Wurm destroyer bow vs Grizz [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

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Magnethjelmen2

10-31-2006, 02:49 PM

Why is so many people saying the Grizz bow, and the crappy claymore bow is better than the Wurm bow, it just dosent give any sense IMO. Theise are the bows I got atm, becasaue the Sarnak, Bazkul and Icor wont drop for us <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <img src="http://img437.imageshack.us/img437/8013/bowses2.jpg"> For me its logical that the wyrm is the best, becasue it got highest dmg rating. Yes its procc only works on draconic.... But how the hell can the gostly bow ever be better than wyrm??? Because it got a higher delay so you can make higher crits? No [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing way, its simple mathematics. The wurm bow make small crits just more often, how can it be so difficult to understand? And you can see it got 96.5 vs 73.4 rating, the number is there for you, so you can see the bow makes more DPS. <div></div>

xandez

10-31-2006, 03:05 PM

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Magnethjelmen2 wrote:Why is so many people saying the Grizz bow, and the crappy claymore bow is better than the Wurm bow, it just dosent give any sense IMO. *clip* For me its logical that the wyrm is the best, becasue it got highest dmg rating. So, that automatically does mean, that the bow is better, or that you can make higher dmg with it? Yes its procc only works on draconic.... But how the hell can the gostly bow ever be better than wyrm??? Hmm... You do know how eg. proccing works, and how crits are calculated? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Imo, 2 quite simple reasons... #1) 9s delay = nice proccing from eg. off stance, poisons, items that proc with bow #2) high max dmg = high crit dmg Because it got a higher delay so you can make higher crits? No [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing way, its simple mathematics. The wurm bow make small crits just more often, how can it be so difficult to understand? Well, 2 crits of 424 compared to 1 crit of 774 certainly seems to tip teh favor slightly towards the wyrm destroyer... however, its a short bow .... and they suck, right? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Yes, the wurm bow probably is better, but its fabled bow, yes? And you can see it got 96.5 vs 73.4 rating, the number is there for you, so you can see the bow makes more DPS.Again, do those number necessarily mean that the bow makes better DPS overall?? Of course if the difference is bigh enough, but you still have to take range, delay and max dmg into consideration (imo) <div></div><hr></blockquote>++XanMessage Edited by xandez on 10-31-2006 12:07 PM

Magnethjelmen2

10-31-2006, 04:22 PM

<blockquote><hr>xandez wrote:<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Magnethjelmen2 wrote:Why is so many people saying the Grizz bow, and the crappy claymore bow is better than the Wurm bow, it just dosent give any sense IMO. *clip* For me its logical that the wyrm is the best, becasue it got highest dmg rating. So, that automatically does mean, that the bow is better, or that you can make higher dmg with it? Yes its procc only works on draconic.... But how the hell can the gostly bow ever be better than wyrm??? Hmm... You do know how eg. proccing works, and how crits are calculated? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Imo, 2 quite simple reasons... #1) 9s delay = nice proccing from eg. off stance, poisons, items that proc with bow #2) high max dmg = high crit dmg Because it got a higher delay so you can make higher crits? No [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing way, its simple mathematics. The wurm bow make small crits just more often, how can it be so difficult to understand? Well, 2 crits of 424 compared to 1 crit of 774 certainly seems to tip teh favor slightly towards the wyrm destroyer... however, its a short bow .... and they suck, right? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Yes, the wurm bow probably is better, but its fabled bow, yes? And you can see it got 96.5 vs 73.4 rating, the number is there for you, so you can see the bow makes more DPS.Again, do those number necessarily mean that the bow makes better DPS overall?? Of course if the difference is bigh enough, but you still have to take range, delay and max dmg into consideration (imo) <div></div><hr></blockquote>++XanMessage Edited by xandez on 10-31-2006 12:07 PM<hr></blockquote>#1) 9s delay = nice proccing from eg. off stance, poisons, items that proc with bow How can 9 sec be better than 4,5? Yes the 4,5 will giv less dmg, just more often, which in the length will be the same amount of dmg. #2) high max dmg = high crit dmg Yeah, but it goes from a very small amount of dmg, to a high amount. So there is a chance that you give that high dmg, where the wyrm bow is more balanced dmg. Well, 2 crits of 424 compared to 1 crit of 774 certainly seems to tip teh favor slightly towards the wyrm destroyer... however, its a short bow .... and they suck, right? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I prefer longbow too, but imo its the best of those 4 bows. Again, do those number necessarily mean that the bow makes better DPS overall?? Of course if the difference is bigh enough, but you still have to take range, delay and max dmg into consideration (imo) Its a number there is balanced to the bow, if you want to calculate on it you should use the numbers next to it. But it is still the overall factor. <div></div>

