Current Assassin CA' problems Pre LU20

[Skratttt]

<div> </div><div> </div><div>As all of us who parse know our offensive stance rarely makes up for more than 1% of dmg....But with proc changes i really think it will go from insignificant to non existant......</div><div> </div><div>Why do we still have a 10% (listed) chance compared to rogues 25% and rangers 30%??? no it dont proc from offhand ......</div><div> </div><div>Next is the whole Aggro transfer line...nice in groups...bad in raids...why cant it be casted raidwide to someone else (but only 1 assassin/swashbuckler can do this, others have to find other targets to transfer hate to) or just straight up make it hate loss</div><div> </div><div>Anyone have anything add??</div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div>

[Demonskill]

<div>they also take away our reconniter line, which is... one of the many nerfs from us</div>

[Historios]

<div></div><p>Heroic Opportunities completed by a stealth art will no longer cause your stealth be stuck in an unusable state.</p><p> </p><p>Well I was going to mention this one, but it looks like its been taken care of.... finally</p>

[Graton]

i don't think our swipe dmg will change much actually. the majority of our procs came from regular melee aside from bowshots so while we will take a hit on it i don't expect it to be much. that said i agree the percentage needs to be adjusted upward for it to mean anything.<div></div>

[Tlaloc]

<div></div><p>1. I agree on the hate transfer it should be raid wide, however if it stacked it might be overpowering 25% hate transfer x 2 assassins would make it impossible for any class to pull aggro assuming the assassin was doing his job and generating alot of hate.  In the few raids I have been in I just don't use it unless I have been in the off MT group.</p><p>2. Please remove the greying out of the stealth attacks.  I think this is being addressed but not sure if it is part of LU20.</p><p>3.  I think Reconniter needed to be removed it stacking was overpowering.  There should be some risk that we will turn the mob and honestly if I am working with a good tank in a group I have rarely been able to turn a mob if they are using their taunts properly.  I don't think I've turned a mob once in a raid...  well there was that one time what's his name in Permafrost turned to kick me in the head, but he went right back to the MT.... not sure how assassinate upsets them so much *sarcasm*.</p><p>4.  Since I have never changed my playstyle to maximize proc'ing I don't think I will be affected that much by the change in LU20.</p><p>5.  I may be pretty lame here but I never understood the issue most assassins have with stances... but I am not sure how the other class stances work... perhaps some of you folks can enlighten me.</p><p> </p><p>Lathu</p><p>54 Assassin - Befallen </p>

[Historios]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Tlalocnj wrote:<div></div><p>5.  I may be pretty lame here but I never understood the issue most assassins have with stances... but I am not sure how the other class stances work... perhaps some of you folks can enlighten me.</p><p> </p><hr></blockquote>I think this statement gets to the heart of the problem.  For other classes their stance means something, our right now means nothing to us, we dont even notice it, and thats really the problem.

[dea]

This may be anecdotal evidence and not very useful, but before this new proc change I felt that Swipe was going off very often while playing on Beta. The CA effect and flavor descriptions have not changed, but it simply "felt" like it was procing far more often -- I certainly noticed Swipe coming up fairly often in my combat window.<div></div>

[HellRaiserXX]

<div></div><div>I dont really see how the nerf to procs will really affect us.  We have no attacks that hit more than once, except the 2 AEs and one bow CA. In fact it may help if the modify the delay on procs so that on each attack it has a chance to hit, as it is now rangers proc so much because of the delay on their bow, when I use a bow I proc more, but it doesn't increase my DPS. This will hurt rangers cause they have a bunch of CAs that hit mobs more than once and their procs will only happen once for each CA. Stream of Arrows comes to mind.</div><div> </div><div>Yes Swipe should have a greater percentage to hit, I see no reason why a ranger who is a predator should get 3 times the chance to proc.  With the changes to how a player advances in levels it might be different since a ranger and an assassin no longer come from the same stock.</div><div> </div><div>Yes take away graying out of stealth attacks lol annoying annoying annoying.</div><div> </div><div>Hate transfer lines are fine, we have enough hate dumps that we shouldn't need it, it is mainly to bolster the tank if we are needed in MT grp, I put in a troub if we have a troub in the group, works fine that way. If I need to dump some hate I hit Concealment and just keep on going, 40% at Master 1 will easily drop you a notch on the hate ranks.</div><div> </div><div>Raina</div><p> </p>

