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View Full Version : More avoidance testing - pre and post change


Ceruline
04-19-2005, 07:52 PM
<DIV>Did some more testing last night, as to how base avoidance scales depending upon armor type:</DIV> <P>No armor, going from 47 to 101 agility:</P> <P>Agi 47 </P> <P>Total: 33.1%</P> <P>Base: 20.3%</P> <P>Parry:16.1%</P> <P> </P> <P>Agi101Total:</P> <P>33.2%</P> <P>Base:20.4%</P> <P>Parry:16.1%</P> <P> </P> <P>Medium Armor</P> <P>Agi 47</P> <P>Total:28.9%</P> <P>Base:15.3%</P> <P>Parry:16.1%</P> <P> </P> <P>Agi 101</P> <P>Total:29.0%</P> <P>Base:15.4%</P> <P>Parry:16.1%</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <DIV>We only see a 5% base difference in base avoidance going from medium to no armor, and the scaling due to agility seems to be identical.</DIV> <DIV>Looking at calculated total damage taken both pre and post change, depending on armor type (I do not know what % medium mitigated prepatch - I used both 0% and 20% for illustrative purposes. I also used 25% for post-patch medium mitigation, even though I only experience 22.5% from my player crafter level appropriate set):</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>                                                       Post Change   Post Change       Pre Change   Pre Change</DIV> <DIV>                                                        V Light Armor   Medium Armor    No Armor       Medium Armor</DIV> <DIV>Mitigation%                                      10.00%           25.00%                 0.00%            20.00%</DIV> <DIV>Avoidance%                                     33. 20%          29.00%                 57.70%          57.70%</DIV> <DIV>% Damage not Mitigated                 90.00%          75.00%                100.00%          80.00%</DIV> <DIV>% Damage not Avoided                   66.80%         71.00%                 42.30%            42.30%</DIV> <DIV>% Damage Taken                            60.12%          53.25%                42.30%            33.84%</DIV> <DIV>% Damage Mitigated or Avoided       39.88%        46.75%                 57.70%            66.16%</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Damage Taken After:  53.25%</DIV> <DIV>Damage Taken Before:   33.84%</DIV> <DIV>Increase in Damage Taken:   <STRONG><U>57.36%</U></STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As you can see, this is a <STRONG>57.36%</STRONG> increase in damage taken for me. This has a very serious affect on soloing, both in terms of downtime and my capability to effectively fight a given mob. Scouts are unique in that they have been nearly wholly dependant upon the agility driven base avoidance until now. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Unfortunately, the fact that through buffs other classes with higher mitigation capabilities could reach similar levels of base avoidance (and combined with the better mitigation, an unbalanced level of total defensive effectiveness) has caused a change which critically impacts an archetype which was not able to gain an unbalanced benefit from base avoidance. Given that the nature of the scout archetype dictates that it be more oriented towards avoidance than mitigation, it is critical to remedy the loss of soloing/small group capability which scouts have been hit with by somehow restoring the ability of the scout to avoid damage. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Probably the most effective way of doing it would be to allow base avoidance to scale differently for scouts than other archetypes - and potentially cap differently too.   Another option would be to give the Scout archetype some variety of non-conc based base avoidance buff, but this would be a bit of a band-aid measure, and I personally would rather not have to recast a buff every ten minutes just to function at my former level of effectiveness. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Another issue arising from the defensive changes is the value that bard types bring to groups. Some of the most visible contributions that bards were able to make was reducing the amount of damage the party took through buffing/debuffing. Given that in many cases the benefits/detriments from the buffs and debuffs have now been capped, bards are experiencing greatly diminished utility to groups - especially as they cannot contribute the dps that the other scout classes can. Both bard classes greatly need to be evaluated as to how much value they bring to groups under the new set of changes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> The most critical thing, of course, is that somehow the huge increase in damage taken that scouts are experiencing (Nearly 60% more in my case) be somehow undone, through any method. While not nearly as significant when it comes to grouping, it makes playing a scout solo a truly unenjoyable experience. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Arethor</DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text>(Sorry for inital awful formatting - it was all lovely with HTML tables, and then the stupid board decided that my tables were illegal html.  Grrrr!  Should be mostly better now)</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Ceruline on <span class=date_text>04-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:58 AM</span>

Sebastien
04-19-2005, 09:23 PM
This is great data. I do not believe there is an avoidance boost for lighter armor types, so much as a penalty for heavier ones. Based on this post, I will assume the rule is: Medium Armor = -5.0% base avoidance. Can anyone disprove that theory? Also, am I correct in assuming that you will get hit with that 5% penalty the moment you put on a single piece?  Or is that only the result of a full set? I tried to perform the same test between naked, very light armor, and light armor, on my level 12 newbie sham. I could not get avoidance to change at all. Can anyone confirm avoidance going up or down when you equip a piece of light armor?  How about very light? <div></div>

