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View Full Version : Tradeskill success now seems determined randomly rather than by player skill


Bihl
01-14-2005, 02:47 PM
<DIV>Thanks for updating the Test server to match Live, BTW.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, recently the <FONT color=#ffff99><STRONG>Tradeskill Arts </STRONG></FONT>(abbreviated <FONT color=#ffff99><STRONG>TA</STRONG></FONT> here) <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=general_tradeskill&message.id=29845" target=_blank>were all adjusted</A>.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't disagree with reducing the ease of achieving a pristine product - mashing 5 buttons in 4 seconds isn't much of a challenge, and I admit I was close to making a macro for it.  However, one negative result of these changes that I've noticed is that even when making an extremely easy item, it's very possible to not only lose pristine quality, but to then be unable to regain it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Thesis:</STRONG></DIV> <DIV>From what I can tell, each combine attempt has a randomly determined (and static for the duration of the attempt) success quality that determines how much progress is gained and durability is lost without using any TA's.  This results in TA's being secondary to a player's chance of success, and the player's skill as a crafter being at best tertiary.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>My Observation:</STRONG></DIV> <DIV>Upon beginning a combine attempt, some sort of success or failure is predetermined for the entire process.  Usually with subcombine or final combine items (like metal rings and metal armor, respectively) it is possible to notice a general "<FONT color=#ffff99><STRONG>combine success quality</STRONG></FONT>" (<FONT color=#ffff99><STRONG>CSQ</STRONG></FONT>) before Crude quality is reached, allowing you to stop the combine and start again, hoping for a better CSQ.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In the cases where you seem to have a generally high CSQ, it is not very hard to use the +Durability TA's to gain Durability from at least 50% of the attempts to use a +Durability TA.  In these cases, critical failures can and do still pose quite a threat, but the crafting process is generally exciting and challenging.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, if your combine attempt has a generally average or low CSQ, then it is next to impossible to gain any Durability whatsoever when using +Durability TA's.  In these cases, the end result is pre-determined and no amount of effort or skill can earn you a success.  These are very frustrating and un-fun.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Based on my observations, roughly 10-20% of combine attempts have an acceptable CSQ.  </DIV> <DIV>I define <EM>acceptible</EM> as being, "Good enough to allow success to be determined by player skills and random critical success or failure."  </DIV> <DIV>I define <EM>unacceptible</EM> as, "Poor enough that no matter the skills of the player, only an extremely high critical success rate can allow for a pristine product."  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>End Result:</STRONG></DIV> <DIV>The quality of the final product is rarely determined by the skill of the player, or how well they choose their TA use.  By repeatedly restarting a combine attempt until a high CSQ is observed, it is possible to ensure that +Durability TA's are capable of raising overall Durability.  In these cases, +Durability TA's appear to work as intended and failure isn't pre-determined.</DIV> <DIV>If a combine attempt has a low or average CSQ, no amount of player skill or +Durability TA use can raise the overall Durability of the product.  In these combine attempts (roughly 80% from what I have observed), +Durability TA's do nothing more than counteract natural Durability loss, and even then they do this only a little more than half the time they are used.  In these cases, it is hard to defend +Durability TA's as working correctly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Example:</STRONG></DIV> <DIV>I'm a level 21 tailor, making iron rings for some iron chainmail armor.  The recipe for the iron bars and metal rings both con grey to me.</DIV> <DIV>Metal Shaping skill:  94/92</DIV> <DIV>Pristine rings: 10/12</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In each of the failures* above, no use of +Durability TA's resulted in Durability gain of any amount.  In some of the successes of these 10, a use of +Durability TA's resulted in positive Durability gain about half the time - enough to make it possible to finish a pristine product by using smart TA choices.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cccccc size=1>*  If a ring isn't made pristine, even if the ring is being made for a piece of armor that isn't planned for pristine quality, then it is not worth using.  Of course, a non-pristine iron ring is worth exactly 1s, because that's what a vendor will pay for one, so I'm not claiming that it is a total loss.  It seems as though a grey recipe should not have such a low success rate.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As a secondary example, I recently made some rawhide backpacks (that's a level 5 tailoring recipe - one of the easiest final combine recipes that exist).  With a tailoring skill of 107/107, making 8 bags, I had to restart 5 combine attempts due to a poor CSQ (+Durability TA's did not raise Durability), and one of the attempts that I didn't restart resulted in a standard quality bag.  As a level 21 tailor, I consider this to be not yet balanced.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Conclusion:</STRONG></DIV> <DIV>If the goal of these changes was to simply make pristine products rare, then this has been accomplished.  However, if the goal was to also involve <EM>more </EM>of a player's acumen as a crafter, using timing and intelligent Tradeskill Art usage to determine his/her chance at a pristine product, then these changes haven't changed a thing.  Being able to mash down 5 buttons every 4 seconds to get a pristine product involves the player's skill no more or less than having the chance of success being taken completely out of the player's hands because of an overall success quality limitation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(( Edit:  I just wanted to note that so far, after the patch, I have only done Outfitter crafting, so this is not based on any experience with my alchemist or woodworker.<FONT color=#000000>)</FONT>))</DIV></DIV><p>Message Edited by Bihlbo on <span class=date_text>01-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:58 AM</span>

