LU24 Ranger Changes

[ChaosUndivided]

<DIV> <P>- Scout: Cheap Shot - Reduced power cost. Duration is 4s instead of 6s</P> <P>on standard or weaker opponents.</P>- Ranger: Thorny Trap - Duration of Root effect has been reduced. <P>- Predator: Point Blank Shot - Reduced stun duration, recast time</P> <P>lowered to 45s, and damage decreased.</P> <P>- Ranger: Surveil - Range lowered to 35 meters from 50 meters. (CRY!!!)<BR></P> <P>- Predator: Intoxication - Damage over time effect will now stack with</P> <P>other allies.</P> <P> </P> <P>Surveil Change sucks.</P></DIV>

[DaenReard]

Is it even possible for Point Blank Shot to have a shorter duration?  As it is with it at App4 I have barely enough time to land Crippling Blade on a ^.  I don't understand why they're nerfing Cheap Shot either since it's intended as an indirect Enchanter buff but is only 6 seconds against stuff that you either fight solo or doesn't last more than 4 seconds against a group. <div></div>

[rcknchr]

<DIV>I dont understand why the morons at SoE are having such a hard time balancing Rangers. Our Thorny Trap doesnt need to be messed with it is there to help us solo and it is hardly if ever used in a group. Cheap Shot will be worthless if it goes through so just take it out of the game. Finally PBS is barely worth the AA's and the only real good ability on the Agi line is critical to range if they do go through and drop PBS stun duration. So they either need to redo the whole Agi line of AA's or just allow us to spend 4 points on increasing our agi and be able to jump straight to the critical increase imo if they do decrease the stun on PBS or just remove the stun and make the increase the current damage on PBS by 2.5 to make it even worth having. (ex at 4 point think i do around 477 so drop the stun and make it do 1000 damage at 4 points).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For the love of god just admit you cant balance so many classes so go back to the 80's style gameplay and drop to 4 classes: Fighter,Mage,Priest,Scout so maybe then you will have a shot of balancing class instead of changing all the classes every month with this nerf [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sorry for the whining but Im tired of seeing every class getting hit day in and day out with the nerf bat because they are not testing or thinking about what they are doing when they make changes to the game.  /grabs the nerf bat and breaks it across the tree. </DIV>

[Auriak]

Ugh!<div></div>

[Cirro]

<P>LOL, crazy.</P> <P>Lockeye does one balance chance, and now here comes the nerf bat again as usual?</P> <P>In the meantime SoA's still broken.   Perhaps the Devs should concentrate on FIXING things instead of nerfing.</P> <P>Nah, that'd make too much sense.</P>

[Taubin]

Is there a link to this someplace? Just curious<div></div>

[Taubin]

NM, I found it on the test when I tried to log in there <span>:smileywink:</span><div></div>

[ChaosUndivided]

<A href="http://patch.everquest2.com:7010/patch/eq2/motd/en/updates_test.html" target=_blank>http://patch.everquest2.com:7010/patch/eq2/motd/en/updates_test.html</A>

[EQII_Faeal]

<P>Sony is really beginning to test my loyality to this game and their company; first they attempt to fix rangers (yes we needed a tiny reduction in damage) but by doing so they almost crippled our damage. However, trying to be nice they decide to help us out by increasing the damage of many of our spells, the problem is  the damage increase is minimal and really didnt help to much and still isnt on the same line as assassins (which sony said they our CA damage should be) and we're being out DPSed by "T2" DPS classes. They also decide to give us a root so we can actually get some more ranged attacks off during solo play; which they finally figured out we needed.</P> <P>So after deciding we needed to create distance in solo play to actually have a chance at success they do what? Thats right, they reduce both of our stun durations. Tell me SoE do you actually hire people to play the classes you create to make sure things work out right? The answer ofcourse is no you dont, this was probably most obvious with Blackguard's famous quote about how he had no clue that ranger damage came from procs (any ranger past level 30 could tell you that very easily).</P> <P>Please sony, learn what each and every class plays like in solo, group, and raid situations so that when you push out changes it actually looks like you have a clue to what it is you are doing.</P> <P>Just to sum things up, rangers are the only class which is almost 100% useless when soloing in melee range due to are very low damage melee attacks but sony still doesnt know that I guess and continues to walk around with their head up their [Removed for Content].</P><p>Message Edited by EQII_Faealan on <span class=date_text>05-10-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:10 PM</span>

[EQII_Faeal]

<P>Forgot to touch on one thing, I want to know what SoE thinks Stream of Arrows is used for now? After heavy testing its been proven that the DPS of our auto-attack is only slightly less then the adept III version of this spell.</P> <P>Since SoE is all about reducing our stun durations I do have a suggestion for this spell. Simply change it to a stance that allows us to use all of our Ranger CAs in melee range, the duration of the stance can depend on the level of the spell. Lets say at adept III we have 12 seconds of Ranger CAs in melee range?</P>

[Orophin]

Sigh......... :<div></div>

[Dirtgirl]

<DIV>/sigh</DIV> <DIV>/hand all the plat down to twinks who dont have to do access quests anymore</DIV> <DIV>/take up apartment/house/hall decorating for an income</DIV> <DIV>/retire and hang up the bow.....</DIV>

[BSbon]

this seems kind of troublesome to me. they are nerfing cheap shot which is the best spell we have for soloing. after the big nerf they realized that we need to keep stuff at a distance so they gave us a root on a CA and now they take away the good CA we have. i'd rather give up the root which i never wanted or needed in favor of keeping cheap shot the way it is now. it's hard to believe they are nerfing almost every class because enchanters are way too gimpy. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[TofuPatty]

