wildly over-priced" if I say it is. Literally. Yes, I'm serious. Because "over-priced" is a matter of the value a given person places on a given item, nothing more, nothing less. This is true of real life, just as it's true of EQ2.</p><p>I'm not going to argue most of your point, though, because we're both right. I will say, however, that the notion that I'm "hurting" myself via ruthless undercutting is entirely your opinion, one which I do not share. Sorry, LQ, but you'll just have to feel my pain for me; I can't feel even a twinge.</p></blockquote><p> I hear ya. But, again, the only opinion that really matters is the buyers....not the sellers.</p><p>I also understand that it's easy to ignore the loss of plat never received in the first place. If you were the person selling the boots for 10p in my example above, you might be pleased at getting 10p from that sale but the reality is that you SHOULD have 21p or more instead....it's easy to put blinders on and ignore that though...I understand the point there.</p></blockquote>did it occur to you that some don't want that 21p? if i sell a T7 rare for 50g i very well know i can sell it for 1p-2p. i just don't want that. i'd never spend 2p on a rare i can harvest myself. so why should i ask a price that i would never buy it myself If i sell fabled items for 10p and i see other selling it for 40p, i don't sell it to get "fast cash", nor do i sell it with that price  to get rid of it. I sell it for 10p because i would never buy it for 40p, but for 10p i would buy it. I don't need any platinium at all. thanks to my wonderful guild (much love midnight <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ), i know if i ask anything they will help me to get it, or help me to get money for it, or i would recieve it from my guild. </blockquote><p>If you truly didn't want the plat, you would never sell anything....you would simply give it away now wouldn't you? So that arguement is a complete farce.</p><p>If it makes you feel better to throw plat away...more power to you. I need people like you in the game so I can have plat rolling in for little or no effort. So, I say...THANKS!!  /bow </p></blockquote> 75% of my items i do give away. unfortunatley i need money too, for repairs,rent  and the occasional upgrades i buy but hey, i am a communist so bash me some more  because i  give those items away, or sell for a low  price  instead of selling it for high and rip off some new/unaware/naive players

Lord_Quaymar
02-27-2007, 02:08 PM
[email protected] Bayle wrote: <blockquote>75% of my items i do give away. so what i am a communist. </blockquote> That's fine...my only wish is that you were on my server.  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Ishya
02-27-2007, 02:11 PM
bah, you replied before i even finished :p .. [Removed for Content] edit ><

Lord_Quaymar
02-27-2007, 02:48 PM
[email protected] Bayle wrote: <blockquote>so bash me some more  because i  give those items away, or sell for a low  price  instead of selling it for high and rip off some new/unaware/naive players </blockquote><p> I'm not bashing you, I appreciate the free plat....so I'm THANKING you.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Also, it's impossible to rip people off on the broker as nobody is forced to buy anything and they can go out and get anything I sell for FREE. </p><p>How am I ripping people off when I sell for the lowest price within reason? (Meaning that I sell 25-40p boots for 21p for example) Hmmm? You may disagree with the prices set on the broker but that does not mean that you are right nor that it is a ripoff.</p><p>Buyers dictate the prices, not the sellers. The sooner you understand this, the better off you will be.</p>

mellowknees72
02-27-2007, 02:57 PM
<cite>ratman22 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Natak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ratman22 wrote:</cite><blockquote><b><span style="color: #cc3300">How does this hurt the person? Does it cost ANYTHING to harvest a sissal root? Last I checked, it doesn't. So here is what happens. The person puts it up at 7 gold. Either a) another seller buys it and reprices it at a higher price --- Consequence: orginal seller gets the 7 gold he wants and the new seller has more stock, and at a higher price which will sell at what he wants. Win/win Or b) a person who can use the root buys it at a discount price --- Consequence: Seller gets what he wants (the 7 gold) and the buyer gets a good deal on a rare. Win/win. The only "loser" is the person who was not bought from at the higher price.</span> </b></blockquote><p>Well, I feel we both lose because both of us could be making more money. Remember, the only reason I, and I assume most other players, sell anything on the broker to begin with, is to make money, so that we can afford to buy the things we want/need for our characters. I'm not particularly happy about the prices of many of the items I want/need to buy, but as many folks here have stated, market price goes (most of the time). So, I want to maximize the amount of money I get for my stuff so I can afford to pay for stuff I want without having to grind 50 years to be able to afford them.</p><p>Why do you feel the need to dictate how much someone sells ANYTHING for in a virtual game. If the person wanted to sell it for 1 gold, more power to them. Is it hurting you? If so, perhaps you are the reason you are hurt for wanting to keep the prices so high. Demanding someone sell an item that has almost NO risk associated with getting for a price YOU deem fair is ridiculous.</p></blockquote><b>Whoa, chill out! I'm not dictating or demanding anything, nor do I want to. I am merely curious why people feel the need to lower the prices of items when I personally see no reason to and I personally see a lot of need to get good prices for my stuff so I can afford other people's high priced stuff.</b> </blockquote><p>Are you seriously asking why people price stuff lower than other people?</p><p>Quick, simple answer: TO GET RID OF IT FAST.</p><p>I have limited space to sell stuff and a lot of alts getting stuff for me to sell.  I ALWAYS undercut.  If I don't move something, it means I have one less spot to put something else.</p><p>In all seriousness, go take a walk through Walmart if you don't understand this concept.  More stuff moved quickly = more money made quickly.  </p>

CireNamyn
02-27-2007, 03:38 PM
I was going to type up some in-depth, elaborate post which examined every idea I had in detail. Then I decided that I really didn't care that much about a thread that will be forgotten in a few days only to come back from the dead in a month or two when someone posts the exact same thing as the OP. My abridged opinion: Lord_Quaymar - Good on you. You make massive amounts of plat off of we little people without the patience to price higher. Bravo. But seriously, what do you do with all that money? This isn't exactly a contest to see who can amass the most plat before the end of Norrath. I for one, and I know I'm not alone in this, really only need enough money to cover potions and repair fees. The only thing that I can see that would actually be worth buying are the collection quest items. But for those of us who really don't like collection quests, once again not alone on this, we don't need much money to get by on. Personally, I hate messing around with the broker. When I first started playing I did the underprice by a couple of copper thing to make all the money I could. It ended up being more of a hassle because probably half the time someone would undercut me by a few copper and I would end up having to babysit my items to make sure that I have the lowest priced item so that I can move it. This got old for me really fast so I just started undercutting by 20-50% just to get rid of it. Apparently, because this thread seems to have popped up, there are others like me who undercut by quite a bit. It's not a matter of not having the patience to wait out the market. It's because that just isn't a fun gameplay for some of us. If you enjoy it, hey, more power to ya. I for one will be out adventuring for quality No-Trade gear as opposed to purchasing sub-par broker trash. When I get back from that I'll be sure to toss up whatever trash I manage to loot onto the broker so that you can continue doing what you like. I'll just take what I can get, stock up on potions and totems (thanks to Karlen and all the other totem makers out there), repair my gear and get back out into the field. And if I happended to loot a pair of SL boots I'd probably toss em up for 10p also. Because honestly, what can't I get for 10p that I could for 21? (rhetorical question by the way <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)

Lord_Quaymar
02-27-2007, 03:50 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>I was going to type up some in-depth, elaborate post which examined every idea I had in detail. Then I decided that I really didn't care that much about a thread that will be forgotten in a few days only to come back from the dead in a month or two when someone posts the exact same thing as the OP. My abridged opinion: Lord_Quaymar - Good on you. You make massive amounts of plat off of we little people without the patience to price higher. Bravo. But seriously, what do you do with all that money? This isn't exactly a contest to see who can amass the most plat before the end of Norrath. I for one, and I know I'm not alone in this, really only need enough money to cover potions and repair fees. The only thing that I can see that would actually be worth buying are the collection quest items. But for those of us who really don't like collection quests, once again not alone on this, we don't need much money to get by on. Personally, I hate messing around with the broker. When I first started playing I did the underprice by a couple of copper thing to make all the money I could. It ended up being more of a hassle because probably half the time someone would undercut me by a few copper and I would end up having to babysit my items to make sure that I have the lowest priced item so that I can move it. This got old for me really fast so I just started undercutting by 20-50% just to get rid of it. Apparently, because this thread seems to have popped up, there are others like me who undercut by quite a bit. It's not a matter of not having the patience to wait out the market. It's because that just isn't a fun gameplay for some of us. If you enjoy it, hey, more power to ya. I for one will be out adventuring for quality No-Trade gear as opposed to purchasing sub-par broker trash. When I get back from that I'll be sure to toss up whatever trash I manage to loot onto the broker so that you can continue doing what you like. I'll just take what I can get, stock up on potions and totems (thanks to Karlen and all the other totem makers out there), repair my gear and get back out into the field. And if I happended to loot a pair of SL boots I'd probably toss em up for 10p also. Because honestly, what can't I get for 10p that I could for 21? (rhetorical question by the way <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />) </blockquote><p> What do I buy? I buy Fabled and Legendary gear, Masters, Adornments that I cannot make and collection items.</p><p>You're right, it isn't a contest about who has the most plat. In fact, nobody on my server knows how much plat I have. The only reason I even bring it up here is to illustrate that if a [Removed for Content] like me can do it, anyone can. Some people in this thread and others have complained about not having enough plat....I point out how it can be made.../shrug.</p><p>Unfortunately, I have now reached a point where there is nothing more to buy as an upgrade unless I pay for loot rights on Relic gear. </p><p>You hate "messing around" with the broker but I love it. Being a banker, investor and internet sales person IRL.....it's what I do and it's about all I have left to do in this game. I have given plat to close friends but I keep most of it in the rare event that some super rare Fabled shows up on the broker that I could use....I will be able to buy it without a problem rather than crying about how rediculous the price is and how it's impossible to make enough money to buy stuff like that....I buy it and pat myself on the back for managing to amass enough plat to buy it lol. </p>

Zmobie
02-27-2007, 03:55 PM
<cite>Lord_Quaymar wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] wrote: <blockquote> If there are a LOT of items up for sale, all withing a tiny increment of each other, say  1 each @ 10 gold, 9g99s, 9g98s, 9g97s..etc... I will price mine signifigantly below it, for instance 8 gold, or perhaps even 5. Why? Because I want to sell it. --Plague </blockquote><p> This is the most common misconception I have seen imho. In this scenario, you would sell it just as fast if you priced it at 9g 95s. There is either a demand for it or there is not and the lowest price will get bought first usually. If you sell any faster than normal, it's because one of the other sellers are taking advantage of your lack of patience and reselling it.</p><p>Patience = exponentially more plat over time.</p></blockquote> /shrug I don't see it that way. If I price at 9g 95s, by the time I log in the next day, someone will have changed their price to 9g 90s. In my experience the only thing that ever sells is the one that is the cheapest. I sell it priced below the old lowest price, get the coin, and have room to put something else up for sale. Which then sells for coin, and frees up the slot for something else. So, I can sell 2, or more, items in the time it would have take to sell the more expensive thing. I don't care if people are buying it up just to resell at a profit: more power to them. If I took the "patient" route, I would very soon have both my sales crates full to the brim of good waiting to be slowly sold, and then start filling up bank slots. I play a ton of alts, and am a packrat, so even with the (truly ridiculous) amount of storage space I have, I just don't have the extra room to store stuff for later sale. --Plague

Lord_Quaymar
02-27-2007, 04:06 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><cite>Lord_Quaymar wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] wrote: <blockquote> If there are a LOT of items up for sale, all withing a tiny increment of each other, say  1 each @ 10 gold, 9g99s, 9g98s, 9g97s..etc... I will price mine signifigantly below it, for instance 8 gold, or perhaps even 5. Why? Because I want to sell it. --Plague </blockquote><p> This is the most common misconception I have seen imho. In this scenario, you would sell it just as fast if you priced it at 9g 95s. There is either a demand for it or there is not and the lowest price will get bought first usually. If you sell any faster than normal, it's because one of the other sellers are taking advantage of your lack of patience and reselling it.</p><p>Patience = exponentially more plat over time.</p></blockquote> /shrug I don't see it that way. If I price at 9g 95s, by the time I log in the next day, someone will have changed their price to 9g 90s. In my experience the only thing that ever sells is the one that is the cheapest. I sell it priced below the old lowest price, get the coin, and have room to put something else up for sale. Which then sells for coin, and frees up the slot for something else. So, I can sell 2, or more, items in the time it would have take to sell the more expensive thing. I don't care if people are buying it up just to resell at a profit: more power to them. If I took the "patient" route, I would very soon have both my sales crates full to the brim of good waiting to be slowly sold, and then start filling up bank slots. I play a ton of alts, and am a packrat, so even with the (truly ridiculous) amount of storage space I have, I just don't have the extra room to store stuff for later sale. --Plague </blockquote> It sounds to me like you need more slots to sell from. As hard as I try, I never run out of room to sell stuff from so that isn't an issue for me..../shrug. I price stuff for 9.95, etc... and sell stuff all the time. Sure, I have to reprice some of them all the time but I don't mind. Also....I use it as a tactic sometimes to trick other sellers into dropping their price to a point where I can buy it and resell for a profit.

Ba
02-27-2007, 04:13 PM
<p>Isn't it obvious?</p><p>When you price below the lowest (by any amount) you are buying a very important spot -- the top spot when the list is sorted by price in ascending order (the default sort and the most commonly used).</p><p>When buying, i'll typically just grab the top item since that is usually the cheapest in my list (unless ive searched for multiple item types or changed the sort order for some reason). Most people probably do the same.</p><p>Thus when selling. I'll typically underprice by 10 silver. On items that im selling for 50g or more I may underprice by a gold or 2, more if im selling at a price higher than that. Trick is to underprice by enough that the consumer immediately sees at a glance that he is saving enough money to bother clicking on your item.</p><p>Who cares what the mythical "market value" is. All I care about is how much someone will pay ME for it and get it out of my broker boxes and earn me some cash NOW.</p><p>Its a free and dynamic market ruled by the most fundamental and basic economic forces, cope with it. Ain't no government to legislate to "protect" whining little rich special interest groups in this economy.</p>

CireNamyn
02-27-2007, 04:19 PM
<cite>Lord_Quaymar wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>I was going to type up some in-depth, elaborate post which examined every idea I had in detail. Then I decided that I really didn't care that much about a thread that will be forgotten in a few days only to come back from the dead in a month or two when someone posts the exact same thing as the OP. My abridged opinion: Lord_Quaymar - Good on you. You make massive amounts of plat off of we little people without the patience to price higher. Bravo. But seriously, what do you do with all that money? This isn't exactly a contest to see who can amass the most plat before the end of Norrath. I for one, and I know I'm not alone in this, really only need enough money to cover potions and repair fees. The only thing that I can see that would actually be worth buying are the collection quest items. But for those of us who really don't like collection quests, once again not alone on this, we don't need much money to get by on. Personally, I hate messing around with the broker. When I first started playing I did the underprice by a couple of copper thing to make all the money I could. It ended up being more of a hassle because probably half the time someone would undercut me by a few copper and I would end up having to babysit my items to make sure that I have the lowest priced item so that I can move it. This got old for me really fast so I just started undercutting by 20-50% just to get rid of it. Apparently, because this thread seems to have popped up, there are others like me who undercut by quite a bit. It's not a matter of not having the patience to wait out the market. It's because that just isn't a fun gameplay for some of us. If you enjoy it, hey, more power to ya. I for one will be out adventuring for quality No-Trade gear as opposed to purchasing sub-par broker trash. When I get back from that I'll be sure to toss up whatever trash I manage to loot onto the broker so that you can continue doing what you like. I'll just take what I can get, stock up on potions and totems (thanks to Karlen and all the other totem makers out there), repair my gear and get back out into the field. And if I happended to loot a pair of SL boots I'd probably toss em up for 10p also. Because honestly, what can't I get for 10p that I could for 21? (rhetorical question by the way <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />) </blockquote><p> What do I buy? I buy Fabled and Legendary gear, Masters, Adornments that I cannot make and collection items.</p><p>You're right, it isn't a contest about who has the most plat. In fact, nobody on my server knows how much plat I have. The only reason I even bring it up here is to illustrate that if a [Removed for Content] like me can do it, anyone can. Some people in this thread and others have complained about not having enough plat....I point out how it can be made.../shrug.</p><p>Unfortunately, I have now reached a point where there is nothing more to buy as an upgrade unless I pay for loot rights on Relic gear. </p><p>You hate "messing around" with the broker but I love it. Being a banker, investor and internet sales person IRL.....it's what I do and it's about all I have left to do in this game. I have given plat to close friends but I keep most of it in the rare event that some super rare Fabled shows up on the broker that I could use....I will be able to buy it without a problem rather than crying about how rediculous the price is and how it's impossible to make enough money to buy stuff like that....I buy it and pat myself on the back for managing to amass enough plat to buy it lol. </p></blockquote> In all seriousness I am glad that you enjoy racking up the plat on the broker. /virtual high-five. From what I noticed from rereading the thread, though, the person who was complaining about not being able to afford getting the high priced stuff on the broker was the same one who was getting undercut. I totally agree that people who don't want to put the time into figuring out how much their gear is actually worth and taking the time to price accordingly in an effort to maximize profits are in no position at all to complain about not being able to afford the higher priced gear. The way I see it is that it's almost a conflict between two different playstyles. The people who want to sell items high in order to make more money and buy the top stuff off the broker and those who have very little interest in the broker and would rather visit it as sparingly as possible who end up undercutting by large margins in an attempt to just get rid of it and make a coin or two in the process. Both completely viable playstyles and neither is better than the other. To be honest, neither is worth complaining about either. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Lord_Quaymar
02-27-2007, 04:25 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>In all seriousness I am glad that you enjoy racking up the plat on the broker. /virtual high-five. From what I noticed from rereading the thread, though, the person who was complaining about not being able to afford getting the high priced stuff on the broker was the same one who was getting undercut. I totally agree that people who don't want to put the time into figuring out how much their gear is actually worth and taking the time to price accordingly in an effort to maximize profits are in no position at all to complain about not being able to afford the higher priced gear. The way I see it is that it's almost a conflict between two different playstyles. The people who want to sell items high in order to make more money and buy the top stuff off the broker and those who have very little interest in the broker and would rather visit it as sparingly as possible who end up undercutting by large margins in an attempt to just get rid of it and make a coin or two in the process. Both completely viable playstyles and neither is better than the other. To be honest, neither is worth complaining about either. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote><p> And a big <b>AMEN </b>to that one....well put.  /bow</p><p>I just try to point out to those that complain about being broke that they don't have to be broke...it's sooooo incredibly easy to make plat in this game, it is truly pathetic to complain that you have none.</p>

Amytheyst
02-27-2007, 04:28 PM
<cite>ratman22 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Well, thanks for the feedback everyone. I have learned some reasons for pricing items on the broker I truly never would have thought of myself. That's what makes life, and EQ 2, so interesting. It would be very boring if everyone thought the same way. I certainly don't agree with everyone here, but it was interesting to read your feedback on this.</p><p>This kind of thing will continue to drive me nuts, but at least I understand people's motivation for doing so a little better. I don't hate anyone for doing so and I would never harass anyone, in or outside of the game, for underpricing me. I was just curious about the thoughts behind this.</p><p>My prediction is that Lord Q, myself and others will continue to make money by buying out the lower priced items and reselling them for whatever people are willing to pay.</p><p>BTW: I'm doing ok money-wise, but I am certainly not rich. I have been able to buy some thing I want/need for my character, but many others are way out of my reach. My main char is a level 31 conjurer now and has some master spells, some adept iiis, and many lower level spells. I just upgraded most of my equipment to increase my INT pool, but I spent about 45g total in doing so. I could increase my INT pool much more, but paying 70g for a single level 30-31 piece of equipment would simply wipe out my cash reserves real quick.</p></blockquote>Question is, you happy? If you scan the thread, youll see all the "variations" have their own level of comfort when it comes to the system and how they "work" it. Despite people at each others throats, theres "love" there. lol. I've always done ok money wise, to the point of (not bragging) having furnished homes for alts on different accounts, never needing to really look at prices if I want something at the time. I did it while still being one of the "heavy" undercutters. Did I do it "faster" than say Quay or someone else like him (method)? Nope. Still did it though, and been happy the whole time. Thats the <i>real</i> point. My passion shows when I look in retrospect at being a "new" player and find the market unreasonable most of the time. Thats why alot of my transactions stay off the broker in the first place, and the customer relationship is what I find the enjoyable part of the business. The system we have promotes the escalated prices in the first place, and its really up to the players to "decide" what they want out of that system. Natural progression in these games for the market to do exactly what we see now- newbie level stuff selling for twink prices. /shug

ChildofHate
02-27-2007, 05:21 PM
i cant believe this topic has spanned 9 pages already...  incredible.