Elygron
01-14-2005, 02:58 PM
<DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>Very well written. Seems my subjectiv observations weren´t that subjectiv at all. I hope that the devs find a way to make crafting a challenge to the players skills (so neither "mash your buttons until your hand fell off" nor "what ever you do you can´t win").</FONT></DIV>

Bihl
01-14-2005, 03:49 PM
<DIV>Thanks Elygron.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Though, I realized after writing this that I'm not basing anything on numbers at all here, so I'm not sure how much value it has.  Looks like some others have put forth real numbers that show similar results.  I'll keep doing research and start recording some numbers too, see what I find out.</DIV>

Kylan
01-14-2005, 06:34 PM
Your feelings are spot on as far as tailoring is concerned. I tried making 12 backpacks today. Every time I got one of your 'unsaveable' combines it was impossible to raise the durability at all! -40 dur pulseI hit +dur -pow-56 dur pulse (absolutely *no* visible durability addition, in fact it was worse)I hit +dur -prog and +dur -pow-60 dur pulse (again, even with two durability TAs, I got even more durability loss, nothing I as a player can do has any control over this combine)Nothing-40 dur pulse (even not touching anything and yet more loss)I've also noticed that if I do nothing at all except counter only the Major Events I get almost the same results as if I'm constantly trying to tweak progress and durability. The crafter has truely been taken out of the 'crafting encounter'.I don't even belive that the pulses are logged at all, so it'll be.. difficult.. for us to get any real numbers. All I know is crafting is a pain now, not fun and takes no skill anymore.

Evadne
01-14-2005, 10:29 PM
Very well done. You managed to be detailed and polite. No ranting, or whining at all. Bravo.I agree entirely with your statement. There seems to be an increase in the random factor in tradeskilling. I rarely restart combines, because I am lazy. Now with the changes I see that it really isn't worthwhile to expend the time on restarts.I can imagine that balancing the tradeskills is extraordinarly complicated. I don't expect them to be done ever. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />~Eva

AlA
01-15-2005, 06:53 AM
<DIV>I am not a test center player. I did not intend to post in the test center feedback - Oops! Sorry. I've edited away my post. </DIV><p>Message Edited by AlAro on <span class=date_text>01-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:59 PM</span>

TheGeneral
01-15-2005, 12:08 PM
<DIV>Your findings hit the nail on the head on my experiences.  Specifically on the part that it seems that the outcome is already semi determined when you start.  If my first two ticks are horrible I usually just stop the combine, loose the fuel and start over.</DIV>

Klipshack
01-15-2005, 12:33 PM
<DIV> <DIV>TheGenreal wrote:</DIV> <DIV>Your findings hit the nail on the head on my experiences.  Specifically on the part that it seems that the outcome is already semi determined when you start.  If my first two ticks are horrible I usually just stop the combine, loose the fuel and start over.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Here, Here! I do the exact same thing.  The overall success does seem to be pre-determined.   Trades skills seem have come down to basically one thing, react.</DIV></DIV>

KingDrahl
01-17-2005, 12:51 AM
<DIV>Excellent post.  I agree with absolutely every single thing you say out 100%.  I have a 28 carpenter, 23 alchemist, and 19.100% outfitter and I noticed behavior on all that is right on with what you say here.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I could not have said it better.  I hope sony responds to it.  I noticed the exact same thing.   And regardless if it is accurate or not, that is the perception and therefore enough to ask the question, "Why bother crafting?  Why bother playing?"</DIV><p>Message Edited by KingDrahlek on <span class=date_text>01-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:52 AM</span>

Ricassari
01-18-2005, 07:15 AM
Excellent and absolutely on the spot. Random Generator rulez, and instead of the promised "skillfull process of crafting" we got a crafting system where even the last tiny piece of skill has been removed. Especially when making interims, I now usually press "Begin" and read a book or watch TV. The result in pristines is a bit but not significantly lower than when I would actually interact with the crafting process.

Drayus
01-20-2005, 11:19 AM
I agree with this post 110%. Since the change my tradeskill experience has definately became frustrating to the point that I want to slam my keyboard against my monitor and send Sony the repair bill. I don't expect to get pristine quality items easily but if my skill is sufficiently higher than the product I'm attempting to Craft I feel I should have little trouble doing so. As it stands I"m now constantly restarting the crafting process to get a good start before crude locks in. Even then it often times seems that I get to the final pristine quality in decent shape only to be blasted with a durability disentigrater of some sort... Almost as if pristine quality was predetermined as being unavailable at that time. Changes like these that make a game frustrating is usually what sends me packing to try out some other game. EQ is already an extremely time demanding game... Cut us some slack and allow us some moments of pleasure unriddled with frustration. I too feel like my characters skill plays little to no influence on the outcome.Garner of Butcherblock Server25th Alchemist (21st Illusionist)P.S. As for being an alchemist this has become extremely frustrating because my inks have to be pristine to make Apprentice IV powers. Which means the dye to make my ink has to be pristine as well as the reagents to make my dyes. And of course pristine Resins, Oils and Washes are nice for the extra unit you get. Each step of making a power for me has now become a frustrating battle of unending repitition.