<div></div>Look on the bright side.1) <i>* All your tradeskill society status you have ever earned (not just inyour current society) has been converted into personal status points(this will not add status to your guild).</i>So all the long term rangers get 100 more personal status for every wholesaler task you did a year ago, awesome :p2) We aren't getting it as bad as summoners.  Yeah they could use a little toning down, but considering how well we got hit when the proc changes went into effect before some un-nerfing was done and they're taking hits to their control abilities and thier pets at the same time - seeing some of the cheering coming from of all classes rangers is distasteful.Seriously, Ranger forums are the ONLY class board with a thread cheering the incoming summoner nerfs, there are none on the wizzie/warlock/assassin boards, the other 't1' dps classes.  Really, [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]?<div></div>

[Ethyarion]

I expected most of these changes after reading the thread concerning control spells and Enchanter rebalancing.However the damage reduction on PBS and the surveil change just seems unwarranted.It seems that the solo Ranger is going to take a nasty hit here (indeed many classes will) for the sake of trying to sort out 2.

[Arhan]

<P>Just wonderful! :smileymad:  Why do they MESS with our abilities?  The <EM>only</EM> problem is the <U>fact</U> that enchanters since the initial combat changes in DoF can not do there class specific jobs.   Let them stun/mezz/stifle epics that was the problem.   Not this...  Way to make enchanters more needed.  This is quite laughable.  More and more people are going quit if these changes goes live which it will.   Take a look at the nerf bat in general in the test update.  Its just insanely stupid to change every 2-4 weeks how you play your character. </P> <P>I could LIVE with the changes if our stuns, poisons, and roots effected epic targets  but of course it wont.  This is really BS....  The Surveil change is unneeded.  What is the problem with surveil?  I pull all the time and I love that abilitiy.  As raid leader I tend to pull epics and surveil gives me time to elude the mob into the tank before getting killed and enabled the tanks to not have to run as far OOR of heals if there was a good pull position further away from the mobs spawn point...  Lovely changes! :smileymad: :smileymad: :smileymad:</P>

[Arhan]

<DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=53698" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=53698</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Kinda contradicting...</DIV>

[wvorster]

this is turning into a [Removed for Content] joke ... seriously this is a hoax? - Ranger: Thorny Trap - Duration of Root effect has been reduced. - HAS NEVER EVER WORKED ON PVP DARATHAR !- STILL DOESN'T - Sure make PBS even less worth the points it currently is - well done SOE - Offensive stance still not working ? - quick shot needs fixing - Lvl 65 Hawk is [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] - this needs looking at. In all honesty if this is the direction that SOE is going perhaps we should all be playing something else. How about fixing T7 jewlry so that we can have some resists. - acrylia is nice - but 0 resists - c`mon. I'm just drifting here... SOE are making changed that impact PVP greatly - i hope they are looking at other classes too and AA trees too . <div></div>

[LoreLady]

Doesnt bother me much, just means we have alittle harder time soloing. And that we use our root more frequently, there is a problem with many classes soloing ^^^'s and rangers being one of them. I personally have the opinion that no class should solo ^^^'s with ease, and we are one of those classes.

[Teksun]

<blockquote><hr>LoreLady wrote:Doesnt bother me much, just means we have alittle harder time soloing. And that we use our root more frequently, there is a problem with many classes soloing ^^^'s and rangers being one of them. I personally have the opinion that no class should solo ^^^'s with ease, and we are one of those classes.<hr></blockquote>I KIND OF agree with you... BUT if you are twinked out with Masters and Fabled, you ARE a ^^^ and should have no harder time than ME (no fabled 1 ad3) against a regular....<div></div>

[Mary the Prophetess]

<P>The way I see it, it isn't Rangers that SOE is 'targeting', it is solo players.  </P> <P>When I play solo, (which is practically 100% of the time), I don't HAVE an Enchanter to mezz.  I don't HAVE a Warden to root.  I don't HAVE a Templar to heal.</P> <P>I have Cheap Shot and Surveil.  I have stun poisons and Entrap.  I have poison procs and ranged attacks.  </P> <P>I need two things.  I need time, and I need position.  </P> <P>Little by little these Live Updates have chipped away at the tools I need as a solo player.</P> <P>It's very discouraging.</P>

[Sirlutt]

calm down the sky is not falling.. Sony doesnt have it in for rangers.  Its an ACROSS THE BOARD change to stuns/mezz's (any control skills) and its hitting alot of other classes ALOT more than you guys.  It wont be as bad as the patch notes make it out to be, you will adapt to it and move on.Anyone who gets upset about changes like this really needs to step back a little and look at it from the perspective of the game as a whole, not just their classes.  If you do you will see a little method to the madness, they are fixing some mechanics across the board that just seem a little whacky.  The changes to procs was the first step, then comes changes to stuns/mezz etc etc.  They are making changes to the mechan ics, not specific classes so much (summoners seem to get hit twice with the control changes and the changes to their specific DPS output, but one is just a ripple effect and the other is a much needed ballance).Basically changes are bing made to mechanics and they ripple out and affect diff classes to different extents, roll with it I think once they are done tweaking some of these mechanics and the dust settles the game will still be playable.Rangers however will still be boring, expensive and offer absoloutly nothing that any other class doesnt do better, but thats life.<div></div>

