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View Full Version : Group Con based on Highest level, causing mod to go gray ?!?


Dominordrian
01-12-2005, 04:35 AM
<DIV>Ok Last night We decided to do some decaying skeletons.  I'm a level 15 predator, and I was initially grouped with a 14 cleric, a 13 summoner, a 14 brawler, and a 15 crusader.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The average level of the group was 14.2   The decaying skeles were blue to yellow double arrow guys.  the zombie things were blue to white solo (No arrows) They were tough but we were still pulling mostly non stop.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A guildmate wants to join us.  He's a level 19 cleric.  We though SURE more healing to help out.    As soon as he joined the group there were no more blue mobs.  They were only White and gray.  (I even checked on tracking)  Ther were no Blue Green or even RED Mobs.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Whats up with that.  The average level of the group didn't change by much if any.  it went from 14 to 15.  ONE LEVEL.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I also discovered that those gray double arrow skele's were actually the blues we were fighting before the 19 cleric joined us.    Someone told me to hold the cursor over the targer window.  It said that Gray skele we were fighting was level 14   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One level below the average level of the group a ^^ gray !?!?!?! </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What is that?!?!?!?</DIV>

CireNamyn
01-12-2005, 05:09 AM
<DIV>You have a question....I think I have the answer for you. The graying out of mobs is based on the highest lvl in the group to prevent power leveling. PLing was and still is running rampant in EQ1. You have a lvl 15 char going all out against lvl 20+ mobs with a lvl 65 guildie sitting there healing and buffing him up. There's no real skill required there and it takes the fun out of the game. And you really can't base the mob colors off of average lvl of a group now because of the following example.... say you have 5 lvl 15 chars and 1 lvl 25 tank. The total lvls is 100 with an average of just under 17. I have a lvl 26 guardian right now and I can solo 17-20 mobs pretty easily....so all I would have to do is have 5 lvl 15s group with me and they could just sit there while I rack up xp for all of us. And I think the gray-out lvl is 5 lvls below you if i'm not mistaken.....at least it is at my current lvl and has been for a bit. Personally I don't like all of the aspects of the current system....the way that a 19 ^^ mob grays out at the same time as a regular 19 mob in particular (i think ^^ mobs should stay green a couple lvls longer than solo mobs). But, overall, the system works out the way it should. I'm sorry you had to run into this problem....I know it can be a real drag. Happy hunting in the future.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Barrison Selmy</DIV> <DIV>26 Barbarian Guardian</DIV>

Dominordrian
01-12-2005, 05:50 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CireNamyn wrote:<BR> <DIV>You have a question....I think I have the answer for you. The graying out of mobs is based on the highest lvl in the group to prevent power leveling. PLing was and still is running rampant in EQ1. You have a lvl 15 char going all out against lvl 20+ mobs with a lvl 65 guildie sitting there healing and buffing him up. There's no real skill required there and it takes the fun out of the game. And you really can't base the mob colors off of average lvl of a group now because of the following example.... say you have 5 lvl 15 chars and 1 lvl 25 tank. The total lvls is 100 with an average of just under 17. I have a lvl 26 guardian right now and I can solo 17-20 mobs pretty easily....so all I would have to do is have 5 lvl 15s group with me and they could just sit there while I rack up xp for all of us. And I think the gray-out lvl is 5 lvls below you if i'm not mistaken.....at least it is at my current lvl and has been for a bit. Personally I don't like all of the aspects of the current system....the way that a 19 ^^ mob grays out at the same time as a regular 19 mob in particular (i think ^^ mobs should stay green a couple lvls longer than solo mobs). But, overall, the system works out the way it should. I'm sorry you had to run into this problem....I know it can be a real drag. Happy hunting in the future.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Barrison Selmy</DIV> <DIV>26 Barbarian Guardian</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>That hurts more in this situation.  We invited the 19 cleric for two reasons.  </P> <P>1.  He is a guildie  (The entire group was part of my guild)</P> <P>2.  He also needed the decaying skeletons for a quest just like the rest of us.  </P> <P> </P> <P>The real solution would be to put a level cap on the difference in levels in a group, and then base the con on the average level.  </P> <P> </P> <P>As for power leveling.  This shows it can be done.  Who cares if a few mob we kill are gray.  The experiance from them is NOTHING compared to the exp recieved from the quest.</P> <P> </P> <P>The best thing they did for power leveling was to lock encounters.  Now if they prevent a person too high or low from joining the group(Allow a 5 or 6 level range) and con based on average level That would be the best solution.</P> <P>So as it is, it discourages guild members to group and raid together is there is more than a 1 or two level difference.  Some members of the guild will ALWAYS be left out.  It also discourages me from recruiting guild members that are more than a couple of levels away from the average level of my guild.  </P> <P>Yeah real nice system.  It does more harm than good.</P>

