Please for the love of god fix the trade skills in LU25.

[Payne3]

<DIV> <P><SPAN>Just wanted to tell the Devs Thank You for the effort on LU24 but your efforts have missed their mark.Your goal was to make trade skilling easier but in actuality it is going to take us longer and cost more for us to get through a tier. I hope LU25 will bring some rebalancing to the trade skills. Here is a list of things that got broke.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>1.You no longer break even on the cost of fuel when you sell back to the vendor.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>2.You have too few recipies to get pristine xp from thus causing you to make more and more combines causing you to burn a ridiculous amount of fuels.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>3. Any useful item we can make now needs a rare, which if we don’t harvest one must be bought.The gear and weaps my main and alts depended on can no longer be made easily.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>4. The market is now flooded with too many useless items by trade skillers hoping to recoup some of their losses while trying to level. I used to be able to sell some gear that was made but who in their right mind would buy anything that is crafted now. If I do put items up for sale it would have to be items made with a rare and no one would be willing to pay that price unless they did a gold buy online.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>5.The xp that we should be getting from combines is very weak even with the vitality.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>6. What I used to harvest got my main and an alt or two through a tier, Now that same amount doesn't my main through 2 levels.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>I’m sure other will have other things to add but basically there is too little xp too few recipies too much cost to level and the market is now flooded with junk. I started to trade skill because I wanted to be able to make decent gear and weaps for my main and alts and maybe sell a few items on my broker now I can’t make squat and it now takes longer to level. Now we need rares just to make useful items for our toons costing us more. If anything this is gonna spawn a ton of harvesting bots and force people to have to buy gold online.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>Speaking of Harvesting the way the nodes give up their raws and rares is wonderful and so are the harvesting charms the one real tedious time consuming chore to trade skilling got fixed but at too high of a price. I now have to harvest way more raws to get through a tier. </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>I’d gladly go back to the way it was but what I’d like to see is for you to keep the harvesting the way it is and return the trade skilling to the way it used to be (or modify it some how to let us make usefull items with out needing rare and give us back the xp that was lost with all those sub-combines) and repair the buy back from the vendors.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>I hope this post is read by the devs and I also hope that they decide to listen to what we the players have to say.</SPAN></P></DIV><p>Message Edited by Payne3 on <span class=date_text>06-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:38 PM</span>

[Hur]

1. yes you do, check other vendors.2. this is highly dependant on tradeskill3. highly dependant on tradeskill4. yes it is, we need an alternant release for crafted items.5. no, its fine6. the multi pulls should balance this. the real problem is the over reliance on too many tradeskill sources... it should be 2 average, not 3 average resources per recipie. (ie not roots wood and metal, but only 2 of the 3, so im only farming 2 resources)personally if im a carpenter, and i need wood and ore and pelts and roots and even the occasional gemstone, im needing too much.  that was fine when there was some interdependance, now its just a damned waste. instead stick with wood + ore drops only, and a rare need for stone drops, and carpentry is fine... roots never need to come into the picture.the same can be done for all tradeskills to cut down on what they are harvesting.<div></div>

[tass]

I dont have a problem powerleveling my sage. Alls I do is start at 1 spells and work my way up makeing 5 or 6% for each pristine spell. Ive crafted from lv 32 to 40 in a day, and make a crap load of gold selling the app4's to vendor for 32s a peice. Might be harder for armorers and weaponsmiths because I do have to hand it to ya, the stuff just sucks now, Id rather get a drop off a mob or somthing for more dmg and stats. But sage wise its the same as its always been. App4's aernt needed and are only used to level up. Only now I dont have to go through the hell of making inks, quills, and paper.<div></div>

[Ever-Befallen]

I agree, XP is just fine where its at.

[aubreyy]

<DIV>I like the changes in LU24. Dont like my particular class becuase the items i make are not worth beans, but xp  and mechanics are fine</DIV>

[Calthine]

<P>I think the XP is fine.  However:</P> <P>a) I feel that there needs to be a built-in reward for crafting besides the satisfaction of a job well done.  Adventurers get cash to grind, why shouldn't we?  Hopefully this will be corrected when the new TS writs go live.</P> <P>b) I feel that rares are far too common; there has to be a happy medium between so rare it required weeks of harvesting or lots of plat and the current state, which is bagloads every other day.  I personally am hoping for a down-tuning of rare availability.</P> <P>c) There's nothing wrong with two recipes per level.  Once you get into your non-spellmaking-subclass that's the way it's always been.  With the loss of subcombines and the alt arts, really only one level per Tier has been stripped.  </P><p>Message Edited by Calthine on <span class=date_text>06-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:07 PM</span>

[Payne3]

<DIV> <P>"b) I feel that rares are far too common; there has to be a happy medium between so rare it required weeks of harvesting or lots of plat and the current state, which is bagloads every other day.  I personally am hoping for a down-tuning of rare availability."</P> <P>Thats easy for you to say your already at lvl 70 and don't have to scratch your way through all those levels again. The only way we can make anything worth selling on the broker is with a rare, and with what they have planned with LU25 I'd change my tune cause your gonna need those rare wood to make those boxes if there ever will be a demand for them.</P> <P>I have seen a very small improvement in rare drops if anyone is getting bagloads then they need to get out more (I have yet to fill one 8 slot bag with any harvesting session I do)</P></DIV>

[aubreyy]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>c) There's nothing wrong with two recipes per level.  Once you get into your non-spellmaking-subclass that's the way it's always been.  With the loss of subcombines and the alt arts, really only one level per Tier has been stripped.  </P> <P>Message Edited by Calthine on <SPAN class=date_text>06-28-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:07 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Yeah, perhaps I only got 3 new weapon recipes before, but by the time id made all the subcombines to get started making them, i had already worked a great deal into the level. After you get discovery xp for these items, the xp gets really bad, and the speed at which you can make the combine is a lot slower. <BR>

[Calthine]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Payne3 wrote:<BR> <DIV> <P>"b) I feel that rares are far too common; there has to be a happy medium between so rare it required weeks of harvesting or lots of plat and the current state, which is bagloads every other day.  I personally am hoping for a down-tuning of rare availability."</P> <P>Thats easy for you to say your already at lvl 70 and don't have to scratch your way through all those levels again. The only way we can make anything worth selling on the broker is with a rare, and with what they have planned with LU25 I'd change my tune cause your gonna need those rare wood to make those boxes if there ever will be a demand for them.</P> <P>I have seen a very small improvement in rare drops if anyone is getting bagloads then they need to get out more (I have yet to fill one 8 slot bag with any harvesting session I do)</P></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Well first, I have several crafters.  Second, I did a lot of harvesting pre- and post-LU 24, and there is deifnately an increase.  Now, it might be attached to the harvesting level vs trivial level equasion.  </P> <P>And, btw, I leveled up Kiana back when getting one rare a month was exceptionally lucky.  The major difference at the moment was my first point:  there are no built-in rewards in tradeskills.  That's *gotta* change.  That would aleiviate that pain.  And I do feel it; I had to loan my newest crafter money.  </P>