UlteriorModem
02-27-2007, 05:30 PM
<cite>ChildofHate wrote:</cite><blockquote>i cant believe this topic has spanned 9 pages already...  incredible.</blockquote><p> No kidding. But if you look closely there is a pattern in the last few pages.</p><p>It seems to be just a few people bickering back and forth.</p>

TuxDave
02-27-2007, 07:24 PM
I uncut by a lot often.... just to screw up the market and greedy sellers like you. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Ealthina
02-27-2007, 08:51 PM
<cite>ChildofHate wrote:</cite><blockquote>i cant believe this topic has spanned 9 pages already...  incredible.</blockquote> Don't worry.  There will be a new and fresh one tomorrow.

kcirrot
02-28-2007, 01:23 AM
I sell cheap because I just want to sell quickly.  It's that simple.  I don't care so much about the price.  I hardly ever spend any money.

boogar
02-28-2007, 01:30 AM
<p>If you hardly ever spend any money then why do you have to undercut and sell fast,you're post make's no sense.</p><p>  For example I am a Provisioner and noticed that people were selling the Giggleberry drink's for about 3 gold on my server,so I thought "wow" it's actually profitable again.So I made about 100 of them and priced them for the same price that the other Provisioner's were selling them for.The next day I check out the broker to see if I sold anything and some [Removed for Content] was selling them for 1g50s,so much for making a profit.</p>

Chirpaa
02-28-2007, 05:42 AM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><p>If you hardly ever spend any money then why do you have to undercut and sell fast,you're post make's no sense.</p><p>  For example I am a Provisioner and noticed that people were selling the Giggleberry drink's for about 3 gold on my server,so I thought "wow" it's actually profitable again.So I made about 100 of them and priced them for the same price that the other Provisioner's were selling them for.The next day I check out the broker to see if I sold anything and some [Removed for Content] was selling them for 1g50s,so much for making a profit.</p></blockquote><p>I almost never buy anything on the broker.  I sell a LOT on the broker.  And I almost always price low, because alot of pricing makes no sense to me when looked at broadly rather than just on an item by item basis and because not buying much on the broker means not needing masses of money...just need to cover expenses.  Price low to sell fast so that the broker slots never get full and I don't have to put much time into managing saleable inventories.  I'm sure i'm not the only one that looks at it that way.</p><p>You're provisioner example... I make alot of food and drink for the sole purpose of levelling up and then just dump it on the broker cheap to clear it.  Just saying that not everyone who brokers something is doing it to make good money.  Some just want to cover expenses.</p>

Owilliams
02-28-2007, 08:11 AM
<p>I tend to price collection pieces and other stuff I find in my bags after adventuring at about half the lowest price I see on the broker. I don't have the time or inclination to play price wars with the broker campers, I simply want to sell my brokerable loot for a little extra operating cash. Anyone not liking my tactics can simply go pound sand... the economy in this game has no regulations, so I'm not going to view it like a real market.  It's "Marketplace Lite (tm)" on a very open and simple scale running with monopoly money. </p><p>Any Wall Street Wanabees that wish to deal with this system in order to make the big money, feel free.  I don't happen to measure my success in this game by that particular yardstick, nor will I be concerned about inadvertantly upsetting those that do with my selling practices.</p><p>No malice, just simple truth,</p><p>--Orv</p>

DizzyGee
02-28-2007, 09:38 AM
I generally overprice my stuff. I like having the last spot on the list. Eventually the market dries up and I do sell those sisal roots for 50g; talk about a profit. If someone - preferably a solvent buyer - thinks that is too much, they don't have to buy it (quit complaining and start harvesting) or they can contact me to negotiate. When I do undercut (and I occasionally do so to make space), I wish people wouldn't get so uptight about undercutting by 1c. What we (i.e., I and others who do this) are actually trying to do is help keep that "stable price" stable, while obviously attempting to move the goods as quickly as possible. I find it interesting that this generally seems to garner more vexation than "ruining" the going price in undercutting by some larger amount. My two coppers... <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Stevil_Firebrand
02-28-2007, 09:44 AM
<p>I don't like it when people undercut me by vast amounts but what can i do about it? Nothing is the answer.</p><p>I have more of a problem with people who sell collection items in excess of theri worth a million times over. I don't know about you guys but on our server I need 3 Cracked Bones to complete my set and they are up for a plat each.</p><p>Now, I have no desire to own the most expensive Cracked Bone Necklace in the game. But how else am I going to finish my collection?</p><p>Due to their rarity I'd probably play 20-25 gold for each but there's no way on this earth I'm going to degrade msyelf and my money to buying bits for a level 20 collection at those extortionate prices.</p><p>It's just feeding these plat selling muthas what they want.</p>

Karlen
02-28-2007, 11:07 AM
<cite>Stevil_Firebrand wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I have more of a problem with people who sell collection items in excess of theri worth a million times over. I don't know about you guys but on our server I need 3 Cracked Bones to complete my set and they are up for a plat each.</p><p>Now, I have no desire to own the most expensive Cracked Bone Necklace in the game. <b>But how else am I going to finish my collection?</b></p><p>Due to their rarity I'd probably play 20-25 gold for each but there's no way on this earth I'm going to degrade msyelf and my money to buying bits for a level 20 collection at those extortionate prices.</p></blockquote>There is another way to get collection items besides buying them on the broker.  It is a closely guarded secret but I will let you in on it. There are these little "?" symbols on the ground as you wander the countryside.  Stop and pick them up and you will find that they are collectables.   If you believe that the prices on the market are too high, then go and collect items yourself and sell them for that highly inflated price. The broker is there for when you can't be bothered to collect the items yourself.  You need to decide if the price on the broker is higher than the value you put on the time it would take you to hunt for the item in the field. The same goes for crafting raws.   You can harvest them yourself or buy them on the broker -- if the price is "too high" on the broker, that means that it is worth harvesting them to sell on the broker.  If it isn't high enough to make you want to go out and gather the item, then it isn't really "too high", is it? Only you can decide how much your time is worth and what a "too high" price is.

DngrMou
02-28-2007, 11:56 AM
<cite>Stevil_Firebrand wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I don't like it when people undercut me by vast amounts but what can i do about it? Nothing is the answer.</p><p>I have more of a problem with people who sell collection items in excess of theri worth a million times over. I don't know about you guys but on our server I need 3 Cracked Bones to complete my set and they are up for a plat each.</p><p>Now, I have no desire to own the most expensive Cracked Bone Necklace in the game. But how else am I going to finish my collection?</p><p>Due to their rarity I'd probably play 20-25 gold for each but there's no way on this earth I'm going to degrade msyelf and my money to buying bits for a level 20 collection at those extortionate prices.</p><p>It's just feeding these plat selling muthas what they want.</p></blockquote>Well....someone else has already pointed out that you can actually find your own collectables, so I'll focus my attention on your last sentence:  Huh?  People who sell expensive collectables on the broker are plat sellers now?  Is there any imagined crime in this game at all that won't eventually see the malefactors labeled 'plat sellers' by other disgruntled players?  Yeesh....

tyrrous
02-28-2007, 12:33 PM
well i under cut the market simply cause i can and this bout harvestable items who cares what price someone sells for it was free to begin with. if i want to sell lets say fir or sisal for 10 copper so be it. i personally dont care either way. if this offends you so be it. i think the prices are rediculous im gonna price it to where i think i would buy it at. you got to just understand something rite now not everybody in game buys plat. nor can the afford the items on broker. me personally those who complain bout the market prices are dropping. now you may or may not be but i strongly believe that they are the ones that sell plat. and it thier way to get it back and sell it again to that same person over and over again. alot of people believe this is true too. this is why i price lower than norm so the average gammer can have a little piece of what the power gamers have . you like it or not some people dont care bout the in game money its not like its real or anything cause its just pixel. just remember its just a game not real life. so be happy and if you cant be happy oh well so be it.

CirceSiren
03-01-2007, 11:13 PM
<p>Perhaps your started your own downward slide when you checkec the broker and saw another person selling at the same price.  U dropped yours by 5 silver or whatever. Then that person see what you did and they do likewise, undercutting you... Kind of like a domino effect.. Now we bring in ALL the other folks who have the same product.. What do you get? Price slashing...... I have done it myself. Especially if something is sitting and sitting and sitting... And have made some costly mistakes... Selling something I figured was worthless only to find out I could have sold it for mega game plat... (acutally destroyed ribcages found in random treasure chest drops because I needed space for something I thought would benefit me more).  </p><p>I suggest if you dont want to see so MUCH undercutting then leave your goods at your original price.. Or as another person suggested buy all the cheap ones and then put your Monopoly of whatever back up at the price you want....  Much like life or the stock market.... such things are often bullish or..... bearish....  Me? I'm hoarding... ? ...... cuz I think its gonna take off next week! </p>

Amitee
03-02-2007, 12:46 AM
I "generally" match the lowest priced item on the broker before going to bed.  Although the 10% container is causing me a few pricing issues now, but I'm adjusting.   I usually sell stuff pretty well overnight.   Once I price something, then every night that it doesn't sell, I just drop the price without checking up what others are doing.  (Masters I check always - rares I never price too low, as they move no matter what you price them at.) I also DO NOT drop prices from Friday to Sunday.  The reason being is there appears to be alot of "weekenders" that play and they go mad dropping prices over the weekend.  So I don't push my stuff on the weekends, but I sure do buy - gotta love people going on harvesting binges and dropping rares to almost half of what they go for thru the week.  I don't like undercutters anymore than most do, but I gotta live with it and I have adapted. 

InfernalShadow
03-02-2007, 01:11 AM
<p>I usually sell for whatever seems reasonable in my view... what I'd be willing to pay. I've never had "rich" characters, so I sell with that in mind - that others like me also have limited funds. Yes, I COULD make more gold by selling higher and matching market prices, but I'm incredibly impatient, as my playtime is currently rather limited... so yeah, I end up selling my goods for maybe... half of the cost I see others charging? Sometimes I'll match them, again, if I would be willing to buy at that cost myself, but typically things seem overpriced.</p><p>Just my 2cp (slashed from 4cp! ha!) <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

tass
03-02-2007, 01:47 AM
I look at a persons price then I look at what I can get at an npc. If the persons price is what I could get at an npc then I say screw it and sell to an npc however if an npc gives say 2g and a person is charging 8g for the spell I cut my price to 4g. If they sell for 4g I'll mark it 3g. You have to look at what the seller will see whern he looks at it and have confidence that you done really give a dam what you get since your gonna go back out and get a [Removed for Content] load of shinies and spells to sell off anyway. And while 1 guy might get lucky and sell 1 or 2 things for 8 or 10g each while ur undercutting for 3 and 4g. You'll probably sell about 10 to 13 of those 3 to 4g items and still come back with more crap. 100 1G peiced equal a plat. And those gold and silver peices add up and up and up. The true way of greed is to control others greed.

Darkshadow
03-02-2007, 03:21 AM
<p>I am usually a seller, not a buyer, while I have 2 characters that actively tradeskills, I prefer to go out and harvest my own resources, rather than relying on someone else. I make a pretty decent living selling my own crafted wares, as well as a good deal amount of coin on loot drops that I don't need from adventuring. My main toon lives in a 2 room apartment and my alt still lives in  his n00bshack... so that only amounts to 1g per week rent, I use a combination of equipment I loot and my own crafted pieces.... so there is not a lot for me to spend my money on. Now, let's use a low level for example. Iron, my alt is still a low level and he uses iron like it is going out of style... so I go out and mine maybe 2 stacks of iron per day, I always, and I mean ALWAYS find a blackened iron cluster. A quick look of the broker on AB and you'll see that blackened iron usually sells for the area of 20g each, I usually price the ones I find at about 15g... why? Because it WILL sell, sometimes within a matter of minutes, sometimes within hours, definitly the same day. The reason behind this is twofold: #1) I am able to make a decent profit for my having to run around the Commonlands fetching my grind iron. #2) I am able to provide something that someone will need at a decent price... to someone using a blackened iron cluster 15g is not going to put them in the poor house. What you should do is take a look sometime at the broker, look how much the cluster sells for... then check out the prices on the equipment fashioned from it, I sell the cluster for 15g in return the person buying it will sell a blackened iron chest plate for 35g so THEY are profiting from it... Lastly, look at the broker a little later, my 15g cluster will be sold, but so will the ones that were 20g, 25g and so on, so there is room in the market for not only people like me who like to be comfortable, and for people who like to w hore gold</p>

Lord_Quaymar
03-02-2007, 10:51 AM
<cite>Stevil_Firebrand wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I don't like it when people undercut me by vast amounts but what can i do about it? Nothing is the answer.</p><p><b><span style="color: #0000ff">Actually, there is a better answer. Buy the item and sell it at your price. I make lot's of plat that way.</span></b></p><p>I have more of a problem with people who sell collection items in excess of theri worth a million times over. I don't know about you guys but on our server I need 3 Cracked Bones to complete my set and they are up for a plat each.</p><p>Now, I have no desire to own the most expensive Cracked Bone Necklace in the game. But how else am I going to finish my collection?</p><p>Due to their rarity I'd probably play 20-25 gold for each but there's no way on this earth I'm going to degrade msyelf and my money to buying bits for a level 20 collection at those extortionate prices.</p><p><b><span style="color: #0000ff">The reason some of those Cracked Bones sell for so much is because they are rare and can take a lot of time to find. People pay 1-2p all the time for those bones....why? Because in the amount of time that it takes to find those bones, most folks could easily make 3-5p or more elsewhere. So...which would you rather do? Spend many hours if not days looking for a bone so you can save 1p or just buy it and make 3-5p or more doing something else? Is that degrading yourself? LOL...not hardly.</span></b></p><p>It's just feeding these plat selling muthas what they want.</p><p><b><span style="color: #0000ff">Nope...wrong. I don't sell plat and I sell those bones for 1-2p all the time. </span></b></p></blockquote>

Lord_Quaymar
03-02-2007, 11:10 AM
<cite>tyrrous wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Well I under cut the market simply because I can and this about harvestable items who cares what price someone sells it for? It was free to begin with. If I want to sell let's say fir or sisal for 10 copper so be it. I personally dont care either way. If this offends you so be it.</p><p><b><span style="color: #0000ff">Offended? LOL....not in the least. I'm glad there are people like you who do this. Why? Because, with a couple clicks of the mouse, I get free gold and plat from you. So I say....THANKS!  /bow</span></b> </p><p>If I think the prices are rediculous, I'm gonna price it to where I think I would buy it at. You have to just understand something right now...not everybody in game buys plat. Nor can they afford the items on broker.</p><p><b><span style="color: #0000ff">Uhh...here's a clue for ya. Plat is SO pathetically easy to make in this game, you DO NOT need to buy plat to be able to afford things on the broker. Don't be silly.</span></b> </p><p>Me personally, I think those who complain bout the market prices are dropping. Now you may or may not be but I strongly believe that they are the ones that sell plat. and it's their way to get it back and sell it again to that same person over and over again. Alot of people believe this is true too. This is why I price lower than normal so the average gamer can have a little piece of what the power gamers have.</p><p><b><span style="color: #0000ff">You couldn't possibly be further from the truth here. I'm one who buys up your low priced stuff and resells it for normal prices and I have never bought nor sold plat and never will. I do it because it is EASY money. Easy money that I use to buy all those nice things on the broker that you assume people have to buy plat to afford...rofl. So...again....thanks for the free money.  <img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span></b> </p><p>Whether you like it or not some people don't care bout the in game money it's not like its real or anything cause it's just pixel. Just remember, it's just a game not real life. So be happy and if you cant be happy oh well so be it.</p><p><b><span style="color: #0000ff">Pfft....I call BS here. If you truly didn't care, you wouldn't be complaining here about it. Yes, it's just a game so play it for all it's worth. Use common sense and make the plat you SHOULD be making and make yourself happy being able to buy anything you want from the broker rather than complaining how you need to buy plat to afford it.</span></b></p><p><b><span style="color: #0000ff">(Note: All of the horrible grammar and lack of capitalization by the person I am replying to was corrected by me for my own sanity. I'm not perfect either but it's MUCH easier to reply to and read this way imho)</span></b></p></blockquote>

Lord_Quaymar
03-02-2007, 11:17 AM
<cite>InfernalShadow wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I usually sell for whatever seems reasonable in my view... what I'd be willing to pay. I've never had "rich" characters, so I sell with that in mind - that others like me also have limited funds. Yes, I COULD make more gold by selling higher and matching market prices, but I'm incredibly impatient, as my playtime is currently rather limited... so yeah, I end up selling my goods for maybe... half of the cost I see others charging? Sometimes I'll match them, again, if I would be willing to buy at that cost myself, but typically things seem overpriced.</p><p>Just my 2cp (slashed from 4cp! ha!) <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote> Ever stop to think for a minute that it could be that you never had a "rich" character yourself because you insist on giving away the money you should be making by pricing too low? You naively think that you are benefitting those who lack funds but this is most often NOT the case....what is more likely to happen is a more savvy player buys your stuff and resells it for the proper price. So, in reality, you are freely giving away the gold and plat that YOU should be making to those who like to play the market. If you are ok with that...go for it. Folks like me thank you every day as the free plat rolls in.

