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Darthus
02-13-2007, 02:39 PM
<p>Hey all,</p><p>I'm a returning EQ2 player, who's always been into PvP and have just started seriously on Nagafen. I love the combat, the coin/item loot, most everything I've experienced so far. One thing that I've found out about the hard way though is twinking. I've been levelling in areas like The Sprawl near Freeport, and will see people come in near my level, except for one major difference. They are near invincible. Here is one example:</p><p>I was stealthing along, saw a stealthing Froglok, and was attacked. I didn't even attack back because he had gotten the jump on me and I realized I had little chance. Note that he is level 12 and I am level 13.</p><p><img src="http://www.corpsecamp.com/gildorath.jpg" border="0"></p><p>I die of course, come back to life, and find the guy. I try to Shadow Blade him, he resists/I miss or something, then this happens (He doesn't even fight back I'm assuming because he realizes there is no way for me to kill him:</p><p> <img src="http://www.corpsecamp.com/gildorath2.jpg" border="0"></p><p>Notice a difference? And note that I was level 13, he was level 12. At this point, I assume he's twinking, which I'd understood you could do, but just didn't realize the sheer extent of difference it made.</p><p>This has been the majority of my PvP experience so far. In the Sprawl last night a group of 5 of us attacked a level 17 Fae (riding a magic carpet last no less), along with another group of 5, and we just spent 5 minutes chasing her around, never got her below half life, even when we were all attacking her. In fact, I've been in probably a dozen fights and have yet to win one of them 1v1.</p><p>So I'm thinking "If I can't beat them, I'd better join them". A friend was kind enough to give me 20 platinum. Now I'm sitting here, looking at the market, realizing I can buy legendary level 12 weaponry for a platinum that does less damage than a bad level 20 weapon, realizing that PvP will no longer have much reward, since what will looting a few silver mean, that crafting will have no point and realizing that twinking my guy out will make PvE less challenging and interesting.</p><p>I have yet to spend the money, and I'm tempted to just give it back and just deal with a good amount of the people my level being unkillable. Has anyone else encountered this to this extent? Do you have any recommendations?</p><p>Please keep the replies civil, and refrain from posts of "Cry more nub" or "Go play a PvE server". I love PvP in general and love EQ2 so far from what I've seen, I just want to have a chance to be able to actually compete.</p><p>Thanks.</p>

SolomanShort
02-13-2007, 03:00 PM
<p>First of all, welcome to Nagafen <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>You got given 20 plat by a friend! Lucky you... yes, go spend it.</p><p>I have twinked a couple of my characters, and yes, you'll need to do that to compete at low level IF you decide you are going to STAY low level. I have locked and twinked out for a couple of reasons.. Lots of my friends have locked and twinked at the same level and when the people who can only play once a week get on, we can all go play in the same team and have fun. Second reason is that I will come across much more pvp on a low level locked twink... cos there are so many of em around. Since I play on this server to PvP (or talk absolute nonsense to someone, depending on my mood!), low level locking and twinking makes sense.</p><p>As soon as I ding level 10 now, I turn xp off and gain as much aa as I can on my way to the level I wish to try and stop at. This really helps give you the edge sometimes. I have also found out.. doesn't matter how hard ya twink, somebody has twinked harder. You'll still die, but it'll be fun <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Eep, I was gonna write loads more, but the wife just walked in. Ganked!!</p>

Eluzay
02-13-2007, 03:00 PM
ok for starters fable>Legendary>mastercrafted>treasured>handcrafted that is the order of progression, I assume you have handcrafted or noob gear on, they are at least 3 levels of gear above you. The ONLY way it is worth it to spend a plat on a weapon at your level is if you are going to lock. Twinks are most predominantly dominant at T2 and less bad every tier above it. The nice thing is that you can get through the 10-20 levels in a day or two if you get good groups.  T3 is still pretty bad but nek and TS are not bad zones and you can level thorough pretty easy. Then you get to T4 and things start getting better. I would suggest jsut get some decent gear, not uber gear and save your money because you can level through the twinks faster than you would think.

Darthus
02-13-2007, 03:15 PM
<p>Ah, yeah, I'd heard of "locking", but didn't really understand what that meant. So that means you basically say, "I'm going to get a character up to this level, then not level anymore, and get him decked out with the best gear possible"? The point I assume, as you said, is that there are more people at lower level, so more people to kill, and you can fight with all the other twinked people at your level.</p><p>Yeah, I don't have any interest in that, at least immediately. I just want to play the game, progress normally (I've never been above like level 12 in EQ2 so far), and PvP along the way. It sounds like your suggestion then is just to level through the teens quickly and move on, because as you move up in level the twinks become less common.</p><p>That sounds fine to me. I'll just have to grin and bear it when they come after me for the time being I guess. And I'll probably save the money, since using it on crazy equipment at this low level is probably pointless unless I was planning to "lock" as you mentioned.</p>

ckl
02-13-2007, 03:21 PM
<cite>Darthus wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Ah, yeah, I'd heard of "locking", but didn't really understand what that meant. So that means you basically say, "I'm going to get a character up to this level, then not level anymore, and get him decked out with the best gear possible"? The point I assume, as you said, is that there are more people at lower level, so more people to kill, and you can fight with all the other twinked people at your level.</p><p>Yeah, I don't have any interest in that, at least immediately. I just want to play the game, progress normally (I've never been above like level 12 in EQ2 so far), and PvP along the way. It sounds like your suggestion then is just to level through the teens quickly and move on, because as you move up in level the twinks become less common.</p><p>That sounds fine to me. I'll just have to grin and bear it when they come after me for the time being I guess. And I'll probably save the money, since using it on crazy equipment at this low level is probably pointless unless I was planning to "lock" as you mentioned.</p></blockquote><p>If you think Gildorath is bad, he's in mainly mastercrafted and adept 3's as far as I know. My twink very well could one shot you with cold throw if the gleaming strike procs, which it does a lot of the time.</p><p>It'll be the same situation for every tier as you level up. . . gears means more than anything in this game, so unless you like dying a lot and killing very little, I'd suggest you gear up as best you can and get as many AAs as you can throughout the tiers. Level locking is very effective in this regard since you'll still get experience and level, but you'll also be improving your character immeasurably as you do it. </p>

Darthus
02-13-2007, 03:37 PM
<p>Ok, I think I might need some education as to terms then. I thought "Level locking" meant purposely not levelling your character in order to kill people around that level. For example my friend in WoW levelled a character up to level 29 so he could be the highest level in those battlegrounds, then got the very best possible equipment for that level.</p><p>But the way you're describing it, you still get experience and level. So what goes into level locking?</p><p>Also, this is obviously a noob question, but what are AAs? Are those the books that allow you to level up your skills prior to actually getting an upgrade via level?</p><p>Obviously I need a little refresher course. As I said I've never had a class above level 12 before in EQ2. What would you guys suggest I do if I want to PvP as I level up, but I do want to continue levelling and experiencing new content etc?</p><p>Also, how important are your achievement points? I've put a couple in the predator line toward poisons (at this point it's only given me int) purely because I lke the idea of poisons. Am I severely gimping myself doing this, and is there any way to redistribute points later on if I'm screwing up?</p>

CresentBlade
02-13-2007, 03:43 PM
<cite>Darthus wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Ok, I think I might need some education as to terms then. I thought "Level locking" meant purposely not levelling your character in order to kill people around that level. For example my friend in WoW levelled a character up to level 29 so he could be the highest level in those battlegrounds, then got the very best possible equipment for that level.</p><p>But the way you're describing it, you still get experience and level. So what goes into level locking?</p><p>Also, this is obviously a noob question, but what are AAs? Are those the books that allow you to level up your skills prior to actually getting an upgrade via level?</p><p>Obviously I need a little refresher course. As I said I've never had a class above level 12 before in EQ2. What would you guys suggest I do if I want to PvP as I level up, but I do want to continue levelling and experiencing new content etc?</p><p>Also, how important are your achievement points? I've put a couple in the predator line toward poisons (at this point it's only given me int) purely because I lke the idea of poisons. Am I severely gimping myself doing this, and is there any way to redistribute points later on if I'm screwing up?</p></blockquote><p>Everything is important in a fight. Gear - Your level vs theirs - Skill/Spell upgrades - Knowing your class well - And knowing what classes to fight and which ones not to fight.</p><p>FEAR THE FROG!<img src="/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p>

Darthus
02-13-2007, 03:52 PM
<p>Hah, hi Gildorath. I just did a google for "level locking" in order to find out more about it and got a cached thread from January where you're arguing that locking shouldn't be enabled until post 30, so that noobs don't get killed too much and leave.</p><p>Funny, considering I used my fight with you where you jumped me and made me so frustrated I had to post here about it as an example. =)</p><p>But more seriously, can someone give me a brief rundown of what this is all about, or point me to some resources to learn about it? What I've learned so far is that you can turn off Combat XP somehow, thus allowing you to farm certain mobs to get really awesome drop equipment for a certain level, and to do a whole lot more quests than the average person your level, therefore giving you more achievement points to spend on abilities than everyone else.</p><p>Is this the basic concept? Then how do the Adept etc books factor in, and why did the above poster mention that you still level up and get experience while level locking? Or was he just talking about levelling purely from quest XP?</p>

Zexxii
02-13-2007, 03:57 PM
<p>Ahh, the many, many double edged swords of PVP and EQ2.   First and foremost, find a good, supportive guild. (I am going to intentionally ignore that SOE has a whole lot more work to do in evening the playing field between gear, and go with what we have to deal with)</p><p>What are your goals?  If your goal is to get to 70, then don't worry about twinking each level, it's WAY too expensive for someone starting out and not planning on spending any time in any given tier.  Pick up a few pieces and the MOST important spells if you must.  Just get to your 40's as quickly as possible AND get as many AA's as possible.  </p><p>Once you're in your 40's, you will be above the majority of the server's population, numbers wise, but will continue experiencing what you have already experienced all the way up, being ganked left and right by all the twinks. </p><p> In the midst of this, if you are not good at farming for plat, I would suggest getting your harvesting skills up, and pick up a crafting profession.  Twink at 42, your xp slows down about this level, and this will help you make it through the content a little faster, to take you to 62 where you twink again, for good, until the cap is raised.  </p><p>Keep the 20p in the bank, to prepare for these two levels, and/or use it to play the market to make more money, buy low, sell high.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

CresentBlade
02-13-2007, 04:05 PM
<cite>Darthus wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Hah, hi Gildorath. I just did a google for "level locking" in order to find out more about it and got a cached thread from January where you're arguing that locking shouldn't be enabled until post 30, so that noobs don't get killed too much and leave.</p><p>Funny, considering I used my fight with you where you jumped me and made me so frustrated I had to post here about it as an example. =)</p><p>But more seriously, can someone give me a brief rundown of what this is all about, or point me to some resources to learn about it? What I've learned so far is that you can turn off Combat XP somehow, thus allowing you to farm certain mobs to get really awesome drop equipment for a certain level, and to do a whole lot more quests than the average person your level, therefore giving you more achievement points to spend on abilities than everyone else.</p><p>Is this the basic concept? Then how do the Adept etc books factor in, and why did the above poster mention that you still level up and get experience while level locking? Or was he just talking about levelling purely from quest XP?</p></blockquote><p>This is how it works.</p><p>You make a character and get to level 10, save your level 8 quests till you hit 10 so you can milk the AA. Once you hit 10 you disable combat exp and find a way to die alot till you have 50% exp debt. Now once you have this debt you can complete quests and you will get alot of AA and not ding in level to fast. All you have to do is repeat gain debt when your getting to low on it, this slows down your exp towards leveling ALOT. I have currently 9 AA at level 12. Make sure to leave your combat exp off during this time.</p><p>As you mentioned I made posts about this and caught nothing but hell. 75% of the people level locking do so to get easy kills, they can say otherwise but they are full of it. Most people seem to lock at 14-15 so they get their first master2 choice and can farm people level 10-11 etc. I am currently locked at 12 waiting on some friends to join and most of my fights have been level 13+ people like you hehe. If you want tough PvP lock at 12 lol where you will have to learn fast or die alot.</p><p>If this is your only toon then I would suggest harvesting for rares and selling for profit or getting your equipment/skill upgrades made. Gear and skill/spell upgrades make a huge difference, as you can see from when you attacked me and did little to no damage. If you had master crafted and at least adept3 it would of been a really close fight and you may have even won.</p><p>And thank you for posting it proved my whole locking thing about how rough it is on new players.<img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p>

Eluzay
02-13-2007, 04:08 PM
<cite>Zexxii wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Ahh, the many, many double edged swords of PVP and EQ2.   First and foremost, find a good, supportive guild. (I am going to intentionally ignore that SOE has a whole lot more work to do in evening the playing field between gear, and go with what we have to deal with)</p><p>What are your goals?  If your goal is to get to 70, then don't worry about twinking each level, it's WAY too expensive for someone starting out and not planning on spending any time in any given tier.  Pick up a few pieces and the MOST important spells if you must.  Just get to your 40's as quickly as possible AND get as many AA's as possible.  </p><p>Once you're in your 40's, you will be above the majority of the server's population, numbers wise, but will continue experiencing what you have already experienced all the way up, being ganked left and right by all the twinks. </p><p> In the midst of this, if you are not good at farming for plat, I would suggest getting your harvesting skills up, and pick up a crafting profession.  Twink at 42, your xp slows down about this level, and this will help you make it through the content a little faster, to take you to 62 where you twink again, for good, until the cap is raised.  </p><p>Keep the 20p in the bank, to prepare for these two levels, and/or use it to play the market to make more money, buy low, sell high.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote> this is a much more coherent version of what i was saying. spend a plat or two, get some adepts maybe a good piece of armor or two, maybe a weapon, but dont spend that 20 plat at low levels. just for reference, my last teir of spells have cost me upwards of 140 plat and i am not mastered out yet... that money will be best spent 40+ not in low levels.  If you try to compete with the level lockers that have a years worth of experience on you it is going to be painfull. once you are at a tier where you can pull a plat out of a silly instance run then worry about making a lowbie (if that is what you want) to lock. i wish they would remove level locking from the game personally, people would still fight to level slow, but they would be forced out of their uber gear eventually and slightly even the odds.

Darthus
02-13-2007, 04:13 PM
<p>It is quite rough, I don't see how anyone who came onto the PvP servers and didn't REALLY want to stick around would. If you don't know about all this all you would see is that everyone can kill you with little effort and you might think the PvP is just lame and imbalanced in general, then quit. Also I just wanted to say I appreciate everyone being helpful as opposed to just accusing me of whining. By helping me figure this out you're greatly increasing the chance that I'll stick around instead of just getting frustrated and leaving.</p><p>So, in answer to your question Zexxii my goal is to level up to 70 at a leisurely pace, PvPing at the same time. This is my first time through all the content past level 12 for EQ2, so I'd like to experience it as much as I can, but still be able to PvP as much as I can. Perhaps it would benefit me to turn off combat XP and just go around grabbing quests to level? Then I would have a bunch of AA's, be able to experience more of the content and would probably have better equipment. Probably not nearly as good as the hardcore level lockers, but maybe enough to compete.</p><p>I guess the only downside to that is that I will be levelling pretty infrequently meaning the game could get boring in that I'm not getting new skills etc very often. But the idea of just burning through levels 14-42 just to avoid twinkers is a little sad because I'll be missing all the quests/stories/content which is one of the main reasons I'm playing.</p>

CresentBlade
02-13-2007, 04:15 PM
<cite>Eluzay wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zexxii wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Ahh, the many, many double edged swords of PVP and EQ2.   First and foremost, find a good, supportive guild. (I am going to intentionally ignore that SOE has a whole lot more work to do in evening the playing field between gear, and go with what we have to deal with)</p><p>What are your goals?  If your goal is to get to 70, then don't worry about twinking each level, it's WAY too expensive for someone starting out and not planning on spending any time in any given tier.  Pick up a few pieces and the MOST important spells if you must.  Just get to your 40's as quickly as possible AND get as many AA's as possible.  </p><p>Once you're in your 40's, you will be above the majority of the server's population, numbers wise, but will continue experiencing what you have already experienced all the way up, being ganked left and right by all the twinks. </p><p> In the midst of this, if you are not good at farming for plat, I would suggest getting your harvesting skills up, and pick up a crafting profession.  Twink at 42, your xp slows down about this level, and this will help you make it through the content a little faster, to take you to 62 where you twink again, for good, until the cap is raised.  </p><p>Keep the 20p in the bank, to prepare for these two levels, and/or use it to play the market to make more money, buy low, sell high.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote> this is a much more coherent version of what i was saying. spend a plat or two, get some adepts maybe a good piece of armor or two, maybe a weapon, but dont spend that 20 plat at low levels. just for reference, my last teir of spells have cost me upwards of 140 plat and i am not mastered out yet... that money will be best spent 40+ not in low levels.  If you try to compete with the level lockers that have a years worth of experience on you it is going to be painfull. once you are at a tier where you can pull a plat out of a silly instance run then worry about making a lowbie (if that is what you want) to lock. <b><span style="font-size: large">i wish they would remove level locking from the game personally, people would still fight to level slow, but they would be forced out of their uber gear eventually and slightly even the odds. </span></b></blockquote>I agree 100%

ckl
02-13-2007, 04:17 PM
<cite>Eluzay wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Zexxii wrote:</p><p> i wish they would remove level locking from the game personally, people would still fight to level slow, but they would be forced out of their uber gear eventually and slightly even the odds.</p></blockquote><p>More like forced out of the game. If they did that I'd cancel and renew my DAOC accounts. In that game if level 50 pvp is dead--which a lot of the time it is-- I can hop on one of my battlegrounds characters, help take a central keep, and probably find 30+ people to fight at any given time. Or I can switch servers over to the FFA pvp server and get my fill of FFA for a while. </p><p>In short, don't lobby for changes that won't have any effect on you but will ruin the gameplay of others. </p>

ckl
02-13-2007, 04:18 PM
<cite>Darthus wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>If you don't know about all this all you would see is that everyone can kill you with little effort and you might think the PvP is just lame and imbalanced in general, then quit. </p></blockquote><p>I thought the pvp was lame and imbalanced but continued playing for some odd reason. Gotta adapt to it, especially if you play a bard for a main in a game where bards do nothing worthwhile extremely well. </p>

Kurindor_Mythecnea
02-13-2007, 04:21 PM
Dubbuhlyeuwteeyeff mate? How can you expect incenting to perform pragmatically if you're unable to even maintain longevity? What the hell would the point of Fabled be below level 30 where it actually takes a "decent" amount of time to level through such tiers? Not withholding the impact of PvP upon the form in which expedience toward experience would have. Seriously, this suggestion, despite whatever intentions claimed, is one without any proper, sensical retrospective analysis, and all it sounds to be is a level 70 squirming to push more into T7 PvP. TBH, if you even think such is an issue, then it is merely a confliction with population and <i>nothibng</i> more.

Karellen
02-13-2007, 04:28 PM
<cite>Darthus wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Ok, I think I might need some education as to terms then. I thought "Level locking" meant purposely not levelling your character in order to kill people around that level. For example my friend in WoW levelled a character up to level 29 so he could be the highest level in those battlegrounds, then got the very best possible equipment for that level.</p><p>But the way you're describing it, you still get experience and level. So what goes into level locking?</p><p>Also, this is obviously a noob question, but what are AAs? Are those the books that allow you to level up your skills prior to actually getting an upgrade via level?</p><p>Obviously I need a little refresher course. As I said I've never had a class above level 12 before in EQ2. What would you guys suggest I do if I want to PvP as I level up, but I do want to continue levelling and experiencing new content etc?</p><p>Also, how important are your achievement points? I've put a couple in the predator line toward poisons (at this point it's only given me int) purely because I lke the idea of poisons. Am I severely gimping myself doing this, and is there any way to redistribute points later on if I'm screwing up?</p></blockquote><p>Darthus,</p><p> There is no level locking in EQ2, what there is is combat experience turned off. Having turned off your combat experience you still get xp from quests, discoveries collections etc. Which actually is the way to get xp in a meaningfull way and really enjoy the game content. You will be practically level locked only if you dont do any quests.</p><p>AAs are the achievement points, which are very important as you level your character.</p><p> I see no point in spending your platinum for buying gear at lvl 1-12 unless you plan to stay at those levels for long. If you play normally (even with combat xp off) you will go through those levels fast.</p><p>Have in mind that although a part of the difficulties you have are due to much better gear of your opponents another significant part is due your inexperience. At those levels i would just recomend you learn how to stay alive rather than being able to kill your opponents.</p><p> You can change your aas only for few times and this with some cost. So distribute them wisely.</p><p>I hope those points help.</p>

CresentBlade
02-13-2007, 04:35 PM
<cite>Kurindor_Mythecnea wrote:</cite><blockquote>Dubbuhlyeuwteeyeff mate? How can you expect incenting to perform pragmatically if you're unable to even maintain longevity? What the hell would the point of Fabled be below level 30 where it actually takes a "decent" amount of time to level through such tiers? Not withholding the impact of PvP upon the form in which expedience toward experience would have. Seriously, this suggestion, despite whatever intentions claimed, is one without any proper, sensical retrospective analysis, and all it sounds to be is a level 70 squirming to push more into T7 PvP. TBH, if you even think such is an issue, then it is merely a confliction with population and <i>nothibng</i> more. </blockquote><p> [Removed for Content] and here comes the crying from the lockers! OMG I would have to fight people that could beat me EEK! Who cares if he is level 70 there would be alot more PvP through all the teirs if there was no level locking. And even the posts I made about waiting till level 30 to allow locking are met with crying and screaming. You all just want to be able to own people and not worry about them fighting back and wont even accept things like the suggested no locking till 30.</p><p>I am so gonna farm you mr.Sk once I get to your level.<img src="/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

Zexxii
02-13-2007, 04:37 PM
<p>Ok, so if you want leisurely, then make another toon immediately.  A disposable toon if you will.  A toon who's sole purpose to exist is to feed your main.  Don't worry about this toons kvd or pvp record.   Make a harvester/crafter or a solo farmer, however you best make money.  If you decide on a crafter, make a toon you've always wanted to try, so later, when you're bored with your main, you can adventure with your crafter.</p><p> Define leisurely.  Ask yourself, how long do I intend on being in tier 2? tier 3?  Are your goals to compete in PVP, or simply gain AA and experience the PVE side of the game?  If you intend to compete in PVP, twinking is NOT an option.  Finding the balance between the money you have, the money you can make, and the game you desire is the toughest part about starting out.   Keep asking questions.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  (I'm bored at work anyway.)</p><p> Good Luck.</p>

CresentBlade
02-13-2007, 04:43 PM
<cite>Zexxii wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Ok, so if you want leisurely, then make another toon immediately.  A disposable toon if you will.  A toon who's sole purpose to exist is to feed your main.  Don't worry about this toons kvd or pvp record.   Make a harvester/crafter or a solo farmer, however you best make money.  If you decide on a crafter, make a toon you've always wanted to try, so later, when you're bored with your main, you can adventure with your crafter.</p><p> Define leisurely.  Ask yourself, how long do I intend on being in tier 2? tier 3?  Are your goals to compete in PVP, or simply gain AA and experience the PVE side of the game?  If you intend to compete in PVP, twinking is NOT an option.  Finding the balance between the money you have, the money you can make, and the game you desire is the toughest part about starting out.   Keep asking questions.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  (I'm bored at work anyway.)</p><p> Good Luck.</p></blockquote>Good advice.

Kurindor_Mythecnea
02-13-2007, 04:55 PM
<cite>Darthus wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Ok, I think I might need some education as to terms then. I thought "Level locking" meant purposely not levelling your character in order to kill people around that level. For example my friend in WoW levelled a character up to level 29 so he could be the highest level in those battlegrounds, then got the very best possible equipment for that level.</p><p>But the way you're describing it, you still get experience and level. So what goes into level locking?</p><p>Also, this is obviously a noob question, but what are AAs? Are those the books that allow you to level up your skills prior to actually getting an upgrade via level?</p><p>Obviously I need a little refresher course. As I said I've never had a class above level 12 before in EQ2. What would you guys suggest I do if I want to PvP as I level up, but I do want to continue levelling and experiencing new content etc?</p><p>Also, how important are your achievement points? I've put a couple in the predator line toward poisons (at this point it's only given me int) purely because I lke the idea of poisons. Am I severely gimping myself doing this, and is there any way to redistribute points later on if I'm screwing up?</p></blockquote>If you want to progress without a true desire for range-maintained PvP, but are still seeking a relatively tough character build, you can centralize yoh concentration upon AA building as you go. AAs, Achievement Awards as I refer to them, stand to be a fairly broad avenue for featureset expansion. Essentially, it's another line of experience wherein only exclusive tasks and accomplishments contribute to advancement within it. As you acquire these points, you can attribute them to certain subsets beneath this auxiliary mode. For some classes, this can sometimes seem so heightening relative to others and can be said to almost stand as requirement in order to fully explore the true releasing of capacity, whereas with others, it may sit idly by as a backdrop to the classes' general level of fortitude. Some activities to slide upon the agenda, if AA expanding is to become a centrality, can be scrawled as any of the following: satisfy collections,  unravel quests, vanquish named mobs, or navigate areas of exploration. From your tone, I would conject you to not wish any stalled progression, so the good ol' Seliriramble on maximizing AAs may be stowed away for now...I guess.

Darthus
02-13-2007, 04:55 PM
<p>So why would I make another character to farm/craft? Couldn't I do that with my main? Or is the reason just that if I'm out farming mobs or crafting I'll be dying all the time and screwing up my PvP record?</p><p>As far as I can tell, all 3 sides of the game, PvE/questing, PvP and crafting seem cool. Probably in that order. I definitely consider myself a PvPer, but I don't think I'd enjoy just sitting at one level with the sam abilities forever tweaking my guy in order to be able to more efficiently own people. That was part of the reason I didn't get too into Guild Wars. I need compelling gameplay and a story to keep me going and I see PvP as just enhanced player interaction and challenge, not a way to prove myself better (though being able to win every so often or actually have challenging fights is nice <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />).</p>

Darthus
02-13-2007, 04:58 PM
<cite>Kurindor_Mythecnea wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you want to progress without a true desire for range-maintained PvP, but are still seeking a relatively tough character build, you can centralize yoh concentration upon AA building as you go. AAs, Achievement Awards as I refer to them, stand to be a fairly broad avenue for featureset expansion. Essentially, it's another line of experience wherein only exclusive tasks and accomplishments contribute to advancement within it. As you acquire these points, you can attribute them to certain subsets beneath this auxiliary mode. For some classes, this can sometimes seem so expounding relative to others and can be said to almost stand as requirement in order to fully explore the true releasing of capacity, whereas with others, it may sit idly by as a backdrop to the classes' general level of fortitude. Some activities to slide upon the agenda, if AA expanding is to become a centrality, can be scrawled as any of the following: satisfy collections,  unravel quests, vanquish named mobs, or navigate areas of exploration. From your tone, I would conject you to not wish any stalled progression, so the good ol' Seliriramble on maximizing AAs may be stowed away for now...I guess. </blockquote><p> Well, I have noticed I level quite quickly. Seems the easiest way to level is just to group up and grind mobs, at this point doing that I can get a few levels in hours. But that just doesn't seem that satisfying to me. I'm more into the feeling of progression than simply progressing, so maybe I should turn off combat xp, try to max out getting AAs and just go around enjoying quests. That would allow me to be more powerful for my level in general as well (still not as good as someone who's been twinking hardcore), but still allow me to advance and compete in PvP in general.</p>

Badaxe Ba
02-13-2007, 05:03 PM
<p>First off, try everything, this way you will learn for yourself what is good or not.</p><p>Second, don't be afraid to start over with a different character if your first one doesn't play as well as you would like.</p><p>Third,  your gamestyle will be determined by you, so how FAST do you want to level?  How slow?  </p><p>Turning off combat xp doesn't stop leveling, it just slows it down alot.  Each tier has its own defining characteristics.</p>

Kurindor_Mythecnea
02-13-2007, 05:10 PM
<cite>Gildorath wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kurindor_Mythecnea wrote:</cite><blockquote>Dubbuhlyeuwteeyeff mate? How can you expect incenting to perform pragmatically if you're unable to even maintain longevity? What the hell would the point of Fabled be below level 30 where it actually takes a "decent" amount of time to level through such tiers? Not withholding the impact of PvP upon the form in which expedience toward experience would have. Seriously, this suggestion, despite whatever intentions claimed, is one without any proper, sensical retrospective analysis, and all it sounds to be is a level 70 squirming to push more into T7 PvP. TBH, if you even think such is an issue, then it is merely a confliction with population and <i>nothibng</i> more. </blockquote><p> [Removed for Content] and here comes the crying from the lockers! OMG I would have to fight people that could beat me EEK! Who cares if he is level 70 there would be alot more PvP through all the teirs if there was no level locking. And even the posts I made about waiting till level 30 to allow locking are met with crying and screaming. You all just want to be able to own people and not worry about them fighting back and wont even accept things like the suggested no locking till 30.</p><p>I am so gonna farm you mr.Sk once I get to your level.<img src="/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote> LOL. Gildorath, surprise me with just a <i>little</i> less of your nubblery. I mean, come on now, you have spouted the same shpeel of meaningless crap for weeks and months now and you truly rest so soundly upon your assumptions. You think somebody with 3387 kills somehow "avoids" all of the people who can kill him every day he goes out to PK? To what astronomical measure have you truly coerced yourself into such a grand delusion? Your mindset and attempt at a tribute to "logic" (of course, this being inflected from your most assuredly fallacy in approach) are just so fantastically lacking in areas of plausibility. Where the hell did you allocate for this argument the concept that I was making reference to a particular "he" being "70"? [Removed for Content]? Really, how is it that you suppose I to crave my enemy to repress their opposition? Truly, I must have purveyed such an air somewhere...might you cite such for me? Irrespective of any of this...the point is that you <b>failed</b> to comprehend how any handle on control in regard to level stance will affect the usability of the implemented itemizing within the game. If you honestly call for me to oblige you with any such privilege of redundancy, you ought now perceive such as a deft misstep (In other words, confer to the initially quoted for elucidation with such a note).

