What I have learned from playing a Buffbot on Test [Archive]

Amataelia

06-06-2006, 11:11 PM

I decided to roll a few classes on Test to try out and test the new beta zone for The Fallen Dynasty. When I did this I took the three classes I knew best so as not to feel like I bought a toon off Ebay. On live I play a 64 Wizzy, a 53 Bruiser and a 51 Brigand so these are the three classes I decided to betabuff. I also grouped with guildmates who went about betabuffing the same way I did, playing classes that they were already familiar with. So we all set out to take on the new mobs in the ap with all our rare crafted gear on and adept 3 spells. Most of the mobs in the new ap are green conned to us and as a full group that is experienced in the classes we were playing and experienced in playing together we got our butts handed to us quite a bit. A solo ^^^ green mob should not be able to do this to an experienced group outfitted in the best crafted gear......wait a minute, maybe this is the problem.SOE outfitted everyone in the best rare crafted gear available, low resists, low mitigation and so-so stats. If SOE can learn anything from the beta testers in this trial ap please let them see that the rare crafted gear we have available to us SUCKS for the most part. For a long time I have been on the tailor boards hyping a few of our items, I do believe some of the caster gear we have available is great, but for other classes and the armor they have available there is an issue. I hope SOE learns from this beta some of the things I have learned, I hope they not only look for bugs in the design of the ap but also test the armor that they expect crafters to be able to sell. That rare crafted armor is supposed to be better than common dropped loot (which KoS is proving different) and it isn't better. I could go on and on with all the topics in the tradeskill forums as to why this is ruining crafters but I won't. I just want SOE to take a look at how well a player in fully equipped rare crafted armor, weapons and jewelry can do against mobs that are a few levels below them. As a casual, non raiding player I don't see how SOE expects me to be able to wear rare crafted gear and take on mobs that I am supposed to be able to defeat solo or grouped. Am I wrong or is a casual player supposed to be able to wear rare crafted gear an entire tier? Isn't this the place of rare crafted armor? Sure, some legendary pieces may drop to replace a few of these items but for the most part crafted is supposed to last me an entire tier (well 8 levels in KoS). My experience in the beta buffed environment of the ap has not shown this to be true. Let's just hope SOE learns the same things I have.Amataelia64 Wizzy70 Tailorand too many alts to listGods of ChaosBlackburrow<div></div>

Krieg

06-07-2006, 12:14 AM

So to sum up, you learned crafted items suck?

Rast

06-07-2006, 12:18 AM

Not really a surprise though... They have decided that raiding is the end game and nothing other than raiding will make you competitive. Their decision, one I don't like, but the only way I can express that displeasure will be to move on to what ever game catches my attention and deprive them of those funds.

GCT

06-07-2006, 12:21 AM

I think this is more a case of things still needing to be tweaked before release. Thanks to the OP for bringing these issues up.

CoLD MeTaL

06-07-2006, 12:44 AM

To the OP, yes, devs have 'specifically' stated that crafted items will be less in quality than common (wood chest) drops, and yes, i hve found the same thing with my beta buffed character, all that 'originally thought' wonderfully rare crafted gear is just about worthless.Oh well, so it goes.

Amataelia

06-07-2006, 12:51 AM

<div><blockquote><hr>shagg22 wrote:<div></div>So to sum up, you learned crafted items suck?<hr></blockquote>Just to clarify a bit, my post was written in sarcasm and frustration..........thanks for the wonderful feedback !</div>

Maroger

06-07-2006, 12:51 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CoLD MeTaL wrote: To the OP, yes, devs have 'specifically' stated that crafted items will be less in quality than common (wood chest) drops, and yes, i hve found the same thing with my beta buffed character, all that 'originally thought' wonderfully rare crafted gear is just about worthless. Oh well, so it goes. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> I think that they have made a bad decision but I guess they will learn the folly of their ways in time. Crafted items made from Rares should always be better than common drops!! Otherwise why did they bother to have a crafting skill in the game!!

Rast

06-07-2006, 12:56 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Maroger wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CoLD MeTaL wrote: To the OP, yes, devs have 'specifically' stated that crafted items will be less in quality than common (wood chest) drops, and yes, i hve found the same thing with my beta buffed character, all that 'originally thought' wonderfully rare crafted gear is just about worthless. Oh well, so it goes. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> I think that they have made a bad decision but I guess they will learn the folly of their ways in time. Crafted items made from Rares should always be better than common drops!! Otherwise why did they bother to have a crafting skill in the game!! <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I think that if they had their way to do it over again, that they wouldn't have... As it is, it seems like they are pushing tradeskilling into such a whole that it won't be done and once that happens, they can justify its elimination without the outcry they would get if they just did so.

Flor

06-07-2006, 01:13 AM

As an avid crafter just reaching this higher tiers of armoring, I'm really, really discouraged with the crafting part of this game and what is coming down the line. To add insult to injury, when I dinged 66 armorer, one of my guildmates commented that armorers are pretty worthless and I would have a hard time finding anyone wanting my good---great motivational speech.....:smileysad: And now that I'm crafting the "rare" armor, what a let down for me. Drastic crafting changes in any game, IMHO, is a bad idea. Crafting appeals to many people and having a system that is trivial and one that produces inferior goods is not condusive to the long term health of the game. I'm really, really depressed about crafting at this point and just want to get my two higher level crafters to level 70 so I can be finished (and to help guildies). Now that my adventure level is high enough to wear T7 gear, I'm pretty unimpressed with the gear available. Not being a raider, I guess that I will always be floundering around in inferior gear. The OP's post is depressing and something that will make me think about my longevity in EQ2. I will reserve judgement until I see the changes but I'm not liking what I'm hearing or reading.

Ebjelen

06-07-2006, 02:14 AM

This time last year, lvl 50 was the end game. What level will it be next year; two years from now; three years? We're still only in the second year. If crafting gear is always better than loot drops, then what would be the motivation to even look for new gear in the field? Why would we need gear to drop as loot at all? Should a quick trip down to the cellar to visit a broker be all that is required to obtain top of the line gear? After all, if all one needs is platinum to obtain the best gear, then open a browser window and head to eBay, or hit up the guildies. It would work as long as lions, tigers and bears* still drop coin loot. I guess it depends upon which is more important to the individual, the journey or the destination. The developers are obviously opting for the journey. *A quote hack from L. Frank Baum -- The Wizard of Oz

TalanRM

06-07-2006, 03:00 AM

<DIV>Ebjelen - crafted gear should never be better than top end dropped gear (unless of course it is made from top end dropped components). However, in T7 allot of crafted gear is so bad that common dropped gear is far better than the rare crafted gear. If the particular slot of item you need is not one of the common drops (so that legandary dropped items arnt in the 20gp to 1p range) then it is easily possible to single group T6 raid zones to gain T6 fabled gear to replace T7 rare crafted items for free.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There can be no argument that adventured geared should be better than crafted gear.... until the adventured drops are so common (due to the over reliance on instances) that the broker is full of dirt cheap legendary items when allot of common drops beat rare crafted items.</DIV>

TaleraRis

06-07-2006, 03:35 AM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Ebjelen wrote:<div></div> Should a quick trip down to the cellar to visit a broker be all that is required to obtain top of the line gear? <hr></blockquote>That's apparently all that it requires now. I'm often told when I argue in a thread for solo/duo/small group pathways to better gear that I should just go farm and buy it off the broker. This is because of the deluge of Legendary gear that drops like candy and is tradeable and is much better than even the rare crafted gear.At least crafting takes effort from someone. Farming a bunch of cash doesn't take effort. I like to earn what I have, and taking away the opportunity to work for what I have in regards to crafted items is just crap, imho.<div></div>

Galeden

06-07-2006, 03:50 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ebjelen wrote: This time last year, lvl 50 was the end game. What level will it be next year; two years from now; three years? We're still only in the second year. If crafting gear is always better than loot drops, then what would be the motivation to even look for new gear in the field? Why would we need gear to drop as loot at all? Should a quick trip down to the cellar to visit a broker be all that is required to obtain top of the line gear? After all, if all one needs is platinum to obtain the best gear, then open a browser window and head to eBay, or hit up the guildies. It would work as long as lions, tigers and bears* still drop coin loot. I guess it depends upon which is more important to the individual, the journey or the destination. The developers are obviously opting for the journey. *A quote hack from L. Frank Baum -- The Wizard of Oz <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Your argument does not hold up, because the same thing goes for dropped gear, it can be sold and bought on the broker, no different from crafted except that the crafter is made useless. Progression of value should be something like common loot drop < common crafted < rare loot < rare crafted < legendary loot + The legendary would be from the hard named and such, from master chests, and should also not be tradable to prevent what you have said, buying your way to the best. Now I don't mean like common crafted should be almost to rare loot, it should be somewhere in between, so its just somewhat better then common, but it does give a little edge, same with the rare crafted, but it would be no where near the legendary loot.

Rast

06-07-2006, 05:12 PM

Personally, I've always thought crafted gear should be the best gear available, but it should be commenserate with the difficulty and in EQ2, that means it should be the worst to compensate for the pathetically easy time we have of it. I believe that the best stuff in the game should take efforts from not just one aspect of the game, but all aspects (ie, the best gear should be rare group (not raid) drop components crafted by a crafter). I think Raid drop gear should be the best pure drop gear, but I believe it should be tailored specifically for raiders and shouldn't be the end all be all for solo or group play (I think the rare group drop should be better group gear than the raid gear is group gear). The problem always comes in how to balance this and the first key would be to understand what the players what and how to augment the play style they are being rewarded for. For a single player this might be one thing, while a group toon might be something else and raid even further something else (raid groups are rarely ever concerned with stats for example, while a solo or group toon likely would be)

Madmoon

06-07-2006, 08:52 PM

From a buyer's perspective, this is insane. I already have a hard enough time getting gear, if they have even less incentive for crafters, how the heck am I going to get outfitted? I am restricted to leather and cloth, and as a fighter, cloth is out. Even with better statistics, I need the armor value. So, now I have to wait for a drop, and hope that it is a) leather, b) with stats I can use and c) in a slot I can use? I thought the bruiser nerfs were bad, but it just keeps piling on.

