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Moorgard
04-14-2005, 08:28 AM
<DIV>Hi folks. We can really use your help testing out the new combat changes that are going to Test along with Update #7. We're looking for specific feedback on questions like these:</DIV> <UL> <LI>If you solo or small group, can you still hunt in the same areas and face the same opponents with about the same results?</LI> <LI>If you play in full groups, do you find it more challenging now or about the same?</LI> <LI>If you take on named targets or raid mobs (at any level), do they feel more challening? If so, in what way?</LI> <LI>Does healing feel adequate with the new combat changes?</LI></UL> <P>Basically, we want to know how different the combat feels. Please provide specific examples of level range, mobs, zones, and other information on where you see the differences and what they are.</P> <P>As always, your help is much appreciated. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

Rondari
04-14-2005, 09:43 PM
<DIV> <P>I'll be testing the new changes a good bit tonight but part of the update notes have peaked my curiosity.</P> <P><STRONG>Mitigation</STRONG></P> <P>- The base mitigation values of armor have been adjusted as follows: Heavy (35%), Medium (25%), <FONT color=#cc0000>Light (20%),</FONT> Very Light (10%).</P> <P>Does 20% represent an increase or decrease for monks/bruisers?  Being the only fighter class / tank (which I think I do fairly well) that wears light armor, I would hope this is not a decrease.  I am no where as good of a tank as the other Heavy wearers, and the 15% difference in Mitigation seems to be much further appart than our difference in Avoidance (e.g. I do not avoid 15% better than heavy's)</P> <P>Time will tell, so do not take this as a complaint because I clearly have no real time in the game as of yet - but I was mainly interested in whether these changes represent an increase or decrease for the associated classes.  I am also interested what the base avoidance is given the statement that armor weight will now factor into Avoidance.</P> <P>Rondari</P> <P> </P></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Rondari on <SPAN class=date_text>04-14-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:47 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Rondari on <span class=date_text>04-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:48 PM</span>

Daffid011
04-14-2005, 11:49 PM
I'm not sure if you could have done this, but posting this a day or two ago would have been great as we might start collecting some data.   Maybe I missed it, but will post opinions this week/end. Cheers, <div></div>

LadyEternity
04-15-2005, 04:12 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <DIV>Hi folks. We can really use your help testing out the new combat changes that are going to Test along with Update #7. We're looking for specific feedback on questions like these:</DIV> <UL> <LI>If you solo or small group, can you still hunt in the same areas and face the same opponents with about the same results?</LI></UL> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>We created new toons to test with sense the Necro/Fury cannot play right now (our mains). We made a Druid/Warrior combo on the evil side and have been killing out in the commonlands now. It seemed like to me that the Warrior was cutting things down really fast. I don't know why. Maybe it's just I am not used to being that low level anymore <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I will log in my summoner (1<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> tonight and do some testing with her in Antonica.</FONT></P> <UL> <LI>If you play in full groups, do you find it more challenging now or about the same?</LI></UL> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>I never play, nor have ever played with more then 2 people at any given time, so I cannot answer this.</FONT></P> <UL> <LI>If you take on named targets or raid mobs (at any level), do they feel more challening? If so, in what way?</LI></UL> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>Our new characters killed a blue named in the Sunken City...I forget the name (It was a troll I believe), and came with a buddy. The named was double up blue and had a normal conning "side kick". We dispatched them easily. But then the named HUGE crab spawned, it was orange (double up). We tried to kill it. I couldn't heal fast enough for the damage it was doing. Heh. Seem right to me <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></P> <UL> <LI>Does healing feel adequate with the new combat changes?</LI></UL> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>Seem like healing is the same as always, and overpowered on some classes <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> It did feel like my new Druid was healing alot more then usual with her baby heal direct heal spell.</FONT></P> <P>Basically, we want to know how different the combat feels. Please provide specific examples of level range, mobs, zones, and other information on where you see the differences and what they are.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>It really honestly felt the same playing a healer/tank as it did when we leveled Ellsa and Doomhammer. Overpowered. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> But ya never know, this is just a wee level, maybe it's different higher up the chain. I will prod my husband into logging Ellsa and Doom on tonight, he hasn't wanted to play them because it's just wayyyyy to easy with them...so easy it's boring <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></P> <P>As always, your help is much appreciated. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>As I find out more I will post it up.<BR></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Cheers,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lady E</DIV>

Kwoung
04-15-2005, 06:10 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <UL> <LI>If you solo or small group, can you still hunt in the same areas and face the same opponents with about the same results?</LI></UL><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Not sure yet, but considering how badly grey mobs are now hammering me as a 40 Wiz, I seriously doubt my ability to stand up to anything that will actually give XP anymore. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Will check it out later though, busy trying to get the Tome of Life to pop atm.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Kwoung on <span class=date_text>04-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:10 PM</span>

Zindicatt
04-15-2005, 06:29 AM
<DIV>As a level 40 Defiler, my health dropped to about 60% fighting a level 30 mob when I don't have Ward on.  I used to be able to fight a level 36 with no Ward needed and didn't get hurt so much. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have 16.6% avoidance, 33.4% mitigation, and 2439 HPs. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also from what I heard in the channel tonight, avoidance seems to be low across the board.</DIV>

Kwoung
04-15-2005, 06:48 AM
Oh yeah.. now that I get hit so much easier/more... I can barely get a spell off without being interupted.. even with greys. Please consider adding a channeling skill (ala: eq1) if I am to be getting hit so much. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In case you miss it in the clutter, feedback from another wiz:</DIV> <DIV> <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=13973" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=13973</A></DIV><p>Message Edited by Kwoung on <span class=date_text>04-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:20 PM</span>

Shunidar
04-15-2005, 08:20 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <DIV>Hi folks. We can really use your help testing out the new combat changes that are going to Test along with Update #7. We're looking for specific feedback on questions like these:</DIV> <UL> <LI>If you solo or small group, can you still hunt in the same areas and face the same opponents with about the same results?</LI></UL> <P><FONT color=#cc00ff>Yes and no.  Duoing with a 42 Guardian and Warlock is very difficult after this change.  Mob groups need to be small, and the changes are making the game feel more and more like you HAVE to have a healer even in a small group; a stigma we have tried to avoid.  When we do win fights, we tend to be pretty low on HP.  Overall damage output of melee types has improved both when mobs attack us and when we attack mobs.  Our level 29 monk/fury combo are still strong and effective, but still hindered by Fury issues.  I also do not want to give the impression that the monk changes were not apparent, as it is quite obvious.  The changes do no apprear to have affected the monk as much as they have the guardian.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc00ff>Killing sets of mobs in groups has been much easier than killing arrowed mobs since patch.  For instance, when soloing, killing a single blue is much harder than killing 3 double minus mobs.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc00ff>Soloing with my warlock, the best I could hope to accomplish was killing blues.  I *could* have tried killing whites, but it would not take many tries before I would die to a white after a couple poorly timed resists.  Root nerfs, mitigation nerfs, parry nerfs, interrupts, etc have made soloing a chore with the sorcerer class, as well as unproductive.</FONT></P> <UL> <LI>If you play in full groups, do you find it more challenging now or about the same?</LI></UL> <P><FONT color=#cc00ff>Significantly harder.  We went in with a group and a half to DFC (a zone we have played through before).  Never have we ever had so much trouble tanking greens/blues.  The guardian was really getting owned at some points, and it was all 3 healers could do to keep him up against onslaughts of green mobs.  Our tank is level 42, supporting cast were a warlock, inquisitor, templar, another guardian, pally, warden, and conjurorer.  Again, the amount of damage taken by the tank versus gray and green mobs was very significant.  Not helping matters were the healers constantly getting aggro from the healing.  I also wanna say that there was a server restart, and after the server restart tongiht, our guardian was taking much more damage.  I don't know if anything changed, but before the restart, he had said that lower level mobs were merely hitting him (lightly).  After, blues were smacking him for over 400.</FONT></P> <UL> <LI>If you take on named targets or raid mobs (at any level), do they feel more challening? If so, in what way?</LI></UL> <P><FONT color=#cc00ff>We were unable to make it to emperor Fyst, but it is my impression that if the green con mobs were what killed us (granted it was like 30 of them), that Fyst would have pounded us into the dirt.  Sorry we dont have specifics, but we definately tired.  It has been obvious from killing group mobs that ^^ mobs were much harder than 3 no arrow mobs.</FONT></P> <UL> <LI>Does healing feel adequate with the new combat changes?</LI></UL> <P><FONT color=#cc00ff>Healing has never really felt adequate unless you were a cleric, and even they would argue that point.  I think from grouping this was the most starkly obvious.  The tank was taking so much damage (from, granted, LOTS of greens/blue mobs), 3 healers could barely keep up.  The way the patch is currently implemented, it sets up a HUGE dependency on healers and having to have many of them around that I do not like.  I would like to see the ability for me to duo with our Warlock/Guardian sometimes without feeling completely dependent on finding a healer.</FONT></P> <P>Basically, we want to know how different the combat feels. Please provide specific examples of level range, mobs, zones, and other information on where you see the differences and what they are.</P> <P>As always, your help is much appreciated. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><FONT color=#cc00ff>I would say that the changes are a bit extreme.  The whole atmosphere on test tonight was really kinda down and bummed out.  No to be dramatic, but the patch as it currently is makes me not want to play.  I feel it is important to test and give feedback, but it has drained much of the fun we were having.  Perhaps this is merely because so many times where there is a new patch, it is so drastic we feel like we have to learn a whole new game.  I hope our feedback is useful, as we'll keep leaving it.</FONT><BR>