[Besual]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Calthine wrote:<div></div><p>Well first, I have several crafters.  Second, I did a lot of harvesting pre- and post-LU 24, and there is deifnately an increase.  Now, it might be attached to the harvesting level vs trivial level equasion.  </p> <p>And, btw, I leveled up Kiana back when getting one rare a month was exceptionally lucky.  The major difference at the moment was my first point:  there are no built-in rewards in tradeskills.  That's *gotta* change.  That would aleiviate that pain.  And I do feel it; I had to loan my newest crafter money.  </p><hr></blockquote>Pre-LU24 rare rafted items had very good stats and the normal crafted items were ok. Now the normal crafted stuff is just there to XP and then sell to a NPC. The stats of rare crafted items are now ok. It seems that crafted items moved done one step: from ok stats to vendor trash (common), from very good stats to ok stats (rare or better uncommon). All we need now is a new level of rare (I mean as rare as you said) with very good stats. Sadly SOE decided to remove T5 fabled crafting insteed of extending it to the other tiers.To the XP gain: I leveled a alchi from level 30 to 35 and a jeweler from 13 to 30 after LU-24. As long as you have vita the XP isn't that bad. But when you start to run out of vita it really slows down. My jeweler got about 2-2.5% per app4 at level 29 (doing level 29 CAs), I thought my T3  ressources (enough for 50 combines) would be enough to hit level 31 but I had to resuply just to hit level 30. Scholars get many new items each level and this way a gut chunk of discovery XP. Non-scholar-classes will have it even harder to level up.</div><p>Message Edited by Besual on <span class=date_text>06-29-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:25 AM</span>

[Tomanak]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Calthine wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>  The major difference at the moment was my first point:  there are no built-in rewards in tradeskills.  That's *gotta* change.  That would aleiviate that pain.  And I do feel it; I had to loan my newest crafter money.  </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>At the present time there are NO real rewards for being a crafter unless you are a provisioner who makes food and drinks or a woodworker who can make harvesting tools and totems for personal use. I never made any of my crafters to make money so the fact that very little sells (for me) is not a big issue. What is to me the bigger issue is my new alts all have dropped jewelry from the broker or quests and to me that is sad. At least my newest alt is a scout class so I can at least make his adept IIIs.

[Obadiah]

<DIV>Vitality is your friend. Take a breather. :smileywink:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>51 Carpenter now. <STRONG>Two</STRONG> new recipes per level. Knocked out the last 75% of level 50 last night in about 45 minutes. And I tested clean for performance (XP) enhancing drugs. :smileywink: I cannot imagine XP getting much faster.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To the OP:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. Is being addressed. Hopefully very soon, and not like "Yeah, we're going to add T6 Carpenter Rares...." but we'll see. :smileyvery-happy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2. See #4.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3. Is an opinion, and one I don't share. My 30-something Defiler is perfectly content using crafted common armor and weapons as they are better than the treasured drops. Lots o' Wis now, as opposed to before with random stats. I do wish all the armor sets were complete at lower tiers though, or that they would state whether the omissions are intentional. My Troub would wear a full set of Melodic Feyiron too if it existed. :smileymad:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4. I have<STRONG> very</STRONG> little competition in T5 & T6 with my two active crafters. Not sure about lower tiers. But since I basically only have to make one of everything with my Tailor at 53 in order to level because it's so fast, I don't make a ton of products.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>5. See #4.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>6. I can't comment. I've been harvesting too much lately. I may have a problem. Since my Carp only gets two common recipes per level, I've been trying to help by gathering all the rares needed for each of his (and the Tailor's) advanced recipes each level. Worked out nicely so far.</DIV>

[Rast]

I disagree Cathline, but that is because I think the low end content is now geared for the mastercrafted gear is meant to be the low end now for encounters, instead of the handcrafted.  And in order for that to be the case, there has to be more of it to supply the anticipated (but not really realized) demand, but not enough to level off of it either.

[masakre]

<DIV>sorry, i dont agree and like things the way they are. the only thing I would like to see is them fix the crappy things weaponsmiths can make. I don't play my weaponsmith any more because the crappy weapons they can make, rare or non, are far to expensive when you can buy a legendary item off the broker for 1/10th the price, and 10 times the stat/damage.</DIV>

[Val529]

<DIV>Alot of this depends on the class.  Scholars and thier subclasses have it relitivly easy.  They are guaranteed at least 6 new recipes per lvl.  Many of the others have it much much harder.  As a woodworker there are several levels where you get ONE new recipe (two if you count the imbued version).  That means ALOT of grinding the same ole recipe just to lvl.  I cant imagine the tedium when my woodworker manages to get higher lvl.</DIV> <DIV>A few new recipes would definitly be welcome.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Blambil]

<div><blockquote><hr>Tomanak wrote:<div></div>At the present time there are NO real rewards for being a crafter unless you are a provisioner who makes food and drinks or a woodworker who can make harvesting tools and totems for personal use. I never made any of my crafters to make money so the fact that very little sells (for me) is not a big issue....<hr></blockquote>There are piles of Provisioners who would argue with you right now. Too many new ones dumping stuff on the market at or below cost to really make any money. The only haven is those of us already 70, and that will come to an end very soon as well.</div>

[Obadiah]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Val529 wrote:<BR> <DIV>Alot of this depends on the class.  Scholars and thier subclasses have it relitivly easy.  They are guaranteed at least 6 new recipes per lvl.  Many of the others have it much much harder.  As a woodworker there are several levels where you get ONE new recipe (two if you count the imbued version).  That means ALOT of grinding the same ole recipe just to lvl.  I cant imagine the tedium when my woodworker manages to get higher lvl.</DIV> <DIV>A few new recipes would definitly be welcome.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Lol. I guess I have to agree there. I just peeked, and I get 19 normal recipes in all of tier 7. So . . . the equivalent of what, 1.5 levels for a Sage? :smileyvery-happy:

[crumpledmonkey]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Calthine wrote:<BR> <P>I think the XP is fine.  However:</P> <P>a) I feel that there needs to be a built-in reward for crafting besides the satisfaction of a job well done.  Adventurers get cash to grind, why shouldn't we?  Hopefully this will be corrected when the new TS writs go live.</P> <P>b) I feel that rares are far too common; there has to be a happy medium between so rare it required weeks of harvesting or lots of plat and the current state, which is bagloads every other day.  I personally am hoping for a down-tuning of rare availability.</P> <P>c) There's nothing wrong with two recipes per level.  Once you get into your non-spellmaking-subclass that's the way it's always been.  With the loss of subcombines and the alt arts, really only one level per Tier has been stripped.  </P> <P>Message Edited by Calthine on <SPAN class=date_text>06-28-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:07 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>i have to dissagree with #3 if u used all your sub combine recipies as a weaponsmith and made just  1 time pristine u made atleast 2.5 lvls from the subs alone.i hade about 18 subs on the forge,10 on the sewing table,5 on the wood table,7 on the alchy table,and 5 on jewler table.that is 45 pristine discoverys and at about 6% that is 2.7 lvls.that would mean that i was almost 3 lvls into a teir before i even made 1 weapon.most of the time i was 5 lvls into a teir before i made one because i would always make all my subs first then i was done for that teir.