Alaeth

06-07-2006, 09:03 PM

I really liked how FFXI handled the crafted/dropped equipment question. In that game, high-end gear consists of a few distinct types; along with the standard no-trade HNM (epic) drops like sky/sea god armor or relic armor from Dynamis, you could also get what's referred to as Abjuration armor, where you receive a no-trade "uncursing" scroll as a drop from a raid mob. You then take that scroll and a crafted, tradeable piece of cursed armor, which is uneqippable in that form, and trade them to a NPC to receive the uncursed version (also no-trade). There are, if I'm remembering correctly, six different Abjuration sets, each of which is designed for different classes, and individual abjurations each have a chance to drop from specific mobs, some of which are force-popped and some of which are contested. Nearly all of the body abjurations drop from rare pops of contested mobs, and are not 100% drop rate, so they're among the most "elite" armor in the game (with two exceptions, both of which drop from a force-popped mob that requires items from four other force-popped epics, each of which requires items from two different heroic named equivalents).In addition to this, some HNMs--and even some of what would be more on a level with heroic named in EQ2--have a chance to drop rare crafting supplies. Some, like the divine log or siren hair, are used in crafting the cursed armor for use with Abjurations, but some are used to make sellable equipment. This has good and bad sides, though. On the good hand, it allows people who might not be in a raid guild the chance to purchase top-end (albeit very expensive) equipment, but on the bad hand, because it's available, it became almost expected that any warrior/dark knight/samurai would have a haubergeon at 59, or a ninja or monk would have a scorpion harness at 57, and so on.Despite that, though--which is more a reflection on FFXI's excessively rigid grouping requirements than the game's itemization, I think--I like the idea of equipment craftable from epic drops. For the very highest of the high end, I haven't seen any idea that beats Abjurations; not only do you have to get the scroll itself, you also have to get the dropped supplies needed to craft the cursed armor and then find a max-level crafter of the appropriate type. It's somewhat similar to relic armor in EQ2, but not only is it rarer (at least for the "top" pieces like the earthen/martial/aquarian bodies or crimson head/legs), it also requires high-level crafters to play a part as well. That sort of interplay between crafters and raiders is one of the biggest things that seems to be missing from EQ2 when I compare it to my endgame experience in FFXI.

Cuz

06-07-2006, 09:40 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ebjelen wrote: Should a quick trip down to the cellar to visit a broker be all that is required to obtain top of the line gear? <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> You can buy yourself 70 levels of tradeskilling on the broker now? You and a dev before you, are belittling the crafters that grind to get to the levels needed to make the armour.

Schaestm

06-07-2006, 09:49 PM

You armorers had your day back in tier 5 and 6 when you charged 50g per combine for your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] cobalt and ebon armors. I'm not going to feel sorry for you not being able to sell your crap. But look on the bright side, everyone that wants some good heritage quest items should be crafting =) (Bone Clasped Girdle pwns) ~Morb

Cynto

06-07-2006, 11:21 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Schaestmos wrote: You armorers had your day back in tier 5 and 6 when you charged 50g per combine for your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] cobalt and ebon armors. I'm not going to feel sorry for you not being able to sell your crap. But look on the bright side, everyone that wants some good heritage quest items should be crafting =) (Bone Clasped Girdle pwns) ~Morb <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Just because you had run ins with people that all tried to charge you 50g for the combine dosn't mean we're all jerks. In fact, I never charged more than 20g for even Imbued Cobalt pieces, and thats back when they cost 14g just in materials to produce. Appearently you got burned, but if you actually paid people 50g instead of looking for others to make your stuff for you for less then thats your own fault, and honestly, its not a good reason for our gear to be worth next to nothing. Besides, now instead of paying 50g to someone to make your armor, you pay 50g to someone that looted it.

Cuz

06-07-2006, 11:22 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Schaestmos wrote: You armorers had your day back in tier 5 and 6 when you charged 50g per combine for your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] cobalt and ebon armors. I'm not going to feel sorry for you not being able to sell your crap. But look on the bright side, everyone that wants some good heritage quest items should be crafting =) (Bone Clasped Girdle pwns) ~Morb <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> There's no "good side" for those of us who enjoyed crafting in what you just posted.

Errie_Tholluxe

06-08-2006, 02:43 AM

From creating my own 'buffbot' I found that I COULD fill a bunch of holes with the (on my live server) 2p a pop crafted rare OR just wait on a common SoS drop that would pretty much fill the hole. With full crafted rare on Test you see your resists in the 1.4k ish area, which leaves you the ability to actually use your jewelry as intended to up your resists, BUT - for the most part, drop gear is a far far cry cheaper and you can just carry two items of HIGHER resist for less than the price of one crafted. Sorry if thats kinda convoluted, but basically crafted is crap for even part time adventurers when it costs so much to make / get made vs a common 8g broker item that has better stats. IMHO thats wrong. Rare armor should be better than common drops. NOT legendary, NOT stuff from a 'hard for the average joe' area, but a COMMON drop. If it drops off a TT solo mob, my rare should be BETTER. PERIOD. Ya know?<div></div>

ChaosUndivided

06-08-2006, 03:52 AM

They should make all good Group Dropped Legendary No Trade and Lore. So people have to actually go out and get it. They should also implement a system where components from adventuring are needed to make nice items.

Crychtonn

06-08-2006, 04:20 AM

I agree with Khalen. I liked it back in T5 when they added the raid dropped crafting books and rares. To bad they screwed it up when DoF came out with that bugged named that flooded servers with thousands of trade skill rares. So many that they pulled them and never put in the crafting books <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> They could do similar things with special legendary receipts and raws coming off instance or contested named. They did put in a little of this with Nest but made most of the items junky.

TaleraRis

06-08-2006, 08:09 AM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>ChaosUndivided wrote:<div></div>They should make all good Group Dropped Legendary No Trade and Lore. So people have to actually go out and get it.They should also implement a system where components from adventuring are needed to make nice items.<hr></blockquote>Leaving decent gear again in the hands only of those who conform to a certain playstyle?<div></div>

Pins

06-08-2006, 08:58 AM

<blockquote><hr>TaleraRis wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>ChaosUndivided wrote:<div></div>They should make all good Group Dropped Legendary No Trade and Lore. So people have to actually go out and get it.They should also implement a system where components from adventuring are needed to make nice items.<hr></blockquote>Leaving decent gear again in the hands only of those who conform to a certain playstyle?<div></div><hr></blockquote>The playstyle that is playing the game? I mean, isn't that the purpose of getting better gear to play the game at a higher level allowing you to take on the harder encounters. I mean if you aren't playing the game to take on the super duper hard encounters, then why do you need the legendary gear that drops? The playstyle Khalen is mentioning is the one that is people who are PLAYING the game to get gear and better their in-game character, which isn't that the point of playing the game to be? To make your in-game character better through taking on hard encounters. Do you understand progression? That's what this game needs.

Peter Corbin

06-08-2006, 12:12 PM

Cobalt armor was truly awesome for my paladin until level 60 (when I joined a raiding guild) T7 rare plate armor that is intended for level 70 players isn't even as good as Cobalt. T7 rare crafted is a joke... hopefully T8 armor will make up for it. 'nuff said

Storm_Runner

06-08-2006, 06:59 PM

I always thought the progression of armor quality went something like this... vendor/mob trash w/ no stats or resist only -> common solo mob drop -> common crafted -> common quested -> common group mob drop -> named mob drop -> rare crafted -> HQ quested -> rare named/common raid dropped -> rare/contested raid mob dropped I didn't see anything wrong with this set up. I solo quite a bit and small group some. I don't raid yet. For me the best armor I could get would be rare crafted, HQ quested, and the occasional drop from a somewhat rare named. Usually a mix of this kind of stuff is what I was/am wearing. For my play style this was enough. If thats no longer going to be sufficient for my play style then I don't know what I'll do. Personally I think there should be a series of quests for each tier that will give you good mid range armor. Better than common crafted but not as good as rare crafted/HQ type stuff. A series of quests like Hammers in Zek would be enough for the casual player with the occasional rare imbued crafted chest and leg piece as an added boost. If rare crafted if going to have worse stats than common dropped armor then I don't see the point in having common or rare crafted armor anymore. Especially if it's not going to be good enough to let you survive.

ChaosUndivided

06-08-2006, 09:46 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TaleraRis wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ChaosUndivided wrote: They should make all good Group Dropped Legendary No Trade and Lore. So people have to actually go out and get it. They should also implement a system where components from adventuring are needed to make nice items. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Leaving decent gear again in the hands only of those who conform to a certain playstyle? <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> The playstyle that is playing the game? I mean, isn't that the purpose of getting better gear to play the game at a higher level allowing you to take on the harder encounters. I mean if you aren't playing the game to take on the super duper hard encounters, then why do you need the legendary gear that drops? The playstyle Khalen is mentioning is the one that is people who are PLAYING the game to get gear and better their in-game character, which isn't that the point of playing the game to be? To make your in-game character better through taking on hard encounters. Do you understand progression? That's what this game needs. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> What he said, Treasured and Crafted would still be buyable, but anything good you need to go out and earn.

Cynto

06-08-2006, 11:06 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ChaosUndivided wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TaleraRis wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ChaosUndivided wrote: They should make all good Group Dropped Legendary No Trade and Lore. So people have to actually go out and get it. They should also implement a system where components from adventuring are needed to make nice items. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Leaving decent gear again in the hands only of those who conform to a certain playstyle? <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> The playstyle that is playing the game? I mean, isn't that the purpose of getting better gear to play the game at a higher level allowing you to take on the harder encounters. I mean if you aren't playing the game to take on the super duper hard encounters, then why do you need the legendary gear that drops? The playstyle Khalen is mentioning is the one that is people who are PLAYING the game to get gear and better their in-game character, which isn't that the point of playing the game to be? To make your in-game character better through taking on hard encounters. Do you understand progression? That's what this game needs. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> What he said, Treasured and Crafted would still be buyable, but anything good you need to go out and earn. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> I've gotta agree with these two also, its not all that hard to go into group instances or regular dungeons like Sanctum to get Legendary drops that shame crafted gear. Its not like they suggested that only raid mobs drop stuff better than crafted.

TaleraRis

06-09-2006, 02:00 AM

So you don't think there should be a way for a solo player to earn those drops? <div></div>

Cynto

06-09-2006, 02:11 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TaleraRis wrote: So you don't think there should be a way for a solo player to earn those drops? <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> A way for solo players to earn the drops from group mobs without a group? No, not really. Should there be a way for people with only 50 harvesting skill to harvest rares off T7 nodes? Should a non raider be able to get his or her hands on Relic armor from Lab, or get the loot from Deathtoall? I can understand why you want to be able to access this stuff, and I think that some of it should be purchaseable, but honestly, the Legendary gear that drops from common named mobs in the Dungeons of KoS, or any other dungeon for that matter should require a group to obtain, IMHO. Heck, if you're level 70 you can go into SoS with 3 or 4 people and obtain this stuff pretty easily, so it is far from impossible for a casual player to get a lot of this stuff. Anyway, if you're just doing solo mobs then you shouldn't need Legendary gear to do it. Sure, it helps, but its not needed to access the content you're doing. Also, if you honestly believe that you should have access to all the armor in game without having to fight tough mobs or work with others to obtain it then perhaps you're playing the wrong genre of game. I'm a relatively casual player, and i've not had much trouble getting most of this stuff myself, so its not that hard. And as an armorer I'm just a bit peeved that gear that is far and away better than what I can make is easily obtainable by simply farming mobs for vendor loot in a much shorter period of time than it would take to harvest the rare to make one piece of what I can make.

ChaosUndivided

06-09-2006, 02:45 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TaleraRis wrote: So you don't think there should be a way for a solo player to earn those drops? <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> How is buying it off the broker earning it? Every playstyle no matter what it is (Raid, Solo, Group, Casual, hardcore) Should have to actually go out and get the items they want. It's a sad state of affairs when going to the broker nets you with better gear that actually playing the game.