Shantee
04-15-2005, 08:29 AM
<div></div>Ok, after being able to group tonight and fight.  I'm a lvl 45 Defiler. My Avoidance is 17.2% my mitigation is 32.7%.  with 2867 hps.  I can not solo a blue mob, due to they hitting me for at least 250 min and up to 600 a hit.  They never miss me.  My ward drops as fast as i put it up.  In my group with a 48 Crusader and 44 Ranger, we can barely fight lvl 43-44 double ups.  I'm healing and warding constantly and He heals himself as well.   I haven't tried to fight anything else as of yet, but the Ranger was fighting Cents in TS and was geting hit alot and taking quite abit of damage. I know this is all being tested.  I hope they raise our mitigation and avoidance.  It's stupid to get ate up by grays or blues/greens your trying to solo that are solo mobs.  Raids can not be done, due to the damage is SOOO much higher than what can be healed. Kaida Fortis I agree with the above post.  The game isn't fun.  The 2 ppl i group with said they won't play if it stays this way.  You don't want to take on named.  You don't want to take on mobs you use to take on, because of how difficult the green/blue mobs are.  I"m use to fighting whites and yellows to me due to my tank being higher lvl.  He doesn't want to take them on and they are blue to him. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Shantee on <span class=date_text>04-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:40 PM</span>

Shantee
04-15-2005, 08:55 AM
Another thing.  If you take off your armor your avoidance goes up. <div></div>

Aethn
04-15-2005, 09:31 AM
<DIV>Right now Heavy Armor, specifically Tanks, are seriously out of balance.  As a lvl 47 paladin, I struggle to kill grey group mobs 10 levels below me now.  Multiple times I have had to break encounter and run away from 2 and 3 group lvl 37 mobs in Ferrott.  This cant be right.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you take a paper cup and shoot a BB at it, you get a hole in the paper cup, if you take a panzer Tank and shot a BB at it, your get a cool "tink" sound as the BB bounces off.  Tanks perform one task in MMO's, just one, we absorb damage so the other 5 people can stay alive and enjoy the game.  As it stands now, thats no longer the case.  Healers are barely keeping me alive on low green dbl up heroic singles.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Crusaders seem to have taken the biggest hit of all Tanks.  I am not sure of SK's, but my paladin spell line is pointless now.  Alot of my spells are based on Avoidence buffing.  In the current combat version my spells either give no benfits or very little return for great expense.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, am I suppose to tank better naked??  I can take all my armor off and destroy blue con dbl up heroics.  Yet in full heavy, I can barely keep live fighitng lvl 41 dbl up grey heroic.  Agian, something seems very wrong here.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The severe nerf to Heavy Armor Tanks needs re-evaluated.   Whatever you guys did, you took it way way to far.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Remember, just like Scott Hartsman said, the game has to be fun, or whats the point of playing it.  Running healers oom on EXP mobs you plowed through 12 hours prior is 180deg from the definition of fun.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Gherig McComas</DIV>

Aethn
04-15-2005, 09:44 AM
<DIV>Let me point something out also.  "<EM>The Holy Trinity</EM>" in EQ1 killed the fun for every class that was not a Warrior, Cleric, Slower.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The current combat changes will all but require the use of The Holy Trinity in EQ2 now.  I question the motivation behind these changes, it seems like a huge step backwards.  Wasnt EQ2 suppose to be about smaller forces and less perfect groups to still have fun?  Why does it seem these changes will abandon the concept I stated, a concept that has made EQ2  a major success with ALL types and skill levels of MMO players.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Everyone is resistant to change, but this is more then a change, its a complete overhaul of the fundamental core that made combat fun in EQ2.  Which wasnt really broken for the most part.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Aethn on <span class=date_text>04-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:55 PM</span>

HanktheDwarf
04-15-2005, 10:03 AM
So the general feeling on test right now is that currently, everything is borked.  Sure, as an SK, I can fight solo guys and those 'grouped solo epic' things of two regular solo encounter mobs.  We went to Nektropos Castle.  Died quickly.  Went to Tombs of Night.  Died quickly and numerously.  We [34 SK, 45 (34) Monk,  33 Weezard, 32 Defiler, 26 Pally and a 31 Scouty Brigandy type] got wiped fighting that Mold feller down there.  The Defliers Adept 3 wards were dropping faster than they could come back up.  Some people say they tank better naked, not I.  Must be my fairly low agility. The damage bonus does seem pretty nice.  My 136 strength seems a little more effective now. <div></div>

Corlin
04-15-2005, 05:21 PM
<P>As AGI increases, avoidance goes down.  Someone have a sign error in the codebase?</P> <P> </P> <P>As you change zones, avoidance changes (drastically).  One example, in Zek avoidance was high 20s.  Enter Grozmag trial instance, and bam avoidance shot up to mid 60s.  Something wonky there.</P> <P> </P> <P>Dont push this to live till further tweaking occurs, it will create havoc as it stands.</P>

Torali
04-15-2005, 07:15 PM
<P>I pretty much agree with all the observations of my fellow testers. Just wanted to input that I'm a 38 Wizard with 15% avoidance and mitigation after this patch. Solo mobs as low as level 23 take me down faster than I can turn to start running now. My normal adventure group is a duo with my husband who plays an Inquisitor. We can't hunt anymore....that simple. No adventuring possible with things as they stand.</P> <P> </P> <P>Toralu 38 Wizard/48 Provisioner, Test Server</P>

Daffid011
04-15-2005, 07:28 PM
For reference I am a 34 berserker in mostly orange con equipment. Things I have noticed: Shields: tower shield 19%, kite 19%, round 4.7% and buckler 2.5%.  This also extends to whatever tier, ac, stats or anything the shield has.  That is to say a T1 tower shield with 20ac is giving me just as much block/avoidance as a T4 tower shield with 400+ ac.  Further more the AC provided by the shield does not in any way increase mitigation OR avoidance.  (P.S. What is with int/wis on tower shields that only warriors can use?) Shields now add MUCH more to overall avoidance.  Prepatch I gained about 5% overall avoidance so I mostly skipped using a shield.  Now shields add about 16-17% to my overall avoidance which is a little more valuable.  It is at least tactical to use a shield with these numbers I must say that a 1% difference is enough to differentiate tower vs kite (if it were working), but that is another topic for another time.  I will use a kite shield as I don't really like the tower shield graphic. Agility:  Does not seem to be affecting avoidance for my berserker.  Taking off just my jewelery side items and weapons my agility went from 105 to 65 and my avoidance numbers never changed.  Taking armor off raises avoidance like crazy, but that seems to be by design from the patch notes so that wasn't a controlled check.  Armor: Taking off my heavy plate armor did indeed make my avoidance go up from base 20.8% to 50something (I left my notes at home on this).  When I put on my city merchant light armor my avoidance didn't get harmed, but my mitigation was only around 17%. A monk I spoke to at the same level as me did have a significantly higher avoidance and a much lower mitigation than me.  27% mitigation and I seem to recall the avoidance around the low 50/high 40's.  mathmatically I guess it is a wash, but how it plays out in terms of tanking ability is beyond me.  There will be difference for sure though with these changes =) Overall I did notice there were several times that numbers were not rounding up/down properly.  Switching between different armors/buffs/etc I would often get two different numbers for the same setup.  IE:  20.8% avoidance then a few moments later 20.9% avoidance, that is the base setup I was using.  Buffs: Weapon shield: +8 to parry adds .7% to my overall avoidance Soldiers stance: +5def/+5 parry adds 1.2% Reckless stance: +7 defense adds 1% to my overall avoidance Havoc +150 to all physical resists:  adds 3% to overall avoidance short duration Battelcry +3 to all physical resists:  adds .5% to overall avoidance short duration (just for comparison) None of the above add anything to my mitigation Combat test: I was solo during my play time yesterday so all fights are self buffed only and took place in the Thundering steppes/Zek.  I fought there the previous day so that is my reference for comparisons pre/post change. Named giant Thuul something, level 29 ^^ green con to me.  (post change, thundering steppes) The first fight was very close as I noticed a large stretch of blocks/parrys in the middle.  I died with him at about 7% The next 2 fights I could not get him down past 60ish% before I had to run away. His power draining ability gave him an edge. Named centaur near the steelhoof hunter bridge (I forget his name).  Level 29 green ^ maybe ^^ (pre patch, thundering steppes) The entire encounter hit me maybe once and was easily dispatched. Either way I could solo these type encounters pretty easily before the patch Skeletal Veterans, level 29 green solo (post change, thundering steppes) These could now hit me and I would end up losing about 10-25% of my life by end of the fight The previous day these could not hit me save maybe one is 25 swings. Skeletal lt's, level 29 green ^^ (post change, thundering steppes) Around 25-50% life loss by end of fight.  Two of them overwhelmed me very fast.  Faster than I would have thought possible forcing me to run. Skeletal Troopers, level 26 grey solo (post change, thundering steppes) These could also now hit me and I would end up losing about 5-10% health by the end of fight. Again, the previous day these could not hit me, but maybe once in a blue moon. An orc field cook, level 30/31 solo (post change, Zek) I would end up losing anywhere from 15-40% of life from these by end of fight making them much tougher than they were the previous day. Tallon grunt, level 29 green solo (post change, Zek) Pretty much the same as skeletal veterans I have not gotten around to whites/yellows, but I do not expect the results will be favorable.  My opinion: 1) I can still hunt the same areas solo or small group, but the results are not going to be the same by a long shot.  2) havent tested full groups yet 3) Named creatures are significantly more dangerous 4) No opinion on healing yet. Combat feels watered down.  As a berserker I already lack real controll over my destiny in combat with any meaningful reactionary abilities and this seems to just take me down a peg more.  More later. <div></div>