[Saihung23]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ChaosUndivided wrote:<BR> <DIV> <P>- Scout: Cheap Shot - Reduced power cost. Duration is 4s instead of 6s</P> <P>on standard or weaker opponents.</P>- Ranger: Thorny Trap - Duration of Root effect has been reduced. <P>- Predator: Point Blank Shot - Reduced stun duration, recast time</P> <P>lowered to 45s, and damage decreased.</P> <P>- Ranger: Surveil - Range lowered to 35 meters from 50 meters. (CRY!!!)<BR></P> <P>- Predator: Intoxication - Damage over time effect will now stack with</P> <P>other allies.</P> <P> </P> <P>Surveil Change sucks.</P></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I know this will sound odd being posted by me...</P> <P>Lets not lose our heads over these <STRONG><EM><U>proposed</U></EM></STRONG>  Changes.  So far nothing has hit live yet, and not everything will make it hopefully.  </P> <P>The best thing we can do is keep up communication with our ranger brethren on the test server.  These are the folks whose take on the changes matter most.  They are the ones playing with these changes.</P> <P>I am not saying anyone is wrong to be upset, I am just saying dont waste your energy fighting something that hasnt happened yet.</P> <P>Hopefully if any of the changes to our class are shown to be detrimental, they will adjust the changes.</P> <P>Saihung<BR></P>

[kidpaul]

If the suggested changes goes through I dont think it will be that big of an impact only a little annoyed that they want to change PBS since it is almost worthless to begin with. but who knows the reduced timer on it might actually make it usefull if they dont decrease the dmg to much.<div></div>

[Star]

<DIV>I myself am not to worried about these changes because I rarely solo. PBS will be useless now, but hey... I hardly use it now anyway. The Cheap Shot change makes sense from the POV that other scouts that have a lot of stuns also get that spell... but they seem to have forgotten that rangers (who need control spells to use their CAs in solo play) would be hard hit by this. Remember Lockeye, you had to add a root to make us able to solo with PBS and Cheap Shot not nerfed.... *sigh*</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We can only hope that some of this stuff won't make it through per this post by BG.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=53698#M53698" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=53698#M53698</A></DIV>

[TaleraRis]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LoreLady wrote:<BR>Doesnt bother me much, just means we have alittle harder time soloing. And that we use our root more frequently, there is a problem with many classes soloing ^^^'s and rangers being one of them. I personally have the opinion that no class should solo ^^^'s with ease, and we are one of those classes.<BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I use the root I have right now all the time, and make frequent use of Cheap Shot. Those 2 seconds mean the mob is going to wake up 2 seconds sooner, and the backstab attacks I can usually get in that mean life and death for me sometimes are going to be lessened in what I can get done.</P> <P>And I don't know who is soloing ^^^'s with ease, but it's [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] sure not me. I have problems with blue ^ sometimes. Yet another example where the top of the heap is getting us all screwed over.</P>

[Jay]

<P>Very few rangers are out there soloing even-con ^^^ Heroic mobs these days. </P> <P>I understand the game mechanics need to be balanced as a whole, and if I were able to chain-mez and stifle mobs to the point that my abilities overshadowed an enchanter's, I'd expect to have those nerfed.</P> <P>But we're scouts. How many times have you been in a group that said "Oh there's a coercer LFG and we have a spot open, but we won't bring them b/c this scout here has a 6-second stun that only works on solo mobs, so that's all the crowd control we need."</P> <P>Scouts' Cheap Shot is not invalidating the need for an enchanter. The problem is bigger than non-chanter CC abilities, but unless you want to make chanters as necessary to a group as healers or tanks, you're not going to overhaul the entire combat system. </P> <P>If I were a swashie, bruiser, or other class with real CC (and I am a bruiser, part-time), I'd expect to have my mezzes / fear / stifle nerfed. I knew this was coming, but it didn't even occur to me that Cheap Shot would get nerfed b/c of this change. Cheap Shot is a SOLO ability, it's just ridiculous that SOE is nerfing it as though it were somehow a threat to chanters. </P> <P>The enchanter classes are my favorite mages - I have one of each as alts, and several close friends play them as their mains. They are, IMO, indispensible in a good group. But I don't think even enchanters themselves would ever view a solo-only 6-second stun as an incursion on their turf. </P> <P>Surveil change sucks too. And how could PBS get any shorter?? Is the one useful CA skill in the AGI line now joins Thorny Trap, Gimpy Bird, and Stream of Arrows on the shelf of useless abilities?</P> <P>Meh. The sky is not falling, and no, SOE does not hate ranger or soloers. That's just silly. But these changes are hard to swallow nonetheless. </P>

[Errie_Tholluxe]

   Well hey, that 6 seconds is time an enchanter doesnt have any utility <span>:smileytongue:</span> Coulda swore I saw a post saying they where leaving it alone. As for surveille going to 25 m -  no more long range pull <span>:smileysad:</span> where ya got time for the tank to get ready.   All in all am looking thru the test forums and waiting to see the reactions there. IMHO ( and ya can QFE that) a LOT of the control spell changes that supposedly 'trivialize' group content did nothing more than speed up the fight, not break it. If you can kill something with a bruiser stun , or a cheap shot attack,  odds are ya coulda done it without , just woulda taken longer.   We shall see how bad it turns out to be <span>:smileyindifferent:</span><div></div>

[Co]

<P>- Ranger: Surveil - Range lowered to 35 meters from 50 meters.</P> <P> </P> <P>So this makes sense ... how?  What is the benefit of having a long range bow if you can't use this spell at its max range?</P>

[jarlaxle8]

<DIV>like others, i don't get what the reason behind this is either. ok, so chanters need some attractiveness in groups. that's all cool and i can see the logic.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>but what's that got to do with cheap shot? it's a [Removed for Content] SOLO 6 second stun. it would nerf our solo ability, and not change anything in a group setting. it'll still stun worth crap on a mob with up arrows.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and PBS. ok, reuse timer reduced, quite nice. but stun time reduced even more? what the hell? HELLO, can we have [Removed for Content] useful close range Achievment CA pls? even now, with 4 points into it, i'll be lucky if i can step back and get a bow CA off. if i lag, forget it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ok, i'm not going to throw a fit about it, the sky isn't falling and all that. but these proposed changes do irk me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>---------------------------<BR><A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=383113204" target=_self>Ryilan Nightbreeze </A><BR>---------------------------</DIV>

[Katsugen]

<P>Surveil change stinks if you ask me. There goes one of the few utilities I brought to the raid.</P> <P>- Katsugen</P>

[Carna]

I don't understand why they'd reduce PBS. As it stands it is *just* viable if you're slick. Reduce it further and it will drop into not being viable no matter how slick you are, you simply wont be able to do anything with it.... remember it was sold to Rangers as being of enough duration to get off 2 shots in.

