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CresentBlade
02-24-2007, 04:46 AM
<p>I have heard many people talking about the new 40% change in damage. I am curious how will this play out with the healer classes? I being a ranger have a very hard time trying to solo kill a healer now, but each class has its strength and weaknesses so is understandable. In most cases to take down a healer it requires a couple of people dumping heavy DPS on the healer to kill them and that does not always work either. Will this push healers into a overpowered position?</p><p>The up side is we will probably see a heck of alot more Coer/Illus about after this change since they are healers bane. Perhaps the time of the scout has come and gone and now its time for a new class to shine. </p><p>Please discuss in a civil manner and perhaps show some different views to this, it is very easy for us as players to get tunnel vision and it is nice to have input of others. There are quite a few healers about now and I think the numbers will increase 10 fold come the 40% patch. I hope people play what they like and have fun. I have faced 3 man groups of healers and even once a full group of healers, the game is about to get very interesting if this becomes the norm.</p><p>I feel no class should beable to one shot another (dam shadowknights<img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, I dont like getting near you now) it makes the fights end too fast. Some of the best fights I have ever had came down to one of us dead and the other at about 2% health. Win or lose those are fun fights!</p><p>What do you think?</p>

Norrsken
02-24-2007, 07:11 AM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><p>I have heard many people talking about the new 40% change in damage. I am curious how will this play out with the healer classes? I being a ranger have a very hard time trying to solo kill a healer now, but each class has its strength and weaknesses so is understandable. In most cases to take down a healer it requires a couple of people dumping heavy DPS on the healer to kill them and that does not always work either. Will this push healers into a overpowered position?</p><p>The up side is we will probably see a heck of alot more Coer/Illus about after this change since they are healers bane. Perhaps the time of the scout has come and gone and now its time for a new class to shine. </p><p>Please discuss in a civil manner and perhaps show some different views to this, it is very easy for us as players to get tunnel vision and it is nice to have input of others. There are quite a few healers about now and I think the numbers will increase 10 fold come the 40% patch. I hope people play what they like and have fun. I have faced 3 man groups of healers and even once a full group of healers, the game is about to get very interesting if this becomes the norm.</p><p>I feel no class should beable to one shot another (dam shadowknights<img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, I dont like getting near you now) it makes the fights end too fast. Some of the best fights I have ever had came down to one of us dead and the other at about 2% health. Win or lose those are fun fights!</p><p>What do you think?</p></blockquote>I can solo even con druids, since I am guessing that is the healers you are referring to. Can also solo templars and mystics. so you dont need a bucket of dps. you either outlast them (Quite possible) or make them not heal. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> As far as the enchanters, there were a small amount of new enchanters a cpl of months ago. Most that try the class quit it before it comes into it own. And, the coercer is probably the only class that pvps better in a zone that's in his own range. Prefferably one with a good, low resists orange con nuker mob. that kindof breaks off from the whole" PvP one tier under yours" mantra that at least nagafen has going. And they are tricky classes to play.  Once you get out of the hell levels (you're pretty much in t4 when you do) you pick up in power, but before then, you'd better have a group or you'll pretty much die. Nah, the healers, at least the druids, had their FotM burst already. So much so, everyone pretty much has one already. And I agree on the no oneshots. I have a sk, and Im looking forward to this change.

Fearborn
02-24-2007, 12:46 PM
<p>As a person that plays multiple wardens (all evil side), it's nice to make an analysis of tough opponents.</p><p>With decent gear, the surprise burst dps of a ranger is normally not a problem, as we have an instant-cast heal over time, plus 5 other heals 2 of which are pretty rapid cast.  With a good power pool its possible to weather an initial storm, build some heal over time monentum, then put the opponent on the back foot and switch to dps mode.</p><p>Illusionists are tough if they get off their early mezz, and keep me locked down.  It takes quite a lot to keep me perma-locked, and normally I can get the heals in when they switch to dps.  With low health normally I can nuke them quite rapidly.  I had one tough Illusionist who kept hiding behind a tree and I couldn't get a line of sight while his pet was beating me to a pulp.  This seems like a great tactic.</p><p>I have one on oned a few even con Illusionists and am yet to lose.</p><p>I agree with the above posts, I don't think one class should be able to one-shot another, as there is zero skill involved.  I also have nothing but disdain for these exile Shadow Knights that log in, one-shot Harm Touch then log out for 15 minutes waiting for Harm Touch to come back up.  They annoy me cause they have frustratingly nailed me twice now, and I hate dying without even having a chance to do something about it <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>An SK on a fast mount can basically pick a relevant target with infamy, 1 shot them, then log out.  Rinse and repeat every 15 minutes.  I have seen 2 such lowbies doing this to the point of boredom, but won't mention their names in case they think I have respect for them.</p><p>I think the main classes affected by a max 40% change will of course be Rangers, Assassins, Wizards, Shadow Knights.  Will it affect class balance?  Probably.  I don't think it will result in any severe nerf problems, and won't allow for any particular class to become over-powered.</p><p>Fearborn / Demorphic</p>

xXBubblez
02-24-2007, 01:27 PM
<span style="color: #66ffff">i thought they weren't putting the 40% cap in?  They change their minds?</span>