[Logan]

<div></div>As far as the stance goes it doesn't proc a ton but it's a nice bonus. The real thing i notice from it is that I hit alot more with the weapon skills jacked up from it. less measurable than proc amounts but overall Id say it boosts your dmg plenty.

[Graton]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>HellRaiserXX wrote:<div></div><div>I dont really see how the nerf to procs will really affect us.  We have no attacks that hit more than once, except the 2 AEs and one bow CA. In fact it may help if the modify the delay on procs so that on each attack it has a chance to hit, as it is now rangers proc so much because of the delay on their bow, when I use a bow I proc more, but it doesn't increase my DPS. This will hurt rangers cause they have a bunch of CAs that hit mobs more than once and their procs will only happen once for each CA. Stream of Arrows comes to mind.</div><div> </div><div>Yes Swipe should have a greater percentage to hit, I see no reason why a ranger who is a predator should get 3 times the chance to proc.  With the changes to how a player advances in levels it might be different since a ranger and an assassin no longer come from the same stock.</div><div> </div><div>Yes take away graying out of stealth attacks lol annoying annoying annoying.</div><div> </div><div>Hate transfer lines are fine, we have enough hate dumps that we shouldn't need it, it is mainly to bolster the tank if we are needed in MT grp, I put in a troub if we have a troub in the group, works fine that way. If I need to dump some hate I hit Concealment and just keep on going, 40% at Master 1 will easily drop you a notch on the hate ranks.</div><div> </div><div>Raina</div><p> </p><hr></blockquote>you didn't read the full scope of the changes. they are completely changing the proc model so that ca's do not proc based on the dealy of the weapon but the cast time of the ca. since our ca's are fast casting our proc rate will go way down. it won't hurt us near as much as rangers but our poison dmg will drop significantly.originally they said the change was just to double proc attacks but they since revised that.</span></div>

[scivias]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Graton wrote:<div><span>you didn't read the full scope of the changes. they are completely changing the proc model so that ca's do not proc based on the dealy of the weapon but the cast time of the ca. since our ca's are fast casting our proc rate will go way down. it won't hurt us near as much as rangers but our poison dmg will drop significantly.originally they said the change was just to double proc attacks but they since revised that.</span></div><hr></blockquote>I am totally missing out this revision, it sure isn't in the test server update notes, where can I read that?</span></div>

[Skratttt]

<div>Yeah what u guys maybe dont see is that we will have our procs (poison and every other proc) halved or quartered depending on which weapon u use...</div><div> </div><div>This is not taking into account the Procs u get from auto atack</div><div> </div><div>Proc Chance Calculations..now and post lu 20 for procs with a 25% chance namely poison</div><div> </div><div>Ranged Atacks</div><div> </div><div>NOW longbow 7.0 delay = 1 proc every 1.7 CA's spammed at 25% chance (basically every other CA at the least on single shots and at least 1 proc off Assailing blast if not 2)</div><div> </div><div>Post LU 20 CA's if you take a whole minute into consideration (for recast purposes) the AVG casting time is 1.25 (the 2 1 min recast are 1.5, the 30 second recast 1 second)</div><div> </div><div>Meaning on AVG you will get 1 proc every 9.6 bow CA's used @ 25% chance</div><div> </div><div>Leaflbade 2.1 delay = 1 proc every 6 ca's spammed @ 25% chance</div><div>Swort sword 1.2 delay = 1 proc every  10 ca's spammed @ 25% chance</div><div>New proc calc using our .5 casting CA's = 1 proc every 24 CA's  spammed with a lagless enviroment  @ 25% chance :robotsurprised: = 12 seconds to get 1 poison in</div><div> </div><div>If you add in auto atack procing once every 12 .......</div><div> </div><div>Thats why i was touting the whole 3 second rule For Delay proc calc off CA.....25% becomes 25% per CA' spammed regardless of cast time</div>

