Positioning and finding the mob the tank is on? and other questions.

[Pinuvin]

<DIV>I'm a level 17 Assassin now and have a few questions about strats to use when trying to get into position around the tank.  Last night I was grouping with some folks and the tank was great, trying his best to put the mob in position for me.  One problem I always had was when multiple mobs were were pulled, I couldn't tell which mob he had targeted.  I'm keeping the tank as my target but I couldn't tell which one it was when they all came to camp and I spent a lot of time out of range or not in the right position and by the time I found the right place, the mob was almost dead.   Any help here would be great...<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, is there a place where I can go to get a better explanation about what our attacks do?  Some are so abigous that I can't tell what they are actually used for.  I would like to know how people them, ect.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, how do you more experienced people use archery?  I'm getting all my ranged attacks now and feel like i'm missing out on some dps because i'm not using my bow enough. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well, that is it for now.  Sometimes I just wonder how much I'm missing out on because I don't ask so, now I'm asking.  </DIV>

[Sirlutt]

a good tank will position the mob for you.. if they arent.. politely ask them to turn the mobs back to you and the rest of the party.In a group situation, target the tank.  you can then either use /assist (macro it) or just target through the tank.. the mob he is targetting will have an arrow over its head.<div></div>

[ranma5]

<div>EQ2 has so many buttons, abilities, combat arts, etc., that no one can really tell you all the intricacies of how it all fits together.  Often it's all about using what's refreshed, so you have a lot of abilities that are similar and just chain them as you can.  Assassin is no different.  As far as archery, you generally fit it in when you can, in between melee CA's as they refresh so that means you have to step back.  Assassin has a lot of positional requirements, so you have to be good at moving your toon around.  Then, Assassin has a lot of stealth required moves, and stealth and position both required moves.  Generally what you do is try to set up combos with moves that put you in stealth and then do the moves that require stealth, all in one motion.  At some higher level (I forget), there's Concealment, which allows you to execute all five stealth required backstabs in a row without other less damaging combat arts in between.  Or you can substitute the stealth required AE's in the situations that call for them.I always use a macro with the /assist <tank's name here> command in it whether I'm grouping or not, but I've been doing that for like 6 years (eq1).  Or you can target the tank as mentioned.  Up to you.  But these are the two ways to get the tank's target.<blockquote><hr>Sirlutt wrote:a good tank will position the mob for you.. if they arent.. politely ask them to turn the mobs back to you and the rest of the party.In a group situation, target the tank.  you can then either use /assist (macro it) or just target through the tank.. the mob he is targetting will have an arrow over its head.<hr></blockquote> I guess some scouts really like it when tanks position the mob for them, and tanks take pride in it, but personally I hate it when the tank turns the mob.  I'm sure there's times when it's necessary in order to not get adds, but for the most part, I just feel like I'm not lazy, I can do the moving no problem.  And usually if the tank turns the mob he picks exactly the wrong time to do it, when I'm at the back of the mob already and chaining position-required CA's, so he completely messes me up.  I'd much prefer that the tank put the mob in one place at the start and kept it there.  Any time the mob moves after engage it costs me dps because I've already moved into position at that point and my CA's will stop working if the mob moves again.  I don't really like waiting for the tank to turn the mob either.</div>

[ranma5]

As far as individual combat arts, this list is as good as any, imo.http://eq2.ogaming.com/db/list/abilities_assassin.php<div></div>

[Sirlutt]

playing a tank as my main I position the mob right off the bat.  I pull, run back a few steps, sheild bash to stun a couploe of seconds and move past the mob.. when the shield bash is off the mob turns nicely and everyone can have at it.this is especially important for Rangers (my assassin was a ranger up until a few nights ago) as they need to be back up away from the mob for some of their rear shots (as do assassins) .. so turning the mob is i think one of the most important things a tank can do .. it allows them to keep watch on adds, grabs the adds withotu endangering the rest of the group.  So many times an over zealous scout will be working on whacking stuff andnot see a pather or such and especially with the new social agro.. its really important to have the tank position things correctly.<div></div>

[ranma5]

If you the tank can do it quickly and only one time as a general rule, I can see it.  And like you said there's then the situation where a possible add can be avoided by moving the mob and forcing people to adjust.  BUT.. I've seen it way too many times when the tank moved the mob out from under me with no discernable reason for doing so, or moved the mob here, there, here again, over and over in order to get it 'perfectly positioned,' or was just sluggish in moving it at the outset, made me wonder if he was going to do it at all, and then GOTCHA!, moved the mob after I'm all set, positioned, and chaining away so that I not only had to make an adjustment in the first place, I had to make 2.  My dps is maximized when I can make the fewest adjustments, so when the tank micromanages mob position, it sucks.  Anyway there's a relationship between scout and tank in any group, and both people need to pay attention.<div></div>