hylozoist
01-12-2005, 10:25 AM
<DIV>Yes, levels are very narrowly tailored in this game.  If you notice, each level is a massive increase in power - both in terms of dps (both spell and combat) / hit / accuracy and defense.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>While I agree that two or three levels is probably narrow in the early levels, in later stages you usually can tell the difference between a higher level and lower level player (even just one level), despite what kind of gear they might be wearing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The benefit to having group cons partially based on highest level is that you can access deeper parts of the zone with them, instead of having to trod through many, many greys.  Further, the grey mobs can be done solo by the person to whom they are grey usually.  Thus they don't need the group, although sometimes the group may need them.  Thus, there are some benefits despite the drawbacks. </DIV>

Cah
01-12-2005, 12:23 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dominordrian wrote:<BR> <BR> <P> </P> <P>The real solution would be to put a level cap on the difference in levels in a group, and then base the con on the average level.  </P> <P>- lol. You're saying that Mobs shouldn't have a level on their own but based on yours? Sorry, but that doesn't make any sense.<BR></P> <P> </P> <P> Who cares if a few mob we kill are gray.  The experiance from them is NOTHING compared to the exp recieved from the quest.</P> <P>- Yeah. So go on kill the greys... but why do you first complain about it when you now say that it doesn't matter?^^</P> <P> </P> <P>The best thing they did for power leveling was to lock encounters.  Now if they prevent a person too high or low from joining the group(Allow a 5 or 6 level range) and con based on average level That would be the best solution.</P> <P>- What does locking encounters do against PLing? And still.. this would make ALL Mobs in the game the SAME level and you would be able to fight EVERY Mob in the game with a lvl 5 Group. Silly.</P> <P> </P> <P>So as it is, it discourages guild members to group and raid together is there is more than a 1 or two level difference.  Some members of the guild will ALWAYS be left out.  It also discourages me from recruiting guild members that are more than a couple of levels away from the average level of my guild.  </P> <P>- Right, it IS difficult to group with people 5 Levels above or below you... it's not only the highlvl getting less XP because he's killing greens, but also the lowlvl getting less XP because he's just to low compared to the other guy.</P> <P> </P> <P>Yeah real nice system.  It does more harm than good.</P> <P>- Nope, it doesn't. This game is not designed to have People 20% above your level help you levelling. It is designed to group with people your level to get as much XP as possible while being a challenge. If you want it as easy as possible, you have to live with the drawbacks. </P> <P>I love it <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> <HR> </P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

Iseabeil
01-12-2005, 08:31 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <P>That hurts more in this situation.  We invited the 19 cleric for two reasons.  </P> <P>1.  He is a guildie  (The entire group was part of my guild)</P> <P>2.  He also needed the decaying skeletons for a quest just like the rest of us.  </P> <P> </P> <P>The real solution would be to put a level cap on the difference in levels in a group, and then base the con on the average level.  </P> <P> </P> <P>As for power leveling.  This shows it can be done.  Who cares if a few mob we kill are gray.  The experiance from them is NOTHING compared to the exp recieved from the quest.</P> <P> </P> <P>The best thing they did for power leveling was to lock encounters.  Now if they prevent a person too high or low from joining the group(Allow a 5 or 6 level range) and con based on average level That would be the best solution.</P> <P>So as it is, it discourages guild members to group and raid together is there is more than a 1 or two level difference.  Some members of the guild will ALWAYS be left out.  It also discourages me from recruiting guild members that are more than a couple of levels away from the average level of my guild.  </P> <P>Yeah real nice system.  It does more harm than good.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Unles they removed it after beta, there IS a max lvl cap, 6 lvls. if the group has higher than 6 lvls from lowest to highest member, there will be no quest updates, and ofcourse no exp.</DIV>

