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View Full Version : Bug in the damage tables/weapons for Scouts/Other classes.


Kin
01-24-2005, 06:54 PM
<DIV>Same level Zerker will have ahigher min-max damage on the exact same bow as a Ranger.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Warrior types can use 1h hammer type weapons which are far better dps than the scout sword/dagger.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have 2 iron leafblades, 2sec delay and they have the same min-max damage that my friends cedar rods have, but the rods are 1.5 delay.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Surely this is a bug. Rangers bow damage should be > any other class. Warrior types should no be doing vastly more damage (.5 seconds is a BIG gap)</DIV>

Lancealittle
01-24-2005, 09:15 PM
<DIV>Fighter types do more base damage than a scout when using the same weapon. This is by design. This will hold true for any weapon. Non bard scouts will have to use poisons to offset this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Scouts will do more damage than a fighter when they use their specials. A ranger should not just auto attack with their bow and hope to outdamage a barbarian.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Grimve
01-24-2005, 10:00 PM
<DIV><EM>I have 2 iron leafblades, 2sec delay and they have the same min-max damage that my friends cedar rods have, but the rods are 1.5 delay.</EM></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Cedarstrike rods  (I believe they are called) are a quest reward, and as such will generally be better than player-made (or NPC-bought) weapons of the same level.</DIV>

Naggyba
01-24-2005, 11:13 PM
Str plays a part in the damage numbers also I believe. Since fighters have a higher str nomally...BTW, poisons are borked so, scouts don't get any offset of damage they lost in beta, for most of their career.They are totally broke at 40+ and resisted at 16-19, 26-29, 36+ so, that only leaves about 15 levels of poisons working to help offset the nerf scouts got in beta to their base DPS.<p>Message Edited by Naggybait on <span class=date_text>01-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:13 PM</span>

Kin
01-25-2005, 02:51 PM
<DIV>I don't quite understand how warriors can do more base damage than the supposed DPS classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So an Assassin will do less damage than a guardian with a bow? Why? If you want to argue the guardian can pull the bow taughter and fire a more powerful shot, then I can argue an assassin is designed to be a killer, so he would be more accurate, more skilled.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At least they should do the same damage when everyone in the group is out of power. Truthfully they should do more damage. As has been posted, I find it hard to believe that the design is that scouts must spend gold (and yes I mean gold, go look att he cost of high lvl poisons/arrows) to keep up and slightly surpass the warrior classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No one wants a nerf. Put the scouts on par pure melee wise with the warrior types. This will make almost NO difference when people have power (and its not that often you are oop). When you do get out of power, or if you are shooting a bow (Yeah as a ranger why can any warrior pick up my bow and hit harder with it?????) scouts should do at LEAST the same damage that a warrior does.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now if you know how the game works, you will know this will make VERY little difference overall. Its not the "I want to be uber" argument. I want it to be fair and to make sense. Not asking to be better, but it makes 0 sense to be worse. Especially with a bow!</DIV>

Naggyba
01-26-2005, 12:29 AM
I, and others, have done a lot of parsing the fights over the months. There is discussions of this in the scout forums. What we have found is, there are times when fighters will do more damage than us but, there are times when we do more. It seems related to when we are peaking on our skills and then we get new ones. Overall though, as a scout (in my case a swashbuckler), we do more damage. Not by a whole lot sometimes but, overall we do more.The thing is, SOE has tried to create a balance of the classes. They want all melee to do close to the same damage. You could create a group of 4 tanks and 2 healers and be just as effective killing stuff.However, you loose a LOT of utility the scouts and other classes bring to the fights. You loose evac, crowd control, power regen and a LONG list of other stuff.So, while scouts may sometimes fall behind in DPS, sometimes match or sometimes come ahead of tanks, etc., we ALSO have a lot of utility we bring to the group and the fights.You can't look at just one piece of the puzzle. You got to look at the whole picture.

Bihl
01-26-2005, 02:34 AM
<DIV>/agree Naggybait</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Another thing you should keep in mind as a scout class, is that your strength is not just a high rate of damage-per-second.  Scout combat arts cost less power than fighter arts do, overall, allowing scouts to literally spam arts during combat, where most fighters, if they are tanking, must be rather selective.  So you have the ability to affect combat a great deal more than fighters tend to do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think the main strength of scouts is their utility in Heroic Opportunities.  Scouts can be responsible for improving the overall damage output of a group by nearly 150%.  Heroic opportunities that can be initiated with a scout's coin power make up the majority of the best HO's available, and a quick, smart scout working in a solid group can make the difference between it being a close fight or an easy one.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, if you went to an NPC merchant and bought an iron weapon, you're just asking to suck.  Do a couple quests - buy a forged weapon from a crafter - something.  The store-bought items represent the bare minimum in terms of quality, and should really be shunned as much as possible.</DIV>

Miral
01-26-2005, 09:15 AM
<DIV>just remember scouts get pathfinding, remove trap, and sneak on top of their already good damage, plus their defense isn't too bad either, with chain and brigandine armor.... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh and don't even bother quoting parsing crap, so much depends on player skill and reflexes that its like comparing apples to megaton warheads.</DIV>

