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View Full Version : Do u want some "hardcore" elements back?


SpellshaperC
02-15-2007, 12:47 AM
I heard that there were a lot of changes, that makes game more friendly to new or not experienced players. I think that most of them was good, but dont u think that we need some back? I dont mean the same way as it was, but something like "medium" difficulty of them. For example death penalty on release was hard and somtimes was impossible to get dead body back. But now on the other side, death is almost nothing. I think it should cause something more than 0,5% exp loss (but not as much as it was). Also crafting changes seems good, but there should be some challange for HC players. For ex. add to current system some improvements for HC crafters (with best, extra rare items). I hope u catch the point of this. I mean makeing only simplifications isnt the best way to  go for me, the game still needs its challenges and  hard things. Pls post your view on this, thx. If some dev. visit this topic by accident, pls think about it.

Tib
02-15-2007, 01:14 AM
I have read this 3 times now and I still have no idea what you're saying.  Please edit it and add in some proper punctuation and sentences.  3/4ths of the sentences do not make any sense.

Solar_Fla
02-15-2007, 01:32 AM
Not everyones language on these boards is native to english. Don't troll just to troll. Basicly they are asking for more risk in the game. More detriments to stupid actions so to speak. Like people who use death as a means of transportation and such.

Caliga
02-15-2007, 01:34 AM
Vanguard is trying to be hardcore and people are abandoning it like the plague.  I've heard so many negative things about it and one positive, someone said that their friend liked it...so a billion people hate it and one person knows somebody who didn't.  I call that shining reviews.   I used to get mad when someone's stupidity caused me to die and I had to get back all that lost exp or even worse, my shard.  Now I'll kill myself cause I don't feel like running across zone.  In some ways thats a bad thing, but now that we've been spoiled I think people would raise hell and high water if we once again got penalized for death.

Mirander_1
02-15-2007, 01:48 AM
There are some cases where I think the game could be just a bit more complex.  Tradeskilling, for instance; cutting down on the massive amounts of subcombines needed to make an item was a good move, in my opinion, but I think they shouldn't have cut them <i>all</i> out.  Lets use making a spell scroll, for an example.  Right now, you just need to gather the raw harvests, and you can make the spell straight from that; while in the old system, you would need to first craft a scroll, a quill, and an ink; and then to make the ink, you would need three subcombines, which would in turn need three more subcombines, which could (finally) be made with harvested items (I may have left out a few subcombines).  I think the devs shuld have gone for a system that is somewhere in the middle; a spell would still need the scroll, quill, and ink, but those items would be made from harvested raws.

Tib
02-15-2007, 01:56 AM
<p>I apologize if I offended the poster, I really didnt intend to.  I got a basic understanding of what you meant and that iwhy I posted what I did.. cause maybe if you went back over it you could make it clearer.  </p><p>I also responded cause I have thought about this many times.  Making THIS game more hardcore will drive more people away.  Now I do not suggest making it easier, but making it hardcore definately will drive the core gamer away.  Just like society, upper (hardcore), middle (casual) and lower (rarely) type of players populate servers.  If you make the middle the happiest then you will have a successful game.</p>

Brigh
02-15-2007, 02:47 AM
<cite>Mirander_1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>There are some cases where I think the game could be just a bit more complex.  Tradeskilling, for instance; cutting down on the massive amounts of subcombines needed to make an item was a good move, in my opinion, but I think they shouldn't have cut them <i>all</i> out.  Lets use making a spell scroll, for an example.  Right now, you just need to gather the raw harvests, and you can make the spell straight from that; while in the old system, you would need to first craft a scroll, a quill, and an ink; and then to make the ink, you would need three subcombines, which would in turn need three more subcombines, which could (finally) be made with harvested items (I may have left out a few subcombines).  I think the devs shuld have gone for a system that is somewhere in the middle; a spell would still need the scroll, quill, and ink, but those items would be made from harvested raws. </blockquote> The ink and quill could have been used multiple times, but would eventually wear out, while of course the paper would be a one-time use.

Lasai
02-15-2007, 03:06 AM
Tradeskill subcomps never added complexity, only timesink and tedium to an already lackluster plug and create crafting system. Had subcomps had stats or meaningful contributions to the end product, as in the original SWG crafting system, you would have a point regarding bringing them back. I agree that death is too cheap, but, once you have dumbed a game down you can never really go back. People will tolerate hard or being inconvienced only if it is what they are accustomed to, once the change is made to make anything easier the majority will never want "hard" back, and the new players that started after will object to thier game being changed to stiffer penalties. For instance.. I think the "New" Nektulos Forest is a joke, that the griff towers there should be burned and the ground where they stood salted and cursed, and at the very least the Thexian Dragoons should take N'Mars back. I really doubt that the majority would agree, nor would many that started the game after Nek was remade into Happy Gentle Foggy Forest.

YeldarbSpiritbla
02-15-2007, 03:41 AM
<p>It doesn't matter. I don't think they'll ever change it, unless to make it even easier...</p><p>EQ2 is almost to WoW easiness, and in some ways even easier, at least up to 40th level, so I don't think any changes to difficulty will be coming.</p><p>There was nothing at all wrong with the death penalty as it was. You died, you may, or may not, go back to get your shard. What happened if you didn't get your shard? Nothing, you could pay some guy to get that debt back, but leveling is so mind numbingly easy, it didn't really matter anyways. They probably removed the death penalty to alleviate shards in walls and floor, not for us. Even the old death penalty wasn't as bad as WoW's. So saying the death penalty chased away customers is just stupid. 8 million people are dealing with a stricter death penalty than the shards run we had before.</p><p>The combat change really made things easy, and the overland zone revamps just finally made it all pretty boring. So far, the endgame is pretty challenging and fun so far, until a bunch of soloers whine about the 1-2 hour raids and they change those too. Then the people that truly appreciate challenging and interesting gameplay can go to another game and all the easy mode people can stay here or go to WoW. They're basically the same game except for graphics anyways (in difficulty).</p><p>Tradeskilling: I agree completely. Vanguard did get this right, for now. You make the basic pieces, and then the final product. It's a bit more difficult than EQ2 now, but not the subcombine fest of earlier EQ2. What they really messed up here is the usefulness of a lot of the crafted product. Instead of crafted armor having a place between trash drops, crafted, named, and then mastercrafted, like they did before, now the whiners again have moaned until trash and crafted is the same garbage, and named and mastercrafted is the same stuff, and sometimes named is much better than mastercrafted. </p><p>Oh well, they had it right at first, a few tweaks here and there and it would've been perfect, but alas, they listened to the "lowest common denominator" and allowed them to bring the game down to their level. Now you can level from 1-70 in one month and never die once (my third character, a conjuror has never died one single time, EVER). How fun is that? ZZZZZZ</p>