[Obadiah]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> crumpledmonkeynuts wrote:<BR> <BR><BR>i have to dissagree with #3 if u used all your sub combine recipies as a weaponsmith and made just  1 time pristine u made atleast 2.5 lvls from the subs alone.i hade about 18 subs on the forge,10 on the sewing table,5 on the wood table,7 on the alchy table,and 5 on jewler table.that is 45 pristine discoverys and at about 6% that is 2.7 lvls.that would mean that i was almost 3 lvls into a teir before i even made 1 weapon.most of the time i was 5 lvls into a teir before i made one because i would always make all my subs first then i was done for that teir.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Depends when you crafted. I made it into level 41 doing all the subs (yes, every book). Then I made enough subs to make 5 of every weapon from 41 through 45. (Something like 24 weapons * 3 subs each * 5..... 360 and some extras from losing count) I pushed progress on them all, but never ever stopped them early. So they were all pristine or one step under.</P> <P>I ran out of those subs and had to make more just to reach 44. Discovery XP never got me further than 12% in the upper 40s. And we LIKED it. :smileymad:</P> <P>Then the 50s came along and were cake.</P>

[Tomanak]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Blambil wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tomanak wrote:<BR> At the present time there are NO real rewards for being a crafter unless you are a provisioner who makes food and drinks or a woodworker who can make harvesting tools and totems for personal use. I never made any of my crafters to make money so the fact that very little sells (for me) is not a big issue....<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>There are piles of Provisioners who would argue with you right now. Too many new ones dumping stuff on the market at or below cost to really make any money. The only haven is those of us already 70, and that will come to an end very soon as well.<BR><BR><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>My point was that even if unable to sell a single piece of food or drink a provisioner can still make food or drink for their own use whereas a weaponsmith for example wouldnt dream of using a non rare weapon they made as the stats simply dont compare with what drops. The only 2 crafters types in our guild with ANY real demand for their output are provisioners and woodworkers with the exception of the occasional adept III.

[crumpledmonkey]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Obadiah wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> crumpledmonkeynuts wrote:<BR> <BR><BR>i have to dissagree with #3 if u used all your sub combine recipies as a weaponsmith and made just  1 time pristine u made atleast 2.5 lvls from the subs alone.i hade about 18 subs on the forge,10 on the sewing table,5 on the wood table,7 on the alchy table,and 5 on jewler table.that is 45 pristine discoverys and at about 6% that is 2.7 lvls.that would mean that i was almost 3 lvls into a teir before i even made 1 weapon.most of the time i was 5 lvls into a teir before i made one because i would always make all my subs first then i was done for that teir.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Depends when you crafted. I made it into level 41 doing all the subs (yes, every book). Then I made enough subs to make 5 of every weapon from 41 through 45. (Something like 24 weapons * 3 subs each * 5..... 360 and some extras from losing count) I pushed progress on them all, but never ever stopped them early. So they were all pristine or one step under.</P> <P>I ran out of those subs and had to make more just to reach 44. Discovery XP never got me further than 12% in the upper 40s. And we LIKED it. :smileymad:</P> <P>Then the 50s came along and were cake.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>i crafted my weaponsmth to lvl64 then pvp server came out and have not crafted one thing since then on him.addicted to pvp a much more addictive sub drug of evercrack.

[HazlenutElf]

<DIV>To the OP I’m wondering, you mention making gear and wepons, are you leveling up an armorer and a weponsmith?  Outfitters seem to me the hardest to level and an armorer and a weponsmith both would be pure misery IMO. Both of these professions require 3-5 ore for each and every recipie, and even Calthine admits there is a shortage of ore now that ore nodes are also dropping loam.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Are rares too common or too rare? since LU24 they do seem to drop more often if you are harvesting in a lower level area with a high level toon. Are they dropping too much? Well to make armor, jewelry or wepons that have both skills and hitpoint/power increases you HAVE to use a RARE.  Back before LU13 when finidng one rare a month was good luck the mobs and gear were also balanced so that full handcrafted gear was playable, this is not the case anymore. I leveled my cleric to 40 withtout ever having any legendary gear and only had one adept 3. All my other spells were adept 1 or app4, and that was fine because you could play like that, the mobs were balanced for it.  When I got to level 40 I picked a couple pieces of legenday gear( the cap was 50 then so I knew I was gonna use it for a while. I got a ruby imbued ring, cedar buckler and club, and ebon gloves (for the wis bonus) and I was able to get two of my heals to adept 3. The rest of my gear was fulginate. And actually I played with some pieces of feyiron while I waited for hubby to level up his armorer and complete the set. With LU 13 rares drops were increased, but so was the need for it.  After LU 13 blue and green mobs I could solo in Everfrost the day before were now killing me, because the game and mobs and been rebalanced. But since Ebon had droped from 3 plat to 1 plat I got ebon chest and pants to hold me over till I could get my cobalt. Now that handcrafted gear has been nerfed even more, I cant imagine using it beyond level 20. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for the XP and leveling ease or difficulty, which tradskill craft has a lot to do wiht this, I’m currently leveling up an Alchemist and its become beyond easy. Scholar classes always had it easier because they get so many recipes each level, but now that there’s no ink its even easier. And with LU 24 all the recipes got reset, so im able to remake all my recipes for the bonus xp all over again. As for the non scholar classes, the loss of the sub-combines is more then just losing one level of recipes. Making one of each of the subs usually got you 2 levels or more. Maybe someone can count all the subs there were in the alternate books and see how many recipes were taken away.  Yes I know that the levels are smaller now, and it doesn’t take 1000 subcombines for a level, but carbonite didn’t cost 15s-1g per cluster back then either. If one level of armor takes 100 combines, and each combine takes 3 ore, 3 pelt and 3 root, that would be 300 ore, 300 pelts and 300 roots for each level.   Even with harvesting tools and multiple pulls that  would be a lot of raws! and expensive ones at that!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have to wonder...... what if the devs had to give up thier Relic and Fabled gear for a month and use only handcrafted if we would see any changes??<BR></DIV>

[Wrapye]

I'm in process now of leveling my tailor, who is presently level 50.  I'm going through incredible amounts of roots and pelts in order to gain levels.  I already have a 70 woodworker and 70 provisioner, and they were easier (after a while with the woodworker) to level.  The tailor combines require so many of a resource that even having 300 pelts and 300 roots on me will not last a level.<div></div>

[Rast]

<P>Currently at 58, I can use around 400 ore, 200 roots and 200 pelts in a single level.  For every lvl 50-59 recipe for an armorer uses 6 ore, 3 pelts and 3 roots.  Doesn't matter if it is a bp, a shield, platemail or chain.  Everything uses that breakdown.</P>

[Timesquare]

<DIV><FONT color=#99ff33>tradeskill task come back please</FONT> :smileysad:</DIV>

[Maroger]

