Was There a Point in taking recipes away from Crafters??

[Maroger]

<DIV>After Lu24 many crafters lost recipes they had been making. Was there a point in all this or was it just a further nerf?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My jeweler used to make gold bangles at level 20-21 - recipes gone and I still do not have it at level 24.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I used to make Bone Wands ( fletching skill) -- I lost it and it was put in a newly created book -- did we really need these new books -- or just anoter way to nerf everyone.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hex dolls were in their own books -- sudden instead of just converting those books over, the books were done away with and some hex dolls ended up in recipe books containing Blackened Iron Armor or weapons? Did that really make any sense putting them in books for an armorer instead of in the one for tailors???</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#99ff00>Is there any justification for all this??? Can anyone make one??</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#99ff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#99ff00>Or is this just part of killing off tradeskilling!!</FONT></DIV>

[Lilj]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Maroger wrote:<BR> <DIV>Hex dolls were in their own books -- sudden instead of just converting those books over, the books were done away with and some hex dolls ended up in recipe books containing Blackened Iron Armor or weapons? Did that really make any sense putting them in books for an armorer instead of in the one for tailors???</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#99ff00>Is there any justification for all this??? Can anyone make one??</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#99ff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#99ff00>Or is this just part of killing off tradeskilling!!</FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You are talking about T2 here, the tier where outfitters are still outfitters and not tailors, weaponsmiths and armorers. So the hex doll recipe was put in an outfitter book. The outfitter recipes are a mixed bunch of leather, blackened iron armor and weapons recipes, so I don't see the problem.</P> <P>Of course if someone is just complaining for the sake of complaining, I guess T2 hex doll recipes location is a good place to start.</P> <P> </P>

[Zahmekos]

<blockquote><hr>Liljna wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Maroger wrote: <div>Hex dolls were in their own books -- sudden instead of just converting those books over, the books were done away with and some hex dolls ended up in recipe books containing Blackened Iron Armor or weapons? Did that really make any sense putting them in books for an armorer instead of in the one for tailors???</div> <div> </div> <div><font color="#99ff00">Is there any justification for all this??? Can anyone make one??</font></div> <div><font color="#99ff00"></font> </div> <div><font color="#99ff00">Or is this just part of killing off tradeskilling!!</font></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>You are talking about T2 here, the tier where outfitters are still outfitters and not tailors, weaponsmiths and armorers. So the hex doll recipe was put in an outfitter book. The outfitter recipes are a mixed bunch of leather, blackened iron armor and weapons recipes, so I don't see the problem.</p> <p>Of course if someone is just complaining for the sake of complaining, I guess T2 hex doll recipes location is a good place to start.</p> <hr></blockquote>You could buy the advanced hex doll recipie in the TS academy, but you cant buy the advanced outfitter recipies in the TS academy. Maybe thats the problem ?^^ <div></div>

[Maroger]

<P>Well let see Outfitter books had titles liked:</P> <P>Advanced Outfitter -- Heavy Armor</P> <P>Advanced Outfitter - Cloth Armor</P> <P>Advanced Outfitter - Dual Wield Weapons</P> <P>Advanced Outfitter - One Handed weapons</P> <P>So if you wanted to by a tailor you obviously didn't buy the book on Heavy armor since that was all about making blackened Iron Armor</P> <P>The point about the hex dolls is that they stuck them books that Armorers and Weaponsmithg would buy NOT tailor.</P> <P>Also they created new books for Advanced Craftsmen so craftsman lost a lot the recipes they already had in books so they were moved into these newly created books.</P> <P>In T3 My jeweler lost the recipes he had at 20-21 for Gold bangles -- at 24 I still don't have them back.</P> <P>Metal throwing wepons usually part of the weaponsmith books were given to Woodworkers.<BR></P> <P>THERE IS A WHOLE LOT OF THIS STUFF that went on in LU24 -- THERE WAS NO NEED TO MOVE THESE RECIPES!!!</P> <P> </P>

[Lilj]