YeldarbSpiritbla
02-15-2007, 03:43 AM
<cite>Lasai wrote:</cite><blockquote> For instance.. I think the "New" Nektulos Forest is a joke, that the griff towers there should be burned and the ground where they stood salted and cursed, and at the very least the Thexian Dragoons should take N'Mars back. I really doubt that the majority would agree, nor would many that started the game after Nek was remade into Happy Gentle Foggy Forest. </blockquote> LOL, I love that, funny stuff. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I agree.

TantrumX
02-15-2007, 04:37 AM
<p>Hmm...i guess every MMO has people who wants things to be more tedious and boring. Well im sorry if the majority of people in the world have lives outside of EQ2 and dont have time to learn a game that's made stupidly hard and frustrating, just for the sake of the hermid individuals who have nothing better to do with there time. In the end what have you accomplished by doing things the hard way...nothing except the fact that you have a lot of time on your hands.</p><p>It's a game...last time I heard, they're supposed to be fun.</p>

Felinu
02-15-2007, 04:57 AM
<p>Actually I've been thinking about this lately:</p><p>Could they put in a new server with the older rules (or modified rules), like they did with EQ and the servers that started at standard EQ and had to be worked up through the expansions?</p><p>The thing I mainly miss is the old character progression.  I actually enjoyed going through the class quests and earning my specialization, instead of "Hi, i'm a level 1 *insert subclass here*".  (I know i'm in the minority on that, but that's really what I miss most)</p><p> Ok, there's my 2cp.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

bongo12
02-15-2007, 07:16 AM
I played for about 3-4mths on release, grew to hate it espicially the death dept and then left, came back to check it out with the new fae expansion and now love it again. I say keep it the way it is, its nice and easy for low levels, you gain em fast, can make money easy, it all gets you into the game without punishing you and makes you want to stay which i think was the whole point of these changes. Going backwards would be a mistake.

aardda
02-15-2007, 07:27 AM
<p>It all depends on which 'hardcore' elements are considered. What is hardcore to some, isn't to others.</p><p>I would agree that the current death penalty isn't much of a penalty, and would probably support an increase of xp debt (up to maybe 3-5%) as right now it only takes a couple of mobs to clear it off. I wouldn't support any return to spirit shards or corpse runs etc.</p><p>Tradeskilling again, a lot of the stress and tedium was removed. While i much prefer this system to the original one (that was hell trying to make anything decent), do do feel they went a touch too far and could have probably left it as 2 stages rather than the one we have now.</p><p>The thing is tho, a great many of the people i've met here are in a similar situation to me. Everyone says how mature our community is for the most part, and a lot of that is due to many of us being of the original gaming generation (20-30's +) and work all day, come home and play eq2 to relax and have fun. The more 'hardcore' elements a game has the more like a 2nd job it becomes, and for myself and i'd bet many others like me would not be willing to put up with that.</p>

Norrsken
02-15-2007, 07:32 AM
<cite>aarddave wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>It all depends on which 'hardcore' elements are considered. What is hardcore to some, isn't to others.</p><p>I would agree that the current death penalty isn't much of a penalty, and would probably support an increase of xp debt (up to maybe 3-5%) as right now it only takes a couple of mobs to clear it off. I wouldn't support any return to spirit shards or corpse runs etc.</p><p>Tradeskilling again, a lot of the stress and tedium was removed. While i much prefer this system to the original one (that was hell trying to make anything decent), do do feel they went a touch too far and could have probably left it as 2 stages rather than the one we have now.</p><p>The thing is tho, a great many of the people i've met here are in a similar situation to me. Everyone says how mature our community is for the most part, and a lot of that is due to many of us being of the original gaming generation (20-30's +) and work all day, come home and play eq2 to relax and have fun. The more 'hardcore' elements a game has the more like a 2nd job it becomes, and for myself and i'd bet many others like me would not be willing to put up with that.</p></blockquote>I think they should put in varying difficulity of instances, such as nizara and stuff, where you are pretty much required to be in good gear and have a good head, or at least know your class and to stay the [Removed for Content] away from adds. Sure, its fun pulling whole rooms of heroics on occasion, but when you do it with a trio, its yellow heroics and you survive. I want like, some danger. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> No need to make all zones freakishly hard, just want one or two so I can feel I accomplished something when reaching the bottom named and taking it out.

gi
02-15-2007, 08:58 AM
<p>I agree that a greater element of danger would be good.  A small increase in experience debt, perhaps 1% per death instead of the amount it is now. However bringing back group xp debt is a bad idea in my opinion.</p><p>However as for Hardcore elements. Most peoples ideas for these in the past are little more than time sinks. </p><p>Time sinks do not make a game challenging or interesting. Unless you consider the challenge to be to stay awake, or not get frustrated! </p><p>Introduction of more epic questlines, like the new one for GU32 should be considered, and perhaps increasing the level requirement for the previous epic questlines for the previous level caps. such as Fire & Ice. Bring these up to date and make the difficult designed for 60+ </p>

Pelda
02-15-2007, 11:28 AM
Time sinks do not make a game hard.  They make them tedious.  Death penalties that require you to spend 30 minutes just to try to get your corpse isn't hardcore its just a time sink.  Keeping things predictable is what makes the game easy.  They need a better AI for mobs that is able to change what the mobs do.  That would make the game more challenging and fun.

