Something I have noticed: Assassin vrs Ranger DPS

[Droka]

<div></div><div></div><div>Ok, so I finally got tired of being totally out dpsed by Rangers/Furys/Zerkers blah blah blah, and got a parser. I first started soloing, and found out were most of my damage came from. Then I started using those abilities more (didn't realize I was not using those abilities as much as I could). That helped raise my dps solo a bit, so I moved to grouping and started watching what gave the most damange blah blah, rinse repeat.</div><div> </div><div>So I then started grouping with my Ranger friend (who knows how to play his toon, you might even call him hardcore). Before the adjustments to my play style (btw I suggest a parser to anyone that wants to improve their dps) I was constantly beat by hundreds and even over a thousand dps on ocassion(edited for clarity I was doing 700dps'ish and the rangers are doing 1700+ dps'ish). Shameful I now. I have now narrowed the gap a bit, yet my Ranger buddy and other rangers I know still out dps me 60% (much better than the 90% previously) of the time.</div><div> </div><div>And here is why (IMHO):</div><div> </div><div>Assassins:</div><div>1. To many positional attacks I have to run around constantly (even on good tanks depending on number of mobs) to get behind the mob. This takes time and therefore lowers my dps.</div><div> </div><div>Rangers:</div><div>1. They seem to have few if any positional attacks, so its damage after damage after damage.</div><div>2. Second and probably most astonishing is proc rate. Everyone knows the bow has amazing proc rates compared to melee. On some parses I have seen up to 48% of a rangers damage come from procs of poisions, and thats just poisons.</div><div> </div><div>I am still working on improving my dps, but I am running out of ideas on how to improve. I know I can get more str (currently 290ish self buffed). I am sure some of my play style is not perfect.</div><div> </div><div>Thoughts on improvement:</div><div> </div><div>Initially I would say NERF THE RANGERS!! Lol, but that is wrong!!!! WRONG!! The reason its wrong is because they are in T1 DPS range with wizards and warlocks (OMG Warlock DPS is amazing, guildie hit 3600ish in Poets Return on one fight). So in my opinion, I would say leave the rangers alone and fix us.</div><div> </div><div>To fix us find a way to equal the proc rates of rangers. If you did that on the weapons then zerkers would be insane as well as the monk/bruiser classes. To keep that in check dont increase the proc on weapons, but let our CA's (Assassin CA's) have a chance to proc more, or something to that effect.</div><div> </div><div>That would be a start without imbalancing all melee classes and have to take away proc rates again.</div><div> </div><div>Also make it so we can hit from the side as well, not just from directly behind them. That would make it easier for us to get position and get our damage out. Without taking away the fun of having to get in position (Yes, I said fun. The one thing that keeps me playing my assassin is how much skill it feels it takes compared to all the other classes I tried.)</div><div> </div><div>I know this is all been said before, but not by me. I am usually quite, very quite, but lately my dps comparison has started to get to me.</div><div> </div><div>p.s. You know, in raids my guild sees my dps and just laughs. Its disheartening although I know they are joking. Don't get me wrong I can hit some numbers but I had a coercer beat me once. YES A [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] COERCER!!!!!!. Anyways, there are very few assassins played in the upper levels. My guildies say they could not deal with a second rate toon so they rerolled. I like assassins. It will always be my main, and I try hard to turn the opinion of others about us, but its really really really hard. With more people joining the guild, they are starting to only be able to take those NEEDED classes. I fear my time is soon at hand where I am asked to sit back and watch.</div><div> </div><div>In response to a question. This is lvl 60 toons. The rangers I play with know their stuff as do I, I feel. I have played with other assassins (although few and far between) and have out dpsed them big time. Although I don't see many and I dont do that everytime. Now after my adjustments, I look like the ranger. However it should be noted I was playing with another assassin the other day and we went head to head. So must have been the people playing their toon.</div><p>Message Edited by Droka on <span class="date_text">02-01-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:55 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Droka on <span class="date_text">02-02-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:41 AM</span></p>

