PDA

View Full Version : Instead of app4 a pristine combine should be adept1


ekiand
12-28-2004, 01:02 AM
<DIV>I really don't understand the logic behind the addition of app4. I understand why it was added, to make quality matter for a sage, but it does nothing to address the problems of a sage. Well I think my suggestion nicely fixes both issues. A sage can now compete with adept1 drops and also make the quality of his craft matter.</DIV>

Armeng
12-28-2004, 01:29 AM
<DIV>I have to agree on the adept 1 books, however imo the drop rates are too high on them is really the problem</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

PhourZwanZig
12-28-2004, 02:50 AM
<DIV>To high.. LOL.. my lvl 20 (almost 21) necromancer only has on adept 1 skill, and I do have a hard time even seeing those skills for sale.. So I wouldnt say they are too High drop rate.. To me it seems that Some just drop more than others, so it just might need a tweak in the randomness of which Adepts drop..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edit.. As far as the App4 spells.. I love this change.. Now if I cant find my drops (well when this hits live, my test char still has alot of App1-3 spells and 1 App 4) my necro can upgrade her spells to gain some ground.. being 20 w/o Adepts is making her a lil weak</DIV><p>Message Edited by PhourZwanZig on <span class=date_text>12-27-2004</span> <span class=time_text>01:52 PM</span>

Di0Xi
12-28-2004, 02:53 AM
I got about half my skills 1-29 in adept1 but above that I've only found 2.. and I've been searching for 31-45 skills for a few days now on brokers and there really aren't that many. Edit: Doh, sorry didn't notice was posting on tester forum :p, I just clicked the title from outside since sounded interesting.. but I'm talking of the non-test servers when I quote my experiance with drops. It may have changed. Anyway.. I don't want crafters to make adept1 that would make the drops pretty much useless most of the time.<p>Message Edited by Di0XiDe on <span class=date_text>12-27-2004</span> <span class=time_text>10:03 PM</span>

ekiand
12-28-2004, 07:37 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Di0XiDe wrote:<BR><BR>Anyway.. I don't want crafters to make adept1 that would make the drops pretty much useless most of the time. <P>Message Edited by Di0XiDe on <SPAN class=date_text>12-27-2004</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:03 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>How is being able to craft the exact same thing that drops making drops useless. All this deos is make crafted spells/skills useful. If you want an upgrade you get  options from this:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) Buy from crafter</DIV> <DIV>2) Buy from other player that found a scroll drop</DIV> <DIV>3) Wait and hope you can find a possible drop</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>App4 does nothing to make the crafted skills viable with the adept drops and I thought the whole intent was to make the crafters an integral part of EQ2. As of now they have been hampered. bugged, and marginalized. Another option would to have the crafters instill magic on the adepts so you still need a crafter to be able to use that adept1 drop. As of know the adept1 drops are stifling crafters the Sage in particular.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The reason you can't find necro adept drops is because they don't drop at all.</DIV>

MadChapeli
12-28-2004, 09:32 AM
<DIV>While I do not play on test, I've been thinking a lot on this issue of App 4 and Adept 1.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think that Adept 1 drops need to be reduced ONLY for those that have a high rate of drop atm. There are some that seem very rare and some that seem very common and I think it should be an even chance for anything when it comes to books. Now that makes Adept 1 book drops uncommon/rare. Now, as for App 4, I think if it was either as powerful as Adept 1 or just a nice middleground between Adept and App 3 we'd all be happy. The thing is though, that Adept 1 tends to give some major bonuses that App 3 lacks, and will likely not be included in App 4. The question here is why is it that adventuring for skills, killing hundreds</DIV> <DIV>of mobs in hopes of finding your skill/spell Adept is favored over the crafting of it? Crafting is perhaps the most tedious and expensive means to gain Adept quality. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not only does the economy inflate the prices of rare components (which I can understand.. they are rare after all) but it makes it impossible for some of us (like me, who on live cannot find Tellurian Soldier in adept form in any method other than crafting.. which means that poor little me will likely never see it) to ever obtain. I think that high level Artisans should be able to gain a skill that I'll just call "Keen Eye" that only increases as your artisan level increases. This skill would allow a bonus to be given to the odds of finding a rare component. A level 30 Artisan should have a far easier time finding rares in Tier 1 zones than a level 5 Artisan. Now if that same 30 artisan went to a Tier 5 zone, they would have almost no chance at finding a rare. They're dealing with materials far outside of their knowledge in higher tiers, and dealing with materials they've mastered and know intimately. The bonus would be small, but any bonus will be helpful to those people who spend so much time tradeskilling and keep those who have no interest in tradeskilling from hawking rares to those who can really use it (to a greater degree).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I feel that Sages should be capable of producing any quality book up to Adept 4 (Master tomes are relics from the past, there will be no argument from me that Sages should never be able to craft these), as long as they can attain the proper materials. If recipes were added so that Uncommon harvests (not presently in game) which are far more common than rares, but far less common than common, they could be used to make Adept 1 quality, where Adept 1 would be Pristine, App 4 would be 3rd and so on. That would add a diversity to the game that I think Sages truly deserve. Few people choose that path simply because it's difficult to raise and even more difficult to profit from.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I mostly am hoping to see some change made that will help balance the economy better by making access to Adept 1 for everyone more possible.</DIV>