Radigazt
02-24-2007, 02:16 PM
<p>OK, I find this rather funny.  I posted last night (for about the 20th time) in favor of the 40% rule being implemented ... I think it's a great thing that will improve PvP.  Last night I also posted that I was considering rolling a Coercer ... now I see these things popping up in Gildorath's latest post.  Ironic.  </p><p>I agree with you Gildorath, the 40% rule is a great start in the direction of making PvP more enjoyable.  I think that if most pvp encounters took between 30 seconds and 3 minutes, everyone would find it more enjoyable.  Dying in 5 seconds or less really upsets people.  It's not that they died really, it's that they feel that they never had a chance to win, flee, or even seriously fight back.  All Predators and Rogues use their burst damage to dominate, but their half-second cast times means that in 5 seconds they can get 11 combat arts off in that time.  So, only the Assassins are really going to be nerfed at all by this, and it's not going to change their place in the PvP pecking order at all.  Instead of 1-shotting clothies, they'll 3-shot them in 1.5 seconds.  Shadowknights will lose the ability to 1-shot people ... and that's a good thing considering they're plate tanks.  But, the good SK's already know that the strength of their class isn't Harm Touch, but rather the life taps and other things they have that make them the tortoise that can win the race.  Another loser is going to be the Fury.  His Strike of Thunder and Starburst lines at Master 2 both do slightly more than 40% damage to some blue (mages) and green cons.  Not a big nerf for him, but it makes his AA line that gives criticals rather useless as those two are the only damage spells he gets except for 2 rather low dps DoT's.  I'm fine with all of those classes getting their big-hitters nerfed.</p><p>The one loser I've got sympathy for is the Wizard.  Supposedly, he's the king of DPS, but that's just not true.  His attacks are all heat/cold based and it's so easy to get heat/cold resistance that he's often resisted.  All of his big hitters (Ball of Fire, Ice Nova, Fusion, etc.) are going to be nerfed big time.  Given that he's got a 3-5 second cast on those, must stand still, is wearing cloth armor without a shield, has low hit points, and he's got a range that can be easily closed well before he casts ... he's losing a lot.  In 3-5 seconds any Predator or Rogue can pump out way more than 40% damage, and if he's a blue con Predator or Rogue, he'll almost certainly kill the Wizard in that time.  I'd like to see the Wizards get something special for their troubles.  I think the 40% damage rule makes a lot of sense, but IMHO, Wizards need a buff.  I've played a Wizard, and done very well with him in  great PvP group.  But, the class was underpowered, and now with the 40% rule, he's going to be even more underpowered.  I think SOE ought to consider ways to buff Wizards.  I wouldn't mind seeing them be able to cast on the run or something, but I realize that's probably not going to happen.  </p><p>Now the winners.  I think everyone benefits from more enjoyable PvP, but that's not what you want to hear.  I'd say that the biggest winners are the classes that do less than 40% damage, particularly those that have good DPS despite not doing more than 40% on any of them.  So, Warlocks, Rangers, Assassins, Swashy's, Brigands, and Wardens should all come out winners.  Warlocks do primarily DoT AoE damage, and no tick of their DoT's really hits for 40%, but if you take all the ticks together, it'll be more than 40% but not be nerfed by the 40% rule (which I think is fine).  So, the PvP DPS of a Warlock just shot way above the Wizard's DPS, because it's basically the same DPS as the Wizard but it's AoE and it hits multiple times, lol.  I've covered the Scout classes above, but it's worth mentioning that they're beefing up Troubies and Dirges damage, so they're really winners too becasue of their fast cast combat arts, but not as big as Predators and Rogues.  Also, Monks and Bruisers should benefit from this.  While Furies will see a bit of a nerf, Wardens--like Warlocks--kinda slip under the radar here.  Wardens have faster casting and faster recasting spells than Furies, but Wardens still do good single-target DPS.  None of their spells will be affected by the 40% rule, and their DPS will be unchanged.  Both the Fury and Druid share the same Druid AA lines (old KoS lines) and the best one is the one that gives you up to a 35% chance to critical.  While Furies will no longer really see the benefit in a post-40% rule world because their big hitters M2'd are already at the 40% cap and their other attacks are DoT's, a Warden gets the full benefit of the Intelligence line criticals.  So while the Fury may be nerfed a bit, the Warden will not.  </p><p>As for Coercers/Illusionists, I'd like to mention 2 things.  1) I'm considering rolling a Coercer not because of any rule changes, but rather because I've always loved playing the BlasTroller as we used to call it in City of Heros.  A Blaster was a mage-type ranged DPS class, and a Controller was a control class that used roots, snares, mezzes, charms, stuns, etc. to keep other players controlled.  Coercers are true controllers, but lack the DPS to really do anything with it.  But in a group, a Coercer can really dictate play, and that definitely appeals to me.  2) I don't think the 40% rule affects Coercers/Illusionists all that much.  The 40% rule will definitely make it easier for all mage classes to survive, particularly against yellow and orange cons.  Orange cons with decent arts/spells is usually certain death for mage classes.  Now, they'll have a chance to fight, control, run, etc.  From that point of view, it'll help all mage classes.  With only the Wizard being nerfed, the other 5 mage classes stand to benefit, which I think is good.  No, I doubt you'll see too many Coercers/Illusionists when the 40% rule goes live.  But, you definitely will not see as many Shadowknights who only Harm Touch people then camp for 15 minutes.  </p><p>Ultimately, here's how I see it on a scale of power with plusses and minuses for each class:</p><p>Wizards -10 ................. (gained survivability, lost significantly on their forte single-target uber dps) Shadowknights -3 ........(lost ultra-uber Harm Touch dps, but it's still a 40% quick cast spell) Assassins -2 .................(lost a little from their top dps lines, but they're still fantastic dps'ers) Furies -1 .......................(lost a little from Strike of Thunder and Starburst lines, and lost utility from their Intelligence AA line criticals)</p><p>Warlocks +2 .................(lost a little dps from their big hitters, but now their DoT's will be far superior to any other big hitters in the game, gained survivability) Rangers +1 ..................(lost nothing, will probably see more clothies, which is their bread and butter) Swashys +1 .................(same as Rangers) Brigands +1 .................(same as Rangers) Wardens +1 .................(lost nothing, their dps remains unchanged but is probably comparatively better as some other classes had their dps lowered) Illusionists +1 ..............(lost nothing, gained some survivability) Coercers +1 .................(same as Illusionists) Conjurors +1 ................(same as Illusionists) Necromancers +1 .........(same as Illusionists) Monks +1 .....................(same as Rangers, but there is also a Brawler mitigation buff on the way, which they'll benefit from greatly) Bruisers +1 ..................(same as Monks) Paladins +1 ..................(lost nothing, now will not have to worry as much about damage spikes)</p><p>Guardians +0 ...............(40% of MY health?  Who are you kidding, lol) Berserkers +0 ..............(you mean I gotta protect MORE clothies now?  ugh, OK, I'll do it, just don't forget to thank me if I need to wear my shield) Troubadors +0.5 ..........(lost nothing, but if/when they get a more scoutish buff, they'll jump up with the other scouts to a +1) Dirges +0.5 ..................(same as Troubadors)</p><p>As far as the class power shifts, that's how I see them.  But, I'd like to stress that when PvP encounters last 30 seconds to 3 minutes, everyone enjoys the encounter more than a 5 second kill.  The 40% rule is a good rule, but I'd encourage SOE to continue to tweak things to do away with the 5 second kills.  </p>