<P>To all those Level 70 Tradeskillers that think this is great. I have news for you. You are at the top of the food chain and had it through all the good times of tradeskilling.</P> <P>Here at the bottome of the food chain I don't see all that many rare dropping -- unless it is a totally worthless one like Silver Cluster. I think when a level 70 harvests in a low level zone they automatically have better luck than one who is at zone level.</P> <P>I find XP a lot slower even <FONT color=#99ff00>WITH </FONT>Vitality. I levelled a lot faster <FONT color=#ffff00>BEFORE LU 24. </FONT>It has been a grind since!!</P> <P>I think the developers need to listen<FONT color=#ff3300> LESS</FONT> to the Level 70's and more to those at the bottom of the ladder. We have it a lot harder now, esp. for making money, than the current Level 70's had it when they were at the bottom!</P> <P> </P>

[Meniphisto]

<blockquote><hr>Maroger wrote:<div></div> <p>To all those Level 70 Tradeskillers that think this is great. I have news for you. You are at the top of the food chain and had it through all the good times of tradeskilling.</p><hr></blockquote> We had the good times? Well I suppose you could say that now, but some of us that started TSing back in "the day" (beginning of the game), and tradeskilling is 100x easier then it has been. I remember when you had a max of 3 harvesting tries per node. If you failed to harvest an item, tough luck, you only get 2 more shots. Also, the so-called "rares" are common compaired to what they use to be. I can recall harvesting over 1000 nodes of gems just to get one ruby. I challenge you to harvest that much without getting 1 rare. XP is slow now? Can you imagine how it was back when there was no-such thing as vitality? Or how about when to make one item you had to rely on several different crafters. Some people got lucky and found a friend that could trade combines, some people had to make alts just to get them. Granted, money making has always been a bit hard for some crafters. But the way this game is going, money is in adventuring, not crafting. Sure, my opinion may be bias cause I'm a woodworker and can sell totems, tools, and some weapons. But hey! Thats life. This may sound mean, but if you want to complain about how hard something is, don't wait until its been simplified to do it.<div></div>

[Ziffna]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Meniphisto wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Maroger wrote:<BR> <P>To all those Level 70 Tradeskillers that think this is great. I have news for you. You are at the top of the food chain and had it through all the good times of tradeskilling.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>We had the good times? Well I suppose you could say that now, but some of us that started TSing back in "the day" (beginning of the game), and tradeskilling is 100x easier then it has been.<BR><BR>I remember when you had a max of 3 harvesting tries per node. If you failed to harvest an item, tough luck, you only get 2 more shots. Also, the so-called "rares" are common compaired to what they use to be. I can recall harvesting over 1000 nodes of gems just to get one ruby. I challenge you to harvest that much without getting 1 rare.<BR><BR>XP is slow now? Can you imagine how it was back when there was no-such thing as vitality? Or how about when to make one item you had to rely on several different crafters. Some people got lucky and found a friend that could trade combines, some people had to make alts just to get them.<BR><BR>Granted, money making has always been a bit hard for some crafters. But the way this game is going, money is in adventuring, not crafting. Sure, my opinion may be bias cause I'm a woodworker and can sell totems, tools, and some weapons. But hey! Thats life.<BR><BR>This may sound mean, but if you want to complain about how hard something is, don't wait until its been simplified to do it.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>too late to look up ancient posts but i do recall one of the devs stating about the time they added the vitality indicator to the UI that it wasn't a new thing and had been in the game since launch the only thing that was new was that now they were making the knowlage of it public.  I even recall a player back in the single digit LU's mentioning that it seemed to him that he leveled faster if he took a day off or two but after a few hours of hard grinding he would slow back down to normal leveling speed.  This is at least some evidence to support the developers claims back then that vitality has always been there.</DIV>

[Raveller]

<div><blockquote><hr>HazlenutElf wrote:<div>... </div> <div> </div> <div>Are rares too common or too rare? since LU24 they do seem to drop more often if you are harvesting in a lower level area with a high level toon. Are they dropping too much? Well to make armor, jewelry or wepons that have both skills and hitpoint/power increases you HAVE to use a RARE.  Back before LU13 when finidng one rare a month was good luck the mobs and gear were also balanced so that full handcrafted gear was playable, this is not the case anymore. I leveled my cleric to 40 withtout ever having any legendary gear and only had one adept 3. All my other spells were adept 1 or app4, and that was fine because you could play like that, the mobs were balanced for it.  When I got to level 40 I picked a couple pieces of legenday gear( the cap was 50 then so I knew I was gonna use it for a while. I got a ruby imbued ring, cedar buckler and club, and ebon gloves (for the wis bonus) and I was able to get two of my heals to adept 3. The rest of my gear was fulginate. And actually I played with some pieces of feyiron while I waited for hubby to level up his armorer and complete the set. With LU 13 rares drops were increased, but so was the need for it.  After LU 13 blue and green mobs I could solo in Everfrost the day before were now killing me, because the game and mobs and been rebalanced. But since Ebon had droped from 3 plat to 1 plat I got ebon chest and pants to hold me over till I could get my cobalt. Now that handcrafted gear has been nerfed even more, I cant imagine using it beyond level 20. </div> <div> </div> <font color="#ff6600">Precisely. With the changes to itemization, equipped gear is pretty much exclusively about rares. Which means there needs to be many, many more rare raws entering the system.</font> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div>I have to wonder...... what if the devs had to give up thier Relic and Fabled gear for a month and use only handcrafted if we would see any changes??<font color="#ff6600">Never gonna happen. There's no way the devs would ever equip their characters in common handcrafted crap. Even we don't want to equip our characters in common handcrafted crap.</font></div><hr></blockquote></div>

[Jooneau]

I disagree with almost all of the OP's bullet points except #2 for some classes.There is a gross disparity between the number of new recipes per level that some classes (e.g., Carpenters) get compared to others (e.g., Sages). They need to add new recipes to give these classes as many opportunities for first-time pristine experience as the others get. That would be a step in the right direction towards addressing one of the thematic issues that the OP had about tradeskills which was tradeskill XP being a terrible grind.Re: the comment about nobody, not even developers, using handcrafted -- Actually, a developer recently made a post in the Troubador forums saying that they balance solo encounters for Troubadors using handcrafted gear and Apprentice 3 spells. I don't know anybody who actually enjoys wearing crap gear, using crap spells, and killing one-down solo encounters for absolutely awful experience and loot. They really need to (ahem) re-evaluate their testing methodology.<p>Message Edited by Jooneau on <span class=date_text>07-03-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:55 AM</span>