Syanis
12-28-2004, 11:13 AM
<DIV>I thought of this before also. It could work but the possible downfall is since now we'd be craftin an adept 1 (needa have it look like a normal spell scroll imo) issue will arise that may lower the value of what we craft adept 1 thats a common drop just person xyz couldn't find it at the time. Now we craft a bunch of adept 1's n toss em on our vendor for the night.... someone else throws up adept 1's droped  for the seeming normal price of adept 1's being 15-20sp for 20-29..... now when a 20-29 spell/skill costs us 40spish to make and we charge 50-60sp for end product we're looked at as overcharging majorly cause its just an adept 1 ... drop right? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe a better way is having app 4 equal to adept 1's (and post it specifically from SoE on equivalency). really thou just needa tone down the adept 1 drops majorly thou.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Syanis 37 sage Steamfont</DIV>

stewi
12-28-2004, 01:43 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Syanis wrote:<BR> <DIV>I thought of this before also. It could work but the possible downfall is since now we'd be craftin an adept 1 (needa have it look like a normal spell scroll imo) issue will arise that may lower the value of what we craft adept 1 thats a common drop just person xyz couldn't find it at the time. Now we craft a bunch of adept 1's n toss em on our vendor for the night.... someone else throws up adept 1's droped  for the seeming normal price of adept 1's being 15-20sp for 20-29..... now when a 20-29 spell/skill costs us 40spish to make and we charge 50-60sp for end product we're looked at as overcharging majorly cause its just an adept 1 ... drop right? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe a better way is having app 4 equal to adept 1's (and post it specifically from SoE on equivalency). really thou just needa tone down the adept 1 drops majorly thou.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Syanis 37 sage Steamfont</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV> </DIV> <P>that is only a downfall if the sage doesnt do his homework. even if you could craft adept1's for every skill, no sage on my server would even try to compete with certain book drops. for instance, on the market now are about 30 adept1's for daunting gaze, which is an enchanter drop. since enchanters are somewhat rare and the book drops at a ludicrous rate, it would be silly to make that spell.. </P> <P>of course, if you do your homework, asking classes what they need, you will notice many skills drop only rarely, or never at all.. i would pay a gold or more for an adept1 entrance if it was on the market. trust me, i know which of my spells are rare drops, and will pay what i have to to get them. sages would lose no sales unless they made nondesireable spells.</P> <P>that said, i too would like to see them change it to crafting app2 for base, adept1 for pristine. they could even change the rare spells that way too.. adept2 for base, master1 for pristine.</P>

Anlari
12-28-2004, 06:15 PM
<DIV>I'm with the original poster on this.  The number of times I have made a "pristine" quality scroll is rare indeed.  This means that as long as app 4 spells can be made, then that is all that will sell.  Noone will want anything lower then app 4.  With the rate of success in getting an app 4 so low, I honestly think this make most of what we scribe completely useless.  So then we have our few app 4 spells, they now have to compete with the Adept 1 drops.  I know when I'm not playing my crafter now a days, that I no longer even worry about App spells most of the time.  I would rather wait and save and buy them off vendors or try and find a drop of Adept.  I have 5 characters currently (yes I pay the extra for the extra slots, SOE got me) and I have nearly every ability on each of them at adept 1.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All in all, this is an upgrade that is mearly a smoke screen and not a fix for the problem at all.  It does nothing realy to help scribes, and does far more to hurt them in my opinion.</DIV>

kata
12-28-2004, 06:49 PM
<DIV>As I understand it, some people find out the mobs that are more likely to drop adept1 books, disable adventurer xp gain, and then start farming them.  A simple "fix" for that would be this: If anyone in the group has disabled xp gain, the mob does not drop a chest (in other words, it would be like killing greys.)  Part two: the chest never "unlocks" to people outside the group (yes it sucks, but it prevents the "guy standing next to it" scenario and keeps in line the idea of "risk vs. reward", that you didn't "risk" the encounter therefore you can't just wait around for the reward.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for app2 through app4, I'm ambivilent.  If it results in "shaped ink" (along with one hopes quills and paper) being for sale on tradeskill instance vendors so sages can at least skillup and levelup and do wholesaler quests.  Since the best possible result for shaped ink would be an app2 spell, hardly marketable <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, this would allow sages to gain levels without going broke.</DIV>

Shazzbott_Feldercarb
12-28-2004, 07:20 PM
Right now, with crude ink, i can make an spp3 spell on live. This is the only tradeskil that does not have a scaleing quality level. This change does nothing more then make scribing spells act the same as all the other tradeskills.This isn't a change to the way spells power up, it has no bearing on Adepts. It simply makes the scroll/rune/essence skills work the same as all the other tradeskills.As for drop rate for adepts, that is something different.Just my 2cpShazz