Maroger

06-09-2006, 07:36 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ChaosUndivided wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TaleraRis wrote: So you don't think there should be a way for a solo player to earn those drops? <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> How is buying it off the broker earning it? Every playstyle no matter what it is (Raid, Solo, Group, Casual, hardcore) Should have to actually go out and get the items they want. It's a sad state of affairs when going to the broker nets you with better gear that actually playing the game. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>YOu have to earn the money to buy it -- I don't see a problem with people buying stuff. After all they sell Master spells and I have seen Fabled gear for sale. I have no problem with people buying stuff --- I don't have the same fear of players having gear they bought that you do!!

ChaosUndivided

06-09-2006, 09:09 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Maroger wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ChaosUndivided wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TaleraRis wrote: So you don't think there should be a way for a solo player to earn those drops? <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> How is buying it off the broker earning it? Every playstyle no matter what it is (Raid, Solo, Group, Casual, hardcore) Should have to actually go out and get the items they want. It's a sad state of affairs when going to the broker nets you with better gear that actually playing the game. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>YOu have to earn the money to buy it -- I don't see a problem with people buying stuff. After all they sell Master spells and I have seen Fabled gear for sale. I have no problem with people buying stuff --- I don't have the same fear of players having gear they bought that you do!! <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> It has nothing to do with not wanting people to have the stuff I have. It has everything to do with working for your rewards. Earning plat is ridiculously easy, as easy as mining rocks out of the ground and selling them. Look at the brokers these days, legendary weapons way way better than rare crafted is selling for 10-50gp you can literally equip your character top to bottom in group obtained legendary in a matter of minutes. Making it lore/no trade will prevent the mudflation and farming we see today, make people actually need to go out and defeat said encounters and it will help reduce the joke that is crafted armour.

TaleraRis

06-09-2006, 11:34 AM

I have to agree with Khalan. I want to earn what I have. I see earning what I have as questing for it or crafting it myself. Getting lucky on a drop in a group isn't earning it enough for my tastes and farming gold to buy it off the broker is the exact opposite of earning it, again, for my tastes. I like putting in effort to get things. I brought up the question of obtaining items to use in crafting from solo mobs because going out adventuring doesn't just include going out into a group. Do you feel that mixing crafting and adventuring should only be the realm of those who group? If so, why? <div></div>

Maroger

06-09-2006, 05:08 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ChaosUndivided wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE>It has nothing to do with not wanting people to have the stuff I have. It has everything to do with working for your rewards.</BLOCKQUOTE> Earning plat is ridiculously easy, as easy as mining rocks out of the ground and selling them. Look at the brokers these days, legendary weapons way way better than rare crafted is selling for 10-50gp you can literally equip your character top to bottom in group obtained legendary in a matter of minutes. Making it lore/no trade will prevent the mudflation and farming we see today, make people actually need to go out and defeat said encounters and it will help reduce the joke that is crafted armour. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Why do you care so much and work yourself into such a frenzy over people buying gear on the broker. It doesn't spoil my game and I fail to see why it is spoiling yours unless it is just insane jealousy. I mean I really don't care how people get their equipment - buy it or fight for it. This game accomodates different playstyle and if part of their playstyle includes buying gear it is not big deal. IT IS ONLY A GAME! Are you eaten with jealousy if people who earn a lot of money drive a bigger and better car then you do or have a bigger house? How you earn things varies by people. Even in a game it takes a lot of work to earn big quantities of plat! Crafted armor is only joke because of the developers -- they need to fix that problem!!

Kasandria

06-09-2006, 05:26 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Maroger wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ChaosUndivided wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE>It has nothing to do with not wanting people to have the stuff I have. It has everything to do with working for your rewards.</BLOCKQUOTE> Earning plat is ridiculously easy, as easy as mining rocks out of the ground and selling them. Look at the brokers these days, legendary weapons way way better than rare crafted is selling for 10-50gp you can literally equip your character top to bottom in group obtained legendary in a matter of minutes. Making it lore/no trade will prevent the mudflation and farming we see today, make people actually need to go out and defeat said encounters and it will help reduce the joke that is crafted armour. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Why do you care so much and work yourself into such a frenzy over people buying gear on the broker. It doesn't spoil my game and I fail to see why it is spoiling yours unless it is just insane jealousy. I mean I really don't care how people get their equipment - buy it or fight for it. This game accomodates different playstyle and if part of their playstyle includes buying gear it is not big deal. IT IS ONLY A GAME! Are you eaten with jealousy if people who earn a lot of money drive a bigger and better car then you do or have a bigger house? How you earn things varies by people. Even in a game it takes a lot of work to earn big quantities of plat! Crafted armor is only joke because of the developers -- they need to fix that problem!! <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> I agree with Maroger that everyone needs to stop worrying about what other players have and what other classes can do and go out and enjoy what you can get and what your class can do or consider rerolling. It's pure childishness. Just because one person can buy something (which they earned the plat to do) doesn't stop you from questing/adventuring to get it nor does it cheapen the effort you put into it.

GCT

06-09-2006, 05:33 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kasandria wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Maroger wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ChaosUndivided wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE>It has nothing to do with not wanting people to have the stuff I have. It has everything to do with working for your rewards.</BLOCKQUOTE> Earning plat is ridiculously easy, as easy as mining rocks out of the ground and selling them. Look at the brokers these days, legendary weapons way way better than rare crafted is selling for 10-50gp you can literally equip your character top to bottom in group obtained legendary in a matter of minutes. Making it lore/no trade will prevent the mudflation and farming we see today, make people actually need to go out and defeat said encounters and it will help reduce the joke that is crafted armour. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Why do you care so much and work yourself into such a frenzy over people buying gear on the broker. It doesn't spoil my game and I fail to see why it is spoiling yours unless it is just insane jealousy. I mean I really don't care how people get their equipment - buy it or fight for it. This game accomodates different playstyle and if part of their playstyle includes buying gear it is not big deal. IT IS ONLY A GAME! Are you eaten with jealousy if people who earn a lot of money drive a bigger and better car then you do or have a bigger house? How you earn things varies by people. Even in a game it takes a lot of work to earn big quantities of plat! Crafted armor is only joke because of the developers -- they need to fix that problem!! <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> I agree with Maroger that everyone needs to stop worrying about what other players have and what other classes can do and go out and enjoy what you can get and what your class can do or consider rerolling. It's pure childishness. Just because one person can buy something (which they earned the plat to do) doesn't stop you from questing/adventuring to get it nor does it cheapen the effort you put into it. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Thank you. Once this becomes a loot-based game like WoW, I'm out.

Cowdenic

06-09-2006, 05:42 PM

Well TBH the problem lies in multiple areas. Where do tradeskillers fit in? Armorers and Weaponsmiths specifically. What kind of gear should you need for your encounters? What should be the precedence for the gear? IMO I believe that Treasured should be the bottom, that should include drops from solo creatures and common crafted, the next tier should be heroic garbage mob drops, T hen heroic named drops (legendary) and rare crafted should be about equal but the problem here is I believe the Legendary dropped should have better procs and or 1 more resist than the crafted rare. Then you have your Fabled drops from Epic mobs and at the end of the spectrum should be the ultra rare crafted armor, i.e. items gained from raid drops and recipes from raid drops that make player crafted fabled. Master 2's and 3's Fabled crafted Armor and Fabled crafted weapons would be the realm of the ultra high end people. These items should be able to have a base model and then use stones (think like relic stones) that have different properties to personalize said armor and have it have so many slots. I think if there was more personalization to crafted armor so that people could request specifically what they want their armor and weapons to have in terms of stats and resists you would find people would be alot happier. Instead of a ring with 3 stats at +27 at t7, I could have a wis ring +54 and x amount of a resist or I could have a raw stat ring +16 to all 5 stats or whatever. Or we could just keep going with the current system and watch tradeskillers become obsolete except provisioners, sages, alchemists and jewelers. Gotta keep Ad3's and food rolling.

Rast

06-09-2006, 05:54 PM

Alot of the issue is in the scaling of the items... When you look at the difference between a common piece and a ledgendary piece, the difference is huge, and trying to balance to any 'level' of armor will either make it far too easy for someone who has higher or far too hard for someone who doesn't. But the problem (IMO) is not really fixable because it relates back to the whole design of the game in that they didn't build the system to be innately scaleable in difficulty. IOWs, they allowed their numbers to get out of hand, which is an unfortunately situation that happens in MMOs because they put the game around the obtaining of 'phat lewt' instead of the story, and to fix it, you would have to redesign the entire system from the ground up with a different mentality that you've seen in any MMO except for maybe CoH/CoV... It is a shame, but the higher the levels go, the more I believe crafted goods will be trivialized due to the gaps that are only getting wider as the levels go up (the gap between t1 common and ledgendary is minimal, while the gap at t7 has become huge). Eventually there will be no purpose for crafting in this game and that to me will be a very sad day <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Cynto

06-09-2006, 06:35 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> GCT wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kasandria wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Maroger wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ChaosUndivided wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE>It has nothing to do with not wanting people to have the stuff I have. It has everything to do with working for your rewards.</BLOCKQUOTE> Earning plat is ridiculously easy, as easy as mining rocks out of the ground and selling them. Look at the brokers these days, legendary weapons way way better than rare crafted is selling for 10-50gp you can literally equip your character top to bottom in group obtained legendary in a matter of minutes. Making it lore/no trade will prevent the mudflation and farming we see today, make people actually need to go out and defeat said encounters and it will help reduce the joke that is crafted armour. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Why do you care so much and work yourself into such a frenzy over people buying gear on the broker. It doesn't spoil my game and I fail to see why it is spoiling yours unless it is just insane jealousy. I mean I really don't care how people get their equipment - buy it or fight for it. This game accomodates different playstyle and if part of their playstyle includes buying gear it is not big deal. IT IS ONLY A GAME! Are you eaten with jealousy if people who earn a lot of money drive a bigger and better car then you do or have a bigger house? How you earn things varies by people. Even in a game it takes a lot of work to earn big quantities of plat! Crafted armor is only joke because of the developers -- they need to fix that problem!! <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> I agree with Maroger that everyone needs to stop worrying about what other players have and what other classes can do and go out and enjoy what you can get and what your class can do or consider rerolling. It's pure childishness. Just because one person can buy something (which they earned the plat to do) doesn't stop you from questing/adventuring to get it nor does it cheapen the effort you put into it. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Thank you. Once this becomes a loot-based game like WoW, I'm out. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Maroger, the reason we care is because of a little thing called "Mud-flation" its when the economy gets out of controll due to an imbalance in supply and demand. Any crafter can tell you that most of the items they make just get vendored because our items are so sub par now in comparison to dropped gear that it is not even funny. Why do I think they need to make it so that "Legendary" gear is no-drop or at least Lore? Because its friggn "legendary" armor! How "legendary" is it when I can go into a dungeon and see 4 or 5 pieces of it drop in 2 hours time? I wouldn't have a problem with it being sold on vendor if it weren't for the fact that these "legendary" items are so frigging common now that its actually harder to harvest a rare from a node than it is to get this "legendary" gear, and the items made from the harvested rare are total junk compaired to what mobs drop. If it is going to be this easy to get legendary drops from named mobs as it is in KoS, then they need to make it harder to put it on broker, because it is breaking the crafters. I know it varies from server to server, but when the highest AC BP in game right now can be purchased for 1.2pp (thats what it was selling for on broker at one point) and just to BUY a piece of Xegonite I have to spend 3 pp or so, then how am I supposed to compete? Then throw in the fact that this post started with "We were in Rare crafted Xegonite and got owned" and you can understand why as an Armorer i'm just a bit angry about this. As for "They just need to bring crafted up to par" thats not going to happen, just take a look at LU 24, they're NERFING Cobalt, not "fixing" Xegonite. So obviously they think Xegonite is where it should be. Just like Cobalt was the best in game for casual players in DoF, these legendary drops are the best in KoS, and crafted is junk. To Kasandria, this has nothing to do with "class envy" as you seemed to suggest in your comment. It has to do with balance, and right now there is none when considering the gear market. SOMETHING needs to bring it into balance, and if they intend to make dropped Legendary gear so frigging common, then they need to do something to slow the flow of it onto the broker at least, if not make it so you have to earn it. And no, i'm sorry but farming low level mobs for money to buy it does not constitute "earning" it in my book, because that is MUCH easier than harvesting a rare is in T7, and appearently since "picking at rocks" dosn't equal "earning" gear to the devs, why should farming low level mobs be equal to "earning" that gear? Finally, Relinn, if you HONESTLY believe that this game is not equipment/gear based, then you must be playing a different game than I am. Because the further you get into the game the more obvious it becomes. Even at level 20 when I came through the game it was obvious it was gear based, because without at least decent gear you can't do much of anything. Perhaps they've changed that since I went through, but I can assure you, at higher levels it is most definately gear based, and always has been.