[-Steppenwolf-]

I think we'll be seeing lots of rangers when the new betrayal options become available... then, when every predator will be a ranger, they'll nerf them all!<div></div>

[Doobur]

<div>Is this true for all lvls? I have been in groups between levels 25 and 40 and seen Assassin owning when a parser was running. Does thisjust mean the Ranger sucked or are we talking more towards the end game in this thread?</div>

[Grym]

<div></div><p>Im just as curious - are we talking END GAME?    I was grouped with a SK, Zerker, Necro and another assasin, bout lvl 23-25 for us all, and I out DPS'd everyone by close to 45%..</p><p> </p>

[ERROR]

One of our biggest flaws in my oppinion is our Offencive Stance VS theirs.Ours procs at 10%, where theirs is 30%Also, in raids, we have to lance to do damage unless we can get resists up really high, they don't<div></div>

[davian9]

<div></div><p>Several people asked if this is an end game problem..  Basicly yes.  As you hit lvl 50 and every lvl after 50 you will feel that your assassin is getting weaker as you see many of the other classes around you getting stronger.  It is very very frustrating to put so much time into a character to find out that as you approach the "end game" content no matter how well you play your toon or how well you are equiped you will not measure up to other classes.</p><p>There are so many reasons why assassins are very poor at end game content, I am not going to go into them all or I will get depressed, lol :smileysurprised:</p><p>About 3 months ago I decided to make a ranger alt to see if all the negative talk about assissns was true (My main is a lvl 60 asn).  In short:</p><p>Soloing: My ranger (now lvl 40) can solo things that my assassin could not dream of soloing at lvl 40 (ie lvl 42^^^ heroic mobs) and im sure (looking at spell progressions) that the gap in ability to solo will only increase at higher lvls.</p><p>Group: My ranger can deal more dammager from a safer position, using less mana, and using less CA's then my assassin (not quite fair)</p><p>Raid: If the raid Mob does not have AoE my assassin and ranger are about equal (keep in mind I am scaling them because one is lvl 40 and the other is lvl 60), If however the raid Mob has an AoE (most end game epics do) my assassin performs very poorly compared to rangers.</p><p>The only thing my assassin is better at then my ranger id dieing.  Sad to say but from what I have expierenced from having both classes, its true :smileysad:</p><p>I just keep hoping that eventually the power lvl of assassins and rangers will be evened out. </p>

[Nezzr]

<div></div>Here is a few things to keep in mind.  On a high end raid, on jousting mobs, Assassins have to run in, then run out and chill for 10 seconds, whatever, then run back in.  Say the ae hits 6 times during the fight.  Thats an entire minute that we arent really doing much of anything.  Meanwhile, Rangers are blasting away.  Add in the fact that gleaming strike procs more on a bow, as does poison, and their offensive stance procs more often as well.  BUT, this is not why we lose so much. Lets look at the Assassins ancient arts vs. Rangers.  Lvl 55 is where I want to take a look.  At lvl 55, Assassins get a CA named Conceal.  You hit conceal, and for 5 seconds, every attack will put you into stealth.  This allows you to string 4, 5 backstabs if youre REALLY good.  However, miss one attack, and youre conceal is wasted.  And truthfully, how many people land every single attack on a lvl 64^^^x4?  Now, here is where we get screwed. Rangers get a CA at lvl 55 named Stream of Arrows.  For 36 seconds, they shoot an arrow ever 1.5 seconds.  I have parsed a raid with my guild, Gates of Ahket Ahkan, or however you spell that.  The 2nd highest DPS in the raid was our main lvl 60 monk.  Keep in mind he has 15 masters, and almost every piece of gear is raid fabled.  He buffs over 400 str solo, so believe me when I say...hes beefy.  He parsed at 98k damage on Dinree, one of the named.  Our Ranger however, has maybe...5 pieces of fabled.  He is good, but not GREAT.  He parsed at 139k damage on the same mob.  I took a look at the damage layout on that fight and found out a few things.  His offensive stance alone did  36k. Gleaming strike did 6.5k, his Stream of Arrows attack did 38.  Stream of Arrows alone, plus the procs from offensive stance and Gleaming Strike, did 80.5 thousand damage.  During this time, he stood still, and didnt do anything.  Now explain this to me.  How is it a Ranger can do over 80 thousand damage by clicking one button and sitting back, where as Assassins have to run in and out, smashing every CA they have just to do over 80k damage in the entire fight. Class balance at its best.<font size="1">Edited to make easier to read</font><div></div><p>Message Edited by Nezzrek on <span class="date_text">02-01-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:29 AM</span></p>