Kurindor_Mythecnea
02-13-2007, 05:18 PM
<cite>Darthus wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>So why would I make another character to farm/craft? Couldn't I do that with my main? Or is the reason just that if I'm out farming mobs or crafting I'll be dying all the time and screwing up my PvP record?</p><p>As far as I can tell, all 3 sides of the game, PvE/questing, PvP and crafting seem cool. Probably in that order. I definitely consider myself a PvPer, but I don't think I'd enjoy just sitting at one level with the sam abilities forever tweaking my guy in order to be able to more efficiently own people. That was part of the reason I didn't get too into Guild Wars. I need compelling gameplay and a story to keep me going and I see PvP as just enhanced player interaction and challenge, not a way to prove myself better (though being able to win every so often or actually have challenging fights is nice <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />).</p></blockquote> Well, unless you mind giving up a few location discoveries (for AA XP), a good thing to do if you're building a new main on Nagafen is to harvest and tradeskill below level 10. That way, you'll outfit your coffers with a breadth enabling you to keep yourself afoot without having to worry about needless exposure just for the sake of monetary gain. It's what I did, and I've supplied myself with a lot of Fabled, two toons with Nightmares and enough status items for three, Masters for me and my alts, quite a few guild levels (status items <3 ), and excess to roll around in my bank. If you have an aside from a potentiality for PvP intrusion, it may be best to take it as it could soften up your experience to a higher level of enjoyment. <cite>Darthus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kurindor_Mythecnea wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you want to progress without a true desire for range-maintained PvP, but are still seeking a relatively tough character build, you can centralize yoh concentration upon AA building as you go. AAs, Achievement Awards as I refer to them, stand to be a fairly broad avenue for featureset expansion. Essentially, it's another line of experience wherein only exclusive tasks and accomplishments contribute to advancement within it. As you acquire these points, you can attribute them to certain subsets beneath this auxiliary mode. For some classes, this can sometimes seem so expounding relative to others and can be said to almost stand as requirement in order to fully explore the true releasing of capacity, whereas with others, it may sit idly by as a backdrop to the classes' general level of fortitude. Some activities to slide upon the agenda, if AA expanding is to become a centrality, can be scrawled as any of the following: satisfy collections,  unravel quests, vanquish named mobs, or navigate areas of exploration. From your tone, I would conject you to not wish any stalled progression, so the good ol' Seliriramble on maximizing AAs may be stowed away for now...I guess. </blockquote><p> Well, I have noticed I level quite quickly. Seems the easiest way to level is just to group up and grind mobs, at this point doing that I can get a few levels in hours. But that just doesn't seem that satisfying to me. I'm more into the feeling of progression than simply progressing, so maybe I should turn off combat xp, try to max out getting AAs and just go around enjoying quests. That would allow me to be more powerful for my level in general as well (still not as good as someone who's been twinking hardcore), but still allow me to advance and compete in PvP in general.</p></blockquote><img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Eluzay
02-13-2007, 05:20 PM
<cite>cklab wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Eluzay wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Zexxii wrote:</p><p> i wish they would remove level locking from the game personally, people would still fight to level slow, but they would be forced out of their uber gear eventually and slightly even the odds.</p></blockquote><p>More like forced out of the game. If they did that I'd cancel and renew my DAOC accounts. In that game if level 50 pvp is dead--which a lot of the time it is-- I can hop on one of my battlegrounds characters, help take a central keep, and probably find 30+ people to fight at any given time. Or I can switch servers over to the FFA pvp server and get my fill of FFA for a while. </p><p>In short, don't lobby for changes that won't have any effect on you but will ruin the gameplay of others. </p></blockquote>the number of people that WOULDNT quit because of the gankage would way offset the number that quit because they like low tier easy mode. (once you fable out in T7 it is easy mode too, but at least it took some serious work)

Titan-X
02-13-2007, 05:24 PM
<p>In reference to the "you just want to be able to own people" comment: </p><p>I put my time in leveling my main to find that high level PvP while in existence is few and far between. So like anyone with half a brain would do, I go where the action is. I level up a character to a level where the population is higher and the action is greater. I then spend my hard earned and gathered pp on this character to give him "YES" a advantage because I have put in my game time and now would like to see the results of my efforts. Do I kill everyone that comes along, well with a game dynamic that EQII has no, because I get ganked by every decently geared (group) that comes along and I have the poor luck of running smack dab into. Can I avoid that? No, but I can play the game strategically (as intended) and get my kills in on the way. Is it fair? Guess what life isn't why do you think they would design a game that would be? Did I have to struggle to get my character out of the prime PvP levels? Yes, and that is just that. Should SOE do anything about twinking? Why don't we start with the bigger issues like botting, node chodes, and using bugs in the game to have a unfair advantage because twinking is a advantage that even you, Yes you can obtain. </p>

Zexxii
02-13-2007, 05:35 PM
<p>You will absolutely level quickly at the lower tiers.  The only way to slow it, is to turn off xp and quest for it.  This will help you build AA's.  The tough part, is determining which quests give you the most AA.  Hint:  Quests in Gfay give the most, they were designed for it, but that leaves you outnumbered in "Good"land, double edged sword for an assasin.</p><p> The point of the disposable toon, is to protect your PVP record as much as possible, being an assassin, you may or may not have to do it, totally up to you, does your assasin solo well enough to farm/harvest?  Ask yourself, do I care a little or a lot about my PVP record? (/pvp in game) If it's a little, never mind the other toon, if it's a lot, the other toon is definitely a must.</p>

Kurindor_Mythecnea
02-13-2007, 05:36 PM
For those of you who biitch about the uber twinks, know that the disparity present becomes so miniscule when actual in-game relations seep forth into the equation. Every day when PvPing, some Qey will communicate to another where I am and reinforcements will come. Guess of what form and factor these are? Top of my PvP-range form and factor. Usually (okay, just about 97.5% of the time) in numbers. There is nothing of equity beyond the current state. If you aren't willing to commit and dedicate the time to build a strong character, then when you get your bum kicked by someone who has -- you don't whine -- you understand. I can compete, I can oppose someone of such caliber were I to do the same thing. This is the endeavour igniting progression and full exploration. Every day I field some questions about my build and any other particular characteristics insofar. To be honest, what it seems is that everyone either simply blockades the concept due to preconceptions or believes it to be so horridly impassable that the effort required to process any meaningful furthering is without any committable worth. You know what? Maybe these are the ones just lacking the motivation or spur for instigating any such "leap" to such an endeavor. Oh yeah, and Darthus, if you are looking for any extension you can grasp in order to embellish your AA build, know that suiciding until you've reached 50% (having any particular amount will mitigate any incoming gain, you just need to have it when doing AA modifying tasks if they provide Adventurer XP as well) Adventurer experience debt will offer you this.

ckl
02-13-2007, 05:39 PM
<cite>Kurindor_Mythecnea wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gildorath wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kurindor_Mythecnea wrote:</cite><blockquote>Dubbuhlyeuwteeyeff mate? How can you expect incenting to perform pragmatically if you're unable to even maintain longevity? What the hell would the point of Fabled be below level 30 where it actually takes a "decent" amount of time to level through such tiers? Not withholding the impact of PvP upon the form in which expedience toward experience would have. Seriously, this suggestion, despite whatever intentions claimed, is one without any proper, sensical retrospective analysis, and all it sounds to be is a level 70 squirming to push more into T7 PvP. TBH, if you even think such is an issue, then it is merely a confliction with population and <i>nothibng</i> more. </blockquote><p> [Removed for Content] and here comes the crying from the lockers! OMG I would have to fight people that could beat me EEK! Who cares if he is level 70 there would be alot more PvP through all the teirs if there was no level locking. And even the posts I made about waiting till level 30 to allow locking are met with crying and screaming. You all just want to be able to own people and not worry about them fighting back and wont even accept things like the suggested no locking till 30.</p><p>I am so gonna farm you mr.Sk once I get to your level.<img src="/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote> LOL. Gildorath, surprise me with just a <i>little</i> less of your nubblery. I mean, come on now, you have spouted the same shpeel of meaningless crap for weeks and months now and you truly rest so soundly upon your assumptions. You think somebody with 3387 kills somehow "avoids" all of the people who can kill him every day he goes out to PK? To what astronomical measure have you truly coerced yourself into such a grand delusion? Your mindset and attempt at a tribute to "logic" (of course, this being inflected from your most assuredly fallacy in approach) are just so fantastically lacking in areas of plausibility. Where the hell did you allocate for this argument the concept that I was making reference to a particular "he" being "70"? <span style="color: #0099ff">How about this: ". . .all it sounds to be is a level 70 squirming to push more into T7 PvP." You typed that, he says that's irrelevant, you bust out your <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0425176401/ref=sip_pdp_dp_1/002-8005612-5990461" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">writing reference</a> and try ripping him a new one? Nice.</span>[I cannot control my vocabulary]? Really, how is it that you suppose I to crave my enemy to repress their opposition? Truly, I must have purveyed such an air somewhere...might you cite such for me? Irrespective of any of this...the point is that you <b>failed</b> to comprehend how any handle on control in regard to level stance will affect the usability of the implemented itemizing within the game. If you honestly call for me to oblige you with any such privilege of redundancy, you ought now perceive such as a deft misstep (In other words, confer to the initially quoted for elucidation with such a note). </blockquote><p>There is much to be said for brevity. You, however, have a diarrhea of the keyboard, which is apparent in your verbose posts reminiscent of Immanuel Kant but lacking his substance.</p><p>All you have to do is say, "I think I'm smart, I read your reply and I think you're an idiot." Please, do that from now on and save us all the headache of having to read through your posts trying to glean any meaning out of them.</p><p>That said, I agree with you on the twinking thing. </p>

Titan-X
02-13-2007, 05:43 PM
<cite>Kurindor_Mythecnea wrote:</cite><blockquote>For those of you who biitch about the uber twinks, know that the disparity present becomes so miniscule when actual in-game relations seep forth into the equation. Every day when PvPing, some Qey will communicate to another where I am and reinforcements will come. Guess of what form and factor these are? Top of my PvP-range form and factor. Usually (okay, just about 97.5% of the time) in numbers. There is nothing of equity beyond the current state. If you aren't willing to commit and dedicate the time to build a strong character, then when you get your bum kicked by someone who has -- you don't whine -- you understand. I can compete, I can oppose someone of such caliber were I to do the same thing. This is the endeavour igniting progression and full exploration. Every day I field some questions about my build and any other particular characteristics insofar. To be honest, what it seems is that everyone either simply blockades the concept due to preconceptions or believes it to be so horridly impassable that the effort required to process any meaningful furthering is without any committable worth. You know what? Maybe these are the ones just lacking the motivation or spur for instigating any such "leap" to such an endeavor. Oh yeah, and Darthus, if you are looking for any extension you can grasp in order to embellish your AA build, know that suiciding until you've reached 50% (having any particular amount will mitigate any incoming gain, you just need to have it when doing AA modifying tasks if they provide Adventurer XP as well) Adventurer experience debt will offer you this. </blockquote><p>Translation to laymen:  Stop crying play the game and your time will come! </p>

Kurindor_Mythecnea
02-13-2007, 05:47 PM
<cite>cklab wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kurindor_Mythecnea wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gildorath wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kurindor_Mythecnea wrote:</cite><blockquote>Dubbuhlyeuwteeyeff mate? How can you expect incenting to perform pragmatically if you're unable to even maintain longevity? What the hell would the point of Fabled be below level 30 where it actually takes a "decent" amount of time to level through such tiers? Not withholding the impact of PvP upon the form in which expedience toward experience would have. Seriously, this suggestion, despite whatever intentions claimed, is one without any proper, sensical retrospective analysis, and all it sounds to be is a level 70 squirming to push more into T7 PvP. TBH, if you even think such is an issue, then it is merely a confliction with population and <i>nothibng</i> more. </blockquote><p> [Removed for Content] and here comes the crying from the lockers! OMG I would have to fight people that could beat me EEK! Who cares if he is level 70 there would be alot more PvP through all the teirs if there was no level locking. And even the posts I made about waiting till level 30 to allow locking are met with crying and screaming. You all just want to be able to own people and not worry about them fighting back and wont even accept things like the suggested no locking till 30.</p><p>I am so gonna farm you mr.Sk once I get to your level.<img src="/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote> LOL. Gildorath, surprise me with just a <i>little</i> less of your nubblery. I mean, come on now, you have spouted the same shpeel of meaningless crap for weeks and months now and you truly rest so soundly upon your assumptions. You think somebody with 3387 kills somehow "avoids" all of the people who can kill him every day he goes out to PK? To what astronomical measure have you truly coerced yourself into such a grand delusion? Your mindset and attempt at a tribute to "logic" (of course, this being inflected from your most assuredly fallacy in approach) are just so fantastically lacking in areas of plausibility. Where the hell did you allocate for this argument the concept that I was making reference to a particular "he" being "70"? <span style="color: #0099ff">How about this: ". . .all it sounds to be is a level 70 squirming to push more into T7 PvP." You typed that, he says that's irrelevant, you bust out your <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0425176401/ref=sip_pdp_dp_1/002-8005612-5990461" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">writing reference</a> and try ripping him a new one? Nice.</span>[I cannot control my vocabulary]? Really, how is it that you suppose I to crave my enemy to repress their opposition? Truly, I must have purveyed such an air somewhere...might you cite such for me? Irrespective of any of this...the point is that you <b>failed</b> to comprehend how any handle on control in regard to level stance will affect the usability of the implemented itemizing within the game. If you honestly call for me to oblige you with any such privilege of redundancy, you ought now perceive such as a deft misstep (In other words, confer to the initially quoted for elucidation with such a note). </blockquote><p>There is much to be said for brevity. You, however, have a diarrhea of the keyboard, which is apparent in your verbose posts reminiscent of Immanuel Kant but lacking his substance.</p><p>All you have to do is say, "I think I'm smart, I read your reply and I think you're an idiot." Please, do that from now on and save us all the headache of having to read through your posts trying to glean any meaning out of them.</p><p>That said, I agree with you on the twinking thing. </p></blockquote>This was a reference to the outcropping of such an upbringing (his particular argument) with such a fine degree of frequency; it wasn't an actual comment referring to Gildorath -- I don't know what characters he has. Merely my notion that it stems from T7 sympathizers or just generally those seeking more of an injection into PvP of that top-tier range.

CresentBlade
02-13-2007, 06:13 PM
<cite>Kurindor_Mythecnea wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gildorath wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kurindor_Mythecnea wrote:</cite><blockquote>Dubbuhlyeuwteeyeff mate? How can you expect incenting to perform pragmatically if you're unable to even maintain longevity? What the hell would the point of Fabled be below level 30 where it actually takes a "decent" amount of time to level through such tiers? Not withholding the impact of PvP upon the form in which expedience toward experience would have. Seriously, this suggestion, despite whatever intentions claimed, is one without any proper, sensical retrospective analysis, and all it sounds to be is a level 70 squirming to push more into T7 PvP. TBH, if you even think such is an issue, then it is merely a confliction with population and <i>nothibng</i> more. </blockquote><p> [Removed for Content] and here comes the crying from the lockers! OMG I would have to fight people that could beat me EEK! Who cares if he is level 70 there would be alot more PvP through all the teirs if there was no level locking. And even the posts I made about waiting till level 30 to allow locking are met with crying and screaming. You all just want to be able to own people and not worry about them fighting back and wont even accept things like the suggested no locking till 30.</p><p>I am so gonna farm you mr.Sk once I get to your level.<img src="/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote> LOL. Gildorath, surprise me with just a <i>little</i> less of your nubblery. I mean, come on now, you have spouted the same shpeel of meaningless crap for weeks and months now and you truly rest so soundly upon your assumptions. You think somebody with 3387 kills somehow "avoids" all of the people who can kill him every day he goes out to PK? To what astronomical measure have you truly coerced yourself into such a grand delusion? Your mindset and attempt at a tribute to "logic" (of course, this being inflected from your most assuredly fallacy in approach) are just so fantastically lacking in areas of plausibility. Where the hell did you allocate for this argument the concept that I was making reference to a particular "he" being "70"? [I cannot control my vocabulary]? Really, how is it that you suppose I to crave my enemy to repress their opposition? Truly, I must have purveyed such an air somewhere...might you cite such for me? Irrespective of any of this...the point is that you <b>failed</b> to comprehend how any handle on control in regard to level stance will affect the usability of the implemented itemizing within the game. If you honestly call for me to oblige you with any such privilege of redundancy, you ought now perceive such as a deft misstep (In other words, confer to the initially quoted for elucidation with such a note). </blockquote>And how many wins did you get from HT? [Removed for Content] your so going down your my new Arch Enemy!<img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Darthus
02-13-2007, 08:19 PM
Well... cool. =) Since you all have been so helpful, can anyone recommend a guild to join on Nagafen that would be helpful for all this?

Brigh
02-13-2007, 09:25 PM
Not going to read through 3 pages to see if you mentioned what level arts you have. If you are using ap1 given to you automatically, of course you will suck. It is possible he had an item, perhaps (don't know what froglocks get) a newbie froglock mentor quest item (Erudites get a ward bracelet). More info is needed on the OP.

Darthus
02-13-2007, 10:52 PM
=) Thanks Brigh, but we figured it out.

Mechizedek
02-16-2007, 08:31 AM
   Twinks should not be allowed on rp servers,a.k.a. Venakor.There is no role playing in a twink,just rule lawering.There are many other things creative developers could put into rp pvp servers that other servers wouldn't need,but I would like to see.Like pvp quests,antonican/lucanic language quests,and such.

Greenion
02-16-2007, 09:51 AM
<p><span style="color: #339900">so...on venekor we arent allowed to try and get good gear, then better gear?</span></p><p><span style="color: #339900">that doesnt make much sense to me.</span></p><p><span style="color: #339900">i dont know if its been mentioned...</span></p><p><span style="color: #339900">harvest, craft...then...harvest some more, and then craft...glx.</span></p>

Eluzay
02-16-2007, 11:59 AM
<cite>Kurindor_Mythecnea wrote:</cite><blockquote>For those of you who biitch about the uber twinks, know that the disparity present becomes so miniscule when actual in-game relations seep forth into the equation. Every day when PvPing, some Qey will communicate to another where I am and reinforcements will come. Guess of what form and factor these are? Top of my PvP-range form and factor. Usually (okay, just about 97.5% of the time) in numbers. There is nothing of equity beyond the current state. <span style="font-size: large">If you aren't willing to commit and dedicate the time</span> to build a strong character, then when you get your bum kicked by someone who has -- you don't whine -- you understand. I can compete, I can oppose someone of such caliber were I to do the same thing. This is the endeavour igniting progression and full exploration. Every day I field some questions about my build and any other particular characteristics insofar. To be honest, what it seems is that everyone either simply blockades the concept due to preconceptions or believes it to be so horridly impassable that the effort required to process any meaningful furthering is without any committable worth. You know what? Maybe these are the ones just lacking the motivation or spur for instigating any such "leap" to such an endeavor. Oh yeah, and Darthus, if you are looking for any extension you can grasp in order to embellish your AA build, know that suiciding until you've reached 50% (having any particular amount will mitigate any incoming gain, you just need to have it when doing AA modifying tasks if they provide Adventurer XP as well) Adventurer experience debt will offer you this. </blockquote>the thing is that getting to 22 take almost no time at all, i could do it in one day, so twinking outa 22 and talking about commintment and dedicated time is in my opinion absolutely silly. then we can go on to the gear, it is easy to obtain (relative to T7 gear mind you) then we can talk about the gap in gear, T7 mastercrafted has good resists and good stats and good mit, T3 gear they just add more stats to vs treasured/legendary/fabled which adds reisst on top .... that is why people find low level twinking to be a bit distastefull, it is pretty much an unfair advantage.

Killque
02-16-2007, 12:20 PM
<cite>cklab wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darthus wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>If you don't know about all this all you would see is that everyone can kill you with little effort and you might think the PvP is just lame and imbalanced in general, then quit. </p></blockquote><p>I thought the pvp was lame and imbalanced but continued playing for some odd reason. Gotta adapt to it, especially if you play a bard for a main in a game where bards do nothing worthwhile extremely well. </p></blockquote><p>Excuse me? Ahemmm.</p><p><a href="http://files.filefront.com/6732907" target="_blank" rel="nofollow"> </a><a href="http://files.filefront.com/6732907" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://files.filefront.com/6732907</a> </p>

Kurindor_Mythecnea
02-16-2007, 12:25 PM
<cite>Eluzay wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kurindor_Mythecnea wrote:</cite><blockquote>For those of you who biitch about the uber twinks, know that the disparity present becomes so miniscule when actual in-game relations seep forth into the equation. Every day when PvPing, some Qey will communicate to another where I am and reinforcements will come. Guess of what form and factor these are? Top of my PvP-range form and factor. Usually (okay, just about 97.5% of the time) in numbers. There is nothing of equity beyond the current state. <span style="font-size: large">If you aren't willing to commit and dedicate the time</span> to build a strong character, then when you get your bum kicked by someone who has -- you don't whine -- you understand. I can compete, I can oppose someone of such caliber were I to do the same thing. This is the endeavour igniting progression and full exploration. Every day I field some questions about my build and any other particular characteristics insofar. To be honest, what it seems is that everyone either simply blockades the concept due to preconceptions or believes it to be so horridly impassable that the effort required to process any meaningful furthering is without any committable worth. You know what? Maybe these are the ones just lacking the motivation or spur for instigating any such "leap" to such an endeavor. Oh yeah, and Darthus, if you are looking for any extension you can grasp in order to embellish your AA build, know that suiciding until you've reached 50% (having any particular amount will mitigate any incoming gain, you just need to have it when doing AA modifying tasks if they provide Adventurer XP as well) Adventurer experience debt will offer you this. </blockquote>the thing is that getting to 22 take almost no time at all, i could do it in one day, so twinking outa 22 and talking about commintment and dedicated time is in my opinion absolutely silly. then we can go on to the gear, it is easy to obtain (relative to T7 gear mind you) then we can talk about the gap in gear, T7 mastercrafted has good resists and good stats and good mit, T3 gear they just add more stats to vs treasured/legendary/fabled which adds reisst on top .... that is why people find low level twinking to be a bit distastefull, it is pretty much an unfair advantage. </blockquote>LOL. Goes to show you the level of understanding you think you "have" beneath your cognizance. Too bad such a "synthesis" would truly evince for you the contrary. Honestly, try AAing out to 22 with the amount of AAs I have or my friend has reached (without CCGNT) -- then I can come laugh at you.

Bozidar
02-16-2007, 12:39 PM
<cite>Eluzay wrote:</cite><blockquote>ok for starters fable>Legendary>mastercrafted>treasured>handcrafted that is the order of progression, I assume you have handcrafted or noob gear on, they are at least 3 levels of gear above you. </blockquote><p>Ok, this isn't entirely true.  Legendary stuff from the levels early in a tier (10,11,20,21,30.31) is often not as good as master crafted at the 2 level (12,22,32,ect).  Fabled can also sometimes not be as good as MC or legendary a few levels higher than it.  Examine ALL of your gear. Don't assume that just because something's fabled that it's worth having.  It's not always.  There is a lot of fabled gear out there that just isn't worth it to get it, legendary as well.  Master crafted is the only gear that provides a realiable balance of stats, mitigation, and resists from tier to tier.</p><p>Everything else, examine it and compare it to what else you might be able to get.  Yes, generally fabled is best.  Legendary is on part with MC gear, but higher level usually wins out between the two.  There is even some really nice treasured gear that if you get it at the back end of a tier (15-21, 25,31, ect) it can be really great.</p><p>Don't rely on the gear title of fabled legendary or whatever.. examine it and learn what your options are.</p><p>But if you're wearing anything less than what's provided by Mastercrafted (because sometimes treasured provides more), then you're a n00birito with extra salsa.. Master crafted is FREE, there's no reason you shouldn't have at least that.</p>

Badaxe Ba
02-16-2007, 01:09 PM
<p>Bozidar wrote</p><hr /><p>But if you're wearing anything less than what's provided by Mastercrafted (because sometimes treasured provides more), then you're a n00birito with extra salsa.. Master crafted is <strike>FREE</strike><b> easier to obtain by harvesting yourself</b>,and possible to craft yourself in t1-t2 if you choose outfitter, there's no reason you shouldn't have at least that.</p><hr /><p>FIXED.</p>

Greenion
02-16-2007, 01:37 PM
<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Eluzay wrote:</cite><blockquote>ok for starters fable>Legendary>mastercrafted>treasured>handcrafted that is the order of progression, I assume you have handcrafted or noob gear on, they are at least 3 levels of gear above you. </blockquote><p>Ok, this isn't entirely true.  Legendary stuff from the levels early in a tier (10,11,20,21,30.31) is often not as good as master crafted at the 2 level (12,22,32,ect).  Fabled can also sometimes not be as good as MC or legendary a few levels higher than it.  Examine ALL of your gear. Don't assume that just because something's fabled that it's worth having.  It's not always.  There is a lot of fabled gear out there that just isn't worth it to get it, legendary as well.  Master crafted is the only gear that provides a realiable balance of stats, mitigation, and resists from tier to tier.</p><p>Everything else, examine it and compare it to what else you might be able to get.  Yes, generally fabled is best.  Legendary is on part with MC gear, but higher level usually wins out between the two.  There is even some really nice treasured gear that if you get it at the back end of a tier (15-21, 25,31, ect) it can be really great.</p><p>Don't rely on the gear title of fabled legendary or whatever.. examine it and learn what your options are.</p><p>But if you're wearing anything less than what's provided by Mastercrafted (because sometimes treasured provides more), then you're a n00birito with extra salsa.. Master crafted is FREE, there's no reason you shouldn't have at least that.</p></blockquote><p> <span style="color: #339900">in short....harvest...then harvest more...then harvest even more...then craft...then harvest more...etcz.</span></p><p><span style="color: #339900">edit> in T1 a single crafter can make any craftable item, in T2 you will need 3 crafters to make every craftable item...in T3 and above you will need nine crafters to make every craftable item (i think its nine, im pretty sure) good thing i have ten slots.</span></p>

Bozidar
02-16-2007, 02:37 PM
Badaxe Bart wrote: <blockquote><p>Bozidar wrote</p><hr /><p>But if you're wearing anything less than what's provided by Mastercrafted (because sometimes treasured provides more), then you're a n00birito with extra salsa.. Master crafted is <strike>FREE</strike><b> easier to obtain by harvesting yourself</b>,and possible to craft yourself in t1-t2 if you choose outfitter, there's no reason you shouldn't have at least that.</p><hr /><p>FIXED.</p></blockquote><p> Wasn't broken.  Crafting only costs time and fuel.. it's essentially free.  Anyone with two coppers to rub together can harvest, sell raws to earn some gold for fuel, and then craft away.  As greeny said, it takes 3 crafters for everything in T2, and 9 beyond that.  Yeah, if you're very lonely and have zero friends, you need to maintain 9 crafters (if you have 9 slots), but i don't think most of us are in that situation.</p><p>In PvP Mastercrafted gear is the minimum standard stats you should be rolling out with if you want to compete.  Oh, unless you roll out in a raid.. and you're a punk if you do <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

Eybietie
02-16-2007, 02:44 PM
he only bashed you that hard because he is a froglok. how about you lvl lock at 16 and rip his [Removed for Content] off with your twinked char? ^^

Bozidar
02-16-2007, 02:52 PM
<cite>Eybietie wrote:</cite><blockquote>he only bashed you that hard because he is a froglok. how about you lvl lock at 16 and rip his [Removed for Content] off with your twinked char? ^^</blockquote> Because you can't pvp across servers? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Badaxe Ba
02-16-2007, 05:07 PM
<p>Free means no cost, period.</p><p>harvesting costs........time, not money but still not free.</p><p>common raws won't earn you quick gold in t1, rarely in t2.</p><p>rares, you will need for your equipment/armor/jewelry/spells first, before you can sell for money.</p><p>If it cost 2 coppers, it ain't free.</p><p>/rerail</p><p>Put in some time and effort, and it will pay off.  Don't ever expect free, cuz you will always be disappointed.  You will also gain the satisfaction of having earned your way.  No small thing at all, and its definitely not free.</p>

Bozidar
02-16-2007, 05:27 PM
Badaxe Bart wrote: <blockquote><p>Free means no cost, period.</p><p>harvesting costs........time, not money but still not free.</p><p>common raws won't earn you quick gold in t1, rarely in t2.</p><p>rares, you will need for your equipment/armor/jewelry/spells first, before you can sell for money.</p><p>If it cost 2 coppers, it ain't free.</p><p>/rerail</p><p>Put in some time and effort, and it will pay off.  Don't ever expect free, cuz you will always be disappointed.  You will also gain the satisfaction of having earned your way.  No small thing at all, and its definitely not free.</p></blockquote><p> Mastercrafted gear is essentially free.  And yes, raws can earn you quick gold in T1 and T2.</p>

ckl
02-16-2007, 05:38 PM
<cite>Killque wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>cklab wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darthus wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>If you don't know about all this all you would see is that everyone can kill you with little effort and you might think the PvP is just lame and imbalanced in general, then quit. </p></blockquote><p>I thought the pvp was lame and imbalanced but continued playing for some odd reason. Gotta adapt to it, especially if you play a bard for a main in a game where bards do nothing worthwhile extremely well. </p></blockquote><p>Excuse me? Ahemmm.</p><p><a href="http://files.filefront.com/6732907" target="_blank" rel="nofollow"> </a><a href="http://files.filefront.com/6732907" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://files.filefront.com/6732907</a> </p></blockquote><p>Yeah, I saw your video. You admitted to being fully mastered out and having mostly fabled gear. Try taking out yellows or whites in handcrafted gear and you'll find how lame and imbalanced the game actually is. The fact is any class with fabled and all masters could kill a few untitled orange or reds in junk gear and probably do an immeasurably better job of it. So tell me, how is it bards are at all special or excel at anything? </p>

kreepr
02-16-2007, 06:01 PM
<cite>cklab wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Killque wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>cklab wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darthus wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>If you don't know about all this all you would see is that everyone can kill you with little effort and you might think the PvP is just lame and imbalanced in general, then quit. </p></blockquote><p>I thought the pvp was lame and imbalanced but continued playing for some odd reason. Gotta adapt to it, especially if you play a bard for a main in a game where bards do nothing worthwhile extremely well. </p></blockquote><p>Excuse me? Ahemmm.</p><p><a href="http://files.filefront.com/6732907" target="_blank" rel="nofollow"> </a><a href="http://files.filefront.com/6732907" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://files.filefront.com/6732907</a> </p></blockquote><p>Yeah, I saw your video. You admitted to being fully mastered out and having mostly fabled gear. Try taking out yellows or whites in handcrafted gear and you'll find how lame and imbalanced the game actually is. The fact is any class with fabled and all masters could kill a few untitled orange or reds in junk gear and probably do an immeasurably better job of it. So tell me, how is it bards are at all special or excel at anything? </p></blockquote><span style="color: #ff0000">Yeah I have no trouble takeing out people solo have handed a few reds there arses to titled or not and yeah I have a mix between mastercraft to fabled gear and 96% master. Groups I can handle up to about 2 pc's solo, orange or yellow cons. It strats to get tricky there as classes start to play a roll at that point but there are execptions that will hand me my rear in a heart beat 1vs1. Thats hitting other twinks with titles in there as well so they are far from worthless. </span>

Killque
02-16-2007, 06:58 PM
<cite>cklab wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Killque wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>cklab wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darthus wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>If you don't know about all this all you would see is that everyone can kill you with little effort and you might think the PvP is just lame and imbalanced in general, then quit. </p></blockquote><p>I thought the pvp was lame and imbalanced but continued playing for some odd reason. Gotta adapt to it, especially if you play a bard for a main in a game where bards do nothing worthwhile extremely well. </p></blockquote><p>Excuse me? Ahemmm.</p><p><a href="http://files.filefront.com/6732907" target="_blank" rel="nofollow"> </a><a href="http://files.filefront.com/6732907" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://files.filefront.com/6732907</a> </p></blockquote><p>Yeah, I saw your video. You admitted to being fully mastered out and having mostly fabled gear. Try taking out yellows or whites in handcrafted gear and you'll find how lame and imbalanced the game actually is. The fact is any class with fabled and all masters could kill a few untitled orange or reds in junk gear and probably do an immeasurably better job of it. So tell me, how is it bards are at all special or excel at anything? </p></blockquote>I will deflect your personalized attack on my class and ask that we trend this conversation more towards the OP's subject and not detrail it with my class is better than your class crap. Or in your blanket statement case, Bards "Do nothing extremely well".