KudLenka
03-02-2007, 11:45 AM
<p>Well, i always hated the high prices on low level gear, spells and stuff. I know that many of that low level characters are alts and their owners can support the alts with money acquired from high level characters, but i always thought it unfair. So when i sell low level stuff, i sell it for prices i know new players would be able to pay. </p><p>When selling adept spells or attunable gear, i check the broker and sell it for 50-30% less than the lowest offer. As i am not selling for less than NPC merchant would give me, i always make some profit and sell fast. On my newest character which is lvl 23 i made already 30 gold on broker and spent some 5g (low levels are fast to attain, no need to invest into expensive gear for me). If someones buyng the low price stuff and reselling it? So be it but i still hope i made nice spells and gear available to some new player and made his/her day <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

Amytheyst
03-02-2007, 11:50 AM
If everyone continually had that attitude wed see higher prices on the brokers all the time, they are insane enough as it is. The low pricers keep the market fluctuating, and more often than not, <i>force the prices down</i>. This really affects the exchange servers, screw them anyways. On regular servers it allows us to see cheaper prices from time to time. Price things for whatever you want and go by what you feel is fair profit. Your approach of making it sound like they are ripping themselves off and funding your [Removed for Content] freely only works on a few people, and we see pages of you stressing the point. Tell us something new. (The old Huck Finn Psychology) Youre best off sitting back and amassing your fortune Quay, we all know youre in it for that- smoothing one over youd think at first glance you are trying to help people, but really, just trying to guarantee your high returns. A smart person would keep their mouth shut. Its all about <i>keeping</i> the market high for you. /shrug

Lord_Quaymar
03-02-2007, 11:59 AM
[email protected] Bayle wrote: <blockquote>If everyone continually had that attitude wed see higher prices on the brokers all the time, they are insane enough as it is. The low pricers keep the market fluctuating, and more often than not, <i>force the prices down</i>. This really affects the exchange servers, screw them anyways. On regular servers it allows us to see cheaper prices from time to time. Price things for whatever you want and go by what you feel is fair profit. Your approach of making it sound like they are ripping themselves off and funding your [Removed for Content] freely only works on a few people, and we see pages of you stressing the point. Tell us something new. (The old Huck Finn Psychology) Youre best off sitting back and amassing your fortune Quay, we all know youre in it for that- smoothing one over youd think at first glance you are trying to help people, but really, just trying to guarantee your high returns. A smart person would keep their mouth shut. Its all about <i>keeping</i> the market high for you. /shrug </blockquote><p>Well....I am trying to help these people. I'm trying, perhaps in vain, to get through to them so they can help themselves by making more plat. Reading between the lines in many of these posts, it's clear that they are broke themselves and there is no reason for it. Perhaps I am wasting my time but that is ok too...I'm bored at work.../shrug.</p><p>There's no need to "keep my mouth shut" as there is nothing I am saying that is some sort of big secret. Not only that...there are plenty of people that don't bother reading the boards that drastically underprice and give me free plat that there is no need for me to worry. </p>

KudLenka
03-02-2007, 12:35 PM
<cite>Lord_Quaymar wrote:</cite><blockquote> <p>Well....I am trying to help these people. I'm trying, perhaps in vain, to get through to them so they can help themselves by making more plat. Reading between the lines in many of these posts, it's clear that they are broke themselves and there is no reason for it. Perhaps I am wasting my time but that is ok too...I'm bored at work.../shrug.</p><p>There's no need to "keep my mouth shut" as there is nothing I am saying that is some sort of big secret. Not only that...there are plenty of people that don't bother reading the boards that drastically underprice and give me free plat that there is no need for me to worry. </p></blockquote> I may have missed something but i thought we play MMORPG not Monopoly here. As i see it now, some do not, which is ok, i dont have to understand everything. But what i would love to understand is why these gentlemen need to pretend they are helping anyone?

Lord_Quaymar
03-02-2007, 12:51 PM
<cite>KudLenka wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lord_Quaymar wrote:</cite><blockquote> <p>Well....I am trying to help these people. I'm trying, perhaps in vain, to get through to them so they can help themselves by making more plat. Reading between the lines in many of these posts, it's clear that they are broke themselves and there is no reason for it. Perhaps I am wasting my time but that is ok too...I'm bored at work.../shrug.</p><p>There's no need to "keep my mouth shut" as there is nothing I am saying that is some sort of big secret. Not only that...there are plenty of people that don't bother reading the boards that drastically underprice and give me free plat that there is no need for me to worry. </p></blockquote> I may have missed something but i thought we play MMORPG not Monopoly here. As i see it now, some do not, which is ok, i dont have to understand everything. But what i would love to understand is why these gentlemen need to pretend they are helping anyone?</blockquote><p>I think what you are missing is the fact that money (aka Plat) is needed in this game for a multitude of things such as upgrades, repairs, food, drink, etc... What that has to do with Monopoly is beyond me but maybe you can explain that a bit further.</p><p>Some people talk about not being rich, being poor, not having enough plat, etc... in the same post where they also explain how they insist on selling things WAY below the going price. I try to help by pointing out that it isn't necessary to do that and that they may be broke because they charge too little for what they sell....get it now? </p>

Ishya
03-02-2007, 12:55 PM

Lord_Quaymar
03-02-2007, 01:10 PM
[email protected] Bayle wrote: <blockquote><cite>Lord_Quaymar wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] Bayle wrote: <blockquote>If everyone continually had that attitude wed see higher prices on the brokers all the time, they are insane enough as it is. The low pricers keep the market fluctuating, and more often than not, <i>force the prices down</i>. This really affects the exchange servers, screw them anyways. On regular servers it allows us to see cheaper prices from time to time. Price things for whatever you want and go by what you feel is fair profit. Your approach of making it sound like they are ripping themselves off and funding your [Removed for Content] freely only works on a few people, and we see pages of you stressing the point. Tell us something new. (The old Huck Finn Psychology) Youre best off sitting back and amassing your fortune Quay, we all know youre in it for that- smoothing one over youd think at first glance you are trying to help people, but really, just trying to guarantee your high returns. A smart person would keep their mouth shut. Its all about <i>keeping</i> the market high for you. /shrug </blockquote><p>Well....I am trying to help these people. I'm trying, perhaps in vain, to get through to them so they can help themselves by making more plat. Reading between the lines in many of these posts, it's clear that they are broke themselves and there is no reason for it. Perhaps I am wasting my time but that is ok too...I'm bored at work.../shrug.</p><p>There's no need to "keep my mouth shut" as there is nothing I am saying that is some sort of big secret. Not only that...there are plenty of people that don't bother reading the boards that drastically underprice and give me free plat that there is no need for me to worry. </p></blockquote><p>Message edited by Ishya on 03/02/2007 08:02:55. </p></blockquote>Uhh...yeah...absolutely...totally agree with that edit.  <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Ishya
03-02-2007, 01:19 PM
Lord_Quaymar wrote:<blockquote> <p>Well....I am trying to help these people. I'm trying, perhaps in vain, to get through to them so they can help themselves by making more plat. Reading between the lines in many of these posts, it's clear that they are broke themselves and there is no reason for it. Perhaps I am wasting my time but that is ok too...I'm bored at work.../shrug.</p><p>There's no need to "keep my mouth shut" as there is nothing I am saying that is some sort of big secret. Not only that...there are plenty of people that don't bother reading the boards that drastically underprice and give me free plat that there is no need for me to worry. </p></blockquote>what _I_ read between your lines if that you are calling us dumb for selling low. I do not need money, doesn't mean i am broke, i have 80p+ to my name. what we are doing is helping the market. by selling low, we keep prices down. that benefits almost every player on the server. certainly for newbies. and yes i know you cant sell that high anymore, but thats corrected by the lower costs also (basic economics <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ) The <i>only</i> people who don't benefit from it are people like yourself, market-players, player who try to buy low and sell high. So offcourse you don't like it that we sell low and that we should "help" ourself by selling higher, we understand <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> we help the server by keeping lower prices on the market, just stop telling us that you are helping us. you only insult us by that.

Ishya
03-02-2007, 01:26 PM
<cite>Lord_Quaymar wrote:</cite><blockquote>Uhh...yeah...absolutely...totally agree with that edit.  <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote>bah, my boss came in <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Lord_Quaymar
03-02-2007, 01:30 PM
[email protected] Bayle wrote: <blockquote><p>what _I_ read between your lines if that you are calling us dumb for selling low. I do not need money, doesn't mean i am broke, i have 80p+ to my name.</p><p><b><span style="color: #0000ff">Yeah, I see how you could take it that way although that is not how it's meant..../shrug. If you aren't broke then I am not talking to you.</span></b> what we are doing is helping the market. by selling low, we keep prices down. that benefits almost every player on the server. certainly for newbies. and yes i know you cant sell that high anymore, but thats corrected by the lower costs also (basic economics <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ) The <i>only</i> people who don't benefit from it are people like yourself, market-players, player who try to buy low and sell high. So offcourse you don't like it that we sell low and that we should "help" ourself by selling higher, we understand <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p><p><b><span style="color: #0000ff">That's where you are mistaken. It benefits people like me more than anything because I buy at your low price and resell for a nice profit. I could argue the opposite of your newbie comment in that it hurts them because they can't SELL the stuff they find for the higher amounts and, thus, they don't have more money to spend on other things.  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I LOVE when people sell low....like I said....more free money for me!</span></b> we help the server by keeping lower prices on the market, just stop telling us that you are helping us. you only insult us by that.</p><p><b><span style="color: #0000ff">Who do you mean by "us"? You already claim that you aren't broke so you wouldn't be someone that I am trying to help. Also....my prices are almost always the lowest on the server. Figure that one out.  <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span></b> </p></blockquote>

Silca
03-02-2007, 01:34 PM
<cite>ratman22 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I don't get this at all. I see this all the time and it's <b>driving me nuts!</b></p><p>Here is a sample scenario:</p><p>I usually sell sisal roots for around 12g and have sold many of them around this price. It's a good, stable market price. Then, this happens:</p><p>Someone will have up some sisal roots for 12g. I'll put up my sisal roots for 11g 95s. Someone else will put up their's for 11g 85s. Then, someone will put up his/her sisal roots for 7g, and everyone selling their's afterwards tries to go below those prices. So, the person who did the big skip from 11g 85s to 7g just lowered the market price for sisal roots by 4g for everyone. <b>Why, oh why? This just hurts everyone, including this person!</b></p><p>People were buying at 12g, so why go so much lower? If you want to go lower than the lowest currently listed item, just go for 11g 75s or something like that. <b>I just don't get it!</b> Do these people just not want to make money? Are they just stupid? Do they not want to make money to buy ridiculously expensive spells, weapons, armor, etc.?</p></blockquote>I'm sure someone else has already suggested this... but, the reason people do this is because you are overpricing your item.  The economy in this game is out of control.  Just as it always has been.  True market value of the item can't be reasonably guessed by looking at what everyone else is pricing their stuff at for the most part.  Supply and demand.  That's what it's all about.  Flood the market with something and it becomes a cheap commodity.  I for one will always undercut other prices until it gets down the the point where I make more selling it to the vendor than on the broker.  <img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Generic123
03-02-2007, 01:39 PM
<cite>ratman22 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I don't get this at all. I see this all the time and it's <b>driving me nuts!</b></p><p>Here is a sample scenario:</p><p>I usually sell sisal roots for around 12g and have sold many of them around this price. It's a good, stable market price. Then, this happens:</p><p>Someone will have up some sisal roots for 12g. I'll put up my sisal roots for 11g 95s. Someone else will put up their's for 11g 85s. Then, someone will put up his/her sisal roots for 7g, and everyone selling their's afterwards tries to go below those prices. So, the person who did the big skip from 11g 85s to 7g just lowered the market price for sisal roots by 4g for everyone. <b>Why, oh why? This just hurts everyone, including this person!</b></p><p>People were buying at 12g, so why go so much lower? If you want to go lower than the lowest currently listed item, just go for 11g 75s or something like that. <b>I just don't get it!</b> Do these people just not want to make money? Are they just stupid? Do they not want to make money to buy ridiculously expensive spells, weapons, armor, etc.?</p></blockquote><p>If you are going to kick off a price war don't whine when prices collapse.  The other guy isn't going to sit back and let you have all the sales because you undercut him by a few silver, so at the end of the day your choice is to take a share of a good price or take a similar share of a lower price.  You also have no real business complaining about how they conduct that price war, in other words don't sit back and demand they fight a price war according to your rules.  </p><p>For items like rare crafting material if it's taking you longer then a couple days to sell it it's priced to high.  For items where the turnover is slower it can be longer but it there are hundreds of rares changing hands every day, if you are not selling yours your price is to high.  </p><p>For T2 rares 12 gold is probably too much given how easy they are to get and the limited usefulness of the  resulting product.  They have some price support from transmuting at 7 or 8 gold but much beyond that is asking too much IMO.  </p><p>For semi rare collection items there is a lot of market manipulation going on.  If you go out and buy up all the lower priced items of an item what your are doing is creating an artificial scarcity.  This artificial scarcity increases the price of the item so you can sell it back and make money.  </p><p>This is different then spotting an item that is simply undervalued or is going to be more valuable in the future.  If you were to do this in a real commodity market you run the risk of ending up in jail for market manipulation because it's something that id disruptive to the markets proper function of setting the proper price of an item based on supply and demand.</p><p>Unfortunately there isn't a mechanism in game to deal with such manipulation so all you can do is have community enforcement.  If you are buying don't buy from obvious relisters if you are selling flood them and use them as a near infinite market for your products. </p>

Ishya
03-02-2007, 02:01 PM
<cite>Lord_Quaymar wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] Bayle wrote: <blockquote><p>what _I_ read between your lines if that you are calling us dumb for selling low. I do not need money, doesn't mean i am broke, i have 80p+ to my name.</p><p><b><span style="color: #0000ff">Yeah, I see how you could take it that way although that is not how it's meant..../shrug. If you aren't broke then I am not talking to you.</span></b> what we are doing is helping the market. by selling low, we keep prices down. that benefits almost every player on the server. certainly for newbies. and yes i know you cant sell that high anymore, but thats corrected by the lower costs also (basic economics <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ) The <i>only</i> people who don't benefit from it are people like yourself, market-players, player who try to buy low and sell high. So offcourse you don't like it that we sell low and that we should "help" ourself by selling higher, we understand <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p><p><b><span style="color: #0000ff">That's where you are mistaken. It benefits people like me more than anything because I buy at your low price and resell for a nice profit. I could argue the opposite of your newbie comment in that it hurts them because they can't SELL the stuff they find for the higher amounts and, thus, they don't have more money to spend on other things.  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I LOVE when people sell low....like I said....more free money for me!</span></b> </p><p> we help the server by keeping lower prices on the market, just stop telling us that you are helping us. you only insult us by that.</p><p><b><span style="color: #0000ff">Who do you mean by "us"? You already claim that you aren't broke so you wouldn't be someone that I am trying to help. Also....my prices are almost always the lowest on the server. Figure that one out.  <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span></b></p> </blockquote> </blockquote><span style="color: #cc0099">if you had the lowest prices, you couldnt buy "other" lowest prices?, you just keep the prices artificially high (like the other poster said) and that hurts the server economic alot more.</span>

Leafbringer
03-02-2007, 02:26 PM
"what we are doing is helping the market. by selling low, we keep prices down. that benefits almost every player on the server." except sellers, and believe it or not, we're players too! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Maranatha
03-02-2007, 02:28 PM
I will always sell at a price that is less than others on the market...sometimes 20% or more less than other listings. Why do I do it? Because, it makes me happy to know that I've helped someone else.  Sure, I can't control if it is a person that needed a rare but might not afford it, or if it is someone that will buy my items and mark them up.  Makes no difference to me.  Just the fact that I'm getting a bit of cash while making the GAME a bit more enjoyable for someone else is reward enough.

