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Camibella
02-15-2007, 11:00 AM
<p>(oh boy I know I'm gonna take some heat for this one!)</p><p>SoE has done a lot to make this game more enjoyable for the "Casual" player, which is fine by me. But in turn they have crippled raiding guilds. </p><p>What's the incentive to raid? It's not like theirs MUCH (note I said much, indicating that there may be a handful of items) gear out there that makes people go OHH! I want to join a raiding guild and get geared up like that!</p><p>Most single group EoF instances / dungeons offer gear extremely comparable to what can be obtained on raids. Shouldn't gear that takes 24 people to get, be a bit better then gear that takes 6? </p><p>I remember WAY back in the day in EQ1 I wanted a full set of wolfcaller (if that's what it was called I cant recall the name) armor for my shaman. I was talking to a friend of mine at work about it at and he was all "Good Luck! You will probably never have gear like that. It takes a raiding guild to get that stuff!" From that day on, a raider was born! Achieving my full shaman wolfcaller gear was something back then I was exceptionally proud of. Everyone and their brother weren't running around in it, it had a distinctive look to it and it wasn't easily obtainable. I died beside 72 other people many nights to be able to wear that gear with pride!</p><p>Here again relating back to EQ1 back in the day., raiding we saw mobs that only a small handful of the population (back then) would ever be able to see, let alone take down. </p><p>Plane of Time Flagging (as MUCH OF A PAIN IN THE REAR AS IT WAS!!!) built guilds (I know it tore its fair share apart as well). Made it necessary to log in to stay current in progression and gave a large general goal to work for! </p><p>Keep what you have for heroic content and groupable encounters and drops. But give those who commit to a play style (because they like it) something to show for it in return! And like it or not YES a group of 6 people geared in raid gear SHOULD have an easier time in instances vs a group of 6 casual players. They raid together, they have learned how to work well with one another as well as spilled enough blood together to adorn gear that makes them a little tougher. </p><p>Bring the raid back to the game. There are still a few people out there who enjoy that old past time! Please?</p><p>PS: And fix the raid window so that raid leaders dont have to drink a full bottle of vodka to deal with its buggyness!</p>

Dasto
02-15-2007, 11:43 AM
<p><span style="font-size: small">did you come from EQ1 or something? </span></p><p><span style="font-size: small">The gear you get from raiding is way better then causual group gear</span></p><p><span style="font-size: small">and raiding is far more fun then grouping and very hard and challenging to try to get to the end of the zone.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: small">the last thing EQ2 wants to do is make the raid gear way out of whack better then group gear like EQ1.  Thats one of the main reasons people are here and not EQ1 there is still a group game here.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: small">The min they make the raid gear way way better and put in flagging, I will cancel my account the next second.</span></p>

Tomanak
02-15-2007, 11:44 AM
<p>You elitist pig... (ok theres the flame <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> )</p><p><i>What's the incentive to raid?</i> </p><p>The incentive to raid is the ability to see content that I would never see as a non raider. To spend 2-3 hours cutting up and spending time with friends in my guild. To take down mobs that I couldnt in a group and to feel that rush of pride, exhilaration and relief as that mob dies after the 8th, 9th or 10th time you try. </p><p>I may well be in the minority here, but the loot is a small (a very small) part of it. As it stands I have a 1/24 chance of getting a general use item and probably a 1/12 chance in getting a specific item. So to me the incentive has nothing to do with the items and everything to do with the process.</p><p>As to the lack of uberness between legendary and fabled items, I think that horse has been beat, burnt and had its ashes scattered....an old argument. One thats not going to be solved to your satisfaction this late in the game. </p>

Camibella
02-15-2007, 11:52 AM
<p>~edit~</p><p>Missfired post =P Looked up the wrong user name =) Sorry about that =)</p>

Poetelia
02-15-2007, 02:52 PM
<p>Camibella wrote: </p><blockquote><p>(oh boy I know I'm gonna take some heat for this one!)</p><p>SoE has done a lot to make this game more enjoyable for the "Casual" player, which is fine by me. But in turn they have crippled raiding guilds. </p><p>What's the incentive to raid? It's not like theirs MUCH (note I said much, indicating that there may be a handful of items) gear out there that makes people go OHH! I want to join a raiding guild and get geared up like that!</p><p>Most single group EoF instances / dungeons offer gear extremely comparable to what can be obtained on raids. Shouldn't gear that takes 24 people to get, be a bit better then gear that takes 6? </p><p>I remember WAY back in the day in EQ1 I wanted a full set of wolfcaller (if that's what it was called I cant recall the name) armor for my shaman. I was talking to a friend of mine at work about it at and he was all "Good Luck! You will probably never have gear like that. It takes a raiding guild to get that stuff!" From that day on, a raider was born! Achieving my full shaman wolfcaller gear was something back then I was exceptionally proud of. Everyone and their brother weren't running around in it, it had a distinctive look to it and it wasn't easily obtainable. I died beside 72 other people many nights to be able to wear that gear with pride!</p><p>Here again relating back to EQ1 back in the day., raiding we saw mobs that only a small handful of the population (back then) would ever be able to see, let alone take down. </p><p>Plane of Time Flagging (as MUCH OF A PAIN IN THE REAR AS IT WAS!!!) built guilds (I know it tore its fair share apart as well). Made it necessary to log in to stay current in progression and gave a large general goal to work for! </p><p>Keep what you have for heroic content and groupable encounters and drops. But give those who commit to a play style (because they like it) something to show for it in return! And like it or not YES a group of 6 people geared in raid gear SHOULD have an easier time in instances vs a group of 6 casual players. They raid together, they have learned how to work well with one another as well as spilled enough blood together to adorn gear that makes them a little tougher. </p><p>Bring the raid back to the game. There are still a few people out there who enjoy that old past time! Please?</p><p>PS: And fix the raid window so that raid leaders dont have to drink a full bottle of vodka to deal with its buggyness!</p></blockquote><p>To give more to raid playstyle? To see the endgame you have to raid. Almost every single lore line has a raid in the end (I know lore cant be shown and hasnt obvious bragging rights as a wolfcaller, but hey, some of us find it nice to arrive at the end of the game, even if we dont win the roll on the big chest). Every single Heritage Quest which yields an actual useful prize and some that dont, needs a raid. Heck, every single piece of equipment with any real value does need a raid!! And the fabled equipment you can ONLY get from raids is a lot better than any non-raidable gear, noticiable enough on your average (or not so average, nizara anyone) group setting.</p><p>I wont be the one to begin to argue again about the worthiness of the raiding playstyle over the rest for them to have the best loot or to challenge again the raider myth: "<i>They raid together, they have learned how to work well with one another as well as spilled enough blood together.</i>.." Of course groupers are not able to work together or cant learn to function together and their blood spilled are not the same color as the one of the heroic... no, not heroic... Epic!! raider. Nevermind. I said I didnt want to argue the point and I wont go further.</p><p>I will argue once more that casual doesnt mean non raider. We all know very casual raiders and very hardcore non raiders, even soloers. But even thats not the point.</p><p>Raiding HAS rewards in the game right now. The times of EQ1 are passed, like it or not, when a very high percentage of the population paid for a game that was designed to be enjoyed by a very low share. People did that because there wasnt any choice.</p><p>For a lot of people, people that come also from EQ1 and raiding guilds, some of us since Kunark, some even earlier, raiding is a boring playstyle. If anyone wants to farm for days and days the same zone over and over just to get their dkps and fabled armor of uberness, its their game and their choice. Ok by me. If the fabled armor of uberness doesnt shine from afar enough to satisfy the ego of the mythical raiders, we can try for a new title to show their dedication... something on the lines of "Ragnok, Destroyer of Fairies and Raider Extraordinaire". We could give different titles according to kills and deaths on raiding zones...</p><p>But I dont think devs will make the same mistakes of EQ1 again. They will probably like to remain in control of their own game and not lose it to the raiding cartels again.</p><p>Poetelia Roseknight</p><p>Paladin of Qeynos </p>

