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Seth
01-14-2005, 03:26 AM
<DIV>I hear Dirge can not stack Stat song.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can put 4 stats song and augment the stat of my groupe by +150force/agy/res.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>is it normal.? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In fact stat song are the only who are usefull with mana song. The other are pretty useless. Ill be very unhappy if they go nerf(fix?) that.</DIV>

AzureDa
01-14-2005, 03:03 PM
<DIV>My gut feeling on the matter:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Troubador's basically get 2 seperate lines... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rousing Tune --> (Vhalen's)</DIV> <DIV>Raxxyl's --> (Niv's) --> Raxxyl</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- These 2 lines *should* continue stack with each other</DIV> <DIV>- Vhalen's does not combine with Rousing Tune, these seem to be working correctly</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The 2/3 Raxxyl songs all seem to work in a combined fashion; I expect this will be changed at some point in the future.  (I don't think they are group.... I think they just affect the bard and whoever you target; at least thats what groups have told me when I asked.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This will really weaken Troubadors when it happens; right now the class is very focused on buffing stats (which for a troubador, is probably appropriate), and pretty balanced.  My concern is that an isolated change will just gut the class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'd personally like to see something like:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Remove the self-stacking nature of the Raxxyl songs</DIV> <DIV>- Add addiitonal Rousing song at levels 31 and 45</DIV> <DIV>- Ensure Rousing & Raxxyl continue to stack</DIV> <DIV>- Remove the self-stacking nature of the Elise's Ditty line</DIV> <DIV>- Time on the Elise's Ditty line extended to 15 minutes</DIV> <DIV>- Time on the Manasong lines extended to 15 minutes</DIV> <DIV>- Add earlier 'mez' abilities at 36 and 22</DIV> <DIV>- Fix the Minstrel's Luck (skill enhancing) line to be more useful</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ok, that'd still hurt... but that'd leave us with 2 stat songs (down from 4), give us logical upgrades to one of the lines, and remove the really annoying different duration buff thing.  (just being able to recast them without clicking them off would help here as well.) </DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by AzureDawn on <span class=date_text>01-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:08 PM</span>

Uchiha Itac
01-25-2005, 09:13 PM
<DIV>nooooo leave it @ 4 stack. It's fine, 2 stacking would make us what? dirges?? </DIV>

Vermillio
01-26-2005, 02:52 AM
This is what makes us different than dirges, vice versa with dirges travel song and slightly higher DPS, etc etc.Troubadors are and have always been the most group friendly class with [Removed for Content] DPS since Everquest 1, and we aren't even close to half as versatile as we were in EQ, why change the buff stack issue since it is the only thing that's worthwhile for playing a troubador.-Vermillion, troubador of Antonia Bayle<p>Message Edited by Vermillionn on <span class=date_text>01-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:59 PM</span>

AzureDa
01-26-2005, 05:02 AM
<DIV>I agree that a lot of the troubadour's effectiveness currently is tied to these songs.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One thing that indicates: our other songs are very weak.  OK, think about that for a second.  You are worried that you will no longer be able to use a level 20 song instead of a level 40+ song.  Thats really a pretty sad statement at the rest of our abilities.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, looking at them.... I can't honestly say that they -should- stack; the stacking of the Raxxyl and Ditty lines -is-pretty suspicious.  Most other classes get upgrades to their abilities.... we accumulate new abilities.  The training skill (Niv) is the most obvious example, it gives you <U>another</U> song... not an upgraded song; a new song that combines with all the other songs.  Granted the other songs are pretty lack-luster, especially compared to the dirge movement song, but still...  thats a huge ability.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thats certainly enough to make me nervous.  Losing this ability would leave us pretty weak... but I think we are better off addressing it as part of a general rebalancing of the class, rather than pin the troubador class on an ability that is going to get nerfed sooner or later.</DIV><p>Message Edited by AzureDawn on <span class=date_text>01-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:24 PM</span>

Merend
01-26-2005, 06:22 AM
<blockquote><hr>Vermillionn wrote:This is what makes us different than dirges, vice versa with dirges travel song and slightly higher DPS, etc etc.Troubadors are and have always been the most group friendly class with [Removed for Content] DPS since Everquest 1, and we aren't even close to half as versatile as we were in EQ, why change the buff stack issue since it is the only thing that's worthwhile for playing a troubador.-Vermillion, troubador of Antonia Bayle<p>Message Edited by Vermillionn on <span class=date_text>01-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:59 PM</span><hr></blockquote>I dont know about later but so far through the 20's my dps hasnt been gimped by any stretch of the word. 90% of the time I'm leading my group in DPS even if I'm the lowest lvl. heck I can even be an impromptu tank if we have enough healer power (I wish my tank alts had an AE taunt half as good as archane chorus). now that truely [Removed for Content] my dps only haveing 4 or so specials that are useful if the mob is attacking me directly but I can hold agro if the healers can keep me alive (of corse they burn alot more mana on me than a real tank but cant have everything). ya our DPS dosent match some classes but the dammage isnt that bad either I'd hardly call it gimped.