Generic123
03-02-2007, 03:02 PM
<cite>Maranatha wrote:</cite><blockquote>I will always sell at a price that is less than others on the market...sometimes 20% or more less than other listings. Why do I do it? Because, it makes me happy to know that I've helped someone else.  Sure, I can't control if it is a person that needed a rare but might not afford it, or if it is someone that will buy my items and mark them up.  Makes no difference to me.  Just the fact that I'm getting a bit of cash while making the GAME a bit more enjoyable for someone else is reward enough. </blockquote> <p>It's nice that you want to help people, but it's important to realize that selling low like that hurts just as many people as the market manipulators do.  </p><p>As long as you keep the market manipulators in check the selling price for an item will find its way to the point where in balances supply with demand.  If you price too low you kick off price wars that hurt the people producing those items while at the same time increasing the demand for them.  The result is that people stop producing that item just as demand for it is increasing.  This means that instead of being available at a high but fair price people can't get that item at all.  </p><p>In the absence of market manipulators high prices are actually a good thing for everyone.  The obviously benefit producers of an item but this in turn stimulates production of items to the point where everyone who wants one can get one.  My suggestion is that if you really want to help people work at making items more available not less expensive.  Less expensive will follow as long as items are available, desirable to produce and (as always) the market manipulators are held in check.</p>

KudLenka
03-02-2007, 03:38 PM
the more i read here, the more i am happy to be able to sell for prices i find reasonable. I might be weird, but i just enjoy knowing that it irks certain people

Leafbringer
03-02-2007, 05:34 PM
Doesn't really irk, just makes it a lot less meaningless to go hunting for good stuff.  It actually hurts the economy when an item priced at 20g, with everyone trying to fairly price around it, suddenly have to contend with the one dork that sells for 4g, thereby making future sellers place the item at 3g, then 2g, then that item you worked (either tradeskill or questing/hunting) your butt off for was a big waste of time. If you enjoy "irking" people who get aggravated that the normal price of something has just been reduced by 300+%, then go on "irking".  It really just hurts the economy in the end.

Jesdyr
03-02-2007, 05:36 PM
I often undercut just to sell the item quickly. Sometimes I just dont want the item to sit there on the broker forever so if I know the item doesnt tend to move quickly, I will sell it for less to attempt to get that sale. I will also buy things that are listed low and relist them at higher prices for things that I know sell very quickly.

Natak
03-02-2007, 06:23 PM
<cite>Leafbringer wrote:</cite><blockquote>Doesn't really irk, just makes it a lot less meaningless to go hunting for good stuff.  It actually hurts the economy when an item priced at 20g, with everyone trying to fairly price around it, suddenly have to contend with the one dork that sells for 4g, thereby making future sellers place the item at 3g, then 2g, then that item you worked (either tradeskill or questing/hunting) your butt off for was a big waste of time. If you enjoy "irking" people who get aggravated that the normal price of something has just been reduced by 300+%, then go on "irking".  It really just hurts the economy in the end. </blockquote>Actually, what hurts the "economy" is overpricing an item because "everyone has alts that can farm for the money". A level 20 adept spell should not cost 1 plat. (example not representative of actual items sold)

Lord_Quaymar
03-02-2007, 06:41 PM
[email protected] Bayle wrote: <blockquote><span style="color: #cc0099">if you had the lowest prices, you couldnt buy "other" lowest prices?, you just keep the prices artificially high (like the other poster said) and that hurts the server economic alot more.</span> </blockquote><p>Nope...here...let me illustrate what I'm talking about... I will use a fictional item, Fuzzy Widget, so we don't get caught up in whether said item is worth xxx or not. This is an actual scenario that I just ran into....just with names changed.</p><p>Player A - 1 Fuzzy Widget - 4p</p><p>Player B - 2 Fuzzy Widgets - 2.95p each</p><p>Player C - 1 Fuzzy Widget - 2.90p</p><p>Player D - 4 Fuzzy Widgets - 2.75p each</p><p>Player E - 3 Fuzzy Widgets - 2.60p each</p><p>My Price - 2 Fuzzy Widgets - 2.50p each</p><p>Now, assuming these widgets do sell regularly (they do), one would say that the "normal" price range is 2.5 - 4p right? Week in and week out, these items sell regularly within this range. Then some goofball comes along and decides that these are no longer worth 2.5p - 4p just because he/she thinks so and prices his her widget...</p><p>Goofball - 1 Fuzzy Widget - 75g</p><p>Naturally, I snatch up Goofball's widget and add it to my inventory and within a couple hours I sold all 3 of mine. Thanks to Goofball, I made an extra 1.75p just for clicking my mouse a couple times. THAT'S the type scenario that I am referring to and it happens ALL the time.</p>

Kannibal
03-02-2007, 07:12 PM
I agree.  If you think someone priced theirs too low and screwed you up, just buy theirs out and resell it in a stack.  Not hurting anyone but the original seller, and the status-quo for price of said item remains relatively unchanged.

Ishya
03-02-2007, 07:39 PM
<cite>Leafbringer wrote:</cite><blockquote>"what we are doing is helping the market. by selling low, we keep prices down. that benefits almost every player on the server." except sellers, and believe it or not, we're players too! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote> if you buy at low prices, it benefits you too; unless the only thing you do is selling.. but i bet you need upgrades and other broker things aswell <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> if prices are lower you wont need as much money neither.

Ishya
03-02-2007, 08:06 PM
<cite>Generic123 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Maranatha wrote:</cite><blockquote>I will always sell at a price that is less than others on the market...sometimes 20% or more less than other listings. Why do I do it? Because, it makes me happy to know that I've helped someone else.  Sure, I can't control if it is a person that needed a rare but might not afford it, or if it is someone that will buy my items and mark them up.  Makes no difference to me.  Just the fact that I'm getting a bit of cash while making the GAME a bit more enjoyable for someone else is reward enough. </blockquote> <p>It's nice that you want to help people, but it's important to realize that selling low like that hurts just as many people as the market manipulators do.  </p><p>As long as you keep the market manipulators in check the selling price for an item will find its way to the point where in balances supply with demand.  If you price too low you kick off price wars that hurt the people producing those items while at the same time increasing the demand for them.  The result is that people stop producing that item just as demand for it is increasing.  This means that instead of being available at a high but fair price people can't get that item at all.  </p><span style="color: #9900cc">thats not entirely true, most ofthe items on the broker are from drops, drops aren't "produced" unless you are a farmer, but then you also deserves the lesser  income :p, the demand wont suddenly increase, but the potential buyers will increase. (the point oft trying to lower the prices)  farmers will stop farming them if the price drops down which is better too. if you talk about "produced" items such as in crafting, you can leave crafted goods out of this system, as crafters have a monopoly on their wares. a jeweller wont sell armor <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  i am only referring to drops.</span> <p>In the absence of market manipulators high prices are actually a good thing for everyone.  The obviously benefit producers of an item but this in turn stimulates production of items to the point where everyone who wants one can get one.  My suggestion is that if you really want to help people work at making items more available not less expensive.  Less expensive will follow as long as items are available, desirable to produce and (as always) the market manipulators are held in check.  </p><span style="color: #9900cc"> so you are suggesting everyone should farm?</span> </blockquote>

Ganlu
03-03-2007, 12:21 AM
<cite>Leafbringer wrote:</cite><blockquote>Doesn't really irk, just makes it a lot less meaningless to go hunting for good stuff.  It actually hurts the economy when an item priced at 20g, with everyone trying to fairly price around it, suddenly have to contend with the one dork that sells for 4g, thereby making future sellers place the item at 3g, then 2g, then that item you worked (either tradeskill or questing/hunting) your butt off for was a big waste of time. If you enjoy "irking" people who get aggravated that the normal price of something has just been reduced by 300+%, then go on "irking".  It really just hurts the economy in the end. </blockquote> Who decides the fair price was 20g? If some "dork" prices an item way below what you think it's worth, then it will be bought quickly, and your prices will normalize back to the level you want.  If many people price it at that, then maybe your idea of a "fair" price doesn't match the server's economy. By the way, there seems to be a huge misunderstanding of economics if you think that's "hurting" the economy.

Lord_Quaymar
03-03-2007, 11:12 AM
[email protected] Bayle wrote: <blockquote><p><span style="color: #9900cc">thats not entirely true, most ofthe items on the broker are from drops, drops aren't "produced" unless you are a farmer, but then you also deserves the lesser  income :p, the demand wont suddenly increase, but the potential buyers will increase. (the point oft trying to lower the prices)  farmers will stop farming them if the price drops down which is better too.</span></p><p><span style="color: #9900cc"><b><span style="color: #0000ff">If the farmers stop farming that item, supply will decrease and cause prices to go back up.  <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span></b> </span></p><p><span style="color: #9900cc">so you are suggesting everyone should farm?</span></p><p><b><span style="color: #0000ff">Anyone who plays this game "farms" at one point or another. I "farm" collectibles, raws and rares, faction, SP, etc... all the time. "Farming" is an integral part of the game. Heck, even raiders "farm" the drops to gear up their guildies so they can "farm" even tougher raid zones for better gear so they can "farm" even tougher raid zones..... lol.</span></b> </p></blockquote>

StormCinder
03-03-2007, 12:08 PM
<p>disclaimer:  only read 4-5 pages of the thread</p><p> Playing as a casual player, I don't allocate my time to 'playing the market' for money.  I play for questing and adventure and TSing furniture for my apartment.  I don't need a ton of money, and I dump stuff on the market to clear my inventory and to get some spending money.  I determine where it changes from red to white, bump by like 10% and go.  Playing the economy and determining profit margins, markups, discounts, etc is not why I play.  I get enough of that at work.  I get little enough time to play as it is.  </p><p> You play your game, I'll play mine.  You make plat off me...and that's what your game is about, fine.  Me?  I'll be out crawling around a dungeon somewhere. <img src="/smilies/49869fe8223507d7223db3451e5321aa.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>SC</p>

Lord_Quaymar
03-03-2007, 12:17 PM
<cite>StormCinder wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>disclaimer:  only read 4-5 pages of the thread</p><p> Playing as a casual player, I don't allocate my time to 'playing the market' for money.  I play for questing and adventure and TSing furniture for my apartment.  I don't need a ton of money, and I dump stuff on the market to clear my inventory and to get some spending money.  I determine where it changes from red to white, bump by like 10% and go.  Playing the economy and determining profit margins, markups, discounts, etc is not why I play.  I get enough of that at work.  I get little enough time to play as it is.  </p><p> You play your game, I'll play mine.  You make plat off me...and that's what your game is about, fine.  Me?  I'll be out crawling around a dungeon somewhere. <img src="/smilies/49869fe8223507d7223db3451e5321aa.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>SC</p></blockquote><p>Yep...nothing wrong with that.</p><p>Me? I make the easy plat and THEN go crawl around a dungeon somewhere.  <img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p>

Ishya
03-03-2007, 01:32 PM
<cite>Lord_Quaymar wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] Bayle wrote: <blockquote><p><span style="color: #9900cc">thats not entirely true, most ofthe items on the broker are from drops, drops aren't "produced" unless you are a farmer, but then you also deserves the lesser  income :p, the demand wont suddenly increase, but the potential buyers will increase. (the point oft trying to lower the prices)  farmers will stop farming them if the price drops down which is better too.</span></p><p><span style="color: #9900cc"><b><span style="color: #0000ff">If the farmers stop farming that item, supply will decrease and cause prices to go back up.  <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span></b> </span></p><p><span style="color: #9900cc">so you are suggesting everyone should farm?</span></p><p><b><span style="color: #0000ff">Anyone who plays this game "farms" at one point or another. I "farm" collectibles, raws and rares, faction, SP, etc... all the time. "Farming" is an integral part of the game. Heck, even raiders "farm" the drops to gear up their guildies so they can "farm" even tougher raid zones for better gear so they can "farm" even tougher raid zones..... lol.</span></b> </p></blockquote> </blockquote> farming/botting to get gold is a whole thing different then farming faction/sp/to equip a raid, market is nothing to do with that. i'd like to see a guildthat farms the zones to be able to sell them for high prices... i doubt it will exist a few days. they only sell "left-overs"

Lord_Quaymar
03-03-2007, 02:11 PM
[email protected] Bayle wrote: <blockquote><cite>Lord_Quaymar wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] Bayle wrote: <blockquote><p><span style="color: #9900cc">thats not entirely true, most ofthe items on the broker are from drops, drops aren't "produced" unless you are a farmer, but then you also deserves the lesser  income :p, the demand wont suddenly increase, but the potential buyers will increase. (the point oft trying to lower the prices)  farmers will stop farming them if the price drops down which is better too.</span></p><p><span style="color: #9900cc"><b><span style="color: #0000ff">If the farmers stop farming that item, supply will decrease and cause prices to go back up.  <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span></b> </span></p><p><span style="color: #9900cc">so you are suggesting everyone should farm?</span></p><p><b><span style="color: #0000ff">Anyone who plays this game "farms" at one point or another. I "farm" collectibles, raws and rares, faction, SP, etc... all the time. "Farming" is an integral part of the game. Heck, even raiders "farm" the drops to gear up their guildies so they can "farm" even tougher raid zones for better gear so they can "farm" even tougher raid zones..... lol.</span></b> </p></blockquote> </blockquote> farming/botting to get gold is a whole thing different then farming faction/sp/to equip a raid, market is nothing to do with that. i'd like to see a guildthat farms the zones to be able to sell them for high prices... i doubt it will exist a few days. they only sell "left-overs" </blockquote><p>I think you missed my point. The point is that everyone, including raiding guilds, farms for one reason or another. Also....there are at least 3 guilds on my server that are selling their "leftovers" for 100 - 200p each for fabled stuff but that isn't what I was referring to when I mentioned it above, I meant they farm the drops to upgrade their guildies...you did read that part too right? Or did you miss that? It isn't really relevant though...at least not to the point I was trying to make.</p><p>Farming for gold or plat is something that we ALL do from time to time in order to get money for upgrades, repairs, food, drink, etc... The only difference is to what extent you farm and how much time you spend doing it. Again...there is NOTHING wrong with farming plat....it's what you do with it after you farm it that can be a problem.  </p>

Ishya
03-03-2007, 02:39 PM
<cite>Lord_Quaymar wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] Bayle wrote: <blockquote><cite>Lord_Quaymar wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] Bayle wrote: <blockquote><p><span style="color: #9900cc">thats not entirely true, most ofthe items on the broker are from drops, drops aren't "produced" unless you are a farmer, but then you also deserves the lesser  income :p, the demand wont suddenly increase, but the potential buyers will increase. (the point oft trying to lower the prices)  farmers will stop farming them if the price drops down which is better too.</span></p><p><span style="color: #9900cc"><b><span style="color: #0000ff">If the farmers stop farming that item, supply will decrease and cause prices to go back up.  <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span></b> </span></p><p><span style="color: #9900cc">so you are suggesting everyone should farm?</span></p><p><b><span style="color: #0000ff">Anyone who plays this game "farms" at one point or another. I "farm" collectibles, raws and rares, faction, SP, etc... all the time. "Farming" is an integral part of the game. Heck, even raiders "farm" the drops to gear up their guildies so they can "farm" even tougher raid zones for better gear so they can "farm" even tougher raid zones..... lol.</span></b> </p></blockquote> </blockquote> farming/botting to get gold is a whole thing different then farming faction/sp/to equip a raid, market is nothing to do with that. i'd like to see a guildthat farms the zones to be able to sell them for high prices... i doubt it will exist a few days. they only sell "left-overs" </blockquote><p>I think you missed my point. The point is that everyone, including raiding guilds, farms for one reason or another. Also....there are at least 3 guilds on my server that are selling their "leftovers" for 100 - 200p each for fabled stuff but that isn't what I was referring to when I mentioned it above, I meant they farm the drops to upgrade their guildies...you did read that part too right? Or did you miss that? It isn't really relevant though...at least not to the point I was trying to make.</p><p><u><b>Farming for gold or plat is something that we ALL do from time to time in order to get money for upgrades, repairs, food, drink,</b></u> etc... The only difference is to what extent you farm and how much time you spend doing it. Again...there is NOTHING wrong with farming plat....it's what you do with it after you farm it that can be a problem.  </p></blockquote>if prices go down you wont need to get as much gold for those upgrades,food,drink. that is my point all along   and "professional" farmers(aka bot groups etc) will get less income which is good

Lord_Quaymar
03-03-2007, 02:58 PM
[email protected] Bayle wrote: <blockquote>if prices go down you wont need to get as much gold for those upgrades,food,drink. that is my point all along   and "professional" farmers(aka bot groups etc) will get less income which is good </blockquote> I get what you're saying there but guess who is one of the largest contributors to prices dropping? You got it....farmers. Both legit and illegit alike produce a large supply of items which drives the prices down. Drastic undercutting by 1 or 2 people has very little effect in comparison. 