TheBu
02-15-2007, 04:38 PM
<p>I think soe has changed the avaliablty of the fabled items:</p><p>Take a look at the 70ish fabled gear on the broker. There is not much there. Most of the loot now seems to be lore and no trade. Also the new loot in the eof has a bump in its stats.</p><p>As far as raid thing goes there allways someone going to say they want the best gear. cuz what they do takes 24 toons but takes a few hours or other saying they takes them days on an quest line but do not need 24 toons.</p>

Jai1
02-15-2007, 05:34 PM
I Time reflagged new members for years in EQ.  I really wouldn't want to see that in EQ2.  I still have nightmares about Sarryn.

Ashlian
02-15-2007, 05:41 PM
<p>What you're talking about is risk versus reward, and it's a concept that game developers grapple with eternally. How much risk do your gamers want to take for that reward? And how uber does the reward need to be for them to take that risk? In EQ2, like it or not, the majority of us do not want our risk to be endless hours of our time on mind numbing raids in order for us to achieve our rewards. And yes, I was flagged on two toons up to Plane of Fire on PICKUP RAIDS.....let me repeat that....PICKUP RAIDS....in EQ1. It was jolly and fun. </p><p>But there are indeed other people who feel the same way about risk versus reward as you do. Amazingly enough, they felt that SOE sold out on EQ1 by making the risk versus the reward....too easy eventually. They thought that the challenge was removed. The fun was gone. The Vision (tm) was ruined. They went on to help make Vanguard. Which is supposedly through the rosy glasses of many fanbois, exactly the kind of challenging game you want. I don't know. The grass is always greener in those OTHER MMO's, the ones making all the promises! </p><p>As it stands, though, EQ2 is working in this case pretty much as intended....a game for less intense raiders, who want to experience raiding, but not on the scale of EQ2, ever again. I, too, would cancel my subscription if they ever showed any signs of changing the raiding model, and I raid three or four nights a week. It's a pity you don't enjoy the raiding in EQ2, but you really might seriously consider looking at other games. It's possible you could find one that will fit your playstyle a lot better. EQ is hardly the only choice out there anymore, and neither is WoW.</p>

Kizee
02-15-2007, 05:42 PM
<p>I agree that the raid drops should be alot better than joe schmo group instance drops. </p><p>If you are a raider then you should have a nice size bump in being more powerful than somone who doesnt raid. That is one of the biggest things that ticked me off when EoF came out.... I was seeing treasured/legendary stuff dropping that was better than alot of my fabled pieces. Unacceptable.</p><p>Another thing I would like to see is raid drops that have procs that work on epics. If a person raids then what the heck does he care if it has a proc that doesnt work on epic mobs.</p>

FightGame
02-15-2007, 05:47 PM
I agree, and disagree. lol.  I agree that sometimes a fabled piece of gear will drop in a x4 raid instance, and it was very hard to obtain, and should be better than any legendary.  But when you compare stats (resists mostly) to that of, even some treasured gear, you're left wondering why you even bothered forming 24 people together to do it.  Most times, though, the gear is better.   Not alot better, but better.  I disagree, because if the fabled gear were any better than what it is already (for the most part), then it will trivialize all the herioc (group) content.  It shouldn't be so good, as to, once you get fabled out, you can solo group content. 

sayitaintso
02-15-2007, 05:55 PM
Well since the vast majority of the remaining players in EQ2 are non raiding, it make sense that SOE should add non raiding content and gear..If you don't like it there is always Vanguard..(not a flame, a suggestion)

Grimlux
02-15-2007, 05:59 PM
<cite>Fingerbang wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="font-size: small">did you come from EQ1 or something? </span></p><p><span style="font-size: small">The gear you get from raiding is way better then causual group gear</span></p><p><span style="font-size: small">and raiding is far more fun then grouping and very hard and challenging to try to get to the end of the zone.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: small">the last thing EQ2 wants to do is make the raid gear way out of whack better then group gear like EQ1.  Thats one of the main reasons people are here and not EQ1 there is still a group game here.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: small">The min they make the raid gear way way better and put in flagging, I will cancel my account the next second.</span></p></blockquote><p> I completely agree with the OP.</p><p>As for this post, there' are THOUSANDS of raiders who would like to see a sense of achievement for work they put in. It's not that raiding is hard, its that you have to be competent enough to work with your mates' to get an objective complete. Timing. There are many aspects of this game that aim at the Solo player, the Casual grouper, the Hardcore grouper, and even less then of the Raider. </p><p>With the release of EoF im seeing gear come out of high level instances (Legendary) that make me sit and look at what Im currently wearing and think "Wow, this fabled item is really not as good as this Legendary piece that just dropped." I personally miss the accomplishments of having to bust [Removed for Content] to get access to an area. I came from EQ1 as well, and the PoP progression was exciting. I remember first killing Xegony and thinking, wow... It was an extremely sad day when SOE released the quest requirements for MOST zones. (EL,ZEK, Nek Castle, Etc) Now I have to roll a dice and hope I dont get some guy in my group that doesnt take the game quite as seriously as I do. </p><p>There's definately a group game here and your being choked by it. What the OP is stating is that for hard work your achievement should pay off. And I agree...</p>

Ashlian
02-15-2007, 06:16 PM
Are you telling me that you've cleared Freethinkers and Emerald Halls and gear out of instances is competing with that? If so, I'm sure there are a lot of non-raiders who would like to know where you're going! If you're talking about PREVIOUS EXPANSION raid gear being trumped by group instance gear from the next expansion, then yes, it is, in some cases. That's why my guild is working our patooties off to get fully geared up off the final KoS raid zones and SOME of the EoF instances to take on EoF raid zones. But no, we don't really mind that groups in the new expansion can get some gear that is as good as our OLD raid gear is. We fully expect that in EoF raid zones, we will get better again.