LadyEternity
04-15-2005, 08:22 PM
<P>I convinced my husband ( after pleading ) to log on our Guardian/Templar combo to test things out. We are both level 28 (I dinged to 29 during play). We went down into the Crypts below Qeynos. The lower sections were green/blue to us. We hacked our way through solo's at the entrance to the heroics. First encounter we took on was 3 green con grouped mobs (heroic). I watched the guardian's HP closely. Before, green's couldn't touch him. He was pretty much an invulnerable metal tank when killing them. Now, he was getting hit about every other swing. Likewise, even green solo's were able to hit him with relatively no problems.</P> <P>I have read the posts above, and am curious (as I don't think it was stated), on the mobs that many of you said tore you up...where they group mobs or solo?</P> <P>Correct me if I am wrong, but this entire patch seems to be meant to put the 'challenge' back into combat. Before certain classes could 'solo' double up heroic mobs, some easily...some less easily...but most relying on the fact they were 'green'. Heroic encounters give to much exp for a solo character. They are designed to be divided exp wise in a group of 3 or more. So is this patch for combat to 'fix' the combat to be more challenging? Are solo encounters now not considered "worthless cannon fodder" and can provide a decent encounter challenge to solo/duo players? I am curious as to what exactly SOE intentions are.</P> <P>If infact the combat changes have been placed in to better balanced the mobs (solo,heroic,raid), and it is meant that heroic mobs are indeed now meant only for groups, then might I suggest another exp increase for solo mobs and a removal of exp penalty for duoing players.</P> <P>Lady Eternity</P>

Rondari
04-15-2005, 08:41 PM
<DIV>OK - I played a fair amount last night - Most of it was fighting grey con mobs because I am working my way through the PGT Heritage quest and I was on the 100 Skellie / 25 Skindance portion.  I would say that I do not remotely trust the Avoidance / Mitigation numbers in the UI because they seemed to be randomly changing for no reason.  During the evening I did have a chance to engage some greens / blues though.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can say that combat, even against greys, felt tougher.  So, this brings me to the question I feel compelled to ask:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Why would you tweak overland content in the game to make quests / mobs easier for solo / duo groups and then immediately tweak the combat system to make it tougher again?!?  The path you are on is a mystery to me....</STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rondari</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>p.s. To quote a famous bumb blonde:  The mind wobbles :/</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Shunidar
04-15-2005, 09:33 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Daffid011 wrote:<BR>For reference I am a 34 berserker in mostly orange con equipment.<BR><BR>  (P.S. What is with int/wis on tower shields that only warriors can use?)<BR><BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Yeah, that seems all fekkin'ed up <.<</DIV>

Daffid011
04-15-2005, 10:51 PM
From the combat upgrade patch notes "Our intent is that the game feels and plays basically the way it always has for soloers and small group players. Groups and raid forces taking on powerful targets should find a greater level of challenge." Rhond, I think they just missed the target a bit...   Cy, I will deal with you later. <div></div>

EtoilePirate
04-16-2005, 12:29 AM
<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <DIV>Hi folks. We can really use your help testing out the new combat changes that are going to Test along with Update #7. We're looking for specific feedback on questions like these:</DIV> <UL> <LI>If you solo or small group, can you still hunt in the same areas and face the same opponents with about the same results?<BR> <HR> </LI></UL></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I either solo or play pairs probably 95% of the time I'm playing, and I've been soloing only since this patch was introduced.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It is not good.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am very nearly a level 27 Assassin.  I'm still only at 95% of level 26, with a heap of XP debt, because I died three times in an hour this afternoon fighting blue, green, and grey solo creatures.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Today I went to go hunting in the Steppes.  I have a bunch of old "kill undead," "kill centaurs," and "kill griffons" quests clogging up my journal, so I figured I'd finish off level 26 by killing things.  After all, they're all blue and green solo greatures.  How much trouble could it be?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Then a pair of green griffons killed me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Okay, I thought, that's my fault.  I wasn't paying attention.  I recovered my shard and went to go fight undead in the Dead River Basin near the beach, instead.  Using Ranged skills, I selected green solo creatures and pulled them to me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is how I discovered that I'm now triggering aggro from greys.  I ended up with three greys (all level 20) on me while I was fighting one green (22) creature, and I died.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So I revived, and retrieved my shard, and reset my poison and my food and my few buffs and all, and I went back to the Dead River Basin, and I stealthed around for a while to make SURE that the green I was targeting wasn't grouped with anything, and I used an assassin skill to kill it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This time, I triggered aggro from one grey.  And the grey and the green between them were enough to kill me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It should not be like this.  I don't care if the goal of the change is to make it harder for a scout to tank for him- or herself, I should not be dying from grey-con creatures that should not even have attacked me in the first place.  And others report similar problems.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I didn't mind the changes TOO much the first day, since I'd recently been breezing through yellow-con fairies far too easily, and thought maybe a change was warranted.  But I have good armor and good weapons and good skills... no way a zombie six levels below me should take me out without a problem.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(Also, I can't help but compulsively Inspect every other player I come across, which is many, and across the board, from levels 9 through 45, I have not seen a single Avoidance of higher than 33%.  Mine, at 31% [down from 54.9% before the change] is one of the highest I've seen anywhere, which seems silly at best.)</DIV><p>Message Edited by EtoilePB on <span class=date_text>04-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:32 PM</span>

yaen
04-16-2005, 01:46 AM
> This is how I discovered that I'm now triggering aggro from greys.  I ended up with three greys (all level 20) on me while I was fighting one green (22) creature <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>hopefully this is not an intended change...</DIV>

LadyEternity
04-16-2005, 03:26 AM
<P>I took my Conjurer into Stormhold with my husbands Monk. A few times we got BAF from greys. Social needs to be set to like creatures I think. I thought it was a tad silly that a grey sentry would jump in to aid a life leech <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Further more, BAF needs to be attuned some. Undead should not BAF. They are mindless undead. Zombies shouldn't either. Bears...yeah..or humanoid (Gnolls and Orcs). Slimes, Jellies and such shouldn't BAF either, just doesn't make sense. Baf denotes socialized structure. And I highly doubt that life leeches are social in a semi- intelligent manner. Heh.</P> <P>Also to note:</P> <P>Before this patch my Summoner (who is not a Conjurer) could kill green-orange conning solo's. Now yellow and white con rip my pet sideways. Orange con is almost a sure aggro on the Conjurer due to healing. Myself, I am getting pounded now by blue solo's. Downarrowed groups are rather challenging for me now <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Lady Eternity</P>

Corlin
04-16-2005, 03:32 AM
Patch notes said that AGI buffs would not matter as much now.  Confirmed.  40th level troubador, can self buff AGI from 121 (base) to 282.  Avoidance raised from 29.5% to 30.0%.  Most of these songs (which were staples in any group situation) are now sorta useless.  Have to figure out some other role to play.

Corlin
04-16-2005, 03:48 AM
<P>Troubador - level 40 - all fulginate chainmail (brand new and nicely orange con) except BP (blue) and bracer (green).  All combat arts are Adept 1, except one App 2 and all buff songs are Adept 3.</P> <P>and to answer your specific questions Moorgard ==></P> <UL> <LI><FONT color=#ffff00><EM><STRONG>If you solo or small group, can you still hunt in the same areas and face the same opponents with about the same results?</STRONG></EM></FONT></LI></UL> <P>No.  40th troubador battling Sullon guardians (level 38 and 39s) in Zek.  They con blue, well suited to an individual, mildly dangerous, you should be able to win without much trouble.  Two days ago, neither was a problem.  Solo mobs, even a bard can best them.  Today the 38 gets me down to 20-30h, but I win.  The 39th (still blue) I got down to 39h before he killed me.  I was going to escape at when my health was 13%, but was stunned and stunned and then dead.  Escape will no longer be a get out of jail free card, as you now need to start firing it much earlier in the battle.</P> <UL> <LI><FONT color=#ffff00><EM><STRONG>If you play in full groups, do you find it more challenging now or about the same?</STRONG></EM></FONT></LI></UL> <P>Havent found a group that wants a bard since this change.  My DPS is awful, and my buffs dont help any more.  I will try to scrounge up some friends for testing, but it's not looking pretty at the moment.</P> <UL> <LI><FONT color=#ffff00><EM><STRONG>If you take on named targets or raid mobs (at any level), do they feel more challening? If so, in what way? </STRONG></EM></FONT></LI></UL> <P>Ditto above.</P> <UL> <LI><FONT color=#ffff00><EM><STRONG>Does healing feel adequate with the new combat changes?</STRONG></EM></FONT></LI></UL> <P>I can only heal for 24 points every 6 seconds (Quiron's Joyous Celebration, Adept 1).  That is not adequate, but wasnt before either.  Bard healing is fluff, I understand that, but if I am soloing it's all I got.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00><EM><STRONG>Basically, we want to know how different the combat feels. Please provide specific examples of level range, mobs, zones, and other information on where you see the differences and what they are.</STRONG></EM></FONT></P> <P>Soloing has become worse (noticeably so) for a 40th troubador.  Not that I soloed much, but now its not an option.  Worse than that, my group usefulness is gone now.  I realize you need to adjust combat, but bards were all about buffs.</P><p>Message Edited by Corlin on <span class=date_text>04-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:01 PM</span>