SpellshaperC
02-15-2007, 11:46 AM
I dont want ANY of changes back. I mean that there should be done something NEW to make game more challenging (not boring, timespending or so), just give an OPPORTUNITY for hardcore players. I want just to point on that "make all easy" trend, that easy thing isnt allways the best. And I want to keep EQ2 reputation as mat ure, but also friendly game. EDIT: Maybe I should take a note about my English. I thing you all recognized, that I am not English and it looks like it. So dont be afraid to tell me about my mistakes. In such case I prefer polite  way (as it was here) and Personal Message (PM ins tead of making OT). Thx u

MrWolfie
02-15-2007, 12:17 PM
<p><b>SpellshaperCZE</b> Wrote:</p><p>              Do u want some "hardcore" elements back?</p><p>No. I want "hardcore" players driven from the game, preferably to Vanguard.</p><p>I want guilds broken and in disarray, to be replaced by small tight-knit families and couples.</p><p>I want the group-size reduced to a maximum of FOUR characters. I want raids reduced to ^^^x2, with no raid window and chat restricted to /say. In fact, I'd like to see all server-wide and user-configurable chat channels removed too.</p><p>All new characters should have their names inspected by a GM within a week of creation, and a thorough culling of the stupid and profane already in existence.</p><p>Players would also be subject to suspension for trangressing the EULA or breaking the immersion. I suspect *this* alone would be a true challenge to most gamers. Of course, I'd employ a death squad for the heinous crime of using leet speak or mispelling the word "the". Be afraid...</p>

Boadicca
02-15-2007, 12:29 PM
I miss having a shard to recover.  A fear of death taught me about trying not to draw aggro..it taught me responsibility when i was grouped.  I had guild mates that didn't pay attention to where their butt was and would get the group wiped.  They got bounced because they never learned.  Without a shard recovery run, they don't have to learn to pay attention to where they are.

Caliga
02-15-2007, 12:36 PM
<cite>TantrumX wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Hmm...i guess every MMO has people who wants things to be more tedious and boring. Well im sorry if the majority of people in the world have lives outside of EQ2 and dont have time to learn a game that's made stupidly hard and frustrating, just for the sake of the hermid individuals who have nothing better to do with there time. In the end what have you accomplished by doing things the hard way...nothing except the fact that you have a lot of time on your hands.</p><p>It's a game...last time I heard, they're supposed to be fun.</p></blockquote>We'll clearly you want SOME challenge.  EQ wouldn't be very fun if when you created a character you started off 70 with all fabled gear.  No, you want to do some tedious and boring grinding to earn your levels.  That way you get the good feeling of having achieved something. (You want to spend time leveling up a character?  You must have A LOT of free time) Well its the same for people who are complaining that EQ is becoming too easy, if they feel like everything is being handed to them they won't get that warm fuzzy feeling when they accomplish something.  A perfect example is Nek, Nek used to be a newbie death trap, but when you made it across Nek you felt proud, you had really done something.  Now you can run all around the zone at level 1 and surivive.   No one is getting to the docks anymore glowing with pride.

MrWolfie
02-15-2007, 01:05 PM
<cite>Caliga wrote:</cite><blockquote>We'll clearly you want SOME challenge.  EQ wouldn't be very fun if when you created a character you started off 70 with all fabled gear.  No, you want to do some tedious and boring grinding to earn your levels.  That way you get the good feeling of having achieved something. (You want to spend time leveling up a character?  You must have A LOT of free time) Well its the same for people who are complaining that EQ is becoming too easy, if they feel like everything is being handed to them they won't get that warm fuzzy feeling when they accomplish something.  A perfect example is Nek, Nek used to be a newbie death trap, but when you made it across Nek you felt proud, you had really done something.  Now you can run all around the zone at level 1 and surivive.   No one is getting to the docks anymore glowing with pride. </blockquote><p> If that were true there'd be no market for eBay'd characters and plat, or the official trade servers. Some people DO like it handed to them, but that does not mean that the standard EQ2 server is pandering to them ~ the game is supposed to be balanced for the CASUAL player. So if you're a raider, if you're always in a full group, or if you're on for looooong periods of time, this game isn't really tailored for you. </p><p>Also, the dumbing down of Nek Forest has NOTHING to do with the removal of time sinks and annoying mechanics. At level 4, I could run across Nek when it was dangerous because I'd already done it a million times with my main and I knew the place like the back of my hand. True, it was still dangerous for newbies and should have remained so. </p>

MrWolfie
02-15-2007, 01:18 PM
<cite>Boadicca wrote:</cite><blockquote>I miss having a shard to recover.  A fear of death taught me about trying not to draw aggro..it taught me responsibility when i was grouped.  I had guild mates that didn't pay attention to where their butt was and would get the group wiped.  They got bounced because they never learned.  Without a shard recovery run, they don't have to learn to pay attention to where they are.</blockquote><p> LOL. 75 kills/death. That shard retrieval didn't teach you much. I know Warlocks with a better record than that. </p><p>PS. Boadicca is in contravention of the EULA naming policy. If you want a challenge how about following the game's rules?</p>

Bawang
02-15-2007, 01:20 PM
The term "hardcore" sometimes can be hard to pin down.  What many people call "hardcore" are the elements which only add to the timesink aspect of the game.  MMORPG makers need timesinks to slow down access to content.  What I would like is constant production of content which would eliminate the need for timesinks. A hardcore game to me is one which provides me with the opportunity of higher risks for higher rewards.  The real problem of EQ2 for me right now is that there isn't much out there which excites me as worth striving for, especially when what they want me to do to earn it is mindnumbingly boring. A new paradigm is needed for MMORPG games.  It's my opinion that current MMORPG players are of a particular personality type which is willing to put up with long dull activities for a reward.  A new type of game, one which provided actual story lines and which immersed players in the story of their own characters would have no dull repetitive content and would therefore appeal to a wider constituency of people who are out there but who have so far not being attracted by the crop of games which have come along so far.  I'm talking about the people who regularly watch movies or read books to entertain themselves.  MMORPG games should be more like movies in this sense: if a movie repeats the same scene over and over everyone would walk out of the theater.  This is how creators would think in this new paradigm.  No more "Kill 1000 sentient beings" types of quests, but rather quests each written by a master story teller.  Quests with meaning.  If a movie or a book can bring you to tears, so should a fantasy game.