tass
02-24-2007, 02:31 PM
well they havent decided since it was never tested since they havent gotten the pvp test server up yet to test any of the upcoming changes. And as for wheather I support it or not personally I think any cap on the amount of dmg you do is idiotic. But then again I like ffa where the rules ystems are very different from just about every aspect of the countless rules for every aspect of this games pvp so maybe. it will make it better battles for the best and not let 1 single class rule the field. But then again looking at each of the classes the only thing I see is that while it does make survivability better for classes like mages and takes away the high dmg of certain classes, it still has its major faults when you look at different classes that aernt either. Take a monk or ur low dmg scouts. Scouts have chain so thats just a bonus that they dont have to worry about nukes same with monks or bruisers. But on the other hand all of thier attacks dont do over 40% dmg so they get the upper hand of pumping tons of under 40% dmg into you while being protected by the rules. And that is a loophole sort of. But an even bigger question comes to mind. You have this 40% cap. Whats going to happen when the player is like say around 100 health? Nuke for 40% 60 health. Nuke: 36 health all the way down. Is there a set health amount where the 40% ends?

Radigazt
02-24-2007, 02:52 PM
<p>OK Tass, just some udated information for you.  </p><p>1) The Devs have posted in a thread about the 40% rule that they're not going to implement it in LU32 because they're still working on getting the PvP Test Server up and running.  They're having some issues with that, dunno what they are, but we're told it's going up soon.  Yes, the 40% rule will be tested there before it goes live.  Everyone with characters on a PvP server will be able to copy their PvP toons over to the PvP Test Server.  There's a thread about it and the Dev responded with this info.  </p><p>2) I think you may be slightly misinformed about the 40% rule.  It does not cap damage at 40% of Current health, but rather it caps damage at 40% of Maximum health.  So, if your swashy has 1,000 hit points when at full health, then the maximum any art/spell can do to you is 400 points of damage.  If you happen to have 300 points of health left at the time and get Harm Touched, the HT will hit for 400 damage (which means you'll be quite dead, heh).  </p><p>So, classes that pump out damage in smaller chunks--like Swashys, Brigands, Monks and Bruisers--will instantly become the top dps'ers.  Toons that do damage in big chunks like Wizards, Furies, Assassins and Shadowknights will see some degree of nerfing.  But, the biggest thing is that green cons will have a bit more of a chance to get away or at least fight back.  Honestly, Rangers will love this change, as they make their living ganking clothies, and this change gives clothies a little more survivability, so maybe we'll see a few more of them ... mostly Warlocks most likely, heh.  I don't see this change really affecting Guardians, Berserkers or Paladins too much, though it's a nerf to Shadowknights and a bit of a buff to Monks and Bruisers because of their high dps coming in small chunks.  Troubies and Dirges are changing a little I think.  Those Bards have traditionally been much lower dps, especially in T6 and T7 than their other scout brothers.  The Dev's have mentioned that they're getting an upgrade to their damage though, so if/when that happens, we may see more Bards in PvP.  </p>