Leafbringer
03-05-2007, 01:14 PM
cool let's just sell everything for a few copper then and call it a day.  screw the economy<img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Udainius
03-05-2007, 02:56 PM
<cite>ratman22 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I don't get this at all. I see this all the time and it's <b>driving me nuts!</b></p><p>Here is a sample scenario:</p><p>I usually sell sisal roots for around 12g and have sold many of them around this price. It's a good, stable market price. Then, this happens:</p><p>Someone will have up some sisal roots for 12g. I'll put up my sisal roots for 11g 95s. Someone else will put up their's for 11g 85s. Then, someone will put up his/her sisal roots for 7g, and everyone selling their's afterwards tries to go below those prices. So, the person who did the big skip from 11g 85s to 7g just lowered the market price for sisal roots by 4g for everyone. <b>Why, oh why? This just hurts everyone, including this person!</b></p><p>People were buying at 12g, so why go so much lower? If you want to go lower than the lowest currently listed item, just go for 11g 75s or something like that. <b>I just don't get it!</b> Do these people just not want to make money? Are they just stupid? Do they not want to make money to buy ridiculously expensive spells, weapons, armor, etc.?</p></blockquote><p>The reason may be very simple and may not be because of the person's intentional reduction of the price. The game as I understand it only allows the latest character on an account logged in to have items on the market. So one day character (A) was logged in and the price for the roots were going for 7g 25s so he priced the one he wanted to sell for 7g. Then he logged out and logged in character (B) on the same account to play. Character (A)s broker items are now no longer selling or visible on the broker. A couple of weeks go by and the price of the root has now been selling for 12g on average and character (A) logs back in. He now unknowingly has a root selling on the broker for 7g as it shows back up on the market.  Someone else goes to sell thier root and sees the lower price. They price to sell just below the 7g.</p><p>I can not find a clear definition of what the Broker vs Character vs Server rules are. In fact I found this post because of my search for them. I do however feel that it is remiss of SOE to have this mechanism in place and not have the game itself warn that this condition is happening.  I have played this game since beta and although I have several characters I couldn't figure out why some would sell items while others didn't.  I also asked in guild to see if anyone was aware and only one individual out of several was aware of this game mechanism. </p>

Natak
03-05-2007, 03:00 PM
<cite>Udainius wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ratman22 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I don't get this at all. I see this all the time and it's <b>driving me nuts!</b></p><p>Here is a sample scenario:</p><p>I usually sell sisal roots for around 12g and have sold many of them around this price. It's a good, stable market price. Then, this happens:</p><p>Someone will have up some sisal roots for 12g. I'll put up my sisal roots for 11g 95s. Someone else will put up their's for 11g 85s. Then, someone will put up his/her sisal roots for 7g, and everyone selling their's afterwards tries to go below those prices. So, the person who did the big skip from 11g 85s to 7g just lowered the market price for sisal roots by 4g for everyone. <b>Why, oh why? This just hurts everyone, including this person!</b></p><p>People were buying at 12g, so why go so much lower? If you want to go lower than the lowest currently listed item, just go for 11g 75s or something like that. <b>I just don't get it!</b> Do these people just not want to make money? Are they just stupid? Do they not want to make money to buy ridiculously expensive spells, weapons, armor, etc.?</p></blockquote><p>The reason may be very simple and may not be because of the person's intentional reduction of the price. The game as I understand it only allows the latest character on an account logged in to have items on the market. So one day character (A) was logged in and the price for the roots were going for 7g 25s so he priced the one he wanted to sell for 7g. Then he logged out and logged in character (B) on the same account to play. Character (A)s broker items are now no longer selling or visible on the broker. </p><p><span style="color: #ffff00">Wrong. You can have only one SELLER, but as long as you meet that requirement you can log on any other character to play. Your broker will still be selling.</span> </p><p>A couple of weeks go by and the price of the root has now been selling for 12g on average and character (A) logs back in. He now unknowingly has a root selling on the broker for 7g as it shows back up on the market.  Someone else goes to sell thier root and sees the lower price. They price to sell just below the 7g.</p><p>I can not find a clear definition of what the Broker vs Character vs Server rules are. In fact I found this post because of my search for them. I do however feel that it is remiss of SOE to have this mechanism in place and not have the game itself warn that this condition is happening.  I have played this game since beta and although I have several characters I couldn't figure out why some would sell items while others didn't.  I also asked in guild to see if anyone was aware and only one individual out of several was aware of this game mechanism. </p></blockquote>Again. You can have 1 character SELLING, and play any other character you want without kicking your broker off of the merchant boards.

dartie
03-05-2007, 03:18 PM
<cite>Udainius wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I do however feel that it is remiss of SOE to have this mechanism in place and not have the game itself warn that this condition is happening.  I have played this game since beta and although I have several characters I couldn't figure out why some would sell items while others didn't.  I also asked in guild to see if anyone was aware and only one individual out of several was aware of this game mechanism. </p></blockquote><p> /wishful thinking on . . .</p><p>I think SOE is justified in not issuing in-game warnings about this sort of thing because they do such a great job of providing all the information you need about such matters in the up-to-date manual that they included with the EoF expansion.</p><p>/wishful thinking off.</p><p>What's that?  You say that after you bought the game before EoF and then bought it again with the EoF expansion and nowhere encountered any documentation more substantial than a quick-start guide?  That sounds crazy.  Who would buy a game whose manufacturer can't even be bothered to include documentation of the rules?</p>

Natak
03-05-2007, 03:29 PM
<cite>dartie wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Udainius wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I do however feel that it is remiss of SOE to have this mechanism in place and not have the game itself warn that this condition is happening.  I have played this game since beta and although I have several characters I couldn't figure out why some would sell items while others didn't.  I also asked in guild to see if anyone was aware and only one individual out of several was aware of this game mechanism. </p></blockquote><p> /wishful thinking on . . .</p><p>I think SOE is justified in not issuing in-game warnings about this sort of thing because they do such a great job of providing all the information you need about such matters in the up-to-date manual that they included with the EoF expansion.</p><p>/wishful thinking off.</p><p>What's that?  You say that after you bought the game before EoF and then bought it again with the EoF expansion and nowhere encountered any documentation more substantial than a quick-start guide?  That sounds crazy.  Who would buy a game whose manufacturer can't even be bothered to include documentation of the rules?</p></blockquote>oh, you mean this documentation which anyone can get, even before they buy the game? :::: <a href="http://everquest2.station.sony.com/manual/EQII_Manual.pdf" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://everquest2.station.sony.com/...EQII_Manual.pdf</a>

Kaalenarc
03-05-2007, 03:35 PM
<p>seems to be Economics 101 isnt it? The prices reflect what the markey will bear.12g for a t2 rare is, imho grossly overpriced.  lower ur prices or go all "wal*Mart" and buy out the competition.</p>

Scald
03-05-2007, 03:43 PM
<cite>Natak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>dartie wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Udainius wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I do however feel that it is remiss of SOE to have this mechanism in place and not have the game itself warn that this condition is happening.  I have played this game since beta and although I have several characters I couldn't figure out why some would sell items while others didn't.  I also asked in guild to see if anyone was aware and only one individual out of several was aware of this game mechanism. </p></blockquote><p> /wishful thinking on . . .</p><p>I think SOE is justified in not issuing in-game warnings about this sort of thing because they do such a great job of providing all the information you need about such matters in the up-to-date manual that they included with the EoF expansion.</p><p>/wishful thinking off.</p><p>What's that?  You say that after you bought the game before EoF and then bought it again with the EoF expansion and nowhere encountered any documentation more substantial than a quick-start guide?  That sounds crazy.  Who would buy a game whose manufacturer can't even be bothered to include documentation of the rules?</p></blockquote>oh, you mean this documentation which anyone can get, even before they buy the game? :::: <a href="http://everquest2.station.sony.com/manual/EQII_Manual.pdf" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://everquest2.station.sony.com/...EQII_Manual.pdf</a> </blockquote>You mean the documentation that doesn't explain the 1 seller at a timer per server? or do you mean the documentation that still talks about fences? That manual can actually cause more harm then good due to game changes and lack of information.

Natak
03-05-2007, 03:51 PM
<cite>Scald wrote:</cite><blockquote>You mean the documentation that doesn't explain the 1 seller at a timer per server? or do you mean the documentation that still talks about fences? That manual can actually cause more harm then good due to game changes and lack of information. </blockquote>Yes, the docuementation does need updating. (Whjch is funny, because they do update it.. with the expansion stuff at the end. However they neglected to go back and update the base game mechanics that change due to Live Updates) However, the statement was that the manufacturer did not provide ANY documentation. This is proven false by the above link.

Badaxe Ba
03-05-2007, 04:00 PM
<cite>Natak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>dartie wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Udainius wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I do however feel that it is remiss of SOE to have this mechanism in place and not have the game itself warn that this condition is happening.  I have played this game since beta and although I have several characters I couldn't figure out why some would sell items while others didn't.  I also asked in guild to see if anyone was aware and only one individual out of several was aware of this game mechanism. </p></blockquote><p> /wishful thinking on . . .</p><p>I think SOE is justified in not issuing in-game warnings about this sort of thing because they do such a great job of providing all the information you need about such matters in the up-to-date manual that they included with the EoF expansion.</p><p>/wishful thinking off.</p><p>What's that?  You say that after you bought the game before EoF and then bought it again with the EoF expansion and nowhere encountered any documentation more substantial than a quick-start guide?  That sounds crazy.  Who would buy a game whose manufacturer can't even be bothered to include documentation of the rules?</p></blockquote>oh, you mean this documentation which anyone can get, even before they buy the game? :::: <a href="http://everquest2.station.sony.com/manual/EQII_Manual.pdf" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://everquest2.station.sony.com/...EQII_Manual.pdf</a> </blockquote><p>Well I'll be buggered.  When I bought my EOF copy, the rules at that time accompanying the download was the same as my original copy of EQ2.  I did check to see if anything new had been added, and much to my shock  of being surprised, it hadn't at the time.  I'm glad to see its been updated.  Of course, the assumption that someone would look up the rules prior to purchasing the game only works towards the definition of [I cannot control my vocabulary]-u-me, but thats beside the point.  </p><p>I do know that the reference in the rules to premium features at eq2players is completely false advertising, as the guild chat and search features that cost extra have been non-functional or just plain broken since 11/06.</p><p>Back to the topic however, EQ2 market is not a fixed price economy.  Individuals can and will sell at whatever price they think they can get.  To the person stating that amongst the alts, the seller alt continues to sell if you switch characters, this is true up to the point that you look at a broker with the different character.</p><p>PS</p><p>I thought it was funny that the user agreement and software license at the end was 4 pages long.  That should be at the beginning IMO. /joking</p>

dartie
03-05-2007, 04:01 PM
<cite>Scald wrote:</cite><blockquote>You mean the documentation that doesn't explain the 1 seller at a timer per server? or do you mean the documentation that still talks about fences? That manual can actually cause more harm then good due to game changes and lack of information. </blockquote><p> I think some people are easily impressed by labels.  The word "manual" is right there in the web address, so it must be a manual--even if it's just 70 pages of screenshots, vague guidelines, and outdated gibberish.</p><p>Check out p. 4 of that purported "manual," which devotes not quite one page to character attributes.  Again, this is my idea of a quick start guide, not a manual.  A quick-start guide is designed to get you playing; a manual is designed to show you how things work.  A quick-start guide can tell you what the main characteristics are for the various classes, but a manual will tell me what intelligence does for rangers and assassins, where the stat caps are set, and, just to stay in keeping with Scald's response, a real manual would specify the conditions under which certain characters' stores would stay open on a certain players account instead of just showing me screenshots of the broker screen and suggesting that I use the buy and sell tabs. </p><p>A real manual tells you what you can't find out by just playing the game.  I'm not trying to single out SOE by complaining that there's no legit manual with this game.  (It seems that a lot of online gaming companies are leaving the writing of manuals to publishers like Prima, and I guess the Sony shareholders appreciate that SOE is sparing itself an unnecessary expense.  But all you have to do is compare what appears from Natak's link to what the documentation one finds bundled with a copy of Microsoft Word or Quicken to see that it is little more than a quick-start guide--though it can call itself whatever it likes.  </p>

Natak
03-05-2007, 04:06 PM
<cite>dartie wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Scald wrote:</cite><blockquote>You mean the documentation that doesn't explain the 1 seller at a timer per server? or do you mean the documentation that still talks about fences? That manual can actually cause more harm then good due to game changes and lack of information. </blockquote><p> I think some people are easily impressed by labels.  The word "manual" is right there in the web address, so it must be a manual--even if it's just 70 pages of screenshots, vague guidelines, and outdated gibberish.</p><p>Check out p. 4 of that purported "manual," which devotes not quite one page to character attributes.  Again, this is my idea of a quick start guide, not a manual.  A quick-start guide is designed to get you playing; a manual is designed to show you how things work.  A quick-start guide can tell you what the main characteristics are for the various classes, but a manual will tell me what intelligence does for rangers and assassins, where the stat caps are set, and, just to stay in keeping with Scald's response, a real manual would specify the conditions under which certain characters' stores would stay open on a certain players account instead of just showing me screenshots of the broker screen and suggesting that I use the buy and sell tabs. </p><p>A real manual tells you what you can't find out by just playing the game.  I'm not trying to single out SOE by complaining that there's no legit manual with this game.  (It seems that a lot of online gaming companies are leaving the writing of manuals to publishers like Prima, and I guess the Sony shareholders appreciate that SOE is sparing itself an unnecessary expense.  But all you have to do is compare what appears from Natak's link to what the documentation one finds bundled with a copy of Microsoft Word or Quicken to see that it is little more than a quick-start guide--though it can call itself whatever it likes.  </p></blockquote>That is why there is a community. Have you ever read the third party books that give "spoilers" for eq? They are cost prohibitive to make per box. Prima provides a guide, as well as third party web sites. And comparing a video game to a Office product (which doesn't give you everything either.. believe me) is a bit ridiculous If a person cannot be bothered to look up the information.. that is on them.

Lord_Quaymar
03-05-2007, 05:26 PM
<cite>Natak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>dartie wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Scald wrote:</cite><blockquote>You mean the documentation that doesn't explain the 1 seller at a timer per server? or do you mean the documentation that still talks about fences? That manual can actually cause more harm then good due to game changes and lack of information. </blockquote><p> I think some people are easily impressed by labels.  The word "manual" is right there in the web address, so it must be a manual--even if it's just 70 pages of screenshots, vague guidelines, and outdated gibberish.</p><p>Check out p. 4 of that purported "manual," which devotes not quite one page to character attributes.  Again, this is my idea of a quick start guide, not a manual.  A quick-start guide is designed to get you playing; a manual is designed to show you how things work.  A quick-start guide can tell you what the main characteristics are for the various classes, but a manual will tell me what intelligence does for rangers and assassins, where the stat caps are set, and, just to stay in keeping with Scald's response, a real manual would specify the conditions under which certain characters' stores would stay open on a certain players account instead of just showing me screenshots of the broker screen and suggesting that I use the buy and sell tabs. </p><p>A real manual tells you what you can't find out by just playing the game.  I'm not trying to single out SOE by complaining that there's no legit manual with this game.  (It seems that a lot of online gaming companies are leaving the writing of manuals to publishers like Prima, and I guess the Sony shareholders appreciate that SOE is sparing itself an unnecessary expense.  But all you have to do is compare what appears from Natak's link to what the documentation one finds bundled with a copy of Microsoft Word or Quicken to see that it is little more than a quick-start guide--though it can call itself whatever it likes.  </p></blockquote>That is why there is a community. Have you ever read the third party books that give "spoilers" for eq? They are cost prohibitive to make per box. Prima provides a guide, as well as third party web sites. And comparing a video game to a Office product (which doesn't give you everything either.. believe me) is a bit ridiculous If a person cannot be bothered to look up the information.. that is on them. </blockquote><p>LOL...so now we are arguing over whether or not there is a manual and if it's updated or not? Please...I never read the manual for any game myself. Simply because the info. available in forums like these is ALWAYS better and more accurate. Why should SoE bother when they have fans publishing and updating the info. that changes constantly (making manuals obsolete within months of being printed anyway) for FREE?</p>

Odium
03-05-2007, 06:09 PM
<cite>ratman22 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I don't get this at all. I see this all the time and it's <b>driving me nuts!</b></p><p>Here is a sample scenario:</p><p>I usually sell sisal roots for around 12g and have sold many of them around this price. It's a good, stable market price. Then, this happens:</p><p>Someone will have up some sisal roots for 12g. I'll put up my sisal roots for 11g 95s. Someone else will put up their's for 11g 85s. Then, someone will put up his/her sisal roots for 7g, and everyone selling their's afterwards tries to go below those prices. So, the person who did the big skip from 11g 85s to 7g just lowered the market price for sisal roots by 4g for everyone. <b>Why, oh why? This just hurts everyone, including this person!</b></p><p>People were buying at 12g, so why go so much lower? If you want to go lower than the lowest currently listed item, just go for 11g 75s or something like that. <b>I just don't get it!</b> Do these people just not want to make money? Are they just stupid? Do they not want to make money to buy ridiculously expensive spells, weapons, armor, etc.?</p></blockquote><p>Well, I didn't reall all the posts  - there are quite a few, but here is my 2 cents.</p><p>I think you are a prime contributor to your own issue! - no offense, but your getting irritated at people doing exactly what you did. In your example, the going rate for sisal root is 12g. You under cut that seller and sell for 11g 95s. So then someone undercuts you ( might even be the origional seller) then another person comes along, sees what' shappening and figures if they are going to have to play the undercut game, might as well play to win and they blow you both out of the water with a 7g price. You cant blame peopel for undercutting  - you do it, just not to the same extreem. But I bet if you had come along and the going rate had been undercut to 8g, you'd b eselling for 7g 95 silver.</p><p>Im a jeweler by trade and there is quite a bit of competition on my server. There are a few jewelers that undercut prices but I dont. I set my price to the same as the current lowest rate - even if there is only one other seller. In fact, my main competition even lives  on the exact same street as me, so I have every reson to undercut, but I dont. I try maintian the value. I only undercut if that person undercuts me, and then I usualy do drop my price significantly to ensure mine sell first - mostly as sort of a lesson. I can loose profit per peice but make it up in volume. - if I have to.  Typically though, both of us have the same prices and both of us sell. Other jewelers see our matched prices and often match theirs to us. But when you see an undercut started (as you did) it sets the ball rolling and you end up with 1g sisal root. </p>

Generic123
03-05-2007, 06:51 PM
[email protected] Bayle wrote: <blockquote><p>seems to be Economics 101 isnt it? The prices reflect what the markey will bear.12g for a t2 rare is, imho grossly overpriced.  lower ur prices or go all "wal*Mart" and buy out the competition.</p></blockquote><p>Economics 101 is based on a marketplace where buyers and sellers have equal power and opportunity and monopolies are not allowed to exert power.  </p><p>This isn't quite the case in EQ2, but you could get a little closer if the broker supported both asks and bids.  With an ask/bid system you could either put up an item and set an asking price or put up a bid for a particular item and allowed people to see the last sale price.  </p><p>The fair market value for the item is considered to be someplace between the highest bid and lowest ask.  Currently all you see is an asking price, and by definition it's always above the fair market value of the item would have already sold.  </p>

DngrMou
03-05-2007, 07:04 PM
<p>Meh!  Too much to read through, so I'll just post my own selling strategy, and move on.</p><p>1.  Search the broker for identical items.</p><p>2.  Price mine lower.</p><p>My pricing items lower, by either a little, or lot, will have no effect on the economy, as I don't drop a lot of identical items on the broker.  Odd drops and collections quest items account for 95% of what I sell.  It's there for a day, then gone, and I've detected no market crashes yet because of my pricing strategy.   If anyone out there dislikes this, they can either price lower, or purchase my items and resell them.  As long as I get my asking price, I'm happy.</p>

Lord_Quaymar
03-06-2007, 12:11 PM
<cite>Generic123 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Economics 101 is based on a marketplace where buyers and sellers have equal power and opportunity and monopolies are not allowed to exert power.  </p><p><b><span style="color: #3366ff">OK...explain how this does NOT exist in EQ2. Everyone has the same exact opportunity to go out and get anything that they see on the broker for free and the supply is limitless. It is impossible to have a monopoly in this game as well for the very same reasons....unlimited supply.</span></b></p><p>This isn't quite the case in EQ2, but you could get a little closer if the broker supported both asks and bids.  With an ask/bid system you could either put up an item and set an asking price or put up a bid for a particular item and allowed people to see the last sale price.  </p><p>The fair market value for the item is considered to be someplace between the highest bid and lowest ask.  Currently all you see is an asking price, and by definition it's always above the fair market value of the item would have already sold.</p><p><b><span style="color: #3366ff">Items that are currently up for sale may or may not be at fair market value. You assume they would have sold already if that were the case but that is not necessarily true. What you are looking at may have been placed for sale just a couple minutes ago. Or it could be that it is a very expensive item that is priced at FMV but those that want to buy it need to save up the plat for it. </span></b></p><p><b><span style="color: #3366ff">Anyhow...my point is that making a blanket statement claiming that everything for sale on the broker is above FMV because it hasn't sold yet is just a flat out false statement.</span></b>  </p> </blockquote>

Leafbringer
03-07-2007, 12:03 PM
Just keep in mind, you don't have to price lower by going from, say, 20g to 3g.  Why not just go to 18g and keep the price fair on certain items.  I'm reading a lot about "things are overpriced!" but not enough about the fair prices that are getting mangled.  It's not an issue of having 20 people selling for around 20g and one goofball selling for 3g (or I'd just always buy and resell the 3g for 20g), it's an issue of once that goofball has priced at 3g, suddenly everyone else who finds that item prices around 3g, so now you've got the original 20 "legit" (legit as in, the item was worth 20g based on difficulty of finding it) sellers, and suddenly you've got 5 or 10 goofball sellers down in the 3-10g range.  I dunno.  Yeah it is kinda aggravating.  I say again, price absolutely everything at 1g and you'll watch the fun get sucked right out of the economy.  Just try to keep prices real.  