[Graton]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>scivias wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Graton wrote:<div><span>you didn't read the full scope of the changes. they are completely changing the proc model so that ca's do not proc based on the dealy of the weapon but the cast time of the ca. since our ca's are fast casting our proc rate will go way down. it won't hurt us near as much as rangers but our poison dmg will drop significantly.originally they said the change was just to double proc attacks but they since revised that.</span></div><hr></blockquote>I am totally missing out this revision, it sure isn't in the test server update notes, where can I read that?</span></div><hr></blockquote>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=47688&view=by_date_ascending&page=22nd post on this page they explain that the ca / proc mechanic is finally being changed. i think we all saw this coming and while rangers are understandably screaming bloody murder this will bring our poison damage down as well.</span></div>

[KirikaNo]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Graton wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>scivias wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Graton wrote:<div><span>you didn't read the full scope of the changes. they are completely changing the proc model so that ca's do not proc based on the dealy of the weapon but the cast time of the ca. since our ca's are fast casting our proc rate will go way down. it won't hurt us near as much as rangers but our poison dmg will drop significantly.originally they said the change was just to double proc attacks but they since revised that.</span></div><hr></blockquote>I am totally missing out this revision, it sure isn't in the test server update notes, where can I read that?</span></div><hr></blockquote>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=47688&view=by_date_ascending&page=22nd post on this page they explain that the ca / proc mechanic is finally being changed. i think we all saw this coming and while rangers are understandably screaming bloody murder this will bring our poison damage down as well.</span></div><hr></blockquote>It won't hurt us so much because we tend to use fast weapons.</span></div>

[Graton]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>KirikaNoir wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Graton wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>scivias wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Graton wrote:<div><span>you didn't read the full scope of the changes. they are completely changing the proc model so that ca's do not proc based on the dealy of the weapon but the cast time of the ca. since our ca's are fast casting our proc rate will go way down. it won't hurt us near as much as rangers but our poison dmg will drop significantly.originally they said the change was just to double proc attacks but they since revised that.</span></div><hr></blockquote>I am totally missing out this revision, it sure isn't in the test server update notes, where can I read that?</span></div><hr></blockquote>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=47688&view=by_date_ascending&page=22nd post on this page they explain that the ca / proc mechanic is finally being changed. i think we all saw this coming and while rangers are understandably screaming bloody murder this will bring our poison damage down as well.</span></div><hr></blockquote>It won't hurt us so much because we tend to use fast weapons.</span></div><hr></blockquote>fastest weapon i've seen is a 1.2 delay. a .5 second cast time is less than half that so our proc percentage on melee ca's will be less than half what it was before. yes we melee regularly so this is not the hit that's been given to rangers but we will certainly be proccing a lot less. i imagine the first change i'll make is a switch to heavier dot poisons.</span></div>

[Dragonsviperz]