[Obadiah]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Maroger wrote:</P> <P><FONT face=Arial size=2>We had the good times? Well I suppose you could say that now, but some of us that started TSing back in "the day" (beginning of the game), and tradeskilling is 100x easier then it has been.</FONT></P> <DIV><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT color=#ffff00>I<SPAN class=843344113-03072006> started back in said day, then quit and restarted the following March when my current guild formed there. It was brutal in the very very beginning, especially when the Scholar I had teamed up with in t2 went Sage instead of Alchemist. Not so bad after the "Independance from Evil Alchemists" change. </SPAN><BR></FONT><BR>I remember when you had a max of 3 harvesting tries per node. If you failed to harvest an item, tough luck, you only get 2 more shots. Also, the so-called "rares" are common compaired to what they use to be. I can recall harvesting over 1000 nodes of gems just to get one ruby. I challenge you to harvest that much without getting 1 rare.<BR></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#ffff00 size=2><SPAN class=843344113-03072006>Ugh! Got that right. I wanted to kill that little dwarf for demanding 100 wood and 100 ore. That was like, 60-70 nodes worth. Now it's what, 20 of each? Which is maybe 2-3 nodes. Grrrrrr. And waiting until ebon prices fell under 4PP so I could grab one for the Bone Bladed Claymore. Uh-huh. Sure is rough now. I havested all the raws needed to level my crafter to 50 well before DoF. In doing so I never harvested a steel cluster, a feysteel cluster, or an ebon cluster. </SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT></DIV> <DIV><BR><FONT size=+0><SPAN class=843344113-03072006><FONT face=Arial color=#ffff00 size=2>Pretty sure Ziffnab is right about the vitality. Nonetheless, between the harvesting changes and the no-sub changes, leveling a crafter is a zillion times easier/faster today than it used to be. And this is from a Carpenter. Did I mention in each of the last 3 levels I got TWO WHOLE RECIPES!?!?!? Oh look at me! I can make stool now! My Weaponsmith was in the 30s when they added imbues. How giddy would I have been if had received the imbue recipes at the same level as the weapon? Nooooo, we had to grind through the whole tier before making anything that could be sold. Making an even-con recipe in your upper 40s barely moved the blue-bar on the XP bar. We had to make hundreds of pieces of crap and had no XP potions to speed it along. That's the way it was and we LIKED it.</FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT color=#ffff00>All that being said, it seems like there are lots of recipes still missing for lower tiers. Recipes that would sell too, like tranquil tailored armor pieces that should be at level 25. And the most of the melodic feyiron pieces. I have seen no word about whether this is intentional or not. If it is, it stinks. If it's not, and they fix it, it would amount to quite a few new recipes in the lower tiers of armorsmiths and tailors.</FONT><BR>

[Maroger]

<P>I do ineed remember the "bad old days" as the level 70's are calling it -- but let me point out the following:</P> <P>1. If you were a dedicated TSer you actually levelled faster than now -- yes those WORTS were a PITA but you still got good XP off them for a few levels -- same is true with all the component you made - now you have to make the XP from finished combines -- and if you are in a TS that gets just a few new recipes a level -- that really sucks.  Not too many pristines there -- so you end up grinding more.</P> <P>2. More pulls for Harvest -- sorry I preferred the old harvesting. What happens now is sure you get multiples pulls - but your recipes are using more raws than before so you actually have to spend more time harvesting than you used to it. Recipes consuming raws at a greater rate and some raws seemed to be used by every TS ( I am thinking of roots here) whereas other seem to be used hardly at all - can you say Silver Cluster.</P> <P>3. Tradeskills are more expensive now and you earn less money. The expense is due to the highly inflated use of fuels. Even in the "bad old days" you never used as many fuels for a final as you use now. Remember those subcombines took usually 1 fuel -- now you are using maybe 14 fuels. That adds up. Also in those few cases where you have a 2nd step for an Imbue -- you used to have to only use 1 fuel on the imbue -- now you are using maybe 12+. That alone had raised the cost.</P> <P>4. You can't make money anymore at all and<FONT color=#99ff00> BOOK COST MONEY. </FONT>You used to make a profit selling back to a vendor. In some cases you <FONT color=#99ff00>DON"T EVEN MAKE THE COST OF FUEL. </FONT>Let me give an example my jeweler spens 6s72c to make a level 20s APP IV spell - I get that back when I sell the App IV but I only get 5s72c back when I sell a jewelry piece, although I use the same fuel.</P> <P>5. Rares are more plentiful -- depends on what you think of as Rare. Let's see that Sparkling/glowing/glittering rocks/teeth/flower etc. are frequent pops but then they always were. Rare (outside of imbue material) are really in 2 categories -- the highley desired and the less wanted. The less wanted pop reasonably frequently -- example -- you can pul 2-3 Silver CLusters to 1 Rough Coral and at least on my server people are trying to give silver clusters away as no one wants them as there are really no useful recipes for them.</P> <P>6. Stats on a lot of items were nerfed rendering them unsellable except to a vendor. In the "Bad Old Days" these had good stats and were sellable.</P> <P>I could go on, but my point is the Level 70's are blowing smoke if they think that TS today is better -- sure it is easier, but usally easier does <FONT color=#66ff00>NOT MEAN BETTER</FONT>.</P> <P><FONT color=#99ff00></FONT> </P> <P> </P>

[Obadiah]

<DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=015311616-03072006>Arg. </SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=015311616-03072006></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=015311616-03072006>1. I would disagree, and what does "dedicated" have to do with it? I hated the 40s. I thought "I can't imagine how slow this is going to be when that expansion comes out. 50-60? No freaking way!" DoF brought XP changes that made it much faster. So the 50s seemed a lot faster than the 40s. Still, my "very few new recipes per level" crafter (Carpenter) has gone from 44 to almost 53 since the change. Not record pace or anything, but it has never felt remotely like a grind and it would have been faster if I hadn't been out of town so much and spent other evenings online Berserking. Sure, I had to vendor a few items. Had to do the same a lot as a weaponsmith in the "Bad Old Days". Of course, in those days any Schmoe could have set a macro program up and just turned out WORTs for a whole tier of levels and sold them all back to an NPC for profit.</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=015311616-03072006></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2>2. <SPAN class=015311616-03072006>Ore seems to be the sticking point for me, at least in t6. Other than that I've got enough harvests for a few levels of Tailor and a few levels of Carpentry. I've got more roots than I can shake a stick at. The spots with ore nodes though are always well-populated with harvesters. Anyway, I'd rather use more raws and spend more time harvesting - especially given the increased rare chances - than spend more time at the forge making bars. /shrug  Personal choice on this one, I suppose. No right or wrong answer. But extra raws per node . . .  reduced harvest time . . . fewer failures . . . I guarantee I don't spend more time harvesting now than I used to.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN class=015311616-03072006></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN class=015311616-03072006>3&4. IMO they only earn you less money if you earned money by doing the currently missing tradeskill writs and workshop tasks or selling back to a vendor, and are now trying to earn money by selling to a vendor. I've made enough since LU24 selling Tailor and Carpenter products that I think this statement is absurd. And I haven't really been "targeting" my crafting. Pretty much just making items to XP on and throwing them up for sale. And from what I've seen and read I'm certainly not the only one. That is wierd about the inconsistent sell-back though. Worthy of a /bug I'd say.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN class=015311616-03072006><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN class=015311616-03072006></SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN class=015311616-03072006>5. Even given the paucity of ore nodes in t6, I still have gathered enough cobalt to make 4 of the 6 level 53 recipes I'll soon get. This is just from gathering to meet my indium needs. In fact because of the crowding aroud ore nodes at the moment, I recently PURCHASED a large quantity of indium. So really all this cobalt is from just a PORTION of the indium I've needed. Couple of Alkali Loams in there too, which is nice since when I tire of crafting my Carpenter is a 54 Swashbuckler. I don't see how it can really be argued that rares in general are not more plentiful. To some extent they are more frequent not only because the drop rate has changed since the "Bad Old Days" but because you are harvesting more. Instead of 3-4 pristine combines with that one raw, you need 3-4 of the primary ingredient raws. </SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN class=015311616-03072006></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN class=015311616-03072006>6. Some items have better stats, some prettty comparable stats, and some are worse. Some new items were introduced that are more desirable than the old items too. All in all most products I'm happier with. Only thing that really stinks is that the best (IMO) Armor/Tailor sets are incomplete in lower tiers, which is looking more and more like it was intentional. Boo, hiss. </SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN class=015311616-03072006></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN class=015311616-03072006>There's really no way to win the pre/post LU24 argument, I suppose. If you think it feels longer to level now, you're going to keep thinking that. No way to gather the requisite empirical data to prove that one way or the other. If you think it's more expensive now and has no payout, you'll probably keep thinking that despite experiments like <A href="http://leiela.blogspot.com/" target=_blank>http://leiela.blogspot.com/</A> that seem to be demonstrating a lot of fruits for crafters' labor. I can't really tell how much it costs because I'm so rich from selling post-LU crafted items that I don't notice dropping 5G for book here or there. :smileytongue: If you think rares are harder to find now, you'll probably keep thinking that too. I find rares - and no, I don't mean lambent imbue items - every time I'm out in t6 at the moment. That seems pretty easy/frequent compared to the old days. If you think all the crafted items are junk, you'll probably keep thinking that too. I haven't seen a direct comparison of EVERY item (which would be a fascinating spreadsheet, IMO) but most that I've seen are comparable. </SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN class=015311616-03072006></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN class=015311616-03072006>I would hope that they put in the remaining "missing" recipes in lower tiers and bring back writs/workshop tasks, but other than that I obviously like the changes, as does my "pocketbook". And I have no level 70 crafters. All in all I'd say Tradeskills are more fun now, which IS better.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV></DIV>