Dasein
02-15-2007, 01:52 PM
People place far too much emphasis on the instructive power of negative renforcement like death penalties. At best, a more severe death penalty teaches a risk adverse gameplay strategy, discourages exploration and experimentation and overall makes for very boring gameplay. At worst, it causes people to quit the game all together.

antwar
02-15-2007, 02:25 PM
<cite>Norrsken wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think they should put in varying difficulity of instances, such as nizara and stuff, where you are pretty much required to be in good gear and have a good head, or at least know your class and to stay the [I cannot control my vocabulary] away from adds. Sure, its fun pulling whole rooms of heroics on occasion, but when you do it with a trio, its yellow heroics and you survive. I want like, some danger. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> No need to make all zones freakishly hard, just want one or two so I can feel I accomplished something when reaching the bottom named and taking it out. </blockquote>i agree with this to a point. there SHOULD be some zones that are freakishly hard and require you and your raid to be on the same page the entire time, take practice to actually win them, and require you to have good gear, INCLUDING the new adornments. the rest of the game should stay as it is, but there should be some raid-only instances where you raid it, and it drops one piece of loot. ONE. yes i mean that. that way you HAVE to go back and do the raid over and over a few times to make sure the rest of you are geared to do the next harder raid. i personally hate guilds who are "raid" guilds, and as soon as the top 5% of the regular raiders in the guild have the loot they want from the raid, they move on to the next raid stuff. and the other people who cant commit quite so much time, but are still interested in raiding get left behind. the game should NOT be the haves and have-nots like EQ1 became.  make it so that you NEED to have that certain class to make sure you complete the raid, make it so that you NEED that certain item with that certain effect on ALL of the raiders to succeed in the raid. sort of like a key. you raid a lower instance, and at the end upon completion, you get ONE drop of the "key" item for the next tier raid. this way, you HAVE to have your core raidforce keyed in order to advance, even if they cant raid every day of the week. this is remarkably similar to EQ1 with the "flags", only you MUST have the item in question in your charm slot to actually be able to enter the zone. it adds a buff effect that allows the zoneline to become activateable. this way, you will HAVE to have everyone in the raid have the "key" item otherwise, the raid wont work. if you wanted, you could make it an actual key in the game, and then you have to purchase with SP a "keyring" and then combine the 2 to add the key to the ring, and the ring itself is the charm slot item that makes the zoneline activateable when equipped. and you can add multiple keys to the one keyring. sort of like how they changed the master strike to have only one spell icon, but you have to complete the lore and legend quests to actually get the thing to hit that mob. long-winded i know, but it is boring at work right now, and i had alot of time on my hands to think about it. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

HairyDustBall
02-15-2007, 02:32 PM
Ok im gonna weigh in on the death penalty: First it is to easy to die (being 1 shotted is not something that can be avoided with skill) to have a strict death penalty and not only is it to easy to die its to easy to die to lag/bugs etc.. second some roles (such as the MT) tend to die more often causeing them a much worse penalty.   Also as posted above I found it hard to get anyone to do anything that might be considered a mild challenge in fear of loosing a shard back in the day. However I wouldnt mind special zones say group zones that drop fabled that would have crazy failure penalties.  Ie if your forced to revive (out side the zone) you could have a an xp loss even resulting in level loss or a chance to loose a piece of equipment.  Or if 1 in 20 chance if you die one of the above happens.

Ganlu
02-15-2007, 03:03 PM
I didn't mind the concept of spirit shards, what sucked was the fact you could lose your spirit shard somewhere extremely difficult to get back to (for example, a group bailing on you) and you had 3 days of reduced stats because of it.  If they had left spirit shards in and kept the briefly introduced ability to summon your shard, I don't think they were all that bad. However, stricter death penalties do nothing but dissuade people from exploring and testing their limits.  If death penalties are severe people will only try things they are sure they can win, because it's not worth the risk.  That makes for a boring game, in my opinion.

MaryJane666
02-15-2007, 03:19 PM
<p>My turn!</p><p>First off, I do have to say I miss the spirit shards.  Maybe this is because I came over from EQ1 and remember having to go and retrieve your body.  However, if they brought back the spirit shards, maybe they could give an ability to healer classes or even to the necromancers that will transport the shard to them such as they had in EQ1.  I think that would have been a better change than removing them completely.  Then at least if your shard was somewhere you couldn't reach you would at least have an option to get it back still.</p><p>As for crafting, I like the changes.  But I guess thats because I HATE grinding with a passion.  But then again I guess thats why I quest so much.  I don't like lvling for the sake of lvling.  I don't mind having a couple intermediate steps, but the old sysytem was cumbersome and boring and frusterating.  Now I actually enjoy crafting.  Again, i do think they could add a few steps and then improve the armor, weapons and such because crafted items are a joke now.</p><p>Well there is my 2c</p>