[Star]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Corb wrote:<BR> <P>- Ranger: Surveil - Range lowered to 35 meters from 50 meters.</P> <P> </P> <P>So this makes sense ... how?  What is the benefit of having a long range bow if you can't use this spell at its max range?</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I dunno any bows who's max range is 50m. If you know of one please post a link. All of the ones I've seen are 2-35m.</P> <P>I also find it silly they're reducing the Cheap Shot duration when their beef was the ability of grps to chain stun etc mobs... but they're reducing the effectiveness of Cheap Shot on Solo mobs... makes no sense.</P>

[Star]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Carnagh wrote:<BR> I don't understand why they'd reduce PBS. As it stands it is *just* viable if you're slick. Reduce it further and it will drop into not being viable no matter how slick you are, you simply wont be able to do anything with it.... remember it was sold to Rangers as being of enough duration to get off 2 shots in.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Well has anyone looked on test? Here's hoping that it's not 2.8 sec or something usefull for all levels and the only thing that changes as you increase it is the DMG.

[Deml]

<DIV> <DIV>If they are reducing the duration of PBS they should at least make the stupid thing do MORE damage, not less, to compensate for screwing it over.  The change that worries me most though is the change to Surveil.  Why is that skill being modified?  It's been working the same way since it started, there's no problems with it and it does NOTHING to interfere with the changes they are making across the board for enchanters.</DIV></DIV>

[tooslow]

<P>This is part of the reason that I no longer play. I know that game play can change, and it should, But, it just seemed to me that there was/is no plan of direction to the game. I found myself lost after some of the LU's and I couldn't take any more. </P> <P>Only time will tell what will happen, and time does not heal all wounds. </P>

[Jowita]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <FONT color=#ffff00>jarlaxle888</FONT> wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>....what's that got to do with cheap shot? it's a [Removed for Content] SOLO 6 second stun. it would nerf our solo ability, and not change anything in a group setting. it'll still stun worth crap on a mob with up arrows.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>jwmaynar </FONT>wrote:</DIV> <DIV> <P>I also find it silly they're reducing the Cheap Shot duration when their beef was the ability of grps to chain stun etc mobs... but they're reducing the effectiveness of Cheap Shot on Solo mobs... makes no sense.</P></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>/agree completely and wholeheartedly</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Flidias on <span class=date_text>05-11-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:05 AM</span>

[Jay]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Errie_Tholluxe wrote:<BR>   Well hey, that 6 seconds is time an enchanter doesnt have any utility <SPAN>:smileytongue:</SPAN> <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>We've established that you play (or at least understand) the scout and the skills they have...so you know that Cheap Shot lasts six seconds ONLY on non-Heroic mobs without a single up-arrow. </P> <P>So if there's an enchanter along for the ride, you're probably not fighting solo mobs without any up arrows, right? </P> <P>Cheap Shot is, for all scouts, a soloing tool. It's rarely-if-ever used in groups and it doesn't even affect Epics on raids. All scouts use Cheap Shot when soloing, but rangers and assassins are arguably the most dependent on it b/c they rely on flanking, rear, ranged, and stealth attacks for the majority of their DPS. </P> <P>That's why we're a bit confused and more than a little indignant about nerfing that six-second duration - because it's a non-issue in groups, so it doesn't impact enchanters at all. The change just doesn't make logical sense.</P> <P>Now, if it's a change in principle - that nobody besides chanters should have any stuns lasting longer than X seconds, regardless of the context in which those stuns are used - well, fine, that's life. I'd just like SOE to concede that there is no logical basis for this.</P> <P>Either way, most of us will adapt and overcome, like we always have. This isn't game-breaking for any scouts, it's just an annoying batch of seemingly pointless nerfs. (Surveil still rankles - one of our few remaining useful tools that aren't duplicated by another class, and now that's taken away. What's next, Miracle Shot? No wait, I didn't say that. Nothing to see here, SOE. Move along. These are not the droids you're looking for.)</P>

[TaleraRis]

<DIV>Yeah, that's the thing that rankles me. Argue against groups chain-stunning mobs and making the encounters easy all you want. It is an impossibility for the ranger of the group to have been contributing anything more than DPS, because our stun doesn't work on the things that groups are going to be kililng. I can't speak for PBS, as I haven't bought that AP yet (and I'm wondering if I should even bother now) but Cheap Shot is useless on heroic mobs. Even the ^ mobs it only lasts a whopping TWO seconds on. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There is no conceivable reason to nerf this. I feel for enchanters not having a good role in the game. I was in that place myself in EQ Live. But this is above and beyond helping enchanters rise up to an adequate role. This is ridiculous.</DIV>

[Deml]

<DIV> <DIV>Get Point Blank Shot <STRONG>only</STRONG> because it's on the way to Ranged Crits.  This is the 2nd time they have changed the skill, and both times they have decreased it's effectiveness in some way.  Honestly, you would have to make a flawless argument to get me to consider putting anything more than 4 points into that skill now.  Just get the 4 into it you need to move down the list and max your ranged crits.</DIV></DIV>