<P>Maroger, I'm  a tailor myself and thereby an outfitter. I did buy all the outfitter books, because I liked that I could make iron armor and weapons too.</P> <P>To the poster that said perhaps the problem was that the books could be bought in the tradeskill society before and not anymore. I doubt that is what he is complaining about. He is simply angry that T2 hex dolls is put in an outfitter books not specifically for a tailor. And I really can't see the problem. Sorry, but it's whining just for the sake of whining. But if you check Marogers posts in general, that's what they have been lately. </P> <P>I'm sorry for the tone, but I'm getting extremely tired of this attitude and this ranting. What about we use the energy on something more important than what outfitter book one recipe is in?</P> <P>Seems weaponsmiths are in dire need of help, some recipes seems to be lacking (as in completely gone), I imagine that could be more important than the switching of a hex doll recipe.</P> <P> </P>

[Mabes]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Maroger wrote:<BR> <DIV>After Lu24 many crafters lost recipes they had been making. Was there a point in all this or was it just a further nerf?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>My jeweler used to make gold bangles at level 20-21 - recipes gone and I still do not have it at level 24.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I used to make Bone Wands ( fletching skill) -- I lost it and it was put in a newly created book -- did we really need these new books -- or just anoter way to nerf everyone.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hex dolls were in their own books -- sudden instead of just converting those books over, the books were done away with and some hex dolls ended up in recipe books containing Blackened Iron Armor or weapons? Did that really make any sense putting them in books for an armorer instead of in the one for tailors???</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff>Is there any justification for all this??? Can anyone make one??</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff>Or is this just part of killing off tradeskilling!!</FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You will be able to make gold bangles, along with the other gold and palladium jewelry, at level 28.  They didn't remove many recipes for jewelers, in fact they added a bunch, but they changed the levels at which you get them.<BR></P>

[Maroger]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Liljna wrote:<BR> <P>Maroger, I'm  a tailor myself and thereby an outfitter. I did buy all the outfitter books, because I liked that I could make iron armor and weapons too.</P> <P>To the poster that said perhaps the problem was that the books could be bought in the tradeskill society before and not anymore. I doubt that is what he is complaining about. He is simply angry that T2 hex dolls is put in an outfitter books not specifically for a tailor. And I really can't see the problem. Sorry, but it's whining just for the sake of whining. But if you check Marogers posts in general, that's what they have been lately. </P> <P>I'm sorry for the tone, but I'm getting extremely tired of this attitude and this ranting. What about we use the energy on something more important than what outfitter book one recipe is in?</P> <P>Seems weaponsmiths are in dire need of help, some recipes seems to be lacking (as in completely gone), I imagine that could be more important than the switching of a hex doll recipe.</P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>If you would read the entire post  it was not just about Hex dolls, it was also about things that happened to others -- i.e creating new books and removing recipes people already had into these new books. It was moving recipes people already had into higher level books they did not yet have. It was moving throwing weapons from weaponsmiths to Woodworkers.</P> <P>You may not like what I have to say but crafter all around got the shaft in this LU -- Armorer lost all the stats so that they can't sell anything anymore -- Even with rare materials the stuff is just junk and not better than common drops -- was that fair? Was there any need for that unless SOE wanted to kill off tradeskills completely.</P> <P>This ended up hurting lower level tradeskillers- -- if you were already a Level 70 crafter you really don't havey to worry, or even care what happened to lower level crafters. This was a total nerf and a real effort to drive tradeskillers out of business.</P> <P>Look at the pathetic amount we get now when we have to sell stuff to the NPC Vendor because we now make junk!!!</P> <P><BR> </P>

[Macibaru]

<div><blockquote><hr>Maroger wrote:<div></div>You may not like what I have to say but crafter all around got the shaft in this LU -- Armorer lost all the stats so that they can't sell anything anymore -- Even with rare materials the stuff is just junk and not better than common drops -- was that fair? Was there any need for that unless SOE wanted to kill off tradeskills completely. <p>This ended up hurting lower level tradeskillers- -- if you were already a Level 70 crafter you really don't havey to worry, or even care what happened to lower level crafters. This was a total nerf and a real effort to drive tradeskillers out of business.</p> <p>Look at the pathetic amount we get now when we have to sell stuff to the NPC Vendor because we now make junk!!!</p> <hr></blockquote>The stuff we can make now IS NOT JUNK!. The common armor/weapons/etc It is EXACTLY on par with what you'd get from common solo mobs of the same level. The rare armor/weapons/etc is EXACTLY on par with what you'd get from rare nameds or solo quests of the same level. They are BOTH on par in difficulty to create/have created with the drops/rewards they are on par with stat wise.It only HURTS tradeskillers for us to run around screaming this stuff is junk, when it is ABSOLUTELY NOT! Take 5 minutes to do a scan of various items of the same level/type as what you've made and you'll see that.Just because every piece is no longer the end all be all gear for every tier does not make this stuff junk. For the time/effort cost this stuff is exactly where it should be itemization wise. Crafters really need to stop screaming that the sky is falling, suck it up, and enjoy the game. If they can't do that, this stuff isn't changing back, so they need to find something about the game they enjoy or quit.I've got 4 low-level crafters, and no high level ones, for the record. I'm still selling common crafted items, including all the stuff people are screaming is junk and that noone ever buys. I'm still upgrading all my alts with the stuff I make, and getting guildies to make the stuff I can't, as it's all upgrades. I doubt every piece I've made in the last few days will sell, but stuff is selling, more than covering the opportunity costs of my crafting habit, and even raising my bank account regularly.</div>

