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View Full Version : Imbalance in Spells Vs CA's


THEWELL
02-16-2007, 02:49 AM
<p>Wanted to hopefully bring this to a dev's attention, as it seems to be a major imbalance in reguards to pvp spells vs ca's.</p><p>We'll use the SK's Harm Touch for example.  15 min timer...massive damge.  Up to like 5k at lvl 70.  </p><p>So lets say the SK uses his harm touch and you resist it.  Well even though its on a 15 min timer, that spell is useable again within a few minutes due to the fact it was resisted.</p><p>Now lets look at the Assassin Decapitation and Ranger's Sniper Shot.  Both on 15 min timers, and do massive damage.  Same as the SK's harm touch it seems.  </p><p>YET!</p><p>If someone blocks or parry's the decap or sniper shot, that CA still goes down for a full 15 min recast timer.  Unlike the HT being resisted and useable again in just a few min.</p><p>BTW, this is just an example, and should be changed for all spells vs melee combat arts...not just the ones on long timers.  Alot of melee combat arts get blocked or parried, yet go down for full timers.  Yet no spells that get resisted goes down for the full timers.</p><p>Parry / Block should = Resists</p><p>Should be looked into IMO</p>

chrystolr
02-16-2007, 03:05 AM
Well I know for a ranger if sniper shot is parried rangers wont care much. Earlier today my rain of arrows hit for more damage when I used both in the same fight haha. But for a assasin I know that its really bad. Especially now I only see assassins running at me with decap quered. But yeah this should be changed. I have only around 30%+ disease resist and SK's can HT me for well over my total HP without crit. I had a SK actually HT me 3 times in a fight, the first 2 I resisted and 3rd landed and did 95% of my HP while he was on his last limb under 5% hp killing me. Strange thing is I have a SK on another server and I often fought in duels and could of sworn my HT had to wait the 15min when it was resisted? Might be a pvp only change though for the instant recast.

THEWELL
02-16-2007, 04:06 AM
Yea, there is nothing like "woot I resisted a 4k HT"....then 30 seconds later in the fight, through all the SK's heals and mitigation you get him in red...and bam...the 4k HT hits.

Norrsken
02-16-2007, 08:32 AM
<cite>THEWELL wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Wanted to hopefully bring this to a dev's attention, as it seems to be a major imbalance in reguards to pvp spells vs ca's.</p><p>We'll use the SK's Harm Touch for example.  15 min timer...massive damge.  Up to like 5k at lvl 70.  </p><p>So lets say the SK uses his harm touch and you resist it.  Well even though its on a 15 min timer, that spell is useable again within a few minutes due to the fact it was resisted.</p><p>Now lets look at the Assassin Decapitation and Ranger's Sniper Shot.  Both on 15 min timers, and do massive damage.  Same as the SK's harm touch it seems.  </p><p>YET!</p><p>If someone blocks or parry's the decap or sniper shot, that CA still goes down for a full 15 min recast timer.  Unlike the HT being resisted and useable again in just a few min.</p><p>BTW, this is just an example, and should be changed for all spells vs melee combat arts...not just the ones on long timers.  Alot of melee combat arts get blocked or parried, yet go down for full timers.  Yet no spells that get resisted goes down for the full timers.</p><p>Parry / Block should = Resists</p><p>Should be looked into IMO</p></blockquote><p>On the OTHER hand, every [Removed for Content] person in the game cannot with ease attain both 50% avoidance, and 50% mitigation, but they can with disease resists, thus your assassinate, or decapitate, will not miss even by a far abount, as much as a spell. And, to add further intjury to insult, most people do not have 360 degrees avoidance. Everyone and their granny has that for spell resists.</p><p> And, if you really wanted to make a point, take ice nova as an example instead. Hits harder, shorter reuse. </p>