[Jay]

<P>I agree with Ms. Wood-elf up there... those 4 points in PBS now feel like a waste, I wish I hadn't had to spend them in the first place. </P> <P>But yeah, Gwyn - for you, as a majority soloer, that Ranged Expertise skill may be very helpful. Unfortunately, PBS used to be too. And it will still be better than nothing - it's an extra attack, at least. </P>

[Gareorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TofuPatty wrote:<BR> <BR>Seriously, Ranger forums are the ONLY class board with a thread cheering the incoming summoner nerfs, there are none on the wizzie/warlock/assassin boards, the other 't1' dps classes.  Really, [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]?<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You really need to read that thread.  The general consenus is that Rangers do NOT support the incoming summoner nerfs.  Also, it was the wizzies/warlocks that not only called for the summoners to be nerfed but also called for the nerf that affects the enchanters and bards.</P> <P>I apologize for the derail, but that comment really struck a nerve.<BR></P>

[Sulas]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>ChaosUndivided wrote:<div></div><div><p>- Scout: Cheap Shot - Reduced power cost. Duration is 4s instead of 6s</p><p>on standard or weaker opponents.</p>- Ranger: Thorny Trap - Duration of Root effect has been reduced.<p>- Predator: Point Blank Shot - Reduced stun duration, recast time</p><p>lowered to 45s, and damage decreased.</p><p>- Ranger: Surveil - Range lowered to 35 meters from 50 meters. (CRY!!!)</p><p>- Predator: Intoxication - Damage over time effect will now stack with</p><p>other allies.</p><p>Surveil Change sucks.</p></div><hr></blockquote>I'm so fracking [Removed for Content] and so effing tired of this BS.  NONE of these changes are warranted.  I solo, almost exclusively, and things are hard enough as it is.  I NEED my Cheap Shot the way it is to remain viable.  I can't imagine how much it will suck if the duration is reduced.AAAAAARGG!  This is so damned frustrating and to see that PBS is to be reduced further?  Holy s#it...  Why are we even discussing changes like these?  Everything I've read suggests it's already too short, and then to see a proposed [Removed for Content] to Throny Trap... is it even working now?I'm dumbfounded.Rant off/I normally keep my s#it together and keep this 'game' in perspective, but these changes smack of incompetence and I'm getting fed up.  I'ld immerse myself in Tradeskills but they've fracked those up too.  I agree with Saihung that these changes are *proposed* but I have too much experience with SoE to know we should do anything but wait and see.It is our responsibility to raise such a hue and cry that this idiocy doesn't make it to Live.</div>

[Kelader]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LoreLady wrote:<BR>Doesnt bother me much, just means we have alittle harder time soloing. And that we use our root more frequently, there is a problem with many classes soloing ^^^'s and rangers being one of them. I personally have the opinion that no class should solo ^^^'s with ease, and we are one of those classes.<BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I guess I could use some help improving my solo play.  I have trouble with even con solos unless I have either a large area or only no aggro mobs around.  If you are taking down ^^^ mobs (by your tone I am assuming that they arn't green) would you please let me know how?</P> <P> </P> <P>Cross, 61 Ranger - Unrest</P> <P> </P>

[ARSONSIT]

<div></div>Cheap Shot needs a higher duration.You hit cheap shot and then you don't even have enough time to let off Miracle Shot or Crippling Arrow right now , after the change it will be useless.Our stuns suck in PVP , can't kill anyone but a caster unless we hit them first with our ranged attacks.<div></div><p>Message Edited by ARSONSIT on <span class=date_text>05-11-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:44 PM</span>

[Beldin_]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TaleraRis wrote: <P>And I don't know who is soloing ^^^'s with ease, but it's [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] sure not me. I have problems with blue ^ sometimes. Yet another example where the top of the heap is getting us all screwed over. <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE>Yeah .. blue ^ are really hard often .. and what i always wanted to see was that they increase the duration of cheapshot at least against non-heroic  ^-mobs a little bit so that you could at least do a stealth attack .. decrease the duration against all mobs is just really sad :smileysad:<BR>

[TaleraRis]

Yeah, I've been trying to kill those decrepit ghoul ^ mobs in SS for a quest and unless I kite them I can't kill them, and sometimes not even then because of the snake or spider adds that I get. I can't go toe to toe with these things. They hit me even in defensive like freaking nuclear bombs. A few swings and my life is in the red. But I have no tools to use against them, because in 2 seconds I could just about get behind the mob in time for it to turn around and invalidate my backstab. <div></div>

[Imlach]

<P>i ve heard they are going to make some improvements on PBS them SoE.</P> <P>it ll take 8 points to advance but as soon as you trigger it, the ranger will hit himself on the foot for 2300-6900dmg (average str 200ish) and if you still survive that (tsk tsk tsk bad ranger) you will be stunned, stiffled, knocked back and muted for 8secs...</P> <P>there... improved both in damage and duration...</P> <P>i should apply for being a Dev or sumtin *nod nod*</P> <P> </P>

[LoreLady]

Once you get vines, and snaring shot mastered.. Solo becomes very trivial, all I use root or point blank shot for is to use snaring shot again.I  have trio'd halls of fate up to sothis with myself, another ranger, and a dire. And had a blast doing it. - Using this as an example.