Iseabeil
01-20-2005, 10:41 PM
<DIV>since that nice little patch came, i afk craft all the time except on forge, after i did some testing. i didnt take any numbers on the successes/failures, i just made one stack with counters and one stack with just 'start craft' and then leave it be. when i got a bigger stack pristine from leaving it alone, i decided it wasnt worth my headache to try interact with it anymore. i can accept less pristines, i cant take the fact that im a crafting bot tho... almost starting to wonder when SWG macro system comes so i can just start macro and then go take a shower and come back with backpacks full of goods to sell....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>crafters are a huge chunk of the coomunity, we need some TLC <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

Kwoung
01-21-2005, 12:05 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Iseabeil wrote:<BR> <DIV>since that nice little patch came, i afk craft all the time except on forge, after i did some testing. i didnt take any numbers on the successes/failures, i just made one stack with counters and one stack with just 'start craft' and then leave it be. when i got a bigger stack pristine from leaving it alone, i decided it wasnt worth my headache to try interact with it anymore. i can accept less pristines, i cant take the fact that im a crafting bot tho... almost starting to wonder when SWG macro system comes so i can just start macro and then go take a shower and come back with backpacks full of goods to sell....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>crafters are a huge chunk of the coomunity, we need some TLC <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> You using the new system correctly? I get nothing but pristines using my buffs correctly, even on brand new even level recipies.

Rali
01-21-2005, 10:10 PM
<DIV>I'm going to have to agree with Kwoung, and suffer his same one-star fate as well, with the proper buffs I can get pristines with regularity, although a bit more slowly (then again I'm still waiting a bit for the power bar to regen).   I've tried -not- pushing buttons and my pristine rate drops as it should.  Play around with the buffs, you may be suprised.  As for the post about countering all events seems to do just as well, some countered events help the process along a lot. (one of the knotting events when countered gives an insane increase in dur for example).  Though this is reliant a bit on the RNG, so is combat for that matter (hit/miss etc), and the reactive nature does provide some sort of skill, though I'm sure some of you may disagree.</DIV>

Iseabeil
01-22-2005, 01:42 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kwoung wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Iseabeil wrote:<BR> <DIV>since that nice little patch came, i afk craft all the time except on forge, after i did some testing. i didnt take any numbers on the successes/failures, i just made one stack with counters and one stack with just 'start craft' and then leave it be. when i got a bigger stack pristine from leaving it alone, i decided it wasnt worth my headache to try interact with it anymore. i can accept less pristines, i cant take the fact that im a crafting bot tho... almost starting to wonder when SWG macro system comes so i can just start macro and then go take a shower and come back with backpacks full of goods to sell....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>crafters are a huge chunk of the coomunity, we need some TLC <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> You using the new system correctly? I get nothing but pristines using my buffs correctly, even on brand new even level recipies.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>i tried work with my tier2 counters, my tier3 counters, and with 2 and 3 mixed. only effect i see is that i get more double red numers. i expect that to happen when i have low skill in it, but it happens even in food cooking with 121/121 culinary on recipies that con down to green. the only buff seems to be any relibale is the progress/durability for power, relyin on that one too much tho, makes crafting extremely slow, even when using high saturation drinks.</DIV>

RoseWhi
01-22-2005, 02:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kylania wrote:<BR><BR>I don't even belive that the pulses are logged at all, so it'll be.. difficult.. for us to get any real numbers. All I know is crafting is a pain now, not fun and takes no skill anymore.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>No, there is no logging at all done with regards to the numbers generated by tradeskills. There is no way at all to verfy, by parsing the results of multiple crafting sessions, whether the rumors and allegations of nerfs are true or whether they are just disgruntled mutterings. Adventuring combat is logged and these logs have been vital in helping improve and fix melee encounters. I very much wish that Artisans had the same tools so we, too, could do the same thing for crafting.</DIV>

CerraWhisperwind
01-22-2005, 07:14 AM
Is this a test issue or a live issue? I am on test and do not have a problem making pristines making T3 alchemy or T1 and T2 sage items

darkt
01-24-2005, 05:12 AM
<DIV>It is way too easy the way it is.  Never died while crafting, not once.  Seen people mash buttons to craft, then when i check in the morning same people... still there mashing buttons, assuming they are not afk macroing Since that is against the rules! :smileyvery-happy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If it is going to be this easy, then put in something like tetris while we test crafting.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Kwoung
01-24-2005, 05:56 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Iseabeil wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kwoung wrote:<BR><BR> You using the new system correctly? I get nothing but pristines using my buffs correctly, even on brand new even level recipies.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>i tried work with my tier2 counters, my tier3 counters, and with 2 and 3 mixed. only effect i see is that i get more double red numers. i expect that to happen when i have low skill in it, but it happens even in food cooking with 121/121 culinary on recipies that con down to green. the only buff seems to be any relibale is the progress/durability for power, relyin on that one too much tho, makes crafting extremely slow, even when using high saturation drinks.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Here is the link to how to use the new system: <A href="http://www.eq2test.com/viewtopic.php?t=260" target=_blank>http://www.eq2test.com/viewtopic.php?t=260</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I was just able to make 25 Pristine (app4) even con spells in a row using it, not one failure.</DIV>