Kin
01-28-2005, 08:16 PM
<DIV>I dont believe a scouts "utility" is what makes up for me doing less damage with the exact same dagger that my roomates Guardian does.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A tanks utility is FAR more vital to a group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As a ranger my utility is extremely limited. Now, with my skills i do out DPS my roomate. I really do. But using the EXACT same bow (firwood short bow) I do 23-59damage. He does 35-98 damage!). He is the same level as me. This is a HUGE difference! So, when we both step back, dont use any style. He will out dps me with any weapon whatsoever. It is not a small difference either. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All I am saying is that with  a weapon a scout who is specialised in DPS should do more damage than any other class. At LEAST it should be equal to a warrior, and definately not significantly less. There is no reason for a warrior to use that same bow and consistantly hit that much harder, sorry.</DIV>

Kwoung
01-29-2005, 12:18 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KinKe wrote:<BR> <DIV>Surely this is a bug. Rangers bow damage should be > any other class. Warrior types should no be doing vastly more damage (.5 seconds is a BIG gap)</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Actually, the game design called for warriors to do more damage than scout classes across the board due to the scouts having the extra utility skills. Scouts were pumped up in beta to be more in line with damage though when they found they were pretty [Removed for Content].</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That said... this isn't EQ1 and Rangers are not supposed to be doing more damage than other classes(bow or not), they were supposed to do less actually.</DIV>

Ethi
01-29-2005, 01:48 AM
<DIV>Almost all of a scouts damage is in his arts not the weapon stats... In fact I've been meaning to test my dps using the crapiest weapon I can find.  I'm guessing it probably won't really make much difference because the weapon damage I do in a normal fight is less than 20% of my total damage.  Ha not using poison would be about the same hit as if me weapon did no damage at all...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think this is pretty messed up.  but there you have it.  I'll do some parsing to confirm this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Naggyba
01-29-2005, 11:30 PM
Out of the hundreds of fights I have parsed, I consistently do 20-25% of my damage from my normal piercing/slashing damage. It spikes a little higher if I run out of power.That's nothing to sneeze at and having a good weapon DOES make a difference.Go grab you a tin dagger off the merchant and try it out and try it with CAs too, if you think the crappiest weapon won't make a difference.Something else that makes a difference. Stats. The higher you go, the better the stats on the better weapons.

Cyneric
01-30-2005, 11:26 PM
Another thing to keep in mind is tanks attack rating vs scouts.Lower attack doesn't mack much of a diff on blue cons, but go fight some yellow and orange, and watch the tank start to whiff a bit more than the scout.

CerraWhisperwind
01-31-2005, 12:08 AM
Part of the problem is the general need to classify classes in roles. EQ2 is set up so you don't have strict roles as much. There is no real 'DPS' class in the minds of the developers. Certain classes may have an edge here and there depending on the situation, but the same class won't always have the edge in every situation. A good example of this is an enchanter. Enchanters have one of the best DPS vs any mob using wards, as they have amoung the best DOTs (which ignore wards). Its all situational.

Jher
02-11-2005, 05:41 PM
<blockquote><hr>Naggybait wrote:I, and others, have done a lot of parsing the fights over the months. There is discussions of this in the scout forums. What we have found is, there are times when fighters will do more damage than us but, there are times when we do more. It seems related to when we are peaking on our skills and then we get new ones. Overall though, as a scout (in my case a swashbuckler), we do more damage. Not by a whole lot sometimes but, overall we do more.The thing is, SOE has tried to create a balance of the classes. They want all melee to do close to the same damage. You could create a group of 4 tanks and 2 healers and be just as effective killing stuff.However, you loose a LOT of utility the scouts and other classes bring to the fights. You loose evac, crowd control, power regen and a LONG list of other stuff.So, while scouts may sometimes fall behind in DPS, sometimes match or sometimes come ahead of tanks, etc., we ALSO have a lot of utility we bring to the group and the fights.You can't look at just one piece of the puzzle. You got to look at the whole picture.<hr></blockquote>Thanks for being a voice of reason in these turbulent times <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Playing a berserker, often MT in the group, I bring a pretty hefty whack of damage, and good tanking - Having just hit 37 my dps has shot up quite a bit (new skill), taking me in some situations over equal level scouts (and undoubtedly so in AoE situations). Would I ever pick fighters over scouts when adding DPS to the group though? Never.Scout DPS, sometimes higher, sometimes lower than Fighter DPS is infinitely more stackable - Fighters (especially berserkers) often needing to be MT in order to maximise potential. On top of this, the extra utility skills of scouts are not just nice, but vital in many areas. If scouts feel they need more utility for the scout DPS/Utility and fighter DPS/Tanking roles to be equal, then all props to them - I'd certainly benefit!My major concerns about a rebalancing of scout vs fighter DPS revolve around what each class brings to the group - Without my good DPS, you'll start to see fewer fighters performing offtank roles, and we'll be limited as armour-cased taunt bots. Whilst with the extra forthcoming mitigation values I have no doubt we'll still be viable... Just not really what we were intended to be, and a lot less fun to play. Taunt-mashing generic meatshields.