[jarlaxle8]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LoreLady wrote:<BR>Once you get vines, and snaring shot mastered.. Solo becomes very trivial, all I use root or point blank shot for is to use snaring shot again.<BR><BR>I  have trio'd halls of fate up to sothis with myself, another ranger, and a dire. And had a blast doing it. - Using this as an example.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>well grats to you. it seems you kite if you mainly use those skills.</P> <P>but some people, like me, don't like having to kite mobs. it shouldn't be the only means of soloing. and in the overland zones of KoS you can forget kiting. cause i don't kite, i'm dependant on stuns and roots. you know pretty well that cheap shot nerf has nothing to do with soloing heroics. it hinders our INTENDED solo ability, not soloing heroics. so stop coming along and say the nerf's ok, just because you can solo heroics through kiting.<BR></P>

[gribuz]

Ok nerfing Cheap Shot was really unnecessary, really makes soloing even more pain. Nerfing Survail ok i don't mind that a whole lot even though it was very cool to pull mobs from across the room <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Regarding Thorny Trap i think they should change that into a pure root spell that has much shorter casting time, dreaming here i guess <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><p>Message Edited by gribuz on <span class=date_text>05-12-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:41 PM</span>

[LoreLady]

Well, think how a priest, bard, or enchanter must feel when they see us get the lawnmower out and just cut dozens of mobs down to size.Every class is getting there soloability hurt, and there controll hurt. I welcome the change, no one should feel as one class is better than the other. Espessally since this game is designed in a way that allows for any class to progress solo.

[Star]

I just want to say about Cheap Shot, that you have to remember this is an all scout skill. Brigands get a lot of brig only stuns in additions to Cheap Shot, so it is logical they would reduce Cheap Shot. You would just think after the whole post LU20 thing when Lockeye realized 'Hey, rangers need more control to be effective at soloing' that he would remember that now and compensate us with some sort of ranger only control to make up for the lost 2 seconds. :smileysad:

[TaleraRis]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LoreLady wrote:<BR>Well, think how a priest, bard, or enchanter must feel when they see us get the lawnmower out and just cut dozens of mobs down to size.<BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>What lawnmower? I do decently on solo-intended mobs, but I'm not out soloing heroics. There is no lawnmower to how I play. I have to use skill, tactics and a little bit of luck to pull off some of the things I do.</P> <P>I would love to see your gear. If you're in full fabled, then yes, soloing is going to be trivial to you. If you're in handcrafted like me, then it's probably going to challenge you a bit more.<BR></P>

[Jay]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LoreLady wrote:<BR>Well, think how a priest, bard, or enchanter must feel when they see us get the lawnmower out and just cut dozens of mobs down to size.<BR><BR>Every class is getting there soloability hurt, and there controll hurt. I welcome the change, no one should feel as one class is better than the other. Espessally since this game is designed in a way that allows for any class to progress solo.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>This doesn't even make sense. You want all classes to be equally good at everything?</P> <P>Priests, bards, and enchanters can all solo. Chanters can solo quite well, in fact. Yes, we do more damage than those classes tend to... cuz we're a DPS class. We don't heal, buff, or mez, right? So we pretty much have to succeed on offense alone. A priest isn't going to mow down anything, they're going to outlast it. We can't do that.</P> <P>So maybe you're saying that soloing is harder for other classes, and too easy for us? So they should nerf our soloing skills so it's more difficult, rather than addressing the soloing problems with other classes?</P> <P>If I felt we were overpowered soloers, I'd say so and I might feel that these nerfs made logical sense. They're not gamebreaking, we'll still be able to solo, but yeah, it's yet another obstacle - and what bothers me is that they just don't make sense. Neither of our two stuns were so powerful that we were able to consistently solo Heroics or do anything outside the established perimeters of solo content.</P>

[Keredh]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jay42 wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>If I felt we were overpowered soloers, I'd say so and I might feel that these nerfs made logical sense. They're not gamebreaking, we'll still be able to solo, but yeah, it's yet another obstacle - and what bothers me is that they just don't make sense. Neither of our two stuns were so powerful that we were able to consistently solo Heroics or do anything outside the established perimeters of solo content.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>That is the point: not that we are going to be nerfed out of existence but that, in the interests of class balance, these changes do not make sense.

[Rahmn]

<P>I'm  gonna start lookin for a good 1hd slasher and a shield for soloing, might even respec to go down the wisdom line... yeah Ninja style smoke bombs!</P> <P> </P>

[Jowita]

<P>I certainly don't wish to offend anyone, but I just don't get what LoreLady is saying, or where she's coming from. If I didn't know better, I'd cry "Troll!" But I know you're not a troll, LoreLady, and I know you're just trying to contribute to the conversation, but every time I read one of your posts (in this thread), it seems like you're traveling in an entirely different direction than everyone else. It's almost as if you're talking about a different game altogether.</P> <P>Please don't take it personally. Your statements just don't make any sense to me. I still like you. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P> <P>Flid</P><p>Message Edited by Flidias on <span class=date_text>05-12-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:29 AM</span>

[Errie_Tholluxe]

Jay, twas nothing but sarcasm there, sorry ya missed it <span>:smileysad:</span>Lady, as you stated ONCE YOU GET xx skill solo may be trivial for YOU, but for a lot of rangers cheap shot is a bread and butter thing. When they solo they use it at least once in a fight, every fight. Whats good after 60 dont work in a lot of cases pre 50 even. We shall have to see when E3 is done, what kinda changes they make.<div></div>

[Jowita]

<P>"This is Pentium of Borg. Precision is futile. You will be approximated."<BR></P> <P>Errie, your sig simply rocks. Just had to get that off my chest. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P> <P>Flid</P>