Cret
01-24-2005, 06:42 PM
<DIV>As an armorer, I can tell you that the above posted link does not work for me.  After doing 150 feyiron bars, at L29, the method that is most successful for me is to abort if the durablity bar is less than half before the first quality bar is filled.  Other than that, just counter the highest events (to keep from dying) and ignore everything else.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There is no "Tradeskill".  There is only a random number generator and a hopelessly [Removed for Content]'d system.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

0ctavi
01-24-2005, 10:23 PM
I have to agree with what was posted here. In my experience, TA use seems to have little or no logical effect on quality or durability. I can be crafting normally, and get a string of -50 durabilities. In fact what I have noticed is, instead of actually paying attention to what I use, and using TAs selectively based on what is happening, mashing buttons actually seem to have MORE of an effect than using the system the way it is meant to be used. When I get a specific event, I have been hitting 3 TA instead of the one that matches the event, and have subsequentlty gotten more successes. This seems like a reverse on how the system SHOULD work to me...Success should be based on the player's skill compared to the skill required for the recipe. (so if a recipe is gray, should I really fail half the time? I would think you would get at least a 90% chance of getting pristines on a gray recipe...)TA seem to have less of an effect on success / failures. I may not be totally familiar with the way the system works, but as it stands, I would think that getting an event, and successfully using the correct TA would negate the negative effects of that event. Yet that doesn't explain a -50, event, successful TA, -50 -50 on some combines that are green!The difficulty and resulting success rate should be something like:Very Hared Recipe (Orange) - 10% chance of successHard Recipe (Yellow) - 25% chance of successEven Recipe (White) - 50% chance of successEasy Recipe (Blue) - 65% chance of successVery Easy Recipe (Green) - 80% chance of successTrivial Recipe (Grey) - 90% (or 100% if you wanna be generous) chance of successI am considering success here as a chance of pristine (or highest quality available if pristine is not)This is just my opinion, feel free to disagree...<p>Message Edited by 0ctavius on <span class=date_text>01-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:26 AM</span>

Kin
01-25-2005, 04:16 PM
<DIV>I find the type of craft makes a BIG difference. My roomate can make pristine spells 90% of the time. Doing the same level combines with the equivelent skills (i.e. both lvl 22 in our craft, both doing lvl 22 combines) I struggle to make pristines.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Im a provisioner, he is a sage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The thing is though, as a provisioner I am not to bothered by making normal and not delectable/refreshing foods. As a sage it makes quite a big difference. Sooo maybe this Is balanced to the Devs ideals, not sure =)</DIV>

ScottAdams
01-25-2005, 06:53 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kwoung wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>Here is the link to how to use the new system: <A href="http://www.eq2test.com/viewtopic.php?t=260" target=_blank>http://www.eq2test.com/viewtopic.php?t=260</A></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I was just able to make 25 Pristine (app4) even con spells in a row using it, not one failure.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Many thanks for the link! I will try this system out and see how it works.<BR>