Evadne
04-16-2005, 04:08 AM
<div></div>Specifically addressing heal/priest balance. Everyone who knows me knows I have been soloing in The Feerrott since I was a 34 defiler, 37 provisioner.  I fight the conscripts, solo mobs that are affected by the giant nuke.  I basically use HO nuking tactic as waiting for my dots to fully pan out takes too long and they were beating me down when they were orange.  But, it was great xp.  Tough but great.  I am 38 now, still there and I can still solo some yellows and oranges.  Not as well, but not appreciably different. However, I heal more and have less power at the end of the fight.  I also get interrupted a great deal more. Annoyingly so.  Perhaps that is why I am losing more health. Now, from what I hear.  Last night the guild took a group to Tombs of Night.  1 healer, 32 shaman, Osen.  Grobb and Fleeona mentoring down to 34.  They had 3 others in the group but just the one healer.  The mobs were blue and rare were the "double arrow up mobs."  From what I understand, Osen could not keep up with the damage. It was a losing fight.  She couldn't spam her wards/heals fast enough the tanks took so much damage. The aggro generated by healing was also nasty.  The general summation was, like in beta, you have to have two priests.  That was a complaint of mine in beta and I hate to see it reborn.  So, the issue is vulnerability vs heals.  If you need groups to fight group mobs, the healing power of a single priest should be sufficient to successfully fight mobs that are level appropriate, blue,white and occaisional yellow.  Inattention should kill, backspawn, poor pulling....but  lack of healers past one should not.  A ward/heal for others only that is more powerful than a self ward/heal could be a way towards this. So, it wont help you solo, but it will help in groups. Okay, there you have my thoughts. ~Eva <div></div><p>Message Edited by Evadne on <span class=date_text>04-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:09 PM</span>

Proudfoot
04-16-2005, 05:09 AM
<P>Hi folks. We can really use your help testing out the new combat changes that are going to Test along with Update #7. We're looking for specific feedback on questions like these:</P> <UL> <LI>If you solo or small group, can you still hunt in the same areas and face the same opponents with about the same results?</LI></UL> <P>---<BR><FONT color=#ffff66>Yes. And No on one point.<BR>Yes: Solo mobs haven't changed much, bears are still uber (dang bezerkers) but my 24th monk can hold his own on what I've fought so far, that wasn't heroic. My 28 Guardian is ok because he's with a 29 Templar, no real impact on those two on solo content.<BR>No: My main character, level 28 Fury, is not able to play with my wife's Necro at this time because of the pet heal/buff issues already mentioned in another thread for you.<BR></FONT>---</P> <UL> <LI>If you play in full groups, do you find it more challenging now or about the same?</LI></UL> <P>---<BR><FONT color=#ff3333>No comment.<BR></FONT>---</P> <UL> <LI>If you take on named targets or raid mobs (at any level), do they feel more challening? If so, in what way?</LI></UL> <P>---<BR><FONT color=#ffff66>Yes: 28 Guardian/Templar took on the named Mino in Crypt of Betrayl last night. "T" something, don't remember his full name. He con'd blue double up arrow to us. He was pretty nasty, hit up to 300 a couple of times which dropped my health quick. By the end of the fight me and the Templar had one bubble of power left. And he was only blue! I'd say the challenge was that every 5th swing he'd hit REAL hard for some reason. Was almost a repeating pattern.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff66>Yes 2.0: 20 Monk/Conjurer (My 24th monk mentored down) in Stormhold. We took on the named skele that spawns in the main hallway near entrance (green double up with one friend green down arrow). Wasn't much of a problem. However, the cook was nasty nasty. (Cook being that red blob in the room by chessboard; don't remember exact name currently). That thing was green double arrow as well but his nukes were just devestating. Killed the Conjurer's pet in less than 10 seconds, and even after Mending myself, we won with me (monk) having ~85hp left (out of ~750). Don't really want to fight him again.<BR></FONT>---</P> <UL> <LI>Does healing feel adequate with the new combat changes?</LI></UL> <P>---<BR><FONT color=#ffff66>Only healer I have is my Fury, and since I haven't played him much, nor do I usually use direct heals, I can't comment :smileytongue:.<BR></FONT>---</P> <P>Basically, we want to know how different the combat feels. Please provide specific examples of level range, mobs, zones, and other information on where you see the differences and what they are.</P> <P>As always, your help is much appreciated. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>---<BR><FONT color=#ffff66>Your listening is much appreciated.<BR></FONT>---</P>

HanktheDwarf
04-16-2005, 11:59 AM
<ul> <li>If you solo or small group, can you still hunt in the same areas and face the same opponents with about the same results?</li> </ul> Solo mobs are not any harder than they used to be really.  I can take on, for the most part, yellow solo encounters, including the 2 solo, 3 single down mob, 4 double down mob encounters with relative easy.  Cavern of Tangled Weeds or what have you was pretty easy. <ul> <li>If you play in full groups, do you find it more challenging now or about the same?</li> </ul> The elaborate on the full group stuff.  34 SK (me), 45 Bruiser, 33 Wizard, 32 Defiler, 30 Brigand.  Went to Nektropos. Fought Elise while the 45 was mentored down to me (conned yellow). Fairly straight forward, but I did die because the Defilers wards weren't coming up fast enough.  Decided to fight the rest unmentored.  Got to Jeni, and she whupped us.  Dotted us all and took down the group wards like nothing.  The monk was able to stay alive and not get hit much.  But since the priest died without giving out feathers, we had to leave. Went to D'morte's (first one).  The bruiser was mentored down to level 30 and we added the 26 Paladin.  The level 35 single up arrows were relatively little problem to us and cleaned them all out in record time. Went up to Tomb of Night.  The bruiser was mentored to me at level 34, and the Brigand was now 31.  We got a little two eager and got a few double up green mobs on us and almost all died.  Took our time the second time and went to fight the sporechanters for the rock.  Killed them and started fighting the soul parasite, but the Mold Reaper got on us and almost cleaned us out (luckily, the front door was just out of aggro range).  <ul> <li>If you take on named targets or raid mobs (at any level), do they feel more challening? If so, in what way?</li> </ul> We gathered our forces and took on El Molderino. Nice and full, we killed everything but ole' Moldy before the can of whoop heiny was opened.  One of us was able to get away.  Even with us just fighting him alone, we were barely able to kill him. I was able to solo Ladon at level 34 with ease.  But when I went to Condemned catacombs, the level 28 ^^ watcher guys just kicked me all over the place.  <ul> <li>Does healing feel adequate with the new combat changes?</li> </ul> Healing (or warding, to be exact) is the exact same as it was before.  But with the whoop *$%#&! mobs (as they stand now), there just isn't enough to go around. Suggestions?  Why drastically change the way combat works?  Keep it simple.  Put a cap on how much mitigation and avoidance can be buffed.  Take out parry buffs (don't make much sense if you ask me).  The damage bonus works nice, but don't know how the high end mobs are on the whole agility having thing. <div></div>

Zindicatt
04-16-2005, 08:23 PM
<P>I did some more testing last night.</P> <P>A 40 Defiler, 35 Inquisitor, and a 32 Shadowknight could not take on a level 35 ++ named bear in EL.  </P> <P>We tried it twice, once with the Shadowknight tanking, another time with the defiler tanking.  In both cases, Ward was dropping just about every hit.  When the mob was at around 50-60% health, the Defiler was OOP, and anyone tanking was getting hit very fast and hard so the Inquisitor had no way to keep up healing.</P> <P>Before the change, a 36 defiler, 36 Wizard, 28 Shadowknight and 30 Inquisitor (same people) was able to take the same mob, who conn'ed blue to us.</P> <P>We can argue that the Wizard was not around. But I hope you can see the problem here.  I am hoping that it is not your intention to make it so that a level 40 cannot take down a ++ mob who is barely green, with help from two others.  </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

EtoilePirate
04-17-2005, 02:19 AM
<DIV>I know I replied to this once already yesterday, but I just logged in again today and now I've got more to say.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've just discovered that Nek is essentially unplayable for a 27 Assassin.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I encountered the same phenomenon as yesterday: I targeted a solo green-con creature, "well suited to an individual," made <U>sure</U> it was alone, and attacked it.  It was a Rumbleroot Sapling, level 23, not very deep into Nek.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Within seconds, I was mobbed by 10 (yes, ten) grey  22- and 21- Rumbleroot Saplings; I hit Escape (my new favorite skill, since this change) as soon as they mobbed me and returned to the Nek entrance with about 3% health left, out of a maximum 1245 HP.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is absolutely no good whatsoever.  If a late-20s scout can't live in the Steppes and can't live in Nek, where on earth is she supposed to play?  Until this patch I considered my favorite character to be a deadly stealth kitty.  Now she's just a stealth kitty, because if she unstealths anywhere besides Freeport she's dead in seconds.  (Also when I hit 27 my Avoidance went down to 30% from 31%, not that the 1% makes much of a difference.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I really hate it when people carry on about patches making their characters useless and the game unplayable, but this time I'm feeling it.  My regular playing partner is a Dirge two levels below me, and we used to make a really good team as long as we were careful.  But with most of his buffs being rendered essentially useless, I doubt we'd survive an encounter with a solo owlbear.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My armor is about half medium and about half light, a mix of leather and carbonite chain, all level 30.  I know that the tanks are fighting naked to survive, but I doubt it would make as much of a difference for me.</DIV>