DankShasta
02-17-2007, 04:26 AM
<cite>cklab wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Eluzay wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Zexxii wrote:</p><p> i wish they would remove level locking from the game personally, people would still fight to level slow, but they would be forced out of their uber gear eventually and slightly even the odds.</p></blockquote><p>More like forced out of the game. If they did that I'd cancel and renew my DAOC accounts. In that game if level 50 pvp is dead--which a lot of the time it is-- I can hop on one of my battlegrounds characters, help take a central keep, and probably find 30+ people to fight at any given time. Or I can switch servers over to the FFA pvp server and get my fill of FFA for a while. </p><p>In short, don't lobby for changes that won't have any effect on you but will ruin the gameplay of others. </p></blockquote><p>    I agree! If most of the server has twibnks ( and we do) why would they ever changeit? Also Zexxi, how long did your guild lvl lock?It was months I am pretty sure? Your a piece of work! Oh yeah, and you want the gear to be evened out?This is EQ, it has ALWAYS been a gear based game. The more time you have on your toon, the better he should be, right? Maybe you should play something like Unreal Tournament, where everybody has the same gear?</p><p> Pretty funny to read a post from a guild leader  who made her whole guild lock at mid  lvls for MONTHS, got rolled too hard by some other BETTER twinks, and now you cry about it?? Thats too funny! So why did Killshot lock for months, and months?</p><p>   Yeah Zexxii liked the lvled locked twinks when she did it, but she leveled and now it should be taken  out of the game!  Everybody knows Killshot was a lock guild too, that's whats really funny! Who are you kidding Nadione? </p>

Fluffyhairball
02-17-2007, 09:01 AM
<p><span style="font-size: small; font-family: arial black,avant garde">I just wanna say that pvp is FUN at teens lots of action and after next update (no zoning or ooc healing) it will be more fun just hopping that sk would get there HT  nerfed a bit =) its bit to nasty for teens to get hit by 25 % time it one shots me. And im hoping we get more twinks to teen lvls. </span></p><p>And cuold someone tell me how can i get my toons stats at the bottom of my post?</p>

DankShasta
02-17-2007, 11:16 AM
<cite>Kurindor_Mythecnea wrote:</cite><blockquote>For those of you who biitch about the uber twinks, know that the disparity present becomes so miniscule when actual in-game relations seep forth into the equation. Every day when PvPing, some Qey will communicate to another where I am and reinforcements will come. Guess of what form and factor these are? Top of my PvP-range form and factor. Usually (okay, just about 97.5% of the time) in numbers. There is nothing of equity beyond the current state. If you aren't willing to commit and dedicate the time to build a strong character, then when you get your bum kicked by someone who has -- you don't whine -- you understand. I can compete, I can oppose someone of such caliber were I to do the same thing. This is the endeavour igniting progression and full exploration. Every day I field some questions about my build and any other particular characteristics insofar. To be honest, what it seems is that everyone either simply blockades the concept due to preconceptions or believes it to be so horridly impassable that the effort required to process any meaningful furthering is without any committable worth. You know what? Maybe these are the ones just lacking the motivation or spur for instigating any such "leap" to such an endeavor. Oh yeah, and Darthus, if you are looking for any extension you can grasp in order to embellish your AA build, know that suiciding until you've reached 50% (having any particular amount will mitigate any incoming gain, you just need to have it when doing AA modifying tasks if they provide Adventurer XP as well) Adventurer experience debt will offer you this.</blockquote><p>meanful furthering? endeavour igniting progression? horridly impassable?</p><p>           These are the words of the village idiot I tell you!! Some of that isnt real language! Is that why your still a t3 SK? You can't figure out the  quest descriptions?</p><p>  There is an army of t3 SKs right now. At t3 the SK is the ultimate one button master. Plate mit, HT, decent dps when mastered out, plate mit. Yeah I locked a Troubador at t5, so I guess I should'nt talk, but who are these guys trying to fool? If  was Seliri,  would just shut-up and go on running around the griff towers fighting t3s that can't hardly scratch him, and HTing the rest.</p><p>              Nobody is gonna but into this schick, no matter what he says. We all know why a person locks an SK, and fables him out at lvl 20. No amount of adverbs, or adjectives is gonna change that. Seliri is like the little King of the Munchkins. </p><p> What I can't figure out is how he doesnt get bored. I'm doing quests on all my lowbies, and Seliri is a constatnt fixture flying from griff towers,to SH, to BB, repeat. Fort months he has been doing that  on a Fabled 20 SK! He spends mst of the time his HT is down, flying on griffs!</p><p>   Yeah Seliri, it is not often I feel I speak for the Majority, but this is a rare case, nobody thnks your good, nobody is impressed with a lvl 20 SK. Alot of us have heard your crap about HT being for emergencies, blah, blah, blah. That's your favorite speech to give!  Funny how you have an  "emergency" every time it's up, LoL!</p><p>  <span style="font-size: small">Get a toon on Nagafen, that has alittle success, that ISNT A T3 Shadowknight</span>, and maybe I'll buy some of your garbage. Right now your a permanent fixture of t3, that is more like a MOB than a person.  Example:</p><p>You have a pretty predictable wander range</p><p>You have a pretty predictable attack everytime</p><p>So gratz, Antonica has Windstalker Rumbler, Grolven Chiptooth, Holly, the scarescrow King, and Seliri.</p><p>  Seriously have fun dude, play however you want, but stop using terms like "competing" in your posts. Your not trying to compete with anyone.</p>

Radigazt
02-17-2007, 01:28 PM
<p>To the OP, here are some quick answers:</p><p>1.  "Locking" means turning off your combat xp, but you still get xp from completing quests and "disco's" (discovering a new area).  2.  Most people lock because that's where the most PvP action is, T3 and more recently T2 seems to have a the most PvP action.  People come to this server to PvP, so that's why they roll an alt in T2 and/or T3, because that's where the PvP action can be found.  3.  The most important things to get are Mastercrafted (or better, but Mastercrafted is actually just fine) armor, and if you're a mele toon, get weapons.  Jewelry, etc. is optional really.  Mastercrafted armor means you'll need to harvest rares.  There is an instance in Zarvonn's Tower in the Commonlands near the Nek Grif Station that allows you to harvest T3 stuff safely.  That's ideal for newcomers who have difficulty harvesting safely.  Cove of Decay is another instance in which you can harvest.  4.  I'd actually recommend that you just plain level up one character, a Monk/Bruiser works because he's hard to kill and has Feign Death, but really a Ranger/Assassin, Swashy/Brigand or Troubador/Dirge are probably the best because they track and evac.  Use this higher level toon to harvest the lower tiers for raws and rares.  Sell the raws you don't need, keep the rares unless you're sure you will not be needing them.  5.  Start crafting.  Find a tradeskill that makes good money, such as Armorer.  You can make decent money that way and use it to twink out your lowbie.  It seems like a lot to do just to compete, but remember, that's what basically everyone on this server did.  For every 10 of those twinks you see, realize that at least 9 of them have higher level toons that survived the ganking to level up, then they used those high level toons to harvest their rares, then made money on that higher level toon.  The twink you're fighting in T2 is the recipient of the suffering that person did on their higher level toon.  That 10'th person ... is you, someone whose buddy gave him 20 plat to twink out.  Personally, I'd not waste it twinking your first character in T2.  I'd use it to get a crafter up to high enough level to earn some money, and use another alt to level up and harvest.  Then only spend plat on neccessary rares u cannot find and make full Mastercrafted gear and buy Master spells once you've locked.  6.  One huge difference is spell/combat art quality.  If your combat arts are Apprentice 1, you need to get them to Adept 3 or Master 1 to compete.  That's actually a big deal, and all those twinks are spending their money on that, which is why they hit harder, miss less, and seem to kill you so quickly.  7.  Gildorath didn't attack back because he already had your infamy.  He had nothing left to gain and everything to lose.  He's a known zone-hopper who exploits the zone immunity to become permanently unhittable if anyone appears that can challenge him.  He attacked you because he could tell you weren't twinked.  Then after his easy kill he was out of combat.  When you came back, he didn't want to get "in-combat" because then he wouldn't be able to zone-hop all day if you had come back with friends that might actually kill him.  Trust me, if you had started doing any damage to him he would have just zoned away, then continued to zone until he could shoot another fish in a barrel.  He's not the typical locked toon nor the typical twink ... his entire game is only killing extremely easy kills and then abusing the zone-immunity to stay away from any real competition.  8.  My suggestion would be to pick a tier/level that your friend plays on and level up to that level.  On a PvP server, it's very dangerous to solo.  Try to find a group to PvP with, and if you're going to PvE, make sure your scout is tracking PC's 100% of the time.  Or, PvE in instances.  On Nagafen, it's only a matter of time until a Q raid wipes you, they love to raid up.  On the other hand, Gildorath is usually solo ... but he's virtually permanently immune from zone-hopping, so he's not really taking any risks.  9.  Don't spend your money on Adornments.  They're extremely expensive, and while they help, they're not worth the money when you're low on funds.  Only add those last when you've gotten your gear (mitigation and resistances are king).  10.  Miracles and Blessings ... they become available at level 25, and Q's use them all the freaking time (maybe FP's too but I don't see 'em so I'm not sure).  So realize that when you hit level 21 you'll start seeing Paladins doing Warlock type damage, then it'll take 1 hour for their miracle to recharge, so they'll camp or call back to Qeynos.  This BS starts in T3, and it is a large part of why T2 has become so popular for PvP lately.  </p><p>Hope this helps.  G'luck to you.  If you have any problems or questions feel free to contact me in-game on Vexxus or Vexus, I'll be glad to help.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

CresentBlade
02-17-2007, 04:50 PM
<cite>Radigazt wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>To the OP, here are some quick answers:</p><p>1.  "Locking" means turning off your combat xp, but you still get xp from completing quests and "disco's" (discovering a new area).  2.  Most people lock because that's where the most PvP action is, T3 and more recently T2 seems to have a the most PvP action.  People come to this server to PvP, so that's why they roll an alt in T2 and/or T3, because that's where the PvP action can be found.  3.  The most important things to get are Mastercrafted (or better, but Mastercrafted is actually just fine) armor, and if you're a mele toon, get weapons.  Jewelry, etc. is optional really.  Mastercrafted armor means you'll need to harvest rares.  There is an instance in Zarvonn's Tower in the Commonlands near the Nek Grif Station that allows you to harvest T3 stuff safely.  That's ideal for newcomers who have difficulty harvesting safely.  Cove of Decay is another instance in which you can harvest.  4.  I'd actually recommend that you just plain level up one character, a Monk/Bruiser works because he's hard to kill and has Feign Death, but really a Ranger/Assassin, Swashy/Brigand or Troubador/Dirge are probably the best because they track and evac.  Use this higher level toon to harvest the lower tiers for raws and rares.  Sell the raws you don't need, keep the rares unless you're sure you will not be needing them.  5.  Start crafting.  Find a tradeskill that makes good money, such as Armorer.  You can make decent money that way and use it to twink out your lowbie.  It seems like a lot to do just to compete, but remember, that's what basically everyone on this server did.  For every 10 of those twinks you see, realize that at least 9 of them have higher level toons that survived the ganking to level up, then they used those high level toons to harvest their rares, then made money on that higher level toon.  The twink you're fighting in T2 is the recipient of the suffering that person did on their higher level toon.  That 10'th person ... is you, someone whose buddy gave him 20 plat to twink out.  Personally, I'd not waste it twinking your first character in T2.  I'd use it to get a crafter up to high enough level to earn some money, and use another alt to level up and harvest.  Then only spend plat on neccessary rares u cannot find and make full Mastercrafted gear and buy Master spells once you've locked.  6.  One huge difference is spell/combat art quality.  If your combat arts are Apprentice 1, you need to get them to Adept 3 or Master 1 to compete.  That's actually a big deal, and all those twinks are spending their money on that, which is why they hit harder, miss less, and seem to kill you so quickly.  7<span style="font-size: medium">.  Gildorath didn't attack back because he already had your infamy.  He had nothing left to gain and everything to lose.  He's a known zone-hopper who exploits the zone immunity to become permanently unhittable if anyone appears that can challenge him.  He attacked you because he could tell you weren't twinked.  Then after his easy kill he was out of combat.  When you came back, he didn't want to get "in-combat" because then he wouldn't be able to zone-hop all day if you had come back with friends that might actually kill him.  Trust me, if you had started doing any damage to him he would have just zoned away, then continued to zone until he could shoot another fish in a barrel.  He's not the typical locked toon nor the typical twink ... his entire game is only killing extremely easy kills and then abusing the zone-immunity to stay away from any real competition.  </span>8.  My suggestion would be to pick a tier/level that your friend plays on and level up to that level.  On a PvP server, it's very dangerous to solo.  Try to find a group to PvP with, and if you're going to PvE, make sure your scout is tracking PC's 100% of the time.  Or, PvE in instances.  On Nagafen, it's only a matter of time until a Q raid wipes you, they love to raid up.  On the other hand, Gildorath is usually solo ... but he's virtually permanently immune from zone-hopping, so he's not really taking any risks.  9.  Don't spend your money on Adornments.  They're extremely expensive, and while they help, they're not worth the money when you're low on funds.  Only add those last when you've gotten your gear (mitigation and resistances are king).  10.  Miracles and Blessings ... they become available at level 25, and Q's use them all the freaking time (maybe FP's too but I don't see 'em so I'm not sure).  So realize that when you hit level 21 you'll start seeing Paladins doing Warlock type damage, then it'll take 1 hour for their miracle to recharge, so they'll camp or call back to Qeynos.  This BS starts in T3, and it is a large part of why T2 has become so popular for PvP lately.  </p><p>Hope this helps.  G'luck to you.  If you have any problems or questions feel free to contact me in-game on Vexxus or Vexus, I'll be glad to help.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote>I love owning you every day its great, level 12 beating the hell out of 15 and 16 level twinks and you all cry ALOT. How about you sum up the courage to post your characters? You like to run your mouth alot but dont have the balls to show your toons. Please dont waste my time with your post anymore untill you become man/woman enough to show your toons.<img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Spider
02-17-2007, 04:59 PM
best bet is to stick with cheap handcrafted armor till atleast the 30's as u can get there easly then go with master crafted at 32 ,42,52, and if u start raiding at the higher lvls u can replace gear then

bigevil1
02-18-2007, 04:18 AM
<cite>Darthus wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Ah, yeah, I'd heard of "locking", but didn't really understand what that meant. So that means you basically say, "I'm going to get a character up to this level, then not level anymore, and get him decked out with the best gear possible"? The point I assume, as you said, is that there are more people at lower level, so more people to kill, and you can fight with all the other twinked people at your level.</p><p>Yeah, I don't have any interest in that, at least immediately. I just want to play the game, progress normally (I've never been above like level 12 in EQ2 so far), and PvP along the way. It sounds like your suggestion then is just to level through the teens quickly and move on, because as you move up in level the twinks become less common.</p><p>That sounds fine to me. I'll just have to grin and bear it when they come after me for the time being I guess. And I'll probably save the money, since using it on crazy equipment at this low level is probably pointless unless I was planning to "lock" as you mentioned.</p></blockquote>I locked my level 22 Conj and did nothing but quests for aa points. I started with 7 aa points at level 22 and worked my way to level 30 with 30 aa points. I now have a hydromancer and some leftover aa points i haven't assigned yet. I'm still at 100% vit but have no interest in unlocking myself and going at it for max levels as fast as I can. I think once i hit 32 i stop leveling and questing and concentrate on tradeskill until i feel good and ready to betray my faes.

Spider
02-18-2007, 04:20 PM
<cite>bigevil1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darthus wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Ah, yeah, I'd heard of "locking", but didn't really understand what that meant. So that means you basically say, "I'm going to get a character up to this level, then not level anymore, and get him decked out with the best gear possible"? The point I assume, as you said, is that there are more people at lower level, so more people to kill, and you can fight with all the other twinked people at your level.</p><p>Yeah, I don't have any interest in that, at least immediately. I just want to play the game, progress normally (I've never been above like level 12 in EQ2 so far), and PvP along the way. It sounds like your suggestion then is just to level through the teens quickly and move on, because as you move up in level the twinks become less common.</p><p>That sounds fine to me. I'll just have to grin and bear it when they come after me for the time being I guess. And I'll probably save the money, since using it on crazy equipment at this low level is probably pointless unless I was planning to "lock" as you mentioned.</p></blockquote>I locked my level 22 Conj and did nothing but quests for aa points. I started with 7 aa points at level 22 and worked my way to level 30 with 30 aa points. I now have a hydromancer and some leftover aa points i haven't assigned yet. I'm still at 100% vit but have no interest in unlocking myself and going at it for max levels as fast as I can. I think once i hit 32 i stop leveling and questing and concentrate on tradeskill until i feel good and ready to betray my faes. </blockquote><p>personaly i see nothign wrong with locking at certain lvls nd tier to make the most of your experiance your right there is no need to power grind to 70 youll miss 90% of the game that way </p><p>but the problem comes in taht some individuals lock in the teens and stay there permanently to kill newbies fresh off the boat and it gives lvl locking a bad name on pvp servers  . oh they will of course claim that there locked to kill other twinks but then they will spend all day in the graveyards and teh sunkin city and the caves hunting and killing players in island gear over and over and over again </p>

Greenion
02-18-2007, 04:51 PM
<p><span style="color: #00ff00"><span style="color: #336600">level locking solution of the day </span>: <span style="color: #336600">day number </span><span style="color: #999966">239</span>...</span></p><p><span style="color: #00ff00"><span style="color: #339900">double the zonal pvp level differential in any zone for all level locked characters</span><b><u>.</u></b></span></p><p><span style="color: #339900">edit> allow me to rephrase a bit...</span></p><p><span style="color: #339900">i will use T2 as an example. the level differential is 4 levels in antonica i think (honestly hard to remember being an exile...since it never applies to me) so a regularly 4 level limited zone is the example...</span></p><p><span style="color: #339900">if a character has locked their experience they can only attack characters 4 levels under them but can be attacked by characters 8 levels over them in that zone...i would double the upper end of the level differential per zone in relation to any character with disabled adventure experience. if possible.</span></p><p><span style="color: #339900">this might even things up odds-wise...</span></p><p><span style="color: #339900">it would also incur a cost for the luxury of locking your experience and being given the extra time to develop your character as you see fit within an environ based on progression, gear, and part of said development of character is the pvp interaction, being as we are on pvp servers, with other players...some of which are not shall we say, indulging in said luxury....so...make it cost a little extra risk.</span></p><p><span style="color: #339900">just a suggestion.</span></p>

Valdar
02-18-2007, 05:36 PM
240 Make pvp kills give xp even when level locked. Progression will be slow, thus allowing for gearing up and experiencing the content, but players will level.

Greenion
02-18-2007, 05:49 PM
<span style="color: #339900">well you see that is taking the option away.</span>

CresentBlade
02-18-2007, 05:56 PM
<cite>Greenion wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="color: #00ff00"><span style="color: #336600">level locking solution of the day </span>: <span style="color: #336600">day number </span><span style="color: #999966">239</span>...</span></p><p><span style="color: #00ff00"><span style="color: #339900">double the zonal pvp level differential in any zone for all level locked characters</span><b><u>.</u></b></span></p><p><span style="color: #339900">edit> allow me to rephrase a bit...</span></p><p><span style="color: #339900">i will use T2 as an example. the level differential is 4 levels in antonica i think (honestly hard to remember being an exile...since it never applies to me) so a regularly 4 level limited zone is the example...</span></p><p><span style="color: #339900">if a character has locked their experience they can only attack characters 4 levels under them but can be attacked by characters 8 levels over them in that zone...i would double the upper end of the level differential per zone in relation to any character with disabled adventure experience. if possible.</span></p><p><span style="color: #339900">this might even things up odds-wise...</span></p><p><span style="color: #339900">it would also incur a cost for the luxury of locking your experience and being given the extra time to develop your character as you see fit within an environ based on progression, gear, and part of said development of character is the pvp interaction, being as we are on pvp servers, with other players...some of which are not shall we say, indulging in said luxury....so...make it cost a little extra risk.</span></p><p><span style="color: #339900">just a suggestion.</span></p></blockquote>Interesting ideal.

VanillaX
02-19-2007, 02:04 AM
Same reason I left Vox server, I don't dislike PvP...but being constantly killed as you try to farm simple items for money (being new and all after leaving near release of EQ2) it gets annoying fast walking back to your spot to repeat again. So I rerolled on a normal server, gave up around 15 vet rewards. Balanced PvP in this game atm is silly, especially for people who are just starting, they cant even leave town to make money because some twinked character 1 shots them as they do. I honestly don't know what the devs were thinking.

Eybietie
02-19-2007, 02:51 AM
<p><span style="color: #ffff33">i keep combat xp locked and lvl with quests. to maximize aa points. i actually like questing solo and you´ll encounter pvp while you quest.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffff33"> when i turn combat xp on i would just rush to 70 because leveling in eq2 has become very easy.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffff33">plus i like maxing the char at every tier. </span></p>

Cantilena
02-19-2007, 01:57 PM
<p>It really depends on the level at which you actually plan to spend a lot of time playing.  There is a fairly large population of people who disable combat xp, and stay in Tier 2 to PvP.  If you plan to do that, then twink your character now.  Otherwise, go level up.  Eat whatever deaths you are going to eat, and worry about gear later.</p><p> If you know the game, you will probably be < 20 for what, a week or two at most?  Then maybe three or four weeks < 30?  (Believe me, it can be done much faster if you really want to.)</p><p>Decide what level you want to be.  Don't waste your money on any tier below that.  XP as quickly as possible, making use of instanced zones etc. to get to the level you want to be.  THEN max yourself out.</p>

Bozidar
02-19-2007, 02:16 PM
<cite>Greenion wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="color: #00ff00"><span style="color: #336600">level locking solution of the day </span>: <span style="color: #336600">day number </span><span style="color: #999966">239</span>...</span></p><p><span style="color: #00ff00"><span style="color: #339900">double the zonal pvp level differential in any zone for all level locked characters</span><b><u>.</u></b></span></p><p><span style="color: #339900">edit> allow me to rephrase a bit...</span></p><p><span style="color: #339900">i will use T2 as an example. the level differential is 4 levels in antonica i think (honestly hard to remember being an exile...since it never applies to me) so a regularly 4 level limited zone is the example...</span></p><p><span style="color: #339900">if a character has locked their experience they can only attack characters 4 levels under them but can be attacked by characters 8 levels over them in that zone...i would double the upper end of the level differential per zone in relation to any character with disabled adventure experience. if possible.</span></p><p><span style="color: #339900">this might even things up odds-wise...</span></p><p><span style="color: #339900">it would also incur a cost for the luxury of locking your experience and being given the extra time to develop your character as you see fit within an environ based on progression, gear, and part of said development of character is the pvp interaction, being as we are on pvp servers, with other players...some of which are not shall we say, indulging in said luxury....so...make it cost a little extra risk.</span></p><p><span style="color: #339900">just a suggestion.</span></p></blockquote>I liked this idea until i realized that folks would just enable xp as soon as someone red-conned came along that they didn't want to fight.  Then they'd probably start spaming them with emotes..