Bihl
01-26-2005, 02:20 AM
<P>Note:  Rather than edit my original post, I'm going to just argue with myself.  I'm hoping I can keep a cool head and not tick myself off too much.  I'll have to make sure to read my post when I'm in a good mood so I don't retort by flaming myself.<BR></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bihlbo wrote:<BR> <DIV>So, recently the <FONT color=#ffff99><STRONG>Tradeskill Arts </STRONG></FONT>(abbreviated <FONT color=#ffff99><STRONG>TA</STRONG></FONT> here) <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=general_tradeskill&message.id=29845" target=_blank>were all adjusted</A>.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>...Based on my observations, roughly 10-20% of combine attempts have an acceptable CSQ.  </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Okay, one big thing you're missing is that they didn't adjust the TA's like they said they did.  Here's the specific section of the update notes that I'm referring to:</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <DIV><STRONG>Change:</STRONG> Like benefits from reaction arts don't stack anymore.<BR><STRONG>Reason:</STRONG> Players were able to stack huge amounts of progress or durability gain at the same time. We have changed it so that if two abilities both give progress, the first effect used will be the one that you benefit from. For example, if I use Seasoning (+16 progress) immediately before Constant Heat (+24 progress), I would gain only the +16 progress from the Seasoning ability. The detrimental effects from both of those abilities still apply, however, so I would be affected by both the durability loss from the Constant Heat and the lowered success chance from the Seasoning. This change, as well as others, encourages attentive play.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You can no longer gain more than 28 progress in addition to the normal success/failure/critical success/critical failure for a single round, and you can no longer gain more than 15 durability in addition to the normal success/failure/critical success/critical failure for a single round. <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>All of this is patently false.</P> <P>It is still possible to use all three TA's with the same icon, with the same beneficial effect, during a crafting tic, and gain a benefit from all three.  For example:</P> <P>If the above were true, then using Cord while tailoring would increase your progress by a certain amount and cost some power, but then using Quickness afterward would only cost you success chance.  You could measure how much progress gain you receive from using Cord only and compare it to using Cord and Quickness during the same tic, and this will tell you if the above changes are active.  </P> <P>In fact, while crafting, if you use <STRONG>Knots </STRONG>(tier 1 tailoring TA: +prog -low power), <STRONG>Quickness</STRONG> (tier 3 tailoring TA: +prog -success), and <STRONG>Weaving</STRONG> (tier 3 TA: +prog -durability) then the standard result is <STRONG>-16 durability </STRONG>(this is 6 more durability loss than if you used no TAs) and <STRONG>+95 progress </STRONG>(this is more of a progress gain than you see when using any one +progress TA).</P> <P>So if you're only using 2 TAs per tic (one TA that boosts progress and one that boosts durability) because of the changes Moorgard said were in effect, then you're doing it wrong.</P> <P>You should be seeing about half of the combine attempts (or a little better) with an acceptable success rate, from my experience, if you're using the TA's correctly.</P> <P><BR></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bihlbo wrote:<BR> <DIV><STRONG>My Observation:</STRONG></DIV> <DIV>Upon beginning a combine attempt, some sort of success or failure is predetermined for the entire process.  Usually with subcombine or final combine items (like metal rings and metal armor, respectively) it is possible to notice a general "<FONT color=#ffff99><STRONG>combine success quality</STRONG></FONT>" (<FONT color=#ffff99><STRONG>CSQ</STRONG></FONT>) before Crude quality is reached, allowing you to stop the combine and start again, hoping for a better CSQ.  <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I don't think you stated this very well.  The main thing you notice while crafting, if the CSQ is low, is that successes are rare and failures are common.  With some combines, no matter what you use, even if you haven't used a single -success TA, you'll get a string of seriousl failures.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One example of this is when I recently went to make some burlap cloth.  It's a gray recipe and should be easy, so I was using the whole trio of +progress TAs (costing power, success, and durability each tic).  But, two tics in I got a failure for <FONT color=#ff0000><STRONG>-40 -64</STRONG></FONT>.  So I switched to +durability actions and got another heafty failure.  I stopped using the +durability -success action completely, thinking it caused the failure, and in 8 tics I saw nothing but red (no progress or durability gain whatsoever) and almost had a shaped piece of cloth.  From then on the best I did was to gain +6 durability (using Knots for progress and Ebroider for durability can zero out durability loss as you slowly gain progress) in the course of 6 more tics.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Conversely, I then tried making boiled leather sleeves.  This recipe cons yellow to me, so I was expecting a real fight.  I started as I start all combines, with using all three +progress TAs and saw the normal result.  But then, I saw a success that <EM>boosted</EM> my durability, even though I was using a -success and a -durability action.  It took less than a minute to make those sleeves and the one time I used Embroider to slow the durability loss, I gained 35 durability through a critical success.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So here's the thing: if it's possible for random events to cause me to bomb a gray recipe and to breeze through a yellow recipe like it was a tin bar, then there's something seriously out of whack.</DIV>

Elawise
01-26-2005, 05:24 AM
<DIV>I did a little test as a lvl 16 scholar.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>10 combines for each case making stroma wash </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> The three button method.  70%  Pristene described in the above post</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Counter only 80% Pristene.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Nothing (afk) trades 70% Pristene.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So I decided that The afk trades are worth the extra 10% pristene as I can get stuff done around the house while playing, and have more playtime.  I also would imagine that if I ran those numbers to 100 combines they would all actually run close to 75% meaning no difference.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

CerraWhisperwind
01-26-2005, 10:04 AM
Odd, which of the three scholar tradeskills were you using? I just did alchemy at 22 and made 30 pristines and only 3 non pristines. This was a high fail rate for what I am used to, the alchemy table didn't like me tonight. Of course that is on TEST, if you are on live your code may be different.

Kwoung
01-26-2005, 11:46 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CerraWhisperwind wrote:<BR>Odd, which of the three scholar tradeskills were you using? I just did alchemy at 22 and made 30 pristines and only 3 non pristines. This was a high fail rate for what I am used to, the alchemy table didn't like me tonight. Of course that is on TEST, if you are on live your code may be different.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>/agree</P> <P>Using the methods devised by Cerra and described by me in the link a few posts back... I have only had one spell come out at less than App 4 (pristine) out of the last hundred combines I have done. But like Cerra said, this is on test.. no clue if live is different or you are just not using the buffs correctly. If I only had 70% pristines I would have quit tradeskilling out of frustration... which I was about to do before Cerra explained how it worked to me.</P>

Faerel
01-27-2005, 06:50 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kwoung wrote: <P>Using the methods devised by Cerra and described by me in the link a few posts back... I have only had one spell come out at less than App 4 (pristine) out of the last hundred combines I have done. But like Cerra said, this is on test.. no clue if live is different or you are just not using the buffs correctly. If I only had 70% pristines I would have quit tradeskilling out of frustration... which I was about to do before Cerra explained how it worked to me.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>My experiences with spell crafting on live at lv24 sage:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I usually do batches of 20 at a time and only use pristine inks, quills and paper if I can help it. I only make spells at my current level.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For each spell I try to get past the first quality bar using the two buttons that take no power, or ideally just the +progess/-success button (otherwise I will be waiting for power again if I have failures and have to abort). This method means you have to rely on a string of successes and this can take up to 10 attempts (but fuel is cheaper than the difference in cost between App3 and App4).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Once I gained the first bar and acheived lowest quality I can then spam the +progess/-power button as progress is faster now. However, it seems to me that there is some factor built in on the App4 bar that will give you a string of failures on that bar no matter what you do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Often you can find that you end up right on the end of the 3rd quality bar. Spamming the +durabilty/-power key on its own *may* just get you back to App4 without draining all your power.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Using this method I can usually achieve 15-20% App4 rate (depending on my patience), but I have to agree with most people that crafter skill is secondary to the RNG when it comes to crafting.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