Zanid
02-25-2007, 05:35 PM
<p>I agree with the 40% cap in general since it eliminates one-shotting, which is not challenging for the attacker and even less fun for the victim. However, some other changes may be required. For example, my Mystic (who Radigazt failed to rate in his post) can already solo orange con Scouts and SKs (with the SKs being the harder of the two). As long as I can get my wards up...their uber DPS doesn't really faze me. If you cap that DPS, then they will go from having little chance against me to having none. Now I realize that there are some bad class match-ups, but no class should completely dominate another one on one. </p><p>As Radigazt mentioned, the big loser here will be the wizard. If they lose their big one-shot DPS, then they will need faster casting times or they will end every single fight with their opponent having exactly 60% health. </p><p>The big problem with the 40% fix is its impact on 50% of the population - Scouts. I agree that Scouts need to be nerfed since they are currently the kings of PvP. However, it's not their dmg output that makes them the kings, it's their ability to pick their fights, get away when things go poorly, and slaughter anyone that tries to run from them. This is why they have great kill ratios. However, healers and tanks should never struggle with a Scout if they know what they're doing. However, clothies are screwed vs Scouts. Unfortunately, the 40% rule magnifies the Scout's clothie match-up and further weakens their ability to kill healers and tanks (who already represent their toughest opponents). </p><p>Therefore, I think that a better fix would be to scale back ALL DPS in addition to a 40% cap. I also think that the non-rooting / non-snaring classes need some boosts. They simply have no way to escape bad match-ups, but also no way to finish off good match-ups. As a result, their kill/death ratio sucks, as do their titles. This is why nobody plays Pallys, Guardians, Berserkers, and Templars. It's pretty frustrating that a Scout can jump my Pally, then run off when things go poorly, and then continue to shadow me until either a) somebody else jumps me or b) I engage a PvE mob. If I see a fight I can win, they run away. If I see a fight I can't win, I'm rooted or snared before I can do anything about it. It's similar with my Mystic. However, my Mystic is so completely overpowered vs Scouts that most of them fail to run in time since they just cannot believe that they are getting owned by a greenie. That, and since I don't heal, they always feel as though I'm "almost dead" even though the reality is I have about 4000 health left of wards for them to burn through! I'd like to see the in-combat run speeds go to the non-rooting and non-snaring classes, and give Fighters a taunt (on a 15 min. timer) that pulls their opponent back to them and encounter locks them for 5s.</p>

Zaviur
02-25-2007, 07:30 PM
I'm all for the 40% limit on spells.  it's rather stupid to walk around while red's one shot you all the time.  At least give us time to defend ourselves.

Teh_Person
02-25-2007, 07:40 PM
Man, am I the only one who sees a lot of problems with this in its current state? Yes, I'm upset that myself as a wiz is going to be nerfed even further, but we're going to have raids in their teens that can fairly easily take out 70s after this kind of change. We're also going to have even more of the already over popular classes like swashy, brig, and druids. There may be a few more cloth wearers, especially conj and necros i believe, but for the most part this just puts a further gap between the classes that are already on top and the others.

Radigazt
02-25-2007, 09:34 PM
<p>I agree with everything that Zanidor said.  Sorry I didn't rate the Mystic and Defiler.  I don't think this will affect them in a major way, but I'd imagine they'd see no nerfs and virtually no change overall.  </p><p>Teh_Person ... no, you're not the only one who sees those problems, which is why I (Radigazt), Norrsken, Fearborn, Zanidor and others have mentioned it and think that Wizards need some sort of buff in PvP to compensate for it.  But, I think everyone will enjoy PvP more if the encounters last longer than 5 seconds.  </p>

Valdar
02-25-2007, 10:32 PM
<cite>Radigazt wrote:</cite><blockquote> <p> Troubadors +0.5 ..........(lost nothing, but if/when they get a more scoutish buff, they'll jump up with the other scouts to a +1) Dirges +0.5 ..................(same as Troubadors)</p></blockquote>Don't aggree with this part. Burst dpswill be capped at 40% per combat art. In group vs group that means that you will want to raise the baseline dps to be able to burn through the other teams heals. To achieve that the bard's buffs will be a great asset. Also Illusionists & coercers should get a bigger part to play. As it will no longer be possible to just burn through the other groups heals it will be vital to interfere with healers at critical moments, like when the tank is in the yellow/red, to stop him from healing. All in all a reduction of damage is a great idea, but I would favour an overall reduction of dps over a hard % cap, which will have a huge impact on classes (assassin, sk, wiz) and aa lines (crit % increases) and also leave several other classes even more powerfull then they are now as they depend on smaller hits in the same time span (bruisers, brigands).