Greenion
02-19-2007, 05:15 PM
<span style="color: #339900">add one half hour delay for enablement of combat xp from disablement.</span>

Bozidar
02-19-2007, 05:20 PM
<cite>Greenion wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="color: #339900">add one half hour delay for enablement of combat xp from disablement.</span></blockquote><p> Nah, it's busted.  Was a good idea though.</p>

DankShasta
02-19-2007, 05:29 PM
<cite>Valdar wrote:</cite><blockquote>240 Make pvp kills give xp even when level locked. Progression will be slow, thus allowing for gearing up and experiencing the content, but players will level. </blockquote> that aint bad really, like the xp from finishing a quest

Greenion
02-19-2007, 05:34 PM
<span style="color: #339900">that is taking the option away.</span>

Bozidar
02-19-2007, 05:49 PM
<cite>Greenion wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="color: #339900">that is taking the option away.</span></blockquote><p> Agreed.</p><p>Locking Combat XP is a symptom of a problem.  I suggested two changes that might help this on the old forum.  Trying to remember what they were now, i know one of them was not enabling pvp until lvl 20 <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Can't remember the other, but i remember the other one being a pretty good idea.</p>

Cantilena
02-19-2007, 05:52 PM
<p>Another method of self-twinking without getting pwned all the time is this:</p><p>Make a lvl 1 toon, and make them a provisioner.  Harvest and craft your way to whatever level.  Harvest all the rares you need to have full mastercrafted at every tier, and/or sell surplus rares to buy what you want for the tier you wish to twink for.  If you avoid discoveries as much as possible, it's easy to keep a toon below adventure level 10 all the way to tier 6.  I never bothered killing a mob until I was well over lvl 50 in crafting, and had everything I needed to have my toon maxed out all the way up.</p>

Greenion
02-19-2007, 08:02 PM
<p><span style="color: #339900">or just level lock with whatever gear is handy in a tier and harvest while you are pvp enabled.</span></p><p><span style="color: #339900">edit> crafters of level 20+ should be pvp enabled no matter what adventure level they are.</span></p>

Darthus
02-20-2007, 12:03 AM
<cite>VanillaXpC wrote:</cite><blockquote>Same reason I left Vox server, I don't dislike PvP...but being constantly killed as you try to farm simple items for money (being new and all after leaving near release of EQ2) it gets annoying fast walking back to your spot to repeat again. So I rerolled on a normal server, gave up around 15 vet rewards. Balanced PvP in this game atm is silly, especially for people who are just starting, they cant even leave town to make money because some twinked character 1 shots them as they do. I honestly don't know what the devs were thinking.</blockquote><p> Hey guys, in case you forgot, I'm the OP. =) I appreciate everyone's suggestions, but after playing a bit more and learning, I'm beginning to think I'm most like this guy. It just doesn't seem like the PvP servers are for casual or new players who just want to enjoy the game at their own pace and yet want to PvP.</p><p>I realize that a lot of people here enjoy level locking, and it does sound fun if you can get into it. But the fact of the matter is, it ruins PvP for casual and new players. I honestly don't have 40 hours a week to devote to becoming supercrafter with one character and then twinking another character just so I can PvP people. I don't even understand crafting enough at this point to do what most people are suggesting, and I feel like I don't have time to investigate it by messing around because I have to constantly be watching my back so I don't get insta-killed. I was expecting that a PvP server would be like the other servers, where I could play the game at the rate I wanted, but with ocassional fun PvP thrown in.</p><p>This seems like a whole other deal. It's a shame, since like the person I quoted above, I enjoy PvP enough that I think I'd be bored out of my skull on a pure PvE server. But I simply don't have the time or patience to twink out my guy to the point where I could fight back. I'm level 16 now, have probably been in about 50 PvP fights, and 99% of them have been either one or a group of twinks ganking me and killing me in less than 4 hits. This includes people killing me before I can react when I'm standing right next to a guard in the crossroads.</p><p>I don't mean to whine, I'm just giving my impressions. I like EQ2 a lot. I love the immersion, I love the combat system, the graphics, the attention to detail and the sheer amount of content. But I have to agree with some of the posters here in saying that the PvP system as it currently stands just seems broken and highly exploitable. It's true that people have accepted those exploits wholeheartedly and found some sort of balance in the brokenness by level locking and twinking so that things are even again at that point, but that totally leaves out the casual player.</p><p>I hate WoW, I think it's a simplistic and ugly game compared to EQ2, but at least the PvP system was structured in such a way that you could actually PvP as a casual player and expect to win every once in a while, since without level locking there was no point getting insane gear for your level or twinking your guy to high hell unless you wanted to be an [I cannot control my vocabulary] in the lower level battlegrounds (which people did, and it was stupid, but at least there was still world PvP).</p><p>Thoughts? As far as I see it right now, the only way I can salvage this is to play on a PvE server or power level to the point where twinking is less prevalent, but then of course I've missed content and from all accounts there are less people to PvP with since they're all making alts and twinking them.</p>

Radigazt
02-20-2007, 01:04 AM
<cite>Gildorath wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Radigazt wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>To the OP, here are some quick answers:</p><p>1.  "Locking" means turning off your combat xp, but you still get xp from completing quests and "disco's" (discovering a new area).  2.  Most people lock because that's where the most PvP action is, T3 and more recently T2 seems to have a the most PvP action.  People come to this server to PvP, so that's why they roll an alt in T2 and/or T3, because that's where the PvP action can be found.  3.  The most important things to get are Mastercrafted (or better, but Mastercrafted is actually just fine) armor, and if you're a mele toon, get weapons.  Jewelry, etc. is optional really.  Mastercrafted armor means you'll need to harvest rares.  There is an instance in Zarvonn's Tower in the Commonlands near the Nek Grif Station that allows you to harvest T3 stuff safely.  That's ideal for newcomers who have difficulty harvesting safely.  Cove of Decay is another instance in which you can harvest.  4.  I'd actually recommend that you just plain level up one character, a Monk/Bruiser works because he's hard to kill and has Feign Death, but really a Ranger/Assassin, Swashy/Brigand or Troubador/Dirge are probably the best because they track and evac.  Use this higher level toon to harvest the lower tiers for raws and rares.  Sell the raws you don't need, keep the rares unless you're sure you will not be needing them.  5.  Start crafting.  Find a tradeskill that makes good money, such as Armorer.  You can make decent money that way and use it to twink out your lowbie.  It seems like a lot to do just to compete, but remember, that's what basically everyone on this server did.  For every 10 of those twinks you see, realize that at least 9 of them have higher level toons that survived the ganking to level up, then they used those high level toons to harvest their rares, then made money on that higher level toon.  The twink you're fighting in T2 is the recipient of the suffering that person did on their higher level toon.  That 10'th person ... is you, someone whose buddy gave him 20 plat to twink out.  Personally, I'd not waste it twinking your first character in T2.  I'd use it to get a crafter up to high enough level to earn some money, and use another alt to level up and harvest.  Then only spend plat on neccessary rares u cannot find and make full Mastercrafted gear and buy Master spells once you've locked.  6.  One huge difference is spell/combat art quality.  If your combat arts are Apprentice 1, you need to get them to Adept 3 or Master 1 to compete.  That's actually a big deal, and all those twinks are spending their money on that, which is why they hit harder, miss less, and seem to kill you so quickly.  7<span style="font-size: medium">.  Gildorath didn't attack back because he already had your infamy.  He had nothing left to gain and everything to lose.  He's a known zone-hopper who exploits the zone immunity to become permanently unhittable if anyone appears that can challenge him.  He attacked you because he could tell you weren't twinked.  Then after his easy kill he was out of combat.  When you came back, he didn't want to get "in-combat" because then he wouldn't be able to zone-hop all day if you had come back with friends that might actually kill him.  Trust me, if you had started doing any damage to him he would have just zoned away, then continued to zone until he could shoot another fish in a barrel.  He's not the typical locked toon nor the typical twink ... his entire game is only killing extremely easy kills and then abusing the zone-immunity to stay away from any real competition.  </span>8.  My suggestion would be to pick a tier/level that your friend plays on and level up to that level.  On a PvP server, it's very dangerous to solo.  Try to find a group to PvP with, and if you're going to PvE, make sure your scout is tracking PC's 100% of the time.  Or, PvE in instances.  On Nagafen, it's only a matter of time until a Q raid wipes you, they love to raid up.  On the other hand, Gildorath is usually solo ... but he's virtually permanently immune from zone-hopping, so he's not really taking any risks.  9.  Don't spend your money on Adornments.  They're extremely expensive, and while they help, they're not worth the money when you're low on funds.  Only add those last when you've gotten your gear (mitigation and resistances are king).  10.  Miracles and Blessings ... they become available at level 25, and Q's use them all the freaking time (maybe FP's too but I don't see 'em so I'm not sure).  So realize that when you hit level 21 you'll start seeing Paladins doing Warlock type damage, then it'll take 1 hour for their miracle to recharge, so they'll camp or call back to Qeynos.  This BS starts in T3, and it is a large part of why T2 has become so popular for PvP lately.  </p><p>Hope this helps.  G'luck to you.  If you have any problems or questions feel free to contact me in-game on Vexxus or Vexus, I'll be glad to help.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote>I love owning you every day its great, level 12 beating the hell out of 15 and 16 level twinks and you all cry ALOT. How about you sum up the courage to post your characters? You like to run your mouth alot but dont have the balls to show your toons. Please dont waste my time with your post anymore untill you become man/woman enough to show your toons.<img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote><p>Actually Gildorath, you've killed me once and I've killed u 3 times now .. and it'd be a lot more if you didn't waste a half hour at a time zonehopping away ... just play parchese if u don't want the competition.  BTW, the only time u got me was when my lowbie <u>level 12</u> brig (all treasured gear or empty slots, all app 1's, lol) was trying to get you by the Graveyard zone .. you got me in CL, but a ranger backshotted me while we fought ... that's it, only time you've ever beaten me, though you're welcome to actually fight sometime and have another chance.  As it is now, I've killed u 3 times and died to you 1 time ... but your zonehopping makes me really relish killing you again.  </p><p>*Edited to add that my brig was level 12, edit is underlined.  </p><p>BTW Gildorath, you have other toons besides your level 12 swashy, i know because you log them on to try and gank me sometimes, and then when i bring out my next lowest toon (a level 19) you run away and zone-hop 100% of the time.  I wish I could say that we'd had a meaningful fight ... but you always run away so we haven't had one on anything but my level 12 brig.  I have toons at the following levels: 12, 19, 27, 34, 55 ... let me know when you want to 1v1 me away from a zone line, lol.  </p>

Bozidar
02-20-2007, 11:45 AM
<cite>Darthus wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Thoughts? As far as I see it right now, the only way I can salvage this is to play on a PvE server or power level to the point where twinking is less prevalent, but then of course I've missed content and from all accounts there are less people to PvP with since they're all making alts and twinking them.</p></blockquote><p> 2 thoughts.</p><p>1) there's nothing casual about pvp, so if you're looking for casual.. well, either dying a lot or pve is the answer.  Many people pvp casualy and dying is ok with them.</p><p>2) Twinking is prevalent across the board, it only gets worse as you get higher because you're going up against players that tested themselves in the fire of Twinkdom and came out alive.. w/o quitting pvp.  If you don't want to put the time in (or go to vox, buy a bunch of plat, and put the IRL money in) then your gear and spells aren't going to be that good.  If you roll out like that, i'd suggest that you get a good sized group around you or you're going to drop like a fly to greys.. or pve /shrug</p>

Radigazt
02-20-2007, 12:46 PM
<cite>Gildorath wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Radigazt wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>To the OP, here are some quick answers:</p><p>1.  "Locking" means turning off your combat xp, but you still get xp from completing quests and "disco's" (discovering a new area).  ...</p><p>Hope this helps.  G'luck to you.  If you have any problems or questions feel free to contact me in-game on <b><u>Vexxus</u></b> or <b><u>Vexus</u></b>, I'll be glad to help.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote>Please dont waste my time with your post anymore untill you become man/woman enough to show your toons.<img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote><p> I think the most comical part of Gildorath's post is the fact that I've listed two of my characters, the two I'm almost always on, yet he's trying to insult me by quoting where I've listed them and then trying to insult me for not listing them.  To make this even more obvious for you Gildorath, I've edited down the posts to show exactly where I listed them, and I've bolded and underlined them so you don't miss them.  Really, reading is fundamental.  </p><p>I'm pretty sure you know my toons as I'm constantly beating your guildies.  In case you're wondering, my main is a Dreadnaught with over 2k kills and about about 68 deaths ... and he's not a constant zone-humper like some people.  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

Valdar
02-20-2007, 01:11 PM
<p>EQ2 pvp is not a game for a quick pvp fix. If you want to be competative you have to invest some time in your toon to gear up. </p><p>I have a 70 ranger and a 56 wizard on Darathar and rolled a toon on Nagafen. It took me about 1 week of fairly casual playing to get him to level 14 Brigand & level 23 jeweler in full mastercrafted gear and all adept3's. I also made a 20 armorer in the same time. All this without any help/cash from outside sources, I did it all the hard way.</p><p>Was that week the most enjoyable eq2 time I have ever spent? No, but now I have a toon that is competative, although he will get killed fairly easy by the true twinks that have fabled/mastered out. And I have had a few fun fights since, so it was a week well spent.</p><p>If you want a fast fix and be competative without any effort play fps. EQ2 just doesn't work that way.</p>

Bozidar
02-20-2007, 01:21 PM
<cite>Valdar wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>EQ2 pvp is not a game for a quick pvp fix. If you want to be competative you have to invest some time in your toon to gear up. </p><p>I have a 70 ranger and a 56 wizard on Darathar and rolled a toon on Nagafen. It took me about 1 week of fairly casual playing to get him to level 14 Brigand & level 23 jeweler in full mastercrafted gear and all adept3's. I also made a 20 armorer in the same time. All this without any help/cash from outside sources, I did it all the hard way.</p><p>Was that week the most enjoyable eq2 time I have ever spent? No, but now I have a toon that is competative, although he will get killed fairly easy by the true twinks that have fabled/mastered out. And I have had a few fun fights since, so it was a week well spent.</p><p>If you want a fast fix and be competative without any effort play fps. EQ2 just doesn't work that way.</p></blockquote><p>Welcome to PvP, your story of trying it out and putting the effort in warms the cockles of my cold loveless q-mudering heart.  Ok, warms is a bit strong..</p><p>it's nice to see a skilled pver making the jump to pvp.  I tried like hell on the transition forum when we had the ear of all the pvers to encourage them to come try pvp, and warn them for what it will be like.  Don't know if you read my stuff or not.. don't care.. just glad to have another pvper around <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p>

Darthus
02-20-2007, 03:26 PM
<cite>Valdar wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you want a fast fix and be competative without any effort play fps. EQ2 just doesn't work that way.</blockquote>I appreciate your general advice and views on the subject, but I find this line somewhat offensive. I don't want to be competitive without any effort. I also definitely do not want to play an FPS. As I mentioned in my post there are other MMOs that do not require the depth of knowledge and time to be able to PvP in some sort of meaningful way due to players creating a balance using an exploit of an existing system (as in level locking wasn't designed so people could make uber twinks from what I can tell, it was made so people could PvE in a casual and leisurely fashion and enjoy the content on their own terms). I understand that EQ2's version of PvP may not be what I'm looking for, given that the level locking system requires a pretty serious time investment, a good amount of pre-existing knowledge of the game AND requires you to actually stop advancing in the game and in content in order for you to be able to kill the average person. What this means is that this system caters mostly to people who have: 1) Already had their fill of EQ2's content, so they don't mind stopping their progression. 2) Already have a good amount of knowledge about the game, to know where to stop, how to build their guy etc. 3) Lots of time to devote to this effort. One can make the statement (as you seemed to above) that if I don't like this system, I should go play another MMO or even another game type, like an FPS. Well, all I'm trying to say here is that I, and probably a lot of other people, like Everquest 2. We also like PvP. We are new to the scene, (maybe coming from WoW or Vanguard) and are interested in trying it out. The system that currently exists does not favor people like us. You can just say "then go play somewhere else", but I'd like to point out that there are severe population issues not only with EQ2 in general, but the PvP servers especially. Look at how popular WoW's PvP servers in relation to the PvE servers as opposed to EQ2s. People in this thread have noted that the PvP scene is basically dead except for the level lockers. There's a reason for that. So before you dismiss my commentary as "he should just go play another game and stop whining", consider whether the environment that has been set up by the extreme twinking and level locking creates a good environment for new people coming in and trying the game, and whether or not that's a good thing. I'm not leaving, I'm still trying to learn my way and survive, I just wanted to make it clear what I, as a new player, had experienced and what I had taken away from that experience.

Strums
02-20-2007, 03:30 PM
<cite>Darthus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>VanillaXpC wrote:</cite><blockquote>Same reason I left Vox server, I don't dislike PvP...but being constantly killed as you try to farm simple items for money (being new and all after leaving near release of EQ2) it gets annoying fast walking back to your spot to repeat again. So I rerolled on a normal server, gave up around 15 vet rewards. Balanced PvP in this game atm is silly, especially for people who are just starting, they cant even leave town to make money because some twinked character 1 shots them as they do. I honestly don't know what the devs were thinking.</blockquote><p> Hey guys, in case you forgot, I'm the OP. =) I appreciate everyone's suggestions, but after playing a bit more and learning, I'm beginning to think I'm most like this guy. It just doesn't seem like the PvP servers are for casual or new players who just want to enjoy the game at their own pace and yet want to PvP.</p><p>I realize that a lot of people here enjoy level locking, and it does sound fun if you can get into it. But the fact of the matter is, it ruins PvP for casual and new players. I honestly don't have 40 hours a week to devote to becoming supercrafter with one character and then twinking another character just so I can PvP people. I don't even understand crafting enough at this point to do what most people are suggesting, and I feel like I don't have time to investigate it by messing around because I have to constantly be watching my back so I don't get insta-killed. I was expecting that a PvP server would be like the other servers, where I could play the game at the rate I wanted, but with ocassional fun PvP thrown in.</p><p>This seems like a whole other deal. It's a shame, since like the person I quoted above, I enjoy PvP enough that I think I'd be bored out of my skull on a pure PvE server. But I simply don't have the time or patience to twink out my guy to the point where I could fight back. I'm level 16 now, have probably been in about 50 PvP fights, and 99% of them have been either one or a group of twinks ganking me and killing me in less than 4 hits. This includes people killing me before I can react when I'm standing right next to a guard in the crossroads.</p><p>I don't mean to whine, I'm just giving my impressions. I like EQ2 a lot. I love the immersion, I love the combat system, the graphics, the attention to detail and the sheer amount of content. But I have to agree with some of the posters here in saying that the PvP system as it currently stands just seems broken and highly exploitable. It's true that people have accepted those exploits wholeheartedly and found some sort of balance in the brokenness by level locking and twinking so that things are even again at that point, but that totally leaves out the casual player.</p><p>I hate WoW, I think it's a simplistic and ugly game compared to EQ2, but at least the PvP system was structured in such a way that you could actually PvP as a casual player and expect to win every once in a while, since without level locking there was no point getting insane gear for your level or twinking your guy to high hell unless you wanted to be an [I cannot control my vocabulary] in the lower level battlegrounds (which people did, and it was stupid, but at least there was still world PvP).</p><p>Thoughts? As far as I see it right now, the only way I can salvage this is to play on a PvE server or power level to the point where twinking is less prevalent, but then of course I've missed content and from all accounts there are less people to PvP with since they're all making alts and twinking them.</p></blockquote><p>I must say that I have to agree with you 100%.   I came to pvp after playing pve from launch, and I was just getting completly bored with pve content...the repetivness of it drove me nutz.</p><p>I recently brought my wife over to the pvp server in hopes that I would be able to play with her again..."she has a 70 warlock on a pve server"...but this past week has been a nightmare.  I have a 70 bard on the pvp server I play on, but have only played on this server for about 6 months...and by no means can afford to twink her toon and my alt im playing to get her caught up to my bard.  I have done my best to gear her up with the best I can afford, but it still dose not compair to the lvl locked pvp twinks.</p><p>Long story short, after playing for a week, my wife is currently lvl 29, and we are moving up as fast as we can.  She loves the game, and the pvp, except for the same things you seem to be describing in your post...the lvl locking twinks who just own people.  My hats off to them for putting in the time and effort to obtain the gear they have, but I would have to agree they are ruining pvp for newer players.  We do not activly engage in pvp unless someone attacks us..."because im trying to shelter her from it untill she might auctuly have a chance at winning instead of just having a game experiance of being owned by everyone...wheres the fun in that?"  We have ran into groups of champs that im guessing were uber twinks, and she dose get discouraged when its seems she dosent have a chance to win...but i guess thats just how it is.</p><p>Only thing I can tell ya bud, is to get outa your 20's.  Once you hit 30ish, the "ganking" is not so bad.  The lvl locking twinks are counting on players being new for their "quick" faction / fame kill.  They know that you are an easy target, and frankly dont stand a chance agains them...so they use that to their advantage to benifit them selfs.  I personaly feel that the lvl lockers are selfish, and are thinking only of them selfs...and not thinking about what they are doing to the potential new player base and possiably running the population of the pvp servers into the ground.  If all the new players get frusterated as the OP did here and take off...where will pvp on EQ2 be in a few years?  Say no to lvl locking!</p><p>flame away! </p>

Sebastien
02-20-2007, 03:30 PM
<p>I wanted to chime in here after my initial foray over the weekend.</p><p>In general I will just come out and say that I am not a fan of the "twinking" hobby.. I think the longterm effect of it is basically fun for the few established players, at the cost of turning away MANY prospective players who simply cannot enjoy themselves or have fun in an environment dominated by twinks.</p><p>So in essence permitting twinks appeases some of those currently playing EQ2 pvp, but virtually guarantees that SOE will never attract more business than what it currently has.</p><p>Having said that.. as I have pvp'd in several different mmo's, I just want to say that the impact of twinking does not seem that bad to me, at first glance.  We did engage in some twinks, and no we didn't win.  But we were also green to them, and frankly content to have even apprentice iv's (which we made ourselves..) and treasured gear (which we had in some slots..).</p><p>Despite the odds being so clearly stacked against us, even when fighting titled opponents I never felt the situation was totally hopeless, and in each fight felt that if we had played better and had more experience we might have inflicted a casualty or two.</p><p>I've played games (Anarchy Online comes to mind) where it is <u>literally</u> impossible to PvP unless you are an established player with twinks that require a 1+ year time investment to create.  And when I use the word impossible I mean that you could not even land a hit against a twinked opponent unless you were also twinked, and that they would kill you in a single hit automatically unless you were twinked.</p><p>The state of twinking might seem exagerated to people who have not pvp'd in other mmo's, is basically what I am getting at.  It could be much worse than this, and in fact I was relieved to discover that things weren't nearly as bad as the forum-hype would have me believe.</p><p>I do think the devs should reflect on ways to limit the impact of twinking further, but I don't think it's so terrible as it stands today.  The real issue here is that the con system is based on character level, but that character level does not really matter as much as gear/spell/CA level.  A more sophisticated con system, which takes these other factors into account, would yield better results (altho it would also be less intuitive for players).</p><p>What you could do, at a minimum, is to impose a more narrow level range on highly geared characters.  For example, cut the level range of a given zone in half, so that a fully twinked character had further restrictions on whom they could prey on (essentially limiting twink warfare to twink-v-twink, as it were).</p>

Metal_Starz
02-20-2007, 03:35 PM
 I'm sick of the word. It's constantly spammed in the channels as soon as someone dies. Twink this, twink that. I say put the mentoring for pvp back in the game and watch everyone unlock. If you want to see a real twink check out a lv 70 mentored down.

Bozidar
02-20-2007, 03:45 PM
<p>Ah, i just remembered my other suggestion to help the T2 ganking twinks..</p><p>Raise the starting faction with the city knights so that we don't have to kill 800 people in order to get lvl 23 pvp gear.</p>

Badaxe Ba
02-20-2007, 03:55 PM
I agree with Orthid, fix mentoring, and let the higher levels come down to play with the 'twinks'.  then the more experienced players will actually have a good reason to help out newer players, than the current "mentored-FREE KILL" that is now. Fix the Mentoring so we can help our lesser experienced brethren I say!

Darthus
02-20-2007, 04:03 PM
That does sound like a very good idea to me. It would help two problems at once. Twinking wouldn't be so godly, since higher level players could help deal with them, which would encourage people to play normally, unless they really enjoyed the twinking experience. It would also give higher level players the ability to participate in PvP even if the higher level PvP areas were devoid of anyone to fight, essentially making it so you never level past the point where PvPing is accessible to you. So you guys are saying this ability was around for a while, but it no longer is?

Bozidar
02-20-2007, 04:06 PM
Badaxe Bart wrote: <blockquote>I agree with Orthid, fix mentoring, and let the higher levels come down to play with the 'twinks'.  then the more experienced players will actually have a good reason to help out newer players, than the current "mentored-FREE KILL" that is now. Fix the Mentoring so we can help our lesser experienced brethren I say!</blockquote><p> There is already a system where you can come down and play with the 'twinks' and help out the newer players.</p><p>it's called rolling an alt, and in encourage you all to do it to help your lesser experienced bethren.</p>

Darthus
02-20-2007, 04:25 PM
The problem with that though, is that it exacerbates the problem. The issue is that playing the actual game and progressing is not encouraged on a PvP server because of the rampant twinking and level locking. It means PvP is rare at high levels and is only viable at low levels if you level lock. So just telling everyone to stop advancing, make a new guy and level lock him, so that that is a chance as a new player that you'll have some help, doesn't really address the issue. It still encourages people to level lock, meaning PvP would still be rare at high levels, and there would actually be more people level locking and rampantly ganking newbies. The mentoring idea holds some merit because it allows people to actually level up and play the game. They can then mentor to a smaller person and help them with level lockers. The level lockers still can tweak out their guys and have their epic battles with other level lockers if that's what they dig. But it means that it all of a sudden becomes viable to level up and not level lock, and still have a chance of some fun PvP. This would have two effects. It would mean you could continue playing your main character as normal, enjoying the content, and deal with level lockers, without having to abandon it, stop your progression and make a level locked alt. Also, since levelling up would now be viable again, it would revitalize the higher level PvP and at the same time make level locking as a method of simply being powerful less enjoyable, meaning there would be more higher level people and less ganking level lockers. This would both decrease the newbies getting ganked by twinks, since they would have protection from people who don't have to give up their characters in order to do so, and would decrease the amount of twinks to gank them.

Bozidar
02-20-2007, 04:33 PM
<cite>Darthus wrote:</cite><blockquote>The problem with that though, is that it exacerbates the problem. The issue is that playing the actual game and progressing is not encouraged on a PvP server because of the rampant twinking and level locking. It means PvP is rare at high levels and is only viable at low levels if you level lock. So just telling everyone to stop advancing, make a new guy and level lock him, so that that is a chance as a new player that you'll have some help, doesn't really address the issue. It still encourages people to level lock, meaning PvP would still be rare at high levels, and there would actually be more people level locking and rampantly ganking newbies.</blockquote><p>TBH, i'm not saying this to flame, but it only exacerbates the problem if you suck.  If you're good, and you can force the enemy out of your zones and protect your newbies they have just one thing they can do to get through you: level up.  And then you've won.. </p><p>Darthus wrote: </p><blockquote> The mentoring idea holds some merit because it allows people to actually level up and play the game. They can then mentor to a smaller person and help them with level lockers. The level lockers still can tweak out their guys and have their epic battles with other level lockers if that's what they dig. But it means that it all of a sudden becomes viable to level up and not level lock, and still have a chance of some fun PvP. This would have two effects. It would mean you could continue playing your main character as normal, enjoying the content, and deal with level lockers, without having to abandon it, stop your progression and make a level locked alt.</blockquote><p>The mentoring thing is nice if they set you to the gear you had at that level, and the combat arts you had at that level, and the food/drink/totems and all that stuff.</p><p>You don't get to use mentored down fabled gear... that's bull.  You don't have those kinds of items in T2/T3 that you do in T7, so why should you get to use them there?  Twinkers do many things to get the edge, but they don't circumvent the content of the game.</p><p>You don't get to use your lvl 67 master spell mentored down to the lvl 13 upgrade -- no.  You get to use the lvl 13 spell that you had AT that level.  The lvl 52 new spell that you got?  Gone.  You don't get to use any version of it because you're not lvl 52 anymore.</p><p>Darthus wrote: </p><blockquote>Also, since levelling up would now be viable again, it would revitalize the higher level PvP and at the same time make level locking as a method of simply being powerful less enjoyable, meaning there would be more higher level people and less ganking level lockers. This would both decrease the newbies getting ganked by twinks, since they would have protection from people who don't have to give up their characters in order to do so, and would decrease the amount of twinks to gank them. </blockquote><p>Leveling up always was and continues to be viable.  There already are plenty of high level characters that can respond to any twink gankers.  The problem isn't the locking, the problem is the response.  high level people try to pull exploits rather than rolling an alt and getting dirty.  You're looking for an easy way out.</p><p>Just roll an alt.. and come play the game and beat them at it.  You got to 70, you're uber.. come show the twinks how to roll.  I'm sure you'll teach them a lot... you know.. or get ganked <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

Darthus
02-20-2007, 04:45 PM
Well right, but notice that what you're saying is not a solution to the problem of "new players are getting rolled over by twinks and stop playing". Or is the solution that the high level people should make twinks to fight off the twinks and protect the new players, so it's a world of twinks fighting each other while trying to stop that fight from spilling over to hitting the new players? Seems like a losing battle, as opposed to implementing a system which would make twinking more difficult and relieve some of the pressure on needing to protect new players from twinks in the first place. But I will admit I know nothing about the mentoring system and how it de-levels someone, so I can't say whether or not the specifics of how the system works would actually help against twinks or not.

Killque
02-20-2007, 04:47 PM
<p>Ok, step back if you will, and take the game Counter Strike for an example.</p><p>The Warcraft Mod version is the perfect example of this. If you start playing at the beginning, your fine. You can level up and gain skills at the same pace as everyone else. Now imagine they have been playing that map for a good 2 hours... Well, anyone who comes in late, is pretty much canon fodder for a good while.</p><p>There are ways around this crap.</p><p> Trust me, I was so furious when I first started PvP (came from years of PvE) that I was about to quit. Someone told me to stick in there another week, so I did.... and I am sooooo happy that I did.</p><p>I remember, a low point in my beginning years was a single level 14 Warden whiped our entire group of 16s (we were all noob island geared, or at least close). I was absolutely furious about it....</p><p> Anyway that was long ago, and now that I have learned to adapt to the PvP environment, I cannot go back to PvE. I mean I really tried...LOL it was hilarious... The group I was with was probably thinking, "What is this paranoid dudes problem". It felt very strange sitting in the middle of Sinking Sands xping without a care. I thought I would feel relief, but it was more disapointment.</p><p> Anyway, hang in there. Get with a good guild (mostly people you will have fun with, that comes first) and the rest will follow.</p><p>Hell, come to Vox and you have a home on the FP side. Look me up.</p>

Bozidar
02-20-2007, 04:58 PM
<cite>Darthus wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well right, but notice that what you're saying is not a solution to the problem of "new players are getting rolled over by twinks and stop playing". Or is the solution that the high level people should make twinks to fight off the twinks and protect the new players, so it's a world of twinks fighting each other while trying to stop that fight from spilling over to hitting the new players? Seems like a losing battle, as opposed to implementing a system which would make twinking more difficult and relieve some of the pressure on needing to protect new players from twinks in the first place. But I will admit I know nothing about the mentoring system and how it de-levels someone, so I can't say whether or not the specifics of how the system works would actually help against twinks or not. </blockquote><p> 99% of the people i play with that have low-level alts have them locked so that we can get the faction we need to get pvp gear.  Raise the starting faction with the lucanic knights and royal weenier guard from -10k to 0, and you'll see people get through those first 400 kills and then level up.</p><p>People want to get those cool abilities in the 20's.  They want to get the nice ugprades in the 30s and cool new ones that come too.  IMO.</p><p>But the best gear in the game is pvp gear.. and you need to lock and fight to get it.  Remove the need to lock AS MUCH, and you'll see people leveling up faster.  IMO.</p>

Strums
02-20-2007, 05:05 PM
<cite>Bozidar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darthus wrote:</cite><blockquote>The problem with that though, is that it exacerbates the problem. The issue is that playing the actual game and progressing is not encouraged on a PvP server because of the rampant twinking and level locking. It means PvP is rare at high levels and is only viable at low levels if you level lock. So just telling everyone to stop advancing, make a new guy and level lock him, so that that is a chance as a new player that you'll have some help, doesn't really address the issue. It still encourages people to level lock, meaning PvP would still be rare at high levels, and there would actually be more people level locking and rampantly ganking newbies.</blockquote><p>TBH, i'm not saying this to flame, but it only exacerbates the problem if you suck.  If you're good, and you can force the enemy out of your zones and protect your newbies they have just one thing they can do to get through you: level up.  And then you've won.. </p><p>Darthus wrote: </p><blockquote> The mentoring idea holds some merit because it allows people to actually level up and play the game. They can then mentor to a smaller person and help them with level lockers. The level lockers still can tweak out their guys and have their epic battles with other level lockers if that's what they dig. But it means that it all of a sudden becomes viable to level up and not level lock, and still have a chance of some fun PvP. This would have two effects. It would mean you could continue playing your main character as normal, enjoying the content, and deal with level lockers, without having to abandon it, stop your progression and make a level locked alt.</blockquote><p>The mentoring thing is nice if they set you to the gear you had at that level, and the combat arts you had at that level, and the food/drink/totems and all that stuff.</p><p>You don't get to use mentored down fabled gear... that's bull.  You don't have those kinds of items in T2/T3 that you do in T7, so why should you get to use them there?  Twinkers do many things to get the edge, but they don't circumvent the content of the game.</p><p>You don't get to use your lvl 67 master spell mentored down to the lvl 13 upgrade -- no.  You get to use the lvl 13 spell that you had AT that level.  The lvl 52 new spell that you got?  Gone.  You don't get to use any version of it because you're not lvl 52 anymore.</p><p>Darthus wrote: </p><blockquote>Also, since levelling up would now be viable again, it would revitalize the higher level PvP and at the same time make level locking as a method of simply being powerful less enjoyable, meaning there would be more higher level people and less ganking level lockers. This would both decrease the newbies getting ganked by twinks, since they would have protection from people who don't have to give up their characters in order to do so, and would decrease the amount of twinks to gank them. </blockquote><p>Leveling up always was and continues to be viable.  There already are plenty of high level characters that can respond to any twink gankers.  The problem isn't the locking, the problem is the response.  high level people try to pull exploits rather than rolling an alt and getting dirty.  You're looking for an easy way out.</p><p>Just roll an alt.. and come play the game and beat them at it.  You got to 70, you're uber.. come show the twinks how to roll.  I'm sure you'll teach them a lot... you know.. or get ganked <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote><p> What your saying about the mentoring system has allready been tryed and fail.  If anyone remembers, when mentoring first came out you HAD to open your spell book, make new hot bars for the spells you were able to use at that lvl etc...it was simply a pain, and NO ONE mentored.  not even on pve.  The way they have it set up now is great.  You dont have to change your hotbars or anything...what you have stays he same, it is just reduced.  Now I will be the first to admit that it is a bid overpowered, but not too much.  I auctuly tested a few of my spells that were mastered at T7 and a T3 spell that was mastered when I was mentored.  This diffrence was minimul at best.  The thing with it is, IMO, is the stats from the gear.  If you have all fabled with +20 threw +30 int on each piece, + disruption stats, you still output more damage than you would have had you been lvl 30, but I think alot of that is in relation to the gear, not the spells them self.</p><p>Mentors are overpowered, but a T7 with all fabled / masters who is mentoring SHOULD be more powerful than someone in that tier who has mastercrafted / ledgendary / adept III's </p>

Darthus
02-20-2007, 05:15 PM
Yeah, it's mainly an argument of whether or not they could make the game better for new people in an easy way, or whether the new people should just "stick with the crappy parts, because it's fun later on". I believe you when you say it's possible to get past, and I probably will do your suggestions, but it still might mean that they should address it so that people with less willpower can have an easier time getting into it.