Sebastien
02-15-2007, 03:20 PM
<p>I am done with "hardcore".</p><p><b>What does "hardcore" mean?</b>  It doesn't mean "requires a lot of skill" and it doesn't mean "requires a lot of intelligence".  It doesn't mean "requires great reflexes."  All it means.. <u>all that it means is: "requires a lot of time."</u></p><p>I encourage SOE to make the game as complex as they wish.  I encourage them to create content that is as challenging to figure out / defeat as they possibly can make it.  But I don't want arbitrary time sinks whose sole intention is to drag out repetitive content, as a poor substitute for fun.</p><p>Saying "no" to "hardcore" gaming has nothing to do with challenge or skill level.  It simply means I expect better from the designers.  If something is to be challenging, it should be a bona fide challenge, not just an arbitrary timesink.</p>

Caliga
02-16-2007, 03:03 AM
<cite>MrWolfie wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Caliga wrote:</cite><blockquote>We'll clearly you want SOME challenge.  EQ wouldn't be very fun if when you created a character you started off 70 with all fabled gear.  No, you want to do some tedious and boring grinding to earn your levels.  That way you get the good feeling of having achieved something. (You want to spend time leveling up a character?  You must have A LOT of free time) Well its the same for people who are complaining that EQ is becoming too easy, if they feel like everything is being handed to them they won't get that warm fuzzy feeling when they accomplish something.  A perfect example is Nek, Nek used to be a newbie death trap, but when you made it across Nek you felt proud, you had really done something.  Now you can run all around the zone at level 1 and surivive.   No one is getting to the docks anymore glowing with pride. </blockquote><p> If that were true there'd be no market for eBay'd characters and plat, or the official trade servers. Some people DO like it handed to them, but that does not mean that the standard EQ2 server is pandering to them ~ the game is supposed to be balanced for the CASUAL player. So if you're a raider, if you're always in a full group, or if you're on for looooong periods of time, this game isn't really tailored for you. </p><p>Also, the dumbing down of Nek Forest has NOTHING to do with the removal of time sinks and annoying mechanics. At level 4, I could run across Nek when it was dangerous because I'd already done it a million times with my main and I knew the place like the back of my hand. True, it was still dangerous for newbies and should have remained so. </p></blockquote>I doubt people get that warm feeling of pride and accomplishment when they recieve their ebay character.  I'm guess the "challenge" then comes from raiding and grouping with a class you have no idea how to play. What people are failing to see is there is a scale.  Stretching all the way from ebay toons to I want it to take 10 hours to get from level 1 to level 2.  Most people are somewhere in the middle of that, but not in the same place in the middle.   People arguing making game harder makes them suck don't realize the game is already harder than it could be and once they pass their point on the scale where enough challenge is taken out they too will long for the "good ole days".  Can you imagine being able to insta-port anywhere in the game by just picking a place on a drop down menu?  That would be easier than bells and boats, does that mean its better?  Personally I think something like that would take away from the game.  Travel would be far quicker but it would kill the vastness of the world, the need to explore and see all the stuff they worked so hard to put into game.  Imagine grinding through RoV 100 times without ever having been to TS. Thats how some people feel about dying (not me personally but I understand where they come from).   Back with shards dying actual meant something which meant trying actually meant something.  Now no one cares if they die, there is no need to make plans or use some kind of strategy.  If we wipe, rebuff and do it again.

Miele
02-16-2007, 07:32 AM
Original EQ2: - shared exp debt: I consider it a [Removed for Content] mechanic still today, it didn't promote pickup groups, although it could look more fair regarding tanks and sometimes healers, in reality it was a crutch. I remember people logging off because when tackling difficult content and dying a couple times made their debt amount too big to continue. I never cared, but I know a lot did care. - corpse shards: they should have just put in a feature to summon it back keeping the debt or getting it recovering some exp debt. The shards at times disappeared, went under the world, etc. so they got rid of them for multiple reasons. - Original Nektulos forest: yeah it was scary etc. especially in the northern part, lot of other overland zones were filled with a truckload of heoric mobs, but as I say since EQ1 days: "if you can see the sky, the zone probably sucks", meaning that the real fun was, is and will always be in dungeons. Leave the overland to soloers, I'll keep going into dungeons. Current EQ2: - there is NO annoying mechanic, aside from traveling a bit for some areas, but that imo adds to immersion, even if I do the trip 100 times. - crafting is now ok for me too, the anti-crafter for excellence, because it's not tedious, it doesn't require me to have my bank filled with subcombine stuff and it produces desiderable items. - time investment is ok as it is now: I can get stuff done in 30 minutes or in 4 hours depending on the complexity/difficulty. Couldn't ask much more. I played EQ2 at release for about 5 months, then left for WoW, played it for 19 months. I came back here for EoF and I'm hooked since then. There are now 24 fun classes, pretty much balanced (don't nitpick please), zones are nicely done and you can see how they have been lovely handcrafted, compared to the copy/paste of WoW (each inn like the others for example). I love both games, but now EQ2 has to considered from my point of view the best game on the market by a long shot. I'm overwhelmed by the amount of content at my disposal, I know if I'll roll an alt I can do a lot of different quests, zones and dungeons and not the same 3 places I did with my main. The community is pretty much the best I could hope for and I don't miss at all any of the so called "hardcore" elements that were in at release. I was 100% hardcore in EQ1, nowadays I just don't care about judging those things, if they are in a game, I'll deal with them, if they are not... amen. While I'm at it, at risk of sounding like a fanboy, I want to thanks SoE and Scott for the great job done with EQ2 in these years, it's truly a well polished game now and really fun. Just work a bit more on bugs and stability now, ok? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Mechizedek
02-16-2007, 08:03 AM
 You want hardcore?Remember Diablo2?They had what they called hardcore servers,if you die once that was it!Imagine such a server for eq2..........My other advice for hardcore action,a pvp server where u can't buy gold with real world money! Oh,and how about rp servers having some sort of rules about names and such,hard to role-play with Newbee McNoob or Qkillah and Freepy Freepenstien....just a few thoughts...