LadyEternity
04-17-2005, 05:54 AM
<DIV>I have more input now. I played almost all day with my Necro (level 30). She has normal gear on for her level, some quested...but mostly crafted...oh and Varsoon's Robe. All her jewelry gives mainly to agility, int and power.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Today, as she is almost 31, I deemed "Quest  clean up" day. So basically I decided to push getting some of her TS quests finished in preparation for the move to Enchanted Lands. I am doing the last of the quests for the named centaur quester, the one where you have to find the 'rare' mineral. Anyhow, a step is to kill weard wolves. 20 of them. Well after searching high and low, I finally find a pack of them...with a pack leader...all one downarrow...and all grey (level 25 I believe). So I am thinking..Oh well...it's trivial....it's grey. I killed tons of greys in Fallen Gate to finish those quests...this will be np. I pull the pack with my lifetap dot...start casting my aoe disease dot....wham they hit me all at once. And I mean HIT me. Like 8 down arrow dogs..all hitting me...for damage as if they were blue! And none of them were missing. I couldn't even get a spell off, it was interrupt after interrupt. After about 10 seconds of frantic button mashing trying to get a spell off...I had to run...with only a bubble of life left...</DIV> <DIV>So I am thinking "it was a fluke.." and I try again...and again and again. Each time I got creamed. Only one time did I get lucky enough to get all my dots off and actually killed the grey wolves...the entire pack...but I only had a sliver of health left.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My issues:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1: Greys give NO exp, NO loot. I feel that if it is trivial, then it should dern well best be trivial <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2: No grey creature should be able to do what the above encounter did. I am way above them. They should be wiffing like mad, and if it were a caster...I should be resisting everything pratically they threw at me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Right now: I think the changes are a bit "off". Whites should give you a good fight, Blue should hurt, Green should be a push over, and grey should be trivial.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As it is now: Whites kick your [Removed for Content]. Blue never miss and hit little less the whites, green never misses, and grey hardly ever misses...plus seems to hit you for full damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyhow, just my observations. I am all for kicking the group content and raid content up a notch or two, to deter soloing of group content and provide an all around more challenging experience....but the solo creatures are way out of wack difficulty wise. If encounters are going to be this hard I suggest increasing exp ( as there will be more downtime...and people will have to kill lower con ), and allow greys to drop loot. The entire risk vs reward thing is what loot is all about. Well, if greys are going to be able to whomp bootie that much, then they need to reward the player for taking the risk and not getting exp for it. OR you -could- broaden the "con system" so that it stretches out a bit more... things stay green/blue/white/yellow/orange longer. Just some thoughts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lady Eternity</DIV>

DivineIntervention
04-17-2005, 06:58 AM
I have been playing solo and in small groups for awhile now, I am a swashbuckler. <ul> <li>If you solo or small group, can you still hunt in the same areas and face the same opponents with about the same results?</li> </ul> I have found, since playing with the changes for last few days the following.  <ul> <li>Green Groups (coning for individual) and Blue Singles seem about same difficulty, no large change in the damage done to me and dealt out by me.</li> <li>Blue Groups (coning for individual) and White Singles seem to do alot more damage to me, and interrupt me alot more often.  I see a slight reduction in the damage I deal to them, and end up with between 10% and 30% health left.  This is a definate change from before where I would win these fights easily with well over 50% of my health left. </li> <li>White Groups (coning for individual) and Yellow Singles interrupt me nearly constantly, I can maybe get off 1/4 of the special attacks I used to, I end up running away from these encounters or dying without much chance of winning.  This is marketed different then before where I had probably a 75% chance of winning these fights.</li> </ul>  - Divine <div></div>

Eelyen
04-17-2005, 09:56 AM
<P>I apologize if this jumps around a bit.  But this is my first set of thoughts on the changes.  Will be continuing my testing tomorrow as well on tougher mobs.  I am of course a Guardian, so tanking is my thing <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P><SPAN class=postbody>The changes introduce a few large problems.  These include fighting with grey mobs, skill caps causing extra classes to be useless on buffs, and multi-mob groups to be much tougher. <BR><BR>This change has seriously made skills obselete. As a guardian I can buff people's defense by 14+ and myself around 20+ but thats not longer the case. I now have a useless set of skills. Plus after my buffs are in Place, Waji (40 troubador) wasn't even able to raise people's avoidance more then like 0.5% with all of her stat buffs. Not to mention if we had a Paladin or something in the party with avoidance buff. The pally's buffs would of been <SPAN><STRONG>completely</STRONG></SPAN> useless to the group.<BR><BR>The skill caps have to go. Or a complete redesign of skills needs to be redone.<BR><BR>Also, we just spent a good 6+ hours in Obelisk of Lost souls on the 2nd level. Where stuff was mostly blue and white to me at level 44. I had 2 templars (Klunky L44 and Mithrias L46) for healing and our dps was just Waji (40 troubador) and Hilda (46 guardian). We did fine for the most part.<BR><BR>We also did take out a level 38^^^ Epic x2 mob with just the 5 of us. We did have 2 templars, but when it was about 30 they were still a little above 50. So it might of been possible with just 1 templar and more dps. But we did down it. But it was 6 levels below me so was still easier to tank as a green.<BR><BR>The only 2 times I died is when these stupid eyeballs blasted me with Nil Distortion. I remember specially the second time I got killed by it. The eyeball casted a <STRONG>2800+</STRONG> damage nil distortion followed 1 second later by a <STRONG>1800</STRONG> dmg Dark distortion, followed by a 272 hit which killed me. That kind of damage output is insane, especially on a <STRONG>non-named</STRONG>. Plus the eyeball did another 1800 dmg nil distortion about 5 or so seconds before the first one. Two templars were unable to keep me up with 5500+ hp. And both are the best darn healers I've grouped with. Well Giddasay is very good too.<BR><BR>Other then that, our grind/endless_camp_for_access_quest_named mobs went pretty smoothly and there wasn't much issue about tanking blue mobs. When we got a couple of "groups" of mobs. It was more of a dps fight. But I could easily still handle tanking 2 blue double ups alot easier then fighting 2 groups of 3+<BR><BR>With the Tower shield and buffs I was pushing about 40ish % avoidance the entire night and mitigation about 54ish. But this leads back to the problem with the skill caps. I literally couldn't get my avoidance buffed up more then about 2-3%. And my mitigation up by about 14%. Now getting my mitigation up 14% was pretty standard with normal buffs. But this made the best Fighter HO completely useless. <STRONG>Hero's Armor</STRONG>. Which used to bump up Mitigation about 10% for 6 minutes and is the rare HO. Now it does <SPAN>Absolutely Nothing</SPAN> because I'm already at the cap due to the skill caps.<BR><BR>Prior to the change I could push low 70s with full buffs in both mitigation and avoidance (with shield).<BR><BR>Again these skill caps make buffs from other classes virtually useless. </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=postbody>With that, I'd also like to comment on my dislike of how these changes <STRONG>force</STRONG> me to have to use a shield in every single tanking situation practically now.  I perferred being able to switch between a shield and 2handed weapons based off when offensive and defensive power needed to be utilized to the fullest.  I mean we know that guardians have the most awesome dps in the game, but come on.  <--- yes that was sarcasism. <BR><BR>Also alot of skills are reporting inacurate numbers. Stuff like Retaliate, says it will only do 196 dmg, but I'm still pushing high 300s to low 400s with it. Which is what it used to say. Also my Overwhelm (slashing skill) Master I now says 61-78 dmg but I still do in the mid 100s with it.<BR><BR>I haven't had a chance to test out grinding on mobs that are yellow or orange yet. But hopefully will try that Sunday in like Permafrost or Lavastorm. And see how the changes work out there. <BR><BR>On the issue of greys, this needs to be fixed. Mobs con literally saying <SPAN><STRONG>This creature is no challenge at all for you</STRONG>.</SPAN> And so they should be no challenge at all. I should be able to farm greys all day without needing the help of anyone and not have to worry about potentially dying. And I'm hearing stories from others how mobs 10 levels below them are kicking their [Removed for Content]. This isn't right. If they want to keep these changes they need to <STRONG><SPAN>seriously upgrade avoidance</SPAN> on grey mobs</STRONG>. After grinding for 4+ hours I like to sit back and work on some quests. I don't want to have to put in alot of effort to kill greys unless I want to do it faster. I like to be able to turn attack on, go afk and get a drink and come back without worry of getting my butt kicked. This needs to be adjusted.<BR><BR>Overall, I can't say I like the changes. The game seemed fine the way it was, although supposidly there was a problem in the raid situation where buffs were too strong. But I don't think it warrented this. I thought content was a good enough challenge.</SPAN><SPAN class=postbody><BR></P></SPAN> <P>Message Edited by Eelyen on <SPAN class=date_text>04-17-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:06 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Eelyen on <span class=date_text>04-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:11 AM</span>