Bozidar
02-20-2007, 05:21 PM
<cite>Strums wrote:</cite><blockquote>What your saying about the mentoring system has allready been tryed and fail.  If anyone remembers, when mentoring first came out you HAD to open your spell book, make new hot bars for the spells you were able to use at that lvl etc...it was simply a pain, and NO ONE mentored.  not even on pve.  The way they have it set up now is great.  You dont have to change your hotbars or anything...what you have stays he same, it is just reduced.  Now I will be the first to admit that it is a bid overpowered, but not too much.  I auctuly tested a few of my spells that were mastered at T7 and a T3 spell that was mastered when I was mentored.  This diffrence was minimul at best.  The thing with it is, IMO, is the stats from the gear.  If you have all fabled with +20 threw +30 int on each piece, + disruption stats, you still output more damage than you would have had you been lvl 30, but I think alot of that is in relation to the gear, not the spells them self. <p>Mentors are overpowered, but a T7 with all fabled / masters who is mentoring SHOULD be more powerful than someone in that tier who has mastercrafted / ledgendary / adept III's </p></blockquote><p> Having someone who's level 70 with acess to many more abilities/spells than someone who's in the lower tiers is not fair for pvp.  Having someone who's lvl 70 with, let's say, a mana shield, or an item proc in every [Removed for Content] slot in their inventory.. it's not fair vs someone in the lower tiers.</p><p>You're not looking to make mentoring viable, you're looking to punish lower level players for not leveling up.  Sorry, it doesn't work like that.  Someone who's in T7 and want's the PRIVLIDGE of pvping in a lower tier shouldn't be more powerful than someone who's actually spent time in the content for that tier gearing up.</p><p>If you were a weaksauce noob at lvl 30 because you didn't feel like upgrading all your spells because you were leveling through it.. that's your fault.  You didn't have to pound at the content in that tier to get the masters and gear you needed, like the lockers do.   You want to pvp in the lower tiers then you play on a level and even playing field.</p><p>Best way to do this, without any dev help needed at all, roll an alt.</p><p>Honestly, i really think a lot of high level pvpers are afraid to do it because they're going to realize that there's something tougher out there than a white conn'd player again.</p>

Bozidar
02-20-2007, 05:22 PM
<cite>Darthus wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yeah, it's mainly an argument of whether or not they could make the game better for new people in an easy way, or whether the new people should just "stick with the crappy parts, because it's fun later on". I believe you when you say it's possible to get past, and I probably will do your suggestions, but it still might mean that they should address it so that people with less willpower can have an easier time getting into it. </blockquote> for the record, i think you should level through it the first time, make some money at higher levels, and then create a twink alt to go gank the crap out of the folks that griefed you <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Killque
02-20-2007, 05:30 PM
<cite>Darthus wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yeah, it's mainly an argument of whether or not they could make the game better for new people in an easy way, or whether the new people should just "stick with the crappy parts, because it's fun later on". I believe you when you say it's possible to get past, and I probably will do your suggestions, but it still might mean that they should address it so that people with less willpower can have an easier time getting into it. </blockquote><p> What server are you on if you dont mind saying? Also what class, side etc... Ill see if I cant PM you some assistance.</p><p>I really feel when you are past the hard part, you will retract the part above.</p>

Darthus
02-20-2007, 05:50 PM
I'm on Nagafen, level 16 Assassin. Name is Darthus. I would consider rerolling on another server if the PvP situation were better, I just started on Nagafen because I'd heard the population on PvP servers was pretty sparse and wanted to play on the most populous one, thinking there would be more opportunity for PvP. Also, to the poster above, I don't want to power through the levels so I can farm gold and then roll an alt and level lock. I also don't want to "punish" the people that have been griefing me. I want to play the game, experience the quests, since this is my first time through, and PvP while I do it. Now I recognize that may not be possible at this point and time, but I'm just pointing that out. I'd also like to note that I'm not a PvE player. I've been playing PvP games for 12 years since the time of text MUDs. I've always opted to play in a PvP environment in every MMO I've played, though I'll admit I haven't gotten far enough in games like Anarchy Online to realize that level locking was a bigger deal than here.

Kurindor_Mythecnea
02-20-2007, 06:27 PM
<cite>Strums wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darthus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>VanillaXpC wrote:</cite><blockquote>Same reason I left Vox server, I don't dislike PvP...but being constantly killed as you try to farm simple items for money (being new and all after leaving near release of EQ2) it gets annoying fast walking back to your spot to repeat again. So I rerolled on a normal server, gave up around 15 vet rewards. Balanced PvP in this game atm is silly, especially for people who are just starting, they cant even leave town to make money because some twinked character 1 shots them as they do. I honestly don't know what the devs were thinking.</blockquote><p> Hey guys, in case you forgot, I'm the OP. =) I appreciate everyone's suggestions, but after playing a bit more and learning, I'm beginning to think I'm most like this guy. It just doesn't seem like the PvP servers are for casual or new players who just want to enjoy the game at their own pace and yet want to PvP.</p><p>I realize that a lot of people here enjoy level locking, and it does sound fun if you can get into it. But the fact of the matter is, it ruins PvP for casual and new players. I honestly don't have 40 hours a week to devote to becoming supercrafter with one character and then twinking another character just so I can PvP people. I don't even understand crafting enough at this point to do what most people are suggesting, and I feel like I don't have time to investigate it by messing around because I have to constantly be watching my back so I don't get insta-killed. I was expecting that a PvP server would be like the other servers, where I could play the game at the rate I wanted, but with ocassional fun PvP thrown in.</p><p>This seems like a whole other deal. It's a shame, since like the person I quoted above, I enjoy PvP enough that I think I'd be bored out of my skull on a pure PvE server. But I simply don't have the time or patience to twink out my guy to the point where I could fight back. I'm level 16 now, have probably been in about 50 PvP fights, and 99% of them have been either one or a group of twinks ganking me and killing me in less than 4 hits. This includes people killing me before I can react when I'm standing right next to a guard in the crossroads.</p><p>I don't mean to whine, I'm just giving my impressions. I like EQ2 a lot. I love the immersion, I love the combat system, the graphics, the attention to detail and the sheer amount of content. But I have to agree with some of the posters here in saying that the PvP system as it currently stands just seems broken and highly exploitable. It's true that people have accepted those exploits wholeheartedly and found some sort of balance in the brokenness by level locking and twinking so that things are even again at that point, but that totally leaves out the casual player.</p><p>I hate WoW, I think it's a simplistic and ugly game compared to EQ2, but at least the PvP system was structured in such a way that you could actually PvP as a casual player and expect to win every once in a while, since without level locking there was no point getting insane gear for your level or twinking your guy to high hell unless you wanted to be an [I cannot control my vocabulary] in the lower level battlegrounds (which people did, and it was stupid, but at least there was still world PvP).</p><p>Thoughts? As far as I see it right now, the only way I can salvage this is to play on a PvE server or power level to the point where twinking is less prevalent, but then of course I've missed content and from all accounts there are less people to PvP with since they're all making alts and twinking them.</p></blockquote><p>I must say that I have to agree with you 100%.   I came to pvp after playing pve from launch, and I was just getting completly bored with pve content...the repetivness of it drove me nutz.</p><p>I recently brought my wife over to the pvp server in hopes that I would be able to play with her again..."she has a 70 warlock on a pve server"...but this past week has been a nightmare.  I have a 70 bard on the pvp server I play on, but have only played on this server for about 6 months...and by no means can afford to twink her toon and my alt im playing to get her caught up to my bard.  I have done my best to gear her up with the best I can afford, but it still dose not compair to the lvl locked pvp twinks.</p><p>Long story short, after playing for a week, my wife is currently lvl 29, and we are moving up as fast as we can.  She loves the game, and the pvp, except for the same things you seem to be describing in your post...the lvl locking twinks who just own people.  My hats off to them for putting in the time and effort to obtain the gear they have, but I would have to agree they are ruining pvp for newer players.  We do not activly engage in pvp unless someone attacks us..."because im trying to shelter her from it untill she might auctuly have a chance at winning instead of just having a game experiance of being owned by everyone...wheres the fun in that?"  We have ran into groups of champs that im guessing were uber twinks, and she dose get discouraged when its seems she dosent have a chance to win...but i guess thats just how it is.</p><p>Only thing I can tell ya bud, is to get outa your 20's.  Once you hit 30ish, the "ganking" is not so bad.  The lvl locking twinks are counting on players being new for their "quick" faction / fame kill.  They know that you are an easy target, and frankly dont stand a chance agains them...so they use that to their advantage to benifit them selfs.  I personaly feel that the lvl lockers are selfish, and are thinking only of them selfs...and not thinking about what they are doing to the potential new player base and possiably running the population of the pvp servers into the ground.  If all the new players get frusterated as the OP did here and take off...where will pvp on EQ2 be in a few years?  Say no to lvl locking!</p><p>flame away! </p></blockquote>It is not one's concern where legitimacy is had in a particular variety sought. If you feel those who choose to embellish their character to the pinnacle of peaks is being "selfish", realize that the game has been developed as such. To you who claim T7s and such need ability to PvP while mentored, at least advise something minutely sensical and provide us with the image that you actually aren't just looking for some unfair fight to kill the twinks who you're unjustly fed up with -- if this is to be so, remove usability of higher-tier maneuvers that are received after the mentored level.

Bozidar
02-20-2007, 06:34 PM
<cite>Darthus wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm on Nagafen, level 16 Assassin. Name is Darthus. I would consider rerolling on another server if the PvP situation were better, I just started on Nagafen because I'd heard the population on PvP servers was pretty sparse and wanted to play on the most populous one, thinking there would be more opportunity for PvP. Also, to the poster above, I don't want to power through the levels so I can farm gold and then roll an alt and level lock. I also don't want to "punish" the people that have been griefing me. I want to play the game, experience the quests, since this is my first time through, and PvP while I do it. Now I recognize that may not be possible at this point and time, but I'm just pointing that out. I'd also like to note that I'm not a PvE player. I've been playing PvP games for 12 years since the time of text MUDs. I've always opted to play in a PvP environment in every MMO I've played, though I'll admit I haven't gotten far enough in games like Anarchy Online to realize that level locking was a bigger deal than here. </blockquote><p> i've played those ole text muds too, but haven't mmo'd since then until eq2 <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  </p><p>It's definately possible to do what you say, and play the game the way you're trying to.  Your best bet though is to get good at getting away when the twinks come, or roll in a group.  If you're in treasured/lsland gear, you're going to get rolled by twinks.  I'm not on nagafen, but on vox the twinks roll through the lowbie zones and cl pretty regularly.  I can still get things done if i'm careful, so no one is able to prevent me from getting to content.</p><p>I think your biggest struggle is that you don't know the content, it doesn't seem like you have a guild to help you along with that, and you're doing that during pvp.  It's tough.</p><p>I started on a pvp server, Vox, and learned it the hard way like you, only i had some personal friend and guildies to help me along the way.  They didn't wink me out or hand anything, but they were there to group with me and teach me the ways of eq2 and pvp.</p><p>I wish you the best of luck on nagafen.</p>

Darthus
02-20-2007, 06:45 PM
Thanks man. <blockquote>It is not one's concern where legitimacy is had in a particular variety sought.</blockquote> Is that even a sentence? <blockquote>It is not one's concern where legitimacy is had in a particular variety sought. If you feel those who choose to embellish their character to the pinnacle of peaks is being "selfish", realize that the game has been developed as such. To you who claim T7s and such need ability to PvP while mentored, at least advise something minutely sensical and provide us with the image that you actually aren't just looking for some unfair fight to kill the twinks who you're unjustly fed up with -- if this is to be so, remove usability of higher-tier maneuvers that are received after the mentored level.</blockquote> Let me try to translate: It's not for you to say how someone should enjoy the game. If you think someone trying to maximize the power of their character is being "selfish", realize that the game was developed with that goal in mind. If you're going to suggest that Tier 7s need to be able to PvP while mentored, at least suggest a reasonable implementation; one that doesn't suggest that you just want an unfair advantage that allows you to kill the twinks just because you're frustrated that they exist. If you want a workable version of the mentoring system, at least make it so abilities that were received after your newly mentored level aren't available. At least I think that's what you're trying to say. Remember Seliri, language was invented with the purpose of communication, not showing off one's vocabulary so that communication is diminished.

Kurindor_Mythecnea
02-20-2007, 07:04 PM
<cite>Darthus wrote:</cite><blockquote>Thanks man. <blockquote>It is not one's concern where legitimacy is had in a particular variety sought.</blockquote> Is that even a sentence? </blockquote> Yes, it is.

Darthus
02-20-2007, 07:09 PM
Can you help me out by pointing out the subject, the verb, the direct object etc? I think I see 2 verbs. Maybe: It is not one's concern where legitimacy in a particular variety is had. ? I don't even see what "sought" is referring to.

Kurindor_Mythecnea
02-20-2007, 07:18 PM
<cite>Darthus wrote:</cite><blockquote>Can you help me out by pointing out the subject, the verb, the direct object etc? I think I see 2 verbs. Maybe: It is not one's concern where legitimacy in a particular variety is had. ? I don't even see what "sought" is referring to. </blockquote> It's just a complex compound sentence. Surprisingly it has good fluidity, although whether you caught it I'm unsure. "It is not one's concern where legitimacy is had in a particular variety sought." Sought is a predicate adjective to "variety", it's just further adorning the meaning being conveyed here. The particular variety I had sought (which had been of legitimacy) need not be with another's concern.

Radigazt
02-20-2007, 07:32 PM
<cite>Metal_Starz wrote:</cite><blockquote> I'm sick of the word. It's constantly spammed in the channels as soon as someone dies. Twink this, twink that. I say put the mentoring for pvp back in the game and watch everyone unlock. If you want to see a real twink check out a lv 70 mentored down. </blockquote><p>I have been advocating for this for quite some time.  Take every character that is above the level zone and auto-mentor him/her down to the appropriate level of the zone ... you don't even have to mentor to a specific player, do it automatically upon entering the zone.  City of Heros/Villains (CoH or CoV) does this in their PvP zones and it works very very well.  </p><p>All you need to do to fix mentoring is to reduce everyone above the level of the zone to the Mastercrafted gear of that zone ... in otherwords, make them like the basic twink.  The Mitigation, Resistance, Stats, etc. would be the same, and the only procs allowed would be the basic procs on Mastercrafteds (e.g. no Raincaller Bows with their constant stun procs, only Mastercrafted bows when mentored down).  As for combat arts and spells, they should keep whatever their highest type in that line is ... so if you have a level 50 Master 1 of a line of spells and you're mentored down to 25, you get the Master 1 of that level 25 spell.  Adjust the racial traits, etc. to only the ones picked at that level.  Then reduce the health/power down to that level.  </p><p>Once Mentoring is fixed, there will be a lot more PvP overall.  Those level 70's would have something to do with their characters.  The server population at non-peak times would be able to consolidate in a few zones and find an abundance of PvP.  </p><p>Please, by all means, fix the mentoring system, because as it is now anyone who mentors down is faaaaaaaaaar more uber than a twink.  So, if your alternative is to disable mentoring, I strongly support fixing the mentoring system so that mentored players aren't so uber ... just make them like twinks and give us twinks more competition.  Honestly, I think a lot of the whiney level 70 players who love to talk about how great they are would really be in for a surprise at how good some of the PvP groups are among the lower level twinks that actually PvP all the time instead of raiding.  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p>

Kurindor_Mythecnea
02-20-2007, 07:44 PM
<cite>Radigazt wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Metal_Starz wrote:</cite><blockquote> I'm sick of the word. It's constantly spammed in the channels as soon as someone dies. Twink this, twink that. I say put the mentoring for pvp back in the game and watch everyone unlock. If you want to see a real twink check out a lv 70 mentored down. </blockquote><p>I have been advocating for this for quite some time.  Take every character that is above the level zone and auto-mentor him/her down to the appropriate level of the zone ... you don't even have to mentor to a specific player, do it automatically upon entering the zone.  City of Heros/Villains (CoH or CoV) does this in their PvP zones and it works very very well.  </p><p>All you need to do to fix mentoring is to reduce everyone above the level of the zone to the Mastercrafted gear of that zone ... in otherwords, make them like the basic twink.  The Mitigation, Resistance, Stats, etc. would be the same, and the only procs allowed would be the basic procs on Mastercrafteds (e.g. no Raincaller Bows with their constant stun procs, only Mastercrafted bows when mentored down).  As for combat arts and spells, they should keep whatever their highest type in that line is ... so if you have a level 50 Master 1 of a line of spells and you're mentored down to 25, you get the Master 1 of that level 25 spell.  Adjust the racial traits, etc. to only the ones picked at that level.  Then reduce the health/power down to that level.  </p><p>Once Mentoring is fixed, there will be a lot more PvP overall.  Those level 70's would have something to do with their characters.  The server population at non-peak times would be able to consolidate in a few zones and find an abundance of PvP.  </p><p>Please, by all means, fix the mentoring system, because as it is now anyone who mentors down is faaaaaaaaaar more uber than a twink.  So, if your alternative is to disable mentoring, I strongly support fixing the mentoring system so that mentored players aren't so uber ... just make them like twinks and give us twinks more competition.  Honestly, I think a lot of the whiney level 70 players who love to talk about how great they are would really be in for a surprise at how good some of the PvP groups are among the lower level twinks that actually PvP all the time instead of raiding.  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p></blockquote>I'm not really sure my only qualm with mentoring stands to be more than the inclusion of higher level capacities when mentored. Many times 70s have mentored with less Fabled then I and have had less mitigation (being plate tanks) than I (to my level or one I was mentored to).

VanillaX
02-21-2007, 12:09 AM
<p>I was away a few days, so I wasn't able to post... Sadly, the only thing I see saving PvP servers as they are now, is FFA with a karma system, just like PvP on other game servers. It would fix a majority of the problems, and people would actually level and *gasp* lose titles. The PvP server as it is, its quite sad, its just people who kill lower levels with supremely better gear to get a higher number on a useless chart, then act smug about it? FFA would allow every person to come into zones and bug each other, but the good thing about that? /1 Can someone please come out and kill this person? or/1 Huge raid of Qeynos, hurry out to <insert coords>! Soon, every person on your side is there, and you have an all out war. It would be so much more fun, and I would have 1500x more respect for a level 70 killing me then a level 13 who has been level locked for 8 months coming online to take his anger from lack of job/girlfriend/whatever. FFA PvP games are so chaotic its fun, but thats where a karma based system would come in, you kill someone far under your level, and you get more karma, thus increasing your chances to drop your rare and valuable items. This would stop 95% of the pure griefers in the system now (and make this an actual PvP server, not level lock server), and they would think twice about killing someone unless they wanted to risk it. Which no one atm is willing to do, because they all kill people far under their skill/gear level and its just silly. I remember playing Lineage 2, RF Online, etc. I loved always being scared in zones, but on these servers, I have some Ratonga / Gnome / other little thing poking me from behind to get a higher score on a little chart that doesnt matter.</p><p>The people level locking should also see they are killing the influx of new players on their server...while I was on Vox, I saw 1 other person in lesser/greater faydark that was actually leveling, and 1-2 people around Antonica.</p>

Radigazt
02-21-2007, 12:56 AM
<cite>Kurindor_Mythecnea wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Radigazt wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Metal_Starz wrote:</cite><blockquote> I'm sick of the word. It's constantly spammed in the channels as soon as someone dies. Twink this, twink that. I say put the mentoring for pvp back in the game and watch everyone unlock. If you want to see a real twink check out a lv 70 mentored down. </blockquote><p>I have been advocating for this for quite some time.  Take every character that is above the level zone and auto-mentor him/her down to the appropriate level of the zone ... you don't even have to mentor to a specific player, do it automatically upon entering the zone.  City of Heros/Villains (CoH or CoV) does this in their PvP zones and it works very very well.  </p><p>All you need to do to fix mentoring is to reduce everyone above the level of the zone to the Mastercrafted gear of that zone ... in otherwords, make them like the basic twink.  The Mitigation, Resistance, Stats, etc. would be the same, and the only procs allowed would be the basic procs on Mastercrafteds (e.g. no Raincaller Bows with their constant stun procs, only Mastercrafted bows when mentored down).  As for combat arts and spells, they should keep whatever their highest type in that line is ... so if you have a level 50 Master 1 of a line of spells and you're mentored down to 25, you get the Master 1 of that level 25 spell.  Adjust the racial traits, etc. to only the ones picked at that level.  Then reduce the health/power down to that level.  </p><p>Once Mentoring is fixed, there will be a lot more PvP overall.  Those level 70's would have something to do with their characters.  The server population at non-peak times would be able to consolidate in a few zones and find an abundance of PvP.  </p><p>Please, by all means, fix the mentoring system, because as it is now anyone who mentors down is faaaaaaaaaar more uber than a twink.  So, if your alternative is to disable mentoring, I strongly support fixing the mentoring system so that mentored players aren't so uber ... just make them like twinks and give us twinks more competition.  Honestly, I think a lot of the whiney level 70 players who love to talk about how great they are would really be in for a surprise at how good some of the PvP groups are among the lower level twinks that actually PvP all the time instead of raiding.  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p></blockquote>I'm not really sure my only qualm with mentoring stands to be more than the inclusion of higher level capacities when mentored. Many times 70s have mentored with less Fabled then I and have had less mitigation (being plate tanks) than I (to my level or one I was mentored to). </blockquote><p>If you were around in the early days of Nagafen you probably remember many people who raced to level up.  Those that farmed nameds and obtained higher levels had way better gear and then mentored down becoming true juggernauts.  They so outclassed everyone else (except summoners at the time) that there was a constant complaint from both sides about it.  The Dev's decided against changing the mentoring system--which worked pretty well for them in PvE--and eventually just gave up, changing the mentoring rules rather insipidly, and eventually disabling combat while mentored.  I fully expected the Devs to fix the mentoring system ... but they haven't done it yet, so now I'm not really sure whether they intend to fix it or not.  </p><p>I'm not saying that occasionally an uber-twinked ultra-fabled out character might actually be superior to a moderately geared mentored player ... I'm just saying that it's extremely rare.  What I'm advocating is something close to a level playing field.  I'm not trying to make the mentored players exactly the same as the ungeared player, because I don't think that's what most people want.  What I am suggesting is that Mastercrafted gear is good stuff, not the best, but it's good.  Mentor everyone down to Mastercrafted, then everyone who mentors will have good gear, but not be uber.  If they want to farm named for gear, fine, then they can get the Fabled gear ... but an average player can compete just fine in Mastercrafted.  </p>

Kurindor_Mythecnea
02-21-2007, 06:44 AM
Hmm...maybe, if they had Fabled, reduce it to the item's stats of the most relative, nearest level Fabled and if a piece of it doesn't exist in a slot that they have it, then revert to MC. O_o

Valdar
02-21-2007, 08:11 AM
<p>Mentoring in pvp is a terrible idea, the players will simply be too powerful.</p><p>- They will have more combat arts, unless you bring the old mentoring system back, which was indeed a royal pain and shouldn't be brought back.</p><p>- They will have 100AA's. Try fighting a lvl 10 toon with 100AA's. If you thought the twinks were bad, these will be much, much worse.</p><p>What they need to implement is that players can slow the rate at which they progress, but they can't completely halt it. That way twinking will still make sense, as you will be able to use and enjoy the lower level gear before you outlevel it, but you won't be stuck at that level forever.</p><p>Th easiest way to do this is to give xp for pvp kills even when combat xp is disabled, just like they did with quests.</p>

Greenion
02-21-2007, 08:51 AM
<span style="color: #339900">i didnt roll on a pvp server for pve progression.</span>

holypaladin28
02-21-2007, 10:32 AM
<cite>Valdar wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Mentoring in pvp is a terrible idea, the players will simply be too powerful.</p><p>- They will have more combat arts, unless you bring the old mentoring system back, which was indeed a royal pain and shouldn't be brought back.</p><p>- They will have 100AA's. Try fighting a lvl 10 toon with 100AA's. If you thought the twinks were bad, these will be much, much worse.</p><p>What they need to implement is that players can slow the rate at which they progress, but they can't completely halt it. That way twinking will still make sense, as you will be able to use and enjoy the lower level gear before you outlevel it, but you won't be stuck at that level forever.</p><p>Th easiest way to do this is to give xp for pvp kills even when combat xp is disabled, just like they did with quests.</p></blockquote>best idea ever devs you are ordered to do this

Ashen-Shugar
02-21-2007, 10:34 AM
Simple solution is to remove level locking and slow pve leveling down (like when eq2 first launched) and increse xp reward for pvp kills maybe  .. that way people would be more tempted to PvP and less tempted to grind carebear style.  Imo level lockers do it so they can get a massive hardon when they pwn noobs in treasured/handcrafted gear and brag about kill streaks etc etc .. Level locking should be removed it is a detriment to the PvP on the server and creates the ultimate imbalances.