[Demonskill]

<div></div><p>personally, i've seen many assassin that i grouped with suck. 1 is that they dont' know their skill (like omg, been playin for 60 levels and they donno their CA? or they ebay it?). 2 is that they dont' pay attention to their timer. 3, the most stupid, is that they donno our DPS come from positioning.</p><p>It's ok that if you don't do good DPS, assassin is a hard class to master, harder than any other DPS class in the game. U want good DPS, u need to put lots of work into investing ur own combo. If you wanna stand around and do huge DPS, go rangers. Assassin is not ur class.</p><p>now what ur saying 3600 DPS on a warlock, that's in AE fight, which i wouldn't say we shoudl bother too much, we should be doing good DPS on singles, let those class do good DPS on AE fight. But when ur saying rangers are doing thousands more DPS than you, you have to do some work honestly. Unless ur doing 100-200 DPS and if ur level 60... im sorry but, do u just play with autoattack?</p>

[Gorhauth]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Droka wrote:<div></div><div>The reason its wrong is because they are in T1 DPS range with wizards and warlocks (OMG Warlock DPS is amazing, guildie hit 3600ish in Poets Return on one fight). So in my opinion, I would say leave the rangers alone and fix us.</div><div> </div><hr></blockquote>PPR is really a poor raid to base anything at all off of.  On those big groups, our Illusionist gets over 5k as does our Zerker.  You really can't say anything is good or bad from a fight that is so far from the normal.</span></div>

[judged_one]

<blockquote><hr>Nezzrek wrote:<div></div>Here is a few things to keep in mind.  On a high end raid, on jousting mobs, Assassins have to run in, then run out and chill for 10 seconds, whatever, then run back in.  Say the ae hits 6 times during the fight.  Thats an entire minute that we arent really doing much of anything.  Meanwhile, Rangers are blasting away.  Add in the fact that gleaming strike procs more on a bow, as does poison, and their offensive stance procs more often as well.  BUT, this is not why we lose so much. Lets look at the Assassins ancient arts vs. Rangers.  Lvl 55 is where I want to take a look.  At lvl 55, Assassins get a CA named Conceal.  You hit conceal, and for 5 seconds, every attack will put you into stealth.  This allows you to string 4, 5 backstabs if youre REALLY good.  However, miss one attack, and youre conceal is wasted.  And truthfully, how many people land every single attack on a lvl 64^^^x4?  Now, here is where we get screwed. Rangers get a CA at lvl 55 named Stream of Arrows.  For 36 seconds, they shoot an arrow ever 1.5 seconds.  I have parsed a raid with my guild, Gates of Ahket Ahkan, or however you spell that.  The 2nd highest DPS in the raid was our main lvl 60 monk.  Keep in mind he has 15 masters, and almost every piece of gear is raid fabled.  He buffs over 400 str solo, so believe me when I say...hes beefy.  He parsed at 98k damage on Dinree, one of the named.  Our Ranger however, has maybe...5 pieces of fabled.  He is good, but not GREAT.  He parsed at 139k damage on the same mob.  I took a look at the damage layout on that fight and found out a few things.  His offensive stance alone did  36k. Gleaming strike did 6.5k, his Stream of Arrows attack did 38.  Stream of Arrows alone, plus the procs from offensive stance and Gleaming Strike, did 80.5 thousand damage.  During this time, he stood still, and didnt do anything.  Now explain this to me.  How is it a Ranger can do over 80 thousand damage by clicking one button and sitting back, where as Assassins have to run in and out, smashing every CA they have just to do over 80k damage in the entire fight. Class balance at its best.<font size="1">Edited to make easier to read</font><div></div><p>Message Edited by Nezzrek on <span class="date_text">02-01-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:29 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Yep I totally agree : (After numerous parse and checking it out 3-4 different parser I have to conclude that Ranger is consistently 100-200 DPS above us.That is due solely on proc. And we got another hit when poison only proc on main hand too. Before that change I can narrow the gap to 50-150dps. The only time I out DPS Ranger if my attacks are up and the mob is not AOE heavy.The more important thing I see is Summoner doing more DPS then Ranger and Assassin, or at least coming very close to it.Since LU 13 5 guildies rerolled summoner(Necro+Conjuror) They can put out grat DPS and they have amazing utilities CotH, Mit buff, Heat and Cold buff, PET(Which can group tank), Pet(That can cast spells), Pet(That can do DPS like us), Dumbfire DOT type Pet...Basically Assassin is at the bottom of the Dev pile. All the improvement are nothing but a quick fix while they continue to nerf the class.I basically gave up on posting this crap cause I did it for so long, only to have other UBER assassin telling me that I don't really know what I am doing.I luv my assassin, but I rerolled a fury to benefit my guild. I would certain that most of the raiding assassins will become Rangers.But I doubt I will make that switch.Maybe when they see the number of assassin left after the mass exodus they will throw us 1-2 more bones.Good luck!