Lancealittle
12-28-2004, 08:30 PM
<DIV>Don't forget how the items scale. Crafters can already make an item better than the group mob drop with Adept 3. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Apprentice 3 (and now 4) are player crafted items made from common components. That's above store purchased spells (app2) but below items crafted from rare resources. That fits in with how items from other crafters work as well. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The problem really lies in what's dropping the spells. Normal group mobs are dropping spells that are better than the common crafted item. You may upgrade a spell from a common mob drop, but if you get a sword or piece of armor it will  be junk compared to a similar level crafted item.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>App3 and 4 are fine the way they are, they just need to move adept 1 to named mobs. That would make them less common and not attainable by someone soloing green ^^. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They also can make it so adept dropped spells are no trade. With so many different types of spells, people may find 10 or more before they find one they can use themselves, and then they sell the rest on the market. If everyone is finding spells, then there are many more spells on the market than people who need them. That won't happen, because then they have to do that with all mob dropped items to be fair.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Feaw
12-28-2004, 09:08 PM
<DIV>If adept 1 and app 4 behave about the same then perhaps its an alternative to the drops and perhaps the avialability may shift.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Kwoung
12-28-2004, 10:30 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> katahn wrote:<BR> <DIV>As I understand it, some people find out the mobs that are more likely to drop adept1 books, disable adventurer xp gain, and then start farming them.  A simple "fix" for that would be this: If anyone in the group has disabled xp gain, the mob does not drop a chest (in other words, it would be like killing greys.) <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>That is a terrible idea... they already have TLC to deal with that, if someone wants to hunt for no XP in order to get something they need for themselves, a friend or to sell that is their business... they are giving up XP to do so, which is more than enough of a downside.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I personally disable XP on many occassions for many different reasons, the main one being the ability to let my friends catch up while still allowing me to help them do so. Us having to give up all chances of loot dropping would be a terrible thing. Not to mention getting stuff like language quests that require drops from chests to complete... I already screwed up and outleveled WC with only one page to go, I am not going to let that happen again even if I have to disable XP for days to get the drop.</DIV>

kata
12-30-2004, 12:01 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kwoung wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> katahn wrote:<BR> <DIV>As I understand it, some people find out the mobs that are more likely to drop adept1 books, disable adventurer xp gain, and then start farming them.  A simple "fix" for that would be this: If anyone in the group has disabled xp gain, the mob does not drop a chest (in other words, it would be like killing greys.) <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>That is a terrible idea... they already have TLC to deal with that, if someone wants to hunt for no XP in order to get something they need for themselves, a friend or to sell that is their business... they are giving up XP to do so, which is more than enough of a downside.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I personally disable XP on many occassions for many different reasons, the main one being the ability to let my friends catch up while still allowing me to help them do so. Us having to give up all chances of loot dropping would be a terrible thing. Not to mention getting stuff like language quests that require drops from chests to complete... I already screwed up and outleveled WC with only one page to go, I am not going to let that happen again even if I have to disable XP for days to get the drop.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I agree the TLC is annoying as all get out, it was the reason I had to give up on the orc language quest in the Wailing Caves.  But its like encounter locking prevents kill-stealing, and allows for better encounter tuning, or the fact that mobs away from their start point are highly unlikely to aggro passerbys unless attacked first preventing training.  They are measures meant to counteract a misuse of game features or other forms of griefing.  Disabling xp gain to farm mobs that drop good-value loot happens, if nothing else people can and did stay on the Isle of Refuge farming for rare artisan book drops.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The solution there was to remove them from the drop tables, which I think is a bit unfortunate.  It pretty much deprives the genuine newbie of the chance to discover a really cool item.  As I see it, the solution is either to move adept1 spell drops to the named++ group mobs for the level or level range, or leave them in and make it so they can't be farmed (or farmed for long or easily.)  Either way works.  Disabling chest drops or items from being in chests that aren't quest related, lore, nodrop, or some combination of the above, allows for avoiding the "get the named mob for the cool loot" mentality of EQLive but also blocks farming of sellables that can disrupt the economy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In other words, mobs wouldn't drop vendorable loot in chests, but would continue to drop items that were basically not vendorable at all and especially if they were quest related.  The farmers are driven out of business, and those using the disabled xp gain in a less disruptive fashion aren't penalized beyond the inability to farm easy cash.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The reason this issue is even noticable is because adept1 drops aren't vendorable for more than a few silver pieces, whereas comparable drops from mobs are vendorable for fairly decent coin, at least in comparison to what is on the market from players.  Since short of harvesting a rare, a sage cannot do better than apprentice 3 (apprentice 4 when the change goes live), adept drops are automatically the best thing typically on the market.  So, since they can be gotten "easily", aren't worth it to sell to NPCs, and will almost always be the best, you see a lot of them for sale.  But just because the problem is visible the most there, doesn't mean it isn't happening elsewhere.  After all, this is why we don't have coin loot (ie. people could disable xp gain and farm it forever and disrupt the economy.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What EQ2 does need, is some form of "sidekicking" or "reverse sidekicking" ala City of Heroes.  Something that allows friends to group together without needing to roll up an alt (assuming they have a free slot.)  That would get around the "need" to disable xp gain in order to not outlevel your friends.</DIV>

CerraWhisperwind
12-30-2004, 11:02 AM
<blockquote><hr>Anlarius wrote:<DIV>I'm with the original poster on this. The number of times I have made a "pristine" quality scroll is rare indeed. This means that as long as app 4 spells can be made, then that is all that will sell. Noone will want anything lower then app 4. With the rate of success in getting an app 4 so low, I honestly think this make most of what we scribe completely useless. So then we have our few app 4 spells, they now have to compete with the Adept 1 drops. Note from a level 18 scholar on test: for apprentice IV scrolls, once I became level 10 and got my second set of crafting buffs for scholar, I have never failed to get pristine on the spell combine, even when doing white con spells. My ink rate early on was about 75% pristine (requires 3 combines all pristine) but has improved to about 95% (1 in 20 not pristine). Even if you loose pristine during the crafting session, you can get it back with the 2nd set of buffs. People won't have any problems pumping out the pristine spells.