athitchcock

10-31-2006, 05:58 PM

If you stay on autoattack, yes I believe the damage rating will determine the best bow.If you are only autattacking between CAs, the damage rating and delay don't matter as much. If you're spamming CA's all bows are only going to get one shot off in between.I tend to use the Ghostly while firing CAs. If I run out of CAs and if I can't run in to melee or I run out of power I'll switch to the Griz. Admittedly, that may change if I ever get a T7 fabled bow.Don't assassins like the GDoH and DoN because of the high end numbers and not the dmg rating? I'm hoping for the Sarnak bow for the same reason, of course in that case the dmg rating is super high too.Gnaril<div></div>

xandez

10-31-2006, 10:00 PM

<DIV>god i hate these forums... it just wanted to make my reply disappear completely... puuh... gonna write another one soon (hope it stays visible)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>++Xan</DIV>Message Edited by xandez on 10-31-2006 07:02 PM

xandez

10-31-2006, 10:10 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Magnethjelmen2 wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> #1) 9s delay = nice proccing from eg. off stance, poisons, items that proc with bow How can 9 sec be better than 4,5? Yes the 4,5 will giv less dmg, just more often, which in the length will be the same amount of dmg. Because of the proccing, since it is normalized to 3.0s. that makes the 9s delay bow proc more when using CA:s. So, with eg. poisons.... Bylze proc chance = 9.0s/ 3.0s x 25% = 75% Wurn proc chance = 9.0s/ 3.0s x 25% = 37.5% Half, but the Wurn is twice as fast, so thats ok in autoattack situations, however the same proc % is used with CA:s too, which tips the scale towards the Bylze. And it has 10m longer range too <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> #2) high max dmg = high crit dmg Yeah, but it goes from a very small amount of dmg, to a high amount. So there is a chance that you give that high dmg, where the wyrm bow is more balanced dmg. An autoattack crit is always atleast maxdmg + 1, so a weapon with high maxdmg is better. *edit* the longer delay weapon is also somewhat more beneficial, when you want critical hits (iirc...) A link to the critical hit thread <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=111347" target=_blank>HERE </A> Again, do those number necessarily mean that the bow makes better DPS overall?? Of course if the difference is bigh enough, but you still have to take range, delay and max dmg into consideration (imo) Its a number there is balanced to the bow, if you want to calculate on it you should use the numbers next to it. But it is still the overall factor. This is ok when you use just autoattack. You usually however are using also CA:s? Of course, its still a good way to determine which weapon is "better". But we as rangers also have to take certain other things into consideration <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>++Xan Message Edited by xandez on 10-31-2006 07:12 PM

USAFJeeper

10-31-2006, 10:12 PM

I had IChor, Wurm, and Grizz. I also parse our raids. I used the Grizz until I got my Sarnak. All I can tell you is that for the reasons listed above the Grizz was better. YMMV

Jayad

11-01-2006, 12:10 AM

The delay on the bow is only used to calculate auto-attack proc %s for itself. For the chance to proc on a CA, it uses the (unmodified) cast timer.

Judist

11-01-2006, 01:27 AM

High top-end damage is the name of the game, and thats simply why Ghostly Bow of Bylze is a great weapon. Regardless of the DR, it's crit's will compound for more than a shortbow can. It's for this same reason the "Grinning Dirk of Horror" is such a great weapon. It may be slow, it may the same DR of other dual-weild weapons, but its got high top-end damage. And like some of our bows it can crit for 4k on autoattack... and this is a melee weapon. Another reason Longbows are better is even with a TON of haste, they still provide plenty of time for CA's in-between autoattacks. You have less chance of delaying an autoattack with a longbow than a shortbow. With a hasted "shortbow" you'll will easilly delay more autos over the duration, thus lowering its DR. Dont believe me? Grab a monk (for extra haste and tanking) and pound on that low level epicx3 near the antonica spires. You'll have a VERY hard time getting the most out of your autos, ranged CA's and melee CA's. Switch to a longbow and everything becomes much more fluid. Message Edited by BeatinGuts on 10-31-2006 12:28 PM

xandez

11-01-2006, 01:57 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Xney wrote:<div></div>The delay on the bow is only used to calculate auto-attack proc %s for itself. For the chance to proc on a CA, it uses the (unmodified) cast timer.<hr></blockquote>hmm what unmodified cast timers? The CA cast timers? Aha... ++Xan