[Nezzr]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Demonskiller wrote:<div></div> But when ur saying rangers are doing thousands more DPS than you, you have to do some work honestly. Unless ur doing 100-200 DPS and if ur level 60... im sorry but, do u just play with autoattack?<hr></blockquote>The Ranger wasnt doing thousands more DPS, he was doing thousands more total damage.  Keep in mind I had to joust, and I was only lvl 56 I think at the time of the fight, and he was 60 with better gear.  I know how to play my class very well, there isnt half a second that goes by that a combat art isnt being casted.  On a raid mob that isnt heavy on the AE, I can keep up with alot of the high lvls in my guild, simply because I know what Im doing.  But when a ranger can do 70 thousand damage without having to string combat arts, its just unfair.  I personally would never go ranger because I love my class.  I love the challenge of figuring out the exact sequence to hit my CAs so I time them perfectly, but I still cant compete with a ranger.  The point Im trying to make is that Rangers can do tons of more damage, without doing anything, hitting one button and letting it cast for 36 seconds.  I really think the dev was drunk when he put Stream of Arrows into the game.</span></div>

[HellRaiserXX]

<div></div><div></div><p>It really depends on the mob.  If the mob doesnt have a hard AOE that stuns and I can survive a hit, I can get within 100DPS or even sometime more than our ranger.  My guild isnt as uber equiped as some, but the 2 of us are pretty much equal for equipment.  What kills our DPS is jousting and the procs for dmg poisons, I dont know if debuff poisons have fewer procs or what, but my debuffs run a lot faster than my damage ones.  My guild uses me in the MT grp for my hate buff and it allows me to do almost max DPS without fear of pulling aggro. I dont know what our ranger could do at full DPS, but in an average fight Im never more than 200 below him and I beat him every so often.</p><p>I hope all the asssassins dont reroll to rangers. Everyone and their sister has a ranger alt in my guild. I won't ever not be an assassin, I can hardly play my alts cause it just doesn't feel right lol.</p><p>I solo fine as an assassin.  I solo the ^^^ giants, sabretooths, and harpies in PoF. Bow kiting though, so if it's an enclosed zone with lots of mobs I can't solo heroics unless they are way green.</p><p>Raina 60 Assassin Everfrost</p><p>Message Edited by HellRaiserXX on <span class="date_text">02-02-2006</span><span class="time_text">07:02 AM</span></p>