Cuz

06-09-2006, 06:44 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ChaosUndivided wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TaleraRis wrote: So you don't think there should be a way for a solo player to earn those drops? <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> How is buying it off the broker earning it? Every playstyle no matter what it is (Raid, Solo, Group, Casual, hardcore) Should have to actually go out and get the items they want. It's a sad state of affairs when going to the broker nets you with better gear that actually playing the game. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> So can I tell my girlfriend that I'm not playing EQ2 when I'm crafting? That would be swell because she keeps thinking I "play" too much.

GCT

06-09-2006, 07:11 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cynto wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE>Finally, Relinn, if you HONESTLY believe that this game is not equipment/gear based, then you must be playing a different game than I am. Because the further you get into the game the more obvious it becomes. Even at level 20 when I came through the game it was obvious it was gear based, because without at least decent gear you can't do much of anything. Perhaps they've changed that since I went through, but I can assure you, at higher levels it is most definately gear based, and always has been.</BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Well, everything's relative, m'dear. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> In WoW, you can't do *anything* if you're in green armor. Right now in EQ2, my girl is in a full set of common crafted armor/weapons and is doing fine. Of course, I'm no raider. But, in this game, unlike in WoW, raiding is truly optional. As a Weaponcrafter and an Armorer, I am just as [Removed for Content] about these changes as you are. Why bother? Up to this point I was able to grind away TS levels so that I could outfit mine and my husband's characters. As I said, we're fine in common crafted right now, and my plan was, as we saved money, I would be able to make us stuff from rares and we'd still be going our merry way. Not to mention that I find EQ2's crafting to be fun and relaxing. Grinding finished products just doesn't have the same pull, but I could get over that. But... I guess that's not going to happen anymore, since I can't level crafting because nobody buys the stuff, and selling it on a vendor for fuel costs isn't going to cut it. 6/14/06 - The death of crafting.Message Edited by GCT on 06-09-2006 11:12 AM

Cynto

06-09-2006, 08:40 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jenoy wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ChaosUndivided wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TaleraRis wrote: So you don't think there should be a way for a solo player to earn those drops? <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> How is buying it off the broker earning it? Every playstyle no matter what it is (Raid, Solo, Group, Casual, hardcore) Should have to actually go out and get the items they want. It's a sad state of affairs when going to the broker nets you with better gear that actually playing the game. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> So can I tell my girlfriend that I'm not playing EQ2 when I'm crafting? That would be swell because she keeps thinking I "play" too much. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> He is not refering to buying crafted gear from the broker Jenoy, he is referring to buying Legendary mob dropped gear that would take a group to get from the broker. Buying stuff from the broker that is a mob drop is not "earning" the armor. (for lack of a better term.) I am not against buying gear from broker, I have bought one or two dropped pieces myself in the past, but I sure as heck don't think I "earned" it the same way someone that got it right from the mob did, though i've typically killed the mob that dropped the gear at least once, and just hadn't ever gotten the item I bought. My real problem is the extreme ease with with you can find "Legendary" gear on the broker, and I bet you that is Chaos' problem also. It trivializes the gear a person can craft when you can get much better stuff for far less money. (And that is not due to crafter greed, its due to the cost of rare harvests). In the end, I feel that people SHOULD be able to buy dropped stuff as well as crafted from the broker, but not at the rate they can now. Either they need to slow the flow of Legendary dropped gear from named heroics, or they need to make the gear no drop so that crafters have a shot in hell of selling their wares. Thats just my personal opinion though.

Galn

06-09-2006, 08:42 PM

<DIV>I've been worried about the imbalance between crafted and drop loot since the time Splitpaw came out. Before Splitpaw Scholars had a reason to make Apprentice IV and Adept III skills, Adept I and Master I drops were not that common, Now if you search for (adept I) on the broker you get thousands of items and Master I nets you a few hundred, and some of these are for less than 20g. As I levelled my Swashbuckler up through the 30's and 40's I was looking forward to wearing Ebon chain and Cobalt chain because I liked the stats and the look. Now that I"m level 52 I actually have no Apprentice IV skills, only a couple Adept III's because they arent available as drops (Bloodlines skill for one), I have purchased a couple Master I's that were affordable on the broker and the rest of my stuff is ALMOST as good as Cobalt Chain. I do have 2 hex dolls and 2 imbued rings, but other than that its all looted items I'm wearing. These had the best stats for me and were still affordable. My chest armor has +12's in its stats so I'm not going to spend 3 plat to get +14 in the same stats. So when it comes down to it I have 4 items I've purchased from a Jeweler, one from an Alchemist (poison) and 2 from a Tailor, literally everything else is looted items. This is not really the best way to support crafters in a game. If crafted items were more affordable and/or had stats to match the price I'd be wearing it, but with the economy like it is looted items are the way to go.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've levelled a weaponsmith to 28 and a Tailor to 23, I will probably level the tailor some more to make hex dolls but the weaponsmith will stay 28 forever, the market is flooded with loot so my crafted weapons will sit around and collect dust.</DIV>

Cynto

06-09-2006, 08:46 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> GCT wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cynto wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE>Finally, Relinn, if you HONESTLY believe that this game is not equipment/gear based, then you must be playing a different game than I am. Because the further you get into the game the more obvious it becomes. Even at level 20 when I came through the game it was obvious it was gear based, because without at least decent gear you can't do much of anything. Perhaps they've changed that since I went through, but I can assure you, at higher levels it is most definately gear based, and always has been.</BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Well, everything's relative, m'dear. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> In WoW, you can't do *anything* if you're in green armor. Right now in EQ2, my girl is in a full set of common crafted armor/weapons and is doing fine. Of course, I'm no raider. But, in this game, unlike in WoW, raiding is truly optional. As a Weaponcrafter and an Armorer, I am just as [Removed for Content] about these changes as you are. Why bother? Up to this point I was able to grind away TS levels so that I could outfit mine and my husband's characters. As I said, we're fine in common crafted right now, and my plan was, as we saved money, I would be able to make us stuff from rares and we'd still be going our merry way. Not to mention that I find EQ2's crafting to be fun and relaxing. Grinding finished products just doesn't have the same pull, but I could get over that. But... I guess that's not going to happen anymore, since I can't level crafting because nobody buys the stuff, and selling it on a vendor for fuel costs isn't going to cut it. 6/14/06 - The death of crafting. Message Edited by GCT on 06-09-2006 11:12 AM <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Heh, well, you're right, you CAN adventure in common crafted gear the same as you can in Legendary... up to about level 50, then it starts to suck... a lot. At least as a tank anyway. In DoF it starts to get really hard as a tank to perform your job with common crafted, though its still possible. In KoS, I don't think you can do much other than solo and outdoor mobs in common crafted, though I could be wrong. But from everything i've seen or heard about, it is rather difficult to do much of anything without at least dropped treasured from mobs (which is better than common crafted on average) or Rare crafted gear. (which sucks a lot of [Removed for Content], IMHO) I too lament the "death of crafting". It is going to suck a lot to try and level up a crafter in the new system, since its going to be just as mind numbing as it was with subs to those that hated crafting in the first place, its just gonna take a lot more harvests now. I do have to say that as a high level armorer though that it will be nice when i'm asked to make level 20 gear though, but they've essentially managed to gut the system to a point where it really will be a mindless grind.

Finora

06-09-2006, 10:20 PM

<DIV>Bingo Cynto.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My 70 armorer (lvl 29 berserker atm) is in level 20 AQ armor and self crafted non-rare and does just dandy. She'll do great with the feyiron in her bank as well. When you get to indium and adamantine is when the common armors really start to suck. I remember linking a piece of indium to the guild and having someone comment " Oh, that 's great armor...if you are level 30." And that really sums it up for t6/t7 common crafted. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And of course they are doing the same sort of thing to all the tiers with the crafting changes from what I've seen. I don't have a test armorer so I've only seen what others have shown me and been very disappointed with the commons. =(</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Subs were a pain when I wanted to make things fast, but if having subs would make our armor and weapons worth having, then by all means leave them in =(.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All my disappointment with gear aside, my betabuffed mystic solo'd just fine in the xegonite stuff, even though it is the standard xegonite not the wisdom oriented stuff. </DIV> <DIV> I wish they'd have made the beta buff armor for other levels the new style though instead of the old style, so we'd know how it REALLY works.</DIV>Message Edited by Calendri on 06-09-2006 02:23 PM

Maroger

06-09-2006, 10:58 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cynto wrote: Maroger, the reason we care is because of a little thing called "Mud-flation" its when the economy gets out of controll due to an imbalance in supply and demand. Any crafter can tell you that most of the items they make just get vendored because our items are so sub par now in comparison to dropped gear that it is not even funny. Why do I think they need to make it so that "Legendary" gear is no-drop or at least Lore? Because its friggn "legendary" armor! How "legendary" is it when I can go into a dungeon and see 4 or 5 pieces of it drop in 2 hours time? I wouldn't have a problem with it being sold on vendor if it weren't for the fact that these "legendary" items are so frigging common now that its actually harder to harvest a rare from a node than it is to get this "legendary" gear, and the items made from the harvested rare are total junk compaired to what mobs drop. If it is going to be this easy to get legendary drops from named mobs as it is in KoS, then they need to make it harder to put it on broker, because it is breaking the crafters. I know it varies from server to server, but when the highest AC BP in game right now can be purchased for 1.2pp (thats what it was selling for on broker at one point) and just to BUY a piece of Xegonite I have to spend 3 pp or so, then how am I supposed to compete? Then throw in the fact that this post started with "We were in Rare crafted Xegonite and got owned" and you can understand why as an Armorer i'm just a bit angry about this. As for "They just need to bring crafted up to par" thats not going to happen, just take a look at LU 24, they're NERFING Cobalt, not "fixing" Xegonite. So obviously they think Xegonite is where it should be. Just like Cobalt was the best in game for casual players in DoF, these legendary drops are the best in KoS, and crafted is junk. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Who is this WE you are talking about? Are there more neurotics obsessed with armor than yourself. No I am sorry I don't understand how someone buying legendary from a broker devalues your armor. IT IS THE SAME ARMOR. People ( maybe you do) don't run around in this game asking how another player got their armor. I only see this issue come up when the raiding crowd gets frightened that a non-raider might get the same armor they have. What is breaking the crafters is not legendray armor being sold on the broker, it is the developers NERFING crafting. It used to be if you made a crafted item from a rare, the output was labeled legendary -- they need to go back to that scheme and scrap the new one they have. If the best armor in the game is available from a broker -- GREAT!! I am all for that. I don't value another person in the game by how they acquired their armor. Actually I generally look down on people who become obsessed with raiding and the lewt acquired from raiding as they have forgotten that this is a game!