HerbertWalker
02-25-2007, 11:50 PM
<p>A fight vs a wizard needs to end in 15 seconds.  You or the wizard needs to be dead by then.</p><p>How exactly do you think they will rebalance this?</p>

Eluzay
02-26-2007, 11:29 AM
<cite>Radigazt wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>OK, I find this rather funny.  I posted last night (for about the 20th time) in favor of the 40% rule being implemented ... I think it's a great thing that will improve PvP.  Last night I also posted that I was considering rolling a Coercer ... now I see these things popping up in Gildorath's latest post.  Ironic.  </p><p>I agree with you Gildorath, the 40% rule is a great start in the direction of making PvP more enjoyable.  I think that if most pvp encounters took between 30 seconds and 3 minutes, everyone would find it more enjoyable.  Dying in 5 seconds or less really upsets people.  It's not that they died really, it's that they feel that they never had a chance to win, flee, or even seriously fight back.  All Predators and Rogues use their burst damage to dominate, but their half-second cast times means that in 5 seconds they can get 11 combat arts off in that time.  So, only the Assassins are really going to be nerfed at all by this, and it's not going to change their place in the PvP pecking order at all.  Instead of 1-shotting clothies, they'll 3-shot them in 1.5 seconds.  Shadowknights will lose the ability to 1-shot people ... and that's a good thing considering they're plate tanks.  But, the good SK's already know that the strength of their class isn't Harm Touch, but rather the life taps and other things they have that make them the tortoise that can win the race.  Another loser is going to be the Fury.  His Strike of Thunder and Starburst lines at Master 2 both do slightly more than 40% damage to some blue (mages) and green cons.  Not a big nerf for him, but it makes his AA line that gives criticals rather useless as those two are the only damage spells he gets except for 2 rather low dps DoT's.  I'm fine with all of those classes getting their big-hitters nerfed.</p><p>The one loser I've got sympathy for is the Wizard.  Supposedly, he's the king of DPS, but that's just not true.  His attacks are all heat/cold based and it's so easy to get heat/cold resistance that he's often resisted.  All of his big hitters (Ball of Fire, Ice Nova, Fusion, etc.) are going to be nerfed big time.  Given that he's got a 3-5 second cast on those, must stand still, is wearing cloth armor without a shield, has low hit points, and he's got a range that can be easily closed well before he casts ... he's losing a lot.  In 3-5 seconds any Predator or Rogue can pump out way more than 40% damage, and if he's a blue con Predator or Rogue, he'll almost certainly kill the Wizard in that time.  I'd like to see the Wizards get something special for their troubles.  I think the 40% damage rule makes a lot of sense, but IMHO, Wizards need a buff.  I've played a Wizard, and done very well with him in  great PvP group.  But, the class was underpowered, and now with the 40% rule, he's going to be even more underpowered.  I think SOE ought to consider ways to buff Wizards.  I wouldn't mind seeing them be able to cast on the run or something, but I realize that's probably not going to happen.  </p><p>Now the winners.  I think everyone benefits from more enjoyable PvP, but that's not what you want to hear.  I'd say that the biggest winners are the classes that do less than 40% damage, particularly those that have good DPS despite not doing more than 40% on any of them.  So, Warlocks, Rangers, Assassins, Swashy's, Brigands, and Wardens should all come out winners.  Warlocks do primarily DoT AoE damage, and no tick of their DoT's really hits for 40%, but if you take all the ticks together, it'll be more than 40% but not be nerfed by the 40% rule (which I think is fine).  So, the PvP DPS of a Warlock just shot way above the Wizard's DPS, because it's basically the same DPS as the Wizard but it's AoE and it hits multiple times, lol.  I've covered the Scout classes above, but it's worth mentioning that they're beefing up Troubies and Dirges damage, so they're really winners too becasue of their fast cast combat arts, but not as big as Predators and Rogues.  Also, Monks and Bruisers should benefit from this.  While Furies will see a bit of a nerf, Wardens--like Warlocks--kinda slip under the radar here.  Wardens have faster casting and faster recasting spells than Furies, but Wardens still do good single-target DPS.  None of their spells will be affected by the 40% rule, and their DPS will be unchanged.  Both the Fury and Druid share the same Druid AA lines (old KoS lines) and the best one is the one that gives you up to a 35% chance to critical.  While Furies will no longer really see the benefit in a post-40% rule world because their big hitters M2'd are already at the 40% cap and their other attacks are DoT's, a Warden gets the full benefit of the Intelligence line criticals.  So while the Fury may be nerfed a bit, the Warden will not.  </p><p>As for Coercers/Illusionists, I'd like to mention 2 things.  1) I'm considering rolling a Coercer not because of any rule changes, but rather because I've always loved playing the BlasTroller as we used to call it in City of Heros.  A Blaster was a mage-type ranged DPS class, and a Controller was a control class that used roots, snares, mezzes, charms, stuns, etc. to keep other players controlled.  Coercers are true controllers, but lack the DPS to really do anything with it.  But in a group, a Coercer can really dictate play, and that definitely appeals to me.  2) I don't think the 40% rule affects Coercers/Illusionists all that much.  The 40% rule will definitely make it easier for all mage classes to survive, particularly against yellow and orange cons.  Orange cons with decent arts/spells is usually certain death for mage classes.  Now, they'll have a chance to fight, control, run, etc.  From that point of view, it'll help all mage classes.  With only the Wizard being nerfed, the other 5 mage classes stand to benefit, which I think is good.  No, I doubt you'll see too many Coercers/Illusionists when the 40% rule goes live.  But, you definitely will not see as many Shadowknights who only Harm Touch people then camp for 15 minutes.  </p><p>Ultimately, here's how I see it on a scale of power with plusses and minuses for each class:</p><p>Wizards -10 ................. (gained survivability, lost significantly on their forte single-target uber dps) Shadowknights -3 ........(lost ultra-uber Harm Touch dps, but it's still a 40% quick cast spell) Assassins -2 .................(lost a little from their top dps lines, but they're still fantastic dps'ers) Furies -1 .......................(lost a little from Strike of Thunder and Starburst lines, and lost utility from their Intelligence AA line criticals)</p><p>Warlocks +2 .................(lost a little dps from their big hitters, but now their DoT's will be far superior to any other big hitters in the game, gained survivability) Rangers +1 ..................(lost nothing, will probably see more clothies, which is their bread and butter) Swashys +1 .................(same as Rangers) Brigands +1 .................(same as Rangers) Wardens +1 .................(lost nothing, their dps remains unchanged but is probably comparatively better as some other classes had their dps lowered) Illusionists +1 ..............(lost nothing, gained some survivability) Coercers +1 .................(same as Illusionists) Conjurors +1 ................(same as Illusionists) Necromancers +1 .........(same as Illusionists) Monks +1 .....................(same as Rangers, but there is also a Brawler mitigation buff on the way, which they'll benefit from greatly) Bruisers +1 ..................(same as Monks) Paladins +1 ..................(lost nothing, now will not have to worry as much about damage spikes)</p><p>Guardians +0 ...............(40% of MY health?  Who are you kidding, lol) Berserkers +0 ..............(you mean I gotta protect MORE clothies now?  ugh, OK, I'll do it, just don't forget to thank me if I need to wear my shield) Troubadors +0.5 ..........(lost nothing, but if/when they get a more scoutish buff, they'll jump up with the other scouts to a +1) Dirges +0.5 ..................(same as Troubadors)</p><p>As far as the class power shifts, that's how I see them.  But, I'd like to stress that when PvP encounters last 30 seconds to 3 minutes, everyone enjoys the encounter more than a 5 second kill.  The 40% rule is a good rule, but I'd encourage SOE to continue to tweak things to do away with the 5 second kills.  </p></blockquote> This change would create more swash/brig/monk/bruisers on the server as it is a +10 to all of them by your lists standards (assuming SK is -3). Take out all risk from other classes and they can just be annoyed by healers, great idea. the idea is horrible and would you please explain how ht is ultra uber? if you are dying to HT in one hit you suck, and I mean suck so bad you should be embarrassed to post, heck your kids should be embarrased to post, and this coming from an SK that currently runs about 540int in offensive mode. I dont mind a cap, but 40% is just too low.  A fabled out swashy with burns up is impossible to kill without HT if he is trying at all.  I have dueled one for hours to prove this to myself and him.  I get lots of fights that last 30 sec to 3 min tbh... the people whining are the people who are to LAZY to GET THE GEAR... this is a gear based game and people should get a clue about that before they whine about overpoweredness.