Ceruline
04-19-2005, 09:52 PM
<DIV>I know unarmored is a 5% difference to medium.  I *think* very light carries that same lack of penalty.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can check some of the other things when I get home from work later today.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Interesting that you saw no change on your shaman....  At a guess, what is being capped is the bonus associated with the stat - though even when my stat was a very low 47 I was still seeing that 5% difference (In the base avoidance split you get when doing mouseover on the avoidance stat in the persona window - the total avoidance isn't shifted as much due to the multiplication)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's also possible that medium is the first class of armor that carries an avoidance penalty - and that both light and very light are equivalent in avoidance penalty to unarmored - that would explain your shaman's results</DIV><p>Message Edited by Ceruline on <span class=date_text>04-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:53 AM</span>

Sebastien
04-19-2005, 09:58 PM
Yes, that is what I think.  I suspect they did this in the cleanest, easiest way, which would be that if you equip even one piece of medium armor, you will get hit with that 5% penalty off the bat.  I do not believe we will find any bonus in light or very light armors.. just a lack of penalty. <div></div>

Sacha
04-19-2005, 10:37 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <DIV>Damage Taken After:  53.25%</DIV> <DIV>Damage Taken Before:   33.84%</DIV> <DIV>Increase in Damage Taken:   <STRONG><U>57.36%</U></STRONG></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I know I'm a bit crap at numbers, so sorry if I missed something simple, but according to the data above should the increase not be <STRONG>19.41%</STRONG> ?</DIV>

Ceruline
04-19-2005, 10:50 PM
<DIV>Let me clarify the math a bit:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In a fight where an even mob would otherwise have done 1000 damage, this is how much damage I'd actually take in both the old system and the new one:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Old:  33.84% damage taken so 338.4 points of damage</DIV> <DIV>New: 53.25% damage taken, so 532.5 points of damage</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>532.5/338.4 = 1.5735 which indicates that under the current system I'm taking 57% more damage than the old system.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It might not be clear in the original post, but I'm talking about percentage change in damage taken between the old system and the new one - I just took a shortcut in figuring it out by taking the ratio of the percentages.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The plain english version is that 532.5 is 57.35% more than 338.4</DIV>

Sacha
04-19-2005, 10:57 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ceruline wrote:<BR> <DIV>Let me clarify the math a bit:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In a fight where an even mob would otherwise have done 1000 damage, this is how much damage I'd actually take in both the old system and the new one:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Old:  33.84% damage taken so 338.4 points of damage</DIV> <DIV>New: 53.25% damage taken, so 532.5 points of damage</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>532.5/338.4 = 1.5735 which indicates that under the current system I'm taking 57% more damage than the old system.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It might not be clear in the original post, but I'm talking about percentage change in damage taken between the old system and the new one - I just took a shortcut in figuring it out by taking the ratio of the percentages.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The plain english version is that 532.5 is 57.35% more than 338.4</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Ahh ok <blush></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Told you I was crap :p</DIV>

Sebastien
04-20-2005, 01:27 AM
I suggest everyone who can to please post their current avoidance and mitigation numbers. If you like, you can calculate how much of a mob's total DPS would impact you, using the same formula as Ceruline. (1 - avoidance%) x (1 - mitigation%) = damage taken I might try to gather some data points from people in channel, in case they do not post here often. <div></div>

Ceruline
04-20-2005, 03:23 AM
In addition to what Sebastian said, I think that for the data to be useful we also need the avoidance splits - base, parry, deflection, etc. - so that we can determine the sources of the shifts in defensive capability <div></div>

Sebastien
04-20-2005, 03:38 AM
Good point!  Thanks. =) <div></div>

Sebastien
04-20-2005, 11:28 AM
Here is an interesting point of comparison, between the tanking ability of a lvl 45 monk, and the tanking ability of a lvl 45 guardian. The monk's base avoidance was 20.7%, and this was brought to 51.5% with parry and deflection.  In light armor, his mitigation was only 22.2%. Looking at these numbers, he is hit 49.5% of the time, and when he is hit, he takes 77.8% of the raw damage. So a level 45 Monk, on average, takes 38.5% of a mob's raw DPS. The guardian's avoidance from base and parry totalled 21.3%, and equipping a shield, he had 37.3% total avoidance.  In heavy armor, his mitigation was a sturdy 41.1% Looking at these numbers, he is hit 62.7% of the time, and when he is hit, he takes 58.9% of the raw damage. So a level 45 Guardian, on average, takes 36.9% of a mob's raw DPS. These numbers are very nicely balanced.  The Guard is the better tank, but not by a lot, and the Monk offers more DPS and utility to the group.  The difference I predict, though, would come in tanking yellow or orange mobs.  My studies have shown that avoidance can drop as much as 1/2 just by fighting a mob one level higher than you are. <div></div>