pandemonium73
02-15-2007, 06:27 PM
<cite>Grimlux wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Fingerbang wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="font-size: small">did you come from EQ1 or something? </span></p><p><span style="font-size: small">The gear you get from raiding is way better then causual group gear</span></p><p><span style="font-size: small">and raiding is far more fun then grouping and very hard and challenging to try to get to the end of the zone.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: small">the last thing EQ2 wants to do is make the raid gear way out of whack better then group gear like EQ1.  Thats one of the main reasons people are here and not EQ1 there is still a group game here.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: small">The min they make the raid gear way way better and put in flagging, I will cancel my account the next second.</span></p></blockquote><p> I completely agree with the OP.</p><p><span style="color: #cccc00">As for this post, there' are THOUSANDS of raiders who would like to see a sense of achievement for work they put in.</span> It's not that raiding is hard, its that you have to be competent enough to work with your mates' to get an objective complete. Timing. There are many aspects of this game that aim at the Solo player, the Casual grouper, the Hardcore grouper, and even less then of the Raider. </p><p>With the release of EoF im seeing gear come out of high level instances (Legendary) that make me sit and look at what Im currently wearing and think "Wow, this fabled item is really not as good as this Legendary piece that just dropped." I personally miss the accomplishments of having to bust [Removed for Content] to get access to an area. I came from EQ1 as well, and the PoP progression was exciting. I remember first killing Xegony and thinking, wow... It was an extremely sad day when SOE released the quest requirements for MOST zones. (EL,ZEK, Nek Castle, Etc) Now I have to roll a dice and hope I dont get some guy in my group that doesnt take the game quite as seriously as I do. </p><p>There's definately a group game here and your being choked by it. What the OP is stating is that for hard work your achievement should pay off. And I agree...</p></blockquote><span style="color: #ccff00">And there are<span style="color: #cc3300"> TENS OF THOUSANDS</span> of non raiders who don't want to be marginalized in a game where they are the majority. In most cases, Fabled gear IS better, just not so much better as to annoy the majority of EQ2's player base, which are not raiders. Right now, MOST soloers and groupers are happy to let the raiders have their Fabled (yes there will be some whingers no matter what). If they make raid gear as uber as the raiders want, SOE will create a great deal of dissatisfaction among the rest (and majority) of its player base.  Currently, there are GROUP zones in EOF where the raiders already have a great advantage because of their fabled gear, and you want to make that advantage even bigger? Hardly likely. It's a numbers game, and in this game the non-raiders WIN <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span>

Killerbee3000
02-15-2007, 08:55 PM
raiding? in eq2? lol..... good that someone started talking about it.... my trouby alt has 3 fabled t7 bp's... but on all my toons combined i have exactly one fabled ring... (read: too much armor not enough jewelery drops (i.e. unbalanced loot tables)) my conjurer has the best robe and earring in the game.... where they come from? the robe drops in nest and the earring is from a collection quest.... (read: screwed progression) soe loves putting ft1 on items (with eof they changed ft1 to other crap) in return for a extreme cutdown in either stats, +hp / power or resists.... (again.... if a item has 1k less resists and ft1 in return its a bad itemization). soe consistently changes the difficulty of mobs (tarinax is a prime example). massive hits with the nerf bat to adorns..... constant changes to items.... (all resists on kos loot got butchered....) no... i dont raid anymore. and no.... that sohuldnt be a surpirse to anyone lol.

Lasai
02-16-2007, 02:42 AM
I never quite understand these posts, or complaints. It isn't an either/or proposition for Raiders. A raider can do any and all content in game.. AND raid. If "Joe Schmoe" casual can get a better peice of equipment from a "casual" encounter in EOF, so can you. Then, unlike "Joe Schmoe" casual, you can put it on and go with your raid guild to EH or whatever and get even better, if not for you, then for your guildmates. In the meantime, "Joe Schmoe" has probably picked up the best and last bit of nice equipment he will ever see, and may never see again. Tell me again how you get so shafted.. I just can't see it. I can see the point of Raiders getting Raid gear, I cannot see the mentality that insists that ALL non-raid gear must be inferior to what the "serious" players think they deserve. Methinks thou dost protest too much.

Pins
02-16-2007, 09:50 AM
<cite>Lasai wrote:</cite><blockquote>I never quite understand these posts, or complaints. It isn't an either/or proposition for Raiders. A raider can do any and all content in game.. AND raid. If "Joe Schmoe" casual can get a better peice of equipment from a "casual" encounter in EOF, so can you. Then, unlike "Joe Schmoe" casual, you can put it on and go with your raid guild to EH or whatever and get even better, if not for you, then for your guildmates. In the meantime, "Joe Schmoe" has probably picked up the best and last bit of nice equipment he will ever see, and may never see again. Tell me again how you get so shafted.. I just can't see it. I can see the point of Raiders getting Raid gear, I cannot see the mentality that insists that ALL non-raid gear must be inferior to what the "serious" players think they deserve. </blockquote> Except, the developers of the game stated they were going to add progression to the game.  And as of right now, that so-called progression doesn't exist.

Noaani
02-16-2007, 10:07 AM
<cite>pandemonium73 wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="color: #ccff00">And there are<span style="color: #cc3300"> TENS OF THOUSANDS</span> of non raiders who don't want to be marginalized in a game where they are the majority. In most cases, Fabled gear IS better, just not so much better as to annoy the majority of EQ2's player base, which are not raiders. Right now, MOST soloers and groupers are happy to let the raiders have their Fabled (yes there will be some whingers no matter what). If they make raid gear as uber as the raiders want, SOE will create a great deal of dissatisfaction among the rest (and majority) of its player base.  Currently, there are GROUP zones in EOF where the raiders already have a great advantage because of their fabled gear, and you want to make that advantage even bigger? Hardly likely. It's a numbers game, and in this game the non-raiders WIN <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span> </blockquote><p>I am able to solo Nest of the Great Egg on my wizard, and I am able to 2 box OoB with my wizard and Inquisitor. I am able to do this, not because of fabled gear I may or may not have (I did this in mastercrafted as I was figuring it out to save money on repairs). The reason I, as well as many other raiders, are able to solo/duo heroic content is because of 2 reasons.</p><p>First, we are better at this game than you!</p><p>Second, we put the time and effort in to figuring out how to get around a new challange. It took me a very long time to figure out how to kill the end mob in Nest, and I died maybe 100 times to him before i managed it. Now I am able to kill him first pull every time. How many casual players are willing to die to a mob 100 times before they figure out that they CAN solo it?</p><p>People that dont raid in this game fall in to one of three groups, those that dislike it, those that are not able to attend the game for 2 hour peroids, and those with self inferoir complexs. The people that complain about raiders almost always (almost...) fall in to the last group.</p>