<div></div><div></div><p>I have a problem with the procing, but thats hitting everyone so its not directly at us. But it will affect us that i know... Our off stance is just crap now atm, i like the +40something to out skills, but the 10% is just stupid. I rarely notice when Swipe procs and when it does i am like wow...[Removed for Content] did that come from. I've talked to the swashy in  my guild and his off stance is 25% i think, but only does 150-350 dmg or around there. I don't know how much they proc and how much % their off stance contributes to their dps (if you can call it that). The only class off stance that confuses me is the rangers. Their proc contributes to like 30% or so of their dps. Rogues stance since i found out its low dmg i don't care about that much anymore, i have to see how much % it actually contributes and i can tell you guys if needed. But if they were gonna have us at 10%proc, inc the dmg, or add something else to our stance, ie haste, more dps, str/int maybe? Any one of those would be fine imo.</p><p>Our aggro line is fine..i never get aggro even if i don't have a troub, usually i dump it on a healer, monk, or someone that has really low dps. Improved Surveil is like up to 1200deaggro at master, Elude master is like 1300...so i don't see the need to have more deaggro. The master of xfer is 29%. It would be nice to have it raid wide, or make our pets useful again, but thats not at the top of my list of things that need to be improved.</p><p>The only thing that needs to be improved for us atm is our stance..either have it proc the correct % cuz it [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] near doesn't, or add other affects or inc the dmg of the proc to atleast make it even to that of a ranger.</p><p> </p><p>Message Edited by Dragonsviperz on <span class="date_text">02-17-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:47 AM</span></p>

[Graton]

i agree that our stance needs to be changed. it does btw proc 10% of the time, assuming the 3 second delay rule. Seeing as most fights last about one minute it will on average go off twice which is a complete joke. take a parse from one of your fights, look at the swipe damage and think about how much it would need to actually mean something.skratch put this parse up in the combat thread yesterday i think, have a look:<a href="http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d1/Mystaskratch/pprbooks2.jpg" target="_blank">http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d1/Mystaskratch/pprbooks2.jpg</a>This is a pptr fight so there are no aoe's. this is a fight where we can shine. Out of a total of 115,000 dmg , swipe was 3500 3%. A 30% proc rate would to me put swipe in the range of meaningful. it would be right up there with Exposing Mark.I think the problem we're going to have is that after this ranger nerf we are going to be the new ranger so to speak. unless something radical happens with the release of PoS we'll be doing more dps than anyone now and are not going to be in a very good position to ask for our offensive stance to be changed.<div></div>

[KirikaNo]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Graton wrote:<div><span>fastest weapon i've seen is a 1.2 delay. a .5 second cast time is less than half that so our proc percentage on melee ca's will be less than half what it was before. yes we melee regularly so this is not the hit that's been given to rangers but we will certainly be proccing a lot less. i imagine the first change i'll make is a switch to heavier dot poisons.</span></div><hr></blockquote>Mathematically it doesn't matter that much that there is a .5 second cast time on skills because their refresh isn't fast enough for us to chain them, aside from when we're using concealment and what not.  The refresh on the skills is what's important, that and the fact that a bunch of the Ranger procs come from Stream of Arrows because there are so many attacks chained right in a row.  I'm not saying we won't be hit by it, I'm saying it won't be NEARLY as big of a deal for us as it is for other classes considering that roughly 15% or so of our damage comes from procs on average.  Compare that to the Rangers' 50%.Also there is a MUCH smaller difference between 1.2 delay and .5 cast time than a 7 delay and a .5 cast time.</span></div>

[Dragonsviperz]

<div></div>Yea i completely aggree with that, that is why i am not worried as much as some people about the proc nerf. Rangers are going to be hurt the most, don't know about conj's and their pet, don't know enough about how they work. But i don't proc that much now, and won't after this nerf...

[dparker7]

<p>Biggest problem for us is the total number of restricted attacks.  No reason for cripple and FB to be positional, and removing PB from stealth would make soloing tolerable.  Or how about removing stealth from atleast 1 of our AEs, since AE fights are shorter than the combined casting time of both our AEs.</p><p>Str on our offensive stance would be nice, so would more str/int gear.  Or a change of our primary stat to str. </p><p>The change to procs will hurt as I think 20ish percent of our DPS is procs, but I'll need to see parses after the changes to start screaming bloody murder.</p><p>Message Edited by dparker713 on <span class="date_text">02-17-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:39 AM</span></p>