[Obadiah]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Maroger wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>You may not like what I have to say but crafter all around got the shaft in this LU -- Armorer lost all the stats so that they can't sell anything anymore -- Even with rare materials the stuff is just junk and not better than common drops -- was that fair? Was there any need for that unless SOE wanted to kill off tradeskills completely.</P> <P>Look at the pathetic amount we get now when we have to sell stuff to the NPC Vendor because we now make junk!!!</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>If you enjoy crafting, please stop saying this. Even with everyone and their brother's dog crafting since the patch I've sold lots of T5 non-rare crafted cloth and leather because IT'S BETTER. It used to be worthless. I've purchased some post-LU24 non-rare chain for a healer because IT'S BETTER. The more people spread this "junk" message, the more people will stop even giving crafted items a second glance even though IT'S NOT JUNK.</P>

[chOgg]

<P>I'm a mid-level crafter and adventurer, and I think the problem with perceptions of crafted goods may have to do with level.  At my level, I outgrow my gear so fast that I can't keep up.  I often go to the broker and buy crafted stuff because it is within my price range and an upgrade to something I'm wearing that is 10 levels old.  Before level 50 or so, I can see where crafters could sell tons of stuff.</P> <P> </P> <P>Since I have no characters above that level, I can only assume that the top-level crafted gear is what is not as good as the dropped stuff.  At the high end, this game tempts adventurers to content with great dropped gear.  What else would high-level adventurers do if they didn't have to adventure/raid to get better gear so they can adventure/raid more?</P> <P> </P> <P>So, it seems to me that dropped gear at the top end has to be better than crafted, but that for the rest of us, crafted gear can be just as good or better.</P> <P> </P> <P>chOgg</P>

[Maroger]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> chOgg wrote:<BR> <P>I'm a mid-level crafter and adventurer, and I think the problem with perceptions of crafted goods may have to do with level.  At my level, I outgrow my gear so fast that I can't keep up.  I often go to the broker and buy crafted stuff because it is within my price range and an upgrade to something I'm wearing that is 10 levels old.  Before level 50 or so, I can see where crafters could sell tons of stuff.</P> <P> </P> <P>Since I have no characters above that level, I can only assume that the top-level crafted gear is what is not as good as the dropped stuff.  At the high end, this game tempts adventurers to content with great dropped gear.  What else would high-level adventurers do if they didn't have to adventure/raid to get better gear so they can adventure/raid more?</P> <P> </P> <P>So, it seems to me that dropped gear at the top end has to be better than crafted, but that for the rest of us, crafted gear can be just as good or better.</P> <P> </P> <P>chOgg</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Ok in the case of my armorer -- on a chest piece for level 20 -- all the resists were removed and the stats were lowered ( most cases cut in half) -- now that is a MAJOR NERF.</P> <P>I won't even try and craft with a rare as it is still lower in quality than it used to be. </P> <P>My weaponsmith used to make throwing weapons and now they were taken away from him and are on my woodworker!!! Does that make any sense especially as the weaponsmith has few enough weapons as it is to make.</P> <P>It is as if SOE went out of their way to kill off tradeskilling!!<BR></P>