Chirpaa
02-16-2007, 08:28 AM
<cite>Mechizedek wrote:</cite><blockquote> You want hardcore?Remember Diablo2?They had what they called hardcore servers,if you die once that was it!Imagine such a server for eq2..........My other advice for hardcore action,a pvp server where u can't buy gold with real world money! Oh,and how about rp servers having some sort of rules about names and such,hard to role-play with Newbee McNoob or Qkillah and Freepy Freepenstien....just a few thoughts... </blockquote><p> Really scary...I was scrolling to the end, reading all the posts, with the intent of eventually replying pretty much with what you said, regarding hardcore Diablo2.</p><p>Actually, I think EQ2 could be well served if they set up a "hardcore" server.  Put in a hefty death penalty and make everything else harder too.  Then the people that really feel that having everything take longer and having death result in tedium would have a place to play and be satisifed instead of lobbying to try to force playstyles that cater to those with a lot more free time than most working adults have on said working adults. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>P.S. I loved the so called "hardcore" back in the day...so I have nothing against those who want this type of game.  But since then I've gotten a real career (not just a job) and a family.  I no longer have time for it.  A server just for those who do isn't such a bad idea.</p>

Levatino
02-16-2007, 08:33 AM
<cite>aarddave wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>It all depends on which 'hardcore' elements are considered. What is hardcore to some, isn't to others.</p><p>I would agree that the current death penalty isn't much of a penalty, and would probably support an increase of xp debt (up to maybe 3-5%) as right now it only takes a couple of mobs to clear it off. I wouldn't support any return to spirit shards or corpse runs etc.</p><p>Tradeskilling again, a lot of the stress and tedium was removed. While i much prefer this system to the original one (that was hell trying to make anything decent), do do feel they went a touch too far and could have probably left it as 2 stages rather than the one we have now.</p><p>The thing is tho, a great many of the people i've met here are in a similar situation to me. Everyone says how mature our community is for the most part, and a lot of that is due to many of us being of the original gaming generation (20-30's +) and work all day, come home and play eq2 to relax and have fun. The more 'hardcore' elements a game has the more like a 2nd job it becomes, and for myself and i'd bet many others like me would not be willing to put up with that.</p></blockquote>I completely agree, I work all day and when I play EQ2 I want to play not to stress about halfproducts or thinking how to get my shard back from a dungeon I have grouped in. I however can imagine people who want that though, so make a special server for them. Although technical that may be hard to accomplish cause you get two different games.

Jal
02-16-2007, 08:35 AM
Id just say go back to the shards and the shard merchants so if you dont want to trek to recover it you pay some silver.

Spyderbite
02-16-2007, 08:58 AM
Two words... Lootable Corpses. In an item based game such as EQ2 (actually they're all item based these days), it doesn't get any more "hard core" than losing your stuff when you die. On the PvP servers, people will think twice before suiting up in fabled gear and heading out. Bringing a bit more balance back to PvP and reintroducing skill to the game rather than BvB.. Bank Account vs. Bank Account. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Never happen.. and I'm just playing Devil's Advocate here. But, whenever I see a post such as this, in any game for that matter, it always boils down to people want their cake and eat it too. They want penalty on death.. but it shouldn't be <b>too </b>penalizing. The debates go on forever and in the meantime the Devs go about their business with other mechanics of the game. When it comes to adding challenge to a MMORPG, especially but not limited to just Death, count your blessing that old school gamers like myself aren't Developers. Not only would their be lootable corpses; but, Death would require a rez from another player and equipment could only be mended by another player with the necessary crafting skills. <img src="/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

RipFlex
02-16-2007, 09:31 AM
<p>It's too late now, if Sopny went back and made Trapped chests actually dangerous again, or death penalty to the group or individual a meaniful loss, all the kiddie players will cry.</p><p>It will be nice if Sony made a test server and call it (Hardcore) type.  Where you get 2x or 3X XP Sever but all the Herioc only content and all the old EQ2 death traps, shard runs and a few more EQ1ish stuff maybe... see if anyone bothers playing on it?  Just as an experiment... I know I would, I know how to play my class(es) and play well with others.</p><p>/ooc Needing 1 scout type to disarm killer Thundering Steppes Trapped chests from Centaurs on centaur bridge for Centaur LnL GROUP !!!</p><p>(Above ooc actually is true upon EQ2 launch... remember "Centaur Bridge" as it was called?)</p>

Norrsken
02-16-2007, 09:55 AM
<cite>Sebastien wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I am done with "hardcore".</p><p><b>What does "hardcore" mean?</b>  It doesn't mean "requires a lot of skill" and it doesn't mean "requires a lot of intelligence".  It doesn't mean "requires great reflexes."  All it means.. <u>all that it means is: "requires a lot of time."</u></p><p>I encourage SOE to make the game as complex as they wish.  I encourage them to create content that is as challenging to figure out / defeat as they possibly can make it.  But I don't want arbitrary time sinks whose sole intention is to drag out repetitive content, as a poor substitute for fun.</p><p>Saying "no" to "hardcore" gaming has nothing to do with challenge or skill level.  It simply means I expect better from the designers.  If something is to be challenging, it should be a bona fide challenge, not just an arbitrary timesink.</p></blockquote>To me, as an aging, and thru 2 decades of gaming, skilled gamer hardcore means just that. Something that is challenging for us a bit more seasoned players. Time sinks are just as dull to us, perhaps even more dull since most of us have seen so very many of them. Challenge to a hardcore gamer does not mean the stamina to outlast timesinks. IT means to beat hard content. Say, playing a hardcore character in d2 to lvl cap on the hardest skill setting. Stuff like that. Not "OOh, killt his mob with a 15 minute reuse 200 times for the ultra rare named to spawn, that I'll beat just as easily as his placeholder" That is not hardcore. That is stupid and bad game design.