Eelyen
04-18-2005, 08:42 AM
<P>Here was my update that I posted in the guardian subclass forum.  I'll add some more too it here.</P> <P></P> <HR> <P>Well Judging from more tests tonight.  A Berserker of Equal Level as a Guardian can cap at the same level of Mitigation and Avoidance as a guardian, as Bersekers can use Tower shields to my surprise tonight (where did I miss that?). </P> <P>So basically the only difference between a Berserker and a Guardian at this point is the fact that Bersekers have superior DPS and aggro capabilities.  And that Guardians can increase their mitigation very slightly towards types of physical damage.</P> <P>I still have to do more tests to see how it plays out.  We have a parser in our group that parses avoidance and dps and the like.  I have a very hard time holding aggro off the berserkers.  I"m always out of power.</P> <P>But I would have to say, with the way things are right now.  Guardians are virtually Berserkers with 25-50% less dps and aggro. </P> <P><STRONG>Now don't get me wrong, this is just some perception from my tests so far.  There are supposed to be more changes coming.  Hopefully it will be to fix this lame avoidance and mitigation bs they put in 3 days ago.  So I'm not going to tell you to scream out and whine just yet.  I'm just trying to keep you informed of what I'm seeing on my daily groups.</STRONG></P> <P>We did try to take on a Epic x2 level 45 mob ^^^, with 5 adds (Some with down arrows).  We decided to use the 50 berserker in our group to tank it.  This is when I learned beserkers could use tower shields.  Since the mob was 5 levels below Badkore.  We figured, that he would get better avoidance then I would at level 44 obviously.   We had a 45 Templar and a 39 Warden for heals.  With a 41 Berserker and a 41 Troubador as other dps besides me.  So we pulled and engaged it, and got the adds down in under 1 minute I think.  But badkore (50 berserker) was getting so pounded, that the warden was oom and the templar was at ~30% mana when we got all the adds down.   And badkore went down shortly after, then the bard...then it came after me (I was the add assist).  But the warden evac'd us.   Going to try it again when I hit 45 (need 5%) tomorrow probably and see how it goes.</P> <P>Blue mobs are still usually not a problem in a group.  Although I have to admit, we did test the avoidance of the nightbloods in Rivervale.  And basically they were missing me around 37-40% of the time on average.  About what my avoidance was.  Although all the Lamia's in the zone were only missing me about 8% of the time, and they were blue.  So one time when I got about 3-4 of them on me with 2 nightbloods.  I was getting spanked and only avoiding about 1 hit out of every 10 hits.  I got killed and the group evac'd. </P> <P>Later in the evening we were in the Drafling tower.  White cons were not really a problem.  I was able to effectively tank 3 double up arrow mobs with the templar and warden as my healers.  But when we got 3 yellow double up arrow mobs, it was a different story and I was getting spanked.  Although yellow mobs were still not that hard fighting 1 group at a time.  Maybe 2 groups.  3 gets rather rough.  Didn't get alot of chance to test it, but initially it didn't seem too bad.  Just gotta be careful about those 3 group pulls.</P> <P>Here's to looking forward to a patch on Monday hopefully!</P> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Buffs are still practically useless.  I'm pretty at the buffed cap full time for mitigation and avoidance.  So tons of buffs need to be completely rebalanced if the current caps are gonna be solid.  But I suggest raising the avoidance cap more, there is no need for it to be stuck so low. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, I don't fully believe that Guardians and Berserkers are equal under this current system.  To be honest, I need to do more testing to see the true differences between the too.  But I do know the bersekers I group with have much better dps on a regular basis and much better aggro then I do on a regular basis.  Even with the fixed gaurdian skills.  If one of those berskers gets aggro, I have to go through all of my taunts atleast 2 or 3 times and I might get it back.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, after we finished grouping, I decided to help a couple of mid 20s out on a BSV raid for their lightstones.  We went in with me unmentored first.  Now 4 days ago, I could of gone in there and solo'd the first part of that raid without event so much as just hitting auto-attack on.  Which is how it should be for mobs that are <STRONG>over 20 levels below me. </STRONG>But what happened was that the mobs kept hitting me and hitting me.   Alot of the hits were for under 10 damage.  Some were in the 20s, but not many.  I didn't avoid alot.  So having 30 orcs beat the heck out of you with low damage.  Still brings you down. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>What this points to saying is that <FONT color=#ff0000>HEALERS </FONT>are going to again be required for just about every little thing people do in this game.  The holy trinity is returning.  Now I'm a tank, so honestly I can't say I really care about it.  </STRONG>But I know there are alot of people who have developed duo's and the like that don't really have a healer or a tank.  And they are suffering much harder from these changes then I am.  I have a steady daily group I can log on and play with, so these changes have far less effect on me.  <STRONG>Not implying</STRONG> that people still can't kill stuff.  But there is a <EM>difference </EM>between a challenge and very frustrating content.  A <STRONG>challenge </STRONG>is something you want to experience and overcome.  <STRONG>Frustrating content </STRONG>is something where you wish you could relax and enjoy your time, but you are constantly hitting roadblocks or being killed or encountering bugs or what not.  And you get frustrated and frustrated and don't have any fun.  Thats what some people are going to be experience and are experiencing by these changes. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't know what SoE has planned for the other parts of these changes, I've mostly only heard about healing balancing.  But that only makes my point even stronger about how the Holy Trinity is returning from Everquest one.  Now I love challenges, I always did in EQ1.  But again I say, just be sure to look at the difference between challenge and frustration as you make these changes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Plus, Greys should not be kicking my butt, I repeat.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Danka <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Will do more testing as the week goes on.</DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Silverdrop
04-18-2005, 12:23 PM
While things definitly seems to have changed, my solo-experience hasn't changed all that much. As a Templar at level 29, I still did yellows (no arrows) solo in Enchanted Lands (Both melee oriented and caster oriented mobs). I think the reason why it hasn't changed all that much is that the yellows I solo-ed before were already pretty much hitting me all the time, so there's not that much difference. I did notice that greens and greys were hitting me much more frequently than before and thus interupting me a lot more than greens did before. All in all, as long as I'm not in risk of running out of power, I still do fine because of still decent mitigation (a lil over 40%) and the reactive heals. I did notice that I am unable to get off a HO slightly more often now because of the increase in interuptions. I can't judge on group-combat as I haven't experienced any since the patch (but if the reactions of the guild-members is anything to go by it's not pretty. Seeing the reports of some other (playing different classes) players on solo combat the experiences differ significantly. Soloing ability seems to depend heavily on the class which cannot be a good thing. Shevaghn, Lvl 30 Templar <div></div>

Shunidar
04-18-2005, 06:01 PM
I was out duoing with our 29/29 fury/monk combo.  I am able to buff the monks agi by about 50.  Much to my dismay, that translates into 0.1% avoidance.

EtoilePirate
04-18-2005, 07:45 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Eelyen wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>this points to saying is that <FONT color=#ff0000>HEALERS </FONT>are going to again be required for just about every little thing people do in this game.  The holy trinity is returning.  Now I'm a tank, so honestly I can't say I really care about it.  </STRONG>But I know there are alot of people who have developed duo's and the like that don't really have a healer or a tank.  And they are suffering much harder from these changes then I am.  I have a steady daily group I can log on and play with, so these changes have far less effect on me.  <STRONG>Not implying</STRONG> that people still can't kill stuff.  But there is a <EM>difference </EM>between a challenge and very frustrating content.  A <STRONG>challenge </STRONG>is something you want to experience and overcome.  <STRONG>Frustrating content </STRONG>is something where you wish you could relax and enjoy your time, but you are constantly hitting roadblocks or being killed or encountering bugs or what not.  And you get frustrated and frustrated and don't have any fun.  Thats what some people are going to be experience and are experiencing by these changes. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Plus, Greys should not be kicking my butt, I repeat.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>These are my concerns, as well.  I don't play in a large regular group, because I do not like to play in a large regular group.  I acknowledge that there will be times when I need a group of a certain strength or composition, and that's cool.  It's an MMORPG, I get that.  I meet people, play with them for an afternoon or an evening, we get the job done, then it breaks up and I go back to being my stealth assassin self, sneaking up behind solo mobs and killing them dead before they know I'm there, playing my character <U>as I see fit</U>.</P> <P>I don't play with a healer at all times, nor do I ever wish to.  For whatever reason, this game and particularly the Test server is very conducive to couples, and I happen to like playing either solo or as a duo with my boyfriend.  Although he has a priest (technically so do I, though mine's only level 9), he should not be forced to play that character just so I can fight solo creatures.  Nor should I have to go grind my priest through fifteen levels just so I can protect his mid-20s Dirge butt.</P> <P>Eelyen put it very well: I haven't been out in the field since I discovered that greys in Nek/TS eat me for lunch, because it's frustrating and with no solution except to take 2-3 other players with me wherever I go.  Challenging is knowing how to choose your battles, and understanding that once in a while you may lose even if you fight well.  Frustrating is realizing that your best character has spent three days in a tradeskill instance because she can't even take on green and grey mobs without dying anymore, and therefore can't finish any of her quests or move on to the next tier of play.</P> <P>EQ2 has been very good about allowing every player to play the game as she or he sees fit.  I choose to be a solo assassin, for example, knowing that I could get through a lot of quests more quickly and easily as a fighter with a healer around.  But still, the game allows me to make that choice, and until now it has been a VIABLE choice, and so I have enjoyed my time.  I don't want new changes to disallow the styles of play that I happen to enjoy.  Sure, there are a lot of cool folks on the Test server, but I shouldn't have to convince four of them to come with me to take on a grey mob.</P> <P>(Edited for stupid typos.  Raaaaah.)</P> <p>Message Edited by EtoilePB on <span class=date_text>04-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:41 AM</span>

Daffid011
04-18-2005, 11:26 PM
<span><blockquote><hr>Shunidar wrote:I was out duoing with our 29/29 fury/monk combo.  I am able to buff the monks agi by about 50.  Much to my dismay, that translates into 0.1% avoidance. <div></div><hr></blockquote>That is just a rounding error in the character stat sheet.  Take off your buffs/equipment enough and you will see it change as the random seed (or something) changes.  /revenge </span><div></div>