nicholaspoi
12-30-2004, 09:58 PM
<DIV>I totaly agree with the original post.  I am a level 24 sage (Enoel Everforst) and I can only make apprentice spells? that sell for less than adept1 spells? errrr why call me a sage then?  Hey Sony Online, why not just call me an apprentice duh!!!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Regards,</DIV> <DIV>Enoel</DIV> <DIV>Sage lev 24 (realy like apprentice level 24!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)</DIV> <DIV>Everfrost</DIV>

ekiand
01-01-2005, 01:45 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CerraWhisperwind wrote:<BR> <P>Note from a level 18 scholar on test: for apprentice IV scrolls, once I became level 10 and got my second set of crafting buffs for scholar, I have never failed to get pristine on the spell combine, even when doing white con spells. My ink rate early on was about 75% pristine (requires 3 combines all pristine) but has improved to about 95% (1 in 20 not pristine). Even if you loose pristine during the crafting session, you can get it back with the 2nd set of buffs. <BR><BR>People won't have any problems pumping out the pristine spells.<BR></P> <P> <HR> </P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I agree the pristines are fairly easy to make just a bit time consuming that's all and finding ink well...thats another thread. My main concern was although adding the app2-4 finally makes quality matter to a sage it does nothing to make thier products any more valuable. An app4 will sell no greater than an app3 and will be no easier or harder to craft. So the change has basically no effect. We still can not compete with the adept drops without crafting at a loss of money. The way I see it is our pristine combine has to be an adept1 in order to compete </P> <P>Or we posibly need new recipes that instill the magic into those adept drops so they are not usable until a sage "scribes' them if you will.</P>

CerraWhisperwind
01-01-2005, 10:01 AM
Perhaps they could remove adept drops and replace them with the rare mineral needed to make the adept inks?

EEGA314
01-01-2005, 03:24 PM
I think is is not necessary to change the drop rate of adept-1 spell book.We just need to change a basic setting in game system. Currently if youget an adept-1 spell book, you may sribe it and upgrade to adept-1 directlyeven you have only app-1 spell. If we put a limitation that only ppl alreadyscribe app4 (or app3) can upgrade their skill to adept-1, those low levelscrolls will have more value.

Captain_Xpendab
01-01-2005, 03:47 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> EEGA314 wrote:<BR>If we put a limitation that only ppl already scribe app4 (or app3) can upgrade their skill to adept-1, those low level scrolls will have more value.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I like this idea, though I can envision many people howling bloody murder about it, I think this could be a good solution in the long run.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edited to add: I do think that having pristines come out as Adept 1s is a better idea, but this just seems like a good alternative, assuming that App IVs are here to stay.</DIV><p>Message Edited by CaptXpendable on <span class=date_text>01-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:08 AM</span>

CerraWhisperwind
01-01-2005, 08:47 PM
They could come out with an item that "bumps" your skill level one "point", from app1 to app2, from app4 to adept1, etc, with a cap at adept2. I think more people would use these to bump app4 to adept1 than adept1 to adept2.They could even have multiple versions of it, items that only work if your current skill rank is apprentice, and another kind that works for adept...

Neko
01-02-2005, 04:56 AM
<DIV>How is either going to effect pricing?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Are we going to see Adept4 priced in the double gold digits?</DIV>

CerraWhisperwind
01-02-2005, 08:36 AM
There is no adept 4 from crafting. The only change was to the apprentice level. Any adept 4 would be quested for.

RedDragon
01-02-2005, 08:15 PM
<DIV>"If adept 1 and app 4 behave about the same then perhaps its an alternative to the drops and perhaps the avialability may shift."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Exactly, if app4 spells perform at a level near Adept I then they will still sell well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On some spells, people don't mind having a very small performance drop if they can upgrade their spell right away instead of waiting for someone to sell a rare Adept I spell.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Once you have a APP4, I doubt most people will upgrade to adept I from there, but that depends on the person and how much money they have <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm assuming that APP4 will perform close to an adept I spell. APPIII isn't that far behind already.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe APP4 are even are better compared to Adept I..... Has anyone actually tested APP4 effectiveness?</DIV><p>Message Edited by RedDragon44 on <span class=date_text>01-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:18 AM</span>

CerraWhisperwind
01-02-2005, 08:53 PM
Adept 1 is better than app4. Look at the first summoner pet. At apprentice level it is a beetle, at adept it is a spider. The category is the most important part of the spell level, the 1-4 within the category is just fine tuning.