FatAggressi
01-26-2005, 12:28 PM
Hey i was interested in this subject and thought i would throw in my 2cents. First off i wanna say i'm a dirge and at my lvl (34...isn't too high but getting there) i've really been wondering about the differences/similarites between Dirges and Troubs and wondering if i made a mistake choosing my class. The Harl songs (equivilant to Raxxyls) DO NOT stack with Rousing Tune and upgrades to Harl's. I knew this and was very surprised when i found out that Troubs versions stack... well most of um anyway =P. Anyway...I agree that in the spirit of what both classes are SUPPOSED to be this makes sense: Troubs are Defensive and Raise abilities of group, wheres Dirges are more focused on Offense and Lowering abilities of mobs. The problem is i don't see really a more "offensive" part of us compared to you guys. Dirges seem to have 3 advantages that stand out in my mind over Troubs: Travel Song (which when stacked w/ movement buffs is quite handy), Rez Song (good for being able to sneak to someones corpse then revive), and they have Lanet's (which if your not familiar with is a time bomb dmg atk which after 15secs does good damage ~350-500 there is no upgrade however in terms of level progression). This in my opinion doesn't compare with the +150 combat stats you can get from a Troub. This wouldn't be a problem supposedly because our debuffs counter your buffs. the problem is, however, many debuffs simply don't seem worth the conc slots they take up. Rarely have I used a debuff which you can see hinders the mob. The only one that comes to mind is Clara's, which debuffs melee resists. Granted that this is a main debuff line and i am glad for it it is almost always up if the mob can't auto resist it. I think a big part of the problem is just it being a new game and everything doesn't work as it should (debuffs not affecting, haste not really speeding you up, things not = to conc value, etc etc). Sorry about this rant i guess all i'm really trying to say is that RIGHT NOW Troubs seem to be much more valuable in a group then a dirge. I don't know about normal Troub DPS but it makes me feel kinda sad when my backstab skills hit for like 200 at adept one (and thats the best one) as opposed to the like 300+ other scout classes get. I don't think it wrong that Troubs can stack there stat abilities maybe agi part is though (about avoidence) and i don't really mind that part I just hope that at some point the classes will be more equaled out and i understand game is still young. This isn't a cry to get ya nerf cuz i know the feeling of that. I just want to see some feedback from the Troub community about what you think Dirges got on you and maybe we can bring some light onto the balance of the two classes.<p>Message Edited by FatAggression on <span class=date_text>01-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:30 PM</span>

Orki who Pos
01-26-2005, 05:07 PM
<DIV>The crushing/slashing/piercing resist debuff song, and the slow songs are huge, especially at later levels.. you should begin to feel those in the 30s iirc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Those are what compensates for the troub's stat songs.</DIV>

Srenity_F
01-27-2005, 12:36 AM
<DIV>Sylais Ravenblade,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not to put your opinion down, but the Troubador buffs (most) are group based, so what buffs we have... you get as long as you are in our group of course. At level 30 I can group buff +80 to STR, STA, and AGI. I can add another 15 or so on myself only. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I I surely know that a Troubador is well below hitting 300+ with the backstabs. At my level I have 2 backstabs, one that is grey and hits for 50ish and another that is white/yellow that hits for just over 100. Most of my attacks hit for 80 -120 and my two most powerful songs hit for 150-200. My sneak attack has hit up to 291 (my highest hit). The Troubador's DPS is "ok" but not up to par with other scout's... nor should it be. We are a group-buffing utility class. Our buffs are what we do. Our DPS is channeled thru all other melee persons in the group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My studies in another thread showed a 22% increase in Melee DPS between not-buffed and buffed (at lvl 27). If this holds true, then our buffs increase the entire group's DPS by roughly the same amount (minus casters). Add that with what a Dirge can do by debuffing the mobs into submission, a group with a Troub and a Dirge can probably exceed 40-50% increase in melee DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have only had the pleasure of grouping with one Dirge, and that group rocked! 2 Bard-types in one group is just amazing. 2 Troubadors in one group happened once too. We split up buffs between us and ended up with a very well buffed group using our entire arsenal of buffs between the two of us.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think Dirges are a great class, I fought long and hard between Dirge or Troubador when I rolled me character. I do think the Dirges need a bit more "visible" assistance to the group. Troubadors can tell everyone to look at thier stats, Dirges dont have that as they are more a mob-debuffer then a group-buffer.... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>oh no... can Troubador's be considered fluffers? (if you dont know what a fluffer is, good for you)</DIV>

FatAggressi
01-27-2005, 03:25 AM
I'm not offended in anyway. I'm glad that some i could get some feedback about both classes in general and from the other ones perspective heh...Anyway yes a Troub and Dirge in a group completely own and are amazing. About slows i've only recently started using them as the ones before arn't that good but the lvl 30 slow you can see a difference if you pay attention. I think we can both classes can agree when people are like man i'm doing better damage then usual in this group or this is a lot easier now and i'm glad i can take comfort in the fact that we bards are the ones who turn the group into a super mob destroying fighting machine.<p>Message Edited by FatAggression on <span class=date_text>01-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:26 PM</span>