Cynto

06-10-2006, 12:27 AM

You don't seem to understand Maroger, that they are going through and nerfing everything that came before Xegonite. They do not want crafted to be better than pretty much everything other than common crafted or stuff that drops off solo mobs. You're right, this is a game, and a large part of the fun in this game to at least a few people, is in crafting and making stuff that people actually want. Most people do not want crafted, and the Devs are not gonna suddenly turn around after several months of devaluing crafted stuff and suddenly make it all good again. They obviously want people to have to adventure for their stuff, and thats fine, but buying it off the broker is not adventuring. Again, I don't mind people buying stuff from broker, its their game, what I do mind is when there are 10 chest pieces that blow away what I can make and selling for 1/4th the price that I can reasonably afford to charge if I were to buy the rare, make the armor and try to sell it again on broker. There are at least two other people on this thread that agree with me in part at least, so that is the "we". I've also seen many crafters who are also upset with the way things are going in reguards to dropped/crafted armor, so they too are in the "we" category. I am not "obsessed" I am tired of them making the game less fun for me to play. I don't care about how other people get their stuff, however I do care that there is suddenly very little point to my crafting profession because of the way they have done the itemization in T7. Also, I don't think many would agree that "the best armor" being available on the broker is "great". If thats the case, what is the drive in playing? Sure, some people play just to play, but most people get their enjoyment out of questing for their gear, or adventuring for it. You honestly want to be able to buy everything from the broker? Why not just let everyone betabuff up to level 70 if they want then? Seriously, where does the acomplishment of winning battles and getting that drop go when timmy the level 5 with 500 pp can just go buy it? (Yes i know thats exaggerated, but you get the point) Also, I have lost count of the number of times i've been asked where i got this or that piece of gear. Its far more common than you think. I don't assume that everyone cares about gear, lots don't, but if you don't care about gear then why do you care if you can't buy it off the broker? If you don't care about the gear then let those that do go through the game and earn it. I'm not saying that they should have to raid for it, but asking someone to spend an hour or two adventuring in a dungeon or doing a quest to earn the really good armor isn't too much to ask I don't think. I mean, the game IS called EverQUEST after all isn't it?

Rast

06-10-2006, 12:39 AM

Being an armor, I am often disappointed in the quality of the goods I can make... I am an armorer and my fighter wore common drop stuff in his thirties because it was better than anything none rare I could make. I'm not talking able the Silvelin (or what ever it is called) I'm talking about the junk Maruder stuff. It is no wonder I sold so little feyiron stuff, I could sell it to a vendor for more than I could broker it for, because there was a common drop that was free to obtain if you spent even a little bit of time in the zone. Now all the crafted stuff is going to be WORSE. How is this even close to being a step in the right direction for crafters? The common drops now will compete with the RARE crafted for quality, only it costs a fortune (due to having to buy the rares) to make the armor while the adventures have no overhead in theirs at all. Now, I'm against no drop goods because to me it doesn't make sense to me. Unless it is something that is cursed to bind to you, then you should be able to take it off and someone else use it. A sword doesn't become worthless to another because I've wielded it. A pair of gloves either. But maybe if the game dropped more 'vendor trash' and less usable stuff, then it would be ok. It would open up a market for the crafters and to protect the world from us 'greedy crafters' (*laughs*) have the vendor versions all be shaped versions identical to what we could make as crafters. That gives us all a benchmark for pricing AND provides an alternative to dealing with another player if you chose not to. Everyone would 'earn' their armor because they would get it the same way. Then even better, allow that vendor trash to be sold to crafters and maybe with enough of them, they could actually fix the item or craft a new one out of it. This could be done for all professions but provisioner (the skill makers would get pages from ancient notes or somethign that could be used). Now you have a world that works both ways, crafters that are dependant upon the adventurers and andventurers who are dependant upon crafters.

GCT

06-10-2006, 12:44 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raston wrote: Being an armor, I am often disappointed in the quality of the goods I can make... I am an armorer and my fighter wore common drop stuff in his thirties because it was better than anything none rare I could make. I'm not talking able the Silvelin (or what ever it is called) I'm talking about the junk Maruder stuff. It is no wonder I sold so little feyiron stuff, I could sell it to a vendor for more than I could broker it for, because there was a common drop that was free to obtain if you spent even a little bit of time in the zone. Now all the crafted stuff is going to be WORSE. How is this even close to being a step in the right direction for crafters? The common drops now will compete with the RARE crafted for quality, only it costs a fortune (due to having to buy the rares) to make the armor while the adventures have no overhead in theirs at all. Now, I'm against no drop goods because to me it doesn't make sense to me. Unless it is something that is cursed to bind to you, then you should be able to take it off and someone else use it. A sword doesn't become worthless to another because I've wielded it. A pair of gloves either. But maybe if the game dropped more 'vendor trash' and less usable stuff, then it would be ok. It would open up a market for the crafters and to protect the world from us 'greedy crafters' (*laughs*) have the vendor versions all be shaped versions identical to what we could make as crafters. That gives us all a benchmark for pricing AND provides an alternative to dealing with another player if you chose not to. Everyone would 'earn' their armor because they would get it the same way. Then even better, allow that vendor trash to be sold to crafters and maybe with enough of them, they could actually fix the item or craft a new one out of it. This could be done for all professions but provisioner (the skill makers would get pages from ancient notes or somethign that could be used). Now you have a world that works both ways, crafters that are dependant upon the adventurers and andventurers who are dependant upon crafters. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Great ideas! Really, the last sentence sums it up. Some crafters *cough*Carpenters*cough* actually have people dependent on them for furniture. It's only the ones who make adventuring gear who are screwed. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Tallika_Runwithbears

06-10-2006, 01:51 AM

<div><blockquote><hr>GCT wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Raston wrote: <div></div> Being an armor, I am often disappointed in the quality of the goods I can make... I am an armorer and my fighter wore common drop stuff in his thirties because it was better than anything none rare I could make. I'm not talking able the Silvelin (or what ever it is called) I'm talking about the junk Maruder stuff. It is no wonder I sold so little feyiron stuff, I could sell it to a vendor for more than I could broker it for, because there was a common drop that was free to obtain if you spent even a little bit of time in the zone. Now all the crafted stuff is going to be WORSE. How is this even close to being a step in the right direction for crafters? The common drops now will compete with the RARE crafted for quality, only it costs a fortune (due to having to buy the rares) to make the armor while the adventures have no overhead in theirs at all. Now, I'm against no drop goods because to me it doesn't make sense to me. Unless it is something that is cursed to bind to you, then you should be able to take it off and someone else use it. A sword doesn't become worthless to another because I've wielded it. A pair of gloves either. But maybe if the game dropped more 'vendor trash' and less usable stuff, then it would be ok. It would open up a market for the crafters and to protect the world from us 'greedy crafters' (*laughs*) have the vendor versions all be shaped versions identical to what we could make as crafters. That gives us all a benchmark for pricing AND provides an alternative to dealing with another player if you chose not to. Everyone would 'earn' their armor because they would get it the same way. Then even better, allow that vendor trash to be sold to crafters and maybe with enough of them, they could actually fix the item or craft a new one out of it. This could be done for all professions but provisioner (the skill makers would get pages from ancient notes or somethign that could be used). Now you have a world that works both ways, crafters that are dependant upon the adventurers and andventurers who are dependant upon crafters. <hr> </blockquote> Great ideas! Really, the last sentence sums it up. Some crafters *cough*Carpenters*cough* actually have people dependent on them for furniture. It's only the ones who make adventuring gear who are screwed. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><hr></blockquote>i noticed alot of furniture for rewards in this AP.</div>

CoLD MeTaL

06-10-2006, 01:52 AM

Well guys it is very very apparent from Dev statements, and these changes that SOE intends to kill off tradeskilling.you can, go out loud, if u want to, but we are all going out.Once the tradeskill community is devalued, then people will stop buying, then people will stop tradeskilling, then when it gets down to a couple hundred (thousand?) tradeskillers, they will just make it go away completely. and who will listen to those few diehards anyway?i like to make stuff people can use, that is gone with Live Nerf 24. So for me, it is the death of tradeskills.Consumables, adept 3's, and storage being the only ones that aren't currently completely dead.When the gear my tailor crafts for mages HAS NO INT on it, practically all the mob drops are better. LOL

RoryBradwarden

06-10-2006, 03:11 AM

<DIV>Maybe the new tradeskill adornments will make the crafted crap much better? We can only hope that will be the case ,,,,, I fear armorers and weaponsmiths will suffer greatly till then.</DIV>

Cynto

06-10-2006, 03:38 AM

Even if that is the case Rory, that makes me just a bit frustrated, and is kinda dumb. (not saying your suggestion is, honestly I wouldn't put that past the devs) It just seems to me, that if that happens, then I can officially say the devs have absolutely no clue as to what they're doing with the itemization because when you've got to nerf all the gear and abilities before an expac, and then make the players work to get back to where they were BEFORE the expac hit, then you've done a really bad job. Nothing frustrates people more than having abilities taken away from them to only have to "earn" them back with the new expac. That kind of coding is the epitome of a "time sink".