[Graton]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>dparker713 wrote:<p>Biggest problem for us is the total number of restricted attacks.  No reason for cripple and FB to be positional, and removing PB from stealth would make soloing tolerable.  Or how about removing stealth from atleast 1 of our AEs, since AE fights are shorter than the combined casting time of both our AEs.</p><p>Str on our offensive stance would be nice, so would more str/int gear.  Or a change of our primary stat to str. </p><p>The change to procs will hurt as I think 20ish percent of our DPS is procs, but I'll need to see parses after the changes to start screaming bloody murder.</p><p>Message Edited by dparker713 on <span class="date_text">02-17-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:39 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>by FB do you mean FS / fel shot?. Cripple needing to be directly behind is irritating i agree as is spitting asp and gore strike. gore strike takes the cake as you need rear position and stealth.</span></div>

[MystaSkrat]

<div></div>He means Finishing Blow, and I don't know why that or Crippling Strike are flanking only either... only about 8-10% of my dps is procs (poison mainly) so I don't see a huge nerf for us, but rangers.... ouch.

[AfflictedOne]

<span><blockquote><hr>KirikaNoir wrote:<div><span>Also there is a MUCH smaller difference between 1.2 delay and .5 cast time than a 7 delay and a .5 cast time.</span></div><hr></blockquote>Rangers dont have any .5 cast ranged arts.  They are from 1 sec to 5 secs.  Which if they do comparable damage means that they have a much lower actual dps per art.  Also means that autoattacks will be delayed longer.</span><div></div>

[Demonskill]

<div>how did u get 2 finishing blow out in 1 min fight?</div>

[MystaSkrat]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Demonskiller wrote:<div>how did u get 2 finishing blow out in 1 min fight?</div><hr></blockquote>It's a 100 second fight, that's plenty of time for 2 Finishing Blows :smileyhappy:

[Demonskill]

<div>if you see the parse closely, he got 2 finishing blow off, 1 is 4k and other is 6k. if fight is 100 secs, only thing i can imagine is that you guys hit the mob to 20% within 20 secs, then use ur finishing blow, wait for another 40 secs and use another...</div>

[MystaSkrat]

<div></div>Or, perhaps, there's more than one mob in the encounter..... In fact, I know there is, cuz I was there. :smileyhappy:

[Dragonsviperz]

<div>4K FB, you are weaksauce</div>

[MystaSkrat]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Dragonsviperz wrote:<div>4K FB, you are weaksauce</div><hr></blockquote>You're totally jealous!  ( and I bet I get my lame pred only bp before you do Tig :smileytongue: )

[Dragonsviperz]

<div>HUsh little man, you just wish you had my t5 fabled BP still...</div>

[MystaSkrat]

<div></div><div></div><p>Considering what the pred only one does.... you're probably right :smileysad:</p><p>On the other hand, I know that I'm > Tigruz, cuz I got the killshot on the djinn master, so Ha! <a target="_blank" href="http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d1/Mystaskratch/be575ee7.jpg">http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d1/Mystaskratch/be575ee7.jpg</a></p><p> </p><p>Edit - I'm so bored today :smileytongue:</p><p>Message Edited by MystaSkratch on <span class="date_text">02-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:17 AM</span></p>

[Dragonsviperz]

<div></div><p>..........not fair.....</p><p> </p>

[MystaSkrat]

<div></div><p>!</p><p>Hi, I backstab mobs for 13,000 damage, and you want me to be fair? :smileytongue:</p>

[Dragonsviperz]

<div></div>Wait, you can't break 13K with assassinate? =P

[MystaSkrat]

<div></div>Gimme a week and I won't <em>use</em> Assassinate :smileyhappy:

[dea]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>MystaSkratch wrote:<div></div>Gimme a week and I won't <em>use</em> Assassinate :smileyhappy:<hr></blockquote>And they're off! The race is on, tune in for nightly updates on Guk.assassin!</span></div>

[Aienaa]

<div></div><p>Blah.. only had a little time to play before I had to come to work...   left off with 40% till 61 and 3 AA points....  Already got a group set up for when I get home from work though =)    Sucks I am going to miss out on alot of discoveries though =(</p><p> </p><p>Gwern - 60 Assassin - Kithicor</p>