[Maroger]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Obadiah wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Maroger wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>You may not like what I have to say but crafter all around got the shaft in this LU -- Armorer lost all the stats so that they can't sell anything anymore -- Even with rare materials the stuff is just junk and not better than common drops -- was that fair? Was there any need for that unless SOE wanted to kill off tradeskills completely.</P> <P>Look at the pathetic amount we get now when we have to sell stuff to the NPC Vendor because we now make junk!!!</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>If you enjoy crafting, please stop saying this. Even with everyone and their brother's dog crafting since the patch I've sold lots of T5 non-rare crafted cloth and leather because IT'S BETTER. It used to be worthless. I've purchased some post-LU24 non-rare chain for a healer because IT'S BETTER. The more people spread this "junk" message, the more people will stop even giving crafted items a second glance even though IT'S NOT JUNK.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Maybe in T5 it is OK but believe me in T2 and T3 what we make is junk. My armorer had all his resists removed from the armor and the stats were cut in half from what they used to be. Surely you have noticed the screen shots people have posted of the before and after LU24 armor? Right now I am sorry it is JUNK!!!<BR>

[Arathy]

I cannot, for the life of me, seem to locate Advanced Outfitter 20 or Advanced Tailoring 30.. which makes me wonder if the 20, 30, 40, etc are even in game.

[valkyrja]

<div><blockquote><hr>Maroger wrote:<div></div> <p>Ok in the case of my armorer -- on a chest piece for level 20 -- all the resists were removed and the stats were lowered ( most cases cut in half) -- now that is a MAJOR NERF.</p> <p>I won't even try and craft with a rare as it is still lower in quality than it used to be. </p> <p>My weaponsmith used to make throwing weapons and now they were taken away from him and are on my woodworker!!! Does that make any sense especially as the weaponsmith has few enough weapons as it is to make.</p> <p>It is as if SOE went out of their way to kill off tradeskilling!!</p><hr></blockquote>Enough with the throwing weapons already!  Woodworkers also lost tower and kite shields.</div>

[valkyrja]

<div><blockquote><hr>Fentan99 wrote:I cannot, for the life of me, seem to locate Advanced Outfitter 20 or Advanced Tailoring 30.. which makes me wonder if the 20, 30, 40, etc are even in game.<hr></blockquote>There isn't an advanced outfitter 20, becuase once you're 20, you're no longer an outfitter.  As for tailor books...  If I recall correctly pre-lu24, there were no tailor books at those levels.</div>

[Jooneau]

<blockquote><hr>Macibaru wrote:<div>The stuff we can make now IS NOT JUNK!. The common armor/weapons/etc It is EXACTLY on par with what you'd get from common solo mobs of the same level. The rare armor/weapons/etc is EXACTLY on par with what you'd get from rare nameds or solo quests of the same level. They are BOTH on par in difficulty to create/have created with the drops/rewards they are on par with stat wise.</div><hr></blockquote>Sorry, you're wrong. Handcrafted gear is the same or worse than gear you can get from easy questing or easy solo NPC's. Mastercrafted gear is the same or as good as gear that are common drops off easy group NPC's. Nothing you make is as good as the uncommon drops from group NPC's or nameds. Tradeable legendary and fabled equipment and rewards from difficult quests blow away anything you can make.The best way to understand crafted gear now is to equate it to the Sage equivalents:Handcrafted = Apprentice4.Common drop = Adept1.Mastercrafted = Adept3.Rare drop = Master1.<p>Message Edited by Jooneau on <span class=date_text>06-20-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:44 PM</span>