Ceruline
04-19-2005, 12:53 AM
<DIV>The rounding error causes the base splits to remain the same when the overall avoidance is shifting by a tenth of a percent or so - the issue here is that agi has gone from being a primary determinant of defensive success to nearly negligible.  Huge amounts of agi buff are moving base avoidance by a few tenth of a percent (I've done 80some odd point differentials - others have done well over a hundred points of agi difference and moved base avoidance perhaps .7%)- this has enormous ramifications for the ability of the scout archetype to solo, and even larger ones for bards who are extremely reliant on their ability to increase defense through agi as part of the primary value they offer to groups (And are reliant on self buffing agi tobe effective solo).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is only poorly counterbalanced by agility reducing the strength bonus to damage  (Damage bonus is determined now by attacked strength vs. defender agility) as my Dirge is taking a lot more damage now, and blues are occasionally leaving him under 30% health.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I haven't tested with different armor types yet - I plan to do that tonight and compare the avoidance verse mitigation tradeoffs</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Sebastien
04-19-2005, 10:33 AM
<font size="4"><b><font color="#ff0000">General feedback-</font></b></font> As far as the theory behind these changes, I applaud you folks for doing the smart thing.  Rather than applying bandaids, you are looking at the all-or-nothing nature of avoidance, and fixing that.  While that is alarming for many posters on these boards, it impresses me that you are still willing to go back to the drawing board and put in that kind of effort. The general plan of hit more often, but not as hard, is definitely the right approach, imo. As has probably been said, though, the removal of parry for casters really only hurts soloists, and casual players in odd duos and trios.  Since your stated goal was to modify group and epic dynamics, I do believe the removal of parry runs contrary to that goal.  Not many people care if the wizard can parry when they are in a full party, but it does come into play when a wizard tries to duo or solo. Consider the option to simply cut its cap to 1/2 of what it normally is, for example. I like the tradeoff between mitigation and avoidance you are adding to the various armor types.  My sense from other testers is that this tradeoff is not yet properly balanced.  In particular, avoidance just doesn't seem to be working well for scouts. Lastly, the idea of caps, imo, is a bad one.  This goes back to my previous statement of bandaid fixes v. curing the problem.  A cap is a bandaid fix.  It is a way of compensating for a buff system that has not been well designed.  I think you will later regret such a system, as it has a way of killing a lot of incentives for high-end play, sooner or later.  A better approach would be to look at the extent of these buffs, and the manner in which they can stack with one another.  This is a more satisfying solution, and also favors casual play, as it allows small or "imperfectly" designed parties the opportunity to achieve similar, if not ideal, performance, compared to spec'd parties. <font size="4"><b><font color="#ff0000">Specific feedback-</font></b></font> I have a level 12 shammy on Test now, and played her through with two other guildmates, mage and fighter.  All content seemed to be of an appropriate difficulty in this level range.  I could solo ^^ greens, and some ^^ blues, although those were very hard.  Solo encounters up to yellow and *almost* orange were ok.  Solo encounters with groups of mobs were alright up to white; yellow was just pushing it too far.  The main problems became interrupts and resists. I can at least provide feedback on one change that you made, which was smoothing out the transition from level 9 to level 10 mobs.  At levels 8-9 we trio'd some ^^ mobs in Castle Ruins.  The level 10 mobs were very hard for us, as a fighter/mage/priest trio.  We could do them, but it required extensive use of HO strategy, and I highly doubt the average new player could do that.  Without using the HO's to the extent that we did, we could not have defeated the level 10 mobs as a trio. Whether that is your intent or not is up to you, but that is my observation.  You might need to do a bit more smoothing.  Most new players to the game at level 8 would have looked like we did: half nekkid.  Fully armorered and with new weapons, things might have been different.  Still, I considered our configuration to be pretty representative of the average subscriber making his or her first character. Soloing without the parry seemed fine to me at level 12, except for interrupts and resists, which effectively turned me from a caster into a very week fighter.  I do not feel that an orange con mob should resist nearly every time, but they were.  Mob stats may scale up a bit too quickly in this level range. My overall impression was that the game has been challenging but fair so far, under the new rules.  However, challenging for me would be too hard for the average player who is still trying to learn the game.  (not trying to pat myself on the back; but I do know the game a lot better than the typical first-time level 10 would). <div></div>

Sebastien
04-19-2005, 11:01 AM
<div></div><div></div>Oh.  Excited to see that the damage reduction to NPC's is already being put onto Test.  This should provide the chance to do more accurate testing of the new avoidance mechanics.  Also, a few things that slipped my mind: (1) In order for avoidance tanking to be practical for a brawler wearing light, their avoidance will need to be higher than a scout's, yes?  Is this the case, with the numbers being reported on Test? (2) Some scouts, particularly predators, were among the poorest soloists in the game.  Significant nerfs to their ability to avoid and mitigate will not help, and I think this is worth considering (need to see what they report after the mob DPS reduction).  Consider boosting round shield effectiveness?  Perhaps the soloing scout will then make a voluntary tradeoff of DPS in order to obtain avoidance similar or better to what they had pre-change. (3) Is there adequate incentive for a Scout to wear medium? (4) Shield block mechanics: [Removed for Content]?  I tried to begin a small, informal study of these mechanics <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=14554#M14554" target="_blank">here</a>.  As you can see, there was not much of a discernable pattern for how shield factor, level/stats, and base block rate factored into the finished product.  I am also hearing rumor now that WIS is what you need to be able to block with a shield.  Is this true?  If so it makes very little sense, from a logical or mechanics standpoint, imo.  Lastly, I don't believe the block rate being displayed is at all accurate.  In my studies, I still have not seen a single shield block in all the white  mobs I have ever fought getting to level 12, yet my blockrate has hovered between 2.5 % and 3.0%.  The only time I could see blockrates appear at all was against green mobs, and it was so sporadic that I couldn't get a large enough sample to see consistent percents from fight to fight.  Against deep grey mobs, I could see a pattern emerge, and the block rate was 1.7x better than what the stated % would have been against whites. Again, my block rate against white mobs is consistently 0%. <div></div><p> <span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by Sebastien on <span class=date_text>04-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:24 AM</span>

Ceruline
04-19-2005, 08:28 PM
<DIV>At the moment, there isn't incentive for a scout to wear anything OTHER than medium.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>While there is an avoidance boost when you shift to lighter armors, switching from medium to unarmored only gives a 5% boost.  Since avoidance is basing in the mid 20s instead of the 50s now, this really provides very little boost (The higher the base avoidance starts, the more significant a 5% increase is - since it's so low at the moment, 5% really does very little.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, if my base avoidance were back in the 50s, then a 10% boost in avoidance would be worth losing 20% mitigation.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Example:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>50% damage not avoided</DIV> <DIV>*</DIV> <DIV>80% damage not mitigate</DIV> <DIV>=<BR>40% damage not avoided or mitigated</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Remove armor, gain 10% avoidance</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>40% damage not avoided</DIV> <DIV>*</DIV> <DIV>100% damage not mitigated</DIV> <DIV>=</DIV> <DIV>40% damage not avoided or mitigated.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That is how it *SHOULD* be (Although both the avoidance and mitigation values are low for what they should be, I used em because they made the tradeoff numbers work very well)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Here is how it is</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With medium armor</DIV> <DIV>71% damage not avoided</DIV> <DIV>*</DIV> <DIV>76.3% damage not mitigated</DIV> <DIV>= 54% damage not avoided or mitigated</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With Very Light Armor</DIV> <DIV>66.8% damage not avoided</DIV> <DIV>*</DIV> <DIV>90% damage not mitigated</DIV> <DIV>= 60.12% damage not avoided or mitigated</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, at the moment it isn't much of a choice.  You use lighter armor = you take more damage (While interruptions are fewer with the higher avoidance, I view this to be offset by the greater predictability of mitigation - mitigation ALWAYS functions while you can get unlucky as an avoidance defender.  Also, aside from us Bards interruptions aren't an issue for scouts)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To add what I think needs to be done - </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In addition to a big increase in the base avoidance scouts are getting, the avoidance gained from lighter armors should more or less be designed to evenly offset the lost mitigation.  This lets Scouts make a stylistic choice on whether to go for avoidance or mitigation gear, and allows more differentiation within the class/archetype (Given that EQ2s design offers so little opportunity to differentiate yourself skillwise, it's all the more important to allow differentiation in other ways)</DIV><p>Message Edited by Ceruline on <span class=date_text>04-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:39 AM</span>

Sebastien
04-19-2005, 09:18 PM
<div></div>Well, the other way I can look at it: Avoidance_x_Mitigation for medium armor and very light armor are so similar, that scouts will not tank much better than a mage. Perhaps that is why SOE felt the need to drop parry for mages; not so much to make them worse, but to make scouts better, relative to casters? <div></div><p>Message Edited by Sebastien on <span class=date_text>04-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:28 AM</span>

Sebastien
04-19-2005, 09:50 PM
Okies, wanted to post feedback on the 04-18 patch to NPC damage. I knew exactly which mob I wanted to fight: the big bears on Oakmyst.  At level 12 they are blue double up to me, and I tried fighting them many times to complete a quest for some pants.  For three fights in a row I had the bear down to a sliver of its life, but could not defeat it.  There isn't *too* much variety in strategy for a level 12 shammy, so I think I fought as well as I could have. Once I heard about the changes to NPC damage, I knew this was the perfect mob to test. So I just fought the bear again.  Nothing about my character was different, except that during this fight I had some new pants on.  But I tried to keep my Ward up almost 100% of the time, so the difference of a bit more mitigation wouldn't have mattered.  (*nudges Devs on note of mitigationless wards*) Anyway, the battle was very dicey, and it could have gone either way if I lapsed in attention for a moment.  However, I did win, and had about 60% health left,  and enough power for one more ward and *maybe* one additional smite. I am not sure how much these NPC damage changes were meant to impact lower levels like mine, but from where I am sitting they are spot-on. However, I am also not sure if you *want* me to be able to solo a heroic mob two levels beneath me? Anyway, that is my feedback on the new mob DPS. =) <div></div>

Evadne
04-19-2005, 11:49 PM
I have to agree that I am pleased to see the combat system getting a good hard look.   True for those of us on Test it is the frontier we ask for in being here. Frontier life is often hard.  In these changes, however, I truly hope that before you finalize them you will include a spell/ability review.  Because of the changes, many spells seem to be obsolete and others inadequate.  I plan to spend the late afternoon reviewing the value of my spells now and posting my thoughts on their usefulness. ~Eva <div></div>

Ceruline
04-20-2005, 12:00 AM
I second what Evadne says.  What good, for instance, does my short term parry buff do now that parry has explicity been stated to be nonbuffable?  (I should probably check to see if it is actually doing anything... I hardly ever used it anyway, due to it's short duration)