Bozidar
02-26-2007, 11:49 AM
last time i checked, this change was OFF the drawing board, because they realized how dumb it was.

Eluzay
02-26-2007, 03:48 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>last time i checked, this change was OFF the drawing board, because they realized how dumb it was.</blockquote> true enough, but there are people out there who think if they start shouting it will come  back, so has to be balanced by people who think it is a dumb idea

Radigazt
02-26-2007, 04:39 PM
<p>The PvP Test server is still being configured according to the PvP Test thread:</p><p><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=348148" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=348148</a></p><p>On the 2nd page of that thread one of the primary PvP Developers, <b>Archonix</b>, said:</p><p><b>"The test server is still being configured.  We had hoped to have it up well before GU32 was released to assist with extensive testing of the no-zoning changes.  Unfortunately complications arose, so it's going to take a bit more time. Due to the high-risk changes included with disabling zoning while engaged in PvP combat, we are postponing the change until after GU32 pending the launch of the Test server. I'm pleased to announce that everyone playing on PvP enabled servers will have the option to copy their characters over to PvP Test once it launches.  Much like /beta was used, you'll be able to activate a command in game (more on the specifics once we launch), and have your character copied over for testing.  /OOC cross-communication will be enabled to facilitate testing.  Other then that expect the rule set to match that on live for the time being."</b> He did not mention the 40% rule specifically, but it is my understanding that they will be testing it on the PvP Test server once that goes up.  And honestly, I firmly beleive the 40% rule is a great thing.  Those one-shotting Shadowknights who then camp for 15 minutes are getting a bit ridiculous.  </p>