CerraWhisperwind
01-27-2005, 08:10 PM
15-20% ??? at level 24 you should never be just spamming the power progress buff, thats a good way to burn off all your mana so you cant recover from failures. You should be saving your power for the power durability buff. I get the most success when I use one progress and one durability buff each round, both costing zero mana, and saving my manay for splurging durability back up. The rare cases I use the power progress buff is when I am almost done and want to finish it fast before failures start, but even then its better not to because I have to wait for power afterwards before starting the next one.In most cases, if you have a full mana bar, you can recover from even a string of failures by using all three durability buffs each round. This is my emergency mode and what I save all my mana for.

Kwoung
01-27-2005, 10:06 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Faerel wrote:<BR><BR> <DIV>My experiences with spell crafting on live at lv24 sage:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>..........</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Using this method I can usually achieve 15-20% App4 rate (depending on my patience), but I have to agree with most people that crafter skill is secondary to the RNG when it comes to crafting.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Same reaction as Cerra... 15-20%?!?!?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Either you didn't understand the instructions or your code is different on live like I said before... as I achieve 99% success rates on getting App4 spells.. as a 22 Sage making only even level spells. That's is a far cry from your 15-20% and about the same results I was getting back when was only countering events that popped up.</DIV>

Faerel
01-28-2005, 01:56 AM
<DIV>Hehe I suggest you try spellcrafting on the live servers then, where durability buffs at lv20+ do almost nothing to increase durability <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

CerraWhisperwind
01-28-2005, 04:08 AM
Perhaps you should voice your concerns on a live server board? The devs reading this forum are looking for feedback on test issues, and not live problems. Post this on the tradeskill boards instead and it might get looked at.

Kwoung
01-28-2005, 05:01 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Faerel wrote:<BR> <DIV>Hehe I suggest you try spellcrafting on the live servers then, where durability buffs at lv20+ do almost nothing to increase durability <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>/glances at forum name.</P> <P>Looks like I am in the right place.. crafting is working fine on Test, I just banged out another 40 spells.. 100% pristine. Maybe you will get the update next go around. </P><p>Message Edited by Kwoung on <span class=date_text>01-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:06 PM</span>

Faerel
01-28-2005, 01:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P> <HR> </P> <P>CerraWhisperwind wrote:<BR></P> <P>Of course that is on TEST, if you are on live your code may be different.<BR></P> <P> <HR> </P> <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kwoung wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>no clue if live is different or you are just not using the buffs correctly.....</P> <P> <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Before you start flaming me again. I was just giving you feedback as to the status of crafting on the live servers as you asked.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Aurabanx
01-28-2005, 06:31 PM
<DIV>well i dont have a lengthy post or detailed one, but i do have this to say i have a 17 outfitter, 14 scholar, 12 craftsman, and what i have noticed is on the tier 1 stuff like chloro washes i make pristine 9 outa 10 trys. sometimes 100%. now i used to make app iv spells 8 outa 10 tries, well since this patch i can now only make app iv 2 outa 10 tries. im spamming my buttons in many different ways and still i get no increase in product. i tried not spamming and got same result. so whats the use of the buttons (just to counteract the thingys?) no sense in doing tradeskills now since i can barley make crude yellow con stuff and shaped white/blue con stuff. and occasionally i stink on making green stuff. all i ask is why in the hell did they make a change to tradeskills? its hard enough to get the advanced scrolls as it is. 3-11g on permafrost server for lvl 11 advanced refining scrolls sometimes. and btw you guys selling coral and silver for 11g are outa your minds, most i ever had is 2 g and thats from a24 ranger. rant over</DIV>

Maitreak
01-28-2005, 07:54 PM
<DIV>I will start off by saying, I am on a Live server. That said, I have no problem whatsoever in making App4 spells and skills, in over 60 combines yesterday I had 100% success. I am basicly doing exactly what the link suggests, with minor changes I have found works for me.  Just my 2cp.</DIV>

bora
01-28-2005, 08:05 PM
I have to agree with the thread starter as I have noticed a strange change in success rates for recepies and also the effects of dur+ buffs.I am currently Woodworker level 42, being one of the most experienced on my server (Valor) and I guess I know how to handle the buff system.The recent changes make it impossible to predict the outcome of buff usage and that completely frustrated me...How does SOE explain me being able to finish one out of ten combines using progress+ buffs only without even a single fail?And then again I have to start 5 combines trying really hard (for minutes!) to get even a crude shield or even a [Removed for Content] REFINE because every time I use a dura buff i get a -50/-60ish outcome? Sorry, this is completely unacceptable!If SOE wants to do some balancing or make crafting harder that is perfectly ok with me, but they have to have consistent buff outcomes and PLEASE show their effect!Like "Bartos uses buff X - outcome is ZZ modified by successful buff X. Bartos receives 0.3% Crafting Experience."PS: Please leave those kind of patches on the test Server and if you don't put at least soem kind of notice into the patch notes...