[GCT]

<P><SPAN>Well, when I found EQ2 a few months ago, I thought I'd be staying with it for a long time. I've been looking for a game to stay with, I had thought it was WoW, but then the writing hit the wall that the game is being made only for raiders.<BR><BR>Crafting in EQ2 drew me in unlike any other game before it. I loved the crafting in UO, but I did more adventuring than crafting there.<BR><BR>Well... I'm sorry to say that I'm looking up new games to play now, even considering going back to some of my old ones. LU24 ruined the aspect of EQ2 that I loved, ruined it in a way that makes it stressful instead of stress-relieving.</SPAN></P> <P>Harvesting is no fun.  Making items that nobody wants and selling them at a loss is no fun.</P>

[Despak]

Personally I would like to see a reduction in Adept 1 drops (maybe as much as 50%). Crafting was supposed to be a viable way of playing but with the drop rates in the game App IV's spells etc are just some crap that sells to the nearest vendor.(Please, before you go on about crafters screwing adventurers; I hate crafting and the only reason I am doing any is for the Heritage Quests.)Weapons and Armour; I can't see what can be done with these, other than to raise <b>some</b> of the stats. Perhaps +1 or +2 to <b>one</b> stat on mastercrafted. Or a slight (+2 to +4) increase to damage rating and AR.There should be some kind of balance between crafting and adventuring with the two being able to support each other.Currently crafters craft, and adventurers can pretty much ignore them. The bears and slugs still drop chests of spells etc from out of some mystical dimensional pocket they carry round with the them.In fact I would even go so far as to request a change to the whole loot mechanics of the game. How does a bear carry round some great huge chest with him? IMO the bear should drop skins, with a chance or rare pelts of the appropriate tier (bit more realistsic), slugs could drop more coin and prescious stones. Things like that. Intelligent and humanoid mobs should be the ones to drop weapons and armour and spells etc.Any way I have rambled on enough and I'm sure a few folk will be frothing at the mouth at what I typed so far, so I'll end if here!

[Payne3]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Despak wrote:<BR><BR>In fact I would even go so far as to request a change to the whole loot mechanics of the game. How does a bear carry round some great huge chest with him? IMO the bear should drop skins, with a chance or rare pelts of the appropriate tier (bit more realistsic), slugs could drop more coin and prescious stones. Things like that. Intelligent and humanoid mobs should be the ones to drop weapons and armour and spells etc.<BR><BR>Any way I have rambled on enough and I'm sure a few folk will be frothing at the mouth at what I typed so far, so I'll end if here!<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>If they did that you might as well take a number to wait in line so you can get a camp that has mobs that drop decent loot. Also get used to having your camp raided by plat farmers so they can steal your mobs (like some of them do already). These odd loot drops are the only way some of us players that like to actually play alone (and there are a lot of us out there) can get any worth while loot. Plus if the drops are plentiful there won't be as much price gouging on the brokers.

[Despak]

If that were the case Payne3; why are there always complaints about having to kill Bears etc?Also there are that many "intelligent" type mobs out there that are rarely, if ever, hunted by players that makes your comments even less valid.Currently players always choose the course of least resistance vs. reward. This would make some of these mobs more attractive to all people.

[Madmoon]

<P>Wrong, Hurk.</P> <P>1)  You should not check other vendors, adding yet MORE tedious steps.  The tradeskill instance vendor should buy back at cost; if he/she is not, it should be fixed.</P> <P>2)  So what?  It needs to be fixed.  My Alchy has no major issue, as each level he gets 6 classes worth of combat arts to manufacture.  Plus the occasional potion or poison.  My Tailor, on the other hand, just got level 26 and has four (five?) hexdolls to make.  Each requiring a semi-rare sparkling.  After dinging each pristine, he was about 25% through the level, and has to grind the rest of the way, either churning out hex-dolls of his level (and there's no buy-back-break-even with the cost of purchasing the semi-rare!) or working on earlier, less experience rewarding levels.</P> <P>3)  Again, so what?  It needs to be fixed.  Armorers and weaponsmiths, <EM>at least</EM>, are in a very bad position.  Maybe for Sages it's all hunky-dory, but that doesn't mean it isn't broke.  Saying it's highly dependant on class is no excuse.</P> <P>4)  I like that alternate release idea.  Dunno what that might be, mind.  Bring back tradeskill writs?  Selling to the right faction (daggers to the mages, chain to the scouts, shields to the fighter guild, etc.) increases faction?</P> <P>5)  Experience is not fine if you have to grind to get out of a level.  When I leave the crafthall, I don't grind, I adventure.  I certainly don't want to grind here, and again, having to make recipes from previous levels just to gain experience means something is wrong.  LU24 took away all those necessary WORT grinds, replacing it with finished product grinds, and that is not all that much of an improvement.</P> <P>6)  This is just plain wrong.  Multi-pulls don't help at all, or only in the sense it would be much, much worse without them.  For whatever reason, the resource usuage is WAY out of whack.  I used to fill my bags once and be done for a tier, with maybe one more trip out at the very end to pick up a few roots, or gems, or whatever.  I have been out four times, so far, and am only 47th, and see another trip, maybe two, coming.</P> <P>I Like Despak's idea, in a way.  "In fact I would even go so far as to request a change to the whole loot mechanics of the game. How does a bear carry round some great huge chest with him? IMO the bear should drop skins, with a chance or rare pelts of the appropriate tier (bit more realistsic), slugs could drop more coin and prescious stones. Things like that. Intelligent and humanoid mobs should be the ones to drop weapons and armour and spells etc."  Now, I'm an adventurer first, and a TSer second.  But with the (comparative) ease of crafting now, what if we had to turn items like skins and parchments over to TSers to craft into gear?  Problem with that is that you can more or less keep up with the rabid players now, at least within your level.  We casual players would really be behind the eight-ball if we had to find a rare, and find a crafter and spend time getting all that together.<BR></P> <P>__________________________________________________ _______________</P> <P>Hurk_ wrote:</P> <P>1. yes you do, check other vendors.<BR><BR>2. this is highly dependant on tradeskill<BR><BR>3. highly dependant on tradeskill<BR><BR>4. yes it is, we need an alternant release for crafted items.<BR><BR>5. no, its fine<BR><BR>6. the multi pulls should balance this. the real problem is the over reliance on too many tradeskill sources... it should be 2 average, not 3 average resources per recipie. (ie not roots wood and metal, but only 2 of the 3, so im only farming 2 resources)<BR><BR>personally if im a carpenter, and i need wood and ore and pelts and roots and even the occasional gemstone, im needing too much.  that was fine when there was some interdependance, now its just a damned waste. instead stick with wood + ore drops only, and a rare need for stone drops, and carpentry is fine... roots never need to come into the picture.<BR><BR>the same can be done for all tradeskills to cut down on what they are harvesting.<BR>________________________________________</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Madmoon on <span class=date_text>07-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:47 AM</span>