Neko
01-02-2005, 10:21 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RedDragon44 wrote:<BR> <DIV>"If adept 1 and app 4 behave about the same then perhaps its an alternative to the drops and perhaps the avialability may shift."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Exactly, if app4 spells perform at a level near Adept I then they will still sell well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On some spells, people don't mind having a very small performance drop if they can upgrade their spell right away instead of waiting for someone to sell a rare Adept I spell.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Once you have a APP4, I doubt most people will upgrade to adept I from there, but that depends on the person and how much money they have <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm assuming that APP4 will perform close to an adept I spell. APPIII isn't that far behind already.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe APP4 are even are better compared to Adept I..... Has anyone actually tested APP4 effectiveness?</DIV> <P>Message Edited by RedDragon44 on <SPAN class=date_text>01-02-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:18 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>I agree.</P> <P>Adept1s should be better than App4s, and thus giving the option to the player - wait for the slightly better Adept1 or pay a player for App4 now.</P> <P>This allows the non-crafter player an alternative if App4 pricing begins to inflate.</P>

ekiand
01-03-2005, 12:15 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Neko wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RedDragon44 wrote:<BR> <DIV>"If adept 1 and app 4 behave about the same then perhaps its an alternative to the drops and perhaps the avialability may shift."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Exactly, if app4 spells perform at a level near Adept I then they will still sell well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On some spells, people don't mind having a very small performance drop if they can upgrade their spell right away instead of waiting for someone to sell a rare Adept I spell.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Once you have a APP4, I doubt most people will upgrade to adept I from there, but that depends on the person and how much money they have <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm assuming that APP4 will perform close to an adept I spell. APPIII isn't that far behind already.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe APP4 are even are better compared to Adept I..... Has anyone actually tested APP4 effectiveness?</DIV> <P>Message Edited by RedDragon44 on <SPAN class=date_text>01-02-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:18 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>I agree.</P> <P>Adept1s should be better than App4s, and thus giving the option to the player - wait for the slightly better Adept1 or pay a player for App4 now.</P> <P>This allows the non-crafter player an alternative if App4 pricing begins to inflate.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> That's the whole problem. The adept1's always cost less than the app3/app4 and drop like flies. No one buys the apps ever and no one has cash unless you farm or exploit. And adept1 is not a simple upgrade. The jump from app3 to adept1 is much more noticable then the jump form app1 to app3. Often times you get extra benefits from adept1 such as my Grim Spellbinder getting a new spell with the adept version over the app3 version.

CerraWhisperwind
01-03-2005, 08:10 PM
Why doesn't anyone have cash when they can do a 12 silver quest for just harvesting 15 items? Its not like you have to be a crafter to do this.

j
01-04-2005, 12:51 AM
<DIV>the problem is this hurts us sages even more .</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Look at it this way .</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You have some adept 1s selling as low as 10s and some up to 1.5g in the lvl 20-29  stages.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As a sage the best way to lvl is to make 1 of each spell  for discovery bonus .</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lets take a look at hte prices to make this </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ink of any quality lvl 20-30s </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>quills 20s </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>paper 15s </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>this is 55-65s just to make the spell</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Right now we get an app3 no matter what .  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To sell an app3 that has an adept 1 verson of it that drops  often  i have to price about 30s cheaper than the adept 1 .</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So if something is 1g . 100 silver , i need to price it at 70s . That means  i make 15-5s a spell .  I have to make about 100 spells to lvl </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>100 inks are 30g</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>100 quills are 10g</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>100 paper are 15g</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That means for every lvl i spend 55g to lvl.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>on average i make back 50 of that so far .</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>App4s will now make the majority of my spells   worthless. Wil lhave me spend more money as I now have to make pristine spells to sell any of them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is just a nerf for sages  </DIV>

Jooneau
01-04-2005, 01:05 AM
The prices you quoted for Tier 3 inks, papers, and quills are too high. Maybe if you are buying them off the market, you are going to pay those hyperinflated prices, but if you establish relationships with alchemists and woodworkers or have alts to do the subcombines for you, you can cut your production costs dramatically.

Venlo
01-04-2005, 07:29 AM
I have to say I'm kinda suprised to find that some sages are actually complaining, of all the strange things, about the drop rates of adepts. I've been getting annoyed by the difficulty of getting upgrades for my spells and have had to settle for App II for quite a few and would probably pay an arm and a leg just to get a few App III if some sages would actually make them. Do most sages just make random spells of every sort and expect to sell them no matter what? Do sages ever ask people what they have trouble finding upgrades for? Do sages actually speak to anyone or do they only try to craft?

j
01-04-2005, 09:45 AM
<DIV>Those are prices off broker and from friends.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can't expect to tell my friend hey make me inks for nothing instead of you getting xp .</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>as for us complaining against adept 1s.  I have 80% of my spells at adept 1 as a lvl 26 conjuror . Only my   creature spells have i spent more than 60 silver to upgrade with </DIV>

Laiina
01-04-2005, 12:09 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Armengar wrote:<BR> <DIV>I have to agree on the adept 1 books, however imo the drop rates are too high on them is really the problem</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Well, yes and no.</P> <P>The drop rate on SOME AD1 books seems very excessive - mainly those in the Scout/Bard line of spells. I see MANY more of these than all others combined.  I just checked the broker on Faydark, and of the hundreds (with many duplicates) listed, there are only 3 that a Cleric/Templar can use. Yet I see a large number for Bards.</P> <P>IMO, the whole spell drop rate thing has to be looked at - there is the general impression (not correct, IMO) that AD1 spells "drop all the time", so why should I buy APP3 or APP4 spells.</P> <P>My Test server character is not high enough yet to make much in the way of spells, so not sure what the situation is now on Adept player made spells.</P>