[LoreLady]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Jay42 wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> LoreLady wrote:Well, think how a priest, bard, or enchanter must feel when they see us get the lawnmower out and just cut dozens of mobs down to size.Every class is getting there soloability hurt, and there controll hurt. I welcome the change, no one should feel as one class is better than the other. Espessally since this game is designed in a way that allows for any class to progress solo. <hr> </blockquote> <p>This doesn't even make sense. You want all classes to be equally good at everything?</p> <p>Priests, bards, and enchanters can all solo. Chanters can solo quite well, in fact. Yes, we do more damage than those classes tend to... cuz we're a DPS class. We don't heal, buff, or mez, right? So we pretty much have to succeed on offense alone. A priest isn't going to mow down anything, they're going to outlast it. We can't do that.</p> <p>So maybe you're saying that soloing is harder for other classes, and too easy for us? So they should nerf our soloing skills so it's more difficult, rather than addressing the soloing problems with other classes?</p> <p>If I felt we were overpowered soloers, I'd say so and I might feel that these nerfs made logical sense. They're not gamebreaking, we'll still be able to solo, but yeah, it's yet another obstacle - and what bothers me is that they just don't make sense. Neither of our two stuns were so powerful that we were able to consistently solo Heroics or do anything outside the established perimeters of solo content.</p><hr></blockquote>Look at it as the point of time + difficulty = solo ability for the class. The idea is to  keep time + difficulty roughly the same, the idea is for ballance between all classes. The 4s stun rather than 6 forces us to use rangers blade, and not enough time for  emberstrike ontop of that. It is still plenty of time for rangers,blade and to use snaring shot (if your quick). The change isent game breaking, but it does increase the challenge level.As for soloing heroics, I see little change here. I still feel I am going to be able to solo heroics fine, however I am going to have problems when I get a group of 2^^'s  and I want to take one down quick with snipershot/volly.</div><p>Message Edited by LoreLady on <span class=date_text>05-12-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:15 PM</span>

[Deml]

Too bad Eerie is a rat, and a necro on top of that, but yeah, nice sig. hehe

[Jay]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Demlar wrote:<BR> Too bad Eerie is a rat, and a necro on top of that, but yeah, nice sig. hehe<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Screw the Borg, that is one kickass new sig you're sportin there Dem!! I assume it's new, at least... I haven't seen it before, but my work blocks sigs hosted at sites like Photobucket and the like. </P>

[Errie_Tholluxe]

Yeah its new. He finally found someone he could coer..er blackmai..er talk into making it would be my guess <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span><div></div>

[Guy De Alsace]

I too cant fathom the change to the almost exclusively solo stun Cheap Shot. It just seems to make no sense at all. Why rebalance us after the over-nerf last time only to hit us yet again with another? I really cant figure out what the designers are thinking in this game, nothing ever seems to make any sense. FAR too many changes in FAR too short a time. For the love of god cant you just let us PLAY THE GAME and fix all the bugs/broken quests and other content? Enchanters are going to be wrongly ostracized now as being responsible for an across the board nerf they never asked for. <div></div>

[Deml]

<P>Yeah, it's a new sig.  Suite just finished it and sent it to me last week.  I sent the info in to have it done right after you got your sig, if that tells you how long I waited. lol  Looks awesome though IMO.</P> <P> </P> <P>As for the topic of this thread, do we have any more notes on just how bad they are boning us on test?  I know there was a post saying the update notes would not be accurate, but haven't seen anything on them since then.</P>

[Jay]

No, I don't think we've heard anything more; IIRC, they weren't making any further official pronouncements til Blackguard returned from LA this week.

[kartikeya]

<P>All I've seen is one report from a Test ranger in another thread, that I responded to:</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> burgesaj wrote:<BR>I have a 46 Ranger on Test, and I usually duo her with a Pally, but I messed around solo for a bit tonight to get a feel for the changes. These are my preliminary findings:<BR><BR> <UL> <LI>Cheap Shot is noticably reduced, but it's still doable. I was practicing against blue and white no arrows, and I had just enough to whip around, use my Pouncing Attack and Crippling Blade. I was also able to Cheap Shot, and pull off two ranged CAs if they're on fast timers. You gotta be quick, but it's doable. Note: I have a pretty good computer, fast internet, and I play on Test where there's not a lot of lag. Any lag at all would make this extremely frustrating. I also have not tried against up arrows of any con yet. <BR></LI></UL> <UL> <LI>Also, the line that includes the root, mine's called Survival of the Fittest, still roots, but I was only able to get off one CA. With a bit of practice, I might could pull off two very quick ones. Again, this is no arrow blues and whites.</LI></UL>I don't have the line with Point Blank Shot, so I can't tell you anything about that. This is just my observations after a quick half-hour of messing with it, and I'm only 46, so take this all with a grain of salt. <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>

[Deml]

<DIV>Previously they had nerfed Cheap Shot down to a 2 second stun.  A lot of us found ways to work with it and still pull off some of the same attacks/combos for it but it does take work.  I'm not happy about that change but also not too concerned with it since I raid more than anything anymore.  I will say that I realize this will hurt soloing for a lot of folks, but it will not criple it.  It means that you won't be able to do multiple backstab attacks in one stun of the target, but you can still do at least one, and when you have pbs, you can time the 2nd one after that if you're quick.  As for getting distance for ranged attacks, hit them with cheap shot as you're backing off immediately followed by root and/or snare and you should have plenty of time to get off 1-2 CA's before the mob is in melee range again.  This is all vs non-heroics btw.  Heroic or ^ mobs and you can root/snare them for the room you need.</DIV>