Bozidar
02-21-2007, 11:05 AM
<cite>Ashen-Shugar wrote:</cite><blockquote>Simple solution is to remove level locking and slow pve leveling down (like when eq2 first launched) and increse xp reward for pvp kills maybe  .. that way people would be more tempted to PvP and less tempted to grind carebear style.  Imo level lockers do it so they can get a massive hardon when they pwn noobs in treasured/handcrafted gear and brag about kill streaks etc etc .. Level locking should be removed it is a detriment to the PvP on the server and creates the ultimate imbalances.</blockquote><p>I do it because of hte faction.  I have to get 23k faction from start, until i can get lvl 27 pvp gear.  that's a whole lot of dead noobs at my feet.</p><p>increase my starting faction, and i'll murder less noobs and all my teams can move up </p>

Killque
02-21-2007, 11:30 AM
<p>For thoes of you who are whineing for the level locking to end, you have no idea what is waiting for you in t7.</p><p> I dont want to progress to t7.  Not yet anyway. I want to do it at my own pace.</p><p>If you dont lock now, gear/aa up, and you hit level 60 <b>you </b>are going to be the one crying....</p><p> You think the twinks are bad T2-T4, HA! You aint seen nothing yet.</p>

Strums
02-21-2007, 11:52 AM
<cite>Killque wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>For thoes of you who are whineing for the level locking to end, you have no idea what is waiting for you in t7.</p><p> I dont want to progress to t7.  Not yet anyway. I want to do it at my own pace.</p><p>If you dont lock now, gear/aa up, and you hit level 60 <b>you </b>are going to be the one crying....</p><p> You think the twinks are bad T2-T4, HA! You aint seen nothing yet.</p></blockquote><p> lol.../fact!</p><p>The T7 guys who raid on nagafen..."exiles and a select few Qeynos guilds"...are super leet when it comes to pvp in T7.  Their is one particular brig and fury that that I have seen take down a whole group of guys in fabled / legendary / masterccrafted gear....and they took the whole group down in less than 20 seconds.  They are truly good pvpers, and my hats off to them.</p>

Zexxii
02-21-2007, 11:58 AM
<cite>Strums wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Killque wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>.......</p><p> You think the twinks are bad T2-T4, HA! You aint seen nothing yet.</p></blockquote></blockquote><p>My sentiments exactly,</p><p>Darthus if you are still reading,</p><p> What all the blah blah and big words are about (I think, I stopped reading at "my stick is bigger then your stick&quot<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, is a pseudo discussion about T7 PVP, or the lack thereof.</p><p> Not having a T7 toon yet myself, I have inferred this from all the posts I have read, there is trouble in T7 PVP land and from what I can tell, it's pretty similar to what you are feeling now:</p><p> Gear, is SO important, at any tier, as you have already experienced, and the trouble with T7 is the there are three types of gear:</p><p> 1.  PVP token gear</p><p>2.  Raided Fabled gear</p><p>3.  Master Crafted</p><p>Along with the Claymore line, and some other decent drops in the various instances.  </p><p>Now, arguably, the PVP gear and the Raiding gear are pretty much the same, with the same amount of time invested in getting each.  Sorta, unless you are a solo PVP'er, else the gear requires group PVP (sharing tokens) or raiding. Master Crafted gear won't cut it against the other two.  Period.</p><p> There are some guilds/toons that have been at T7 for a while, and gotten some or all of their PVP or Raiding gear, and are terribly bored, and find it fun to gank folks, repeatedly, who are just starting T7, in effect, reducing them to the same state you are feeling now, despite the fact that they have been playing on this server alot longer then you.  This creates a double edged sword, because they all have choices to make at that point.  Continue fighting, and scraping to get the PVP gear, or join a raiding guild to get the fabled, all involve time, and lots of it, and all the while, getting ganked, repeatedly, from all the twinked T7's.</p><p>In the mean time, you are thinking in the back of your head, the majority of the server's population is around 30 on average.  I make lots of money with this T7 toon by completing a few instances a night, I can reroll, twink at whatever level I want, and PVP to my heart's content with a toon that is geared the best they can be, rather quickly, and simply PVP.  It is easier to twink a toon to the max, at lower tiers, almost instantly compared to T7, then to continue to fight off bored T7 players that claim there isn't enough PVP, when their very lack of sportsmanship drives those they clamor for away.  This is one reason why there are so many lower tier twinks:  </p><p> Evenly geared fights among all the twinks, and the only imbalances are those that are built into the classes, and the skill of the player.  </p><p>The double edged sword of this?  All the new folks to the server, encounter the twinks, and because of lack of sportsmanship (griefing) or the simple frustration because there are SO many twinks, the new folks leave the server, just like the new folks leave T7.  More and more double edged swords, which leaves the server going in circles.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

rezzuroze
02-21-2007, 12:45 PM
<p>hello there new one , putting nicely !! </p><p> hay gear is very important , some pvp gear is not better than fabled and visa versa , i have found u got to measure it all out ,</p><p> exspecially if u are going to improve or stay with a certain attbrute for your toon, adorn, adorn adorn !!</p><p>AnyWHO....... i didnt read whole thread,, why would i..... pffft ! </p><p>make sure you work on your aa points !!!!!! lock at 10 , build debt crunching 4/5 aa point in at every lvl keep debt high for less xp tward next lvl , and u can do it , on top of your gear and spellageeee!</p><p>that,, my dear in bonified twinking ,</p><p>also learn your toon, and others,, know your enemies and what they can do,, MUST USE remedies!!!! always !!!</p><p>speed is important when u gotta go !! or when u gotta catch up !! in cobamt speed is the best if u can get !</p><p>and about that frog u mention in first post !!! lol im a lvl 13 fury and he is a 14 or 15 , he could kill me if i let him lol but i dont !!! yesterday i so messin with him !!  and did kill him once in a group ! keep it up new one the game is fun if u keep in mind it's a game !!!</p>

Kurindor_Mythecnea
02-21-2007, 04:17 PM
<cite>Zexxii wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Strums wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Killque wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>.......</p><p> You think the twinks are bad T2-T4, HA! You aint seen nothing yet.</p></blockquote></blockquote><p>My sentiments exactly,</p><p>Darthus if you are still reading,</p><p> What all the blah blah and big words are about (I think, I stopped reading at "my stick is bigger then your stick"<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, is a pseudo discussion about T7 PVP, or the lack thereof.</p><p> Not having a T7 toon yet myself, I have inferred this from all the posts I have read, there is trouble in T7 PVP land and from what I can tell, it's pretty similar to what you are feeling now:</p><p> Gear, is SO important, at any tier, as you have already experienced, and the trouble with T7 is the there are three types of gear:</p><p> 1.  PVP token gear</p><p>2.  Raided Fabled gear</p><p>3.  Master Crafted</p><p>Along with the Claymore line, and some other decent drops in the various instances.  </p><p>Now, arguably, the PVP gear and the Raiding gear are pretty much the same, with the same amount of time invested in getting each.  Sorta, unless you are a solo PVP'er, else the gear requires group PVP (sharing tokens) or raiding. Master Crafted gear won't cut it against the other two.  Period.</p><p> There are some guilds/toons that have been at T7 for a while, and gotten some or all of their PVP or Raiding gear, and are terribly bored, and find it fun to gank folks, repeatedly, who are just starting T7, in effect, reducing them to the same state you are feeling now, despite the fact that they have been playing on this server alot longer then you.  This creates a double edged sword, because they all have choices to make at that point.  Continue fighting, and scraping to get the PVP gear, or join a raiding guild to get the fabled, all involve time, and lots of it, and all the while, getting ganked, repeatedly, from all the twinked T7's.</p><p>In the mean time, you are thinking in the back of your head, the majority of the server's population is around 30 on average.  I make lots of money with this T7 toon by completing a few instances a night, I can reroll, twink at whatever level I want, and PVP to my heart's content with a toon that is geared the best they can be, rather quickly, and simply PVP.  It is easier to twink a toon to the max, at lower tiers, almost instantly compared to T7, then to continue to fight off bored T7 players that claim there isn't enough PVP, when their very lack of sportsmanship drives those they clamor for away.  This is one reason why there are so many lower tier twinks:  </p><p> Evenly geared fights among all the twinks, and the only imbalances are those that are built into the classes, and the skill of the player.  </p><p>The double edged sword of this?  All the new folks to the server, encounter the twinks, and because of lack of sportsmanship (griefing) or the simple frustration because there are SO many twinks, the new folks leave the server, just like the new folks leave T7.  More and more double edged swords, which leaves the server going in circles.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote>I think the best game is the one where sportsmanship isn't involved. And in fact, this is the case. These are the bounds of the game and the arrivals are without understanding in such a sense. You devote or you don't and you weep or you sow.

Strums
02-21-2007, 05:26 PM
<cite>Kurindor_Mythecnea wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think the best game is the one where sportsmanship isn't involved. And in fact, this is the case. These are the bounds of the game and the arrivals are without understanding in such a sense. You devote or you don't and you weep or you sow. </blockquote>eh?  wana repeat that in english their bud?

Greenion
02-21-2007, 05:38 PM
<p><span style="color: #339900">i think he said he is glad that all is fair in love and war (and loves the game that is a war).</span></p><p><span style="color: #339900">and that newbies arent catching the drift real quick that there is no quick path to ubriety, it is a thing earned through dedicated gameplay....</span></p><p><span style="color: #339900">you can either level up and out of lower twinked out tiers (into the upper twinked out tiers)...</span></p><p><span style="color: #339900">or...</span></p><p><span style="color: #339900">as ive said often enogh, you can harvest, harvest, harvest, and craft...etc...or of course you can raid too...etcz.</span></p><p><span style="color: #339900">the point is this : level is not at all everything in eqii pvp...there is more to character development than mere adventure level.</span></p><p><span style="color: #339900">there are alot of differnt factors and variables involved in a pvp battle...gear, level of spell, skill levels, as well as counteractions via different potions, many etcs...all have effect on the outcome...someone takes their time and dedicates into to developing a character completely as you wiz through the content on your way to endgame greatness and snags you in the open....bummer.</span></p>

Strums
02-21-2007, 05:55 PM
<cite>Greenion wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="color: #339900">i think he said he is glad that all is fair in love and war (and loves the game that is a war).</span></p><p><span style="color: #339900">and that newbies arent catching the drift real quick that there is no quick path to ubriety, it is a thing earned through dedicated gameplay....</span></p><p><span style="color: #339900">you can either level up and out of lower twinked out tiers (into the upper twinked out tiers)...</span></p><p><span style="color: #339900">or...</span></p><p><span style="color: #339900">as ive said often enogh, you can harvest, harvest, harvest, and craft...etc...or of course you can raid too...etcz.</span></p><p><span style="color: #339900">the point is this : level is not at all everything in eqii pvp...there is more to character development than mere adventure level.</span></p><p><span style="color: #339900">there are alot of differnt factors and variables involved in a pvp battle...gear, level of spell, skill levels, as well as counteractions via different potions, many etcs...all have effect on the outcome...someone takes their time and dedicates into to developing a character completely as you wiz through the content on your way to endgame greatness and snags you in the open....bummer.</span></p></blockquote><p>Green, I totaly see what your saying about lvling not being the key factor to winning in pvp...however it dose play a big part in it I believe.</p><p>But reffering back to the OP, and the topic of much debate on this thread...what about the twinks?  Is it really fair to the new players that people are driving them away because they can not compete or they lack the knowledge of the game to obtain the gear they need to compete?  Just think about all the guys & gals who dont post on the forums...the ones who just make toons, get jacked one too many times while trying to learn pvp or eq2 in general for that matter, and end up leaving the pvp server or eq2 all together.  What kind of example do the twinks set for the rest of the pvp player base?  that were all uber l337 gankers?  </p><p>Yes, players should dedicate time to their toons, and have to "live and learn" so to speak.  For the first time Green I auctuly agree with you that their is alot more involved in pvp than lvls and gear...I do worry about the population of the pvp servers, and I think that is the biggest reason for lvl lockers out ganking is simply becuase of the lack of pvp after the zone lvl ranges changed, and the cost of the pvp status gear. </p>

Zexxii
02-21-2007, 06:14 PM
<cite>Kurindor_Mythecnea wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think the best game is the one where sportsmanship isn't involved. And in fact, this is the case. These are the bounds of the game and the arrivals are without understanding in such a sense. You devote or you don't and you weep or you sow. </blockquote><p>i'll go with more upscale examples since i think it will suit your fancy, do you enjoy watching fencing, or sailing, or <insert your favorite sport here> and do you think they all exist without sportsmanship? </p>

Kurindor_Mythecnea
02-21-2007, 10:43 PM
<cite>Zexxii wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kurindor_Mythecnea wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think the best game is the one where sportsmanship isn't involved. And in fact, this is the case. These are the bounds of the game and the arrivals are without understanding in such a sense. You devote or you don't and you weep or you sow. </blockquote><p>i'll go with more upscale examples since i think it will suit your fancy, do you enjoy watching fencing, or sailing, or <insert your favorite sport here> and do you think they all exist without sportsmanship? </p></blockquote> Lol. That isn't necessarily upscale but more distant attempt at correlation for invalidation. I never said I wouldn't enjoy games where sportsmanship is involved, and I never said they were bad. The fact is that when the environment is with regulation to such a degree that no undignified activity is, essentially, possible (barring of course, warping, etc). My reference was to the general realm/flow of gameplay relative to the aforementioned aspects of conversation, not the game in its entirety. But it is the truth, when you can engage in a means of immersive, consumer-involved entertainment without the need for regulation beyond capability, that is definitively the <b>best</b> game.

Greenion
02-22-2007, 12:09 AM
<span style="color: #339900">um...ya, thats what i thought he meant.</span>

HerbertWalker
02-22-2007, 12:20 AM
<p>Certainly, relying on others to obey an honor code or display sportsmanship is very naive when playing a MMO.</p><p>Works in backyard sports, though.</p>

DankShasta
02-22-2007, 11:16 AM
<cite>Kurindor_Mythecnea wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darthus wrote:</cite><blockquote>Can you help me out by pointing out the subject, the verb, the direct object etc? I think I see 2 verbs. Maybe: It is not one's concern where legitimacy in a particular variety is had. ? I don't even see what "sought" is referring to. </blockquote> It's just a complex compound sentence. Surprisingly it has good fluidity, although whether you caught it I'm unsure. "It is not one's concern where legitimacy is had in a particular variety sought." Sought is a predicate adjective to "variety", it's just further adorning the meaning being conveyed here. The particular variety I had sought (which had been of legitimacy) need not be with another's concern. </blockquote><p>  No your wrong. No english professor would aprove of the above, and as always your way too wordy for anyone to consider your dribble "fluid"   Your style of posting is the equivalent of typed flaculence.  You think your William Faulkner? When you must constantly explain your "adorning" of sentences, then you've  completely failed to communicate, right? This despite your consistent use of double the words needed to be understood, and articulate. These are nots the words of an intellectual, they are the words of the village idiot.</p><p>     Of course the village idiot's ignorance is only exceeded by his conviction displayed when refuting all others, in his claims of intelligence.</p><p>   Much like the conviction you show trying to convince us, that the your somehow good at PvP, when you roll around on a 22 SK fabled out.</p><p>   I think you really believe yourself. Your use of the emglish language is horrible! I don't claim to be an expert on englidh, but I am quite well read, and trust me, your horrible. You can't just cram a bunch of words on a page, because the laws of english say they will work  together, and then assume the reader's shortcomings have made it unintellible to him. The reason nobody understands your ramblings, is because they are so badly crafted. Just a mismatch of words, that have good uses, all of which are unknown to you.</p>

Eluzay
02-22-2007, 11:44 AM
<cite>DankShasta wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kurindor_Mythecnea wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darthus wrote:</cite><blockquote>Can you help me out by pointing out the subject, the verb, the direct object etc? I think I see 2 verbs. Maybe: It is not one's concern where legitimacy in a particular variety is had. ? I don't even see what "sought" is referring to. </blockquote> It's just a complex compound sentence. Surprisingly it has good fluidity, although whether you caught it I'm unsure. "It is not one's concern where legitimacy is had in a particular variety sought." Sought is a predicate adjective to "variety", it's just further adorning the meaning being conveyed here. The particular variety I had sought (which had been of legitimacy) need not be with another's concern. </blockquote><p>  No your wrong. No english professor would aprove of the above, and as always your way too wordy for anyone to consider your dribble "fluid"   Your style of posting is the equivalent of typed flaculence.  You think your William Faulkner? When you must constantly explain your "adorning" of sentences, then you've  completely failed to communicate, right? This despite your consistent use of double the words needed to be understood, and articulate. These are nots the words of an intellectual, they are the words of the village idiot.</p><p>     Of course the village idiot's ignorance is only exceeded by his conviction displayed when refuting all others, in his claims of intelligence.</p><p>   <span style="font-size: small"><span style="color: #990066">Much like the conviction you show trying to convince us, that the your somehow good at PvP, when you roll around on a 22 SK fabled out.</span></span></p><p>   I think you really believe yourself. Your use of the emglish language is horrible! I don't claim to be an expert on englidh, but I am quite well read, and trust me, your horrible. You can't just cram a bunch of words on a page, because the laws of english say they will work  together, and then assume the reader's shortcomings have made it unintellible to him. The reason nobody understands your ramblings, is because they are so badly crafted. Just a mismatch of words, that have good uses, all of which are unknown to you.</p></blockquote>roflol this comeinf from dank pots and kettles people in glass houses and stones

ckl
02-22-2007, 12:22 PM
<p>Dank may be a twink. He may type with a disregard for spelling and grammar. His posts are more readable, though, than the one with diarrhea of the keyboard. I also have interminably more respect for him because the class he plays doesn't have an "I win" button. </p><p>Dank is far from throwing stones in a glass house on this one. Trust me.</p>

Eluzay
02-22-2007, 12:57 PM
<cite>cklab wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Dank may be a twink. He may type with a disregard for spelling and grammar. His posts are more readable, though, than the one with diarrhea of the keyboard. I also have interminably more respect for him because the class he plays doesn't have an "I win" button. </p><p>Dank is far from throwing stones in a glass house on this one. Trust me.</p></blockquote> its a good thing your opinion means about nothing lol

Killque
02-22-2007, 01:16 PM
<cite>Eluzay wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>cklab wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Dank may be a twink. He may type with a disregard for spelling and grammar. His posts are more readable, though, than the one with diarrhea of the keyboard. I also have interminably more respect for him because the class he plays doesn't have an "I win" button. </p><p>Dank is far from throwing stones in a glass house on this one. Trust me.</p></blockquote> its a good thing your opinion means about nothing lol </blockquote> Dude your loosing. Just stop while your behind. End this crap.

Eluzay
02-22-2007, 01:19 PM
<cite>Killque wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Eluzay wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>cklab wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Dank may be a twink. He may type with a disregard for spelling and grammar. His posts are more readable, though, than the one with diarrhea of the keyboard. I also have interminably more respect for him because the class he plays doesn't have an "I win" button. </p><p>Dank is far from throwing stones in a glass house on this one. Trust me.</p></blockquote> its a good thing your opinion means about nothing lol </blockquote> Dude your loosing. Just stop while your behind. End this crap.</blockquote>I am loosing? how do you figure? what am I loosing?

Zexxii
02-22-2007, 03:52 PM
<cite>HerbertWalker wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Certainly, relying on others to obey an honor code or display sportsmanship is very naive when playing a MMO.</p><p>Works in backyard sports, though.</p></blockquote><p> i'm not saying getting the whole server is possible, but we can certainly start with any of our peers that we see engaging at the very minimum, griefing, to help alleviate the trouble with all the twinks in every tier that drive folks from the tier or the game</p><p> i know i consistently tell folks, leave him alone, you already got him, just be mindful of where he is and what he's doing, the only trouble is, well so and so didn't get credit.....and some folks you just MUST grief, but there's a relationship there, not a new encounter</p><p>starting some sort of honor code, where it seems to be missing, is the point, w/e honor the server may think should exist</p>

Darthus
02-22-2007, 03:55 PM
Ok, enough with the [Removed for Content] measuring and back to the topic. =) I agree that a game shouldn't have to rely on "sportsmanship" for its PvP to be enjoyable. The game should be structured in such a way that even if people aren't sportmanlike, the game will correct itself. The difference is, in a lot of other PvP MMOs, Shadowbane, WoW etc, the game is more or less balanced at the lower levels. If you encounter a level 25 in WoW and you're level 26, you have a good idea of how hard he will be to kill. If a 35 attacks you, you know you're screwed. Nobody is being sportsmanlike, but at least levels mean something, and hence you don't get Honor for killing people way below you. Gear is pretty important in WoW as well, it's just that this insane level locking doesn't occur, because either people would rather level up, or they're forced to level up. In every game at max level you will encounter insane gear tweakers. I know plenty of people who got 60 in WoW before the expansion and were just destroyed with no chance by the people who'd been putting in crazy time raiding to get gear. The point is, that takes a lot of time, and not everyone will be that way. When you add in being able to get PvP gear as rewards, it can even out against the raiders. But the problem we have here is that in EQ2 people are encountering this insane uber twinking at way before 70 because the game allows you to create an environment where essentially you have hit max level, as people have mentioned, except you're level 15, so it's much easier to tweak your guy out. I've never seen another MMO do this before. I have a couple suggestions. I don't think any of the "PvE experience should be less" etc which change the overall structure of the game are good for dealing with this problem. However, I think for one, if you choose to turn off combat xp, your level range should be greatly expanded from 4 levels. (Of course make it so you can only switch on and off combat xp maybe once every couple hours of playtime to avoid people exploiting this). The consensus is that if someone has combat XP turned off on a PvP server, it's 90% chance they're level locking and not just trying to enjoy the game at a slower pace as it was originally intended. If this idea is not palatable, since it doesn't really address the core issue of level locking at low levels throwing huge imbalances in PvP, then at the very very least, you should be able to see in someone's name if their combat XP is turned off, to give you an idea of who the level lockers are and avoid them. One step up from that is for them to change one of the 3 PvP servers to a server with a ruleset that turning off combat XP is not allowed. Then people would have an option, perhaps Venekor, since it's supposed to be the "rp" server. I suppose you'd need to make a new server though, since otherwise the level lockers would already exist. I also think getting XP for PvP kills regardless of whether or not you're level locked makes sense. Level lockers, I understand your plight. You think this type of gameplay is fun, and you don't want it taken away from you. But everyone needs to understand that every solution we're offering here is going to make level locking either harder to do or less appealing. Our goal is obviously to make level locking happen less, since we agree it is bad for new players enjoying the PvP game. So either, we get rid of level locking in some fashion, and the lockers be damned, or we create a separate environment where people can go where level locking isn't possible, and label the level locking server so that new players can know to avoid it if they don't want that experience.

ckl
02-22-2007, 05:14 PM
<cite>Darthus wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok, enough with the [Removed for Content] measuring and back to the topic. =) I agree that a game shouldn't have to rely on "sportsmanship" for its PvP to be enjoyable. The game should be structured in such a way that even if people aren't sportmanlike, the game will correct itself. The difference is, in a lot of other PvP MMOs, Shadowbane, WoW etc, the game is more or less balanced at the lower levels. If you encounter a level 25 in WoW and you're level 26, you have a good idea of how hard he will be to kill. If a 35 attacks you, you know you're screwed. Nobody is being sportsmanlike, but at least levels mean something, and hence you don't get Honor for killing people way below you. Gear is pretty important in WoW as well, it's just that this insane level locking doesn't occur, because either people would rather level up, or they're forced to level up. In every game at max level you will encounter insane gear tweakers. I know plenty of people who got 60 in WoW before the expansion and were just destroyed with no chance by the people who'd been putting in crazy time raiding to get gear. The point is, that takes a lot of time, and not everyone will be that way. When you add in being able to get PvP gear as rewards, it can even out against the raiders. But the problem we have here is that in EQ2 people are encountering this insane uber twinking at way before 70 because the game allows you to create an environment where essentially you have hit max level, as people have mentioned, except you're level 15, so it's much easier to tweak your guy out. I've never seen another MMO do this before. I have a couple suggestions. I don't think any of the "PvE experience should be less" etc which change the overall structure of the game are good for dealing with this problem. However, I think for one, if you choose to turn off combat xp, your level range should be greatly expanded from 4 levels. (Of course make it so you can only switch on and off combat xp maybe once every couple hours of playtime to avoid people exploiting this). The consensus is that if someone has combat XP turned off on a PvP server, it's 90% chance they're level locking and not just trying to enjoy the game at a slower pace as it was originally intended. If this idea is not palatable, since it doesn't really address the core issue of level locking at low levels throwing huge imbalances in PvP, then at the very very least, you should be able to see in someone's name if their combat XP is turned off, to give you an idea of who the level lockers are and avoid them. One step up from that is for them to change one of the 3 PvP servers to a server with a ruleset that turning off combat XP is not allowed. Then people would have an option, perhaps Venekor, since it's supposed to be the "rp" server. I suppose you'd need to make a new server though, since otherwise the level lockers would already exist. I also think getting XP for PvP kills regardless of whether or not you're level locked makes sense. Level lockers, I understand your plight. You think this type of gameplay is fun, and you don't want it taken away from you. But everyone needs to understand that every solution we're offering here is going to make level locking either harder to do or less appealing. Our goal is obviously to make level locking happen less, since we agree it is bad for new players enjoying the PvP game. So either, we get rid of level locking in some fashion, and the lockers be damned, or we create a separate environment where people can go where level locking isn't possible, and label the level locking server so that new players can know to avoid it if they don't want that experience. </blockquote><p> Why all this talk of toning down an already softcore pvp system? Why not, instead of removing level locking on a new server, just institute a free for all, factionless ruleset? I think that's the consensus on the best choice to remedy what you all seem to perceive a problem. </p><p>If you enjoy pvp--which you should, considering the server type you play--then there really is no downside to level locking to pvp. It takes quite less time to gear yourself out at level 16, 24 or 44 than it does at level 70. There are plenty more people to kill as well, twinks or otherwise. In a pve game that for some reason added a pvp server, please don't penalize those of us who wish to skip the endless pve raids acquiring gear to be competetive. I'm perfectly content selling tier 2 armor and adornments on the broker and buying the fabled gear/masters I find for my level 16 so that I may pvp against others who do the same.</p>

Strums
02-22-2007, 05:25 PM
<cite>cklab wrote:</cite><blockquote>Cklab wrote: <p> Why all this talk of toning down an already softcore pvp system? Why not, instead of removing level locking on a new server, just institute a free for all, factionless ruleset? I think that's the consensus on the best choice to remedy what you all seem to perceive a problem. </p><p>If you enjoy pvp--which you should, considering the server type you play--then there really is no downside to level locking to pvp. It takes quite less time to gear yourself out at level 16, 24 or 44 than it does at level 70. There are plenty more people to kill as well, twinks or otherwise. In a pve game that for some reason added a pvp server, please don't penalize those of us who wish to skip the endless pve raids acquiring gear to be competetive. I'm perfectly content selling tier 2 armor and adornments on the broker and buying the fabled gear/masters I find for my level 16 so that I may pvp against others who do the same.</p></blockquote><p>That seems very selfish.  Sure, keep the lvl lockers and run off all the new players because YOU are affraid to pvp in T7.  I can see your point that YOU do not have the time to invest in pve raiding for the T7 "twink" gear, so for YOU it is easyer to just gear up at lvl 15 then gank noobs who havent a clue.   Is that pvp?  No sir!  Not in my book.</p><p>You sir are not the only person who hasent the time to PVE raid for T7 "twink" gear.  If people were not allowed to lvl lock, then their would be a TON of pvp in T7 and not everyone would be twinked.  Their would still be pvp...Now granid, you probably wont be getting all your 1shot kills on the noobs and what not, and YOU might auctuly have to earn some kills instead of feeding off the new playersand their lack of gear and knowledge of getting it.  Why not turn the lvl locking off, lvl up, and play the game!  Dont hide behind your lowbie in twinked gear and run off all the new commers to the server.  </p>

Killque
02-22-2007, 06:12 PM
<p>Whos selfish now? Apprantly you have an agenda to get the entire server to level 70.</p><p>No sir, the current system is fine.</p>

Darthus
02-22-2007, 06:48 PM
<blockquote>Whos selfish now? Apprantly you have an agenda to get the entire server to level 70.</blockquote> Umm... wasn't that the intent of the game in the first place? The point is, when levelling up, the PvP would be balanced, there wouldn't be people stuck in some artificial state where they are ridiculously overpowere for their level. In every MMO it's like that. Before max level, the main distinguisher in power is level. At max level, the main distinguisher is gear. You have no more levels to gain, so that is the point where you begin tweaking out your character to its limit with gear. Doing that at level 12 while purposely not levelling to exploit the fact that only people within 4 levels of you can attack you is exploiting the system, that's all. And there is no harm in exploiting the system, except when people who think they're actually going to be playing an MMO where you level up and PvP along the way are sorely mistaken. Newbies included. It's time to admit that level locking has created an artificial game that was not intended by the developers, and as such has driven away everyone except those who buy into that game whole hog. The answer of "Play the game in the hardcore way we've created or take off" just doesn't cut it if you actually want new people to play.

Killque
02-22-2007, 07:25 PM
<cite>Darthus wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote>Whos selfish now? Apprantly you have an agenda to get the entire server to level 70.</blockquote> Umm... wasn't that the intent of the game in the first place? The point is, when levelling up, the PvP would be balanced, there wouldn't be people stuck in some artificial state where they are ridiculously overpowere for their level. In every MMO it's like that. Before max level, the main distinguisher in power is level. At max level, the main distinguisher is gear. You have no more levels to gain, so that is the point where you begin tweaking out your character to its limit with gear. Doing that at level 12 while purposely not levelling to exploit the fact that only people within 4 levels of you can attack you is exploiting the system, that's all. And there is no harm in exploiting the system, except when people who think they're actually going to be playing an MMO where you level up and PvP along the way are sorely mistaken. Newbies included. It's time to admit that level locking has created an artificial game that was not intended by the developers, and as such has driven away everyone except those who buy into that game whole hog. The answer of "Play the game in the hardcore way we've created or take off" just doesn't cut it if you actually want new people to play. </blockquote>Please show me in writing anywhere where SOE even remotely touches on your above statement/s.