Laiina
01-04-2005, 12:15 PM
<DIV>IMO the way it should work is that APP1 spells are what you get when you learn a new spell. Adept 1 spells are what drop.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>APP2 to 4 spells, and Adept 2 to 4 spells are what crafters make. APP2 also sold at vendors. Player crafted will ALWAYS be at least level 2, with the "pristinea" version being level 4.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not quite sure how the Mastery spells are set up, so not sure how crafters fit into that part of the equation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And I think the drop rate on AD1 spells should be reduced. The market is flooded with them.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Laiina on <span class=date_text>01-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:16 AM</span>

CerraWhisperwind
01-04-2005, 08:33 PM
You can't say to reduce the drop rate based on the market. How many do YOU actually find that you can use? My shaman as found ONE in her 21 levels that she can use, and found one rare coral to make another one. I have found maybe 8 more that I cannot use myself, bringing the total to about 1 book every 2 levels. That seems pretty low drop rate to me. Not everyone buys things, some people like to find things for themselves. The problem crafters have is the inflated prices people are charging for things. 2.5 silver for a chemical? I am an alchemist, this is ridiculous. It doesn't cost near that to make them, and I would never think of charging that much for one. 1 gold for a backpack? Vendor packs cost much less, and they are overpriced to encourage people to buy from players! Its not like the resources cost anything more than your time to go pick them up off the ground! The few things you have to buy from a vendor are cheap. If people started charging reasonable prices, people would buy more product. If app4 spells cost 5 silver (note these cost 9 coppers to make at T2, 42c in materials and 33c sell back from the loam) then people would buy one for every spell they had with no worries about finding adept1 later on.... they would want the buff right now and upgrade further as they find them.If everyone charged less, everyone would make more.

PowellPeral
01-04-2005, 08:44 PM
<DIV>I completely agree that this is a waste of time and not a good fix.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please read a post I made in the sage forum here:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=a12&message.id=930" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=a12&message.id=930</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Something has to be done, please post your opinions about it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks for your time and consideration.</DIV>

MaximumCarna
01-04-2005, 08:57 PM
<DIV>The price is what people are willing to pay. It takes me 2-3 hours to make a stack of pristine carbon inks. Not to mention the couple of hours spent harventing the crowded limited areas and the time spent sitting in my room to sell the stuff. Why should I sell my ink for 10s just to make a silver or two off it? I am not saying they should sell for 40s, but I do want it to be worth my time and effect to make it. Otherwise I might as well take the extra step and make fighter spells to sell and level with.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you want lower prices allow people to sell when they aren't in their rooms. This would cause more people to sell with items being on the board longer. The inflated prices would take a nose dive.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Still like I said at the start if someone is willing to pay 1g for a bone, its not the buyers fault for trying to sell it for that much, its the guy who decided he just had to have it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Neko
01-04-2005, 10:10 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MaximumCarnage wrote:<BR> <DIV>The price is what people are willing to pay. It takes me 2-3 hours to make a stack of pristine carbon inks. Not to mention the couple of hours spent harventing the crowded limited areas and the time spent sitting in my room to sell the stuff. Why should I sell my ink for 10s just to make a silver or two off it? I am not saying they should sell for 40s, but I do want it to be worth my time and effect to make it. Otherwise I might as well take the extra step and make fighter spells to sell and level with.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you want lower prices allow people to sell when they aren't in their rooms. This would cause more people to sell with items being on the board longer. The inflated prices would take a nose dive.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Still like I said at the start if someone is willing to pay 1g for a bone, its not the buyers fault for trying to sell it for that much, its the guy who decided he just had to have it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>As you state, let the customer decide the value of the item, not the seller.</FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>How long it takes to craft or quest for an item is not the customers problem.   </FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>They should not reduce the drop rates of Adept1s just to create a high priced market for App4s.</FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>Just like they should not reduce the Crafting options, just to create a high priced market for Quested Items.</FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT> </DIV> <DIV></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>If your products are not selling (Crafted or Looted), its not the customers nor SoE's problem.    The problem is that *you* are putting too much value on your sale,  and the customers does not agree with that value.</FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT> </DIV> <DIV></FONT> </DIV>

ekiand
01-05-2005, 05:02 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Neko wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MaximumCarnage wrote:<BR> <DIV>Why should I sell my ink for 10s just to make a silver or two off it? I am not saying they should sell for 40s, but I do want it to be worth my time and effect to make it. Otherwise I might as well take the extra step and make fighter spells to sell and level with.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>The problem is that *you* are putting too much value on your sale,  and the customers does not agree with that value.</FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>The problem is right there in front of your face. The reason why app3s and in a few days/weeks/months/years....whenever the patch comes app4 are so expensive is because alchemists and woodworkers do not need to sell or even make these items for sages in order to level or craft. So they don't and when they do they sell it for a fairly hefty price. This is why I, as a sage, have to sell them so high. Otherwise I just lose money so I stopped crafting. Which is the reason you don't see any of the tier 3 and up spells for sale. Sages can not level.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well you say don't pay that much for the ink/quills/paper. Well the catch is that alchemists and woodworkers do not even have to make this stuff. They make much more profitable items. If I don't pay they don't lower thier price they just stop making ink/paper/quills.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hell as a Sage now I would just like to see recipes something I can level off of without the help of another crafter even if it produces nothing anyone could ever use.</DIV>