Maroger

06-10-2006, 03:46 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cynto wrote: Also, I have lost count of the number of times i've been asked where i got this or that piece of gear. Its far more common than you think. I don't assume that everyone cares about gear, lots don't, but if you don't care about gear then why do you care if you can't buy it off the broker? If you don't care about the gear then let those that do go through the game and earn it. I'm not saying that they should have to raid for it, but asking someone to spend an hour or two adventuring in a dungeon or doing a quest to earn the really good armor isn't too much to ask I don't think. I mean, the game IS called EverQUEST after all isn't it? <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> I care about the elitist few who want to dictate what can be sold on a broker and what choices I have to buy from a broker. I believe in the FREE MARKET -- and that includes the sale of ALL GEAR THAT IS AVAILABLE IN THE GAME. I am totally against NO DROP items. I only wish that crafted gear could be raised up to the level it was in UO -- but SOE has never really liked Tradeskilling!Message Edited by Maroger on 06-09-2006 07:50 PM

Cynto

06-10-2006, 03:59 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Maroger wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cynto wrote: Also, I have lost count of the number of times i've been asked where i got this or that piece of gear. Its far more common than you think. I don't assume that everyone cares about gear, lots don't, but if you don't care about gear then why do you care if you can't buy it off the broker? If you don't care about the gear then let those that do go through the game and earn it. I'm not saying that they should have to raid for it, but asking someone to spend an hour or two adventuring in a dungeon or doing a quest to earn the really good armor isn't too much to ask I don't think. I mean, the game IS called EverQUEST after all isn't it? <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> I care about the elitist few who want to dictate what can be sold on a broker and what choices I have to buy from a broker. I believe in the FREE MARKET -- and that includes the sale of ALL GEAR THAT IS AVAILABLE IN THE GAME. I am totally against NO DROP items. I only wish that crafted gear could be raised up to the level it was in UO -- but SOE has never really liked Tradeskilling! Message Edited by Maroger on 06-09-2006 07:50 PM <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Well, i'm not one of those few that really cares if you bought it or got it as a drop. What i DO care about however is that there is so much dropped stuff that is cheaper than even the rare needed to make my "good" armor, that I honestly can't sell my stuff with any sort of consistancy. Personally I would be happy if they just made "Legendary" more like its namesake and not so [Removed for Content] commonplace that I can't compete with it. In the end, I just want to get the feeling of accomplisment out of my tradecraft again by having people actually excited to wear my armor, but I suppose that will never happen again, cause T6 was just such a "horrible mistake" in letting crafters actually make good stuff for people. (please note the sarcasm)

Maroger

06-10-2006, 06:35 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cynto wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Maroger wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cynto wrote: Also, I have lost count of the number of times i've been asked where i got this or that piece of gear. Its far more common than you think. I don't assume that everyone cares about gear, lots don't, but if you don't care about gear then why do you care if you can't buy it off the broker? If you don't care about the gear then let those that do go through the game and earn it. I'm not saying that they should have to raid for it, but asking someone to spend an hour or two adventuring in a dungeon or doing a quest to earn the really good armor isn't too much to ask I don't think. I mean, the game IS called EverQUEST after all isn't it? <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> I care about the elitist few who want to dictate what can be sold on a broker and what choices I have to buy from a broker. I believe in the FREE MARKET -- and that includes the sale of ALL GEAR THAT IS AVAILABLE IN THE GAME. I am totally against NO DROP items. I only wish that crafted gear could be raised up to the level it was in UO -- but SOE has never really liked Tradeskilling! Message Edited by Maroger on 06-09-2006 07:50 PM <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Well, i'm not one of those few that really cares if you bought it or got it as a drop. What i DO care about however is that there is so much dropped stuff that is cheaper than even the rare needed to make my "good" armor, that I honestly can't sell my stuff with any sort of consistancy. Personally I would be happy if they just made "Legendary" more like its namesake and not so [Removed for Content] commonplace that I can't compete with it. In the end, I just want to get the feeling of accomplisment out of my tradecraft again by having people actually excited to wear my armor, but I suppose that will never happen again, cause T6 was just such a "horrible mistake" in letting crafters actually make good stuff for people. (please note the sarcasm) <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Well personally I agree with you in so far as I would like our tradeskill items to be more worthwhile and sellable. I have tons of alts so they are active in every single tradeskill - but the only stuff I broker is Adept III, and containers, and house furniture. You are right there is no market for anything else. I make some stuff for my toons, but I make more money dumping it on an NPC vendor than I do selling it on a broker.

schizmark

06-10-2006, 08:12 PM

GCT wrote: But, in this game, unlike in WoW, raiding is truly optional........What ARE are you smoking??? Raiding is only optional if you want to make some coin crafting and go on mediocre quests for middling finds. Raiding is why you see all those masters up for sale on your broker or (if you're on the Bazaar or Vox) the exchange. There are whole guilds who do nothing but raid, day in and day out. It's something I wouldn't do because it's more like going to work: A whole bunch of people get together to do a job, take forever deciding how to do it, wait for the laggers, do the job for maybe five minutes, then pass out the stuff to all the folks with seniority (or their friends) - while I get squat for waiting for an hour for them to get their act together. Please, tell me how optional it is again. I can't go many of the zones in DoF or KoS because everything's heroic, and anything heroic that isn't green (and subsequently out of achievement point and decent loot range) would skin me (thanks to the last big nerf bomb SOE dropped) because I don't have a hotbar full of master spells and a body loaded with fabled armor. I really like this game, but it seems sometimes like the developers are making great strides so that I won't. All I enjoy right now is crafting, because at least with that I may earn enough coin to buy some decent spells. Now that's getting blown away too. Not cool.

GCT

06-10-2006, 11:23 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> schizmark wrote: GCT wrote: But, in this game, unlike in WoW, raiding is truly optional........What ARE are you smoking??? Raiding is only optional if you want to make some coin crafting and go on mediocre quests for middling finds. Raiding is why you see all those masters up for sale on your broker or (if you're on the Bazaar or Vox) the exchange. There are whole guilds who do nothing but raid, day in and day out. It's something I wouldn't do because it's more like going to work: A whole bunch of people get together to do a job, take forever deciding how to do it, wait for the laggers, do the job for maybe five minutes, then pass out the stuff to all the folks with seniority (or their friends) - while I get squat for waiting for an hour for them to get their act together. Please, tell me how optional it is again. I can't go many of the zones in DoF or KoS because everything's heroic, and anything heroic that isn't green (and subsequently out of achievement point and decent loot range) would skin me (thanks to the last big nerf bomb SOE dropped) because I don't have a hotbar full of master spells and a body loaded with fabled armor. I really like this game, but it seems sometimes like the developers are making great strides so that I won't. All I enjoy right now is crafting, because at least with that I may earn enough coin to buy some decent spells. Now that's getting blown away too. Not cool. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Well, I'm only level 24, since I enjoy crafting more than adventuring. So I really wouldn't know about the end game. I did some looking around on other forums, though, before I bought the game to find out if this game was just like WoW at the end. Many people said it wasn't. So, if I get to be that level and I find that what you're saying is indeed the case, SOE will be two accounts short.

TaleraRis

06-10-2006, 11:48 PM

Actually, raiding isn't why you see those Masters. It's the drop rate that's been improved in grouping areas. <div></div>

Zmobie

06-12-2006, 09:23 PM

At least crafting takes effort from someone.Not really.It takes about 5 minutes of playing "click the matching icon", and some fuel.--Plague

Rast

06-12-2006, 09:37 PM

Zmobile, I seriously doubt you could make a piece of chainmail in 5 minutes, I believe the easiest piece easily 6 combines without the worts (1 bar, 1 ring, 1 yarn, 1 padding, 1 paper, 1 pattern) add in the extra padding many needed and the worts with the harvesting, it would take signifiantly longer than 5 minutes... You are looking at 8-10 minutes for the sub combines alone (including worts) and that is if you re extremely effecient and are working in Qeynos (ie, don't have to run from top to bottom in that dungeon they call a crafting instance in Freeport) or in your own room with all the stations and fuel available to you. Add in harvesting in some place like t5 and it becomes even longer a time to finish... And even then, many of the chain mail pieces require more padding and some require a harness which adds between 2 and 8 more combines). The current system does take a little bit of work and some planning (if you are making several sets of chain, you can use the economics of scale to do stacks of pieces at one time instead of enough to make one piece at a time for example) Unfortunately after this nerf, that won't be the case and it will be 1-3 minutes to make any piece in the game as long as you have preharvested your mats. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> No planning, no ability to work in scale... Just harvest, craft, vendor <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Zmobie

06-12-2006, 10:18 PM

Then even better, allow that vendor trash to be sold to crafters and maybe with enough of them, they could actually fix the item or craft a new one out of it. This could be done for all professions but provisioner (the skill makers would get pages from ancient notes or somethign that could be used). Now you have a world that works both ways, crafters that are dependant upon the adventurers and andventurers who are dependant upon crafters.Yuck.As an adventurer, I have absolutely NO urge to be dependant on crafters, whether they are dependant on me or not.I'd prefer everything I wear to be something dropped by a mob I killed, rather than paying some crafter a ton of cash to click a couple buttons.--Plague

Rast

06-12-2006, 10:22 PM

:rolls eyes: And there my crafting friends is the root of the problem... people too dang gone stubborn to wear gear that requires something other than instant gratification <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Message Edited by Raston on 06-12-2006 11:22 AM

Zmobie

06-12-2006, 10:29 PM

Ok, then a half-hour of playing click the matching icon, and some fuel. Doesn't change my opinion. I fail to see why it's "unfortunate" that it will only take 3 minutes to craft an item.Best change to happen to tradeskilling, ever.--Plague

Zmobie

06-12-2006, 10:33 PM

No, I wear the best gear I can find, crafted or dropped.I prefer dropped, that dropped from a mob I killed.I *hate* paying to wear something some other person made. There is no "instant" about it, at best I might get it the next day. And then, I have absolutely no feeling of accomplishment to getting the item, that all went to the crafter, along with my money. Win-win for crafter, lose-lose for me.I'd be perfectly happy if every drop in the game was no-trade and gear crafting was eliminated entirely.--Plague

Cynto

06-12-2006, 10:36 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zmobie wrote: Then even better, allow that vendor trash to be sold to crafters and maybe with enough of them, they could actually fix the item or craft a new one out of it. This could be done for all professions but provisioner (the skill makers would get pages from ancient notes or somethign that could be used). Now you have a world that works both ways, crafters that are dependant upon the adventurers and andventurers who are dependant upon crafters. Yuck. As an adventurer, I have absolutely NO urge to be dependant on crafters, whether they are dependant on me or not. I'd prefer everything I wear to be something dropped by a mob I killed, rather than paying some crafter a ton of cash to click a couple buttons. --Plague <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Plague, you DO realize that anything you wear that is mob dropped just requires a few button presses to get right? Sure, you might have to get 3 friends to go with you to do it, but all you are doing is clicking 4 or 5 buttons repeatedly till it dies. And don't even try and tell me that dungeon adventuring requires more effort or know how than knowing which buttons to push and when to push them, which, surpisingly, is very similar to crafting, imagine that! The fact remains, that unless you only get your gear from raid mobs, all you and your friends in a dungeon are doing is spamming buttons till a mob dies. Adventuring does not require much more thought than "taunt, taunt, smash, taunt, heal, smash, stab, stab..." etc. and if you believe otherwise then you must be playing a different game from myself. Either way, its the same interface, and about the same number of buttons, the only difference is that instead of hunting mobs, crafters search for nodes to harvest in mob infested areas, not all that much of a difference if you ask me.

Cynto

06-12-2006, 10:42 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zmobie wrote: No, I wear the best gear I can find, crafted or dropped. I prefer dropped, that dropped from a mob I killed. I *hate* paying to wear something some other person made. There is no "instant" about it, at best I might get it the next day. And then, I have absolutely no feeling of accomplishment to getting the item, that all went to the crafter, along with my money. Win-win for crafter, lose-lose for me. I'd be perfectly happy if every drop in the game was no-trade and gear crafting was eliminated entirely. --Plague <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Then you my friend do not pick good crafters. As an Armorer I have ingredients all made up, so when I get an order it takes me 30 min at most to pop out the new item, because I did the hour and a half of sub making ahead of time. And, while YOU may not get any "gratification" out of having something made, the player that made it does. For most crafters they actually *gasp!* ENJOY CRAFTING. And most are not in fact out to do it for money. Sure, the money is a nice bonus, but honestly I can make far more money farming Sanctum of the Scaleborn for cash drops than I ever could crafting armor, there is not contest between the two. I'm sorry you see having people craft you stuff as "lose-lose" for yourself, thats kinda sad really, but you're entitled to that feeling, however, if you got the rare off a mob you killed, isn't that really close to getting an armor drop?