Norrsken
02-16-2007, 08:33 AM
<cite>chrystolred wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well I know for a ranger if sniper shot is parried rangers wont care much. Earlier today my rain of arrows hit for more damage when I used both in the same fight haha. But for a assasin I know that its really bad. Especially now I only see assassins running at me with decap quered. But yeah this should be changed. I have only around 30%+ disease resist and SK's can HT me for well over my total HP without crit. I had a SK actually HT me 3 times in a fight, the first 2 I resisted and 3rd landed and did 95% of my HP while he was on his last limb under 5% hp killing me. Strange thing is I have a SK on another server and I often fought in duels and could of sworn my HT had to wait the 15min when it was resisted? Might be a pvp only change though for the instant recast. </blockquote> No, its a few seconds. On the other hand, if the guy you are fighting takes the blow (With wards, stoneskin or whatever else) it will look like a resist, but you will get 15 minutes (Since you hit them, they just took the blow)

Eluzay
02-16-2007, 10:59 AM
<cite>THEWELL wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Wanted to hopefully bring this to a dev's attention, as it seems to be a major imbalance in reguards to pvp spells vs ca's.</p><p>We'll use the SK's Harm Touch for example.  15 min timer...massive damge.  Up to like 5k at lvl 70.  </p><p>So lets say the SK uses his harm touch and you resist it.  Well even though its on a 15 min timer, that spell is useable again within a few minutes due to the fact it was resisted.</p><p>Now lets look at the Assassin Decapitation and Ranger's Sniper Shot.  Both on 15 min timers, and do massive damage.  Same as the SK's harm touch it seems.  </p><p>YET!</p><p>If someone blocks or parry's the decap or sniper shot, that CA still goes down for a full 15 min recast timer.  Unlike the HT being resisted and useable again in just a few min.</p><p>BTW, this is just an example, and should be changed for all spells vs melee combat arts...not just the ones on long timers.  Alot of melee combat arts get blocked or parried, yet go down for full timers.  Yet no spells that get resisted goes down for the full timers.</p><p>Parry / Block should = Resists</p><p>Should be looked into IMO</p></blockquote>the fact of the matter in your example is that both ranger and assasin have other very large hits (in the assasins case hits that hit almost as hard as a ht) that are on MUCH shorter than 15 minute timers. beyond that one example most CA's are short casts, and MOST CASTERS have to cast their big hits over multiple seconds and they cannot move. personally i think it is fine like it is. they seemed to have a good balance fact of the matter is people using CA's get more pvp kills than people casting spells, scouts and brawlers are king of the hill in pvp so that fact alone says to me that your nerf call is completely unfounded... you want ca's to be MORE powerfull? lol soz <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

THEWELL
02-19-2007, 12:09 PM
<cite>Norrsken wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>THEWELL wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Wanted to hopefully bring this to a dev's attention, as it seems to be a major imbalance in reguards to pvp spells vs ca's.</p><p>We'll use the SK's Harm Touch for example.  15 min timer...massive damge.  Up to like 5k at lvl 70.  </p><p>So lets say the SK uses his harm touch and you resist it.  Well even though its on a 15 min timer, that spell is useable again within a few minutes due to the fact it was resisted.</p><p>Now lets look at the Assassin Decapitation and Ranger's Sniper Shot.  Both on 15 min timers, and do massive damage.  Same as the SK's harm touch it seems.  </p><p>YET!</p><p>If someone blocks or parry's the decap or sniper shot, that CA still goes down for a full 15 min recast timer.  Unlike the HT being resisted and useable again in just a few min.</p><p>BTW, this is just an example, and should be changed for all spells vs melee combat arts...not just the ones on long timers.  Alot of melee combat arts get blocked or parried, yet go down for full timers.  Yet no spells that get resisted goes down for the full timers.</p><p>Parry / Block should = Resists</p><p>Should be looked into IMO</p></blockquote><p>On the OTHER hand, every [I cannot control my vocabulary] person in the game cannot with ease attain both 50% avoidance, and 50% mitigation, but they can with disease resists, thus your assassinate, or decapitate, will not miss even by a far abount, as much as a spell. And, to add further intjury to insult, most people do not have 360 degrees avoidance. Everyone and their granny has that for spell resists.</p><p> And, if you really wanted to make a point, take ice nova as an example instead. Hits harder, shorter reuse.</p><p>  </p></blockquote><p>I agree with your post 100%.  Which is the exact point I'm trying to make.  Even with good disease resists, if you resist it, its up again in a few seconds and you get hit with it again.  Making resists totally pointless.</p><p>The person above said she got hit with it 3 times in a single fight. The guy kept spamming it, untill it landed.  So whats the point of resists again?  As for the shorter timers...decap and sniper shot are on 15 min timers, the same as the SK HT, unless they go down the AA line to reduce the recast time.</p><p>And i've seen HT's do 4-5k damage, ahell of a lot more then snipershot.  It usually does 1-2k dmg in pvp, unless its a cloth wearer. </p>

Spag
02-19-2007, 01:18 PM
So is your issue with all spells working like this or just Harmtouch?