[Pinuvin]

<P>So, I still have to look at the little arrow about the mobs head to see which one the tank has targeted?  It's hard to see that sometimes.  Is there another way to see which mob the tank is targeting?  Sometimes when a group comes together, they can be spread apart so as when one dies, the next one is too far away from you.  It's then I have problems having to back out and look for the arrow.  This is especially difficult in tight areas such as dungeons, not so much out in the open. </P> <P>As far as ranged attack goes, just step back from the mob and cast backshot then move back in for more melee?</P> <P>Oh, and thanks for all the responses...<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[BaruMonk]

<blockquote><hr>Pinuvin wrote:It's hard to see that sometimes.  Is there another way to see which mob the tank is targeting?<hr></blockquote>Like I said before, play around in your Options menu. IIRC, you can brighten the arrow, make them glow, maybe even put an outline around them. It's in the Targeting section of one of the menus, possibly User Interface.

[ranma5]

<div></div>Yeah, play with your graphical options.  You can make it so that it makes whatever mob you have targeted glows and has a circle around them too, I think.  You also might find you like the /assist command better than targeting the tank, so you should try both and figure out which you like better.  The former involves one arrow because you actually target the tank's target, the latter involves 2 arrows because there's one arrow for the tank and one arrow for his implied target.to use /assist here's what you do:make a macro with nothing in it but this:/assist BiffWhere Biff is your tank's name.  Every time the tank switches targets, you have to click this macro if you want to do damage to his target.  Often times, tanks switch around and you want to stay on one target and not follow them anyway.  If you always want to do damage to the tank's target, it's best to target the tank and use implied targeting (2nd arrow, the blue one) to assist.<p>Message Edited by ranma503 on <span class=date_text>06-20-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:30 PM</span>

[Pinuvin]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BaruMonkey wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinuvin wrote:<BR>It's hard to see that sometimes.  Is there another way to see which mob the tank is targeting?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Like I said before, play around in your Options menu. IIRC, you can brighten the arrow, make them glow, maybe even put an outline around them. It's in the Targeting section of one of the menus, possibly User Interface.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>That's what I'm looking for...<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  I know I went through the whole options menu and never saw that...  I need some glasses I swear.  Thanks for all your help guys.  Sounds like I'm doing things right I just need a few more adjustments to my display and a little more practice. 

[whytakemine]

<P>I highly recommend using /assist <tank's name>, as long as you don't have a crappy tank.  The advantage is the tank can switch targets to taunt while all the dps classes stay on the chosen target until dead.  A good tank will call "Assist me with <target>" whenever he wants you to switch mobs.  </P> <P>Another advantage to you is if you have the mob targeted directly, you can tell instantly if it switches off the tank.  If it switches to you, you know to hit your de-taunts and stop attacking until the tank gets it back (unless it's almost dead, then just finish it off).  I believe the primary target arrow is also bigger and brighter than the implied target arrow, so that my help with your original question as well.</P> <P>If you have a crappy tank though, you have no choice but to use the implied targeting. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  I was in a group with a pally tank once who would target one mob until it was about 50% health, then switch to a new mob, etc until they were all at 50%, then he would go back through and start letting us finish them off.  Stupid...</P>

[evilpants]

<P>I assist the tank always since I kept wiping when I tried guessing which target they were after. The mob will also glow blue and positioning is a snap with a good tank because they will position it for you. If they arent then ask them to do so as another poster suggested. Only problem I have when assisting is that sometimes the tank is a bit slow switching targets (or the mechanics are slow) and I end up getting " No Available Target" messages till the next mob is locked. If your tank isnt positioning and you decide to position yourself make sure to be aware of your surroundings. Roamers can be a problem if they sneak up on you and the tank cant pull aggro off you in time. Biggest thing is paying attention to whats going on around you and staying behind the mobs (Higher level mobs have a frontal AoE or CA that can damage you quite heavily and wipe you completely if theres 3 or more). Hope you can glean something useful from my ramblings.</P> <P> </P> <P>Haephestus / 64 Assassin / Guk</P>