Eluzay
02-26-2007, 04:48 PM
<cite>Radigazt wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The PvP Test server is still being configured according to the PvP Test thread:</p><p><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=348148" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=348148</a></p><p>On the 2nd page of that thread one of the primary PvP Developers, <b>Archonix</b>, said:</p><p><b>"The test server is still being configured.  We had hoped to have it up well before GU32 was released to assist with extensive testing of the no-zoning changes.  Unfortunately complications arose, so it's going to take a bit more time. Due to the high-risk changes included with disabling zoning while engaged in PvP combat, we are postponing the change until after GU32 pending the launch of the Test server. I'm pleased to announce that everyone playing on PvP enabled servers will have the option to copy their characters over to PvP Test once it launches.  Much like /beta was used, you'll be able to activate a command in game (more on the specifics once we launch), and have your character copied over for testing.  /OOC cross-communication will be enabled to facilitate testing.  Other then that expect the rule set to match that on live for the time being."</b> He did not mention the 40% rule specifically, but it is my understanding that they will be testing it on the PvP Test server once that goes up.  And honestly, I firmly beleive the 40% rule is a great thing.  Those one-shotting Shadowknights who then camp for 15 minutes are getting a bit ridiculous.  </p></blockquote>if you get one shotted by a HT then your gear really sucks, i mean really dude, it is time for you to find another game or someone to give you a clue on how to play lol. and your firm beleif in this rule really does not matter in the least to me because obviously you dont know how to gear up properly and that is why you are getting owned.

Viciousn
02-26-2007, 07:21 PM
<p>If that's really what's on the board I may stop playing wizzy... although the HT oneshot nerf would be lovely. But c'mon wizzies are a dps class that is very frail, lowering our dps will make it so that we can't kill anything unless we get the jump on them and then maybe we will win. Also it would make us less wanted in pvp groups.</p>

DynamicPerforman
02-26-2007, 08:11 PM
As a monk, I am constly being forced to run from x4 raids of greys.  I cannot kill them fast enough, and they can all somehow debuff me to level 1.  I had 42 trauma, 5 elemental, and about 20 more of others. 

Badaxe Ba
02-27-2007, 03:27 PM
<p>the math on a 40% cap means greys can rule all.</p><p>lvl 70 with 5000 health vs. </p><p>lvl 40 x6 with 2000 each</p><p>lvl 70 max hit per player 800, to kill x6 would take 15 perfect hits, and no heals by opposing side.</p><p>lvl 40 group can hit up to 2k each ( but we will say 1k hit for lvl 40) only 5 hits and dead 70.</p><p>This is inequitable.  A 40% dmg cap unbalances the game.  Some other solution is required.</p>

Mighty Melvor
02-27-2007, 08:03 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><p>the math on a 40% cap means greys can rule all.</p><p>lvl 70 with 5000 health vs. </p><p>lvl 40 x6 with 2000 each</p><p>lvl 70 max hit per player 800, to kill x6 would take 15 perfect hits, and no heals by opposing side.</p><p>lvl 40 group can hit up to 2k each ( but we will say 1k hit for lvl 40) only 5 hits and dead 70.</p><p>This is inequitable.  A 40% dmg cap unbalances the game.  Some other solution is required.</p></blockquote><p>I have to agree here.  Greys will dominate PvP if the 40% goes into effect.  If SOE wants to *limit* damage output, it should be scaled to the con that you are fighting.</p><p>Example: Red con: 10% cap Orange con: 20% cap Yellow con 30% cap White con: 40% cap Blue con: 50% cap Green con: 60% cap Grey con: unlimited</p><p>If damage caps are going to be instituted, SOE has to balance the damage based on con, not just simply put in a hard 40% cap.  40% across the board will make greybie x4 raids the PvP standard. </p>

Zaviur
02-27-2007, 09:58 PM
I think the change will be great.  I just turned 61 and have started leveling in T7 zones and atm I'm prime picking for any fper SK or wizard for a nice one shot.  So it is a great thing that I would be able to defend myself when going into a new tier. 