Feaw
01-12-2005, 08:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> <HR> </P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Unles they removed it after beta, there IS a max lvl cap, 6 lvls. if the group has higher than 6 lvls from lowest to highest member, there will be no quest updates, and ofcourse no exp.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Im pretty sure its 5 now.  When my wizard was working on her subclass quest she got no credit when grouped with a player 6 levels above her but did get credit with one that was 5 levels above her.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for the orginal post, yes thats the way it is.  Its to keep poeple honest and prevent power leveling.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Deltree_c
01-12-2005, 09:16 PM
<DIV>It can be advantageous too.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When my sorcerer betrayed, instead of trying to run the gauntlet known as Nektulous Forest, he politely asked a high level to join a group with him so stuff would go gray and leave him alone while we made his way tot he dock.  This could be seen as an exploit, but it's not a bug, it's a design feature. What they should have done is make enemies agro based on level comparison, not on con.  So that 20 something owlbear which is gray to my 15 sorcerer would still attack, but still not yield anything when defeated.  Of course, I can offer this solution now, as I'm out of the forest and done betraying for now. Two good lizards is plenty.</DIV>

Canadianbigshot
01-12-2005, 09:20 PM
<DIV>As far as the no quest updates for groups with a greater than 5 level difference, that is not entirely true... last night doing the Swen Bag of Evil Eye Heritage, we (a group with an average of 32) could not defeat the big demon (40^^ Necro) at the end... so we dropped our two lowest members and brought in a pair of ringers (41 Zerker and 38 Templar). We still recieved the update for the quest... our highest member besides the ringers was a 33 Paladin. Perhaps if the Zerker was 46 the quest may not recieve an update? Then again, I haven't a trial that can prove that...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just my two cents.</DIV>

44Dragon
01-12-2005, 10:09 PM
<DIV>Part of what made EQ so easy to draw friends into was that I could take one of my higher level toons out and explore with them.  Yes, there was a bit of power leveling involved.  That's one of the perks of joining a game where you know people playing already.  Anyway, my main point is that with EQ2 I have only been playing a month, and already I am having one toon space set aside to help newbie friends get caught up to my main.  This is basically an Isle of Refuge toon for me since the running around the city parts I think are best done on your own (in order to learn your new surroundings), but it would be nice to be able to help my new friends out a little so that we could adventure together more often in the same group.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Xar
01-12-2005, 10:50 PM
Personally if they developed a Mentoring or Squire system Like in City of Heroes this would solve the problem. If you are not familiar with it, there is a system in place where any Player 10 levels above can Mentor a lower character. While in a relatively small radius extending out from their mentor they get temporarily brought up to the level of the Higher PC. So if the mob cons blue to the level 20 it temporarily cons blue to the level 10 only while in the effects of the mentor. If the Sidekick leaves the mentors protective area blamo the mob goes red again and squishes the lowbie. (Kind of like what EQ2 has but I dont think it is working the same way from my experience.) I think a squire system would work in this game as there would be no way to powerlevel (Lowbie is still only getting standard XP for fighting resonable fights). I personally have noticed, they say you can group up to 7 levels difference before you get the no XP message. Mobs however that you could handle go gray and the orange or Red mobs which are most likely white or lower to the higher player resist constantly and dont yield hardly any XP. This discourages the Low character from playing with their friends who may have more time to play and level in the game and have lept too far ahead. Not saying allow powerleveling but I am saying develop a way for High and Low levels to play together without exploitation not just the 7 level cap. Otherwise the low player keeps getting further and further behind and will ultimately leave because they can not play with their friends. Just my 2 cents.

Dominordrian
01-12-2005, 11:15 PM
<DIV>So basically what I'm hearing is that if you are more than 5 levels different from the guild average, you might as well go find another guild.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That does NOTHING to promote guild loyalty.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There is already a detriment to a guild when a patron leaves.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not there is a detriment to a guild that had a wider level range.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With the changes to the ^^ mobs, even gray mobs are a significant challenge to a solo char.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The way I understand the ^^ mobs, their power / con is based on a group.  so a lvl 15 ^^ mob would be about even to a group of all level 15's right?    </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now I bet that same level 15^^ would kick some serious butt on a group consisting of 1 lvl 16 and 5 lvl 10's, as it should be.  The group level is too far below that of the mob.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I personally think that the con range is too tight.  When a green solo mob drops a RED quest.  Something is not right.  (That is a separate issue.  But extending the con range may be the simplest solution)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Banditman
01-13-2005, 12:32 AM
<DIV>There was a precedent in EQLive for this.  If you'll remember, when in an LDoN group, you had to be within 7 levels from lowest to highest members.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Vyrance
01-13-2005, 01:02 AM
<DIV>level spread in this game is based on 25% of the highest level person in the group, i believe.  so the higher your group becomes, the larger the spread will be.</DIV>

44Dragon
01-13-2005, 01:17 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Banditman wrote:<BR> <DIV>There was a precedent in EQLive for this.  If you'll remember, when in an LDoN group, you had to be within 7 levels from lowest to highest members.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> yeah, i hated LDON for this very reason.  It was a great idea that just went down fast when I had to sit around for hours waiting to find enough people within my level range to adventure with. 