Brigh
01-28-2005, 09:01 PM
<DIV>I am getting especially psd off that when you use a durability buff, you can lose -95 durablity. </DIV> <DIV>That is just a straight durability buff -power.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It irks me to no end how difficult it is. Sometimes it is like I should never touch a buff less I loose durability.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Kwoung
01-28-2005, 11:10 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Maitreakow wrote:<BR> <DIV>I will start off by saying, I am on a Live server. That said, I have no problem whatsoever in making App4 spells and skills, in over 60 combines yesterday I had 100% success. I am basicly doing exactly what the link suggests, with minor changes I have found works for me.  Just my 2cp.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Thank you for testing this on live... that is exactly my results on Test as well. It appears the new system is in place on live already, but many people are just not getting / understanding how to use it.

Faerel
01-29-2005, 03:38 AM
<DIV>Ok then it seems each char must have a hidden luck attribute then.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would like to know what you are making. What level you are and what level the crafted item is.</DIV> <DIV>Then try making spells at your level, because when each failure takes away 30% of a quality bar in durabilty, I want to know how you get that durability back after 5 succesive failures in a row as I have been getting often. :smileyhappy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>[edit] spelling</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Faerel on <span class=date_text>01-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:40 PM</span>

Kwoung
01-29-2005, 04:19 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Faerel wrote:<BR> <DIV>Ok then it seems each char must have a hidden luck attribute then.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would like to know what you are making. What level you are and what level the crafted item is.</DIV> <DIV>Then try making spells at your level, because when each failure takes away 30% of a quality bar in durabilty, I want to know how you get that durability back after 5 succesive failures in a row as I have been getting often. :smileyhappy: <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>23 Sage making even level spells... 100% success rate.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>First off.. like my explaination suggested, if the session for that item starts off bad, it will continue to go bad and you are better off cancelling it before you make the crude item. That said, when I am getting towards pristine and get multiple fails and losses in durabiloity, so much as to even make my pristine bar disappear.. I cast all 3 tier 2 buffs each round to bring the pristine bar back and bring durability back to an acceptable level... then I go back to focusing on balancing the durability and progress buffs to complete the item.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes, it is a pain, yes it can take 5 or more minutes to make a single spell at App 4 quality.. but you can make it happen pretty much every single time. Using the same system on my craftsman.. I am able to make pristine food items 2-3 levels higher (recipe cons orange) than my skill 95% of the time.</DIV>

Hechicera
01-29-2005, 09:53 AM
<blockquote><hr>Kwoung wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR><DIV>Yes, it is a pain, yes it can take 5 or more minutes to make a single spell at App 4 quality.. but you can make it happen pretty much every single time. Using the same system on my craftsman.. I am able to make pristine food items 2-3 levels higher (recipe cons orange) than my skill 95% of the time.</DIV><hr></blockquote>But, is it fun?

Kwoung
01-29-2005, 10:34 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Hechicera wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>But, is it fun?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Not in the slightest... making food and working to provisioner with my alt is fun and rewarding... sage blows though IMHO.<BR> </BLOCKQUOTE>

FunG
01-29-2005, 10:34 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Hechicera wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kwoung wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <DIV>Yes, it is a pain, yes it can take 5 or more minutes to make a single spell at App 4 quality.. but you can make it happen pretty much every single time. Using the same system on my craftsman.. I am able to make pristine food items 2-3 levels higher (recipe cons orange) than my skill 95% of the time.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>But, is it fun?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Is it fun? hmm some times no, and some times Yes. I like how it is set up. as I work in tradeskill halls I see the same ppl taking dmg over and over.  I don't see anyway they can be making pristine items.  The only thing I would change is to do more health damage and for thoes that die in a tradeskill hall to get tradeskill debt. even I miss maybe once every 2 days, but for thoes that miss 3 times in a row, and higher tradeskill lvl I would like to see them pay for shamming. so not as far as 1 miss to kill your but 2-3 in a row should.

MaximumCarna
01-29-2005, 08:49 PM
<DIV>I haven't seen a good agruement on why a table should do any damage to you.</DIV> <DIV>When you miss an event rather than risk taking damage you should get a fail. </DIV> <DIV>When you do an event you shouldn't get a fail.</DIV> <DIV>Its pretty simple really. Do events and have a better chance to do pristine or ignore than and lose lots of dur and progress.</DIV> <DIV>Right now only the forge kills, so the threat of not doing an event for the other tables is hallow.</DIV>

FunG
01-30-2005, 02:27 PM
<DIV>I can see a forge killing as in, well getting a sliver vs getting hand in melted iron. hmm.  but yes you sould fail for missing and better at pristine on doing an event.</DIV>

Hro
01-31-2005, 01:07 AM
<DIV>I love the Fact no one stinky Dev has come here to say a singal word....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SOE and it crack pot of Dev and there monkies, are lacking in a concept of real time reaction and have to tell us what there plans are and how it should really work.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It is so sad the SOE tryed to Re-do crafting 3 week before Gold. and we wonder why we have so many issues.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They have no idea how they want it to work and just expect us to deal with what they give us... We are paying for there Learning and devloment time.This blows large chunks of corn......</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SOE To get off your lazy butts and explain how you want this crafting to wrok, so the rest of us can move on and forward at a pace we want....</DIV>