Crychtonn

11-01-2006, 02:27 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BeatinGuts wrote: High top-end damage is the name of the game, and thats simply why Ghostly Bow of Bylze is a great weapon. Regardless of the DR, it's crit's will compound for more than a shortbow can. It's for this same reason the "Grinning Dirk of Horror" is such a great weapon. It may be slow, it may the same DR of other dual-weild weapons, but its got high top-end damage. And like some of our bows it can crit for 4k on autoattack... and this is a melee weapon. Another reason Longbows are better is even with a TON of haste, they still provide plenty of time for CA's in-between autoattacks. You have less chance of delaying an autoattack with a longbow than a shortbow. With a hasted "shortbow" you'll will easilly delay more autos over the duration, thus lowering its DR. Dont believe me? Grab a monk (for extra haste and tanking) and pound on that low level epicx3 near the antonica spires. You'll have a VERY hard time getting the most out of your autos, ranged CA's and melee CA's. Switch to a longbow and everything becomes much more fluid. Message Edited by BeatinGuts on 10-31-200612:28 PM <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Read, understand and learn what is written here. Ignore, remove from your thoughts and try never to remember all the other posts. Do these two things and you will become a better ranger.

Velth

11-12-2006, 12:08 AM

Reading through these forums about all the 'theory's of why longbow A. is better then shortbow B.' has lead me to the conclusion that nobody really knows for sure; and outside of having T8 ammo and the ASWB or Corruption; it seems wisest to go with what has better output stats based on using '/weaponstats' in game. Doing a little basic math and NOT calculating crits I've come up with the following: [66% haste, 520 strength] Wurm Destroyer: 326-977 / 2.7 delay (21494 dmg/60sec) (358.23 dps) (96.5 rating) Sinew Wrapped : 480-1440 / 4.2 delay (20160 dmg/60sec) (336.00 dps) (91.4 rating) Ghostly Bylze : 198-1784 / 5.4 delay (19624 dmg/60sec) (327.06 dps) (73.4 rating) Grizzlefazzle : 437-1019 / 3.6 delay (16304 dmg/60sec) (271.73 dps) (80.8 rating) This is not taking into effect the proc rates of the Sinew Wrapped or the Grizzlefazzle or the draconic proc for Wurm Destroyer. I have been mostly using Sinew Wrapped since I like to see higher crit numbers; but after parsing quite a few fights I've found that Wurm Destroyer is edging out Sinew Wrapped by a slight margin; increasing my dps by about 100-150 per fight. Now there is the argument that my DPS would go down because of the timing with CA's, but after the developer post about auto-attacks queing up with CA's I haven't bothered to time my auto-attacks anymore. So far it seems my DPS is up. I'll generally start with Veiled Fire; Cover + Vines, Devitalizing + Culling, Focus Aim, Triple Volley + Confounding + Amazing + Rain of Arrows, Precise, Snaring; then I'll go melee with Longblade+Ranger's Blade, Surveil + Emberstrike, Poison Combo, Mortal, Shocking Thrust, Arrow Rip, Point Blank & Lunging while keeping auto-ranged attack up in between melee CA's. At this point I use Cover + Vines again and go into auto-attack mode, cycling CA's as they come up and using Focus as much as I can. With the above method, I normally parse 1000-1300 using Sinew Wrapped; 1100-1400 using Wurm Destroyer. Sometimes I'll spike over 1500 with enough crits. On long fights my DPS falls down to around 750-1000 using Sinew Wrapped; 875-1100 using Wurm Destroyer. Heck I've even taking a liking to poping Focus Aim and letting Stream of Arrows go off; it doesn't seem to hurt my DPS; sometimes it increases it if I get a good chain of crits going off; which seems to happen alot. Now like I said, this isn't using T8 ammo and ASWB/Corruption. If I had those; I would just let auto-attack fly, but since I don't I have to work for whatever DPS I can do. Sometimes if I need more range, I'll go longbow; but so far I've been pretty happy with Wurm Destroyer. If anyone has any suggestions or tips; please feel free to post them. Give some insight to the rest of the Rangers out there instead of complaining. Oh, and the above stats comes from being in a non-DPS group. No DPS buffs and if I'm lucky I'll get some INT & haste; maybe.

xandez

11-13-2006, 04:34 PM

<div></div>well, like Crychtonn said earlier... theres reasons why high top dmg bows are better than others...++Xan<div></div>Message Edited by xandez on 11-13-2006 01:34 PM

Saihung23

11-13-2006, 08:30 PM

Imbued Bone bow ftw!