ZhouYu
02-28-2007, 03:33 AM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>last time i checked, this change was OFF the drawing board, because they realized how dumb it was.</blockquote> <i>I hope you are right because this would have been the dumbest change EQ2 pvp would have ever had. This would make scouts the already overpowered class even more over powered ..because brigands for example don't hit over 40% of someone's max health with any of their attacks ..but they do a lot of burst DPS. Sothey wouldn't have been effected ....now picture this ..a SK fights a brigand ..his PT which would his only escape from death if he is jumped by the brigand only does 40% of max health damage, after the PT used the SK is left pretty much helpless. If they want to make fights last longer ? either reduce EVERY damage and heal effects by 50% in pvp or give other classes means of survivablity.</i>

Kurindor_Mythecnea
02-28-2007, 06:39 AM
They had already commented its implementation would negate grey con relation. However, as many have stated, this is going to, likely, be the main basis for their inclusions of alterations within their Test PvP structuring (if, albeit, any others are planned). You guys should read the posts (copied, same thing, scattered and disbursed) of mine spelling out some due amends in relation to the two current populations and another aspect generally interrelated into most of our PvP.

Greenion
02-28-2007, 09:23 AM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><p>the math on a 40% cap means greys can rule all.</p><p>lvl 70 with 5000 health vs. </p><p>lvl 40 x6 with 2000 each</p><p>lvl 70 max hit per player 800, to kill x6 would take 15 perfect hits, and no heals by opposing side.</p><p>lvl 40 group can hit up to 2k each ( but we will say 1k hit for lvl 40) only 5 hits and dead 70.</p><p>This is inequitable.  A 40% dmg cap unbalances the game.  Some other solution is required.</p></blockquote><p> <span style="color: #339900">you are forgetting that the lvl 70 if in T7 armor should have mitigation and resistances that should cmpensate if such a limit to damage were used.</span></p><p><span style="color: #339900">actually i think they will be efforting a variation of it rather than a simple 40% across the board...</span></p><p><span style="color: #339900">the way you folks are describing the factors of a battle is not complete enough, nor is a flat damage cap.</span></p>

Greenion
02-28-2007, 09:51 AM
<p><span style="color: #339900">one thing to think about is the state of pvp in T7 zones once the level cap is at 100 or so...and there are four tiers of unlimited level ranges that players entering T7 are dealing with.</span></p><p><span style="color: #339900">because there will always be that element of poppulation ingame (power gamers) that hit max level first...of course, understandable and rightfully so, they put the effort into it.</span></p><p><span style="color: #339900">some of those that hit say...level 100 first are going to camp the living crud out of T7 because of the non limitation of targets within the zone being an advantage from the perspective of max level...being 30 lvls above zone level in an unlimited zone.</span></p><p><span style="color: #339900">ive been being chased around by groups pf chars 30 levels and more over me, i know what its like.</span></p>

Kurindor_Mythecnea
02-28-2007, 11:27 AM
<cite>Greenion wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="color: #339900">one thing to think about is the state of pvp in T7 zones once the level cap is at 100 or so...and there are four tiers of unlimited level ranges that players entering T7 are dealing with.</span></p><p><span style="color: #339900">because there will always be that element of poppulation ingame (power gamers) that hit max level first...of course, understandable and rightfully so, they put the effort into it.</span></p><p><span style="color: #339900">some of those that hit say...level 100 first are going to camp the living crud out of T7 because of the non limitation of targets within the zone being an advantage from the perspective of max level...being 30 lvls above zone level in an unlimited zone.</span></p><p><span style="color: #339900">ive been being chased around by groups pf chars 30 levels and more over me, i know what its like.</span></p></blockquote>I don't think your experience is relatable in that it was done so under a circumstance impartial to the situation of many others viewing your comments. When new level caps are introduced, there will be those refreshed by the new capacity and with those who attempt to grief the lower-level players of a lesser caliber, there will be those to compete against them. I think it's fine and everything that I've stated myself as having been pro-reform for I still stick to -- <b><i>everything</i></b> I've given word of my approval for, I <b><i>deeply</i></b> want it to be in game, and feel that it truly ought be.

ZhouYu
02-28-2007, 06:29 PM
<cite>Kurindor_Mythecnea wrote:</cite><blockquote>They had already commented its implementation would negate grey con relation. However, as many have stated, this is going to, likely, be the main basis for their inclusions of alterations within their Test PvP structuring (if, albeit, any others are planned). You guys should read the posts (copied, same thing, scattered and disbursed) of mine spelling out some due amends in relation to the two current populations and another aspect generally interrelated into most of our PvP. </blockquote><p> Sorry I disagree. There is a lvl base defence and resist system in the game that will prevent that. the main reaso nfor the change not going thru is ...list how many classes are able to hit for over 40% of someone's max health with one shot : </p><p>Ranger (long cast time and long cool down) </p><p>Wizards (long cast time and have to stand still)</p><p> Assasin ( Long cool down) </p><p> Shadowknight (easily resisted/migatted, long cool down, only source of high dps) </p><p>Now such a change would ONLY effect the above classes, how would this make scouts ? Brigands and swashbucklers may not hit for over 40% of someone's health in one hit ...but in 5seconds that it takes a wizard standing stil land not interrupted to hit for lets say 5k ...in 5 seconds a brigand or scout could hit for over 5k in damage compared to the wizard. Such a change would totally nerf the above classes while further overpowering the scouts, other classes woukd remain unaffected. </p>