Damaan

06-13-2006, 12:03 AM

Krieg

06-13-2006, 12:52 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zmobie wrote: No, I wear the best gear I can find, crafted or dropped. I prefer dropped, that dropped from a mob I killed. I *hate* paying to wear something some other person made. There is no "instant" about it, at best I might get it the next day. And then, I have absolutely no feeling of accomplishment to getting the item, that all went to the crafter, along with my money. Win-win for crafter, lose-lose for me. I'd be perfectly happy if every drop in the game was no-trade and gear crafting was eliminated entirely. --Plague <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> I'd hate to be a crafter in this guy's guild. I'd know exactly how I stand - dirt.

schizmark

06-13-2006, 01:24 AM

<DIV>Zmobie/Plague/whoever you are wrote: No, I wear the best gear I can find, crafted or dropped. I prefer dropped, that dropped from a mob I killed. I *hate* paying to wear something some other person made. There is no "instant" about it, at best I might get it the next day. And then, I have absolutely no feeling of accomplishment to getting the item, that all went to the crafter, along with my money. Win-win for crafter, lose-lose for me. I'd be perfectly happy if every drop in the game was no-trade and gear crafting was eliminated entirely. __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____________________</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Uh, excuse me; but are you talking about money while the rest of us are talking about coin? No [Removed for Content]' wonder you can't stand what other people make! Dude, if that's the case, you have NO room to moan. If I could afford to spend hard-earned dough on toon stuff I'd have the buffest paladin around. Wow. I'm sorry if I misunderstood you (and GOD I HOPE I DID), because I've never waited more than a few seconds for anything I paid coin to a vendor for.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>By they way, how dare you be so petty and small. You may like the idea of just killing everything in sight and criticizing everyone who doesn't, but some people like to put some effort into what they get. Having the patience to grind through all of that 'click the matching icon' you belittle (obviously never having even attempted beyond perhaps level six) takes a great deal more mental 'effort' than hoping your buddy in the raid party remembers to heal you.</DIV>

Zmobie

06-13-2006, 01:50 AM

<blockquote><hr>Cynto wrote: Plague, you DO realize that anything you wear that is mob dropped just requires a few button presses to get right? <hr></blockquote>The difference is, *I* "press the buttons", and get the resulting drop. With tradeskilled gear, my entire process is mailing coin to some tradeskiller.Woooo, thrilling.--Plague

Cynto

06-13-2006, 01:53 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zmobie wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Cynto wrote: Plague, you DO realize that anything you wear that is mob dropped just requires a few button presses to get right? <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> The difference is, *I* "press the buttons", and get the resulting drop. With tradeskilled gear, my entire process is mailing coin to some tradeskiller. Woooo, thrilling. --Plague <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> The point is, you ALSO press the buttons to obtain the rare the crafter makes into the item you use, whether it is harvested from a node that you have to clear mobs to harvest, or you get the rare the crafter uses from a mob drop that you ALSO pressed the buttons to kill. Unless of course your rare materials just appear in your inventory?

Zmobie

06-13-2006, 01:58 AM

And, while YOU may not get any "gratification" out of having something made, the player that made it does. For most crafters they actually *gasp!* ENJOY CRAFTING. And most are not in fact out to do it for money. Sure, the money is a nice bonus, but honestly I can make far more money farming Sanctum of the Scaleborn for cash drops than I ever could crafting armor, there is not contest between the two.I have no problem with crafters who enjoy crafting for it's own sake. It's when the system is set up in such a way that adventurers HAVE to buy their gear from them, because it's the best non-raid gear available, that I have a problem.I can see how a crafter would love that. They get work, they get money, they get the joy of cration. What do I get? I get to farm cash to pay some other player to craft something. I don't find that fun at all.If you really enjoy crafting for the crafting, and not for the money, then the fact that armor (or whatever) is being changed to be about as good as common dropped items shouldn't bug you. It's not changing the thing you enjoy, it's just changing how much adventurers want what you produce. And since you don't care about money, that shouldn't matter, right?--Plague

Zmobie

06-13-2006, 02:04 AM

The point is, you ALSO press the buttons to obtain the rare the crafter makes into the item you use, whether it is harvested from a node that you have to clear mobs to harvest, or you get the rare the crafter uses from a mob drop that you ALSO pressed the buttons to kill. Unless of course your rare materials just appear in your inventory?I get that both things involve pressing buttons. Let me speak slowly for you: I enjoy killing a mob, and looting it's chest, and finding something I can use.I do not enjoy clicking on the mail box, sending money to someone, and having them mail me an item.Clear enough?I'm sorry your cash cow is slowly being eroded. Hopefully soon it will be removed entirely.--Plague

Lydiae

06-13-2006, 02:09 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zmobie wrote: And, while YOU may not get any "gratification" out of having something made, the player that made it does. For most crafters they actually *gasp!* ENJOY CRAFTING. And most are not in fact out to do it for money. Sure, the money is a nice bonus, but honestly I can make far more money farming Sanctum of the Scaleborn for cash drops than I ever could crafting armor, there is not contest between the two. I have no problem with crafters who enjoy crafting for it's own sake. It's when the system is set up in such a way that adventurers HAVE to buy their gear from them, because it's the best non-raid gear available, that I have a problem. I can see how a crafter would love that. They get work, they get money, they get the joy of cration. What do I get? I get to farm cash to pay some other player to craft something. I don't find that fun at all. If you really enjoy crafting for the crafting, and not for the money, then the fact that armor (or whatever) is being changed to be about as good as common dropped items shouldn't bug you. It's not changing the thing you enjoy, it's just changing how much adventurers want what you produce. And since you don't care about money, that shouldn't matter, right? --Plague <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Sure. And to be fair, 99.9% of the MoB's you kill adventuring should drop nothing. Like 99.9% of the gear we make to level is worth nothing to other players. Well, I guess to be fair you could get enough to cover your actual costs.

Zmobie

06-13-2006, 02:13 AM

Uh, excuse me; but are you talking about money while the rest of us are talking about coin? No [Removed for Content]' wonder you can't stand what other people make! Dude, if that's the case, you have NO room to moan. If I could afford to spend hard-earned dough on toon stuff I'd have the buffest paladin around. Wow. I'm sorry if I misunderstood you (and GOD I HOPE I DID), because I've never waited more than a few seconds for anything I paid coin to a vendor for.Yes, you misunderstood me. I think people who pay RL money for VR objects are pretty sad. By they way, how dare you be so petty and small. You may like the idea of just killing everything in sight and criticizing everyone who doesn't, but some people like to put some effort into what they get. Having the patience to grind through all of that 'click the matching icon' you belittle (obviously never having even attempted beyond perhaps level six) takes a great deal more mental 'effort' than hoping your buddy in the raid party remembers to heal you.Nope. Hate to burst your bubble, but I'm one of the few T7 sages on my server. I know exactly how much effort that went into it: lots of pot, music in the background, and being massively bored for hours at a time playing "click the matching icon". The same applied for my (lower level) armorer, alchemist, and jeweler on LDL.Again, I have no problem with making TSing a rewarding, interesting, challenging alternate method of advancing one's chracter. I have a problem when part of that is making it so adventurers are required to buy their gear from the tradeskillers. The two paths should be completely seperate. Let tradeskillers handle optional gear like furniture, let drops handle essential gear like armor.--PlagueMessage Edited by Zmobie on 06-12-2006 03:14 PM

Lydiae

06-13-2006, 02:14 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zmobie wrote: The point is, you ALSO press the buttons to obtain the rare the crafter makes into the item you use, whether it is harvested from a node that you have to clear mobs to harvest, or you get the rare the crafter uses from a mob drop that you ALSO pressed the buttons to kill. Unless of course your rare materials just appear in your inventory? I get that both things involve pressing buttons. Let me speak slowly for you: I enjoy killing a mob, and looting it's chest, and finding something I can use. So kill things, take their stuff, sell it so you can... <snip>click on the mail box, sending money to someone, and having them mail me an item. The process is the same whether you kill until you get a drop or kill until you have the coin to buy something. I'm sorry your cash cow is slowly being eroded. Hopefully soon it will be removed entirely. LOL. You obviously don't craft, because I can easily get more money adventuring than I can crafting. You shouldn't talk about things you know nothing about... --Plague <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>

Amataelia

06-13-2006, 02:51 AM

<blockquote><hr>Zmobie wrote:Uh, excuse me; but are you talking about money while the rest of us are talking about coin? No [Removed for Content]' wonder you can't stand what other people make! Dude, if that's the case, you have NO room to moan. If I could afford to spend hard-earned dough on toon stuff I'd have the buffest paladin around. Wow. I'm sorry if I misunderstood you (and GOD I HOPE I DID), because I've never waited more than a few seconds for anything I paid coin to a vendor for.Yes, you misunderstood me. I think people who pay RL money for VR objects are pretty sad. By they way, how dare you be so petty and small. You may like the idea of just killing everything in sight and criticizing everyone who doesn't, but some people like to put some effort into what they get. Having the patience to grind through all of that 'click the matching icon' you belittle (obviously never having even attempted beyond perhaps level six) takes a great deal more mental 'effort' than hoping your buddy in the raid party remembers to heal you.Nope. Hate to burst your bubble, but I'm one of the few T7 sages on my server. I know exactly how much effort that went into it: lots of pot, music in the background, and being massively bored for hours at a time playing "click the matching icon". The same applied for my (lower level) armorer, alchemist, and jeweler on LDL.Again, I have no problem with making TSing a rewarding, interesting, challenging alternate method of advancing one's chracter. I have a problem when part of that is making it so adventurers are required to buy their gear from the tradeskillers. The two paths should be completely seperate. Let tradeskillers handle optional gear like furniture, let drops handle essential gear like armor.--PlagueMessage Edited by Zmobie on 06-12-2006 03:14 PM<hr></blockquote>So you are a T7 sage? Maybe when Adept 3's start dropping of solo mobs you will have a different viewpoint on all of this. Aren't Adept 3's considered "essential" by a lot of the higher tier adventurers also??Regardless, this game was initially started with the idea that crafters would be able to make "essential" gear like armor, if the game had started otherwise there wouldn't be such an uproar. The fact that they are changing this midstream is what has so many upset, not because we can't make a lot of plat. I am willing to bet that the average adventurer makes more money than the average crafter.Amataelia64 Wizzy70 Tailorand too many alts to listGods of ChaosBlackburrow<div></div>

TaleraRis

06-13-2006, 03:03 AM

<blockquote><hr>Zmobie wrote:If you really enjoy crafting for the crafting, and not for the money, then the fact that armor (or whatever) is being changed to be about as good as common dropped items shouldn't bug you. <hr></blockquote>Unless you're an adventurer like myself who crafts to keep herself in items. My non-raid pathway to getting decent gear for the new content I explore is being seriously undermined. Crafted gear has always given the solo player a chance to keep up in terms of gear upgrades and stay competitive if and when they might want to group. I'm upset at the changes because my playstyle is being affected. All crafters aren't in it for the money, or even most I bet. They're in it because they enjoy it. Since they're making crafting easier than poking yourself in the eye now, I bet we *will* start to see people either only in it for the money or doing it to level up easily for HQs. The viability of it as a playstyle is being greatly diminished.<div></div>