Killque
02-22-2007, 07:27 PM
<cite>Darthus wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote>Whos selfish now? Apprantly you have an agenda to get the entire server to level 70.</blockquote><p> <b>Umm... wasn't that the intent of the game in the first place?</b> </p></blockquote><p>No, it isnt.  I am sorry you were misslead when you purchased the game.</p><p>Edit - </p><p>If the entire intent of the game was to level as fast as you can to level 70 and then and only then twink out your toon, they sure spent a whole lotta time developing game content for everyone under 70.</p><p>Strange you should mention this, I would like to know what % of the game you think is for T7 vs T0-6</p>

Greenion
02-22-2007, 07:28 PM
<p><span style="color: #339900"> </span><span style="color: #ffffff">Please show me in writing anywhere where SOE even remotely touches on your above statement/s. </span></p><p><span style="color: #339900">thatd be in the same game policy chapter as them making greenion the mayor of rivervale and adding in pigs as flying mounts...</span></p><p><span style="color: #339900"><span style="color: #999900">edit</span><span style="color: #00ff00">></span> z<span style="color: #00ff00">...</span>oinkz</span><span style="color: #00ff00"><b><u>.</u></b></span></p>

HerbertWalker
02-22-2007, 09:22 PM
<p>Adventure Level is not an accurate measure of how tough your character is.  So why then is Adventure Level the measure that is used by the game to determine who you can and cannot kill?</p><p> Even Adventure Level + Achievement Level is not an accurate measure of your toughness, as gear plays a factor.  Since the game is probably not smart enough to accurately gauge our toughness according to our gear, let's ignore that variable.  But at least Level + AA is more accurate than Adventure Level alone.</p><p>I'm out in T4 ganking reds solo.  Shouldn't those reds actually con blue or green to me?  They aren't very tough to kill.</p>

Darthus
02-22-2007, 10:27 PM
<cite>Killque wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darthus wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote>Whos selfish now? Apprantly you have an agenda to get the entire server to level 70.</blockquote><p> <b>Umm... wasn't that the intent of the game in the first place?</b> </p></blockquote><p>No, it isnt.  I am sorry you were misslead when you purchased the game.</p><p>Edit - </p><p>If the entire intent of the game was to level as fast as you can to level 70 and then and only then twink out your toon, they sure spent a whole lotta time developing game content for everyone under 70.</p><p>Strange you should mention this, I would like to know what % of the game you think is for T7 vs T0-6</p></blockquote><p>I never said level as fast as you can to 70. But yes, the majority of the game's design and emphasis went into creating content for players to experience as they levelled their character from 1 to 70. Then they created endgame instances and raid content for level 70 players to experience.</p><p>Take a look at the game, that's how it's structured. But really, who cares? I wouldn't have a problem with someone ignoring the entire game and jumping up and down on top of a rock if that's what they thought was fun. It's when that fun, which is not the intended design of the game, ruins fun for a large portion of the rest of the player population. This is exactly what level locking is. </p>

HerbertWalker
02-23-2007, 01:43 AM
<p>I assume the devs were thinking about replayability when they decided to allow combat experience to be disabled on a PvP server.  Perhaps you are right that they should also think about new subscribers.  But to totally discount the fun that an old subscriber can have with his new twink would be foolish.  This company continues its tradition of focusing on maintaining its long time subscribers.</p><p> We knew it would be that way, and so many of us joined the game on Day One.  In EQ3 we will do the same thing.  It's not a horrible business model.</p>

Radigazt
02-23-2007, 01:50 AM
<cite>Darthus wrote:</cite><blockquote>The problem with that though, is that it exacerbates the problem. The issue is that playing the actual game and progressing is not encouraged on a PvP server because of the rampant twinking and level locking. It means PvP is rare at high levels and is only viable at low levels if you level lock. So just telling everyone to stop advancing, make a new guy and level lock him, so that that is a chance as a new player that you'll have some help, doesn't really address the issue. It still encourages people to level lock, meaning PvP would still be rare at high levels, and there would actually be more people level locking and rampantly ganking newbies. The mentoring idea holds some merit because it allows people to actually level up and play the game. They can then mentor to a smaller person and help them with level lockers. The level lockers still can tweak out their guys and have their epic battles with other level lockers if that's what they dig. But it means that it all of a sudden becomes viable to level up and not level lock, and still have a chance of some fun PvP. This would have two effects. It would mean you could continue playing your main character as normal, enjoying the content, and deal with level lockers, without having to abandon it, stop your progression and make a level locked alt. Also, since levelling up would now be viable again, it would revitalize the higher level PvP and at the same time make level locking as a method of simply being powerful less enjoyable, meaning there would be more higher level people and less ganking level lockers. This would both decrease the newbies getting ganked by twinks, since they would have protection from people who don't have to give up their characters in order to do so, and would decrease the amount of twinks to gank them. </blockquote><p>I want to help you as much as possible Darthus, and I both sympathize with you and agree with you for the most part.  But, I'd like to point out that the exact purpose of a PvP server may be somewhat open to interpretation.  </p><p>For me, I would never have come to EQ2 without PvP.  The PvE just doesn't interest me enough.  I only joined the EQ2 community about a month before the PvP servers went live--but after they were announced.  I spent that month learning the game, purely in anticipation of PvP.  The night before the PvP servers opened, I deleted all of my characters on the non-PvP servers.  You could call me a serious PvP'er, and I wouldn't disagree with that ... but for me, it's a PvP server first, and an EQ2 server second.  I completely disagree with your statement that "playing the actual game and progressing is not encouraged on a PvP server" because to me, the game is PvP, first, foremost, and most importantly.  I've yet to find scripted AI that is persistantly thrilling.  PvP is always thrilling because of the human opponent.  </p><p>Yes, the current EQ2 PvP system discourages leveling up, because the PvP is watered down in the higher tiers--fewer people, more evac'ing, people doing instances, and the few people that are around to PvP tend to either be intent on grinding up their levels or raiding PvE content or raid up to PvP.  All of those things detract from actually PvP'ing.  Then, it's so difficult to gear out well at the higher tiers, that the gear difference is also great.  So, if what you truly want to do is PvP, why waste so much time, effort and money just to level up to a tier where the PvP is less common and less fun?  It doesn't take long to level up to 20, and not very long to hit 30.  Heck, the 40's doesn't take too much time either.  But, by the time you hit level 50, the leveling comes very very very slowly, so if you want T6 and T7 PvP, you absolutely must put in a TON of time to PvE ... something I find far less rewarding.  Plus, I find the most populated tiers for PvP being T3 and T2.  I find T3 and T4 to be the most fun, but the targets start really getting scarce in T4.  T5 everyone's in instances trying to level up to 70.  T6 takes a long time to grind through and you're constantly being ganked by fabled-0ut 70's.  Then, when you reach 70, they avoid you like the plague unless they're got you out-geared, outnumbered, engaged with a mob, or they're next to a portal.  No-risk PvP predominates, and it means that the PvP is quite frustrating when you spend a half-hour to find it, and they just zone into an instance, portal away, or evac when they see you on track.  I just don't see the appeal of end-game PvP.  So, the solution has been to choose to prioritize PvP over leveling.  I would rather the two not conflict, but given that the Devs prioritize PvE, they're not going to change PvP mentoring becasue they don't want to change it on the PvE side ... I'm not sure when/if we'll get fair mentoring.  </p><p>Time.  Everyone has their own ideas, but I have characters locked for PvP in tiers 2, 3, 4 and 6.  I deleted my tier 7 character because I just didn't enjoy T7 PvP, even with having a good title despite horrible gear and combat arts.  I put a ton of time into leveling him up ... and I realized that I didn't enjoy it and all of that time was wasted.  Without a valid mentoring system, I'm just not going to waste time leveling up anymore.  I may add a T5 level-locked PvP toon, but I kinda doubt it.  I'm more likely to delete my T6 guy and reroll another T3 PvP toon.  See, I'm not a casual PvP'er, and the vast majority of PvP'ers aren't casual about it.  The market for PvP in every game, is a hard-core market for people who are fanatically interested in PvP'ing.  So, if there is an advantage to be had, they'll take it.  Nobody wants to be unable to farm nameds or have to run off every pve mob they encounter just to prevent leveling too high to PvP witih their friends.  We see level-locking as a good thing, and our only wish was that we could completely turn off XP so that we didn't get any from quests or explorations.  We want to spend our time doing one thing ... PvP'ing as much as possible.  The most PvP is found in T2 and T3, which is why people level-lock there.  We fanatical PvP'ers are going to take advantage of everything we can (although I don't have any adornments and have never done a diety quest for any blessings/miracles ... but I always try to twink out with Mastercrafted armor).  </p>

Radigazt
02-23-2007, 02:00 AM
<cite>Killque wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>For thoes of you who are whineing for the level locking to end, you have no idea what is waiting for you in t7.</p><p> I dont want to progress to t7.  Not yet anyway. I want to do it at my own pace.</p><p>If you dont lock now, gear/aa up, and you hit level 60 <b>you </b>are going to be the one crying....</p><p> You think the twinks are bad T2-T4, HA! You aint seen nothing yet.</p></blockquote><p> Quoted for Truth.  </p><p>Just so you know, the Mastercrafted is way better than the Treasured stuff in T7 too, the only difference is that the Mastercrafted is absolute crap compared to the ultra-uber gear the T7's have via raids and PvP tokens.  To get the PvP token gear you have to amass a lot of T7 kills ... the only problem is that all the T7 people are in raiding guilds and give their level 60-69's the raid drops they don't need ... making them quite a bit better than a Mastercrafted twink.  So, getting that gear, you'll need to raid for pre-PvP-Token gear.  And if you think some of the lower tier pvp'ers use cheesy tactics, wait until you see an entire guild camping every cloud island in a zone and the revive points.  You engage 1 guy in PvP and 13 of his buddies cloud in after you're engaged.  Not all that fun IMHO.  </p>

Darthus
02-23-2007, 02:46 AM
<p>See Radigazt, everyone has their own definition of what PvP means. I consider myself an avid advocate of PvP as well. I am a moderator on Pker.org, and have been for years, I post daily. I play PvP for the challenge of facing a human opponent, competing skill and tactics vs skill and tacics. I play PvP for the increased interaction and the deepening of the game which occurs only when you have conflict with another human being.</p><p>So I agree with you on that front. We don't need to concede that the priority should be on allowing people to level from 1-70 and PvP at 70 unprovoked. I personally don't want that. I've played nearly every MMO that's been released, but I've never reached max level in one. That just doesn't interest me. I play more to experience the content, to PvP and to experience the interactions with other players that come out of that. I do NOT play to spend months tweaking my guy, searching for the best gear, remaking him so I can have the perfect AA distribution in relation to level. I am a casual player in the time I can allocate to MMOs these days, but I consider myself as having a hardcore PvP ethic. I'm for as full loot as you can, I'm for consequences, I'm [Removed for Content] that you can't talk to the people you kill in EQ2.</p><p>But for me, and other PvPers like me, level locking ruins all this. Sure, fighting at tier 7 against insane PvEers with crazy gear may not be fun. But that doesn't mean the best solution is to make it so the real PvP is at level 10-30, and force everyone to level lock in order to compete. Level locking absolutely kills PvP for people that either don't have a lot of time to devote to the game, or like to mix both PvP and PvE. Or even those that don't like PvE, but enjoy getting new abilities etc.</p><p>The options shouldn't be "Broken unbalanced PvP at level 70 or level locking". What happened to just PvPing as you run around? What happened to PvP being based mostly on player skill? Level locking, when Gildorath can do 80 damage a hit to me, and I do 1-4 a hit to him, completely destroys the player skill aspect. It only returns when you've devoted the time an energy to tweaking your character to the level that that other person has. At least in a normal MMO you may encounter people with better gear and it gives them an edge for devoting the time and energy, but doesn't make them invincible.</p><p>It's the exact same argument against making PvE level the ruling force in PvP. It rewards time and dedication over skill. This isn't to say you level lockers aren't skilled PvPers, it just means that a level locker vs a non-level locker isn't even a fight. That is ridiculous, and that is what is killing the game for new players. It's a "Level lock, devote as much time as we have or get out" mentality, straight out of the gate.</p><p>If you couldn't level lock, you could still float around in the 30s if thats where you wanted to PvP, just stop killing stuff. But at least it would make it so you couldn't make yourself this insanely artificially inflated level 32. You'd just be a stronger than normal level 32, because you've put time and thought into it, as opposed to someone who's just straight up levelling, which is how it should be.</p>

DankShasta
02-23-2007, 11:56 AM
<cite>Eluzay wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>DankShasta wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kurindor_Mythecnea wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darthus wrote:</cite><blockquote>Can you help me out by pointing out the subject, the verb, the direct object etc? I think I see 2 verbs. Maybe: It is not one's concern where legitimacy in a particular variety is had. ? I don't even see what "sought" is referring to. </blockquote> It's just a complex compound sentence. Surprisingly it has good fluidity, although whether you caught it I'm unsure. "It is not one's concern where legitimacy is had in a particular variety sought." Sought is a predicate adjective to "variety", it's just further adorning the meaning being conveyed here. The particular variety I had sought (which had been of legitimacy) need not be with another's concern. </blockquote><p>  No your wrong. No english professor would aprove of the above, and as always your way too wordy for anyone to consider your dribble "fluid"   Your style of posting is the equivalent of typed flaculence.  You think your William Faulkner? When you must constantly explain your "adorning" of sentences, then you've  completely failed to communicate, right? This despite your consistent use of double the words needed to be understood, and articulate. These are nots the words of an intellectual, they are the words of the village idiot.</p><p>     Of course the village idiot's ignorance is only exceeded by his conviction displayed when refuting all others, in his claims of intelligence.</p><p>   <span style="font-size: small"><span style="color: #990066">Much like the conviction you show trying to convince us, that the your somehow good at PvP, when you roll around on a 22 SK fabled out.</span></span></p><p>   I think you really believe yourself. Your use of the emglish language is horrible! I don't claim to be an expert on englidh, but I am quite well read, and trust me, your horrible. You can't just cram a bunch of words on a page, because the laws of english say they will work  together, and then assume the reader's shortcomings have made it unintellible to him. The reason nobody understands your ramblings, is because they are so badly crafted. Just a mismatch of words, that have good uses, all of which are unknown to you.</p></blockquote>roflol this comeinf from dank pots and kettles people in glass houses and stones </blockquote><p>  The only toon I ever locked was a t5 Troubador. That has really nothing to do with these t3 Sks, and Furys. At lvl 46 my BIGGEST DAMAGE SPELL does less than 1/2 what a t3 Strike of Thunder does.    I didnt have time to go t7, and I still never want to join one of the big guilds. I'm still the Troubador who solos, as i solo on all my toons. Yeah ytou got to t7 on your SK, and you got a whole 1700 kills, bravo. Minus the HTs, and you got how many? About 12? I have heard all about you, sir!</p><p>   When i was in t3 I never realized how ridiculous the SKs, and Furies were cuz I didnt lock there. I think after lvl 30 the twinks are just more targets. My advice to everyone is lvl the hell out of t3. Thats were the worst of it is.  If you get sick of that clown Seliri and company just lvl. You'll never see them again! With the new 4 lvl zones, you'll never get to kill him either, but who cares? Let him stay in t3, riding griffs while waiting on HT to come back up. It is a horrible way to play. For someone who thinks himself bright, Seliri is very easily amused. T3  is like the mobile over a babys crib. Yeah, for an as yet, undeveloped mind, it offers both fun, and satisfaction, but anyone past the mental age of 7, will learn the game, and become bored quickly, yearning for more content and challenges.</p><p>    So I say just lvl, and leave them all behind! </p>

Killque
02-23-2007, 12:08 PM
<p>Even with the removed level locking you would fly up in level if you PvP even a little. PvP Experience is way better than PvE.</p><p> Without level locking this game would be pretty boring.</p><p>T7 reminds me of the southpark WoW video.</p>

baddogshaun
02-23-2007, 12:30 PM
I think he is right. I have just level locked and am trying to "twink" my assassin daaza on nagafen (and stop laughing the ones who have killed me like I was made of tissue paper) not because its what I really prefer as an idea, but because I am coming to view it as the only way to actually participate in the game on a pvp server.. oh I could "level through it" but that would feel like sidestepping the game not participating in it.

ckl
02-23-2007, 12:48 PM
<cite>Strums wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>cklab wrote:</cite><blockquote>Cklab wrote: <p> Why all this talk of toning down an already softcore pvp system? Why not, instead of removing level locking on a new server, just institute a free for all, factionless ruleset? I think that's the consensus on the best choice to remedy what you all seem to perceive a problem. </p><p>If you enjoy pvp--which you should, considering the server type you play--then there really is no downside to level locking to pvp. It takes quite less time to gear yourself out at level 16, 24 or 44 than it does at level 70. There are plenty more people to kill as well, twinks or otherwise. In a pve game that for some reason added a pvp server, please don't penalize those of us who wish to skip the endless pve raids acquiring gear to be competetive. I'm perfectly content selling tier 2 armor and adornments on the broker and buying the fabled gear/masters I find for my level 16 so that I may pvp against others who do the same.</p></blockquote><p>That seems very selfish.  Sure, keep the lvl lockers and run off all the new players because YOU are affraid to pvp in T7.  I can see your point that YOU do not have the time to invest in pve raiding for the T7 "twink" gear, so for YOU it is easyer to just gear up at lvl 15 then gank noobs who havent a clue.   Is that pvp?  No sir!  Not in my book.</p><p>You sir are not the only person who hasent the time to PVE raid for T7 "twink" gear.  If people were not allowed to lvl lock, then their would be a TON of pvp in T7 and not everyone would be twinked.  Their would still be pvp...Now granid, you probably wont be getting all your 1shot kills on the noobs and what not, and YOU might auctuly have to earn some kills instead of feeding off the new playersand their lack of gear and knowledge of getting it.  Why not turn the lvl locking off, lvl up, and play the game!  Dont hide behind your lowbie in twinked gear and run off all the new commers to the server.  </p></blockquote><p> I'm afraid of tier 7 pvp? What makes you think that? I'll list for you my level 50, champion level 5, realm rank 5+ characters in Dark Age of Camelot, my former 7x GM characters in Ultima Online, my level 220 characters in Anarchy Online, if you like. Just because in this game I have chosen to bypass yet another insipid, uninspired pve system does not mean I'm lazy or cowardly. I simply did a cost-benefit analysis of my time and spending another 50 plus hours doing yet another leveling/gear treadmill isn't worth my time. </p><p>For the record, my level 16 is now a champion and probably close to dreadnaught. Your argument that I only kill people new to the game is about as sound as your grammar, spelling and punctuation. There are plenty of other twinks to fight. . . if there weren't there would be no point. Thank you for visually serenading me with your prodigious ignorance.</p>

Kurindor_Mythecnea
02-23-2007, 12:53 PM
DankShasta wrote: <blockquote><cite>Kurindor_Mythecnea wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darthus wrote:</cite><blockquote>Can you help me out by pointing out the subject, the verb, the direct object etc? I think I see 2 verbs. Maybe: It is not one's concern where legitimacy in a particular variety is had. ? I don't even see what "sought" is referring to. </blockquote> It's just a complex compound sentence. Surprisingly it has good fluidity, although whether you caught it I'm unsure. "It is not one's concern where legitimacy is had in a particular variety sought." Sought is a predicate adjective to "variety", it's just further adorning the meaning being conveyed here. The particular variety I had sought (which had been of legitimacy) need not be with another's concern. </blockquote><p>  No your wrong. No english professor would aprove of the above, and as always your way too wordy for anyone to consider your dribble "fluid"   Your style of posting is the equivalent of typed flaculence.  You think your William Faulkner? When you must constantly explain your "adorning" of sentences, then you've  completely failed to communicate, right? This despite your consistent use of double the words needed to be understood, and articulate. These are nots the words of an intellectual, they are the words of the village idiot.</p><p>     Of course the village idiot's ignorance is only exceeded by his conviction displayed when refuting all others, in his claims of intelligence.</p><p>   Much like the conviction you show trying to convince us, that the your somehow good at PvP, when you roll around on a 22 SK fabled out.</p><p>   I think you really believe yourself. Your use of the emglish language is horrible! I don't claim to be an expert on englidh, but I am quite well read, and trust me, your horrible. You can't just cram a bunch of words on a page, because the laws of english say they will work  together, and then assume the reader's shortcomings have made it unintellible to him. The reason nobody understands your ramblings, is because they are so badly crafted. Just a mismatch of words, that have good uses, all of which are unknown to you.</p></blockquote> Lol. That sentence was "too wordy" for you? Wow. What f***ing school did YOU go to? You're so inept you can't even properly associate definitions to what you would like to refer to as your vocabulary. This is the first time, ever, someone has asked for clarification on the forums. Really, I just must be constantly detailing each and every form of exposition I make. You love to suppose fallacy to behold the status of truth and then relish in your "analysis" as if it actually held anything beyond an awesome grip on fecal excrement. Really, form a sentence for me like the one Darthus had a qualm with and try to tell me you can do it in a more succinct and sleek form. It's almost shameful to even discuss this simply because you have insecurities about competence. Guess what? The English makes sense, you have some superficial centrality for superiority and, for some reason, just can't cope with the styling I opt for conveyance. Sure, attribute my selections as a "mismatch", but the fact that every time your attempted citations fail to properly isolate for all my failing in such cases, you show yourself as little else than a fool. <cite>HerbertWalker wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Adventure Level is not an accurate measure of how tough your character is.  So why then is Adventure Level the measure that is used by the game to determine who you can and cannot kill?</p><p> Even Adventure Level + Achievement Level is not an accurate measure of your toughness, as gear plays a factor.  Since the game is probably not smart enough to accurately gauge our toughness according to our gear, let's ignore that variable.  But at least Level + AA is more accurate than Adventure Level alone.</p><p>I'm out in T4 ganking reds solo.  Shouldn't those reds actually con blue or green to me?  They aren't very tough to kill.</p></blockquote>The consideration function stands to operate as an icon for their potential power, not their actual. I <i>think</i> if you actually utilize the consider command, it will do a rough estimate, but maybe (or probably) not, I'm just not sure. Because of the disparity for capacity, the con color system maintains. <cite>DankShasta wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Eluzay wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>DankShasta wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kurindor_Mythecnea wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darthus wrote:</cite><blockquote>Can you help me out by pointing out the subject, the verb, the direct object etc? I think I see 2 verbs. Maybe: It is not one's concern where legitimacy in a particular variety is had. ? I don't even see what "sought" is referring to. </blockquote> It's just a complex compound sentence. Surprisingly it has good fluidity, although whether you caught it I'm unsure. "It is not one's concern where legitimacy is had in a particular variety sought." Sought is a predicate adjective to "variety", it's just further adorning the meaning being conveyed here. The particular variety I had sought (which had been of legitimacy) need not be with another's concern. </blockquote><p>  No your wrong. No english professor would aprove of the above, and as always your way too wordy for anyone to consider your dribble "fluid"   Your style of posting is the equivalent of typed flaculence.  You think your William Faulkner? When you must constantly explain your "adorning" of sentences, then you've  completely failed to communicate, right? This despite your consistent use of double the words needed to be understood, and articulate. These are nots the words of an intellectual, they are the words of the village idiot.</p><p>     Of course the village idiot's ignorance is only exceeded by his conviction displayed when refuting all others, in his claims of intelligence.</p><p>   <span style="font-size: small"><span style="color: #990066">Much like the conviction you show trying to convince us, that the your somehow good at PvP, when you roll around on a 22 SK fabled out.</span></span></p><p>   I think you really believe yourself. Your use of the emglish language is horrible! I don't claim to be an expert on englidh, but I am quite well read, and trust me, your horrible. You can't just cram a bunch of words on a page, because the laws of english say they will work  together, and then assume the reader's shortcomings have made it unintellible to him. The reason nobody understands your ramblings, is because they are so badly crafted. Just a mismatch of words, that have good uses, all of which are unknown to you.</p></blockquote>roflol this comeinf from dank pots and kettles people in glass houses and stones </blockquote><p>  The only toon I ever locked was a t5 Troubador. That has really nothing to do with these t3 Sks, and Furys. At lvl 46 my BIGGEST DAMAGE SPELL does less than 1/2 what a t3 Strike of Thunder does.    I didnt have time to go t7, and I still never want to join one of the big guilds. I'm still the Troubador who solos, as i solo on all my toons. Yeah ytou got to t7 on your SK, and you got a whole 1700 kills, bravo. Minus the HTs, and you got how many? About 12? I have heard all about you, sir!</p><p>   When i was in t3 I never realized how ridiculous the SKs, and Furies were cuz I didnt lock there. I think after lvl 30 the twinks are just more targets. My advice to everyone is lvl the hell out of t3. Thats were the worst of it is.  If you get sick of that clown Seliri and company just lvl. You'll never see them again! With the new 4 lvl zones, you'll never get to kill him either, but who cares? Let him stay in t3, riding griffs while waiting on HT to come back up. It is a horrible way to play. For someone who thinks himself bright, Seliri is very easily amused. T3  is like the mobile over a babys crib. Yeah, for an as yet, undeveloped mind, it offers both fun, and satisfaction, but anyone past the mental age of 7, will learn the game, and become bored quickly, yearning for more content and challenges.</p><p>    So I say just lvl, and leave them all behind! </p></blockquote>LOL. You're such a fool. As has been noted (and as one would suspect), the playstyle of such a toon is flee when the footing isn't of his own. I suppose such a blunt fool would never be able to properly deal with odds not always in his favor. But hey, when you have track and can pick and choose every fight, what the f*** is the difference? You think you're somehow better because during your T5-locked life you rolled with a guild who flings their "cherished members" Fabled? Wow. You are a ridiculous, ludicrous, outrageous freaking chump. No duh your advice is to level out of T3. What else would you advocate but the fleeing from something you know not how to combat. Because you are such an incapable beast, you do suggest avoidance. I do enjoy how encouraging you are when it comes to facing challenges. But really, you are also to propose my being "easily amused" and then that such a circumstance is relatable to that of an infant's optical stimulation? Such an environment as the one given is all, and far, too convoluted for you to even remotely estimate of what my experience consists. You are a simple fool -- a dull, tactless idiot professing his criticality to possess a worth far outmatching its actual impact. Your encounter with me in Antonica on a toon leveled to the top of the level range with 6+ others must greatly condense "Seliri's general involvement" to such a fantastic degree, I'm just so glad your efficacy for linear reasoning could make yet another exhibition of your wonderful codifiability. Much entertained.

ckl
02-23-2007, 12:55 PM
<cite>Darthus wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote>Whos selfish now? Apprantly you have an agenda to get the entire server to level 70.</blockquote> Umm... wasn't that the intent of the game in the first place? The point is, when levelling up, the PvP would be balanced, there wouldn't be people stuck in some artificial state where they are ridiculously overpowere for their level. In every MMO it's like that. Before max level, the main distinguisher in power is level. At max level, the main distinguisher is gear. You have no more levels to gain, so that is the point where you begin tweaking out your character to its limit with gear. Doing that at level 12 while purposely not levelling to exploit the fact that only people within 4 levels of you can attack you is exploiting the system, that's all. And there is no harm in exploiting the system, except when people who think they're actually going to be playing an MMO where you level up and PvP along the way are sorely mistaken. Newbies included. It's time to admit that level locking has created an artificial game that was not intended by the developers, and as such has driven away everyone except those who buy into that game whole hog. The answer of "Play the game in the hardcore way we've created or take off" just doesn't cut it if you actually want new people to play. </blockquote><p>You must be new to MMOs. There is no consensus point to playing them. Each person has his or her own goals and plans to execute those goals. </p><p>I also find your characterization of level locking as hardcore to be laughable. Nothing in this game can be considered hardcore as far as pvp is concerned.</p><p>People in DAOC do the same thing--they twink out characters for the low level battlegrounds and play those characters exclusively, much to the chagrin of the level 50s who believe realm vs realm is the most important aspect of the game. Though in DAOC you can avoid these people by not going to the battlegrounds, these situations in the two games are similar. If you don't like it there are ways of avoiding it and combatting it, the least effective of which is to advocate on the forums for the removal of those mechanics. </p>

ckl
02-23-2007, 12:59 PM
<cite>Radigazt wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darthus wrote:</cite><blockquote>The problem with that though, is that it exacerbates the problem. The issue is that playing the actual game and progressing is not encouraged on a PvP server because of the rampant twinking and level locking. It means PvP is rare at high levels and is only viable at low levels if you level lock. So just telling everyone to stop advancing, make a new guy and level lock him, so that that is a chance as a new player that you'll have some help, doesn't really address the issue. It still encourages people to level lock, meaning PvP would still be rare at high levels, and there would actually be more people level locking and rampantly ganking newbies. The mentoring idea holds some merit because it allows people to actually level up and play the game. They can then mentor to a smaller person and help them with level lockers. The level lockers still can tweak out their guys and have their epic battles with other level lockers if that's what they dig. But it means that it all of a sudden becomes viable to level up and not level lock, and still have a chance of some fun PvP. This would have two effects. It would mean you could continue playing your main character as normal, enjoying the content, and deal with level lockers, without having to abandon it, stop your progression and make a level locked alt. Also, since levelling up would now be viable again, it would revitalize the higher level PvP and at the same time make level locking as a method of simply being powerful less enjoyable, meaning there would be more higher level people and less ganking level lockers. This would both decrease the newbies getting ganked by twinks, since they would have protection from people who don't have to give up their characters in order to do so, and would decrease the amount of twinks to gank them. </blockquote><p>I want to help you as much as possible Darthus, and I both sympathize with you and agree with you for the most part.  But, I'd like to point out that the exact purpose of a PvP server may be somewhat open to interpretation.  </p><p>For me, I would never have come to EQ2 without PvP.  The PvE just doesn't interest me enough.  I only joined the EQ2 community about a month before the PvP servers went live--but after they were announced.  I spent that month learning the game, purely in anticipation of PvP.  The night before the PvP servers opened, I deleted all of my characters on the non-PvP servers.  You could call me a serious PvP'er, and I wouldn't disagree with that ... but for me, it's a PvP server first, and an EQ2 server second.  I completely disagree with your statement that "playing the actual game and progressing is not encouraged on a PvP server" because to me, the game is PvP, first, foremost, and most importantly.  I've yet to find scripted AI that is persistantly thrilling.  PvP is always thrilling because of the human opponent.  </p><p>Yes, the current EQ2 PvP system discourages leveling up, because the PvP is watered down in the higher tiers--fewer people, more evac'ing, people doing instances, and the few people that are around to PvP tend to either be intent on grinding up their levels or raiding PvE content or raid up to PvP.  All of those things detract from actually PvP'ing.  Then, it's so difficult to gear out well at the higher tiers, that the gear difference is also great.  So, if what you truly want to do is PvP, why waste so much time, effort and money just to level up to a tier where the PvP is less common and less fun?  It doesn't take long to level up to 20, and not very long to hit 30.  Heck, the 40's doesn't take too much time either.  But, by the time you hit level 50, the leveling comes very very very slowly, so if you want T6 and T7 PvP, you absolutely must put in a TON of time to PvE ... something I find far less rewarding.  Plus, I find the most populated tiers for PvP being T3 and T2.  I find T3 and T4 to be the most fun, but the targets start really getting scarce in T4.  T5 everyone's in instances trying to level up to 70.  T6 takes a long time to grind through and you're constantly being ganked by fabled-0ut 70's.  Then, when you reach 70, they avoid you like the plague unless they're got you out-geared, outnumbered, engaged with a mob, or they're next to a portal.  No-risk PvP predominates, and it means that the PvP is quite frustrating when you spend a half-hour to find it, and they just zone into an instance, portal away, or evac when they see you on track.  I just don't see the appeal of end-game PvP.  So, the solution has been to choose to prioritize PvP over leveling.  I would rather the two not conflict, but given that the Devs prioritize PvE, they're not going to change PvP mentoring becasue they don't want to change it on the PvE side ... I'm not sure when/if we'll get fair mentoring.  </p><p>Time.  Everyone has their own ideas, but I have characters locked for PvP in tiers 2, 3, 4 and 6.  I deleted my tier 7 character because I just didn't enjoy T7 PvP, even with having a good title despite horrible gear and combat arts.  I put a ton of time into leveling him up ... and I realized that I didn't enjoy it and all of that time was wasted.  Without a valid mentoring system, I'm just not going to waste time leveling up anymore.  I may add a T5 level-locked PvP toon, but I kinda doubt it.  I'm more likely to delete my T6 guy and reroll another T3 PvP toon.  See, I'm not a casual PvP'er, and the vast majority of PvP'ers aren't casual about it.  The market for PvP in every game, is a hard-core market for people who are fanatically interested in PvP'ing.  So, if there is an advantage to be had, they'll take it.  Nobody wants to be unable to farm nameds or have to run off every pve mob they encounter just to prevent leveling too high to PvP witih their friends.  We see level-locking as a good thing, and our only wish was that we could completely turn off XP so that we didn't get any from quests or explorations.  We want to spend our time doing one thing ... PvP'ing as much as possible.  The most PvP is found in T2 and T3, which is why people level-lock there.  We fanatical PvP'ers are going to take advantage of everything we can (although I don't have any adornments and have never done a diety quest for any blessings/miracles ... but I always try to twink out with Mastercrafted armor).  </p></blockquote> Perfectly said, with surpassingly more tact than I could ever muster.