CHIMPNOODLE.
02-16-2007, 11:13 AM
<p>Well, I wouldn't object to the bringing back of shards (I would then no longer have to explain my guildname dozens of times per week lol). I even enjoyed the group debt at the time...but most did not, and it was hurting grouping opportunities and killing lower level raiding.</p><p>I love a challenge, and there *is* still challenges in-game for the hardcore....but more would be great too. </p><p>I don't miss the subcombines in tradeskilling at all. I was never a fan of tradeskilling...and still am not...but now I don't mind pumping out a piece or two for a guildmate if requested. </p><p>I wouldn't mind the removal of a few of the quick-travel features as well. </p><p>Overall, I'm happy with the changes though. It seems to have improved the population. I remember how nasty people were when group xp debt and shard retrieval was in (before beeing able to pay for retrieval). I remember people loggin off for 3 days in utter frustration with 75% debt Xp in their level 40s (before the 50% cap came in). They had stats of a lvl 11 from the penalties and shards scattered all over the world. Tons of nasty comments and people dropping groups without a word etc....and ever growing /ignore lists. People rarely wanted to go *anywhere* interesting for fear of dying.</p><p>I also remember the incessant /tells  and OOCs from people begging non-stop for help retrieving their shards. I spent whole days just on shard retrieval for guildmates (greying out zones/clearing)...meanwhile wishing I had a chance to go out adventuring myself.</p><p>I don't miss the lowering of the fabled repair costs either....used to cost me ~50 gold per night in repairs...lol, don't miss that at all.</p><p>I do kinda miss seeing people die when you opened chests lol. People screaming "Don't open the chest!!!" when they were not max health at fight's end lol....priceless.</p><p>Adding more Castle Mistmoore/Nizara/Nek 3 style zones for all level ranges (or around that difficulty)...as well as more epic/tough heroic questlines would be great though. More challenging places and quests (with appropriate rewards!..."what's up with the Harla Dar Chestpiece reward for the LoA Epic quest btw?!"..that reward still baffles me)), would be better than timesink penalties and monotonous repetition.</p><p>Filmore Graves</p><p>Guild leader of The Shard Collectors</p><p><a href="http://www.shardcollectors.com/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">WWW.SHARDCOLLECTORS.COM</a></p><p>Unrest Server</p>

Typhonian
02-16-2007, 02:33 PM
<cite>Miele wrote:</cite><blockquote>I played EQ2 at release for about 5 months, then left for WoW, played it for 19 months. I came back here for EoF and I'm hooked since then. There are now 24 fun classes, pretty much balanced (don't nitpick please), zones are nicely done and you can see how they have been lovely handcrafted, compared to the copy/paste of WoW (each inn like the others for example). I love both games, but now EQ2 has to considered from my point of view the best game on the market by a long shot. I'm overwhelmed by the amount of content at my disposal, I know if I'll roll an alt I can do a lot of different quests, zones and dungeons and not the same 3 places I did with my main. The community is pretty much the best I could hope for and I don't miss at all any of the so called "hardcore" elements that were in at release. I was 100% hardcore in EQ1, nowadays I just don't care about judging those things, if they are in a game, I'll deal with them, if they are not... amen. While I'm at it, at risk of sounding like a fanboy, I want to thanks SoE and Scott for the great job done with EQ2 in these years, it's truly a well polished game now and really fun. Just work a bit more on bugs and stability now, ok? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote><p>At the risk of over-quoting, can I just emphasise what Miele has said. I'm in a similar position to her (played EQ2 at release, left for WoW because EQ2 at that time was horrible, and now have come back to a surprisingly excellent game, miles better than WoW is or will ever be).</p><p>An MMOPRG, I think at any rate, should be about a) immersion, b) fun and then, and only then c) challenge. What was fun about endless shard runs and massive amounts of xp debt unless you were some sort of masochist? The old Nek was no fun at all. Remember, for FPers, Nek was the next instance zone up from the Commonlands, and the old Nek was way to much of a difficulty leap up from the Commonlands. Keep the new Nek. I like it.</p>

Sebastien
02-16-2007, 03:47 PM
<cite>Norrsken wrote:</cite><blockquote>To me, as an aging, and thru 2 decades of gaming, skilled gamer hardcore means just that. Something that is challenging for us a bit more seasoned players. Time sinks are just as dull to us, perhaps even more dull since most of us have seen so very many of them. Challenge to a hardcore gamer does not mean the stamina to outlast timesinks. IT means to beat hard content. Say, playing a hardcore character in d2 to lvl cap on the hardest skill setting. Stuff like that. Not "OOh, killt his mob with a 15 minute reuse 200 times for the ultra rare named to spawn, that I'll beat just as easily as his placeholder" That is not hardcore. That is stupid and bad game design. </blockquote><p> Then we essentially agree Norrsken.</p><p>My issue with "hardcore" is that, when I read the suggestions, they are typically: bring back corpse retrieval and death penalties, bring back ultra rare spawn camping, make leveling slower, etc, etc.  Most people that advocate "hardcore" games are actually just advocating a penalty for people who don't have as much time as they do.  There is this (frustrating) mentality prevalent in the "hardcore" pve crowd that somehow they should be entitled to things purely on the basis of time spent, that they don't need to be a good player so long as they are able to camp for 72 hours straight without showering or acknowledging loved ones.</p><p>My position is that this was a terrible mentality, instilled by EQ1, (and I might mention an irresponsible mentality to promote in an entertainment product geared toward young folk), and this old way of thinking is dying.  For me, so much the better.  The designers of 2nd and 3rd gen mmorpg's (I feel we are still really in the 1st gen) will be challenged to create games that reward player choices and actions, rather than simply time spent.</p>