HemoragiK
05-26-2007, 07:32 PM
Although a lot of the pricing has to do with supply/demand, this is not always the case in this game.  Some people just lowball to lowball.  I believe this is what the OP is wondering about.  Every good capitalist should understand the law of supply/demand. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> On another note, I like it when someone lowballs an item(s) to the point below that which a vendor will buy it for.  Easy money. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  I will either buy it up and repost, or just sell it to a vendor for profit.  To those people who lowball to this extent, please, please, please keep doing it!

Kendricke
05-26-2007, 10:07 PM
<cite>Generic123 wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] Bayle wrote: <blockquote><p>seems to be Economics 101 isnt it? The prices reflect what the markey will bear.12g for a t2 rare is, imho grossly overpriced.  lower ur prices or go all "wal*Mart" and buy out the competition.</p></blockquote><p>Economics 101 is based on a marketplace where buyers and sellers have equal power and opportunity and monopolies are not allowed to exert power.  </p></blockquote><p>Really?  Is that what Economics 101 is based on?  And here I thought it was based on a fair and open market - which is exactly what we have here.  There's no coercion at play here and no one is being forced to buy anything from the broker.  In fact, I'm curious how there are even monopolies regarding rare harvestables.  Unless you're being prevented from actually acquiring harvests in the first place, there is no monopolization.  There's also no real cost to speak of.  </p><p>Do you go bankrupt if you don't sell your harvestables?  Do your children go hungry?  Do you get evicted?  Does the broker cut you off if you don't meet his fees?  NO.  None of that occurs.  You can leave items on the broker for whatever price you feel like for years if you'd like.  You never have to sell a thing.  You never have to make a single piece of copper on the broker and you're just as well off as you were the day you put your first item up for sale.  </p><p>If anything, the economy in the Shattered Lands is much easier than the real world.  In Norrath, lives aren't on the line over food and drink prices, and people don't go to war over the price of spices and tea.  You want to talk about "equal power and opportunity", then explain to me which market exists on Earth that allows you to put an item up for sale for free, advertise to every person on the planet in a centralized marketplace (for free), never pay rent if you don't wish to, never eat or drink if you don't wish to, never pay for electricity, water, heat, central air, or any other bills, for that matter.  </p><p>There are no costs in Everquest 2.  Once you get past the monthly subscription fee (which everyone pays anyway, mind you), there are no actual in-game required fees.  If you want to sell harvestables, you don't have to get landowner permissions, pay finder's fees, pay percentages, or pay anything for that matter.  You see a root - you harvest from the root - if you're lucky you get a rare root.  Where's the cost?</p><p>Honestly, if you want to play with Economics 101 and make commentary on how Norrath doesn't fit the mold, then understand exactly why that is.  The broker markets in Everquest 2 are fairer than 99% of the markets you're liable to come across in the real world.  Anyone who's ever shopped around for a house should be able to tell you that much.</p>

Kendricke
05-26-2007, 10:19 PM
<cite>HemoragiK wrote:</cite><blockquote>Although a lot of the pricing has to do with supply/demand, this is not always the case in this game.  Some people just lowball to lowball.  I believe this is what the OP is wondering about.  Every good capitalist should understand the law of supply/demand. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote><p>Spot on.</p><p>The reason people have no problems lowballing in Everquest 2 is because there's no real costs to speak of.  The only real cost is time, and if you don't mind charging less for your time, then that's all that matters.  You can't explain to somehow how the price they're charging isn't "fair".  What's fair?  </p><p>According to Adam Smith, this is what's "fair": </p><blockquote><p><i>"<i>Of the Real and Nominal Price of Commodities, or their Price in Labor, and their Price in Money:</i> </i></p><p><i>EVERY man is rich or poor according to the degree in which he can afford to enjoy the necessaries, conveniences, and amusements of human life. But after the division of labor has once thoroughly taken place, it is but a very small part of these with which a man's own labor can supply him. The far greater part of them he must derive from the labor of other people, and he must be rich or poor according to the quantity of that labor which he can command, or which he can afford to purchase. The value of any commodity, therefore, to the person who possesses it, and who means not to use or consume it himself, but to exchange it for other commodities, is equal to the quantity of labor which it enables him to purchase or command. Labor, therefore, is the real measure of the exchangeable value of all commodities....</i></p><p><i>The real price of everything, what everything really costs to the man who wants to acquire it, is the toil and trouble of acquiring it. What everything is really worth to the man who has acquired it, and who wants to dispose of it or exchange it for something else, is the toil and trouble which it can save to himself, and which it can impose upon other people. What is bought with money or with goods is purchased by labor as much as what we acquire by the toil of our own body. That money or those goods indeed save us this toil....." </i></p><p><i>-Wealth of Nations, Book I, Chapter 5.</i></p> </blockquote><p>If I think Sisal Roots are easy to get and I don't mind dumping them on the broker for less gold than you think they're worth, then we have a situation where my idea of the value of Sisal Roots and your idea of their value differ.  Who's right?  </p><p>We both are.  I believe the roots are worth X.  You believe the roots are worth Y.  Someone else might feel the roots are worth Z.  The point is that the value of the item is worth only what a purchaser is willing to pay for it, which is based largely upon the  "toil and trouble" inherent in the acquisition of said item.  </p><p>In other words, broker price is worth whatever someone is willing to pay.  What someone is willing to pay is based upon his or her ideas regarding the difficulty in obtaining the item through other means.  </p>

HemoragiK
05-26-2007, 10:35 PM
<cite>Kendricke wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>HemoragiK wrote:</cite><blockquote>Although a lot of the pricing has to do with supply/demand, this is not always the case in this game.  Some people just lowball to lowball.  I believe this is what the OP is wondering about.  Every good capitalist should understand the law of supply/demand. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote><p>Spot on.</p><p>The reason people have no problems lowballing in Everquest 2 is because there's no real costs to speak of.  The only real cost is time, and if you don't mind charging less for your time, then that's all that matters.  You can't explain to somehow how the price they're charging isn't "fair".  What's fair?  </p><p>According to Adam Smith, this is what's "fair": </p><blockquote><p><i>"<i>Of the Real and Nominal Price of Commodities, or their Price in Labor, and their Price in Money:</i> </i></p><p><i>EVERY man is rich or poor according to the degree in which he can afford to enjoy the necessaries, conveniences, and amusements of human life. But after the division of labor has once thoroughly taken place, it is but a very small part of these with which a man's own labor can supply him. The far greater part of them he must derive from the labor of other people, and he must be rich or poor according to the quantity of that labor which he can command, or which he can afford to purchase. The value of any commodity, therefore, to the person who possesses it, and who means not to use or consume it himself, but to exchange it for other commodities, is equal to the quantity of labor which it enables him to purchase or command. Labor, therefore, is the real measure of the exchangeable value of all commodities....</i></p><p><i>The real price of everything, what everything really costs to the man who wants to acquire it, is the toil and trouble of acquiring it. What everything is really worth to the man who has acquired it, and who wants to dispose of it or exchange it for something else, is the toil and trouble which it can save to himself, and which it can impose upon other people. What is bought with money or with goods is purchased by labor as much as what we acquire by the toil of our own body. That money or those goods indeed save us this toil....." </i></p><p><i>-Wealth of Nations, Book I, Chapter 5.</i></p> </blockquote><p>If I think Sisal Roots are easy to get and I don't mind dumping them on the broker for less gold than you think they're worth, then we have a situation where my idea of the value of Sisal Roots and your idea of their value differ.  Who's right?  </p><p>We both are.  I believe the roots are worth X.  You believe the roots are worth Y.  Someone else might feel the roots are worth Z.  The point is that the value of the item is worth only what a purchaser is willing to pay for it, which is based largely upon the  "toil and trouble" inherent in the acquisition of said item.  </p><p>In other words, broker price is worth whatever someone is willing to pay.  What someone is willing to pay is based upon his or her ideas regarding the difficulty in obtaining the item through other means.  </p></blockquote>I agree.  This is what one calls utility gained.  I'm honestly glad to see some people understand economics beyond the basics (although, what is being argued in this thread are still the "basics.&quot<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.

deKoven
05-27-2007, 09:46 AM
Hmmm, I've said it before and I guess I'll say it again. Anything I can just "pick up for free" just for the effort of doing it is fair game. I take my stuff to the broker and put it up. First thing I do is take a look at the going rates, then price mine below that. In the first place there's lots of stuff on the broker that is just too expensive <u><i>from MY point of view</i></u>. I can't/couldn't afford to buy a lot of it so I look at things from MY vantage and price things to SELL. I want the moola so I can buy the things I want. Fer instance, Adept spells that I can use as a low lvl char; I see no reason for them being 8 to 12 gold. There isn't any justification <u>in my mind</u> for that price schedule. So when I find/get them from drops I price them to sell at what I think they're worth and I get my price, way more often than not. I've one char who finally, at lvl 24, got up to 1 plat in the bank and at the same is wandering with the latest and greatest, has a room in the local flophouse and is sending gold on to my other chars. In short <b>it's FOUND money, </b>so I can do whatever I want with it. <img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Kendricke
05-27-2007, 10:15 AM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>Hmmm, I've said it before and I guess I'll say it again. Anything I can just "pick up for free" just for the effort of doing it is fair game. I take my stuff to the broker and put it up. First thing I do is take a look at the going rates, then price mine below that. In the first place there's lots of stuff on the broker that is just too expensive <u><i>from MY point of view</i></u>. I can't/couldn't afford to buy a lot of it so I look at things from MY vantage and price things to SELL. I want the moola so I can buy the things I want. Fer instance, Adept spells that I can use as a low lvl char; I see no reason for them being 8 to 12 gold. There isn't any justification <u>in my mind</u> for that price schedule. So when I find/get them from drops I price them to sell at what I think they're worth and I get my price, way more often than not. I've one char who finally, at lvl 24, got up to 1 plat in the bank and at the same is wandering with the latest and greatest, has a room in the local flophouse and is sending gold on to my other chars. In short <b>it's FOUND money, </b>so I can do whatever I want with it. <img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote><p> The only real cost at that point is the opportunity cost involved - the amount of coin you could have received had you priced higher.  If you don't mind losing out on extra coin so you can receive the coin faster, there's nothing wrong with underpricing.  If the item is truly underpriced (from the perspective of "fair market value&quot<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, you might see someone buy the item out from under you for resale,but if that happens, you shouldn't be upset, either since you've sold the item for the price you wanted for it (it's a win-win situation at that point).</p><p>However, at the end of the day, there's nothing wrong with selling an item for whatever you feel it can sell for - regardless of whether or not others feel your price is the "right" price or not.  That's the wonders of capitalism at play - no one else can tell you what a good is worth, save for the purchaser.</p>

VizP
05-27-2007, 10:31 AM
To the OP - try and take advantage of situations. I used to play EVE and I purchased myself an entire battleship after just reaching the end of my tether and people undercutting. In this case it was for 'implants' so I purchased ALL the implants of a certain stat in an entire region and replaced them at a more appropriate price. I proceed to do this until I had made a lot of money and unfortunately in my learning attempts placed it at a price that resulted in the demand dying (too greedy at the end <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ). I did lose a little bit of money at the end because of that in profits but I pretty much made a monopoly there and made cash by doing nothing. Someones loss is my gain - just put them all back at a higher price! Satisying too - to know some idiot just made me moneyw hen he could have done it himself. But for the sake of quick cash he lost a significant percentage if only he had waited a fraction more time? Ah well.

liveja
05-27-2007, 11:39 AM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>Hmmm, I've said it before and I guess I'll say it again. Anything I can just "pick up for free" just for the effort of doing it is fair game. I take my stuff to the broker and put it up. First thing I do is take a look at the going rates, then price mine below that. In the first place there's lots of stuff on the broker that is just too expensive <u><i>from MY point of view</i></u>. I can't/couldn't afford to buy a lot of it so I look at things from MY vantage and price things to SELL. I want the moola so I can buy the things I want. </blockquote><p> I agree with this person entirely.</p><p>As I've said earlier in this thread, I will undercut ruthlessly, & those who don't like it ... too bad.</p>

tass
05-27-2007, 11:49 AM
dam right if someone sells there spell for 3g I sell mine for 1. 9g? 4 20? 9! The only differance is all of my items sell every day. The other peoples do not and I bank plat after plat after plat. Unless some [Removed for Content] priced theres under what an npc will give me for it then I just sell em off that way.

Wayena
05-27-2007, 12:03 PM
[email protected] Bayle wrote: <blockquote><p>Meh!  Too much to read through, so I'll just post my own selling strategy, and move on.</p><p>1.  Search the broker for identical items.</p><p>2.  Price mine lower.</p><p>My pricing items lower, by either a little, or lot, will have no effect on the economy, as I don't drop a lot of identical items on the broker.  Odd drops and collections quest items account for 95% of what I sell.  It's there for a day, then gone, and I've detected no market crashes yet because of my pricing strategy.   If anyone out there dislikes this, they can either price lower, or purchase my items and resell them.  As long as I get my asking price, I'm happy.</p></blockquote> That's my selling strategy too. I have too much stuff taking up space as it is, so I want to move everything out as fast as possible. If I get what I'm asking for and someone else gets a deal, that's a win-win.

Drewx
05-27-2007, 03:30 PM
<p>I have not read all 14 pageso f this thread...this is just my own feedback...</p><p>I will admit I am one of those people who sells low.</p><p>I am purely an adventuerer, I don't craft. I explore, fight, and try to make a quick buck once I return home. Now I do keep my gathering, mining, and etc rasied for those rare quest that have you use those skills... So when I return home I have all this crap I have no use for. I have Adepts I have no use for, roots, ore, rare roots & Ore, dropped armor, etc.</p><p>I often look at the market price and then decide what the truely feels worth...TO ME then I sell it. I see lvl 63 Adepts priced between 15 and 26gold. I sell mine for 13g. I want my item sold, and I want some cash now. So one person gets lucky. I have a Xegonite Cluster...they are priced between crap I forgot the actual price but...lets say 30g-75g a peice. YEESH. I'd probably sell mine about 28 or 29g. I admit I always sell low, but I often have money flying in. Also I have bumped into new players in town who recognize my name and have thanked me for selling an item for something they could afford. I had a lvl 10 Wizard Master...EVERYONE on the broker was selling it for 8 plat. I was like....well the world will have to be [Removed for Content] at me cause this peice of crap is worth between 10 and 20gold. The spell is rarely used by wizards, its lvl 10, the only rare thing about it is the price... Some lucky player got it for 15 gold lol. Later on in life some Wizard shows up and sells me a high lvl SK Master for 15 gold to say thanks. LOL!</p><p>So meh...overpriced or underpriced...its a matter of personal opinion....if you want your item to be the price then buy everyone out, it makes them happy, and then you'll be happy. However...it if seems like EVERYONE is undercutting...their maybe a reason behind it...not everyone wants a quick buck, others just want to help other players out. There is no fun in dropping a plat for an item that honestly is worth about 30g....and players below level 50 can't make gold very easily so how they afford items that cost between 85g-3p?</p><p>Thats my view on things.</p>

Mion da Peon
05-27-2007, 03:39 PM
Call me China, but I sell low so people underestimate me.

Yngwiem
05-27-2007, 07:03 PM
<p>Underpricing doesn't bother me. Sure I'd like to see higher profits. </p><p>What bothers me is those who undercut by a few copper!! I'f I am buying something, and I see someone undercutting by copper, then I won't buy it from them.</p><p>When I sell, I try to match the lowest item.... unless it is just rediculously over-priced. Then I will undercut a lot! I've seen level 4 Master spells going for 35g. I go to about 15g.</p>

big perm
05-28-2007, 11:49 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><p>I usually sell sisal roots for around 12g and have sold many of them around this price. It's a good, stable market price. Then, this happens:</p><p>Someone will have up some sisal roots for 12g. I'll put up my sisal roots for 11g 95s............................................... ............................... </p></blockquote> IMHO, you started the domino effect right there.

Despak
05-29-2007, 04:54 AM
I sell items for what "I" think they are worth, and I'll be damned if I'll follow the money grubbing example of the "usual undercutting complainants".  Sisal roots are worth (IMO); 5 gold max.  Roots 1-5c each.  Adepts no matter the level go for 1g over the vendor cost and it's [Removed for Content] tough luck to those that don't like it.