Jeris Nefz

11-13-2006, 11:34 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Velthas wrote: Now like I said, this isn't using T8 ammo and ASWB/Corruption. If I had those; I would just let auto-attack fly, but since I don't I have to work for whatever DPS I can do. Sometimes if I need more range, I'll go longbow; but so far I've been pretty happy with Wurm Destroyer. If anyone has any suggestions or tips; please feel free to post them. Give some insight to the rest of the Rangers out there instead of complaining. Oh, and the above stats comes from being in a non-DPS group. No DPS buffs and if I'm lucky I'll get some INT & haste; maybe. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Not to split hairs... but just because you have the sarnak and t8 ammo, it doesn't mean that you have the "easy button". While it is true I parse much higher now with sarnak and t8 ammo, you need to know how to not only play the class, but learn the bow too. It's not like you can hit auto attack and go afk and hit 2k dps. =D Those that parse 1700+ consistently are busting a nut to do so, regardless of the equipment that they have. All the great gear in all of Norrath isn't going to give you great dps... it's the player who does. I have seen people with Grizz bow break 1500 repeatedly... and others with much better bows that can't do 1200. /shrug

TerriBlades

11-14-2006, 11:50 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jeris Nefzen wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Velthas wrote: Now like I said, this isn't using T8 ammo and ASWB/Corruption. If I had those; I would just let auto-attack fly, but since I don't I have to work for whatever DPS I can do. Sometimes if I need more range, I'll go longbow; but so far I've been pretty happy with Wurm Destroyer. If anyone has any suggestions or tips; please feel free to post them. Give some insight to the rest of the Rangers out there instead of complaining. Oh, and the above stats comes from being in a non-DPS group. No DPS buffs and if I'm lucky I'll get some INT & haste; maybe. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Not to split hairs... but just because you have the sarnak and t8 ammo, it doesn't mean that you have the "easy button". While it is true I parse much higher now with sarnak and t8 ammo, you need to know how to not only play the class, but learn the bow too. It's not like you can hit auto attack and go afk and hit 2k dps. =D Those that parse 1700+ consistently are busting a nut to do so, regardless of the equipment that they have. All the great gear in all of Norrath isn't going to give you great dps... it's the player who does. I have seen people with Grizz bow break 1500 repeatedly... and others with much better bows that can't do 1200. /shrug <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> QFE While it is true that T8 Ammo and a Sarnak/LBoC will increase your DPS, its not going to do the work for you. Any ranger with both of those will tell you that. You still have to do all the things that rangers do to push the numbers up. Its a very RARE situation when I dont have a CA up, or one coming up within a few seconds. The only place I can think of that I would "sit back and let AA fly" would be while doing the crab. Which is all fine and dandy there (and usually means I have to stop attacking for brief periods of time) but thats the only time Id be letting AA do all the work. Ive seen good rangers, and Ive seen bad rangers.. and while its true, gear does help a ranger a bunch, bad players will always be just that. Bad players. Edit: I should learn to proof read BEFORE hitting submit!Message Edited by TerriBlades on 11-13-2006 10:51 PM

Velth

11-14-2006, 01:21 PM

It's funny how nothing but negative posts come from these forums. Simply stating that "I would let autoattack fly" is more a figure of speech then a method of fighting. I put in work on my ranger to get my DPS up. All I'm saying is that the discrepencies between bows OUTSIDE OF ASWB & Corruption + T8 ammo seem to parse in favor of the bow with a higher damage rating. I have Grizz, Wurm Destroyer & Sinew Wrapped. I've alternated all 3 with how I fight and I see a big improvement when I have the Wurm Destroyer equipped; mainly because of Caustic Poison procing almost twice as much. If you have suggestions, again please feel free to post them and/or strategies. If not, read another thread. This is also coming from the perspective of a scout that never gets put in the DPS group. The only dps buff I seem to get is fury INT & agitate (which is a fricking proc anyway) and the INT usually goes to a necro/conj. It may be our raid makeup or it may just be that I'm not perfect at timing my CA's/autoattacks and melee CA's, but I rarely get over 1300 dps if I'm lucky; and thats on multiple trash mobs. All my CA's are M1+ and I'm fully fabled. AA's are in AGI/INT. I still always parse in top 5; and usually top 3. I keep GM versions of caustic, bliss & warding ebb up at all times; and I use either +INT potions or Tactics for the +crit chance.

gfx

11-15-2006, 03:51 AM

yea imo the Wurm is best..<div></div>

USAFJeeper

11-15-2006, 09:29 PM

My mileage varied. I got better DPS from the Grizz than the Wurm. In fact I put the Wurm in my bank and forgot it immediately. Now that I have the ASW, its a moot point. We also had the Bazgul drop last weekend, no other rangers in guild so we shot it to an assassin since I had ASW/Ichorstrand and would only use the Bazgul for backup. When it rains it pours, raided DT since June or earlier and finally get the two bows dropped in the last week and a half. I also use the Grandmaster Caustic so that may be a difference maker too.