Camibella
02-16-2007, 10:14 AM
<p>I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who feels the way I do. For those of you who think I was wining its not necessarily about "the gear" its about putting the incentive back in game to raid. </p><p>I didn't ask for them to nerf groups or casual players. I asked for them to make some form of a reason for people to LOOK FOR a raiding guild. </p><p>It sounds like a few of you who have passed judgement haven't ever belonged to a raiding guild. It's a fun style of game play. You form a bond / closeness with people in game that in unparalleled. You gather a group of 24 people with the same goal who are willing to work just as hard at accomplishing that goal as you are. </p><p>Raid mobs are tougher then group mobs, their reward should be greater. There should be no grey line (OR AN EXTREAMLY SMALL ONE) as to Ohhh Is this fabled raid drop that just fell an upgrade to the wrist I got in oob or not? Humm It's close. </p><p>Many of you seem too think I want the death of casual game content. That's not the intent of this post. I want there to be a reason for people to look to join raiding guilds Other then OHHH yea we get to pay repair cost nightly and face the hardest mobs in the game for a shot at loot that is only a situational upgrade. </p><p>I think 90% or greater of our Relic robes that have been rewarded went strait into bags as backup because the majority of the casters recognize the value of the robe that drops in the nest. </p><p>And what about masters? Nothings more grand then beating your gear against raid mobs for adept I spells and tradeskill books! </p><p>There is a value to raiding for me, I enjoy it (regardless of what loot drops). I always have and hopefully always will. I love listing to teamspeak erupt after you take a mob down for the first time that has previously been a roadblock. I enjoy that feeling. </p><p>If there had been no reason in EQ1 for me to seek out a raiding guild, I probably would have never learned the thrill of raiding. My play style would have never been challenged or pushed to be at the level it currently is. Sony gave me a reason in EQ1 to advance and improve and I just don't see that incentive being as strong here in eq2. Its ashame.</p><p>I will continue to raid and if gear and risk vs reward continues to be diminished in raid zones vs groupable instance, I guess at some point it will hit a wall with me and I'll be forced to make a decision. But this is my play style. I didn't demean anyone for there play style I just asked for sony to help foster growth in the raiding community. </p>

liveja
02-16-2007, 12:13 PM
<cite>Camibella wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>It sounds like a few of you who have passed judgement haven't ever belonged to a raiding guild. It's a fun style of game play. You form a bond / closeness with people in game that in unparalleled. You gather a group of 24 people with the same goal who are willing to work just as hard at accomplishing that goal as you are.</p></blockquote><p> IMHO, that's really all the incentive you need to join a raid guild. Everything else is immaterial.</p><p>Whether or not EQ2 is good at rewarding "progression" is a different issue, because "progression" means entirely different things to different people, who will accomplish their own version of "progression" in their own way. I think being a member of a team that has accomplished various goals in-game is far more important than are the rewards any given person receives for the effort. The items gained, IOW, are icing on the progression cake -- not the cake itself.</p>

Levatino
02-16-2007, 12:17 PM
<cite>Lasai wrote:</cite><blockquote>I never quite understand these posts, or complaints. It isn't an either/or proposition for Raiders. A raider can do any and all content in game.. AND raid. If "Joe Schmoe" casual can get a better peice of equipment from a "casual" encounter in EOF, so can you. Then, unlike "Joe Schmoe" casual, you can put it on and go with your raid guild to EH or whatever and get even better, if not for you, then for your guildmates. In the meantime, "Joe Schmoe" has probably picked up the best and last bit of nice equipment he will ever see, and may never see again. Tell me again how you get so shafted.. I just can't see it. I can see the point of Raiders getting Raid gear, I cannot see the mentality that insists that ALL non-raid gear must be inferior to what the "serious" players think they deserve. Methinks thou dost protest too much.</blockquote> hear hear!!! very good post