[Saihung23]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kartikeya wrote:<BR> <P>All I've seen is one report from a Test ranger in another thread, that I responded to:</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> burgesaj wrote:<BR>I have a 46 Ranger on Test, and I usually duo her with a Pally, but I messed around solo for a bit tonight to get a feel for the changes. These are my preliminary findings:<BR><BR> <UL> <LI>Cheap Shot is noticably reduced, but it's still doable. I was practicing against blue and white no arrows, and I had just enough to whip around, use my Pouncing Attack and Crippling Blade. I was also able to Cheap Shot, and pull off two ranged CAs if they're on fast timers. You gotta be quick, but it's doable. Note: I have a pretty good computer, fast internet, and I play on Test where there's not a lot of lag. Any lag at all would make this extremely frustrating. I also have not tried against up arrows of any con yet. <BR></LI></UL> <UL> <LI>Also, the line that includes the root, mine's called Survival of the Fittest, still roots, but I was only able to get off one CA. With a bit of practice, I might could pull off two very quick ones. Again, this is no arrow blues and whites.</LI></UL>I don't have the line with Point Blank Shot, so I can't tell you anything about that. This is just my observations after a quick half-hour of messing with it, and I'm only 46, so take this all with a grain of salt. <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Thank you so much for posting this...I just want to reiterate.</P> <P>I am not worried, I am not afraid, I am not anxiously waiting, I am almost comatose in my feelings on these proposed changes.</P> <P>I thought I remembered cheap shot being a shorter duration at one time and thought that I had worked with it at 2or 4 seconds before.  I am still logging in and out as a ranger and that is all that matters to me.</P> <P>Relax folks, Whoopie Goldberg has no eyebrows, Ru Paul has a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], and the ranger class isnt going to die.   <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Saihung</P>

[TaleraRis]

<blockquote><hr>Demlar wrote:<div>Previously they had nerfed Cheap Shot down to a 2 second stun.  A lot of us found ways to work with it and still pull off some of the same attacks/combos for it but it does take work.  I'm not happy about that change but also not too concerned with it since I raid more than anything anymore.  I will say that I realize this will hurt soloing for a lot of folks, but it will not criple it.  It means that you won't be able to do multiple backstab attacks in one stun of the target, but you can still do at least one, and when you have pbs, you can time the 2nd one after that if you're quick.  As for getting distance for ranged attacks, hit them with cheap shot as you're backing off immediately followed by root and/or snare and you should have plenty of time to get off 1-2 CA's before the mob is in melee range again.  This is all vs non-heroics btw.  Heroic or ^ mobs and you can root/snare them for the room you need.</div><hr></blockquote>Was it? I don't remember a time it wasn't 6 seconds, although when I first started at launch on my troub it was 6 seconds on anything, not just solo mobs. Or was it a short change? Could have been during a time I couldn't play much due to school. <div></div>

[decesa]

if anyone reads this post... i'm still new to EQ2 and getting my feel for the atmosphere here. do you think these nerfs come from pvp needs or are these nerfs just natural progression to for the class? i hope you can get my drift with that crappily constructed question... <div></div>

[kartikeya]

<P>I don't think the changes will cripple our soloing. I think they will just make them even more of a pain in the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. Any single up arrow mob, blue or higher, gives me problems already if I don't have room to maneuver and get away from them, and KoS is absolutely filled with single up arrow mobs and no room. </P> <P>Regardless, they are stupid changes. Stupid changes to already underpowered skills. Stupid changes to skills SOE has only just acknowledged that we need in order to solo. And yes, I will oppose any stupid change, no matter how marginal, because if it isn't big crippling nerfs it's small, unwarranted, nickel-and-dime nerfs.</P> <P>/rant off</P> <P>Anyway, as frustrating as I find this, it's not the end of the class. It's not the end of our soloing. It's just a bunch of small, stupid, unnecessary changes that [Removed for Content] me off on principle.</P>

[Kelader]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TaleraRis wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LoreLady wrote:<BR>Well, think how a priest, bard, or enchanter must feel when they see us get the lawnmower out and just cut dozens of mobs down to size.<BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>What <FONT color=#66ff00>lawnmower</FONT>? I do decently on solo-intended mobs, but I'm not out soloing heroics. There is no lawnmower to how I play. I have to use skill, tactics and a little bit of luck to pull off some of the things I do.</P> <P>I would love to see your gear. If you're in full fabled, then yes, soloing is going to be trivial to you. If you're in handcrafted like me, then it's probably going to challenge you a bit more.<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I think this must  be a level 71 spell.   Wait a second, maybe its a skill for another class.  Are they going to be introducing the gardener class in the new expansion?

[Saihung23]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> decesare wrote:<BR>if anyone reads this post...<BR><BR>i'm still new to EQ2 and getting my feel for the atmosphere here. do you think these nerfs come from pvp needs or are these nerfs just natural progression to for the class?<BR><BR>i hope you can get my drift with that crappily constructed question...<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I personally dont believe these changes are related to specifically PvE or PvP but rather both.  The way I read Lockeye's post is that this is related to chain stunning mobs to the point that they cant attack back and it trivializes encounters (PvE or PvP).</P> <P>I guess the thinking was that if you had the right combination of classes in a group you could all take turns using stuns to perma stun the mob...</P> <P>This is also being done at a time that they are trying to make Enchanters more viable for the raid and large group aspect of the game.  I dont believe that the changes to stuns/mezzes/stifles for non enchanter classes has anything to do with making Coercers and Illusionists more viable for raids.</P> <P>That is just my take, I could be wrong and I could be right.  This is based off of a few conversations I have had on this issue and what I comprehend from Lockeye's post.  If I am wrong, meh...it happens...</P> <P>I hope this helps, I think we will be perfectly fine after this LU and guess what?  If for some reason this change harms the scouts more than intended, I fully have faith in the Dev's to make an attempt quickly to bring us back in line.</P> <P>Saihung</P>