Shadus

06-13-2006, 03:26 AM

<div><blockquote><hr>Ebjelen wrote:<div></div> This time last year, lvl 50 was the end game. What level will it be next year; two years from now; three years? We're still only in the second year.I think thats the exact issue thats scaring most of the crafters <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />If crafting gear is always better than loot drops, then what would be the motivation to even look for new gear in the field? Why would we need gear to drop as loot at all? Should a quick trip down to the cellar to visit a broker be all that is required to obtain top of the line gear? After all, if all one needs is platinum to obtain the best gear, then open a browser window and head to eBay, or hit up the guildies. It would work as long as lions, tigers and bears* still drop coin loot.My general thought on craft items is as follows:Common crafted items should be better than vendor and about equal to common dropsRare crafted items should be better than common drops and about equal to rare dropsFabled quality items should only be drops.Right now at almost any level range you can goto the broker and find fabled items for sale, they're not crafted, they're dropped... so your arguement doesnt really work. If you're willing to spend obscene ammounts of platinum you can vendor equip yourself with all legendary/fabled items easily.I guess it depends upon which is more important to the individual, the journey or the destination. The developers are obviously opting for the journey.Is "the journey" more fun if you die alot because your gear is a tier out of date and you've not yet done enough in the new tier? Is it more fun to spend 2-3x as long as it takes to go up levels as an adventurer going up skills as a craftsman to make nothing worthwhile?<hr></blockquote></div>

Cynto

06-13-2006, 04:04 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zmobie wrote: Uh, excuse me; but are you talking about money while the rest of us are talking about coin? No [Removed for Content]' wonder you can't stand what other people make! Dude, if that's the case, you have NO room to moan. If I could afford to spend hard-earned dough on toon stuff I'd have the buffest paladin around. Wow. I'm sorry if I misunderstood you (and GOD I HOPE I DID), because I've never waited more than a few seconds for anything I paid coin to a vendor for. Yes, you misunderstood me. I think people who pay RL money for VR objects are pretty sad. By they way, how dare you be so petty and small. You may like the idea of just killing everything in sight and criticizing everyone who doesn't, but some people like to put some effort into what they get. Having the patience to grind through all of that 'click the matching icon' you belittle (obviously never having even attempted beyond perhaps level six) takes a great deal more mental 'effort' than hoping your buddy in the raid party remembers to heal you. Nope. Hate to burst your bubble, but I'm one of the few T7 sages on my server. I know exactly how much effort that went into it: lots of pot, music in the background, and being massively bored for hours at a time playing "click the matching icon". The same applied for my (lower level) armorer, alchemist, and jeweler on LDL. Again, I have no problem with making TSing a rewarding, interesting, challenging alternate method of advancing one's chracter. I have a problem when part of that is making it so adventurers are required to buy their gear from the tradeskillers. The two paths should be completely seperate. Let tradeskillers handle optional gear like furniture, let drops handle essential gear like armor. --Plague Message Edited by Zmobie on 06-12-2006 03:14 PM <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> See, heres your problem, and I pointed it out earlier, to someone else in another thread for something similar. You don't have to buy anything from crafters. If you actually did buy something from crafters before the armor and gear became worthless then that was a choice you made. No one ever said "OMG D00D! You better buy crafted rare armor or you suxxors!" did they? Or maybe they did and thats why you felt you were "required" to buy it? The fact remains that while Cobalt in T6 was better than a lot of common dropped stuff, I had replaced more than half the pieces of it with dropped stuff from group instances, I didn't even have to raid to find better gear. You could have easily survived without the rare crafted stuff, so if you felt you just "had" to buy it, then that was your own viewpoint wasn't it? Hell, if you REALLY don't like buying stuff from other people, then just don't buy it! You'll do just fine without it I'm sure. But that is by far no reason for all crafted gear to be so worthless that people don't even want to have me make it for free. When I have people tell me that its a waste of a rare harvest, that tells me something, and trust me, i've heard that a few times from guildies and others i've grouped with. There has ALWAYS been an option to just use crafted or regular dropped items until you got some group instance or raid drops. Its just that it was the "easy" way to harvest rares and get gear made, and just skip over the group instances right to the raiding, because it was similar in its worth. Do I think that armorers should be the end all be all of armor? Hell no! But I sure as hell want to be able to make gear that at least *I* would like to wear. And right now, what I can make in Rare metal is garbage and not worth the rare. In the end it comes down to this, your point is, you want to loot your armor and don't want anything to compete with what you looted. Thats about it. Pretty much its just all about the "[Removed for Content]" waving contest, and honestly thats kinda stupid. Again, if you want to loot all your armor off mobs, by all means, go for it. But that dosn't mean we should make stuff that is pretty much useless. I mean, when we made reasonably good stuff you still didn't have to buy any, it was a choice whether you did or not. Now, there is no choice, its either "Kill mob X for the good gear" or ... "Kill mob X for the good gear because Crafted blows". Again, I have made far more money since T7 came out and I realized that crafted was crap and just started adventuring instead. Crafting never made me money, I just liked giving people armor and having something I made be useful, now I don't get that, but hey, i've made 10x the money I used to when I bothered to craft. Oh, and btw, you convienently ignored my statement that you could just as easily get a rare harvest drop from a named and then turn that in to a crafter, and it would essentially be the same thing, cause after all, you "won" against the mob and got the phat lewtsor, but I guess you were too busy being wraped up in your +10 mantle of crafter hate to notice. Message Edited by Cynto on 06-12-2006 08:05 PM

schizmark

06-13-2006, 04:50 AM

<DIV>My, but you are the self-loving, arrogant type, aren't you? Let me speak for those on the same intellectual level (and I'm being kind here). You haven't the foggiest idea what you're talking about. People who craft items are a mixed ilk, just as those who love bloody combat. The difference is that those who love combat are whining like small children that those who love to make things are earning coin. You need to grow up quite a bit. I don't care what you do for a living, and I don't care what you get paid. If you can afford to whine that you have to pay the asking price for what someone took the time to create, you have some serious self-analysis to perform. You cry because crafters actually work, and you want more satisfaction from slaughter. You sir, need help. Stop crying and play the game your way. Leave room for others to play the game their way and we'll all have fun. </DIV>

schizmark

06-13-2006, 04:57 AM

<DIV>Zmobi wrote: Uh, excuse me; but are you talking about money while the rest of us are talking about coin? No [Removed for Content]' wonder you can't stand what other people make! Dude, if that's the case, you have NO room to moan. If I could afford to spend hard-earned dough on toon stuff I'd have the buffest paladin around. Wow. I'm sorry if I misunderstood you (and GOD I HOPE I DID), because I've never waited more than a few seconds for anything I paid coin to a vendor for. Yes, you misunderstood me. I think people who pay RL money for VR objects are pretty sad. By they way, how dare you be so petty and small. You may like the idea of just killing everything in sight and criticizing everyone who doesn't, but some people like to put some effort into what they get. Having the patience to grind through all of that 'click the matching icon' you belittle (obviously never having even attempted beyond perhaps level six) takes a great deal more mental 'effort' than hoping your buddy in the raid party remembers to heal you. Nope. Hate to burst your bubble, but I'm one of the few T7 sages on my server. I know exactly how much effort that went into it: lots of pot, music in the background, and being massively bored for hours at a time playing "click the matching icon". The same applied for my (lower level) armorer, alchemist, and jeweler on LDL. Again, I have no problem with making TSing a rewarding, interesting, challenging alternate method of advancing one's chracter. I have a problem when part of that is making it so adventurers are required to buy their gear from the tradeskillers. The two paths should be completely seperate. Let tradeskillers handle optional gear like furniture, let drops handle essential gear like armor. --Plague Message Edited by Zmobie on 06-12-2006 03:14 PM Okay, so I made a mistake. That makes me human. You are still arrogant. The game has many different aspects, and limiting one aspect because you don't like to pay for decent armor is ridiculous. I find it amusing that you would use the word rewarding. You want tradeskilling to be 'rewarding' as long as it's within your boundaries. Bah. What's the reward in making a bed that will never be used? What's the reward in making an iron sconce? NONE. If it isn't going to be of use it's not very rewarding. Just because you don't enjoy the crafting process doesn't mean you should cry foul at those who do. </DIV>

schizmark

06-13-2006, 05:02 AM

<DIV>Cynto said: See, heres your problem, and I pointed it out earlier, to someone else in another thread for something similar. You don't have to buy anything from crafters. If you actually did buy something from crafters before the armor and gear became worthless then that was a choice you made. No one ever said "OMG D00D! You better buy crafted rare armor or you suxxors!" did they? Or maybe they did and thats why you felt you were "required" to buy it? The fact remains that while Cobalt in T6 was better than a lot of common dropped stuff, I had replaced more than half the pieces of it with dropped stuff from group instances, I didn't even have to raid to find better gear. You could have easily survived without the rare crafted stuff, so if you felt you just "had" to buy it, then that was your own viewpoint wasn't it? Hell, if you REALLY don't like buying stuff from other people, then just don't buy it! You'll do just fine without it I'm sure. But that is by far no reason for all crafted gear to be so worthless that people don't even want to have me make it for free. When I have people tell me that its a waste of a rare harvest, that tells me something, and trust me, i've heard that a few times from guildies and others i've grouped with. There has ALWAYS been an option to just use crafted or regular dropped items until you got some group instance or raid drops. Its just that it was the "easy" way to harvest rares and get gear made, and just skip over the group instances right to the raiding, because it was similar in its worth. Do I think that armorers should be the end all be all of armor? Hell no! But I sure as hell want to be able to make gear that at least *I* would like to wear. And right now, what I can make in Rare metal is garbage and not worth the rare. In the end it comes down to this, your point is, you want to loot your armor and don't want anything to compete with what you looted. Thats about it. Pretty much its just all about the "[Removed for Content]" waving contest, and honestly thats kinda stupid. Again, if you want to loot all your armor off mobs, by all means, go for it. But that dosn't mean we should make stuff that is pretty much useless. I mean, when we made reasonably good stuff you still didn't have to buy any, it was a choice whether you did or not. Now, there is no choice, its either "Kill mob X for the good gear" or ... "Kill mob X for the good gear because Crafted blows". Again, I have made far more money since T7 came out and I realized that crafted was crap and just started adventuring instead. Crafting never made me money, I just liked giving people armor and having something I made be useful, now I don't get that, but hey, i've made 10x the money I used to when I bothered to craft. Oh, and btw, you convienently ignored my statement that you could just as easily get a rare harvest drop from a named and then turn that in to a crafter, and it would essentially be the same thing, cause after all, you "won" against the mob and got the phat lewtsor, but I guess you were too busy being wraped up in your +10 mantle of crafter hate to notice. Message Edited by Cynto on 06-12-2006 08:05 PM __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ____________________ Perfet! No more needed until he whines again! Excellent! Hit the nail on the head. </DIV>