[Macibaru]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Jooneau wrote:<blockquote><hr>Macibaru wrote:<div>The stuff we can make now IS NOT JUNK!. The common armor/weapons/etc It is EXACTLY on par with what you'd get from common solo mobs of the same level. The rare armor/weapons/etc is EXACTLY on par with what you'd get from rare nameds or solo quests of the same level. They are BOTH on par in difficulty to create/have created with the drops/rewards they are on par with stat wise.</div><hr></blockquote>Sorry, you're wrong. Handcrafted gear is the same or worse than gear you can get from easy questing or easy solo NPC's. Mastercrafted gear is the same or as good as gear that are common drops off easy group NPC's. Nothing you make is as good as the uncommon drops from group NPC's or nameds. Tradeable legendary and fabled equipment and rewards from difficult quests blow away anything you can make.The best way to understand crafted gear now is to equate it to the Sage equivalents:Handcrafted = Apprentice4.Common drop = Adept1.Mastercrafted = Adept3.Rare drop = Master1.<p>Message Edited by Jooneau on <span class="date_text">06-20-2006</span> <span class="time_text">12:44 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>uh, to be snide, you just said exactly what I said. Common Crafted ~ Common Drops of Solo Mobs; Rare Crafted ~ Moderate difficulty SOLO Quest Rewards and Heroic/Named Common Drops (<=Legendary, <b>not anywhere near</b> Fabled). Seriously, take two common dropped (solo) pieces of the same level gear, two bows, two Chest Items, anything, and compare them with the crafted piece of the same level. They're almost always only a very small bit off of one another.Difficult quests and Epic drops do, and SHOULD be better than anything you can craft. As, in the current system, they are ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE harder to get. Unless and until something can be added to/changed to crafting to make it as difficutl as it is to do a long drawn out quest or fight in a raid and pray for a rare drop, then there is no way in hell the resulting gear should be as good.(I'd like to see something added/changed to provide that challenge for crafters and provide the resultingly great gear (~Fabled), but it doesn't exist now, so gear of the same quality shouldn't either.)As long as it continues to be relatively the same difficulty to create/buy common crafte as common drops the two should be relatively the same in resulting quality. And they ARE.This isn't crap. I'm selling it. I am equipping my characters in it. People are buying it. This constant INCORRECT negative perception that is being shouted from the rooftops as fact only hurts crafters long term.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Macibaru on <span class="date_text">06-20-2006</span> <span class="time_text">10:09 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Macibaru on <span class="date_text">06-20-2006</span> <span class="time_text">10:11 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Macibaru on <span class=date_text>06-20-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:12 AM</span>

[Calthine]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Macibaru wrote:<BR> This isn't crap. I'm selling it. I am equipping my characters in it. People are buying it. This constant INCORRECT negative perception that is being shouted from the rooftops as fact only hurts crafters long term.<BR> <P> </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>QFE

[Obadiah]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Maroger wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE>Maybe in T5 it is OK but believe me in T2 and T3 what we make is junk. My armorer had all his resists removed from the armor and the stats were cut in half from what they used to be. Surely you have noticed the screen shots people have posted of the before and after LU24 armor? Right now I am sorry it is JUNK!!!<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I haven't actually. I would very much like to. I can't find all that many screenshots. Nothing for t2 or t3 armor. I was able to find t4. . . feysteel vanguard:</P> <P>Before: 9 Str, 5 Agi, 235 Mit, 27H, 25P, 175 Disease, 140 Magic<BR>After: 7 Str, 7 Agi, 7 Sta, 222 Mit, 25H, 25P, 74 Disease, 74 Poison, 47 Magic, 47 Divine</P> <P>As with other pieces I've seen, I'd entertain arguments both ways. Keep in mind though, that the stat bonuses from piece to piece are now adjusted as well. The old feysteel barbute, for example, would have offered a Wis and Int bonus. Now the tank version will have the same Str, Agi, Sta bonus. So overall the "suit" of feysteel is going to offer some nice stats. I'd very much like to see a character's mit & stats with a full suit of "Old School" vs. a full suit of "New Wave" crafted armor. Probably never will, but, well, it'd be cool, and stuff. :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P>If anyone has some more comparison data, that's the kind of stuff that makes for good discussion. Without the facts, you can toss out "It's all junk" and I can toss out "It's all better" and we're both effectively just tossing off. :smileysurprised: I"d rather get the information out there dispassionately and let everyone decide for themselves what's valuable and what's not.<BR></P>

[Macibaru]

<div><blockquote><hr>Calthine wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Macibaru wrote: <div></div> <div></div> <div></div>This isn't crap. I'm selling it. I am equipping my characters in it. People are buying it. This constant INCORRECT negative perception that is being shouted from the rooftops as fact only hurts crafters long term. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>QFE<hr></blockquote><<<Acronym StupidWhat does QFE mean?</div>

[Mabes]

<P>QFE = Quotes For Emphasis</P>

[Junkisfunk]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Macibaru wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Calthine wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Macibaru wrote:<BR> This isn't crap. I'm selling it. I am equipping my characters in it. People are buying it. This constant INCORRECT negative perception that is being shouted from the rooftops as fact only hurts crafters long term.<BR> <P> </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>QFE<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><<<Acronym Stupid<BR><BR>What does QFE mean?<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I believe it means "Quoted for Emphsis".</P> <P>Junk</P>

[Macibaru]

Thanks...I learn something new every day.Today, I am done learning...back to being stupid, yay.<div></div>