Vatec
01-13-2005, 02:08 AM
<blockquote><hr>Cahan wrote:<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Dominordrian wrote:<DIV></div><P> </p><P>The real solution would be to put a level cap on the difference in levels in a group, and then base the con on the average level. </p><P>- lol. You're saying that Mobs shouldn't have a level on their own but based on yours? Sorry, but that doesn't make any sense.</p><p>----Um, no, Dominordrian said "con," not "level." IE, a level 15 mob should con WHITE to a party with an average level of 15, even if it consists of three 10s and three 20s. I don't necessarily agree with the idea, but it's nowhere near as silly as your interpretation (in which the mob's LEVEL would change)</p><P> </p><P> Who cares if a few mob we kill are gray. The experiance from them is NOTHING compared to the exp recieved from the quest.</p><P>- Yeah. So go on kill the greys... but why do you first complain about it when you now say that it doesn't matter?^^</p><P> </p><P>The best thing they did for power leveling was to lock encounters. Now if they prevent a person too high or low from joining the group(Allow a 5 or 6 level range) and con based on average level That would be the best solution.</p><P>- What does locking encounters do against PLing? And still.. this would make ALL Mobs in the game the SAME level and you would be able to fight EVERY Mob in the game with a lvl 5 Group. Silly.</p><p>----Again, you are misinterpreting Dominordrian's suggestion: "con" is not the same thing as "level." A level 15 mob would still con RED to a level 5 group. In fact, this is the biggest flaw in the suggestion, because a level 5 group that had five level 3s and a level 15 should have that mob con as WHITE, not RED (because it is, theoretically, an even match for the level 15 solo).</p><P> </p><P>So as it is, it discourages guild members to group and raid together is there is more than a 1 or two level difference. Some members of the guild will ALWAYS be left out. It also discourages me from recruiting guild members that are more than a couple of levels away from the average level of my guild. </p><P>- Right, it IS difficult to group with people 5 Levels above or below you... it's not only the highlvl getting less XP because he's killing greens, but also the lowlvl getting less XP because he's just to low compared to the other guy.</p><P> </p><P>Yeah real nice system. It does more harm than good.</p><P>- Nope, it doesn't. This game is not designed to have People 20% above your level help you levelling. It is designed to group with people your level to get as much XP as possible while being a challenge. If you want it as easy as possible, you have to live with the drawbacks. </p><P>I love it <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><P><HR></p></blockquote><DIV></div><hr></blockquote><p>Message Edited by Vatec on <span class=date_text>01-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:11 PM</span>

Dyvan
01-13-2005, 02:37 AM
<blockquote><hr>Feawin wrote:<BLOCKQUOTE><BLOCKQUOTE><P><HR></P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><DIV>Unles they removed it after beta, there IS a max lvl cap, 6 lvls. if the group has higher than 6 lvls from lowest to highest member, there will be no quest updates, and ofcourse no exp.</DIV><BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Im pretty sure its 5 now. When my wizard was working on her subclass quest she got no credit when grouped with a player 6 levels above her but did get credit with one that was 5 levels above her.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>As for the orginal post, yes thats the way it is. Its to keep poeple honest and prevent power leveling.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV> </DIV><hr></blockquote>The actual method for determining whether you will get quest rewards in a group is (.75 * Highest Level in the group) rounded up.50 * .75 = 37.5 So you would need to be 38.40 * .75 = 30And so on.

Kylan
01-13-2005, 06:36 AM
Bah, I'd much prefer to have high levels grey things out than change the system. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Being able to grey con things out to help with shard retrievals is much more useful than the few situations like you found yourself in. If things get greyed out, just hunt more powerful things. Or have your guildie who out leveled everyone else take a break for a day while the rest of you catch up.As for the quest, even grey con mobs often count for quest credit, so no problem there.

Linolil
01-13-2005, 11:27 AM
<blockquote><hr>Kylania wrote:As for the quest, even grey con mobs often count for quest credit, so no problem there.<hr></blockquote>Except for those quests, like the language ones, that only drop from chests.

CerraWhisperwind
01-13-2005, 07:38 PM
Those items are tradeable however, or the finished product is in the case of weapon or armor quest drops.