Ceruline
04-20-2005, 12:04 AM
<P>Sebastian -</P> <P> </P> <P>The problem is that Avoidance x Mitigation is actually the incorrect way of doing the calculation</P> <P>Avoidance x Mitigation will give you the percentage of the avoided damage that was also mitigated - not terribly useful.</P> <P> </P> <P>The way to end up with actual damage received is to use (1-Avoidance)*(1-Mitigation)  (Or what percentage is actually going to hit me, and then what percentage of that will I be unable to mitigate?)</P> <P> </P> <P>Of course, I don't actually know whether that changes things between mages and scouts - My highest level mage ever is only 10, so I'm not terribly familiar with their defensive capabilities</P>

Sebastien
04-20-2005, 12:50 AM
Yes I understand what the formula should be. =) (I was just making a shortened version for typing's sake.. and what I typed and what you typed should be directly proportional anyway, I think? ) So let's call it "damage taken" = (1-avoidance%) _x_ (1-mitigation%) What we need to do, and hopefully what SOE is doing, is to compile a chart of different classes and how they relate.  For instance: (1) brawler in light vs. scout in medium; who will take more damage as of right now? (2) brawler in light vs. fighter in heavy; who will take more damage as of right now? These, to me, seem like key points of comparison, to decide how well balanced the current system is or is not.  But we'd need some real data from test players to decide.  Afterwards, we could look at things like priest in heavy v. medium v. light, keeping in mind that the light armor wearing priests are the ones that can buff AGI.  We could also look at the damage taken factor for mages. <div></div>

Grimsore
04-20-2005, 01:06 AM
Here is some general info on light armor tanks as there isnt many of us on Test for peopel to look at. I play a Bruiser,45 level. I solo and group probably equally. As far as “test server standards” I am very well equipped. My main damage ability is a master One Hundred Hand Slap, 98% percent of my other abilities are adept 1 with the other 1% appr 4. I use a Hero Crook(Not going to try and spell it) and all of my armor is white to yellow. I wear a Robe of the Evoker pretty much all the time now. It is very light armor and close to 200 less ac than the Archaic BP I carry but there is no doubt that for me the power regeneration FAR outweighs the loss of ac. My agility is 130 self buffed.Pre- combat patch my avoidance was 75% and my Mitigation 33 point something % (I think). Currently my avoidance is 52 point something % and my mitigation 23%(I)= Individual encounter (according to SOE, meant for 1-2 people)(H)= Heroic encounter (According to SOE, meant for 3-6 people)(G) = Green Con Mob (B) = Blue Con Mob (W) = White Con Mob ….you get the pictureBEFORE COMBAT PATCH (Level 45) (I)(G) - Could ignore screen, use almost no arts and win vs. several easy.(I)(B) – Could ignore screen after throwing in a couple arts at the start. Easy fight.(I)(W)(Y) – Had to play the class and use arts but was pretty much a sure win.(I)(O) – Things changed when mobs became orange. They hit me a lot more and Bruisers cannot take being hit well. If I paid attention I could win but it was dangerous and if I got some bad rolls I easily could loose.(I)(R) – Very slim chance for me to beat the lowest tier red mob. Mostly they were to be left alone, orange was tough enough.(H)(G) – Lowest tier greens and often the next tier up I could solo when I paid attention. Normally the lowest tier would be a pretty sure win and next up a challenge.(H)(B) – Select few lowest tier blue I could beat very now and then when solo. Wasn’t worth the risk. I tanked well vs. a blue mob in a group with a healer.(H)(W) – No chance to solo a white con group mob. I tanked worse than the plate class I was with but could do fine when tanking white con mobs. (Note the paladin/SK I normally play with is 2 levels and 1 level over me.)(H)(Y) – Was hard for healers to keep up with the damage I’d take which caused me to have to really pay attention to when I used mend and fear. I tanked wore than the plate classes but could sure as the main tank.(H)(0) – Would need two healers if I was going to live and it just wasn’t a good idea for me to tank. (H)(R) – Bad idea, Orange and red just hit me too much. Needed mitigation to deal with the damage and I didn’t have it.AFTER COMBAT PATCH (Level 45)(I)(G) - Could ignore screen, use almost no arts and win easy.(I)(B) – Had to use combat arts but easy fight.(I)(W)(Y) – Would require me to be careful and play to my fullest. Much more dangerous than before patch but worth doing still.(I)(O)(R) – Not going to happen. I’m getting hit almost every other swing. They are hitting for less each swing but 100, 200, after 100 ads up fast when you cant heal but once.(H)(G) – Lowest tier I can still beat when I pay attention. I am hit more often than before and end up with less power and health. Can still tank in-group fine.(H)(B) – Can’t solo, Can tank in-group ok but takes a good bit more healer mana.(H)(W) – At this point the healer is having a hard time keeping up on damage. Need 2 healers.(H)(Y) – 2 healers a must and very little chance to try this out, group fighting has become much harder and a lot of folks have been taking a break it seems.(H)(R) – Haven’t even tried.Conclusion - I seem to tank the greens about he same as before but have gotten worse vs. solo and group Cons higher than green. I can still play and I think if the game started out this way I would be fine with how I tank now post combat patch. The problem is the game didn’t start this way. It feels like after growing up on fresh eggs I’m suddenly being asked to eat powdered. Yuk! If I had started out growing up on the powdered eggs Id be fine and happy but I’m not willing to change now. After thoughtsIt must be noted that my views are only for light armor tanks. I believe the Plate class tanks have dropped from what they could handle even more than the leather classes.Greys 10 levels below me can hit me every now and then post combat patch. Before 20 could swing at me forever while I was afk and I’d never die.Over all EQ2 is a less enjoyable game at the moment and the test server day to day population has dropped do to it. That being said, I have no doubts the tweaking will continue until EQ2 is as fun, hopefully more, as it was pre-combat patch.Fleeona 45 Brusier, TestPreviously Grimsore from EQ1 Test

Shantee
04-20-2005, 01:12 AM
After playing last night from the changes, I could solo blues again, but was still getting to many interupts.  With 3 of us killing Double up mobs that was white and yellow to me.  Mobs were lvl 46 and 47 to me.  It was easier, but the lvl 47 were still difficult,  we fought 1 lvl 48 and almost didn't live.  We have a 48 Guardian, 45 Defiler and 44 Ranger.  We took on a lvl 44 named mob.  Was a difficult fight as well.  If it wasn't for my manastone, I would not have had enough power to keep healing or warding, the little good that it did do.  From a shaman's stand point.  My wards aren't helping.  They prevent 1 or 2 hits and then it's gone.  The hits hit my ward for full with out taking in any mitagaion. Where as if a tank takes the same hit its greatly(or was) reduced.  A 1000 pt hit unmitigated drops my ward, the tank would take maybe 500 of that hit.  My Heal spell heals for around 600 every 13 secs.  I can cast that particular ward every 6 secs.  Adding it up, the tank takes more damage than I can heal or ward. <div></div>

Sebastien
04-20-2005, 01:18 AM
<i>Currently my avoidance is 52 point something % and my mitigation 23%</i> Alright then, we have a data point for a Monk. On average, when you fight a white mob, you will get hit 48% of the time, dodging or deflecting the rest.  When you do get hit, you will take 77% of the mob's damage, mitigating the rest.  Therefore, your damage taken value is about 37%. In otherwords, when you are tanking a same level mob, you will take about 37% of its total DPS.  The rest will be dodged or mitigated. How does that compare with heavy-armor tanks?  Do we have any data points from them?  It would be particularly useful if we could get a heavy tank in a similar level range. <div></div>

HanktheDwarf
04-21-2005, 04:19 PM
I thought the mobs were supposed to interrupt less now.  As an SK, I rarely ever got interrupted (considering so few of my abilities are spells).  Now, just about every time I try to cast a spell it will get interrupted at least once.   That's just soloing.  I'm trying to peel my rat away from the stove so we can go do some grouping. <div></div>

Sebastien
04-21-2005, 11:13 PM
It could be possible that this Channeling skill is something new, and maybe you need to get skill ups in it? I'm a bit confused by it, because it doesn't show up anywhere in my skill list. <div></div>

HanktheDwarf
04-26-2005, 03:08 AM
So I like the stuff now.  Soloing has become pretty nice.  There seems to maybe be a problem with the scaling of down arrows, as I can take on a group of four (five if my harm touch is up) yellow con down arrows with relative ease.  Blues and whites are easy.  And oh man, are double arrows tough.  The Evol Ew Headhunter, conning white to me, took myself out in just a few heartbeats. Trying to get to a group and do more tests with up and double up mobs. <div></div>

Shunidar
04-26-2005, 07:07 AM
Agility is busted again with the update tonight.

EtoilePirate
04-26-2005, 07:36 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Shunidar wrote:<BR> Agility is busted again with the update tonight.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Actually, the "update" tonight set everything back just where it was, as if  version 2.0 of the combat changes never happened.  And, I might say, it sucks.  A lot.  (Not only that but apparently when the server came back it was missing about three minutes, so I was standing unstealthed in the middle of a field of aggro creatures that I could no longer fight, instead off sitting stealthed behind a rock, where I was when I logged.  Very weird.)</P> <P>Test channel chatter tonight was wondering whether removing the more recent patch and going back to the week-old one was intentional or accidental.  I just really, really hope that no-one's changed their mind and decided that it's better this way.</P>

Sebastien
04-27-2005, 06:59 PM
Well as of Tuesday (4/26) I can tell you that 2.0 rules are in effect for avoidance and AGI.  If some of you still see orignal numbers then you should most likely /bug it, because that does not appear to be the intent. <div></div>

Sebastien
04-27-2005, 08:02 PM
Here are the results of Judy's second avoidance study: <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=tpriv&message.id=1201" target=_blank>click here</a>. SOE, as I mentioned in closing, I *strongly* suggest that you either explain to us exactly how armor should impact avoidance, or else look at the Test population very closely, because those numbers are literally all over the map, and there does not appear to be any sort of pattern at all right now. <div></div>