Badaxe Ba
02-19-2007, 03:04 PM
FYI sniper shot requires stealth and nonmovement, or else you get 'interrupted'.  As for rangers having more than one powerful CA, this isn't actually true.  It takes AA's and CA upgrades to achieve the most out of our abilities, we only have two ranged attacks that can be used while moving, and one of those requires stealth as well to fire. Once we lose range, and close to melee, we just don't have a whole lot of power strikes.  Also, at 70, Sniper shot is a grey CA.  think about YOUR abilities when they are grey, how powerful are they?

Zanid
02-19-2007, 03:54 PM
<p>While I agree with the OP with regards to the power of HT and the frustration of knowing that a resist only buys you another few seconds before they will try again, I cannot agree with the call to nerf SKs (especially when the example used is from a Scout). </p><p>Scout DPS is insane, and the ONLY comparable attack that the SK gets is HT. If SKs were so unbalanced, then we'd be seeing a LOT more of them. Instead, 50% of players hunting in PvP are Scouts. Next most popular seems to be healers (especially druids). Then mages are a distant third (primarily conj/necro), and finally Fighters bring up the rear. </p><p>Kep in mind that EQ2's concept of balance in PvP is the rock-paper-scissors kind of balance. Scouts are supposed to struggle with Fighters. If your Scout cannot kill an SK, it's because they're not supposed to be able to. It's a bad match-up. Send in a healer and the SK is useless. Ditto for a Mage if the mage can get root to land. </p><p>Granted, SKs are likely the best Fighter class (thanks to HT), but they are a far cry from Scouts in the PvP world. My 19 Mystic was methodically taking down a 22 SK (until she got ganked by about 6 blues), so they're hardly in need of a nerf. HT is extremely powerful, but then so are my Ward, Group Ward, 50% SoW, and 200+ group MIT buff.</p><p>If you take away the SK's HT, then they're absolutely useless for PvP.</p><p>By the way, I don't play an SK, and I HATE getting hit with HT as much as everyone else. However, I also HATE getting rooted, snared, backstabbed, DoT'd, stunned, and stifled! Once you know that you're up against an SK, you simply have to adjust your strategy accordingly (as you should for any opponent). For example, try to keep him snared and out of range if you're a Ranger (or simply do not engage). Casters should keep them rooted / stifled. With my Mystic, I make sure I'm always warded and full health, whereas against most other opponents, I do not care about my health as long as my wards are up. If a healer lives through the HT, it's smooth sailing. The other classes need to keep the HT from getting cast in the first place. </p><p>Conclusion: Don't nerf the SK - they're a formidable, but beatable opponent (as all classes should be). </p>

Wytie
02-19-2007, 04:10 PM
<p>ok you got pwn'd by a SK </p><p>big deal SK's get pwnd by furys all day long even with HT up.....</p><p>It our only thing we got and you dont like it hell i dont like pact of cheeta or ranger sprint speed or swash aoe and mit or wardens roots or illu mezz, scout track, healers heals what the hell are you thinking???</p><p>cry more nerfs noob, if i see you ill HT just for the hell of it, but ill debuff ya first.</p><p> i bet youve never been HT from a SK like me  <img src="/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

HerbertWalker
02-19-2007, 08:52 PM
<p>It's not an imbalance.  The SK HT is purposely designed that way in the name of balance.</p><p>Why would someone think that every spell and CA must function with the same mechanics?  Having them with separate mechanics allows the devs the freedom to balance them all separately.</p><p>Also, this thread (and countless other threads) attempts to compare classes in solo PvP, and goes out on a limb implying that all classes are not equal in solo PvP.  Well, no sht Sherlock.  No one <b>ever</b> claimed that classes are balanced in solo PvP.  Some are waaaaaaayyyy better than others.</p><p>Go play a guardian then come back here and complain about scout CA timers haha.</p><p>GROUP.... THEN GO PVP.   But NEVER go out solo and then come here whining!  The group game is balanced.  Quit trying to pretend anything regarding solo balance.</p>

Splintered
02-20-2007, 12:17 AM
while i partially agree with the original poster, i would kinda do the opposite, you attempt to use a spell or combat art, then you actually should use it, if it misses or is resisted, well, then your sol...