Slabby
05-29-2007, 06:37 AM
There are a few posts on this (rather enormous) thread that made me cringe, but also a few that made me cheer. 1. "Fair"? What's "fair"? It's like the word "nice". What the hell does that mean? It has no tacit meaning. In economics, it's generally accepted that (unless stated somewhere in some kind of trade agreement) the "fair market value" is what it sells for at any given time. 60g? that's fair. 40g? still fair. 1c? fair. 2. Price. In an open economy (and I think it's "fair" to say that Norrath pt. 2 is one), your price is going to be dictated by supply and demand/market entry, quality/utility, substitutes/compliments and available cash. A. Supply and demand. If there are fewer roots, ea ch individual root commands a higher price. This i s known as scarcity, and we see this with diamonds . Similarly, if there are many roots, who cares? You have a bajillion of em. I'll trade you a root for a piece of gum, I don't care. This is because, plainly, people want roots. Let's say Antonia Bayle demands 10 roots a day, and they're willing to pay 50g a root. The suppliers of those 10 roots are feeling pretty good, because the root business is pretty alright. They tried to sell 11 roots, but it just  wasn't happening. Demand is 10, and they couldn't  move that last root. Now, market entry is pretty easy in EQ2. you run around, you skill up, and you too can harvest roots. So ambitious newcomers are pretty excited about this root situation. They could make some cash. so they start harvesting, and they put it up on the broker, and sure enough: 20 roots are for sale. Now, the consumers still only need 10 roots. but herein begins the minigame: each seller wants to sell one of those 10 roots, and they'll do anything to accomplish it. Prices fall (item quality is guaranteed, so price is pretty much the only determinant). This is obviously a little oversimplified. The root users have a market as well, and their demand will not stay constant, and developer balance changes may boost or diminish demand or supply. but the framework is there: this is why and how prices fluctuate based solely on seller behavior. B. Quality is assured in EQ2. But utility varies, and it's an important concept. Economics is big on analogies and examples, so here's another: imagine you're eating an apple. It's this big, red, juicy apple. You're hungry, and in this instance, you're craving an apple. When you eat that apple, what you got is what economists call "utility". Now, how does this relate to EQ2? Well, there's a Master I on the broker. There are no other ones up, so the seller puts it up for 10p. as a buyer, what is our thought process? We think "just how happy is that Master going to make me?" You do more damage, you heal better, whatever. You gain, and as a consumer, you say to yourself "is my gain worth 10p?" and you compare the gain per platinum with, say, your Adept 3. another way to say it is: I know it'll make me happy, but will it make me TEN PLAT happy? and this really feeds into a discussion that was taking place on this thread. Some of the sellers on this thread derive utility from their own ability to sell low; they derive more utility from this than if they had received the platinum from a higher sale. Utility is very much a comparative thing. again, this is oversimplified, but it paints us a picture of how market behavior can vary. C. Substitutes/compliments. This concept doesn't apply to the root market (you either have the root or you don't have the root. The recipe can't use anything else), but it applies to all sorts of other things in the EQ2 economy. For this one, we've got a Master on the broker. We're going to assume it's at equilibrium (same amount of supply and demand, used mostly for simplicity in models). I think it's reasonable to say that an Adept 3 is a substitute for a Master. Now, by sheer luck, 20 Adept 3s flood the market at once. They just dropped and these people want to get rid of them, and they're pricing competitively. What happens to the market for that Master? It tanks. The adept is almost as good, and now it's much cheaper! Now, let's say our Master A works really well in combination with Master B. What happens to Master B? They suffer similar fates. Honestly, I can't think of many real compliments in EQ2 (it IS 5 am). but I added this for completeness' sake. D. Disposable income. Let's say there's a terrible Norrathian recession. Apartment rent ingame costs a bundle, and it leaves players with less cash with which to buy luxuries. What's going to go? Collection items, furniture, novelty items. That Master is going to see a lot less demand, and an Adept 3 is probably going to see a lot more. As you don't die in EQ2 if you don't eat or drink, you don't permanently lose your house if you don't pay, etc, etc, this doesn't have a whole lot of meaning in eq2. I mostly just threw this in for economics 101 value. 3. The original poster, as previously stated, holds a sense of entitlement to his profit and is, basically, arguing for price fixing. His complaints over undercutting ring hollow as he, himself, has admitted to undercutting. It's likely that the undercutter in question did it simply to [Removed for Content] off the original poster. 4. The ardent seller who keeps posting is entirely correct in his manipulation of the market for his own gain, but seems to not understand the motivations of others, mainly those with no desire to "play" the market. To be honest, about every person i've ever met in money management(who enjoyed it) of any kind has had a similar patronizing tone, and it never stops being annoying. Please, just stop.

Slabby
05-29-2007, 06:43 AM
forgot a very important aspect. 5. Information. Without the right information, a buyer or seller can find themselves wasting precious time and money. If you're a buyer and there's a Master up for 10 plat, the most helpful thing to know is the market's behavior. How have similar items sold in the past? Is this a good deal (not in the utility sense, but in terms of buying low, selling high)? and if you're a seller and you have one, should you undercut? Without the right information, you could make a bad decision. I'd be thrilled if the team could implement something to track prices. but then again, I'm an economics dork, and they're probably more interested in primary game mechanics.

XAvengerX
05-29-2007, 07:26 AM
<p>Personally speaking it isnt the underpricing that worries me, but the ridiculous overpricing of tech 2 rares on the broker.</p><p>Some guy yesterday on our server had 48 pieces of Silver for sale, all at something like 55 gold each, and there were others listed that were priced over that.</p><p>Of course I wont buy them at that price, but seriously who is going to buy T2 rares at 55 gold to make a spell which you will burn through in next to no time at all.</p>

janmystique
05-29-2007, 07:56 AM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><p>who is going to buy T2 rares at 55 gold to make a spell which you will burn through in next to no time at all.</p></blockquote><p> Isn't the fact that raw materials are often devalued when used in crafting one of the big problems? And you don't have to pay silly prices such as you mention for this to happen. The aggravation in this issue for me is not that I can't profiteer but that people are selling crafted items at such low prices that it is more profitable by far to sell raw materials and collectibles than it is to sell crafted goods.</p>

MadTexan3
05-29-2007, 08:11 AM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>The aggravation in this issue for me is not that I can't profiteer but that people are selling crafted items at such low prices that it is more profitable by far to sell raw materials and collectibles than it is to sell crafted goods.</blockquote><p>That's an itemization issue, though. I gave up listing T3 Handcrafted plate and chain when even at 10s above vendor price it just sat and sat and sat.</p><p>Re. pricing, personally I love it when so many way like the OP overprice (IMO, of course) their T2 and T3 rares since when I list mine at what I consider a reasonable price (yet still with a huge profit margin for me) they look like extreme bargains and move within a day at most.</p>

selch
05-29-2007, 08:11 AM
<p>Sorry, I did not read whole thread but...</p><p>I was going to ask, "Argh! Why are people OVERPRICING at the broker by SO MUCH?"</p>

Kri
05-29-2007, 08:39 AM
<cite>Wayena wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] Bayle wrote: <blockquote><p>Meh!  Too much to read through, so I'll just post my own selling strategy, and move on.</p><p>1.  Search the broker for identical items.</p><p>2.  Price mine lower.</p><p>My pricing items lower, by either a little, or lot, will have no effect on the economy, as I don't drop a lot of identical items on the broker.  Odd drops and collections quest items account for 95% of what I sell.  It's there for a day, then gone, and I've detected no market crashes yet because of my pricing strategy.   If anyone out there dislikes this, they can either price lower, or purchase my items and resell them.  As long as I get my asking price, I'm happy.</p></blockquote>That's my selling strategy too. I have too much stuff taking up space as it is, so I want to move everything out as fast as possible. If I get what I'm asking for and someone else gets a deal, that's a win-win. </blockquote>Same here! I prefer selling many things every day for a smaller profit to selling one thing per week for a bigger profit. Since I keep an eye on the market I buy stuff from people who are using the same strategy, which means my smaller income will still be enough to buy me what I want. It's my personal choice not to support greedy people. And I never buy from people who undercut by a few copper or silver. If you want to undercut a price, do it properly!

Kendricke
05-29-2007, 08:59 AM
<cite>selch wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Sorry, I did not read whole thread but...</p><p>I was going to ask, "Argh! Why are people OVERPRICING at the broker by SO MUCH?"</p></blockquote><p>They aren't:  <a href="http://kendricke.wordpress.com/2007/05/22/the-root-of-all-annoyances-pt-i/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">"Root of All Annoyances, pt I"</a></p><p>People just don't understand what "underpricing" or "overpricing" actually means.  </p>

Thunderthyze
05-29-2007, 09:43 AM
<p>Personally I find that this only really has much of an impact if you're selling "one offs", collectables, armour, weapons etc. I.e. only one is going to be bought at a time. Then the ruthless undercutting IS going to impact on the economy.</p><p>However, if you are talking about harvested items, roots, ore etc, or relic items (paraffin sealed docs etc) then just leave them there at the price you post them at. don't go chasing the market. People buy MANY of these items at a time and so eventually you will rise to the top of the pile again and sell at the original price.</p><p>On Runnyeye I have noticed that if I price all my "relic items" at 1g they will sell at that price....maybe not immediately but certainly within 48 hours. It saves time not having to review prices on these so I place them all in their own sales crate and I don't touch it other than to refill it from time to time.</p>

Lord_Quaymar
05-29-2007, 11:58 AM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><p>I don't get this at all. I see this all the time and it's <b>driving me nuts!</b></p><p>Here is a sample scenario:</p><p>I usually sell sisal roots for around 12g and have sold many of them around this price. It's a good, stable market price. Then, this happens:</p><p>Someone will have up some sisal roots for 12g. I'll put up my sisal roots for 11g 95s. Someone else will put up their's for 11g 85s. Then, someone will put up his/her sisal roots for 7g, and everyone selling their's afterwards tries to go below those prices. So, the person who did the big skip from 11g 85s to 7g just lowered the market price for sisal roots by 4g for everyone. <b>Why, oh why? This just hurts everyone, including this person!</b></p><p>People were buying at 12g, so why go so much lower? If you want to go lower than the lowest currently listed item, just go for 11g 75s or something like that. <b>I just don't get it!</b> Do these people just not want to make money? Are they just stupid? Do they not want to make money to buy ridiculously expensive spells, weapons, armor, etc.?</p></blockquote>Because that person is a friggen [Removed for Content] that believes his/her root will sell faster due to the insanely low price. It does sell faster by maybe an hour or so because a wiser person will buy the cheap root and resell it for some easy cash. Don't get mad...be happy there are morons like that to get free money from!!

Lord_Quaymar
05-29-2007, 12:01 PM
<cite>Despak wrote:</cite><blockquote>I sell items for what "I" think they are worth, and I'll be damned if I'll follow the money grubbing example of the "usual undercutting complainants".  Sisal roots are worth (IMO); 5 gold max.  Roots 1-5c each.  Adepts no matter the level go for 1g over the vendor cost and it's [I cannot control my vocabulary] tough luck to those that don't like it.</blockquote> I like people like you....I have made an easy 50p due to this ignorant thinking....keep it up!!  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Stuge
05-29-2007, 03:35 PM
A belated, "Happy 3 Month Birthday!" to you, Stupid Undercutting Thread!

Darian
05-29-2007, 03:39 PM
The real question is why are people OVERpricing items at the broker by so much t1 and t2 stuff for 20-50g? [Removed for Content] sad.

cronar
05-29-2007, 06:30 PM
<p>The people i personally don't understand are my fellow sages.</p><p>If a app 4 vendors for 92 silver, what is the purpose of brokering it for 1gold5silver ???</p><p>I can understand wanting to get rid of excess product, but let's not undercut each other.</p><p>The sage spell market is one that i would think people would price fix the hell out of things and make it so we can actually make some money back for all of the time and money put in.</p>

Karlen
05-29-2007, 06:55 PM
>>>Same here! I prefer selling many things every day for a smaller profit to selling one thing per week for a bigger profit.<<< An important consideration is that things that sell within the day clear up broker slots for things I might want to sell tomorrow. I can put up one thing that takes a week to sell for 10g profit in a slot, but if I can make 2g profit every day in that slot, I am better off in the long run.

Bmitchell64
05-29-2007, 09:22 PM
The problem with price undercutting is when someone sales an item for less than the merchant value.  If the person just wants to get rid of the item then sale it to a merchant for the minimum value and don't screw over the entire market.  It is not like the item will go on sale with the merchant since the player sales it to them.  Overpricing is  just greedy and pricing under (or at the market value) is just plain stupid...you waste your time waiting for it to sale and you make everyone else suffer because they can not sale the item at a fair price for the buyer and saler.  The only exception are the items that are of no value to the merchant but are needed for completing lore quests or collections, then the pricing just has to balance out with the supply and demand.  I do agree that the players need to respect the other and not drop the price dramatically just to sale there stuff (and screw over everyone else.)

janmystique
05-30-2007, 03:44 AM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><p>And I never buy from people who undercut by a few copper or silver. If you want to undercut a price, do it properly!</p></blockquote>Just to say that on occasion, I undercut by a few coppers. This isn't because I am trying to drag every last copper I can out of my sale but because the price is so low that the item is only a silver or two at most above the merchant price. Those few coppers may well be all the "profit" that I am getting. And actually, it's not profit at all since I am thinking about my apprentice III sage scrolls and more than the fuel has gone in to them!

jagermonsta
05-30-2007, 11:50 AM
Long loooong thread so I'm sure that this has been said already... I don't mind when people under price me... I do the same. But what I DO NOT understand is when people set items below value. Like a merchant will give you 2g for a adept spell... but players will post the same adapt spell on the broker for 1g 75s... is there a point to that or are these people just not with it?

jagermonsta
05-30-2007, 11:53 AM
[email protected] Bayle wrote: <blockquote>The real question is why are people OVERpricing items at the broker by so much t1 and t2 stuff for 20-50g? [I cannot control my vocabulary] sad. </blockquote>Transmuting.

Badaxe Ba
05-30-2007, 12:03 PM
<p>Transmuting.</p><p>Now thats a market that is literally drowning in 'flickering'.  There is enough flickering adornments to coat every weapon from Qeynos to Neriak and back.  Twice.  I've even seen prices drop to 6c. Yes, the cost of the fuel needed to make it, meaning no profit.</p>

XAvengerX
05-30-2007, 12:08 PM
[email protected] Bayle wrote: <blockquote>[email protected] Bayle wrote: <blockquote>The real question is why are people OVERpricing items at the broker by so much t1 and t2 stuff for 20-50g? [I cannot control my vocabulary] sad. </blockquote>Transmuting. </blockquote><p> Bah, go and make yourself a couple of alts, choose a zone which will drop your adepts and treasured at the level you require, then mail / share bank (if same faction) the stuff you loot for transmuting.</p><p>That way it isn't an expensively disposable money sink. Only the desperate (or lazy <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />) buy their transmuting mats from the broker.</p>

liveja
05-30-2007, 12:26 PM
<cite>Lord_Quaymar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Despak wrote:</cite><blockquote>I sell items for what "I" think they are worth, and I'll be damned if I'll follow the money grubbing example of the "usual undercutting complainants".  Sisal roots are worth (IMO); 5 gold max.  Roots 1-5c each.  Adepts no matter the level go for 1g over the vendor cost and it's [I cannot control my vocabulary] tough luck to those that don't like it.</blockquote> I like people like you....I have made an easy 50p due to this ignorant thinking....keep it up!!  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote><p> There's nothing "ignorant" about it. I set my prices to what I think things are worth, & I couldn't care less what others think of my policy. I'd far rather have $$$ in my pocket than unsold crap sitting on the vendor for days at a time, & if my "under-selling" means that some enterprising person like you ends up making a little more money, well, so be it. Since it's all play money -- even LESS than play money, since it's not even real -- who really cares?</p>

Foretold
05-30-2007, 12:26 PM
<p><b><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Times New Roman">I've been avoiding this thread for months...hehe... but seeing as it won't die, I figure I might as well chime in with my observations.</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Times New Roman">When people list on the vendor, their listings are only available for the first 24 hours after they log out.  After that, their listings disappear.  Enter Drizzt, who only plays EQ2 on weekends.  On Sunday, when he put the tussah roots on the vendor, there was a huge supply, so they were only going for 2 silver each.  He prices his accordingly and logs out til next weekend.  After 24 hours, his listings disappear.  Prices adjust during the week as the supply dwindles so that by Friday, tussah roots are running 10 silver each.  On Friday night, giddy at the end of his work week, Drizzt logs in to join a raid.  At that moment, his listings go back live on the vendor - and there are his tussah roots for 2 silver when the going price is 10 silver!!! OMG he's undercutting the market...</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Times New Roman">I think a good percentage of what one may see as purposeful undercutting is actually just a result of game mechanics, and is unintentional.  Drizzt's roots will obviously sell quickly at that lower price, and I'm guessing he was so busy with the raid he didnt stop by the vendor right away to see if his prices, which he set last week, are still in line with the market.  I bet when he does stop by the vendor later, he just grabs his money and moves on, not even bothering to see what the price of tussah is at the moment.</span></b></p><p><b><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Times New Roman">Of course there are puposeful undercutters out there... they've chimed in on this thread... but not all undercutting you see is intentional.</span></b></p><p><b></b></p><p><b></b></p>

mjashmore
05-30-2007, 01:27 PM
[email protected] Bayle wrote: <blockquote>The real question is why are people OVERpricing items at the broker by so much t1 and t2 stuff for 20-50g? [I cannot control my vocabulary] sad. </blockquote><p> People are pricing t1 and t2 things on the broker for 20-50g becase other people are buying them for 20-50g.</p><p>Why are people buying things at these prices? Transmuting has already been mentioned but the main reason is probably because a large percentage of low level characters are alts of hight level characters who have nothing better to spend their money on than twinking their low level alts. This is unfortunate for a truely new player who does not have a high level character feeding them money meaning that they have to find things to sell at the inflate prices in order to buy other things at the inflated prices... but that's doable. </p><p>If a level 70 adventurer can make a platinum or two in an hour or two of adventuring and have nothing to spend that couple of platinum on then you can see where the problem comes from. The only way to bring prices down is to introduce some kind of money sink that high level characters will want to invest their money into (rather than twinking alts) which removes money from the game.</p>

re1master
05-30-2007, 01:41 PM
[email protected] Bayle wrote: <blockquote>Long loooong thread so I'm sure that this has been said already... I don't mind when people under price me... I do the same. But what I DO NOT understand is when people set items below value. Like a merchant will give you 2g for a adept spell... but players will post the same adapt spell on the broker for 1g 75s... is there a point to that or are these people just not with it? </blockquote> I would rather fellow players have good spells than a few extra cp.  Normally I save any spells I find and if I stumble upon someone I enjoy grouping with I'll give them the spells I've found for their class, hoping to help them improve and also group with me more often.