[Roast22]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Yeah, play with your graphical options.  You can make it so that it makes whatever mob you have targeted glows and has a circle around them too, I think.  You also might find you like the /assist command better than targeting the tank, so you should try both and figure out which you like better.  The former involves one arrow because you actually target the tank's target, the latter involves 2 arrows because there's one arrow for the tank and one arrow for his implied target.<BR><BR>to use /assist here's what you do:<BR><BR>make a macro with nothing in it but this:<BR><BR>/assist Biff<BR><BR>Where Biff is your tank's name.  <FONT color=#ffff66>Every time the tank switches targets, you have to click this macro if you want to do damage to his target.  Often times, tanks switch around and you want to stay on one target and not follow them anyway.</FONT>  If you always want to do damage to the tank's target, it's best to target the tank and use implied targeting (2nd arrow, the blue one) to assist.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Before i reply to the quote above let me explain my play style.  I play an assassin and also a swashy but the same rules in this case apply to both.  I use /assist rather than the implied targeting (targeting the tank and hitting his target) for 3 reasons</P> <P>1) Becasue i'm used to it, used /assist for over 6 years.</P> <P>2) Becasue like you i have trouble seeing the implied targeting arrow and it looks lame and invasive when turned up in the graphic's options.</P> <P>3) But most importantly becasue I don't have to keep re-positioning to get my attacks in.</P> <P> </P> <P>Now for my reply to the highlighted part of the quote:</P> <P>This is one of my personal pet pev's with tanks, they switch targets constantly but then ask you why your not assisting, Grr ! </P> <P>I /Assist at the start of the fight, so everyone is (in thoery) on the same target, but as the fight progresses the tank switches target to get one of the mobs off another group member.  At this point i have 2 options, i either contiune to attack the mob we already were or I switch with the tank, which requires me to switch position and leaves a half dead mob still in combat that we could have already killed.  This to me seems crazy, esp as with dots etc on the first mob mezzing isn't a reason to switch with the tank (infact its a reason not to switch) and hopefully the tank either has enough hate on the mob that it won't turn and swat me or the tank will switch back and contiune taunting.  But the problem with this is that the mages and the healers (less of a concern) are normally using implied targeting and so switch their damage to the new target leaving me alone (assuming i'm the only one useing /assist) to finnish the mob.  </P> <P>As you can see this can be a problem, i highly advise anyone bar the healer classes to use /assist rather than the implied targeting.  Its more reliable system and gives better results.  </P> <P>I also highly disagree with a few people that don't like the tank turning mobs, imo its essental for a good fluild group.  Some of you said it decreasses your dps but i disagree, you can start of with a high damage bow attack while running in and then start off attacking.   Also you should be waiting atleast a few secs for the tank to grab a good hold of agro before you open up with high damage attacks durring this time is when the tank should be turning the mob.  I will of course concede that tanks that repostion 3 or more times durring a fight are annoying and its not required.  Luckly for me this has been rare, though tanks that turn mobs for my lvl 40 assassin are also rare :smileysad:</P>

[Sollum]

<DIV>Surely though the ideal group set up is to have a MT and a MA (main assist) where everyone in the group should only be assisting the MA in order to all focus attacks on one target. The MT's role is to establish and maintain aggro on all mobs. He can only do this by constantly switching targets. So it will be the MA that will select which target for the group to kill next after the MT has established aggro. </DIV>

[Kimage]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sollum wrote:<BR> <DIV>Surely though the ideal group set up is to have a MT and a MA (main assist) where everyone in the group should only be assisting the MA in order to all focus attacks on one target. The MT's role is to establish and maintain aggro on all mobs. He can only do this by constantly switching targets. So it will be the MA that will select which target for the group to kill next after the MT has established aggro. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>ahhh I beg to differ on this one --- a normal group setting shouldnt need an MA - Raids yea MA's VERY IMPORTANT.  The key word there is shouldn't. I have played with Zerkers, Guardians, SK's, Pally's, and as long as the person knows thier character and plays them well a normal group shouldn't ever need an MA. Personally I feel having a MA in a group setting is last on the priority list - I rather have a 2nd healer before an MA. PERSONAL OPINION. </P> <P>In a group setting - the tank imho should turn the mobs - no matter what class your dps are. Ya its much more important for the scouts and not so much for your casters but I feel a good tank should turn the mob - its 10 sec more damage I can be dishing out... and in a fight that is usually only 30 sec long - thats an eternaty for me to have to be moving around and getting position to open a can of whoop [Removed for Content]. </P>