Kwoung
01-31-2005, 02:52 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Hrogi wrote:<BR> <DIV>I love the Fact no one stinky Dev has come here to say a singal word....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SOE and it crack pot of Dev and there monkies, are lacking in a concept of real time reaction and have to tell us what there plans are and how it should really work.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It is so sad the SOE tryed to Re-do crafting 3 week before Gold. and we wonder why we have so many issues.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They have no idea how they want it to work and just expect us to deal with what they give us... We are paying for there Learning and devloment time.This blows large chunks of corn......</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SOE To get off your lazy butts and explain how you want this crafting to wrok, so the rest of us can move on and forward at a pace we want....</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> They probably have not bothered because we already explained how it works.. in detail.. numerous times to you. If you still don't get it, that isn't SOE's fault.

FunG
02-01-2005, 12:00 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kwoung wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> They probably have not bothered because we already explained how it works.. in detail.. numerous times to you. If you still don't get it, that isn't SOE's fault.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>plz link this detail, as you know about how good the serach work, I would like to read this "how it works".<BR>

Kwoung
02-01-2005, 12:13 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> <HR> </P> <P>FunGUY wrote:</P> <P>plz link this detail, as you know about how good the serach work, I would like to read this "how it works".<BR><BR> <HR> </P></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Its about halfway down the first page of this thread and in a few other threads as well.. but to make finding it easy... here you go: <A href="http://www.eq2test.com/viewtopic.php?t=260" target=_blank>http://www.eq2test.com/viewtopic.php?t=260</A> <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

indiramourni
02-01-2005, 03:39 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kwoung wrote:<BR><BR> <DIV>23 Sage making even level spells... 100% success rate.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes, it is a pain, yes it can take 5 or more minutes to make a single spell at App 4 quality.. but you can make it happen pretty much every single time. Using the same system on my craftsman.. I am able to make pristine food items 2-3 levels higher (recipe cons orange) than my skill 95% of the time.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Do you think this is what the devs want, Kwoung?   100% success rate was possible prior to the major crafting changes.  Sounds to me like more tweaking is in store.   How would you feel about an 80% success rate, Kwoung?  Could you live with that?<BR>

Kwoung
02-01-2005, 03:52 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> indiramourning wrote:<BR> <BR>Do you think this is what the devs want, Kwoung?   100% success rate was possible prior to the major crafting changes.  Sounds to me like more tweaking is in store.   How would you feel about an 80% success rate, Kwoung?  Could you live with that?<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I have no idea exactly what the devs want... and how I feel about it is immaterial really.. I just test what they put out there. I will say though, that it takes considerably longer, more interaction and skill with the crafting session to achieve those results than before... which is what I think they were shooting for.</P> <P>I commonly lose and bring back the pristine bar numerous times now per spell. Of course I am shooting for pristine also... so I am willing to take the 5-7 minutes per spell to achieve that. If you are just looking to gring XP, just use all the progress buffs and take what you get, chances are it will almost never be pristine, and you can cut the crafting time per spell way down.</P>

MaximumCarna
02-01-2005, 06:32 AM
<DIV>I don't think there is anything wrong with a 100% success rate (on whites), if you used skill to get it.</DIV> <DIV>I do find something wrong when you are forced to 80% not because of lack of skill but because of imposed 'fail safes' built in. Chain fails, large power requirements, and the rest don't make for a better system.</DIV> <DIV>Also because this is a level based system, it should become easier and therefor success more likely the bigger the difference between your level and the recepie.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To start to fix crafting they need to:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Have events matter. Drop the hp loss and give a fail for a missed event. Give a success or at least not a failure when you make an event.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Make skill matter. Make it be the more important to making a pristine than random luck.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Give crafters something to do other than just press 3 buttons. Limiting choices does not increase skill.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Make the tables balanced. I don't know why the same buff settings can't be used for all the tables. Balance the recepies as well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Make all trade classes be able to solo. The xp gain and products should be better when they 'group', but a sage should be able to level without needing to beg half a dozen other people.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Let people know what an item does. Potions are a joke. How long do they last? Is pristine better than crude? How is it better? Let me know before I make it what the difference is between a crude axe and a pristine. Actually knowing what use an item is, may cause people to choose to not always try to make a pristine.</DIV><p>Message Edited by MaximumCarnage on <span class=date_text>01-31-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:52 PM</span>

Kwoung
02-01-2005, 06:36 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MaximumCarnage wrote:<BR> <DIV>Also because this is a level based system, it should become easier and therefor success more likely the bigger the difference between your level and the recepie. <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>That is exactly how it is to me (on Test)... on lower level recipies I can blast through them in about 4 -5 ticks by using all 3 progress buffs and still get a pristine item for my efforts. I lose almost no durability on grey/green items.</DIV>

MaximumCarna
02-01-2005, 09:58 PM
<DIV>Not all tables are equal, but in any event easy or not green/gray recepies isn't a big problem. It is a bit annoying to struggle through a green or get chain fails.</DIV> <DIV>It might be recepies that need adjusting. Like the teas they making easier. I know the lvl 30 reagent has some strange fail/gain effect. It doesn't seem likely a bar and a half wipe even after using full dur buffs is intended.</DIV>