MaximumCarna
01-05-2005, 06:36 AM
<DIV>Sages are being screwed right now and it hurts all of us in the end. As the last poster said the higher lvl you go the harder it gets to find spells. When you see adapt 1's going for 1s something isn't right. </DIV> <DIV>I don't know what the answer is. I know if a class couldn't solo at all, couldn't do anything on their own, so that in order to lvl they always had to be groups, most would say that class is broke. It is no different with Sages. Maybe npcs should sell crude or shaped inks, sell it of all the first line items. Sell inks, glass bottles, vials, patterns, etc. The player could lvl and do quests, but wouldn't be able to make pristine items without getting the items from another player.</DIV> <DIV>Maybe this will happen when workshops advance, but what is going to be around in 6 months isn't helping the trades like Sage now. We all are going to want and need Sages at higher levels, even fighter types who may have all their spells up to date will be relying on priests with app1 spells to keep them alive.</DIV>

Laiina
01-05-2005, 07:21 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CerraWhisperwind wrote:<BR><STRONG><EM>You can't say to reduce the drop rate based on the market. How many do YOU actually find that you can use</EM></STRONG>? My shaman as found ONE in her 21 levels that she can use, and found one rare coral to make another one.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Almost none, which was the point in my previous message. Yet I see around 15 in the scout/bard line.<BR>

CerraWhisperwind
01-05-2005, 10:53 AM
Spell drops seem to be static. Hunt in one place for a bit and you start to see duplicates of spells, and only a few different ones from each mob type. Perhaps the bard spells are dropping from an easy to farm mob? Maybe it is a mob that a lot of people always kill?The comparative rarity of bards also helps, not as many to buy them.They need to randomize the drops more so more different spells get out there instead of 10 of the same one.

Kwoung
01-05-2005, 01:56 PM
<DIV>Actually, spells drop on a rotating table. So while one day the crabs in Ant might be dropping the same spell half the time.. a day or two later it will a different spell. Personally I think those tables are broken as a few spells seem to be in every rotation and is why you see them selling for a silver and 50 copies siting on the market. I reported this back in beta, obviously nothing was done about it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Warlock Lo
01-05-2005, 08:45 PM
<DIV>Well, as I see it there are a couple of things that could be done to improve things for crafters and adventurers alike:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. All player stats like what class you are (Sorceror, Brawler, Wizard, Necro, Mystic, etc.) is kept in a database which is easily queried.  Once per day the server should query the database (a 30 second procedure at most) and come up with a percentage of each class.  Then using that percentage, assign it appropriately to the Adept 1 scroll drops.  That way there aren't ridiculous amounts of say Bard Adept 1's and practically no Mystic Adept 1's when Mystic's outnumber Bards say 10 to 1.  This is just a rough example, but I think it would go a long way to helping balance the types of spells that are available to each class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2. Reduce the drop rate of Adept 1 scrolls some (say 10-15%) combined with the balanced drop system in #1 to see how that helps the market.  There are currently some areas that I know I can hunt and 8 out of 10 kills I know will be an Adept 1 scroll.  That seems way to high to me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3. Add a "bonus" component to the crafted scrolls/skills/spells.  An example might be:  Blaze App 3 = appx 100 damage + 5% chance to do another bonus damage of 1-20 points.   Blaze app 4 = appx. 120 damage + 8% chance to do another bonus damage of 1-20 points.  Or something similiar to that.  That way the crafted items have a definate plus that makes them marketable against the dropped scrolls.  This could be applied to the buffs/debuff as well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In my opinion, there should be items that players can adventure for that are nice and suit a purpose, but not necessarily better/cheaper then whats available from the people who take lots of time developing their crafting skills.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Think of one being an off the shelf suit, while nice, but not quite as nice as the custom tailored one from the Italian tailor shop down the avenue  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I guess we'll all see what direction SOE takes and hope for the best!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Cheers</DIV>

Elawise
01-06-2005, 12:23 AM
<DIV>Admitedly I didn't read all of the posts, but here is they way I see it working</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At the tier you are working on you can make up to appr 4.  Tier 1 creafter to tier 1 spell ect..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now at tier 2 you get a set of adept spell recipes that are approx 13 levels above the level to make the appr spell.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To make an adept it requires a pristine (app 4) spell, and is modified.  (i.e.  requires the tier 2 ink paper and quill for a tier 1 adept etc..)  No change from level 1 or 2 combines.  At level three "normal" it becomes an adept 1.  At level 4 it becomes an adept 2.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Once you get two tiers above the spell level you can make master spells.  25 level above that required to make the appr spell.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>you make a pristine appr 4 spell, then make an adept 2 spell (another pristine combine)  Then the third and fourth level of the combines become master 1 and 2.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why can't a sage beable to create a master level of a spell that is 25+ levels below him?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