Poetelia
02-16-2007, 12:20 PM
<p>I still think we have been flogging this horse to death all over the months and the years. But still, people insist over and over and over again on the same mythical propositions... what I call "the raider monomyth". I find it too difficult to pass without, at least, express my disagreement once more.</p><p>Pinski wrote: "<i>Except, the developers of the game stated they were going to add progression to the game.  And as of right now, that so-called progression doesn't exist.</i>"</p><p>A typical raider statement. When a raider says "hardcore", she means raiding. And when a raider says "the game" she means the raiding playstyle. According to a raider the only progression possible in a MMORPG is the raid progression... if the raid progression doesnt exist, then the game is stagnant and there is no progression at all. Obviously thats a dialectical trap and an obvious falsehood.</p><p>In this regard, it is very respectable the attitude of the OP, on the lines that "I like raiding and I want raiding to be more fully supported". Period. You can agree or disagree, but at least is respectful and doesnt prejudge "per se" the lesser nature of the non raiding game. A game can have progression perfectly well designed without it involving raiding in any form, you know, it could be possible... non desirable from my point of view (I think every playstyle should be supported) and despicable from yours, but possible.</p><p>But the point is this game HAS a raiding progression pretty well defined. If you mean this game is not the raiding fest that EQ1 came to be, in which you had to raid to get the flag to be able to raid for the flagging that gave you the password to the raid that could give you access to the flagging raid... and, in the process, the people who didnt raid or belonged to one of the raid cartels (no longer guilds, mind you, but power structures with very stern admitance requisites that, very effectively, controlled the game), had to keep paying the fee and be content with the few dungeons and story lines developed for groupers, then yes, youre right, there is no RAID PROGRESSION like the one known in EQ1. Thats why many many people left EQ1 to come over here: to be able o begin anew in a MMORPG without having to be a raid slave and have fun again with their friends and groups. But the progression exists, for raiding and... gasp!!! yes, even for groupers. And also even for soloers. Progression exists alright, but it is not limited to one playstyle. Even so, most of the real worthwhile drops and all of the end storylines REQUIRES still raids.</p><p>Conclusion: EQ2 is not a raid ONLY progression game. True. But it is false it doesnt have a progression as a game and in every playstyle.</p><p> Noaani wrote: "<i>The reason I, as well as many other raiders, are able to solo/duo heroic content is because of 2 reasons. </i></p><p><i>First, we are better at this game than you!</i></p><p><i>Second, we put the time and effort in to figuring out how to get around a new challange. It took me a very long time to figure out how to kill the end mob in Nest, and I died maybe 100 times to him before i managed it. Now I am able to kill him first pull every time. How many casual players are willing to die to a mob 100 times before they figure out that they CAN solo it?</i></p><p><i>People that dont raid in this game fall in to one of three groups, those that dislike it, those that are not able to attend the game for 2 hour peroids, and those with self inferoir complexs. The people that complain about raiders almost always (almost...) fall in to the last group</i>."</p><p>More of the raider monomyth. And obviously false. As I said earlier Im playing EQ1 since Kunark and belonged to a raiding guild. All these years Ive been a respected player, both when I raided and when I decided to have fun again playing. I dont pretend to be the ultimate player, but Ive been on most places and done a lot of things. And met a lot of people, both in and out raid guilds. There are excellent players that are hardcore raiders. There are horrible players that are hardcore raiders. And there are excellent players that avoid raids like the plague. Non raider healers that can keep you alive against adds and adds with no cc while ghetto mezzing some, chanters that can mezz a whole colony of adds in a couple seconds while you ask yourself how the heck they are doing it and tanks that grab aggro from adds as if she actually were shouting curses on a virtual teamspeak and the mobs were listening. Some of them are raiders, some arent. And some raiding healers never went beyond the line: "Complete Heal on Poetelia in 10 secs. Healer 02 next...".</p><p>You know and I know. Ive met a soloer in Living Tombs, a 55 conjuror who had been soloing all the game, bent on doing the timed part of the peacock quest when you have to pull 5 named skellies from different parts of the court, while see invis and non see invis mobs patrolled all the place. He told me he had died already 30 or 40 times and he knew all the pathing of the roamers and had it timed, so he did know where it intersected with other adds. Also he had to clear the see invis adds and hope they were replaced by non see invis adds to be able to do everything in time, while pulling from afar the said mobs. I never found out if he did it in the end. I would say no, at least not at that 55 level, with everything aggro. But if he did, in my book he would have deserved any fabled he could have won raiding.</p><p>How many times I have been in a pu group for a hard ldon back in EQ1 and one of the guys sported that nice latin tag we all knew in Zeb server belonged to that high end raiding guild... and later the run ended disastrously just because the uber healer was nuking and not healing, wasnt able to mezz a couple of adds or didnt find fun to assist the MT (yes, as if she was a noob, exactly), and left the group at the middle of the run because "you guys suck!". Of course, that wasnt always the case, but this has happened to me several times, so not every raider is an uber, not even a good, not even an average player. In raiding guilds, as in groups, as in solo persons, you can find all kind of players. Because, Noaani, believe or not, there are hardcore players on all playstyles. So quit looking at your own umbilicus pretending that outside your mythical raiding world only the Chaos reigns.</p><p>How many casual players are willing to die to a mob 100 times to see if its possible to kill it solo? you ask. Answer: none. But once more, you try to use the dialectical falsehood that equates casual with non raider. As I said before there are raiders that are very casual and non raiders that are very hardcore. It comes to mind a post made by a raider some months ago... she said she was in a raiding guild, raided 4 or 5 days a week, around 4 hours every time. She said the penalty for dying on raids had to be lessened, because she had a life outside the game... she couldnt be all that time raiding AND spend later more time in the game farming money to pay for the repairs at the same time. HEY, SHE HAD A LIFE!! <img src="/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. How casual it sounds!!</p><p>So, a real hardcore player would try 100 times to kill a mob... only a hardcore doesnt mean the player has to be a raider. Quit equating that 2 words.</p><p>And lastly, the people that complain about raiders are usually people that find the raiding game boring and feel that every interesting lore line or gear comes that way. The same that the people that complains about non raiders (casuals, they call them using the raider monomyth) are raiders that feel that the game design is tilting towards another playstyle. it has nothing to do with inferiority complex. Actually I could make an argument about inferiority complexes turning around your own statement, against raiders this time and their need to be seen as superior and be praised as uber. It would have the same value as yours tho. It would be vain and unsupported. And false.</p><p>Lastly Sarynety wrote: "<i>I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who feels the way I do. For those of you who think I was wining its not necessarily about "the gear" its about putting the incentive back in game to raid</i>".  With all due respect Sarynety, if its not about the gear, what incentive are we talking about here? And this is not a cynic question, I just missed the other incentives you are talking about here on your other post.</p><p>"<i>It sounds like a few of you who have passed judgement haven't ever belonged to a raiding guild. It's a fun style of game play. You form a bond / closeness with people in game that in unparalleled. You gather a group of 24 people with the same goal who are willing to work just as hard at accomplishing that goal as you are</i>". I have belonged to a raiding guild. And I can tell you Ive formed more bonds of closeness with people on non raiding guilds that in a raiding guild. Im not saying it cant happen, Im saying that was not my experience and also that people that dont raid are not stupid automatons that play a game to giggle... those people have also goals and work hard to get them, only they dont raid. My experience in raiding guilds is that most people are there to get the uber gear, their dkps, and outside that, there is very little sharing or helping with other stuff in the game. Im sure its not always that way, but dont try to sell raiding guilds as the paramount of all camaraderie and the non raiding guilds as a happy go lucky bunch who logs into the game to access an especialized chat room.</p><p>"<i>Raid mobs are tougher then group mobs, their reward should be greater. There should be no grey line (OR AN EXTREAMLY SMALL ONE) as to Ohhh Is this fabled raid drop that just fell an upgrade to the wrist I got in oob or not? Humm It's close</i>". Hmm I thought we werent talking about gear...</p><p>"<i>Many of you seem too think I want the death of casual game content. That's not the intent of this post. I want there to be a reason for people to look to join raiding guilds Other then OHHH yea we get to pay repair cost nightly and face the hardest mobs in the game for a shot at loot that is only a situational upgrade</i>". You mean you dont want the death of the NON RAIDING game. As I said non-raiding is NOT the same as casual. The reason for people to join raiding guilds should be they like raiding. Period.</p><p>"<i>There is a value to raiding for me, I enjoy it (regardless of what loot drops). I always have and hopefully always will. I love listing to teamspeak erupt after you take a mob down for the first time that has previously been a roadblock. I enjoy that feeling</i>". Good for you! Im glad youre enjoying your playstyle almost as much I do mine.</p><p>"<i>If there had been no reason in EQ1 for me to seek out a raiding guild, I probably would have never learned the thrill of raiding. My play style would have never been challenged or pushed to be at the level it currently is. Sony gave me a reason in EQ1 to advance and improve and I just don't see that incentive being as strong here in eq2. Its ashame</i>". Youve been lucky... you found the camaraderie you were looking for in a raiding guild and you found a playstyle you loved. Thats great ! That should be your incentive. If not... well, I did leave EQ1 for that reason and came here. I recognized that game wasnt for me. With all due respect, maybe you should do the same and go back.</p><p>"<i>I will continue to raid and if gear and risk vs reward continues to be diminished in raid zones vs groupable instance, I guess at some point it will hit a wall with me and I'll be forced to make a decision. But this is my play style. I didn't demean anyone for there play style I just asked for sony to help foster growth in the raiding community</i>". And I hope Sony listens to you and gives you more raidable content. But you shouldnt judge your content in terms of the value of the drops regarding other playstyles.</p><p>Poetelia Roseknight</p><p>Paladin of Qeynos</p>