Zin`Car
05-30-2007, 01:50 PM
[email protected] Bayle wrote: <blockquote>A belated, "Happy 3 Month Birthday!" to you, Stupid Undercutting Thread! </blockquote> ROFL was about to say...  why was this dug back up?  someone needed something to whine about and couldnt find an appropriate category for their rant on the first page of threads on the forum?

steelblueangel
05-31-2007, 08:39 AM
<p>You call it an undercut; however, the person that buys it because they need it, call it a bargin.</p><p>Over priced items is greedy gouging. So put a reasonable price on it to start with and stop trying to get rich off of one item. </p><p>If the item is too high I'm gonna smart shop for the lower priced items, thats how it works.</p><p>You can make more money by selling numerous reasonable priced items than outrageous priced priced ones.  Lower priced items sell quicker and in the long run generate more money due to the quicker sells. </p><p>Besides all of this most don't sell to get rich; instead they use it for upgrades of armor etc. If you are trying to get rich then its not a game its a job or you are a plat farmer selling your plat online. </p>

deKoven
05-31-2007, 10:30 AM
'Deed, I went shopping for an Adept spell yesterday. Prices varied from 2.5 gold to 26 gold. Now I ask myself what in tarnation is really going on here. Are people really thinking I'm gonna pay 26g when I can buy it for 2 to 4g? My motto is "<u><i>Get what ya kan while ya kan</i></u>" and ding blast those who have some "price structure" in they's pointy lil heads. <img src="/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Trebien
05-31-2007, 10:36 AM
I have been financing the twinking of alts simply by selling T5 and T6 food at the lowest possible price.  I always make at least 100% profit on every combine (I miss pristine about one time in 500 so that's no problem), and in some cases it's closer to 300%.  That adds up quickly even though I'm the cheapest.  I will match the lowest price, unless the current lowest price is what I deem ridiculously high.  Then, if I am undercut I will return the favor until my stock is gone, never going below twice the fuel cost. I think there are just way too many greedy people out there who try to sell for way too much.  I can understand wanting to have plat set aside for special items and stuff, sure.  But geez Louise this is a GAME.  It's not like I'm trying to become a billionaire on Nasdaq IPOs for crying out loud!

MadTexan3
05-31-2007, 10:47 AM
<p>Bah, what really annoys me is people putting up vendor items like Jeweler Essentials Volume 28 for 15g to fishin for missclicks when someone is looking to buy Advanced Jeweler Volume 28 which often goes for 1p or more.</p>

Sokolov
06-02-2007, 01:26 AM
<cite>Kendricke wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Generic123 wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] Bayle wrote: <blockquote><p>seems to be Economics 101 isnt it? The prices reflect what the markey will bear.12g for a t2 rare is, imho grossly overpriced.  lower ur prices or go all "wal*Mart" and buy out the competition.</p></blockquote><p>Economics 101 is based on a marketplace where buyers and sellers have equal power and opportunity and monopolies are not allowed to exert power.  </p></blockquote><p>Really?  Is that what Economics 101 is based on?  And here I thought it was based on a fair and open market - which is exactly what we have here.  There's no coercion at play here and no one is being forced to buy anything from the broker.  In fact, I'm curious how there are even monopolies regarding rare harvestables.  Unless you're being prevented from actually acquiring harvests in the first place, there is no monopolization.  There's also no real cost to speak of.  </p><p>Do you go bankrupt if you don't sell your harvestables?  Do your children go hungry?  Do you get evicted?  Does the broker cut you off if you don't meet his fees?  NO.  None of that occurs.  You can leave items on the broker for whatever price you feel like for years if you'd like.  You never have to sell a thing.  You never have to make a single piece of copper on the broker and you're just as well off as you were the day you put your first item up for sale.  </p><p>If anything, the economy in the Shattered Lands is much easier than the real world.  In Norrath, lives aren't on the line over food and drink prices, and people don't go to war over the price of spices and tea.  You want to talk about "equal power and opportunity", then explain to me which market exists on Earth that allows you to put an item up for sale for free, advertise to every person on the planet in a centralized marketplace (for free), never pay rent if you don't wish to, never eat or drink if you don't wish to, never pay for electricity, water, heat, central air, or any other bills, for that matter.  </p><p>There are no costs in Everquest 2.  Once you get past the monthly subscription fee (which everyone pays anyway, mind you), there are no actual in-game required fees.  If you want to sell harvestables, you don't have to get landowner permissions, pay finder's fees, pay percentages, or pay anything for that matter.  You see a root - you harvest from the root - if you're lucky you get a rare root.  Where's the cost?</p><p>Honestly, if you want to play with Economics 101 and make commentary on how Norrath doesn't fit the mold, then understand exactly why that is.  The broker markets in Everquest 2 are fairer than 99% of the markets you're liable to come across in the real world.  Anyone who's ever shopped around for a house should be able to tell you that much.</p></blockquote> As an economist, I find it shameful people talk like they have in the above quotes. I am not sure what you people's understand of what economics is, but it isn't a specific view of how market systems should work based on your own view of opinions.  Economics is the study of the allocation of limited resources and its implications in the world.  Economics is NOT the Norrathian economy, nor would a 100 level introductory Economics course be based on a virtual game economy.  It may reference such an economy, as appropriate, but to suppose that Norrath's economy is the basis by which economics is based is quite ludicrous. Certainly there is some truth in Kendricke's description of the Norrathian economy as it exists on EQ2, but it is certainly not what "Economics 101" would be about. At the same time though, to say something like "there are no costs in Everquest 2" belies a complete misunderstanding of basic economic theory and principles.  I won't even go into the rest of the post which is full of misinterpreted observations strung together with made up statistics like "fairer than 99%."  ~ Anyway, what Kaalenarc implies is more or less correct.  In a simple economic system like this, prices will tend to fall within a certain range based on aggregate supply and demand.  One of the interesting things about the Norrath economy is that while it should be fairly easy to explore all the niche markets via the broker, there are many individuals enjoying a monopoly in certain markets.  This is not to say that they are barring others from entering that market, but that others are not even looking at entering it.  For instance, for about 4 months I had a monopoly on level 56-60 Adept 3s on Mistmoore for Scouts.  For some reason, no one else sold these despite the fact that, based on my brisk sales, there was a fairly strong demand for these Adept 3s.  Since information dissemination on EQ2 is largely based on individuals seeking it out for themselves, with very little "media" to report on market trends, etc., there can be quite a significant delay if supply drops in a specific niche market (i.e. someone quits the game, moves to a different market,etc.).  In my example, eventually someone else found the market and competed against me - prices, therefore, naturally fell due to the increased supply.

Kendricke
06-02-2007, 08:45 AM
<cite>Sokolov wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kendricke wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Generic123 wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] Bayle wrote: <blockquote><p>seems to be Economics 101 isnt it? The prices reflect what the markey will bear.12g for a t2 rare is, imho grossly overpriced.  lower ur prices or go all "wal*Mart" and buy out the competition.</p></blockquote><p>Economics 101 is based on a marketplace where buyers and sellers have equal power and opportunity and monopolies are not allowed to exert power.  </p></blockquote><p>Really?  Is that what Economics 101 is based on?  And here I thought it was based on a fair and open market - which is exactly what we have here.  There's no coercion at play here and no one is being forced to buy anything from the broker.  In fact, I'm curious how there are even monopolies regarding rare harvestables.  Unless you're being prevented from actually acquiring harvests in the first place, there is no monopolization.  There's also no real cost to speak of.  </p><p>Do you go bankrupt if you don't sell your harvestables?  Do your children go hungry?  Do you get evicted?  Does the broker cut you off if you don't meet his fees?  NO.  None of that occurs.  You can leave items on the broker for whatever price you feel like for years if you'd like.  You never have to sell a thing.  You never have to make a single piece of copper on the broker and you're just as well off as you were the day you put your first item up for sale.  </p><p>If anything, the economy in the Shattered Lands is much easier than the real world.  In Norrath, lives aren't on the line over food and drink prices, and people don't go to war over the price of spices and tea.  You want to talk about "equal power and opportunity", then explain to me which market exists on Earth that allows you to put an item up for sale for free, advertise to every person on the planet in a centralized marketplace (for free), never pay rent if you don't wish to, never eat or drink if you don't wish to, never pay for electricity, water, heat, central air, or any other bills, for that matter.  </p><p>There are no costs in Everquest 2.  Once you get past the monthly subscription fee (which everyone pays anyway, mind you), there are no actual in-game required fees.  If you want to sell harvestables, you don't have to get landowner permissions, pay finder's fees, pay percentages, or pay anything for that matter.  You see a root - you harvest from the root - if you're lucky you get a rare root.  Where's the cost?</p><p>Honestly, if you want to play with Economics 101 and make commentary on how Norrath doesn't fit the mold, then understand exactly why that is.  The broker markets in Everquest 2 are fairer than 99% of the markets you're liable to come across in the real world.  Anyone who's ever shopped around for a house should be able to tell you that much.</p></blockquote> As an economist, I find it shameful people talk like they have in the above quotes. I am not sure what you people's understand of what economics is, but it isn't a specific view of how market systems should work based on your own view of opinions.  Economics is the study of the allocation of limited resources and its implications in the world.  Economics is NOT the Norrathian economy, nor would a 100 level introductory Economics course be based on a virtual game economy.  It may reference such an economy, as appropriate, but to suppose that Norrath's economy is the basis by which economics is based is quite ludicrous. Certainly there is some truth in Kendricke's description of the Norrathian economy as it exists on EQ2, but it is certainly not what "Economics 101" would be about. At the same time though, to say something like "there are no costs in Everquest 2" belies a complete misunderstanding of basic economic theory and principles.  I won't even go into the rest of the post which is full of misinterpreted observations strung together with made up statistics like "fairer than 99%."  ~ Anyway, what Kaalenarc implies is more or less correct.  In a simple economic system like this, prices will tend to fall within a certain range based on aggregate supply and demand.  One of the interesting things about the Norrath economy is that while it should be fairly easy to explore all the niche markets via the broker, there are many individuals enjoying a monopoly in certain markets.  This is not to say that they are barring others from entering that market, but that others are not even looking at entering it.  For instance, for about 4 months I had a monopoly on level 56-60 Adept 3s on Mistmoore for Scouts.  For some reason, no one else sold these despite the fact that, based on my brisk sales, there was a fairly strong demand for these Adept 3s.  Since information dissemination on EQ2 is largely based on individuals seeking it out for themselves, with very little "media" to report on market trends, etc., there can be quite a significant delay if supply drops in a specific niche market (i.e. someone quits the game, moves to a different market,etc.).  In my example, eventually someone else found the market and competed against me - prices, therefore, naturally fell due to the increased supply. </blockquote><p>You got me this time, Sokolov (*shakes fists!*).  You caught me off my game, and you're right that my post was riddled with inaccuracies that, upon a further reading, made me cringe a bit.   The costs are time.  The study is choices.  Capitalism is based on the free market, not economics 101.  Yes, yes, I know the semantics, and frankly there should be no excuse to share such inaccuracies.    Would my learned and venerable professors and colleagues  be upset with me had they heard it?  Likely as not, yes.  But they'd at least understand the points.   </p><p>I still stand by my basic points, regardless of whether or not the semantics were technically correct.  As I see it, the facts remain simple here.  Costs, other than time, are virtually non-existant in an online economy such as Everquest 2.  There's no regular fees.  There's no rent.  There's no fixed costs involved in sale.  I can place an item on the broker even having a home, and then so long as I remember to log in once per day, the item will continue to be placed for sale.  There's no motivation other than my own desires to sell the item.  I have no nagging bills, no nagging spouse, and no nagging hunger driving me to make that sale.  I also have none of the previous items requiring me to worry then about pricing.  Again, the only costs are time in such an instance and so long as you're willing to spend time, you'll eventually win.  </p><p>In an online economy, everything eventually sells, regardless of price.  To prove the point, I've sold torches, odyssey stones, and basic tradeskilling goods for 10x, 100x, or even 1000x the original vendor price just to show it could be done.  In old Everquest, I learned this lesson from a guildmate who would walk 50 steps into Shadowhaven, buy a 10pp smithing hammer from a vendor, then walk 50 steps back to the Bazaar and sell the hammer for 100pp within a week.  </p><p>In a "real world" economy, you have to worry about choices for which there is no archived data.  Choices affect everything from how to spend your time at work to how you budget your pay at home.  Make bad choices there, and you suddenly have no food, or power, or a job.  Make bad choices on the Everquest 2 broker and...what?  You now have to take some more time to regain what you've lost, or it takes longer to sell whatever it is that hasn't sold?  Go broke in Everquest 2 and that's not a problem.  Go broke in the real world and suddenly your children have no place to live.  </p><p>Your landlord in Norrath doesn't care about backrent, and fully forgives you any past debts from week to week.  Don't worry - your house will be safe and sound the day you find enough coin to pay one weeks rent - even if it takes a year.  Tell me how your landlord at home feels when you offer him the same contract.</p><p>Yes, the economy in Norrath is safer than virtually any economic model likely to impact your "real world" interactions.  Is it 99%?  No, and strictly speaking it's hyperbole and fallacy - but I wasn't aware that anyone was taking such a number quite so literally.  For that, I will restate the phrase to say "The broker markets in Everquest 2 have less real risk over your life than virtually any other market you're likely to come across in the real world."</p><p>Certainly, you're correct that my post was not a general reflection of the academic studies of grand ole' Economics (capital E), but even you grudgingly admit that there "is some truth".  You then refute some of my points, without taking the time to explain the refutations.  Tsk, tsk.  How shameful.  One may as well say "you're wrong" and then leave it at that, smugly smiling in the corner while awaiting accolades for such an obvious "owning".  </p><p>So, beyond the semantics, if I'm wrong, then I'd welcome a healthy debate on why you feel I'm wrong.  If, however, you simply want to point out that you're an economist and you think Kendricke is a dunderhead, by all means, continue as you are.  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />   I'm more than capable of letting my statements - semantically elegant or otherwise - determine the strength of my points.  Of course, it's hard to refute statements which have no point other than to state the equivilant of "you're wrong and I wont' go into why", though, and besides, I'd much rather engage your thoughts on the matter rather than your tsking red pen.  </p><p>I look forward to seeing something of substance from you as a response, perhaps to invigorate a flagging conversation.  I'll try to bring my standards up to yours for the remainder of the discussion, though.  I may even brush off an old volume or three. </p>

Jrral
06-02-2007, 01:47 PM
<cite>Sokolov wrote:</cite><blockquote>One of the interesting things about the Norrath economy is that while it should be fairly easy to explore all the niche markets via the broker, there are many individuals enjoying a monopoly in certain markets.  This is not to say that they are barring others from entering that market, but that others are not even looking at entering it.  For instance, for about 4 months I had a monopoly on level 56-60 Adept 3s on Mistmoore for Scouts.  For some reason, no one else sold these despite the fact that, based on my brisk sales, there was a fairly strong demand for these Adept 3s. </blockquote>One possibility is that there were in fact a lot of other people selling those Ad3s. They were merely selling in the other market, the one not represented on the broker: direct commisions. The high-level crafters I know can make several plat in a few hours taking orders, so that market's obviously lucrative. I know I buy the vast majority of my Ad3s and gear from them since their prices are far, far lower than on the broker. I go to the broker only to see if there's an M1 up particularly cheap, or if I'm in a real hurry. Judging from the lines and the number of repeat customers they have, I get the feeling this "grey" market's larger than the broker market.

LordPazuzu
06-03-2007, 12:56 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><p>I don't get this at all. I see this all the time and it's <b>driving me nuts!</b></p><p>Here is a sample scenario:</p><p>I usually sell sisal roots for around 12g and have sold many of them around this price. It's a good, stable market price. Then, this happens:</p><p>Someone will have up some sisal roots for 12g. I'll put up my sisal roots for 11g 95s. Someone else will put up their's for 11g 85s. Then, someone will put up his/her sisal roots for 7g, and everyone selling their's afterwards tries to go below those prices. So, the person who did the big skip from 11g 85s to 7g just lowered the market price for sisal roots by 4g for everyone. <b>Why, oh why? This just hurts everyone, including this person!</b></p><p>People were buying at 12g, so why go so much lower? If you want to go lower than the lowest currently listed item, just go for 11g 75s or something like that. <b>I just don't get it!</b> Do these people just not want to make money? Are they just stupid? Do they not want to make money to buy ridiculously expensive spells, weapons, armor, etc.?</p></blockquote>It's called undercutting the competition.  It happens in a free market and while it may not be healthy for your own bottomline, it's the sign of a healthy market.  You can always buy them out and resell if you really want to.  Or buy them out and sit on them to artificially increase their rarity.  Something only sells for more if it's harder to get.  Why do you think diamonds are so expensive?  Diamond companies artificially keep the supply down to increase rarity.  Same with Sony and PS3s.

Astrlidia
06-04-2007, 01:41 PM
<p>I do it all the time on the servers I play on, becuase I persoanlly think they are over charging. I do it with Adapt Is that I and my alts on that server don't need. I see how much other players are asking for them, and sell them for a few gold. I admit I do need the gold, but I personally think another player needs them more, than paying those inflated prices.</p><p>You seen those that are for lvl 3 going for 15 gold. How can a newbie afford them if they don't have a rich high leveled alt? You seen those poor souls begging for gold to afford their spells, if they want better than apprentice IIs.<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>