THEWELL
02-20-2007, 02:51 AM
<p>1st off, i'm not comming here asking for SK's to be nerfed.  If thats what you think, then you didn't read the entire post.  I never asked for HT to get nerfed.</p><p> I simply stated that if a CA gets blocked, parried, or outright misses, it goes down for the full timer.</p><p>And I believe spells should be done in the same reguards.  If you resist a spell, it should be the same as blocking or parrying a CA.</p><p>The spell should go down for its FULL reuse timer.</p><p> I never said to NERF SK's HT.  I simply used it as an example.</p><p> People need to learn to read a post, before they automaticly start flaming.</p>

Kasai
02-20-2007, 04:21 AM
Think about it, it's MUCH eaiser to get good resists than good mitigation/avoidance.  Casters resist big moves a lot more than people avoid them because the way the resists/avodance works.  It would turn casters who have problems with resists bascially impossible to play because you would lose hte timer when the spell is used and resisted.

Norrsken
02-20-2007, 06:29 AM
<cite>Wytie wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>ok you got pwn'd by a SK </p><p>big deal SK's get pwnd by furys all day long even with HT up.....</p><p>It our only thing we got and you dont like it hell i dont like pact of cheeta or ranger sprint speed or swash aoe and mit or wardens roots or illu mezz, scout track, healers heals what the hell are you thinking???</p><p>cry more nerfs noob, if i see you ill HT just for the hell of it, but ill debuff ya first.</p><p> i bet youve never been HT from a SK like me  <img src="/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote>Unless its 50+ where good sks should own furies on a regular basis.

Norrsken
02-20-2007, 06:32 AM
And, nerf HT all you want. Just give my SK something to make up for it. Cut the damage in half and cut the reuse to 2-3 mins, idc. Its only gravy anyways. But if you do that, you better make [I cannot control my vocabulary] sure you give sks more taunting capability. And as far as it being up a few seconds after being resisted. I've fought quite a few players that knows how to survive the HT blast. Learn and adapt. (HEck, one warden when we were lvl 44 ate it three times during one fight, looooong fight.)

HerbertWalker
02-22-2007, 12:52 AM
<cite>THEWELL wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>1st off, i'm not comming here asking for SK's to be nerfed.  If thats what you think, then you didn't read the entire post.  I never asked for HT to get nerfed.</p><p> I simply stated that if a CA gets blocked, parried, or outright misses, it goes down for the full timer.</p><p>And I believe spells should be done in the same reguards.  If you resist a spell, it should be the same as blocking or parrying a CA.</p><p>The spell should go down for its FULL reuse timer.</p><p> I never said to NERF SK's HT.  I simply used it as an example.</p><p> People need to learn to read a post, before they automaticly start flaming.</p></blockquote><p>OK then, I disagree with your opinion that in order to balance spells and CA's, they all should follow the same mechanic.  A better solution is to give love to those classes that need a boost by letting them recast some of their spells/CA's following a resist, and make some of the powerful CA's of the powerful classes go inactive for the full timer.</p><p>ie.  Guardians or Brigands.  Who needs some love?  There is one answer and it's not "both."</p>

JohnDoe0
02-22-2007, 01:28 AM
<cite>HerbertWalker wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>THEWELL wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>1st off, i'm not comming here asking for SK's to be nerfed.  If thats what you think, then you didn't read the entire post.  I never asked for HT to get nerfed.</p><p> I simply stated that if a CA gets blocked, parried, or outright misses, it goes down for the full timer.</p><p>And I believe spells should be done in the same reguards.  If you resist a spell, it should be the same as blocking or parrying a CA.</p><p>The spell should go down for its FULL reuse timer.</p><p> I never said to NERF SK's HT.  I simply used it as an example.</p><p> People need to learn to read a post, before they automaticly start flaming.</p></blockquote><p>OK then, I disagree with your opinion that in order to balance spells and CA's, they all should follow the same mechanic.  A better solution is to give love to those classes that need a boost by letting them recast some of their spells/CA's following a resist, <span style="font-size: xx-large"><b>and make some of the powerful CA's of the powerful classes go inactive for the full timer.</b></span></p><p>ie.  Guardians or Brigands.  Who needs some love?  There is one answer and it's not "both."</p></blockquote>You're not very bright....