Noaani
02-16-2007, 01:18 PM
<cite>Poetelia wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The same that the people that complains about non raiders (casuals, they call them using the raider monomyth) are raiders that feel that the game design is tilting towards another playstyle. it has nothing to do with inferiority complex. Actually I could make an argument about inferiority complexes turning around your own statement, against raiders this time and their need to be seen as superior and be praised as uber. It would have the same value as yours tho. It would be vain and unsupported. And false.</p></blockquote><p>This is the part I am going to play with for now...</p><p>The statement I made above about non raiders fitting in to three groups still stands. To try and turn round the inferiority complex mentioned back to raids is rather foolish. This is not a statement about the amount of content, or the attention from the developers. The statement, had you read and understoodf it, was that there is a large portion of the community that do not bother trying to raid because they think its for "those people over there".</p><p>How can you turn that around on to a group of people that said "Hey, I am good enough to do that as well, I'm going to give it a go!"</p><p>That is the total opposite of feeling inferoir. Current raiders (the ones that were not raiding since T5) got over the stigma involved with raiding, and decided that they WERE good enough to raid as well. Those people that are on at peak times, and want to have all that gear, but never tried raiding, those are the ones that think they are imferoir to those that have tried raiding.</p><p>I am aware that raiding is not for everyone, as i pointed out above. Those that have tried it and decided they can play the game and enjoy it without raiding, good for you! Those that do not have the time to raid, I say look more closely at how long it actually takes to raid, talk to some raid guilds, then decide if you have time. Those that want to try raiding, the ones that are always on during prime time, the ones that are often on the server channels hassling raiders, these are the ones that have an inferoirity complex. They want to be one of the cool kids with the flash toys, but they are holding themselves back because they think they are not good enough (or because they made too much of an [Removed for Content] of themselves on the public channels and now no raid guild will take them).</p><p>Again, this is not raiders. Raiders have seen what they want, they have found out how to get it, and they have done what was needed. This is the opposite of feeling inferior.</p>

Poetelia
02-16-2007, 01:56 PM
<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Poetelia wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The same that the people that complains about non raiders (casuals, they call them using the raider monomyth) are raiders that feel that the game design is tilting towards another playstyle. it has nothing to do with inferiority complex. Actually I could make an argument about inferiority complexes turning around your own statement, against raiders this time and their need to be seen as superior and be praised as uber. It would have the same value as yours tho. It would be vain and unsupported. And false.</p></blockquote><p>This is the part I am going to play with for now...</p><p>The statement I made above about non raiders fitting in to three groups still stands. To try and turn round the inferiority complex mentioned back to raids is rather foolish. This is not a statement about the amount of content, or the attention from the developers. The statement, had you read and understoodf it, was that there is a large portion of the community that do not bother trying to raid because they think its for "those people over there".</p><p>How can you turn that around on to a group of people that said "Hey, I am good enough to do that as well, I'm going to give it a go!"</p><p>That is the total opposite of feeling inferoir. Current raiders (the ones that were not raiding since T5) got over the stigma involved with raiding, and decided that they WERE good enough to raid as well. Those people that are on at peak times, and want to have all that gear, but never tried raiding, those are the ones that think they are imferoir to those that have tried raiding.</p><p>I am aware that raiding is not for everyone, as i pointed out above. Those that have tried it and decided they can play the game and enjoy it without raiding, good for you! Those that do not have the time to raid, I say look more closely at how long it actually takes to raid, talk to some raid guilds, then decide if you have time. Those that want to try raiding, the ones that are always on during prime time, the ones that are often on the server channels hassling raiders, these are the ones that have an inferoirity complex. They want to be one of the cool kids with the flash toys, but they are holding themselves back because they think they are not good enough (or because they made too much of an [Removed for Content] of themselves on the public channels and now no raid guild will take them).</p><p>Again, this is not raiders. Raiders have seen what they want, they have found out how to get it, and they have done what was needed. This is the opposite of feeling inferior.</p></blockquote><p>There is no way someone can feel inferior for not raiding. Or lets say its theoretically possible, but certainly very rare. Because to raid you dont need to be "good enough". The only thing you need is like the raiding playstyle enough to do it. Period. You dont need to be Superman, or have the training of a SEAL or the mind of Stephen Hawkings.</p><p>But apparently, according to the raider monomyth, a raider is an echelon above the rest... to be one, you have to be good enough... if you suddenly find out you are not that good you are soooo bitter you can only come here at the boards or there at the channels to vent all your dissapointment in your own uselessness... Is that it? One can only wonder how can someone possibly reach the conclussion that a raider is a special person and not everybody can be one... Okies, I wont even have to answer that. It disqualifies on itself.</p><p>"Doing what was needed" is not a tremendous feat in this case. The fact that you are using the same resounding phrase applicable to the 101st Airborne guys on 2WW just to put an example, doesnt makes raiding a superhuman feat. Its just a playstyle. Everyone and their little puppies are good enough to play any style on a comercial MMORPG designed for thousands of people. Feeling elite for that reveals some kind of dream palace mind fabrication that could well be described as an incapability of keeping in total touch with reality. The need to build that obvious dream thought may well be derived of some kind of complex... or just lack of rational thought.</p><p>And by the way.... Im glad you stated in your former post that you are sooo good a raider that you can even reach a superior step on this game and solo Nest. Im sure soloers will welcome this recognition in a raider.<img src="/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Poetelia Roseknight</p><p>Paladin of Qeynos</p>

Ganlu
02-16-2007, 02:09 PM
Poetelia's post was rather long, but I agree with the overall sentiment.  I don't raid, partly because I don't really like it, and partly because I play in smaller blocks of time or with semi-frequent AFKs.  I still enjoy any challenge I can find in the game, and consider myself a "good player", or as good as one can be in the confines of this game.  I too can solo the Nest and have soloed some things other people told me would be impossible at the time. I am actually willing to die over and over to do something solo that I could have done easily in a group.  I enjoy stretching my character's limits and attacking a challenge that isn't normally meant for one person.  The only fabled gear I have I bought off the broker from raiding guilds, and I believe that soloists can actually benefit from the raiding guilds because of that "trickle down" effect.  I spend my time earning cash here and there, and can buy myself gear that brings me closer to "raiding equipment" level, without having to put in the blocks of time to raid. My main point is, challenge can be found anywhere in the game, whether you're solo, grouped or a raid.  The rewards shouldn't always be the same, but just because raiding may not be challenging or progressive enough, other parts of the game certainly are!