[Obadiah]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Madmoon wrote:<BR> <P>Wrong, Hurk.</P> <P>1)  You should not check other vendors, adding yet MORE tedious steps.  The tradeskill instance vendor should buy back at cost; if he/she is not, it should be fixed.</P> <P>2)  So what?  It needs to be fixed.  My Alchy has no major issue, as each level he gets 6 classes worth of combat arts to manufacture.  Plus the occasional potion or poison.  My Tailor, on the other hand, just got level 26 and has four (five?) hexdolls to make.  Each requiring a semi-rare sparkling.  After dinging each pristine, he was about 25% through the level, and has to grind the rest of the way, either churning out hex-dolls of his level (and there's no buy-back-break-even with the cost of purchasing the semi-rare!) or working on earlier, less experience rewarding levels.</P> <P>3)  Again, so what?  It needs to be fixed.  Armorers and weaponsmiths, <EM>at least</EM>, are in a very bad position.  Maybe for Sages it's all hunky-dory, but that doesn't mean it isn't broke.  Saying it's highly dependant on class is no excuse.</P> <P>4)  I like that alternate release idea.  Dunno what that might be, mind.  Bring back tradeskill writs?  Selling to the right faction (daggers to the mages, chain to the scouts, shields to the fighter guild, etc.) increases faction?</P> <P>5)  Experience is not fine if you have to grind to get out of a level.  When I leave the crafthall, I don't grind, I adventure.  I certainly don't want to grind here, and again, having to make recipes from previous levels just to gain experience means something is wrong.  LU24 took away all those necessary WORT grinds, replacing it with finished product grinds, and that is not all that much of an improvement.</P> <P>6)  This is just plain wrong.  Multi-pulls don't help at all, or only in the sense it would be much, much worse without them.  For whatever reason, the resource usuage is WAY out of whack.  I used to fill my bags once and be done for a tier, with maybe one more trip out at the very end to pick up a few roots, or gems, or whatever.  I have been out four times, so far, and am only 47th, and see another trip, maybe two, coming.</P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>1) Agreed.</P> <P>2) It sounds like you may need to bug XP gain for the Tailor. I get a teeny hair under 5% per 1st time pristine on my Tailor too. . . . . at level 55! :smileysurprised: I was getting closer to 7% when I was in the upper 40s after the LU, so you should be getting way more than 5% each.</P> <P>3&4) Meh. Opinion. Perspective. Whatever. I disagree. Because I'm lazy I've been watching for a common T4 wisdom weapon - which previously didn't exist. No one's making them - or they are selling so fast I never see them. So now I need to do it myself. Jerks. I really like that idea of making faction-specific writs though. That's a good one. If I could advance my Guard standing AND level my Weaponsmith. . . dude.</P> <P>5) If I could get 1.75% XP killing a solo mob I sure wouldn't be crafting. My point is, the XP in the 50s is still very nice. Having to make more than one of a recipe hardly constitutes a grind, IMO. I've made each common recipe (7) and 1 rare. Assuming I don't find any more Saguaro, level 55 Tailor is going to require that I make 35-36 level 55 pieces. Meh, that's nothing. So, a few pieces I may lose money on if I vendor them (nothing that will offset gains from sales). The rest I can sellover time.</P> <P>6) Multi-pulls and reduced harvest times do help. Tremendously. You spend a comparable amount of time overall either way, IMO. I think it just feels faster this way because it's more "Active". I guess the question is would you rather have that time spent harvesting - where you can't likely fill an 8 slot bag in any tier without encounter rares and uncommons, or in the TS zone making subs - where you CAN encounter rares via the "Event" but I've never seen one in 224 levels of crafting.</P>

[HeadImp]

<P>Thank you very much, Payne3.  This is exactly what we have been saying would happen with the tradeskills revamp.  You asked for it, you got it!!!</P> <P> </P>

[Vlahkmaak]

<P>In response to #4: You do not have to charge an arm and a leg for a mastercrafted item if you harvested the rare: you do so because of greed.  In fact, many crafters continue to over charge for combines.  I actually had a lvl 70 tailor try to tell me the fuel cost for a t4 hex doll was more than the 5 gold I offered to pay him.  I laughed at him and told him he was high.  He then said he was really just charging for the time it took to craft the item.  Since he was already in a TS zone and flagged LFW I knew he was not out farming mobs so his time was in consequential.  He was just plain greedy.  I outfitted a bruiser in master crafted items at 3gold per combine and even that, I believed, was steep considering it took a few minutes for his entire set of armor and weapons.  Provs got the short end of the stick.  I always priced low both to be fair to peeps and because I am quite frugal myself about the broker, a few gold for t4 drink, I thought, was ridiculous.  Now we cannot make anything on the market as most t4 food is 8 silver - 25 silver tops.  I can kill mobs for vendor trash on my nec faster and make more than my prov makes in the same session from harvesting and craftng: I pretty much only use the prov to outfit my other toons and a few guildies now.</P> <P>Sell reasonable - even with rare drops increased (especially proc rocks/flowers etc) their is little decrease in cost of rare ores - roots and woods have dropped within reason but feysteel, ebon, and the like continue to be listed for pp on the broker.  Greed due to the stupidity of peeps buying these items - go harvest a bit and prices will have to drop within reasn, esp now that crafters are not getting rich (at least provs - sage sell back will get you some cash ove time bad) .</P> <P> </P>

[Payne3]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> HeadImp wrote:<BR> <P>Thank you very much, Payne3.  This is exactly what we have been saying would happen with the tradeskills revamp.  You asked for it, you got it!!!</P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I never asked for this. I wouldn't wish this on a WoW player. :smileymad:

[Mishkel]

<P>The biggest "issue" I see with trade skills has been mentioned in this thread.  However, I would like to post on it again.</P> <P>I personally have been working:</P> <P>Provisoner</P> <P>Tailor</P> <P>Armorsmith</P> <P>Weaponsmith</P> <P>Jeweler</P> <P>Woodworker</P> <P>and a Sage I've had since launch.</P> <P>With Sage, Jeweler and Alchemist you in general get a rather large amount of recipies per level.  The easiest way to level those 3 is to make the combat arts/spells.  Just making the App versions you can level very fast.  So my Jeweler makes combat arts that I can't sell to a player for the most part.  Yet I make levels pretty fast doing this so I can turn around and make Jewelry (works for me).</P> <P>Yet my non 'scholar' based crafters often get so few recipies for many levels that I have to grind to level.</P> <P>I'm not sure that the other crafts have any advantage in being able to sell things.  So it just seems odd how easy at least 3 of the crafts can level.  Now based on my provisioner you can level that pretty fast and definitely sell your end product.  My provisioner (almost level 60) makes more money than every other crafter I have combined.</P> <P>My Alchemist used to make a lot of money but that was quite a while back.  I don't really craft on her much anymore unless I need a fighter based Adept 3.</P> <P>I don't believe in nerfs.  What I do believe is that the crafts should all have the same relative ability to level.  As well as they should all have a relatively equal ability to make money.  </P> <P>Oh and the "make money" part ignores the crazy prices I often see on Antonia Bayle for low level "rare" gear.  All that ever does is inspire me to go harvest for an hour and make it myself if I need it.</P> <P> </P>

[DerDrac]

Just a thought but what about getting rid of the subclasses in tradeskilling and just keeping it as the initial 3. That would give each person a hug variety of items to make, some of which would hopefully be easy money and also lessen the burden on people looking to get things made. As it is i have to search to find the proper people to get my spells or armor combines since i manage to find the wrong subclasses everytime i need the ones suited for my adventure class. Just a thought, may be a bad idea but it seems like everyone is unhappy with the lack of variety of items for each subclass or at least the lack of ability to make several things as they were doing before with subcombines. I found it kind of hard to fathom needed sooo many subcombines to just make a food item or peiece of armor though refinement could be added. I think that overall, with tinkering coming into play soon that crafters will have much more to do. To me tinkering sounds like imbuing but to the extreme. Im a tailor if you are wondering, just hit level 20 as i had a hard time with the old system i never did crafting. I like the new one but i can see it getting boring making 300 back packs that no one wants to buy heh. I went tailor hoping i will be one of the classes able to make cloaks. Plus with my alt going to be a fury in kelethin (big surprise) i wanted some armor readily available for leveling as well as bags and the like, so tailor was perfect for me, as for using it as a cash cow, i find that selling the ?'s to be much more profitable.<div></div>

[Dracor]

As a carpenter, too often a level comes up where I get only ONE or TWO recipies. That leaves more than 90% of my level to tradeskill through without prestine bonus, and doing so consumes a LOT of ore and resources.I don't agree with the other points, but something should be done about the recipe quantity.<div></div>

[Drakaran]

<div><blockquote><hr>Meniphisto wrote: We had the good times? Well I suppose you could say that now, but some of us that started TSing back in "the day" (beginning of the game), and tradeskilling is 100x easier then it has been. I remember when you had a max of 3 harvesting tries per node. If you failed to harvest an item, tough luck, you only get 2 more shots. Also, the so-called "rares" are common compaired to what they use to be. I can recall harvesting over 1000 nodes of gems just to get one ruby. I challenge you to harvest that much without getting 1 rare. XP is slow now? Can you imagine how it was back when there was no-such thing as vitality? Or how about when to make one item you had to rely on several different crafters. Some people got lucky and found a friend that could trade combines, some people had to make alts just to get them. Granted, money making has always been a bit hard for some crafters. But the way this game is going, money is in adventuring, not crafting. Sure, my opinion may be bias cause I'm a woodworker and can sell totems, tools, and some weapons. But hey! Thats life. This may sound mean, but if you want to complain about how hard something is, don't wait until its been simplified to do it.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Actually, I started crafting way back then as well. It wasn't that bad, you asked a friend, or bought off the broker the level 10, 20, etc books you needed in the other trade skill. It was a bug, but I wonder if it was intentional cause it allowed people to be self sufficient. I also don't remember XPing being bad, but it could be pretty tough to get pristines. But people were never happy, they kept whining, and SOE kept playing with it. The "Golden Era" for crafting was pre LU24... and when I heard about LU24, I TSed like crazy to get my skill up, cause I knew what it'd mean... </div>

[Te'ana]

Generally I like change, it adds spice and keeps the world from becoming static.  However, not all change is good!  My level 54 provisioner cannot sell her lower level stuff in T6 because it lacks stats now.  To further compicate matters,  some of the new vender bought stuff does have stats!  I am actually using some vender bought food and drink for my lower level alts because it is not worth the effort to craft for them anymore.  I also just get 4 recipes per level now and must get pristine or else I lose even more money.  In the past, my less than pristine food and drink just didn't last as long, and the duration was spaced out over the 4 levels of quality I could produce. that meant I always got some value for my efforts and it was fun to see what stats I could craft for, etc.  Now its all the same duration and the same stats for each type of food or drink.  The only difference in quality now is that for pristine I get 2 items and for the other 3 levels I get one item.  It is also so boring now that I actually fall asleep while crafting!  And to top it all off, the new weird recipes don't make culinary sense anymore!!!!!

[Drakaran]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Te'ana wrote:<div></div>Generally I like change, it adds spice and keeps the world from becoming static.  However, not all change is good!  My level 54 provisioner cannot sell her lower level stuff in T6 because it lacks stats now.  To further compicate matters,  some of the new vender bought stuff does have stats!  I am actually using some vender bought food and drink for my lower level alts because it is not worth the effort to craft for them anymore.  I also just get 4 recipes per level now and must get pristine or else I lose even more money.  In the past, my less than pristine food and drink just didn't last as long, and the duration was spaced out over the 4 levels of quality I could produce. that meant I always got some value for my efforts and it was fun to see what stats I could craft for, etc.  Now its all the same duration and the same stats for each type of food or drink.  The only difference in quality now is that for pristine I get 2 items and for the other 3 levels I get one item.  It is also so boring now that I actually fall asleep while crafting!  And to top it all off, the new weird recipes don't make culinary sense anymore!!!!!<hr></blockquote>Exact same thing I'm experiencing with my provisioner as well...   Also, I can't use the stuff I make at the lower end of a tier to help at the higher end like I used to, so I have to wade through a lot of levels to get to good stuff and all the previous stuff I just wind up merchant fodder etc. Also with the need to make pristine as the main way of getting xp TSing for Provisioner, I wind up with tons of 2 items that clog my inventory and can't be used for later combines.REPEAL LU24!!! It's killing tradskilling!</div><p>Message Edited by Drakaran on <span class=date_text>07-11-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:21 AM</span>