kata
01-06-2005, 01:15 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Elawise wrote:<BR> <DIV>Admitedly I didn't read all of the posts, but here is they way I see it working</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At the tier you are working on you can make up to appr 4.  Tier 1 creafter to tier 1 spell ect..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now at tier 2 you get a set of adept spell recipes that are approx 13 levels above the level to make the appr spell.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To make an adept it requires a pristine (app 4) spell, and is modified.  (i.e.  requires the tier 2 ink paper and quill for a tier 1 adept etc..)  No change from level 1 or 2 combines.  At level three "normal" it becomes an adept 1.  At level 4 it becomes an adept 2.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Once you get two tiers above the spell level you can make master spells.  25 level above that required to make the appr spell.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>you make a pristine appr 4 spell, then make an adept 2 spell (another pristine combine)  Then the third and fourth level of the combines become master 1 and 2.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why can't a sage beable to create a master level of a spell that is 25+ levels below him?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>They might, but the power-inflation in the lower levels could be seen as a strong negative by the development team.  A possible way around it would be the "t1 adept made by the t2 scholar" requiring skill levels to use that were t2 and not t1.  The downside there is the spell is likely obsolete or close to it, a problem that exacerbates as you go up in levels.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For what I've seen  in gear, the "ranking sytem" seems to work like this:</DIV> <DIV>1. Named Raid Mob Drops</DIV> <DIV>2. Player crafted at Pristine</DIV> <DIV>3. Quested (Although depending on quest, this varies, pristine t3 armor is very close to AQ armor and in some case better.)</DIV> <DIV>4. Mob Dropped/Player Crafted at Normal</DIV> <DIV>5. Vendor Purchasable/Player Crafted at Shaped</DIV> <DIV>6. Player Crafted At Crude</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The whole problem comes in part from the fact that adept1 spells are happening at stage 4, and regardless of quality (curently) spells are all basicaly somewhere around 4.5 or 5.  The other half of the problem is sadly out of the developers hands, its players not realizing that app3 is an improvement over app2 that is worth getting.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In t2 as a scholar I did ok selling spells.  Very few adept drops to compete with, and my costs were low.  I didn't get rich, but I kept my head above water and was able to afford modest upgrades in-line with my level as I went along.  In t3, the prevalence of adept1 drops has seemingly convinced players that app3 spells/arts are "a waste of time and money".  Plus on a lark I bought a copy of Putrid Cloud Adept 1 (Warlock level 23 AE spell) and scribed a copy of Putrid Cloud Apprentice 3.  I went to a vendor in the city, and checked the price on both when sold.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Apprentice 3: 12sp</DIV> <DIV>Adept1: 1s 30c (roughly)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That also monkeys things up nicely.  Since they don't sell for anything above a joke to vendors, people put them up for sale via broker.  Since they enter the market, and don't leave until used, and each one only needs to be used once, the demand for app3 is hurt.  Now it can cost me about 40s in materials to make an app3 spell in t3, if I could reliably sell those spells for 50-60s, I wouldn't mind.  Heck, even if the prevailing rate were 45s or 50s for app3s, its still a modest profit and would allow me to finance my own advancement as a pure tradeskiller.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However on Antonia Bayle at least, the abundance of Adept1s has pushed ALL spell prices in t3 down to the 25-35s range, meaning I'm looking at a 5-15s loss per scroll I make.  This of course assumes I can sell them.  A few spells sell for more of course, but that has seemed to be very "streaky" and hard to predict.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ok, back to my point with the rankings.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If mobs were dropping app3 scrolls instead of adept1 books, it would be on-par with the above system.  Certain rare quests or hard named mobs might drop adept1 of course, and one would expect raid mobs to drop adept1s more frequently along with the odd master 1.  This then, if combined with apprentice 4 scrolls being crafted, would make for a viable market for sages.  Certainly no one would "need" apprentice 4 so long as encounter balance was left tuned to apprentice 3, but it would be a sellable feature.  It also would still be inferior to raid quality drops, which seems to be the intent.  I'm more or less fine with that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Alternatively, the mobs that drop adept1s could be allowed to continue to do so, and they would retain their power over player crafted spells.  But, since player crafted adepts are dependant on incredibly rare harvests (10g for t2 rare to make an adept for instance), then it stands to reason adept drops should be similarly as rare.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The above assumes that all tradeskill classes were meant to be able to function independantly as their own classes.  I find the only way I can advance as a sage is to advance as an adventurer so I can go out into very dangerous territory and harvest myself.  Then I can barter the harvested items for the products I need.  Not a great solution, but at least I can get by (barely) between selling back to vendors and cash from mob drops.</DIV>

Feaw
01-06-2005, 04:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> That's the whole problem. The adept1's always cost less than the app3/app4 and drop like flies. No one buys the apps ever and no one has cash unless you farm or exploit. And adept1 is not a simple upgrade. The jump from app3 to adept1 is much more noticable then the jump form app1 to app3. Often times you get extra benefits from adept1 such as my Grim Spellbinder getting a new spell with the adept version over the app3 version.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I buy them</DIV>

MaximumCarna
01-06-2005, 05:05 AM
<DIV>While its a good idea I don't think it really would fix much. What would happen is the market would be flooded with app3 drops, which would drive the cost of player made spells down just as adapt 1 are doing. </DIV> <DIV>There are to many of some drops and to few of others. I have seen adapt 1 offered for 1s before the board is full of that spell.</DIV> <DIV>It really makes no sense, most treasure drops are worse than player made stuff, except spells.</DIV>