Noaani
02-16-2007, 03:25 PM
<cite>Poetelia wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>There is no way someone can feel inferior for not raiding. Or lets say its theoretically possible, but certainly very rare. Because to raid you dont need to be "good enough". The only thing you need is like the raiding playstyle enough to do it. Period. You dont need to be Superman, or have the training of a SEAL or the mind of Stephen Hawkings.</p><p>But apparently, according to the raider monomyth, a raider is an echelon above the rest... to be one, you have to be good enough... if you suddenly find out you are not that good you are soooo bitter you can only come here at the boards or there at the channels to vent all your dissapointment in your own uselessness... Is that it? One can only wonder how can someone possibly reach the conclussion that a raider is a special person and not everybody can be one... Okies, I wont even have to answer that. It disqualifies on itself.</p><p>"Doing what was needed" is not a tremendous feat in this case. The fact that you are using the same resounding phrase applicable to the 101st Airborne guys on 2WW just to put an example, doesnt makes raiding a superhuman feat. Its just a playstyle. Everyone and their little puppies are good enough to play any style on a comercial MMORPG designed for thousands of people. Feeling elite for that reveals some kind of dream palace mind fabrication that could well be described as an incapability of keeping in total touch with reality. The need to build that obvious dream thought may well be derived of some kind of complex... or just lack of rational thought.</p><p>And by the way.... Im glad you stated in your former post that you are sooo good a raider that you can even reach a superior step on this game and solo Nest. Im sure soloers will welcome this recognition in a raider.<img src="/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote><p>Pfft, soloing nest at 70 is easy (except for the last mob, as I have already said). Soloing Bastion of Flames at 50 was hard, soloing poets palace at 60 was hard. Soloing the NB in EL at 50 was boring, back in the day when wizards could solo epics.</p><p>If you had have actually read the posts i have posted in this thread, you would have understood that raiding is not hard, doing what it takes to get in to raiding is not hard either. I am aware of this. Raiding, especially entry level raid, is among the easiest things to do in this game. However, there are people out there (I used to be guilded with a few of these people) that think raiding is only for those that raid... those that raid are easy to spot because they are covered in fabled loot, and talk [Removed for Content] on the server channels.</p><p>As for doing what was needed not being a tremendous feat, well, that depends on the situation. In my case, what was needed was taking a guild full of casual players aside and convincing them that they WERE able to raid (this was about the time of GU#<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. Trying to convince them that it was possible to have more than 2 raiding guild on a given server, and trying to convince them that we could complete a raid in less than 90 minutes. Once I had convinced them that we should at least try it, I then had to figure out how to actually raid... this story could go on for a very long time, but its enough to say that "what is needed" is not always just joining a guild that is already raiding. I'll end this paragraph by saying that by GU#13, we were raiding every T5 instance successfully.</p><p>You are right though, in order to be a raider (as you may have noticed if you can read what is typed above, this is comming from someone that has been raiding longer than most have been playing this game) all you need to do is want to raid. The fact that it takes so little to actually be able to raid does not mean people KNOW that is all it takes. Yes, there are people out there that think raiding is for people that are better than they are. I'll let them think that if they want, but if they bothered looking in to it they would realise its not like that.</p><p>I have not said it IS like that either. If you actually look at what I have been typing, I have said people THINK that. I am more aware than you as to what it takes to raid in EQ2 (you can go on and on about raiding in EQ1 all you want, I dont care, this is not EQ1). I am aware that for a lot of classes I could train a monky to raid. I am aware that for 2 or 3 spots on my raid I could have people afk for 99% of the raid and I would not notice. But the fact that I know this does not mean everyone knows this.</p><p>Do I think I am better because I raid? Not at all. I think I am better, therefore I raid. </p>

Ba
02-16-2007, 03:57 PM
<p>Seems to me the OP is seeing stuff in EoF heroic instances and comparing it to DoF/KoS raid fabled gear. Thats not comparing like-with-like. Try comparing the EoF heroic gear with the EoF raid gear.</p><p>Stuff in newer expansions is always a tad better than the content before it. It's deliberate. It both encourages people (raiders and non-raiders) to buy and experience the newer content, and, it compensates somewhat for people who are already geared to the older raid-level quality (would be pretty boring to form a group with your KoS/DoF raid geared friends and then find EVERY drop in the EoF heroic content was worse than what you had -- would remove a lot of the incentive to play).</p><p>Also it allows them to ramp up the difficulty a bit to challenge the raiders without shutting out the non-raiders too much.</p><p>I don't see an issue here. Its very normal MMORPG progression in action. After you have played a lot of MMORPG's for many years you'll see this pattern repeated frequently.</p>

Poetelia
02-16-2007, 04:00 PM
<p>WOW, I followed your repeated advice (Im so dumb, I need more than a couple or three reminders) and I "actually looked at what you have been typing". Now I feel enlightened. Youre just uber. Nuff said.</p><p><img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Poetelia Roseknight</p><p>Paladin of Qeynos</p>

Llach
02-16-2007, 04:11 PM
<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>pandemonium73 wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="color: #ccff00">And there are<span style="color: #cc3300"> TENS OF THOUSANDS</span> of non raiders who don't want to be marginalized in a game where they are the majority. In most cases, Fabled gear IS better, just not so much better as to annoy the majority of EQ2's player base, which are not raiders. Right now, MOST soloers and groupers are happy to let the raiders have their Fabled (yes there will be some whingers no matter what). If they make raid gear as uber as the raiders want, SOE will create a great deal of dissatisfaction among the rest (and majority) of its player base.  Currently, there are GROUP zones in EOF where the raiders already have a great advantage because of their fabled gear, and you want to make that advantage even bigger? Hardly likely. It's a numbers game, and in this game the non-raiders WIN <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span> </blockquote><p>I am able to solo Nest of the Great Egg on my wizard, and I am able to 2 box OoB with my wizard and Inquisitor. I am able to do this, not because of fabled gear I may or may not have (I did this in mastercrafted as I was figuring it out to save money on repairs). The reason I, as well as many other raiders, are able to solo/duo heroic content is because of 2 reasons.</p><p>First, we are better at this game than you!</p><p>Second, we put the time and effort in to figuring out how to get around a new challange. It took me a very long time to figure out how to kill the end mob in Nest, and I died maybe 100 times to him before i managed it. Now I am able to kill him first pull every time. How many casual players are willing to die to a mob 100 times before they figure out that they CAN solo it?</p><p>People that dont raid in this game fall in to one of three groups, those that dislike it, those that are not able to attend the game for 2 hour peroids, and those with self inferoir complexs. The people that complain about raiders almost always (almost...) fall in to the last group.</p></blockquote>I think you fall into that category reserved for the crap you scrap off your shoe after a walk in the park. Better at the game? more mouthy and arrogant more like.

Ravaan
02-16-2007, 04:19 PM
what are you talking about most of the endgame is "Raid or Quit". there is NOTHING else to do in this game besides "getting da UBAH gear".