PsycoSWG
02-22-2007, 03:33 AM
<p>Way different mechanics.</p><p> Go play a caster, please. The amount of time it takes me to even land a spell on some classes just appalls me. To get my 2 DOT's ticking on a scout with high resists can take 6-7 casts. As a fury, I have 4 offensive attacks. Four. You have more than that by level 10. If one of your attacks fails to hit, no biggy. You have 15 others at your disposal. If what you're asking for was implemented, you'd effectively destroy all caster pvp (mages and healers).</p>

Kurindor_Mythecnea
02-22-2007, 06:22 AM
<b>Here's part of a post I made in the thread regarding zoning.</b> Really though, what I want in the LU is something that balances insta-kill assurances. There doesn't need to be some "feature" of a class that you are made to wait 15 minutes to use for some ludicrous amount that makes a super-majority of those title-holders denigrate the relevance to longevity and battlefield management ranks could have -- something that would truly show a warrior (and with this, I am pretty much inferring to a centralization upon the function of HT -- it ought stand between something like SOT and Assassin's Blade [with SOT also receiving a nerf]*).. I think the change would be good if they limited in-combat runspeed to 20% and gave the classes without some runspeed a 12.5% snare earlier on (Inquisitor, Shadowknight, Bruiser; it's really just like a Maligned type of technique -- managing to encumber your opponents motor skills). * - Default Direct Damage Strength Assassin's Blade: Master I 699-1165            - 180 s Strike of Thunder: Master I 354-589              -   15 s Harm Touch: Master I 749-1249            - 900 s Ball of Fire: Master I 392-728              -     9 s Harm Touch: Graded to Strike of Thunder (1/60 potent) 12.48-20.82        -   15 s Harm Touch: Graded to Assassin's Blade (1/5 potent) 149.8-249.8        - 180 s Assassin's Blade: Graded to Strike of Thunder (1/12th potent) 58.25-97.08        -   15 s Strike of Thunder: Graded to Ball of Fire (1/1.6 potent) 221.25-368.125  -     9 s Harm Touch: Graded to Ball of Fire (1/100 potent) 7.49-12.49          -     9 s Assassin's Blade: Graded to Ball of Fire (1/20 potent) 34.95-58.25        -     9 s A supposed "Battle Mage Caster Tank", some particular class completely obliterates a footing that really ought have some plateau to it. Both the Warriors and the Priests are core sectors known for enduring survival. What I conceived as an approach attempted was to divvy up damage  according to capacity for longevity. For Priests like Fury, who have fast casted Heal Spells and Shadowknights who really ought only sustain a mitigation con less than the two other plate tanks who can't push DPS like Shadowknights can (i.e. move Berserkers to 20% mit, and Guardians to 25% mit in their respective defensive stances. The whole significance of this noted contemplation lies in the realm of resting upon a perfect equilibrium between, at least, the classes meant for the relative self-sustaining. SOT needs to be at least 1/10th the power of the correlated DD Mage, not 1/1.6th. Harm Touch should be moved to 1/15th the power of the other relative high DD classes, with a timer of 45 seconds. I think these movements will even out two hardcore power classes beyond the far-spectrum DPS condition (T5-T7). Honestly, pay attention to the post I've just made, as I truly think it holds advocation that could definitely make the PvP experience a lot more enjoyable, relishing, and overall encompassing of an atmosphere more satisfying when you're able to have some awesome fights with these classes without the afterthought of "power class". (P.S. Also, I've been curious as to whether or not the perception of other gear not equipped while mentored ought require addressing [that which degrades the item condition consideration to your current mentored level] -- is this a bug, or no?)