Sebastien
02-16-2007, 03:54 PM
<p>Couple of general points -</p><p>1. Some folks mentioned a "hardcore" server.  I'm not personally opposed to that idea since it doesn't effect me at all, but honeslty.. why would SOE do that?  They have Vanguard in their portfolio of games now and supposedly this will be positioned as the niche "hardcore" product.  They probably wish to further distinguish EQ2 from Vanguard, rather than blur the boundaries.</p><p>2. About travel time.. I'm not totally opposed to the idea that travel time has some merit; it does.  It's true that travel time helps to create a sense of the game world being a real space, etc.  However, it's also true that, after you've gone through that travel once or twice, you are essentially dealing with wasted time that could be spent having fun instead.</p><p>For a game to involve a significant travel time component, it really needs to be designed around that idea.  You also need a large population on the servers because, if there is significant travel time, players will need functional outposts and essentially these outposts become the base of operations.</p><p>Overall I just don't think the pro's outwiegh the con's.  It's one of those things that is a nice idea on paper, but practically speaking doesn't improve the fun of the game.</p>

Ba
02-16-2007, 04:13 PM
<p>Hey, I just went and did Nek castle with a group of 3 people, all level 30. Inquisitor (my alt), SK, Wizard. None dressed in anything higher than treasured/mastercrafted with a couple of legendary items (mainly from HQ's).</p><p>Guess what, it was hard and challenging. And fun. We died multiple times (especially on the sisters and Everling).</p><p>You make your own challenges. Don't just treat the game like some kind of stone bible (thou must do this at this level with this group structure and not anything else!)</p>

Ravaan
02-16-2007, 04:18 PM
<p>I guess i echo what other say, it depends on what you mean by hardcore. If you mean more timesinks then i give you a Heck no. I don't want to grind for 4 hours only to lose that in one death, i would quit the day that it is implemented. And unlike some numbnuts said, I am not a "kiddie gamer" because i don't want my life to revolve around the game.</p><p>that being said I would like more Complex classes, more complex quests and more complex fighting system.</p>

thedu
02-16-2007, 06:55 PM
Why do these threads persist? Every LU/GU has produced a similar thread since EQ2's going live. It seems, to me that, it's people who have tons and tons of time to play this game that want it to be more "hardcore".  I agree with some others that they should create a special server for this; but you know what would happen? probably only about 5% of the people would go there - because with PvP there just aren't enough people that have the same amount of time to play as the "hardcore" people.

Azan
02-17-2007, 01:42 AM
The only "hardcore" content I would want to see is more challenging, scripted and complex content. THAT is where the true challenge in a game comes, not in the repetitive timesinks. The most satisfaction I get from an MMO isn't finishing some quest like where I had to kill 10000 mobs to get the uber-rare drop, it's where myself and my group or guildmates finally beat a difficult and challenging encounter that took us a long time to figure out. It doesn't all have to be x4 raid encounters. It just has to be more creative than the usual heal+dps vs. mob dps equation. I would rather fail 100x at an encounter, and finally beat it on the 101st, then to kill an encounter 100x in a row waiting for some rare item to drop. That's the big misconception some people seem to have. Just because I don't have 8 straight hours to dedicate to a task doesn't mean I don't want to be challenged for the time I do spend here. I don't want things handed to me on a silver platter. I <i>want</i> to be challenged. What I don't want is to be bored to tears by repetitive content.

Devout Disciple
02-18-2007, 01:46 AM
<p><b>If they put in that horrible sub-combine again I have to say I just will not craft.   I do wish to craft though.  If anything I say lower the fuel costs.  Just my opinion I guess.</b></p><p>Those who are complaining about the dumbing down of Nek aught to go to Loping Plains solo.  Plenty of Heroic mobs there to smack your behind around if you don't watch the road.  At least I think it's dangerous there since my first time tonight.  I was grouped but for those who want suicide runs go solo.</p><p> Lastly if you want more trouble in the game handed to you (If that makes you happy) I invite you to play a plate wearer up to 70.  Plenty of gimping there since LU13.  My opinion anyway.</p>

YeldarbSpiritbla
02-18-2007, 02:32 AM
<cite>Azanth wrote:</cite><blockquote>The only "hardcore" content I would want to see is more challenging, scripted and complex content. THAT is where the true challenge in a game comes, not in the repetitive timesinks. The most satisfaction I get from an MMO isn't finishing some quest like where I had to kill 10000 mobs to get the uber-rare drop, it's where myself and my group or guildmates finally beat a difficult and challenging encounter that took us a long time to figure out. It doesn't all have to be x4 raid encounters. It just has to be more creative than the usual heal+dps vs. mob dps equation. I would rather fail 100x at an encounter, and finally beat it on the 101st, then to kill an encounter 100x in a row waiting for some rare item to drop. That's the big misconception some people seem to have. Just because I don't have 8 straight hours to dedicate to a task doesn't mean I don't want to be challenged for the time I do spend here. I don't want things handed to me on a silver platter. I <i>want</i> to be challenged. What I don't want is to be bored to tears by repetitive content. </blockquote><p>I completely agree with you, but if you make group content this hard, only the hardcore would play it. Look at Nizara, one of the harder group dungeons in the game. It hardly ever gets played, but has hard mobs, placement, and good rewards. It would be cool to have group bosses with a kick, but how many people would actually go through the 100x to actually try to figure it out?</p><p>Truly, nothing in this game takes over 2 hours, except maybe 2 raid zones, EH and SotL. So far that I've seen no MMO has gotten away from the Timesink + Challenge = Reward equation. I'll guess we'll have to keep waiting. A lot of games lower the challenge, and try to alleviate the timesink as much as they can, but if it gets out of whack, then people get bored, or complain there's too much timesink. If there isn't enough timesink, then everyone ends up the same and the world looks like Munchkin Land. Really pretty, but very repetitive. </p>

Squigglle
02-18-2007, 01:28 PM
<p>hardcore gaming is gone.... with all the games now that you can buy that you lvl faster in no one wants to hardcore grind a character. i dont blame them, people dont got that much time. one thing eq2 has done was remove alot of that which is great, remember when we had to go get our spirit once we died? and death was like-8% now deaths like 0.5%</p><p>  im happy with it, keep it the way it is, thats what destroyed swg, people were crying nerf at everything and were not happy. not saying you guys are crying, i know your not, your just asking players how they feel which is great, but please dont try to change to much <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>