pandemonium73
02-16-2007, 04:46 PM
<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>pandemonium73 wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="color: #ccff00">And there are<span style="color: #cc3300"> TENS OF THOUSANDS</span> of non raiders who don't want to be marginalized in a game where they are the majority. In most cases, Fabled gear IS better, just not so much better as to annoy the majority of EQ2's player base, which are not raiders. Right now, MOST soloers and groupers are happy to let the raiders have their Fabled (yes there will be some whingers no matter what). If they make raid gear as uber as the raiders want, SOE will create a great deal of dissatisfaction among the rest (and majority) of its player base.  Currently, there are GROUP zones in EOF where the raiders already have a great advantage because of their fabled gear, and you want to make that advantage even bigger? Hardly likely. It's a numbers game, and in this game the non-raiders WIN <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span> </blockquote><p>I am able to solo Nest of the Great Egg on my wizard, and I am able to 2 box OoB with my wizard and Inquisitor. I am able to do this, not because of fabled gear I may or may not have (I did this in mastercrafted as I was figuring it out to save money on repairs). The reason I, as well as many other raiders, are able to solo/duo heroic content is because of 2 reasons.</p><p>First, we are better at this game than you!</p><p>Second, we put the time and effort in to figuring out how to get around a new challange. It took me a very long time to figure out how to kill the end mob in Nest, and I died maybe 100 times to him before i managed it. Now I am able to kill him first pull every time. How many casual players are willing to die to a mob 100 times before they figure out that they CAN solo it?</p><p>People that dont raid in this game fall in to one of three groups, those that dislike it, those that are not able to attend the game for 2 hour peroids, and those with self inferoir complexs. The people that complain about raiders almost always (almost...) fall in to the last group.</p></blockquote>First, don't assume you are better than me at anything fool <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />   You have never seen me play.  It's that kind of statement though that makes folks think all raiders are testosterone pumped idiots, so WTG.  I know plenty of awesome raiders who would shake their heads at a statement like that, because they are smart enough to know all it does is drive a bigger wedge between the player base, making soloers and groupers even more likely to want to marginalize raiding if they can convince SOE to do it. I have raided before and will do it again, but I don't live in fantasy land like yourself, so I was explaining to y'all the facts-- if SOE tries to please the raiders in the exact fashion the op is asking for, they will anger the majority of their player base.  Therefore, it's not gonna happen.  Period.   If you look at posts I've written in the past, I have DEFENDED the raiders' right to the Fabled gear they get against some of the whingers who claim Fabled should be easier for them to get.  But asking to make Fabled gear better than it is already is [Removed for Content] in the wind my friend, however you go ahead if you want to.

Hammer4
02-16-2007, 04:47 PM
<cite>Pinski wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lasai wrote:</cite><blockquote>I never quite understand these posts, or complaints. It isn't an either/or proposition for Raiders. A raider can do any and all content in game.. AND raid. If "Joe Schmoe" casual can get a better peice of equipment from a "casual" encounter in EOF, so can you. Then, unlike "Joe Schmoe" casual, you can put it on and go with your raid guild to EH or whatever and get even better, if not for you, then for your guildmates. In the meantime, "Joe Schmoe" has probably picked up the best and last bit of nice equipment he will ever see, and may never see again. Tell me again how you get so shafted.. I just can't see it. I can see the point of Raiders getting Raid gear, I cannot see the mentality that insists that ALL non-raid gear must be inferior to what the "serious" players think they deserve. </blockquote> Except, the developers of the game stated they were going to add progression to the game.  And as of right now, that so-called progression doesn't exist. </blockquote> The progression exists, you're just at the end of the progression.  Once you've done all the raids, fabled everything, mastered everything, maxed out your level, your AA's, and your ego, there's clearly nothing left for you to do but shave off your neckbeard and go out into the world and try to act like a normal person for a while.  I know the real world is disappointing because you can't get a Fabled job or a Legendary car, but don't worry, in a few months another expansion will come out and you can spend another two weeks doing every possible thing that dozens of programmers took months to develop and get into running condition.

Oakum
02-16-2007, 04:59 PM
<p>Ok, OP, you can read this as a flame if you want but I actually think that, within their stated goals, the developers have done raid dropped items decently (although there is some obvious slanting towards satisfying raiders at the expense of others) and actually encouraged a lot more </p><p>By makeing HQ's and Signature Quest's have some raid components they have actually got  more people to try raiding then would have otherwise bothered. MOA is a good example of this. Some of my former "dedicated" casual players who would never have even attempted to raid started with a successful largely pickup MOA 4 raid and then abandoned the guild later on when its alliance was not moving fast enough through KOS raid progression for their new "I want raid gear" mentality. The Claymore, prismatic 1, and  prismatic two line are more examples of ways EQ2 entices more players to try raidings. </p><p> Your biggest concern seems to be the EoF group drops being almost as good as the low lvl KoS raid drops. That (which I do not agree with 100 percent) maybe but that is a result of equipment/zone progression for group instances and equipment from KoS versions. </p><p>Why is that? Because there was a lot of, well, I guess complaints mostly from raiders after KoS and DoF because they had to actually do non raid content to level up and start raiding a tier at the bottom. I remember all the one more lvl cap raise cause I wont be so uber compared to non raiders any more post well. </p><p>Now, past emotional raider post aside, the results of no lvl cap but new content is the content must be harder and drop better stuff then the old in both solo, group, and raid content. Other wise there is no progression. </p><p>As far as risk/work vs reward "stuff". On a raid the raid leader, MT, and healers are the ones who have to do significantly more then when in groups and even then, since most raids have backups, you can lose one of those people and still succeed where as a group would usually fail. So therefore, the risk can mostly only be equated to the time invested. </p><p>Something from a 3 to 4 hour raid from a named should be better then something from a 2 to 3 hour instances and I can say that it is. Good job dev's. </p><p>Getting a 3 set proc with a piece of legendary  which might make it seem better in some respects then a piece of raid gear? Lets's do the math. (3-4) hours for raid item.  (2 to 3) hours X 3 = (6 to 9) hours. 3 to 4 is less then 6 to 9 so I can see that, with proc, that piece might be considered better and DESERVED. Yes some instances take less the 2-3 hours for groups but lot of raids can be done under 3 hours (if a lot of afk's are not taken). The same thing about time differences for learning a raid or group zone also apply. </p><p>I did some guild raids in EQ1 and had some fun. I do some raiding in EQ2 but due to 2 kids now that need attention, have less time because they are and should be the priority, not raiding. </p><p>I do need an occasional AFK for 10-15 minutes an hour to take care of things for them. If everyone in a raid had to afk for 10 to 15 minutes at a random time during a raid then eventually it will get to the point where other people will have to wait for them and drag the raid out beyond their ability to hang around and finish. I do not enjoy having people waiting on me or waiting on other people. </p><p>If I put in the same amount of hours (with the often afk breaks spread out in them) as a hardcore no life and I don't care about my family raider doing a solo or group quest line, I expect to get rewards that are associated with the efforts I put in it. The harder the content, the better no matter wether its solo, group, or raid. Granted, if I do a hard solo lvl 60 quest I would not expect it to be quite as good as a drop from a lvl 60 named mob which I would not expect to be as good as a drop from A level 60 named raid mob. The group and/or raid drops should not be so good that the solo item is trivialized though. </p><p>That is from the same tier and expansion though. When you add in pregressive content like different expanions as I talked about earlier, then other variable are added. </p>

Talz
02-16-2007, 06:30 PM
Time travel would be great because some of you need to go back and not get picked last in kickball again.

Ravaan
02-16-2007, 06:38 PM
<cite>Talzar wrote:</cite><blockquote>Time travel would be great because some of you need to go back and not get picked last in kickball again. </blockquote> no kidding, I should ask mr/mrs "i'm better at the game than you" how old he/she is. I can't see someone over 20 acting like that.