ckl
02-23-2007, 01:11 PM
Kurindor_Mythecnea wrote: <blockquote><b>This is the first time, ever, someone has asked for clarification on the forums.</b> </blockquote><p>Probably because most people have stopped even trying to read your verbose posts that use inflated words where short, easily understood ones will work. </p><p>I may have gone to a public high school and university, but I at least read<a href="http://www.resort.com/~prime8/Orwell/patee.htm" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Politics and the English Language</a> by George Orwell. It would do you well (re?)read it, Seliri. Pay parrticular attention to maxim number two: "Never use a long word where a short one will do." </p>

Strums
02-23-2007, 01:13 PM
<cite>cklab wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>For the record, my level 16 is now a champion and probably close to dreadnaught. Your argument that I only kill people new to the game is about as sound as your grammar, spelling and punctuation. There are plenty of other twinks to fight. . . if there weren't there would be no point. Thank you for visually serenading me with your prodigious ignorance.</p></blockquote> Ah, forgive me...I thought this was a forum, not english class.

ckl
02-23-2007, 01:17 PM
<cite>Strums wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>cklab wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>For the record, my level 16 is now a champion and probably close to dreadnaught. Your argument that I only kill people new to the game is about as sound as your grammar, spelling and punctuation. There are plenty of other twinks to fight. . . if there weren't there would be no point. Thank you for visually serenading me with your prodigious ignorance.</p></blockquote> Ah, forgive me...I thought this was a forum, not english class.</blockquote><p> It's a forum in which I related your argument to your grammar (can't wait for someone to return the favor, since my previous post for some reason has no edit button). Both leave plenty to be desired.</p>

Strums
02-23-2007, 01:19 PM
lol was getting ready to flame ya for it, but then I hit F5 and seen you corrected yourself =)

Darthus
02-23-2007, 04:03 PM
<p>Cklab, if you're going to add anything to the discussion, please do so instead of making attacks on my experience (when I had previously said I've been playing MMOs and muds for 12 years), and implying that I somehow don't know what "hardcore" is.</p><p>I consider UO relatively hardcore, in that you had full item loot and very few PvP rules. But there are multiple meanings of hardcore. I considering EQ2 some of the most "hardcore" PvP I've ever experienced simply because of the amount of time and effort it takes to actually be able to compete in it. And this is entirely due to the existence of low-level level locking.</p><p>I think this thread has kind of died in any case. It's turned into 3 different threads all going in different directions.</p><p>1) You've got Mr Wordy insulting people, and people flaming him back about things that don't relate to the level locking debate at all. </p><p>2) You've got the level lockers (you included) that simply say no or it's not a problem without acknowledging the fact that the system is driving away new players or offering a viable alternative aside from "grin and bear it, we did".</p><p>3) You've got me and a few others peeking their heads out going "Ya know what? I agree." And those people are ignored even though potentially that is the last post you will ever see from them because they are expressing that this system is potentially causing them to have to quit the game.</p><p>So yeah, if you want to talk about the topic, please do, but stop pointing at other people's posts and nodding, patting other people on the back and give me a good reason why this level locking issue shouldn't be looked at if it's causing what we seem to all agree is a negative effect on the new player experience and potentially PvP in general except for a small segment that buy into it.</p><p>I also realize you mentioned that someone else responded with "more tact than you could muster". Try to muster, because turning this into a personal flame fest isn't going to do anything useful.</p>

ckl
02-23-2007, 04:41 PM
<cite>Darthus wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Cklab, if you're going to add anything to the discussion, please do so instead of making attacks on my experience (when I had previously said I've been playing MMOs and muds for 12 years), and implying that I somehow don't know what "hardcore" is.</p><p>I consider UO relatively hardcore, in that you had full item loot and very few PvP rules. But there are multiple meanings of hardcore. I considering EQ2 some of the most "hardcore" PvP I've ever experienced simply because of the amount of time and effort it takes to actually be able to compete in it. And this is entirely due to the existence of low-level level locking.</p><p>I think this thread has kind of died in any case. It's turned into 3 different threads all going in different directions.</p><p>1) You've got Mr Wordy insulting people, and people flaming him back about things that don't relate to the level locking debate at all. </p><p>2) You've got the level lockers (you included) that simply say no or it's not a problem without acknowledging the fact that the system is driving away new players or offering a viable alternative aside from "grin and bear it, we did".</p><p>3) You've got me and a few others peeking their heads out going "Ya know what? I agree." And those people are ignored even though potentially that is the last post you will ever see from them because they are expressing that this system is potentially causing them to have to quit the game.</p><p>So yeah, if you want to talk about the topic, please do, but stop pointing at other people's posts and nodding, patting other people on the back and give me a good reason why this level locking issue shouldn't be looked at if it's causing what we seem to all agree is a negative effect on the new player experience and potentially PvP in general except for a small segment that buy into it.</p><p>I also realize you mentioned that someone else responded with "more tact than you could muster". Try to muster, because turning this into a personal flame fest isn't going to do anything useful.</p></blockquote><p> Here's my stance, with as little flaming and as much tact as possible. Level-locking and twinking doesn't take nearly as long as you seem to think it does. That's what drew me to it in the first place. </p><p>It's simple. Tradeskill, harvest, collect shinies, whatever, to collect money. Use this money or rares to get yourself outfitted in at least mastercrafted or good treasured items. That's all that guy Gildorath uses and you've seen how tough he was relative to yourself at the time. As you progress in wealth, buy what cheap fabled/legendary items available and upgrade. Adornments are also available to upgrade, but you can do ok without them.</p><p>My point is this is a valid method for a casual player (in my opinion, at least) to experience pvp. This is how I've done it on mine, spending maybe 10 hours a week at most working on him. The point of level-locking isn't to kill newbies repeatedly. It's to compete with others who choose to do the same and to ensure you have enough faction to get your tier's pvp gear. The killing of newbies is only perpetuated because the system is set up to reward and require it with the way faction works.</p><p>When I started in November I expected this, seeing as it's a pvp server and all, especially in the EQ universe. I had my first character at level 9 harvesting for tier 2, 3 and 4 rares to outfit my main character as I leveled, and that took all of a week and a half. </p><p>The developers couldn't have intended for people to have +7500 faction at level 20 for the first pvp gear without level locking to farm faction. If experience is granted for pvp kills even with combat experience locked, the faction system should receive an overhaul as literally all pvp gear wouldn't be obtainable by the level the item is. </p><p>Even if they remove level locking, people will still get 50% debt, rack up the AAs early on, gear themselves out with money from their main, and kill you repeatedly just the same. The fact that they'd probably not get experience again until you're off their recent would just exacerbate the problem even more.</p><p>But whatever. The day combat experience is given for pvp kills is the day my accounts will be canceled. I've done the PVE grinding--countless hours on Darkspire, circle of five, and high lord raids in DAOC to gear up. Same goes for Anarchy Online, which is really just Everquest set 30,000 years in the future. I'm not doing it again, especially not in such an abominably pve-centric game where the pvp servers are little exception to that rule.</p>

Darthus
02-23-2007, 04:51 PM
<p><blockquote>You must be new to MMOs. There is no consensus point to playing them. Each person has his or her own goals and plans to execute those goals. </p><p>I also find your characterization of level locking as hardcore to be laughable. Nothing in this game can be considered hardcore as far as pvp is concerned.</p><p>People in DAOC do the same thing--they twink out characters for the low level battlegrounds and play those characters exclusively, much to the chagrin of the level 50s who believe realm vs realm is the most important aspect of the game. Though in DAOC you can avoid these people by not going to the battlegrounds, these situations in the two games are similar. If you don't like it there are ways of avoiding it and combatting it, the least effective of which is to advocate on the forums for the removal of those mechanics.</blockquote></p><p>Ok, I realized I didn't address your arguments. Excuse me.</p><p>When saying "MMOs were designed for players to level from level 1 to the max", I wasn't meaning to be presumptuous and imply that every player must play MMOs that way. I was only making a point that the majority of MMOs (EQ2 included, I can list off more if you doubt my experience) were designed from the ground up with that gameplay path in mind. That is where 95% of the development effort goes, providing content for players to experience while they're levelling up their character.</p><p>And yes, I do find the twinking that goes on in games like DAoC and WoW to be different. As you mentioned, it is usually confined to an area like battlegrounds, because that is where the strict level range is. In WoW you can fight a player of any level, so the fact that someone is decking out their 29 so they can be at the top of the 20-29 range means that still a level 34 could mop the floor with them outside of that environment.</p><p>The situation in EQ2 is not like that. This twinking is pervasive and extreme, not only affects the entire PvP gameplay, since it's not contained, but directly affects new players even more than higher level ones.</p><p>I am not directly trying to come on here and "change the game to ruin people's fun" instead of just dealing with it. I am giving people a good glimpse into the experience that goes into a new player's head when they encounter this sort of thing. If it's not changed, that's fine, I think I've already said I will probably still continue to give it a try, I'm just giving people a chance to realize, "Hey, he might be right" and brainstorm up some solutions.</p>

Darthus
02-23-2007, 04:58 PM
<p>Ok, looks like we cross posted there, that was a response to your previous post. In response to your current one, I see your point.</p><p>I, as a PvPer, also in general do not like grinding, especially grinding in order to PvP. I consider the twinking required to compete grinding by the way, just in a different sense, and without the same sense of progression.</p><p>So, what you're saying is valid, there should be a way for people to PvP without having to grind XP and go on constant instance runs in order to compete. That is why a lot of people do the whole "I'm max level for my range" in WoW and DAoC when it comes to battlegrounds. It allows them to be competetive in PvP without the grinding. I see that's the goal of what people are doing in EQ2 with their low level twinks.</p><p>But, as I pointed out before, people maxxing out their characters in other games early wasn't as much of a problem because their competition was confined the BGs and there wasn't a strict level range, nor was there this faction issue that you mentioned that actually encourages people to kill newbies.</p><p>So given that this system does provide fun for people, and I recognize why, but it invariably causes a lot of grief for people who are new and are like "[Removed for Content]?" when they get streamrolled by someone a level lower than them, what's the solution? You guys are more familiar with the EQ2 game mechanics than I am, I just know what I perceive to be enjoyable MMO PvP gameplay.</p>

Zexxii
02-23-2007, 05:14 PM
<p>SOE could try making multiple zones always available in the lower tiers.  </p><p>Antonica 1 is always non-pvp, Antonica 2 is always PVP. /shrug couldn't hurt, might help the new player, all the way through, say... tier 3? 4?</p><p>Don't know how viable that is, but it's an idea.  There are ALOT of T7 folks and veterans that roll twinks, and PVP IS fun twink vs. twink.</p>

DankShasta
02-23-2007, 05:32 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><p>SOE could try making multiple zones always available in the lower tiers.  </p><p>Antonica 1 is always non-pvp, Antonica 2 is always PVP. /shrug couldn't hurt, might help the new player, all the way through, say... tier 3? 4?</p><p>Don't know how viable that is, but it's an idea.  There are ALOT of T7 folks and veterans that roll twinks, and PVP IS fun twink vs. twink.</p></blockquote><p>   If you want PvP you play on Nagafen, if you want PvE, you play on Guk or something. You cant have both on one server. That would just add to the problem. That has got to be  one of the dumbest posts, on a thread ripe with stupidity!!</p><p>   I can't take your posts seriously anyway, you locked for months, got rolled too much, then lvled. Now you post like they should get rid of locking? It was cool when youdid it though?  hhhmmmm? we Swedes have a word for that!</p>

Darthus
02-23-2007, 05:37 PM
<p>Hmm, more flaming, but ok. I do agree with Shasta though. Splitting up PvP and PvE wouldn't solve the problem. If you're a newbie and coming to a PvP server, you are expecting to PvP. It's not an issue of getting PvP'ed while you're PvEing. It's that the people who are PvPing you are invincible unless you level lock as well. This would be an issue whether or not you put all the PvP in its own area.</p><p>I personally think removing the artificial level ranges, and removing any benefit for killing someone significantly weaker than you would help a lot. Once again, it's not level locking in general that I have a problem with, it's people who are new to the getting steamrolled by invincible level lockers.</p><p>Removing the level range cap you would think would increase the level 70s rolling into the commonlands and steamrolling noobs, but I don't think so. If there wasn't any gain from them doing that, they wouldn't do it very often. But people would be able to come in and protect newbies from rampant level lockers. Also, level lockers would be able to fight "normal" players far above their level, which they should enjoy.</p><p>Artificial restrictions, I've found, often just serve to create weird problems like this without solving many actual ones.</p><p>Another key issue though is that they need a more sophisticated system for gauging the strength of a player aside from adventuring level, which doesn't seem to mean much. Of course it's hard to gauge things like gear etc, but you could at least include AA as a modifier in the equation and give someone a "PvP level" or something which is used to calculate whether or not you get rewards (including faction) for killing someone.</p><p>In general, that is the problem. It's not that people are twinking. It's that the game doesn't recognize them as twinking, and lumps them in to a tight PvP group with people that aren't twinking. The game is essentially saying "Ok, the range is 4 levels below you, and 12 levels above you", since level locking allows you to inflate your character's power far beyond what your adventuring level provides.</p><p>I mean simply changing the level range to be based not on adventuring level, but this "PvP level" that is based on a combination of things would help greatly. But really, as long as there is a level range, people will find ways to exploit it so that they're at the topf ot eht level range.</p>

Mithremakor
02-23-2007, 07:10 PM
The whole problem with twinking is that it's done by cowards and fools in the first place.  If some [Removed for Content] didn't start the process everyone would find a surplus of great PvP competition from all of the other non-twinks.  I see the argument repeatedly 'I only twink to fight other twinks'.  Bull.  I'm making a third attempt at leveling a toon on Venekor and I've yet to see two twinks battling it out.  What I see is parties of twinks ganking non-twinks with the occasional, ultra-courageous, twink soloing non-twinks several levels below him/her. The same was true in WoW.  The real reason most, if not all, twinks are made is to give the twinker an unfair advantage against other PvPers.  This happens in virtually every PvP game and, unless and until someone finds a way to prevent twinking in all its myriad forms, the best hope we have for a solution is for the twinkers to realize that twinking is cowardly, foolish bull that ultimately ruins the game for everyone involved; twinks included.

ckl
02-23-2007, 07:28 PM
Darthus wrote: <blockquote><p>I am giving people a good glimpse into the experience that goes into a new player's head when they encounter this sort of thing. If it's not changed, that's fine, I think I've already said I will probably still continue to give it a try, I'm just giving people a chance to realize, "Hey, he might be right" and brainstorm up some solutions.</p></blockquote>Fair enough. I did experience dying to a few characters with better gear and higher titles on my main in tiers 2 and 3, so I can sort of relate. Then I considered it as a proverbial rite of passage more than anything. . . if I wanted to fight them again they were easy to find; if not, they were easy to avoid. A few times I even managed to beat them the second time around, which I believe would be a rarity without level locking.

ckl
02-23-2007, 07:34 PM
<cite>Darthus wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Ok, looks like we cross posted there, that was a response to your previous post. In response to your current one, I see your point.</p><p>I, as a PvPer, also in general do not like grinding, especially grinding in order to PvP. I consider the twinking required to compete grinding by the way, just in a different sense, and without the same sense of progression.</p><p>So, what you're saying is valid, there should be a way for people to PvP without having to grind XP and go on constant instance runs in order to compete. That is why a lot of people do the whole "I'm max level for my range" in WoW and DAoC when it comes to battlegrounds. It allows them to be competetive in PvP without the grinding. I see that's the goal of what people are doing in EQ2 with their low level twinks.</p><p>But, as I pointed out before, people maxxing out their characters in other games early wasn't as much of a problem because their competition was confined the BGs and there wasn't a strict level range, nor was there this faction issue that you mentioned that actually encourages people to kill newbies.</p><p>So given that this system does provide fun for people, and I recognize why, but it invariably causes a lot of grief for people who are new and are like "[I cannot control my vocabulary]?" when they get streamrolled by someone a level lower than them, what's the solution? You guys are more familiar with the EQ2 game mechanics than I am, I just know what I perceive to be enjoyable MMO PvP gameplay.</p></blockquote><p>I truly think the only way to solve such a situation is to nerf gear in this game and make the gameplay similar to UO's. I'm sure you know what I'm talking: people pvp'ing naked with only reagents and a GM crafted halberd instead of busting out their invulnerability armor and vanquishing weapons that they risked losing if they died.</p><p>Players new to the game will always be at a disadvantage when it comes to pvp. . . I don't think that should be toned down at all. In my view it's as it should be and doesn't need to be toned down at all. If someone is discouraged by dying because of lesser gear and less AAs, removing that disparity will result in them finding something else to be discouraged by and the end result will probably be the same. I mean there's still the problem of paper scissors rock mechanics and x4s camping zonelines and whatnot. </p>

Zexxii
02-23-2007, 07:37 PM
[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><p>   If you want PvP you play on Nagafen, if you want PvE, you play on Guk or something. You cant have both on one server. That would just add to the problem. That has got to be  one of the dumbest posts, on a thread ripe with stupidity!!</p><p>   I can't take your posts seriously anyway, you locked for months, got rolled too much, then lvled. Now you post like they should get rid of locking? It was cool when youdid it though?  hhhmmmm? we Swedes have a word for that!</p></blockquote><p>little boy, i'm not saying they should get rid of it at all, someone misquoted me LONG ago in this thread, and we weren't locked to twink only, we were locked to build a force, recruit, the twinking happened out of boredom, stop blabbering about something you know ZERO about, go play your troub you don't have time to get to t7</p><p> all others, I think fights amongst t3 twinks are probably the most even and most fun, the purpose of two available zones, is all the twinks can go gank one another, and the other zone folks can level, and mentor and venture out into the PVP once they have their wits about them in the game itself, just a thought to help save the new folks to the server </p>

ckl
02-23-2007, 07:39 PM
<cite>Mithremakor wrote:</cite><blockquote>The whole problem with twinking is that it's done by cowards and fools in the first place.  If some [Removed for Content] didn't start the process everyone would find a surplus of great PvP competition from all of the other non-twinks.  I see the argument repeatedly 'I only twink to fight other twinks'.  Bull.  I'm making a third attempt at leveling a toon on Venekor and I've yet to see two twinks battling it out.  What I see is parties of twinks ganking non-twinks with the occasional, ultra-courageous, twink soloing non-twinks several levels below him/her. The same was true in WoW.  The real reason most, if not all, twinks are made is to give the twinker an unfair advantage against other PvPers.  This happens in virtually every PvP game and, unless and until someone finds a way to prevent twinking in all its myriad forms, the best hope we have for a solution is for the twinkers to realize that twinking is cowardly, foolish bull that ultimately ruins the game for everyone involved; twinks included. </blockquote><p> You must not look very hard, or maybe the same for Nagafen isn't true for Venekor. That there are people in these ranges with champion and dreadnaught titles refutes your statment, because some random newbie in handcrafted armor isn't going to come anywhere close to having a destroyer or slayer title.</p><p>Plenty of twinks on Nagafen solo, myself included.</p>

Darthus
02-23-2007, 07:47 PM
<p><blockquote>The same was true in WoW.  The real reason most, if not all, twinks are made is to give the twinker an unfair advantage against other PvPers.  This happens in virtually every PvP game and, unless and until someone finds a way to prevent twinking in all its myriad forms, the best hope we have for a solution is for the twinkers to realize that twinking is cowardly, foolish bull that ultimately ruins the game for everyone involved; twinks included.</blockquote></p><p>Of course that's the best solution, but that would require 100% of people to buy into this social contract. One person realizing, "Hey, I can twink and kick butt" would ruin it for everyone. The only hard and fast solution is to make it so either twinking isn't such an extreme advantage, or at least to allow someone to stop the twinks, even if they don't get a reward for it (higher levels being able to kill lower levels but receiving no reward).</p><p><blockquote>If someone is discouraged by dying because of lesser gear and less AAs, removing that disparity will result in them finding something else to be discouraged by and the end result will probably be the same. I mean there's still the problem of paper scissors rock mechanics and x4s camping zonelines and whatnot.</blockquote></p><p>I don't think I'm arguing (at this point) of removing the disparity. There will always be people stronger than you. The point is, by having a hard and fast 4 adventuring levels limit in the low areas, it's essentially encouraging people to twink and grief people weaker than them, especially because they get rewarded for it.</p><p>It's like taking a bunch of 12 year olds, throwing them in a cage, saying "Ok, now fight", but giving some of the kids baseball bats, then saying it's fair because you've limited it by age. Then you've got these adults looking at it from the outside wishing they could help, but they can't because the rules are that only 12 year olds are allowed.</p><p>If instead you had no cage, and some 12 year olds have bats, some don't, but adults are allowed to fight too, then as a natural course, the adults would see kids with bats beating the tar out of the other kids and come help. The 12 year olds with bats still get to feel strong, but at least it's not a "go find a bat somewhere or you're screwed" mentality. Add into that that the adults don't get anything for beating up the 12 year olds and you've got a self correcting system.</p><p>Essentially the cage around the 12 year olds only makes the situation worse, in a sad atttempt to try to "protect" them.</p>

Mithremakor
02-23-2007, 07:51 PM
<cite>cklab wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mithremakor wrote:</cite><blockquote>The whole problem with twinking is that it's done by cowards and fools in the first place.  If some [Removed for Content] didn't start the process everyone would find a surplus of great PvP competition from all of the other non-twinks.  I see the argument repeatedly 'I only twink to fight other twinks'.  Bull.  I'm making a third attempt at leveling a toon on Venekor and I've yet to see two twinks battling it out.  What I see is parties of twinks ganking non-twinks with the occasional, ultra-courageous, twink soloing non-twinks several levels below him/her. The same was true in WoW.  The real reason most, if not all, twinks are made is to give the twinker an unfair advantage against other PvPers.  This happens in virtually every PvP game and, unless and until someone finds a way to prevent twinking in all its myriad forms, the best hope we have for a solution is for the twinkers to realize that twinking is cowardly, foolish bull that ultimately ruins the game for everyone involved; twinks included. </blockquote><p> You must not look very hard, or maybe the same for Nagafen isn't true for Venekor. That there are people in these ranges with champion and dreadnaught titles refutes your statment, because some random newbie in handcrafted armor isn't going to come anywhere close to having a destroyer or slayer title.</p><p>Plenty of twinks on Nagafen solo, myself included.</p></blockquote> People having those titles says nothing about how the titles were acquired.  I said nothing about random newbies ganking people, rather, I said twinks were ganking newbs.  And of course I'm going to believe a twink who says he's an honorable twink.  Even if I do believe you; that refutes none of what I said about twinking being cowardly, foolish and entirely unnecessary.

Killque
02-23-2007, 07:53 PM
<cite>Mithremakor wrote:</cite><blockquote>The whole problem with twinking is that it's done by cowards and fools in the first place.  If some [Removed for Content] didn't start the process everyone would find a surplus of great PvP competition from all of the other non-twinks.  I see the argument repeatedly 'I only twink to fight other twinks'.  Bull.  I'm making a third attempt at leveling a toon on Venekor and I've yet to see two twinks battling it out.  What I see is parties of twinks ganking non-twinks with the occasional, ultra-courageous, twink soloing non-twinks several levels below him/her. The same was true in WoW.  The real reason most, if not all, twinks are made is to give the twinker an unfair advantage against other PvPers.  This happens in virtually every PvP game and, unless and until someone finds a way to prevent twinking in all its myriad forms, the best hope we have for a solution is for the twinkers to realize that twinking is cowardly, foolish bull that ultimately ruins the game for everyone involved; twinks included. </blockquote><p> I love how people who do well are always either cheating, twinks or morons. Should we really not try? Should we have to come out into the World PvP in nothing but a twig in our hand and Island gear? Would we then be looked upon more highly? Personally I dont care what you think of me. All I care about is that I am still standing and your not. It will take gear to get there. No doubt about it.</p><p>You could take the most noobish person and give them control of a super twink, butt them up against the top skilled PvPer at the same level with noob island gear and guess whos gunna win.</p>

Darthus
02-23-2007, 08:01 PM
<p><blockquote>You could take the most noobish person and give them control of a super twink, butt them up against the top skilled PvPer at the same level with noob island gear and guess whos gunna win.</blockquote></p><p>A sad reality of the game in my opinion, but a reality nonetheless.</p>

Killque
02-23-2007, 08:04 PM
<p>Just wanted to see what you think of this...</p><p>My main twink is a 14 Guardian. He is and will remain at 14 so he can engage all levels. Plus I find it challenging to take out 18s and 20s at level 14. They have way more CA's and abilities ushally better gear (if they are twinked, more avaliable at +14) etc.</p><p>Now that said, if I am in route to the caves or in Forest Ruin to get a few transmutables (digmasters gloves are SOOO easy to get) and I happen upon a level 10 that is obviously a FOB, your Got [Removed for Content] right I am going to put his [Removed for Content] in the ground, and with probably very little effort, however once on my recent I will not reengage unless I need to.</p><p>Example. - I was in forest ruin just getting some Treasured items for transmuting and a 10 warden hops (was a froglock) by me. Well I killed him in less than a second and moved on with what I was doing. He came back and started attacking me. I emoted /no and ran away. He chased me around like this for about 5 minutes. This has happend many times with all manor of levels. I will not engage unless they have a chance to kill me at which point I will zone out and move along, and they probably think I am a coward, but truth is I dont want to grief them. I do not help group members grief either and have been kicked from several groups for refusing to help grief people.</p>

Darthus
02-23-2007, 08:28 PM
<p>Are you speaking to me when you say "You"? If so, I think it's cool that you don't actively grief people. However, the fact that you're a level 14 hardcore twink, and you see a level 10 walking by and kill him without a second thought, even though as you said you can kill him in less than a second, seems a bit excessive. I mean... you still loot him for cash and potentialy an item right? Considering that he can't even fight back, that seems a bit much to me.</p><p>And honestly, if he actively attacks you back, I think you should kick his butt into oblivion, because he's agreeing to fight you. Of course at this point, it's all PvP ethics, to which I say "to each their own". But the fact that the game allows you to kill a level 10 and loot him, when he is no more than a mere speck to you, seems excessive.</p><p>I honestly think if the level range was opened up so that you couldn't kill anyone below 10 for example, but anyone above that you could (but you didn't loot or get faction if they were significantly below you), would resolve a lot of these issues, and would make it less likely that you would attack someone just because he was there, even if he was a super easy kill.</p><p>Not to mention it would be an almost insignificant coding change. Just remove the hard and fast level limits. Then add a system like Vanguard has, which is that if someone is more than 20% below your level, you don't get anything for killing them.</p><p>This means at level 20, you could kill down to 16. At level 30, you could kill down to level 24, at 40 you could kill down to 32 etc. It opens up your range as you increase in power, which seems to make sense, and works pretty well from my experience. Too bad their game sucks otherwise. =)</p>

Kurindor_Mythecnea
02-26-2007, 06:46 PM
I always kinda' though that if they limited PvP encounters to begin at 15 it would actually provide the nubs some feasible span of longevity up until they reach that point. At 10, your toon is practically worthless unless you deck him fresh in T2 Fabled. Sure, you can level past 10 fast, but those just roaming like little foozle nubs exploring the EQ2 environment for their first time would be without as heightened a motive for hastened building as they ought have. TBH, level ranges truly resonate an appropriate air, as there are those assuredly tough toons at the top of it that you'd often not rather fight, always. That will always stand as a corollary to PvP systems with instated ranges -- you'll just get slapped harder at a lower level by those even higher up as you progress. You truly wouldn't want to fight the level 30s at 24. And what people would be doing anyways is just moving to the specification that is generally most abundant with PvP accessibility; getting to 30 can be done quite quickly and there aren't many people who'd feel the need to further develop when you wouldn't be in range to T5 Fabled toons. You could say you would instigate leveling, but not even -- the locks worth anything are doing so in order to maximize AAs, and insomuch, would intend to remain stationary at particular points along the way regardless, as there are already higher level allies to ward off those at the top of the tier while you'd be able to slap those at the bottom of it around just as fast as ever.

CresentBlade
02-26-2007, 08:15 PM
Titles are meaning less, I have had and lost slayer title 34 times now. If you pvp alot keeping a title is not really gonna happen to often.

Kurindor_Mythecnea
02-26-2007, 08:41 PM
[Removed for Content]? Where do you get this title connection? Nobody spoke of any titles. But TBH, not even -- possessing a title means you are either A., an SK who zone hops with HT, B., a Fury who runs aways AMAP (as much as possible) with 35% in-combat runspeed, or C., someone capable of good battlefield management. It's up to contextual circumstance for the accurate judge to make its true representation.